Shot Shy Boro's Cruel Repeat
SAME old story: Boro created enough chances to win at Eastlands - Alves could or should have had about seven hat-tricks this season - but once again failed to take them as a keeper pulled off a wonder display and then were cruelly punished.
If you are that way inclined you can take positives: Boro played two up front, the return of Digard, a lively display by Adam Johnston and a rock solid performance by Boro's Berlin Wall, Robert Huth, plenty of attacking intent...
Whatever the positives though it was another defeat, the long winless streak is now 13 bleak games, a sorry sequence equalling a record mark set back in 1995-96 when Robbo's first season in the top flight collapsed after Christmas. It is now one goal in eight league games. Some teams above us picked up points and are inching steadily away. And there is no one game less for us to dig ourselves out of the mire.
More later...
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Anthony Vickers
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Having just watched the match, I cannot see us winning again under Southgate.
I have said before he is not a lucky manager and so it was proved today with the missed chances all falling to Alves.We still lacked fluency between defence and attack, Digard was awful. Where was Walker? Another goal was poorly conceded and we made poor use of the flanks.
I am struggling to see where the improvement is going to be made between now and the end of the season. I am sick of seeing Southgate coming out for interviews with hard luck stories and being a good loser.
Today's 'effort' has just about put the lid on it for Boro. Only the other results have given the table the look of being close at the bottom. The reality is that Boro's form is ghastly and that they are going to be relegated.
A couple of weeks ago I predicted max 36 points for Boro and even that is looking beyond them now. I just don't know how Gibson can sit there and watch GS make mistake after mistake in his selection which is costing the team so dearly.
Who was the guy playing alongside Alves? He looked like he'd be out of his depth in the Unibond. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to sign him? He made Dong Gook look like Torres. Downing's set plays continue to be a total waste. Again you ask - what on earth do they work on in training? Do they actually care? Another lousy performance.
Is it going to take relegation to see sanity finally prevail; Southgate and staff sacked, incompetent forwards shipped out, midfield lightweights moved on? It certainly seems so.
First of all I would like to congratulate the Boro players for a very entertaining afternoon. Such a shame they lost because they played so well. But City just shaded it and it was a fair result.
The game was yet another predictable defeat which is such a shame because it was another winnable game.The boys worked their socks off. There were some excellent performances by Boro players yet the two proformances we needed most were missing.
There was no leadership on the field from our no idea how to defend captain and where was the spark of know how from our manager when we needed it? Every tight game has a turning point which is normally in the last 30 mins.That is when a manager earns his money as a tactician. Or alternativly a tight game will change with a second half goal. Then a manager must show he has what it takes to be a winner.
Remember our Euro Cup run and how McLaren brought on forwards to win the game. Gareth was there, Gareth experienced it but Gareth did not learn by it. I am sorry but the substitutions today helped city not Boro so the after match interview with Southgate just confirms what I have been saying: our manager is clueless.
But please consider who could turn things around for us in this situation. I ask everyone especially Steve Gibson and Keith Lamb to consider Chris Coleman the Coventry manager. He had a very good Premiership record at Fulham, worked wonders in Spain were I watched his progress closely, and saved Coventry from religation. Yet the guy has never had big money to spend like Southgate and certainly never experienced the kind of fantastic support that Steve Gibson gives.
Managers are judged by two things: results and transfers. On both counts, GS has to be deemed a failure, especially in his 3rd season.
Sales: did well initially in clearing out some clutter. However, more lately, sales look less well-judged. Schwartzer has done well and far better than either of our keepers. Young is heading for the Champions League while his replacement keeps the Boro physio busy. At Wigan, the sale of Cattermole has proven to be a mistake. The inevitable question: does GS get the best out of players?
Puchases: not one clear success. Huth: looks good on occasion but is a perma-crock. Alves: record money flop - his goals against lower division opposition tells the story. Mido: conformed to his track record - scored a few then nothing but disruptive moaning. Aliadiere, O'Neill, Tuncay, Digard: jury's still out - look promising on occasion but mostly mediocre. Shawky, Arca: workmanlike.
Results: mediocre and deteriorating. GS's teams have struggled throughout. Weakened by poor transfers, this squad looks thin, poor quality and dispirited and relegation looks likely.
GS promised more entertainment & attacking - Boro have been drab and are the lowest scorers. They lack resilience and grit - once they go behind, don't expect a fight-back.
The restructuring of fitness training during the summer has failed because the players fade in the last 10-20 minutes - once they go behind, don't expect a fight-back.
Boro's selection of managers has to be judged suspect. Robson spent a fortune and failed miserably. McClaren had success then lost the plot. Time for the return of Venables?
It is all down to how many goals we score or how many chances we miss.
This season can be categorised with the number of glaring misses that Alves has accumulated. Another three against Manchester City, it would be interesting to know the facts on Alves strike rate to the number of chances he has failed to convert. I am sure that if we had given Viduka the same number of chances at goal we would not be languishing in second bottom place but would have been in the top half of the table.
Alves chances against Manchester City should have had us going in at half time with at least two goal and maybe even three, which would have been a great boost to moral. It is not that Boro are play poorly , we are playing some good solid football, but without the goals for improving we are doomed for the drop and can only blame the players who are not taking their chances particularly Alves , who just blast the ball goal-wards when given the opportunity's of a goal instead of picking his spot and shooting past the goal keeper.
I could not understand Southgate:s thinking once more with his taking off of Johnson who was a constant thorn in the side of City by taking on players and creating space for his colleagues. So It boils down to the fact either we start scoring goals or we go down.
Where is a win going to come from guys? Unless we change manager now and unless a change of manager then brings the customary " honeymoon " period then I think that we are already relegated.
Why have we persisted with the learn as you go Gareth Southgate? Ok, we all know that I have been against him from day one and that I have never given him a moments peace, but why oh why do we still back this loser now ?
Why do we simply not get rid of him in the hope that this will bring us salvation from the drop? WHAT THE HELL ARE WE WAITING FOR?
Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but unless I am very much mistaken Gibson and the Count just won't ever admit when they've gotten it wrong. Why ?
Bring in Jewell ASAP, or someone similar.
" Judge me this season " - Gareth Southgate.
Why hasn't he gone yet ? Why ? I just don't get it, I really don't. I'm so fed up it's unreal. Gareth please do the decent thing and hand in your notice as you're way in over your head.
TB
GS responsible again for poor tactics.
Why play 5 big slow centre halves and a holding midfielder against the fastest & smallest forward line in the premier league? It was obviously that Man City would keep the ball on the ground and attack with pace and would be almost no danger in the air.
Why buy Hoyte if we don't start with him? If Wheater could do the job then we should have spent £3m elsewhere. But but no we bought M&Es for £3ml and don't play him either. One of the best young players in Holland with a bagful of goals at the end of last season, sits on the bench for an average of 85 mins per game, comes on scores, we win and we don't play him the next week? That must be pretty demoralising for a young player, that's poor man management.
We're sitting too deep and relying on last ditch tackles. What's the point of playing Pogatez at left back ? If you analyse where the goals come from it's nearly always Pogatez not marking, or being pulled out of position or ball watching. He was never good at left back so why play him there ? The odd bone crunching tackle looks good but you can guarantee him to make a couple of positional mistakes a game and it costs us every week.
Yes Alves should have scored but he has been in the right spot each time and if not for Given would have had goals and he's the only one that looks like scoring each week. We need Stewie to start shooting again, and for our midfield to push up to help the attack but when we're playing defensive midfield players you can't expect them to do that, it's not natural. When we go forward and press as a team we look dangerous but 90% of a game we're too negative and invite pressure and we're not good enough to withstand it.
GS should stop complaining about luck, we're in a mess, we don't look like winning more than one or two games the rest of the season and the tactics are making a bad situation desperately worse.
As it stands right now the rest of the teams around us are slowly pulling away. A couple of weeks ago three points separated the bottom ten, now there are a few gaps and 8 points is the difference.
At the moment it's looking like any three of Boro, Portsmouth, West Brom, Blackburn and Stoke going down with Spurs doing their best to stick with us but those other teams all got squad reinforcements in the transfer windows and have made an effort to improve their teams. We were after 2 Championship players!
Someone once said "buy championship players and you end up playing in the championship". Right now it looks like we have a nucleus of young players good enough to do well in the Championship maybe that's what Lambie was on about when he talked about getting the team we deserve.
This was Gareth's year. "Judge me on my team on this season" because the last two we're any great shakes. Well we've judged and unfortunately it's not good enough. You were a great captain Gareth and we'd love to have you playing in the mess we're in but sadly we have gone backwards with you in charge and are now in free fall and if as you say there's enough quality in this squad then you are not showing you are capable of getting it out of them when it counts, on the pitch.
We don't care how good they are in training and really, how many lessons have these player learnt this season because at the end of each interview they've learnt another lesson.
Someone earlier commented on transfers in and out and was pretty much on the money with his comments. The only thing that we need to remember is we were all clamouring to buy Alves. No-one in this forum was saying Boro should only pay £7,8, 9m for him. "Whatever it takes" was the general consensus so in that respect we all are to blame for the price paid.
But the other thing everyone seems to forget was Lambie said we were going to pay a lot more for Wagner Love in the same window so whatever happened to that money ? It certainly wasn't spent in the summer. Having said that Steve G has probably looked at GS's buys to date and concluded that the cash might as well stay in his own pocket since he's wasted millions and millions already.
Why oh why did we not bring Martin O'Neil in when we had the chance ?
it is starting to look dire, yes, but we played really well. Given had to be at his very best, the first save wasn't poor finishing, it was some save, for lack of words.
Every week I see the reality of relegation become clearer, and have even had the crazy thought "hmmmm if we win the FA Cup, but get relegated, least we would still have Europe to keep our players and along with the parachute payments we could actually survive and get back striaght away" however I know this is probably well beyond us
A valiant defeat? Givens saves from Alves were very good but they were there to be made as were those by Jones.
The stats show a common theme of our season. The other team had nearly 60% possession, over twice as many shots, four times as many corners and scored more goals. Now stats dont tell the whole story but if you think about the balance of play, saves by Jones as well as Alves, Citeh hitting the woodwork, positions spurned by Citeh then the result was about fair. A situation where two points for one side and one for the other would be fair but the rules dont allow for that.
Selection issues still abound. Wheater shouldn't be right back. Why did we buy Hoyte, why do we pay his wages if we are going to put him on the bench. Same goes for McMahon.
Bates is a valiant lad, as is Wheater but should he start in front of Walker and O'Neill? A moot point.
Substitutions. Not convinced there was valid logic in them when chasing the game. King didnt offer much but we have to ask the question did his presence help Alves get into missing positions? Maybe Tuncay for him not Johnno. Still at least it was positive.
We are slowly slipping further into the mire. Difficult to see where the next win is coming from. Can only keep plugging away and hope Pompey keep coming back to join the pack and dont have a change in luck plus the rest struggle. Whilst in touch there is hope. I still think you will need at least a point a game to survive.
Gate thinks we need five wins and some draws to survive. 39-40 points by that calculation. Where the wins come from? Tricky.
Same old, same old....
So will we now get the same stale, often-repeated cliches from GS about how Alves "needs help with restoring his confidence" and how he "knocks them in from all angles during training everyday"...?
So maybe if we played all our remaining games on Tuesday mornings, behind closed doors and with players wearing bibs, he might score now and again?
World class striker? £12.5m worth? I don't think so - I could think of 5 or 6 strikers plying their trade in the lower leagues who would have eaten those chances for breakfast!
GS is showing the same weakness as past managers - making the mistake of gambling and paying over the odds for a player, then trying to justify things....
Southgate needs to go - and so does Alves! Maybe Afonso WILL start knocking goals in one day - but it WON'T be in the Premier league!
I watched the game yesterday and I dont know where a win is going to come from. I had a season ticket 27 years and did not get a ticket for the UEFA Cup final and got very upset with the club and dont attend games anymore. Still keep up to date with whats going on though!
Nikeboro & Boror fan in Espana, excellent posts with points well made.
I do feel some sympathy with GS over Alves -his record was impressive and the decision was made to spend the money, which at the time was not unreasonable.
Sadly Alves has consistently proved he is:
a) not upto the physical challenge of leading the line and
b) lacks the guile and the craft to score regularly.
I mean, if Bellamy had those chances that fell to Alves yesterday you cannot imagine he would have muffed all of them.
Where my sympathy for GS ends is that this much has been obvious about Alves for some time, and yet all he did eventually was ship out Mido (at least he has a physical presence on the pitch) and bring in a right old donkey, a typical January desperation signing.
Just to add further to my earlier prediction, I believe that we will finish with 35 points and have told William Hills as much. That is, 13 more points from the remaining twelve games, 9 from our home games, four from our remaining 6 away.
I just wish he'd leave now. I made the trip yesterday and there was no anger in the crowd. There was no hatred. There were just a bunch of fans who care about the club too much that it hurts to see whats happening to it.
Looking up at the clock on 70minutes, we had the ball, we were 1-0 down, we were joint bottom, and we didnt seem to care. We dont look like a team in a relegation battle and even less like one that could fight its way out of it.
At the end of the day you blame the manager. You blame the players. You blame Gibson. But the only people relegation hurts is us. The fans. Who have been there long before all of this, and long after all of this.
Gareth, please, i dont care about your reputation or whether you look like a fool if you walk. Its OUR football club. Dont be selfish. Walk. If you love this club so much, let it go while it can still be saved.
Generally it was better than Blackburn but lets face it that was dire at best.
Left back scenario has been debated on here until its boring to even raise the subject. Tayls is Championship level, Poggi is no LB and we all knew this at the end of last season, all through the Summer and all through January, so we send Grounds out on loan (not that I'm claiming he is the finished article but certainly no worse than what I am seeing).
Five central defenders on the pitch is laughable and Wheats at RB has got to be the most ridiculous tactic ever imaginable at this level. Consequently we are watching a once promising career being destroyed before our very eyes. GO'N giving away possesion, Tuncay sat on the bench, Emnes deemed not good enough (I would like to bet that Emnes would have bagged at least one of Alves chances). Marlon King's scoring achievements at this level speak for themselves but at least he makes Alves look good (OK, just reasonable).
If you keep on doing what you have always done, You'll keep on getting what you have always got!
Not going to add to the comments above - you've got it all guys.
But in conspiracy corner, did anyone watching Sky's coverage see the shots of Agnew - with his mobile comms kit on - sitting next to a decidedly miffed looking Gibbo and The Count in the stand. Agnew was animated as if trying to explain to Gibbo what was going on whilst the Owner just looked stony faced.
So what was Agnew's role? Spotter in the stand for Gate? Or was he doing a job for Gibbo?
Gutted. Distraught. Miserable. Fed up. Frustrated. Downhearted..........oh and Suicidal......and about to be relegated in a season where at times we did not look too bad and even had some of the pundits saying we were an ok team.
shows what they know. we all saw this coming, well all of us apart from the count, SG and GS that is
So much wrong it's difficult to know where to start...
On the Alves situation - we can moan all we like, but we ain't got anyone else with his skill or scoring record to take his place. We're not Spurs, we can't choose between Defoe and Keane, we've got Alves - and that's it. No other proper out-and-out strikers.
That aside, the defence and midfield selection was mystifying. GS sounded embarrassed when inevitably asked "where the hell was Walker?" - that lad must be getting his confidence shattered week in week out. To not even be on the bench?
We had chances, which is one positive. Another day we may take chances. At least we created them, unlike the Blackburn game. But these are microscopic crumbs of comfort.
I think we really need to bring in someone experienced (Curbs, El Tel) - whoever - to help GS through the next few months. He looks lost and no-one will put him out of his misery. The sad thing is I think he would feel relieved if Gibbo sacked him, the situation is clearly too much for him and he's not the type of guy to admit defeat.
It's a real shame, and it pains me to say it, but I think this year is our year. And, I know it's been said for the past 5-10 games, but if we don't get 3 points in the next home match v Wigan then we are without a shadow of a doubt going down.
What price on the Robbo-esque symmetry of a cup final place and simultaneous relegation?
How many times have you heard the phrase 'the opposition keeper played a blinder....' ?
Too often. I don't believe in such coincidences. It's all down to rank bad finishing. Our forwards shoot AT the keeper, not PAST him. That's what you get for having a defender (Steve Round) as a striking coach. I know he's gone now, but obviously no one has replaced him.
Why do Boro coach natural instincts out of players?
Anthony,
I said a while back that Alve’s was the culprit behind our doom. He is useless was my exact word, because he can only hit a ball and nothing else.
However, I think we will still see safety once we do start scoring which will come.
Your feature was cut short, because you may have been lost for words having battled behind the team for so long, despite the run of results.
It is important to keep the faith as you have stated. The Boro fans must get behind the team against Wigan and a full house would be brilliant.
I was at the match yesterday and on another day we could have won 3 or 4- 1. The fact that Given was M.O.T.M sums its up for me and is typical of the luck we've had this season.
Can't believe some of the comments on here which must be born of frustration and not reality: GS can't take the blame for a keeper having a blinder. There was no lack of effort, Digard + Huth had a belter, as did Jinky. Alves needs to put half a stone on and consult a soothsayer to lift the curse thats been put on him!
GS is here till the end of the season. No doubt he has made alot of mistakes but the reality is he ain't going, there is no obvious candidate who would want to move to Teesside for 12 games and who we could afford (Venables would want a stack of cash), and even if we did bring in someone he would be working with the same players.
So, I suggest the baying pack of wolves redirect their energy into getting behind the team and show a bit of dunkirk spirit. Keep the faith, the tide must surely turn soon
Could not disagree with any of the comments on show.
Motivation is the key isn't it? GS does not seem to have that. You're 100% right, Alves should have at least 2 goals, plus we should have won. The next 2 games in the league are a must wins, both not easy games but total commitment from the players and please don't slow the game down to a snails pace.
After reading all the comments from supporters over the last week, too much of our attention is focused on Southgate's failings whereas there is one person who seems to escape much of the criticism for the plight we are in, the chairman and sole owner of the club, Steve Gibson.
Have we put this guy on too high a pedestal where he is absolved from all blame for what is happening? Are we taken in by the national media view of him that he is an outstanding chairman who is understanding and loyal to his managers- and will 'give them time'. If we are, then we are paying a high price for this submission to his governance of the club.
He is remodelling the club on Championship lines. Gibson has been conspicuous by his silence in relation to Southgate and to our rapid decline. Where is the ambition and desire to achieve?
Looking back since he became chairman of the club why has he always gone for inexperienced managers? To preserve his authority and control? The appointment of Southgate, despite the high hopes we all had for him has sadly failed. There is no shame in failure but stubbornness and a refusal to accept responsibility that a mistake has been made is both weak and self defeating.
Like many other supporters I have poured money into the club over the years , paltry against the investment made by Gibson but no less important.The time has finally come when the blind loyalty shown towards Southgate needs to be extended to the fans regarding the future management and direction of the club.
Next season is a pre World Cup Campaign so obviously any player hoping to make it there will want to play at the highest level, hence if we go down there will be an absolute purge of alot of our players. This will put us back 10 years and thats what is so baffling about Gibson not making a change before Christmas.
Yes , we all love Gareths commitment but hes obviously lost the plot, watching the last few games there is a lot of huffing and puffing but not really enough battling especially up front. That's why the ball is in our end more often and I am comparing us to a lot of teams Ive watched both at the top and bottom. Strange goings on
Just read a report on Gareth taking responsibility and saying he will not walk!
"I am not shirking my responsibility. Taking responsibility is what I have done all my career as a captain and a manager. I don't have an issue with that. It is what I am paid to do."
Gareth should take the ultimate "responsibility" and do the decent thing and go. We appreciate his efforts as a player and club captain and he will always be revered and respected in the Boro for that but please Gareth accept the responsibilty as you say and go now for the sake of the club, the players (who have clearly lost both confidence and respect in you) and the fans who have to suffer and then listen to your "lessons learned" tripe week after week!
I don't want to see a torrent of abuse at the next home game when 5 CB's are played (3 of them out of position), a midfield in total confusion, a strikeforce that couldn't score in the Bongo and then to have to listen to a rabbit who is no longer caught in the headlamps but splattered across the dual carriageway.
I really hope that all the inevitable can be avoided because the whole mess was not of his making and I fully appreciate his brave attempt but the odds were stacked against him from the off. The time has come sadly, go with dignity and our sincere best wishes, failing that for your own sake (albeit much too late) listen to us ............ we can't all be wrong over the last few years!
I want Southgate to stay. That was a good performance yesterday. Our luck will change.
As for the tactics. We played 2 forwards away from home and had 2 wide men in Downing and Johnson that like to get forward. We went for it. We created some good chances. We deserved more from that game.
The straws to grasp are running out and the truth is that Boro are almost doomed.
There is no way a team that has gone 1/3 of the complete season without a win will suddenly start winning. I'll be surprised if they get more than about 30 points in total. Boro and WBA appear to already be thinking about a promotion push next season.
Upset as the ones who still watch them might be, most Boro fans must surely realise that they have not helped by failing to fill seats and making some atmosphere at the Riverside. Depressed players play depressing football!
How on earth you can blame the fans for this Sebastian is beyond me. The buck stops with the team and the manager. The supporters could have turned on him weeks, hell, months ago. But we've stuck with them.
Yes we created chances the likes of Defoe would have murdered but we never dominated City. Have we dominated anyone this term? We could have been been two or three down in the first 10 mins but for Jones at last showing he is up for it.
There is ultimately no substitute for skill and they should have capitalised on theirs and really punished us. Downing is about the only one who would walk into their team, and prosper I think.
I pity AA in a way, he is not up to it but I genuinely think he is trying. But he has not adjusted to EPL and probably never will. Unfortunately after releasing our only other striker for whatever reason, what option is there but to keep him on the team sheet? King looks very moderate and Tunks looks nothing like the guy at Euro 2008.
I have always liked GS for the quiet way he conducts himself, but he has been driven into a one way street called 'this way to the championship'. Why he should expect us to get five wins now from 13 games when we have that many from 25 is eternal optimism unless he knows something we don't. If he doesn't come clean with the fans they quite understandably will lose patience.
John in Aus
I have not read anything up above yet, apart from AV Comment, however, if anybody says we are UNLUCKY then I say NOT SO.
The defence did their job as best they could. Digard was not at the races most of the game. Alves I have said before and now I say for the last time, this man misses more than he will ever score. Five, (yes FIVE) chances to win the game for us. Yes, the keeper makes good saves but the keeper should not have had a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere near them.
How many games has this person cost us withhis glaring misses. Do us a favour Southgate, go and take this useless player with you.
CONTINUED:
I have now read the comments above and as usual we have a good mix. To smoggy in exile - we paid more for Alves than Spurs did for defoe, and more than they paid for Keane, so I dont understand your statement.
Alves has only scored goals in a mickey mouse league and only someone as daft as the Boro would pay that amount for him. I agree with others who wrote, the manager signed him so he has to justify playing him. He let better players go. Mido for all his moaning would have scored goals, if the manager had played him.
I am sorry to say guys we are only going one way and it is faster than a submarine diving to the bottom.
Come on Sabistian, are you for real? It is now the supporters fault for the total rubbish that we have to endure from this team? Get real please.
Supporters will always come to see good entertaining football even if not winning. We are usually playing total negative football, how we can go away from home and play with an attacking team but at home put a negative line up out is beyond me.
By the way I see MIDO limped off after 42 mins of second game, the same as he did at the Boro when he came here. At least someone else will be paying his wages.
Looking at the signs of winter outside watching Skysports News to see Tony Adams has left Pompey.
Here is a bet for you. When was the last time three teams were relegated from the premiership without changing their managers? Stoke, West Brom and ourselves look likely candidates at the moment.
I hope we dont see a vitriolic atmosphere at the next home match, it serves no purpose. Sorry, it will benefit Wigan and the other clubs around us. Spleen will not help the team.
But the club has to play its part and leading that role must be Gate. If we have players suited for their roles then play them, if not terminate their contracts. If we have right backs play one there. If we have fit central midfielders, play them there.
Fans are not stupid, they can see Wheater doesnt offer more than a physical presence at right back and that Bates is just a willing body.
I dont buy the empty seats excuse, the premiership have 90% of seats filled. Teams like Wigan can play in front of non full stadiums. 33,000 hacked off fans can depress players just as much as 25,000 can.
There is a two week gap from league action, I just hope someone is sitting down with Gate to talk through what is going on. Hopefully it isnt Crosby. And as for John's question about Agnew in the stand next to Gibbo and the Count, I wouldnt put it down to a cunning plan even if Baldrick is involved.
There again, maybe we will run out against Wigan with knotted hankies on our heads and pencils up our noses. It didnt work for Blackadder but it is a better plan than we have been using.
steve h:
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Ifs, buts and maybes. Didn't. Again. For the 13th time.
Lets be realistic. We are down. I sincerely hope Southgate resigns as soon as possible as I cannot see a way out of this mire. And I have to work in Newcastle!!
Peace
13 games without a win, 1 goal in 8 premier league games. THE FIGURES ARE THERE FOR ALL TO SEE!!!!
If this was any other club Southgate would have gone 2 - 3 games ago. Look at Pompey they are scared of relegation so they take action to prevent it. We have already accepted it that is why he is still in charge....
This cannot continue we have west ham away in the cup and that will be another defeat in my book then wigan at home. I want to give southgate the support but how long can it continue?
We had chances to score on Saturday and we are talking a matter of inches in placement its been the story of the season but then again so has being beaten.
we have won 5 games all season to ask us to win another 5 with less than half the season to go and a horrible run in is a big ask.
I am preparing for the Championship next year!
David Connor:
My point is that we have Alves and that is it. The transfer window is closed, and we can moan about whether he was the right choice, whether he was a waste of money or not - but we have NO-ONE else! So, the point is, for whatever reason, mismanagement or foolishness, we are stuck with one striker who has any kind of a decent goalscoring record.
On the AA front, I don't think it's a case of he "can't cut it" in the PL either. He looked good last season, took his goals well, and obviously had confidence. But for some reason our coaches seem to have coached everything good out of his game. He looks short on confidence - but at least he isn't hiding, he is still trying to do the business.
Who knows, against Wigan he might get a hattrick if we give him the chances. Then again, he might shank them into the North Stand...
Question: what was the biggest mistake at Boro in the past 3 years?
Steve Gibson not appointing Martin O'Neill manager when he had the chance. That was one HUGE error and we are only now seeing the results. Boro relegated and Villa in the Champions League.
I'm gutted to see the team I support look so weak and no enthusiasm. The players, manager, backroom team together with Steve Gibson and Keith Lamb should be ashamed of themselves, they are a disgrace. Shame on you all.
However, with a change of directors, players and manager i am sure the pheonix will rise once again!!!
Up the BORO.
The heartfelt comments continue to flow, to which I adhere to a lot of the emotions and opinions of the usual contributors.
Interesting points of view abound, especially Denis's take on Steve Gibson. Boro supporter from Spain, is still driving his interesting campaign for Chris Coleman, obviously a mate !
GS's insistence on playing 5 centre backs is becoming tiresome and confusing. It has already been proved that the best midfield pairing this season has been Walker and Digard. Although Digard didn't have the best of games on Saturday, Walker wasn't even included; which I personally find exasperating.
Playing Wheater at right back means that Johnson does not have a natural overlapper, which is what Hoyte does in abundance. Emnes is far better than King, proved he can score goals, but is treated like an outcast.
A lot of fans want to see GS replaced with another 'Boro through and through' candidate such as big Nige or Mogga. Personally, I think we should bring in an outsider. However, this does not include the likes of Jewell or Curbishly. My personal choice would be someone of the calibre of Martin Jol, which in this current climate is a pipedream.
Only time will tell, but it can't go on as it is. Time to act SG.....
An interesting statistic for stat fans... although GS has recently talked about tightening up at the back we have the 2nd best defensive record in the bottom 9 teams. Only Spurs have conceded fewer than us.
When you factor in the aberration of a 5-0 tonking v Chelsea the defence looks even better. Clearly, defence isn't as much of a problem as is made out. The fact that we are the lowest scoring team at home IS a problem. We are also the second lowest scoring team away from home.
So, contrary to popular belief I think the way we should look to get up the table is by attacking more! I've pretty much accepted relegation now - why not go down whilst giving a bit of much needed entertainment to soften the blow!
You never know, we might actually score more goals than the opposition, and might - just might - get 5 or more wins! Maybe King might even get a goal!
Maybe I should give up drinking before midday...
If any of us performed to an unaccetpable level 14 weeks in a row at work we would be sacked. Why is Southgate immune to this?
I can't say I was surprised that we lost against City - but from listening to the commentary on Radio 5 it sounded like a game we could have probably won if we'd been set up better.
A couple of things that was constantly picked up by Jimmy Armfield was not playing with proper fullbacks (it requires a completely different mindset than playing centreback) and the lack of movement and hold-up play of King and his poor link-up play with Alves.
Also remarked upon were the rather puzzling substitutions by Southgate - they didn't understand why King was not replaced by 'the intelligent' Tuncay at halftime - and then when Tuncay did come on he replaced Johnson and played out of position on the right.
And there is the crux of our problems - Southgate appears to have gone backwards as a manager - there is no joined up thinking when he selects a team. He solves the problem of having more height to defend set pieces by ruining the teams balance at fullback. He also doesn't know how to make substitutions to change a game.
If you're not going to play fullbacks and can't accommodate Tuncay in a creative role then why not play 3-4-1-2 - With Wheater, Huth & Pogi at the back, Downing & Johnson on the wings with O'Neil & Digard in the centre and Tuncay playing behind Alves and King/Emnes.
You could even play 3-1-4-2 with a defensive holding player (such as Bates) playing in front of the defence.
Come on Gareth if you're not walking then start thinking and play a team that has a chance of winning those five games you think we need to stay up - playing five centrebacks is not going to win games - neither is using King as a forward to hold up play and link-up with Alves.
I see Southgate is hammering the club debt again in the media. £85 million now.
It's clear for all to see what the club strategy is, although if I spell it out here it can't be printed, but every Boro fan can see what's going to happen in the close season.
As for Southgate he and his team will still be in place next season in the Championship. Southgate says we are missing Alliadiere - wrong! for nearly three seasons we having been missing a right winger which Alliadiere is not.
I can't remember the names of all the players Southgate has 'accomodated' on the right. Subsequently the team has been unbalanced but, miraculously Downing has continued to perform even when the opposition double up on him - thanks Stewie. Get yourself away from this mess in the summer.
Let's be honest, would YOU walk away from the safest job in the land? No pressure on you from your chairman, a weak, unresponsive media who spoon feed your post match questions and won't question anything (Anthony Vickers apart!) you do.
He'll never get another job; he knows that, so why not just carry on! If he does keep us up (no chance) he'll get another five year contract. If not, Cooper is then lined up. Gibson, how you can sit there and allow this to happen is disgraceful. My faith in you, sadly, is no more.
Gareth Southgate is making all the wrong noises.
He thinks the return of Ailiadiare will turn around our fortunes? He thinks that Bates functions better in central midfield than Digard, ONeil, or Arca ? He thinks that Marlon Kings style & skill deserves immediate promotion to the first team ?
He thinks that playing 4 centre halves in defence is a healthy formation? He's abandoned his pacey, mobile, counter attacking style? He thinks Tuncay is not worth a place in the dogfight we find ourselves in ?
He's incapable of getting through the day without saying "I'm not going to quit .."
He's asking to be removed can't Gibson & Lamb see that ?
I can't believe how many people on here are 'resigned to relegation'!We're not cut adrift and there are 12 games to go - over a quarter of the season. Everybody calm down!
Derek, well posted sir. I think he hits the nail firmly and squarely on the head.
All the talk about team selection, tactical nous and Southgate's weakness in key areas of man management/motivational abilities are all accurate but really just stating the obvious.
The buck however clearly stops at the person responsible for appointing him in the first place. It is baffling to most Boro fans I know, as to why Gibbo seems to be in a state of anaesthetised stupor, while the club spirals out of control.
If it is out of egotistical stubborness, I for one will never accept him as "the best chairman in football". The pundits that bestow this honourary title on him so eagerly, are not long suffering Boro fans who agonise over the self inflicted plight we find ourselves in; indeed, by such plaudits, the same media pundits simply display their open contempt for Boro fans in general.
Don't forget, Brad Jones made some good saves.
Alves hit all his shots at waist (or above) height, easy for Given . First class strikers hit shots along the deck. Southgate has stuck with this duck egg all season.
Pogo and Wheats at fullback(s)- how many times has Pogo let us down at left back - not his fault - Southgate's. Two quality players on the bench at the start O'Neil and Tuncay - blame Southgate. Marlon King has brought nothing to the party - blame Southgate. Inexperienced and duff backroom Cooper,Crosby and Agnew - blame Southgate.
Time to give Tel a Bell and see what he can do.Pay hinm a fortune for putting round pegs in round holes and we might survive.
Escaping relegation is easy.
We have 13 games to go - more than enough. We have a better squad than Stoke, WBA, Hull, Blackburn, Newcastle, Portsmouth, Bolton, Sunderland and West Ham.
The problem is they are playing their 'best' teams and we haven't got the guts or nerve to play ours.
Adams going from Pompey may provide an interesting contrast to the situation at Boro, particularly given the similarties in the people (owner, CEO and manager) and financial scenario.
Because of the FA Cup weekend (they are out and for Boro it's meaningless) this is the prime time for making a change if you weren't going to do it at the start of January or before because of the Window. It's probably the latest time too, given the rate that fixtures will start to run out.
If Pompey pick the right chap - far from guaranteed, given what has gone on there - and turn things round and Boro stick with who they've got and don't, that's one thing.
Of course, the opposite could happen. Then again, both options could fail and both succeed. But for both owners, there won't be any hiding from the impact and outcome of their choices if things go wrong.
Funny that Gate's reported comments on the club debt to The Sun is being reported as 'news', given that these numbers (in fact larger ones than this - I think £93m) were presented publicly not long ago.
It might be news if Boro have actually cleared £8m of the debt in a few weeks.
It might also be news if Gibbo was to say - and I would agree with him - that even given the financial situation, Gate should have been able to do a good deal better with the resource he has had.
After the Blackburn game I couldn't see where our next goal or win was coming from.
After watching the game versus ManCity I am greatly encouraged by the performance. Two front men and a winger on each flank was a massive increase in positivity on the previous week.I fail to see how we can expect much more than the team gave on Saturday.
Alves should have scored, but every effort was on target and Given was brilliant. Alves' efforts could hardly be called weak!
Then, to cap it all, was I the only one watching Match of the Day and wondering how some of the shots were beating other keepers?
I ask this of the leagues of more knowledgeable types, I am a particularly talentless footballer, but in all the times I have seen Alves play, why does he shoot directly at the keeper? It seems a little obvious to me, but whacking a ball at speed at a target that hasnt the time to avoid the ball will just result in a connection, this is I believe called a save?
So you football types, why does he do this? is similar to the affliction that stopped Curtis Fleming on the half way line?
"Everybody calm down!" - That certainly sounds like fighting talk Hemps (but only if you're a scouser with a seventies perm and a moustache!)
I can't see how anybody can remain calm and positive when we need to win a minimum of 5 games to stay up - especially as we haven't managed one during the last 13 games.
In addition, we've only managed one goal during the last eight games and our manager seems to think this can be rectified by playing 5 centrebacks and a rather average championship player up front who seems to have less movement than one of Redcar Red's snowmen.
I think a popular Kippling misquote sums it up: "Those who can keep their heads while all about are losing theirs, haven't realised how bad things really are".
Hemps, further up the page I said: "If you keep on doing what you have always done, You'll keep on getting what you have always got!"
Gareth keeps on repeating the same basic mistakes week in, week out and we keep getting beat, its not rocket science but obviously beyond Gareth's comprehension. Put simply that is why we are resigned to relegation and our hitherto unquestionable faith in Steve Gibson is now also on the brink as a consequence.
To make matters worse just about everyone I have spoken to couldn't give a stuff about the FA cup and Saturday's game against the Hammers. In fact the distraction and possible suspensions/injuries aren't worth the risk of contributing to losing our Prem status.
An interesting fact came to light whilst watching the match on Sky: Middlesbrough have not won a game after falling behind for 17 months. That is an appalling statistic, nearly two seasons without a fightback!
What chance have we got in the remaining games? If we concede first we may as well go home. Admittedly we did show a bit of fight on saturday but Alves' missed chances cost us dear. He is clearly not premiership quality. The chances he had he hit straight at Given, no placement, no idea.
Well, 13 to go and Mr Southgate says 5 wins should see us home...5 wins... I wish.
Werdermouth [above ] has some great formations to really get the most out of our thin squad. We need to stop playing Wheater at right back as he cant bomb on and help our right winger out.
We always seem to come up against keepers having a blinder, Given was lucky with two of Alves's stinging shots. Te rest of the team should get up and try their luck too and put some pressure on the opposition. The fear of letting one in is keeping our team too static instead of getting forward to support the forwards.
As Hemps said:
"I can't believe how many people on here are 'resigned to relegation'!We're not cut adrift and there are 12 games to go - over a quarter of the season. Everybody calm down!"
I agree - I think we played well against Man City. ALves had chances - I would be more worried about the strikers who do NOT have chances. Adam Johnson is playing nicely at right wing. So does Stewie on the left - and also Digard in middle.
So if we could finally have the same team for a few matches without injuries or suspension. But yes, please field a couple of full backs in the team - but again we don't know if Hoyte was not yet in 90 min condition.
A few positives from the game. Firstly the performance was a lot better than recent weeks. We created chances, had shots on target and generally defended well against the team with the most attacking, highest scoring home record in the country.
Secondly, two forwards did a much better job in holding the line and pushing their defence back than we have managed recently. King didn't have a shot but worked hard for Alves, 4-4-2 looks the way forwards.
Thirdly, Alves was getting into scoring positions and getting shots off, mainly off the back of the good work by Digard, who's first 15 mins looked very rusty but was at least supplying the forwards quite well.
Fourth, when Hoyte came on it instantly gave us a more attacking dimension and he bombed forwards constantly like a good full back should.
Overall away from home, not a bad performance, with good attacking intent and would have looked a lot better if Alves had put the ball to the side of the keeper, but that's what you get in an out of form, low confidence side.
Same team again but with Hoyte for visit to the Hammers. The team that started really tried, whereas Tuncay and O'Neill had no desire when they came on and it showed.
If we're going down lets attack for the rest of the season - it's our best chance of staying up, its what the fans want to see, it gives confidence to the players, and we'll at least have something good to watch so can say we tried. I don't think sacking GS now will achieve anything.
5 wins then to stay up......?
Wigan (H)
Hull (H)
Fulham (H)
Portsmouth (H)
These are the winnable games so that's four. Where do we get the other form plus a few draws to satisfy?
Bring Bernie in to show Alves how to score. He was one of the best finishers we have ever had and if he can show Alves how to score then he might yet save our season
I think those shots Alves gave would've beaten our keepers or Joe Hart
Jarko:
If Hoyte was fit enough for the bench he is fit enough to play. If not him then McMahon.
The other point about the Citeh match is that they had 60% possession, three times as many shots and corners.
Things may improve if Gate plays the right players in the right positions but he is showing all the signs of someone who doesn't know what to do.
Gate is probably here until the end of the season so calling for his head or booing him and the team is counter productive.
It is instructive how short AV's original article was and how he has not commented on the posts. I guess he is as much at a loss as the rest of us about the way forward.
Or, he may know something and is keeping quiet. Could be too busy or just fed up.
Even worse, Mrs V might have had him decorating.
**AV writes: Sunday/Monday is my busiest time of the week and a bit fed up - but you're right, if I wasn't so tied up I would be decorating.
Thers is lots of blame directed to Alves, our only striker. Lets be honest, Defoe and co would not even consider playing for the Boro, so I wouldnt even bother comparing price tags.
I think we did well getting someone of his promise to sign for us. He has shown last season he has what it takes. Is he really getting the quality service he needs week in week out? He is getting into the correct positions. He never seems to shirk responsibility. We have hardly delivered the free flowing football promised at the beginning of the season. We even seem to have taken the heart away from Tuncay. The Turks must be wondering what we have done to their hero.
Given made some good saves on Saturday. Did anyone else in a red shirt even look like scoring ? I don't think Downing / Johnson or any of the central midfielders have had a shot on target recently? The corners, dead balls were woeful on Saturday, especially with our height advantage.
There is something fundamentally wrong at the club when players choose Wigan over the Boro. I respect GS but dont think he or his team have what it takes to motivate this group of players.
Confidence, belief and support is the only think that will keep us up.
Its clear isn't it, Tony Adams who has a better record than Southgate at the moment is sacked and that was on the back of a 3-2 home defeat to Liverpool.
Steve Gibson is ordinarily a quiet guy who doesnt get involved but over the last 18 months he has been quite vocal and like one poster said earlier he is conspicuous by his absence. Steve you have to act and you have to act now. He who hesitates is lost, you have nothing to lose but so much to gain. Come Steve Gibson lets hear what you have to say.
I would love to know what Bernie S things of our situation. I have lived away from the area for many years now but have I missed something (in the haze of relegation!).
Why doesn't Bernie write anymore?
All has been said, 5 Centre halves, no goals, Downing - no goals, Midfield - no goals. No goals, no goals, no goals. Relegation is starring us in the face, even Stoke might stay up!!
We are the worst team in the league and everyone can't wait to play us because we are not far off a Derby County from last year. Absolute shambles and an insult to the fans.
**AV writes: Bernie Slaven writes exclusively in the Evening Gazette every Thursday. Unfortunately it does not currently go on-line.
Its a shame Alves is becoming the scape goat for the failings of the entire squad, the manager and the coaches. Its a team game! Alves has undoubted talent but maybe Southgate is failing to extract it, just as he is with the majority of the squad. Look at Cattermole, he's blossomed under a decent boss!
One more insipid uncommitted team display this season, win lose or draw and Southgate must walk. Theres been way too many. It suggests the players have no respect for his authority or leadership. The odd thing about the Man City game was that the players that were selected WERE committed for once - unfortunatly playing 5 centre backs is unorthodox and unlikely to win games.
It dawned on me on Saturday afternoon how horrific relegation will be for the fans and the town. Think about it. And think about how bad the backlash will be knowing that nobody had the balls to stop the rot.
AV, I know you don't like rumours... but...
Can you comment on the rumour that Gibson will not sack Gareth yet because he actually wants the club to be relegated as his plan is to then sack Gareth and the entire back room staff, offload all the high earners at the club, and rebuild everything from scratch using the £30m balloon payment he gets for the club being relegated?
The reasoning being that he hasn't got the money to sustain the club in the Premiership for another season and that this is his only viable alternative to him being forced into selling his beloved club either before or during next season.
TB
**AV writes: There are rumours and wild eyed Chinese whispers and pub talk based on mis-information, malice and mischief-making. There can be no rational strategic reason why any business would willingly slash its revenues from £60m to £15m in order to tackle debts. Down-sizing only makes any sense if you maintain the same income. Relegation would be an unmitigated financial disaster for the club in every. It is completely ludicrous to suggest it is part of a "plan".
Why would it be cheaper to sack staff after relegation? They would still be entitled to the same pay-off. Why wait until relegation to sell players? They would be worth less and some may even have release clauses in their contract. If it was about money wouldn't Boro have just sold Downing and O'Neil for £20m in January? Wouldn't they have been saying everyone is for sale rather than no one is leaving? Nothing about this suggestion stands up to even basic scrutiny.
This is one of those totally baseless 'rumours' that start because people refuse to believe the reality - in this case that the club have reined in the spending to balance the books after a decade of unsustainable spending, in the past that that a player just wants to leave and hasn't had a fight with the gaffer/an affair/been chased out of town by gangsters, or that a player is actually boringly injured rather than subject to a dummy spitting incident - and instead substitute a barely believable fictional scenario that suits their own perspective and prejudices.
File this alongside the other long list of taxi driver "swear down" cast iron certainties like the club couldn't play Mark Viduka for more than two more games because they wanted to claim the insurance money on his hip cancer.
Adams sacking could be the barometer of Gibson's decision to stick with Southgate. If Pompey go down and we stay up his decision is vindicated. Other way round and he got it wrong.
Personally I think he must have had to hold his nerve in the past to become so succesful in business so I'm backing his decision, Pompey to go down and Southgate to keep us up by the skin of his teeth!
"John Powls: But in conspiracy corner, did anyone watching Sky's coverage see the shots of Agnew...sitting next to a decidedly miffed looking Gibbo and The Count in the stand...whilst the Owner just looked stony faced...So what was Agnew's role...was he doing a job for Gibbo?".
Maybe he was just playing Fozzie Bear to their Statler and Waldorf.
"Wocka Wocka Wocka!".
Stockport Wiggy at 9.59pm (and others) - I hope you are right and we stay up by the skin of the teeth. I am aware, however, that we keep on losing the "must win games". At some stage there will simply not be enough games left, even if we suddenly started to win them all.
It is a monumental gamble. I suspect that our management simply doesn't know what to do to turn the tide (otherwise something positive would have been done before now). If you know the solution it makes no sense to take it right to the wire before applying it. It is more sensible to imagine that the way out is not known at this stage, and that we are casting arouind in the dark in the hope a solution will present itself in time - which is a worry as time is fast running out.
I hope I am wrong. It is still POSSIBLE for things to come right. We only need to get a couple of points more than two of the teams above us and we will be OK. We don't need 39,40 or 41 points to remain in the Premier League, just one more point than the 18th team (and I suspect that will be rather fewer than 40). Unfortunately it would be a brave man to state with any certainty where we might find those extra points.
At the moment it seems as though most of the teams around us are dallying around so as to keep us company, but clearly that is unlikely to remain exactly the same until the last game. Eventually some wins will be recorded by our competitors in the relegation struggle. That is why we must start to get some wins under our belts, and SOON.
Relegation will be a disaster. But the club has had relegations before and we are still here. Relegation will mean players leaving and smaller crowds next year. It will not mean that I will leave, nor I guess (without having met them in person) that John Powls, Werdermouth - love the name; is he living in Bremen? - Richard, Phil ex-Warrenby and other regular contributors here will leave.
When push comes to shove, my three year seat contract with the Boro will be honoured by me (well, I have already paid!). The club is the supporters. Does anyone out there expect, say, O'Neil to be longer at the club than me? Or even expect him to be here in September (whether or not we did stay up?).
I am not saying this to be critical of him particularly, just to make the point that for most of the players, whilst pride comes into it, and a certain amount of financial self-interest, most of them cannot have the emotional connection with the club that we, as supporters, have. If things go wrong, whether relegation or the problems arising out of some of the fabled "taxi-driver rumours" about player X, Y or Z, or not, many of the players will be away as soon as possible afterwards.
Some players, for example those who were supporters before becoming players (I would suggest people like the Venerable Wilf, Gentleman George, or Wheats, who will probably be sold by us in a few years anyway) or those who were players and then hang around in the area when their career is over (like Bernie, even if we don't always agree with him, and Higgy), may also develop the connection we have, but the majority will not. They go, leaving their mess behind and we will be left to negotiate the piles left on the floor as we make our way back to the stadium next season.
Of course the players will not expect to have to bear any blame for the debacle. It will have been someone else's fault as they negotiate contracts with the next club. A certain comparison exists here between footballers chasing the next contract and bankers chasing their bonus irrespective of performance the previous year.
Who are them mugs, here? Is it love, or madness, to bind yourself to a club despite all it does to you and despite the infidelities thrust in your face by those you used to worship? (I ask that in a rhetorical way - worship is too strong a word. I admire the ability of some players, admire the effort put in by others, and have a certain affection for some - well, Wheats is handsome in a manly "Mogga sort-of-way" and a Redcar lad after all - but probably not "worship").
At the end of the day there are good teams, middling teams and poor teams. Even middling teams can put up good performances and get good results from time to time, it's just that they cannot put together a string of consistently good results, otherwise they would themselves be in the ranks of the good teams.
Teams that cannot scrape up even one fluky, undeserved win, in 13 League games (and precious few draws for that matter), even games against fellow strugglers at the foot of the table, have to be acknowledged as very poor teams.
What makes us a very poor team? Are the players (or a sizeable proportion) very poor? Are they (or a sizeable proportion) without the character to dig deep when results have to be fought for, or not interested any more? Is player selection (either in purchasing or deciding team formations) inadequate? Is it just that there is no ability to motivate players to perform anymore? Or maybe a combination of most of these? Surely it just can't be down to bad luck?
The thing is that whatever may be the causes, and I would expect the Board to have some idea which of these it is since it has inside access which we do not, the Board should be doing something about it.
We as supporters, as customers, cannot do anything other than shout in support of the players during the games. We cannot make a tackle for them, decide team tactics or formations, or motivate a player to throw himself into the path of the ball as it hurtles towards our net.
We cannot decide purchasing policy or persuade an insecure player he really is good enough to compete in this company. It isn’t easy to convince a player’s wife (girlfriend or significant other) that people around here do not bite and that there really are nice houses, some shops and the odd good school in our neck of the woods. Hey some of us have even learned to read and write and we no longer eat our young!
I keep on feeling that, if the boat is headed towards the rocks and nobody does anything to steer it away (apart from a vague sort of hope that the tide will turn soon or that the engine will cut out and International Rescue will suddenly turn up), there is an inevitability about the shipwreck that will follow. I have a feeling feet will get wet. And we will be the ones getting out the towels to dry those feet whilst some of those responsible for it will be sunning themselves on some foreign beach in June.
OK. Rant over. This was going to be a short post, but somehow once the dam is breached all the water wants to get out at once. I have no energy left to spell catharsis. I feel better now. Time for bed.
**AV writes: Good one, Dormo. Most of our frustration as supporters at the current soul-sapping situation stems from that powerlessness and alienation.
Chris Marton:
Agnew may well have been the eponymous bear but I'm afraid that Ian Gill and I have cornered the market in Stadtler and Waldorf! Gibbo and The Count are imposters!
Dormo:
You have me right. As the brick in the road just in front of the Ayresome Park gates says - 'Boro for four generations'; my Grandad, Dad, me and my lad. In my case, fifty years of hurt (and quite a bit of joy) means I'll still be there whatever happens.
But, AV's comment has it right, particularly when those with the spade in their hands at the bottom of the hole won't stop digging.
And when the perspective of longevity tells you some of what needs doing and what happens if those things aren't addressed but you just have to watch them not being addressed.
So Tony was deemed not so Great by Pompey and Big Phil has been pushed off the Bridge in fear of relegation from the Big 4.
Gareth can consider himself extremely fortunate to still be in a job as the amazing statistic shows that since he took charge at Boro 27 managers have been sacked by Premiership clubs.
I think even if we somehow manage to avoid relegation this season there is nothing to suggest things will be any different next season - in fact we may even have a weaker team if those wanting out get their wish.
Although I believe AV successfully refuted TB's conspiracy theory that Gibson had employed Baldrick to come up with a cunning plan - however Chris Marton seems to be suggesting that Boro is been run by a bunch of muppets.
I have bad news for Forever Dormo - sadly teeth don't have skin (what does that expression mean?) but he's right that fans don't stop becoming fans because their team is relegated (and yes you right I do live in Bremen). Rather cruelly my sister also bought one of those three year seats as a birthday present for her teenage son - yes, social services have been called.
Though maybe AV is considering introducing relegation to the blog to keep it real - I just hope we receive parachute postings to soften the blow.
**AV writes: If we go down the blog will adjust to the harsh new realities and launch a promotion push based on cheaper, younger and local words and themes.
As anyone realised the dog-fight is now becoming to involve only five teams, Spurs have bought some quality players who will get the goals to keep them up. Other teams who were below us just a short time ago, have now started to draw away.
Remember it does not only mean we have to win but they also have to lose the same amount of games for us to go ahead of them. So winning five games does not guarantee anything. After watching all teams at the bottom of the league, we are amongst the worst of them this is not negativity, it is the truth.
The way Southgate is talking, it looks like no matter how good Johnson plays he will be out of the team in a couple of weeks time, this lad deserves to be in the team, as he should have been some time ago.
As for his statement "I won't walk away", he should RUN AWAY - and the sooner the better.
No point ranting on about Gate going because he aint going anywhere.
Whether he sould or not is a matter of opinion. Most on here are desperate for him to succeed as he is a nice guy and arguably a Boro legend. However that counts for 'jack' when we are nose-diving towards an uncertain future if the worst happens and possible financial meltdown.
If Gibson has called this correctly and we survive he will be shown to have gonads the size of easter eggs. All around us are losing their heads whilst we are plodding stubbornly on.
I wont slate Gibson because he has delivered 11 years I never thought I'd see as a Boro fan. I hope and pray he knows what he's doing because as calm as I am, I grow increasingly more bewildered and frustrated about some of Gates selections.
All I ask is that he plays players in position. Playing defenders in midfield etc sends out all the wrong messages to specialist midfielders and must impact on confidence. A defence consisting of Hoyte, Huth, Wheater/Pog/Riggs, midfield containing Downing, Digard, O'Neil/ Walker, attack containing Alves, Tuncay/King please. Left back, right midfield are not straight fiorward and are the only positions where some latitude may be necessary.
Its just to damned important to experiment. Five wins in thirteen games when none have been forthcoming in the previous thirteen? Not impossible but at the moment. pretty blinkin' unlikely. Still the fat lass isn't in full voice just yet!
It is a bit like the three musketeers.
I suppose Gate is Dartagnan but who plays Athos, Porthos and Aramis? I cant remember the name of the bumbling servant played by Roy Kinear but Crosby seems well suited.
The team of Gate, Gibbo, Count and Bausor are exactly that, a team. They have all bought into the vision for the club and it is unlikely they will be deflected from the chosen path.
They may well be right and be ahead of the game as the rest of the teams sell their souls to he devil. But there is a danger in having principles, as I say about my wife 'dont cut my nose off to spite your face'.
The new Premiership TV deal is even bigger so the gap will grow between haves and have nots. The sleeping giants such as Everton and Villa have already awoken from their slumbers. The same may happen to Spurs, Citeh, even Toon and the sheer financial muscle will marginalise even further clubs the size of Boro.
My concern is that the musketeers have decided what is good for us. 'The peasants are revolting', 'We know, they could do with a shower'.
As Forever Dormo and AV say, we are powerless as we watch events unfold. It is like watching Titanic or Pearl Harbour. We see the ship cruise towards the iceberg, the band are playing away and the passengers relaxing unaware that the next gin and tonic will have plenty of ice.
There is no point shouting because as the saying goes 'there is noise if no one can hear it'. We are impotent and it seems we are as much in need of education now as when MacMoses spoke the immortal words.
Ah well, lets 'enjoy' the ride because there are also happy endings to stories.
Just an observation, why is Agnew a first team coach, sitting next to the chairman during games with a microphone? It seems strange. I know Gibson has played a little football himself so one wonders is he in on the picking and choosing of the who and how we play?
**AV writes: It is common practice throughout top level football to have one of the dug-out staff in a position high above the pitch to view proceedings. It helps analysis of the shape and dynamic of the match, to spot how and where the opposition are hurting the team and how best to nullify that threat. It is sometimes but not always the manager, if only because if he is up there he can't shout instructions.
The most obvious place to sit is in one of the seats allocated to the club in the directors box. Yes, they will probably be next to the chairman, chief executive or other big wigs but the reason the management staff are there is because not only do they usually have the best view bang on the halfway line but they also usually have dedicated stairwells and easy access down to the tunnel area so the observer can get down pitchside quickly if neccessary.
The suggestion that Gibbo is in some way overseeing tactical or technical instructions is ludicrous. It is just another one of those conspiracist whispers you get during times of crisis when mundane routine aspects of the way a team operates are noticed by twitchy fans, eagerly seized on and then the signficance is distorted and elevated into evidence of something sinister.
There is a very good reason why Steve Gibson will not wield the axe. In the last two windows our net spend is NIL. We have cut our wage bill. In the same period Villa have spent £45m, Sunderland £30m, Spurs £45m in January, Man City £100m. Even the likes of West Brom Hull and Stoke have invested a lot more than us.
Steve Gibson out of financial necessity has sent his manager into fight with his hands tied behind his back. Whilst Southgate in my view has made plenty of mistakes in team selection etc. as long as he has the backing of the players there is no way that Gibson will sack him. He is only following instructions to cut costs. He has not been able to support this manager financially as he did with Robson and Mclaren.
Our 1st 13 games offered the following:
5 wins
3 draws
5 defeats
Middlesbrough 2 - 1 Tottenham
Liverpool 2 - 1 Middlesbrough
Middlesbrough 2 - 1 Stoke City
Portsmouth 2 - 1 Middlesbrough
Sunderland 2 - 0 Middlesbrough
Middlesbrough 0 - 1 West Brom
Wigan Athletic 0 - 1 Middlesbrough
Middlesbrough 0 - 5 Chelsea
Blackburn Rovers 1 - 1 Middlesbrough
Middlesbrough 2 - 0 Manchester City
Middlesbrough 1 - 1 West Ham United
Aston Villa 1 - 2 Middlesbrough
Everton 1 - 1 Middlesbrough
So if Gareth can replicate that form he can steer us out of trouble, 18 points would save us I'm sure. All he needs to do is figure out what the difference was then to now. Here's a clue......Attacking! It's amazing the correlation between attacking teams and scoring goals, I'm sure there must be a link in there somewhere (as opposed to 5 CB's).
Its a shame about Riggotts injury as he has been the most consistent player this season. Maybe now though Hoyte will be back at right back to support the winger or whoever is on the right.
Huth is immense when fit, I just hope he can put a run of games together to give us some solidity at the back.
Alright Vic, good article on our long winless runs. Although if you put the 1995/96 and 1996/97 runs together coupled with what came in between, the story is far bleaker.
After we beat West Ham in Dec '05 we proceeded to win just 7 league games until Mar '07, when we tanked Derby at the Riverside. We then lost only two games for the rest of the season (both 1-0s) but it was too little, too late.
Anyway, that long run:
Played 45, Won 7, Drawn 11, Lost 27. That's 32 points from 135 if I'm right. You think this run's bleak?
**AV writes: Looking back over the Riverside years there are so many runs of four, five, six, seven games without a win that you wonder firstly how the hell we are still in the top flight, and secondly why exactly did so many people allow their expectations to be raised so high that even mid-table is deemed not good enough.
Reading today's latest, it seems a slice of bad luck on Riggotts part is going to force GS's hand into playing at least one full back, with Wheats and the Berlin Wall in the middle.
If Hoyte isn't match fit then we have McMahon as well so I don't know why Wheats has been playing right back. Whether GS would have made the switch without Riggotts injury will perhaps be a point of discussion...Hopefully Huth will remain fit for the next 6 weeks, although history would suggest that we don't bet on that.
Although, if Riggs & Huth were both out, then we'd have to play a proper left back as well...anyone live near Huth and can give him a sly kick on the ankle?!?!
Watching the Citeh game, I don't think I managed to count to 30 seconds before Hoyte was trying to overlap Jinky on the right...I think the last time Wheats got forward was the reverse fixture against Citeh when he won the penalty. It should be a no-brainer surely?
As much as I am very worried about our league position, I have taken heart from the performance at the weekend. We created several chances against a side that has a good home record and on another day would have come home with something.
Playing for 13 0-0 draws isn't going to save us from the drop. The more chances we create, the more likely we are to score. Scoring goals wins games. It's impossible to win five games if we don't create any chances.
We're not going to have any changes in personnel (or management) before the end of the season, so its down to them to give the fans something to shout about (in a good sense!).
Jwm367t said:
"I think those shots Alves gave would've beaten our keepers or Joe Hart"
Conspiracy theory alert - is that why Alves "always scores in training"????
To all those frustrated by a lack of a result at Man City, this message comes to you from the planet Earth....
Man City are a team that have just strengthened to the tune of tens of millions, have lost five games at home this season and drawn none. The losses were to; Everton, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs. (They had two men sent off against Spurs).
They've also scored more goals at home than any other team in the league.
In other words a narrow 1-0 loss that could have been a 1-3 win had almost any other goalkeeper been in their net was not the worst result possible - even if we didn't gain any points.
We made chances, had players back from injury and suspension and played well on the counter. The running of King created additional space for Alves and on another day he could have had 3 or 4 goals. There was enough in the game to provide a little hope that we can fight our way out of this mess.
I hoped for a win but expected 0 points. You'd have to be living in a dream world to have expected a win.
Riggott being out creates a tricky problem because Wheater will have to move into the middle. When you have two fit right backs in the squad, round pegs for round holes, it is a bit of a selection poser. There must be some way round it.
Does anyone know of any out of contract centre halves to fill in at full back? Maybe we can reinstate Gordon McQueen as a player. How about bringing Grounds back, bugger he is a full back and it wouldnt do to have one of those on the pitch. Forget that. Rhys Williams. Is he a centre half?
Maybe Marlon King, M&S or Tuncay can fill in? I know what to do. Tuncay on the left wing, Downing at right back and Jinky in front.
I am really am struggling to find a way not to play a professional right back in his correct position. Any thoughts anyone?
Gareth Southgate needs goals, not more midfield players.
Why was he chasing a midfield player, when the lack of a Premiership striker sits between safety and relegation is the question? He has a bench overrun with everything barring strikers and he wanted to add to it.
What happens now if Alves suffers an injury which sidelines him for weeks? Or perhaps that could be our savior and we do an Everton. Let’s hope Jeremie Aliadiere bounces back with a bang and injects some life up front.
BR14:
Perhaps I would have been living in a dream world for expecting 3 points at Citeh, but was I in a state of altered consciousness for expecting 3 points v Blackburn? Or West Brom at home earlier this season? And how long can we go on not expecting 3 points? Wigan are pretty solid now they got that boy Cattermole on the cheap, perhaps we shouldn't expect 3 points there? Stoke away - they have good form, are we in dream world for expecting 3 points there? Portsmouth home? Bolton home?
We could have hit upon the problem here - we are so mind-blowingly poor that nobody "expects" 3 points anywhere.
AV mentions above: "why exactly did so many people allow their expectations to be raised so high that even mid-table is deemed not good enough."
Well, at the moment expectations appear to frighteningly low that we aren't expecting to beat anyone! If this attitude has passed on to some of the players, and it's hard to see why they would be so bullish about staying up, then that might explain our poor performances in the "must win" games.
IF we stay up this season I think that, contrary to AVs suggestion, it is the whole backroom team that needs overhauling as a priority before the scouting network.
A sports pyschologist (and not an easy target like Beswick) is needed to get our motivation right when the team is expected to win. A better fitness coach, attack and defence specific coaches - the full works.
One of the most ironic things about Gibbo appointing Southgate was that it would give stability in our backroom staff! Most of McClaren's cronies moved on ages ago! And how GS is expected to deliver quality football with the same coaches who coached the dross into our lot under McClaren is a mystery.
If we stay up and GS stays on (which is likely if we stay up) then Gibbo needs to scythe through that backroom and pay top money for innovative and enthusiastic coaches to work with GS. And tell him that Crosby isn't the answer!
BR14 said: "You'd have to be living in a dream world to have expected a win." - repeat every weekend till May.
Although I'm not qualified to comment on the style of play or how MFC is run, I came across this very interesting article in the Daily Telegraph today about Steve Clarke's departure from Chelsea to go to West Ham and the effect it appears to have had on both teams. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/rorysmith/blog/2009/02/10
Food for thought for all those posters calling for a change in the backroom staff/coaches etc.
Fear not Ian, I've stared long into the abyss and seen a vision.
It seems the former centre-backs known as Gate and Coops have upset the fine cosmic balance by fielding five of their kind in too many games.
So the footballing gods have decreed that the seasonal culling of centrebacks should begin - mark my words it's only a matter of weeks before Boro will be struggling to get two onto the pitch.
This will then force the ghost of Mac to once more summon onto the field the four attackers of the apocalypse - Alves, Tuncay, King and Emnes - to wreak havoc and destruction and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and thus preserving our place amongst the elite.
I grow weary, I must rest before the lottery numbers can reveal themselves.
Boronoia!!
"Wright-Philips escapes "frivolous" appeal extra game ban shock!"
Now tell me, have the FA changed their own stupid procedures, or is this another case of one law for the (very) rich? Perhaps they didn't want to upset that nice Mr Hughes, or jeopardise Lancaster Gate's diplomatic relations with the Middle East.
Spitting feathers. I am defo going to write to the FA to seek an explanation of this one. I suggest you all join me, lads and lasses.
Which best describes Boro fans?
1. Depressive (it's too upsetting...)
2. Paranoid (only our appeals are frivolous))
3. Unrealistic (Europe is still possible...)
4. Dishonest (I'm never attending again...)
5. Forgetful (I'll give it one more match...)
6. Biased (all 3 of their goals were offside)
7. Skitsoid (the glass is half full/empty...)
8. Dyslexic (see number seven)
9. Surrealistic (see the 6.56 post on here!)
10. Long suffering, romantic day-dreamers?
I've noticed the earlier season jibes about our neighbours -Sid James Pk, 'a championship team' etc - have waned since they have pulled away from us.
Is there anything we can learn from them as both were very ordinary not long ago? Well, both give it all for the full 90+ mins, and get stuck in to fightback when behind.
They both have up front men who can head a ball, and the Mackems ( what does that mean?) have two vigorous strikers who play off each other. Jones can score with his head and lay back to Cisse etc. And Cisse keeps a lot of his shots along the deck which keepers often only parry into a follow up player.
Newcastle play with mobile wingbacks who get forward a lot. In fact I'm surprised they were languishing with us till only a month or so back. Finally their current management is probably more blunt with the lads and makes it clear who is boss. But I suppose our backroom know all this and have filed it 'for future reference' when we are really in trouble.
As for not being bothered with the Cup, I agree it has taken a back seat to the league for ongoing exitement ( or agony) but success there would buy a ticket into Europe would it not.
John Aus
John Aus:
Re meaning of the term Mackem: It derives from the different way in which the word "make" is pronounced across the North-east. Three distinctive pronunciations exist according to whether the speaker is from Tyneside (Northumberland), Wearside (Durham) or Teesside - approximately anyway.
Re which centre back available to play right back now that Wheater will have to move to the middle in place of Riggott. Matthew Bates is a centre-back who played right back during his earlier spell in the first team when he competed with another centre back Andrew Davies for the role. So presumably that puts him ahead of Hoyte and McMahon in the pecking order and releases a midfield slot for Southgate's precious Arca.
Re the five games Boro must win and the 4 listed home games:
I would add Stoke away as a must avoid defeat game (by then it may be a must win game) Avoiding defeat at Bolton and/or Tottenham might also be vital.
Personally I doubt a win will come in more than 1 of those games including the home one. I doubt the club will manage 30 points and will struggle to avoid bottom place.
The King/Alves combination had its first showing on Saturday yes we missed chances but i think we created more than we have in a while. As there are few other options we should keep it going unless injury forces a change.
I just dont understand why Southgate waited for the City game to start it, surely this should have happened against Blackburn? Water under the bridge now but I think this partnership with Digard and maybe O'Neil or the Turk with overlapping backs not cbs in place.
Jiffy
I must admit I spotted my blunder about moving Bates over to right back. In my defence he is already out of position in centre midfield so square pegging to square pegging doesnt really count.
Notice some debate about the number of points required to stay up. As safety currently is about a point a game I cant see it being less than 38/39. If Pompey get a dead cat bounce from a new manager, Blackburn continue to improve under fat Sam and the rest stay as they are, then that target may well increase to 40 or more points.
It will be a roller coaster ride for many clubs and fans, at the moment we need to at least stay in the mix. I dont fancy getting to the last four games still in the bottom three because they are tricky fixtures. Take that back, they are all tricky fixtures.
I will watch tonight and hope Downing comes back fit, I dont wish ill on anyone but a Liverpool without Gerrard and Torres wouldnt go amiss.
Thanks Jiffy, too long away from 'home' I guess. But my heart's still there. Even if we're in Div 4 ( make that 2).
John Aus
The buck stops at the top. Mr Gibson was partly instrumental in saving the club after liquidation and built the club up mainly on hype and big name signings. Unfortunately he has failed to match his ambitions and the fans expectations by appointing a top class manager,or even a good one.
Before GS the other two managers were mainly clueless but Mr Gibson has described them as intelligent.To many people this only shows a lack of judgement on behalf of the club on appointments GS being the latest.
It defies belief that the club did not get Martin Oneill when he was available. I don't think he has spent as much as GS(£55m) and now look at Villa.
A lot of the money Gibson's manager's have spent over the years has been wasted eg Gazza, Mendietta, Boksic, Viduka etc and the club still dont learn by their mistakes the latest one being Mido.
The club is now at a crossroads and if by some miracle we do survive to save the club stagnating Mr Gibson should seiously think of standing down and give someone else a chance even if it means the club going public ie PLC.The only alternative is to put up with more of the boring survival football which has epitomised Mr Gibsons reign.
**AV writes: How much money do you think a public floatation would bring in? Football clubs on the stock market have been a disaster. The bottom line is there is NO white knight coming to save Boro with bulging pockets and a magic chequebook. We must finance ourselves and bring the debt under control either by bringing in more money from somewhere or spending less.
I am sure I reflect many fans views and wish Joe Kinnear a speedy recovery, needing a heart bypass operation puts flirting with relegation into perspective.
Well said AV in response to Mally P.
It isn't going to happen. Why would or should it? I'm sure that Steve Gibson, Keith Lamb, Gareth Southgate, Bryan Robson and even Steve McClaren (well, perhaps not him) would admit to mistakes in their decision making over the years, same as all of us. Even Fergy, Arson and the Russian billionaire have made mistakes in transfer dealings etc.
As such, GS has made mistakes in the transfer market and current results prove it, although this is not the whole story and in a number of respects GS has gone about doing what the executive demanded because of the worsening finacial situation. Of course, relegation would be catastrophic and the club could take years to recover.
Like most, I get really down and depressed with the current situation and I even thought about not watching the Citeh game on Sky, but of course I did.
For what it's worth I do think it likely now that Boro will go down, but I live in hope.
Finally, can you AV or anyone please explain the truth in repect of Martin O'Neil, was there ever a real chance that he would join the Boro. Whether it was the case or not and with respect to our club, he did make the right choice for him at this stage of his career, didnt he?
**AV writes: Yes, there was a chance of O'Neill joining. He was interested and came for talks and the long term project was outlined. There were some sticking points (and not all about his bringing staff in, that is 'truth' that has grown up subsequently) but ultimately he decided the challenge of building a team based on youth within the constraits of Boro's budget was not what he wanted at that stage of his career.
He could pick and chose his next job and decided he wanted a crack at a big club with a big budget and the short/medium term aim of breaking into the top four. You can't blame him for that.
I note very little mention of the forthcoming FA Cup tie with West Ham in the numerous posts above. Does anyone feel any interest in this game? No, neither do I.
But wait a minute.....maybe GS could use such a game of no consequence to go a little crazy in order to experiment. He could very well choose this game to field a team of balance, a team where the players are playing in their rightful positions, a team of players all playing with heart (O’Neil and Tuncay please note)
Just a thought
Then it WOULD be interesting
I think a lot of the "fans" posting on here are losing perspective with regards to Steve Gibson. If it wasn't for him the club would probably not exist at all. For me, Boro in the Championship is better than no Boro at all, and Steve Gibson is and always will be our saviour and should never have a bad word said about him.
As far as i am concerned SG is not a good director. If he was GS would have been gone long ago. The reason he chose GS was for cheapness and in this life you get what you pay for.
Boro cannot afford to get relegated. The fans will abandon the Riverside like a sinking ship. If SG has not got the cash anymore,he should either bring someone in who has got money or sell the club.
I don't understand this loyalty from the fans to SG. Yes he saved the club,but life moves on . What use is he now? In the premiership you need money, simple as that. I think the players on paper are ok, but GS is no motivator. If Martin O,Neil was running the team,there would be a major difference in results.
Will 14.02.2009 be a valentines massacre for Boro,or will this be the game the club turn it around for the best against WHU in the FA CUP? Will SG sack GS if we lose? An interesting weekend.
There are a lot of short memories amongst the members of this blog.
Continued comments about Steve Gibson and his choice of managers seem to suggest he began his tenure at the helm with the arrival of Bryan Robson. Not so - he was to all intents and purposes in charge from 1886 - so presided over the demise of Rioch and Todd and the appointment of Lenny Lawrence.
The comments also suggest we are now at the lowest point in those years. Again i
would suggest otherwise. Even without 1886 Steve Gibson has already led us back from the brink of extinction during his reign (possibly twice) having presided over the decisions that led to those previous flirts with disaster.
I refer to the time when Lenny Lawrence's side had been relegated and were
plunging down the 2nd tier with crowds down to 6000. Alongside that was the financial blow that Ayresome Park was a derelict and a new stadium would be required and Lawrence was not the man to lead the team through that situation - you cant fund a new stadium on 6000 crowds - hence the arrival of Bryan Robson and the Riverside.
One could argue that at the time of Bruce Rioch's departure and the club facing
possible relegation to the 3rd tier that the club were not far from the brink of
extinction yet again. Todd stopped the rot and did some decent rebuilding with a
run to the playoffs the following year.
But his departure was down to his presenting the board with a shopping list he
considered necessary to go that bit further. Exactly what O'Neill, Allardyce, Curbishley - any of the "experienced" managers people advocate as those who should have been given the job in place of Southgate would have done or would do now.
Relegation normally is not a disaster - even Robson kept enough of a side
together and made a successful investment in strikers late that season to get
the club back up in one go. It would be a very brave man to suggest that the
current squad would hold together or could be improved enough for next
season to mount a promotion challenge in the Championship should relegation
occur this season.
Many of the current non-performers ( and I exclude the local lads from that category) know that they don't face relegation but can easily move across to other strugglers and to the newly promoted sides and continue on in the Premiership. What will remain after their departure could well find the Championship as much a battleground as Rioch's and Lawrence's side did.
How would the club fare now if attendances drop bel;ow that 10000 figure in the
Championship.In the present economic situation could Gibson fund another rescue like 1886? I doubt it.
Gibson's current economic model of developing our talented academy and
recruiting other young players from around the world is seriously flawed. It
relies on the coaching staff being capable of bringing those lads up to
Premiership standard and I would suggest that there is only one man in football
with that kind of success record - Dario O'Gradi at Crewe.
Other than Downing all of our juniors have developed to the point where they can
do a decent job at Championship level and many of those have had to go to clubs
on loan for those talents to develop. Even the much-vaunted wheater and Taylor
have struggled second season. Unless we have a major improvement in our coaching staff we will consistently fail to instil our young players with the necessary qualities to take that extra step up to Premiership standard.
Rioch did a decent job with his young charges as several had outstanding careers
elsewhere but no one since has gone anywhere near emulating his achievements with our young graduates.
Under these circumstances Gibson's business model is doomed to inevitable
failure - even if survival were achieved this season next year will be more of
the same. Under Robson and McClaren many new fans were added to the diehards that were there in 86 and/or Lenny Lawrence's 6000. Many have already fallen by the wayside. Will enough stay with Boro if the club go down this year and don't look like an immediate return?
Phew! we can all relax now and stop worrying about going down - according to the Gazette it's now official 'Relegation is not an option'.
If only we'd been told earlier I could have avoided all those sleepless nights and coming to terms with those grey hairs.
Wait a minute - it's seems this theory is all based on Wheats not wanting to miss his nights out with 'two fat ladies' in Redcar. Anyway, he made this proclamation whilst attending a glitzy function - probably attended by many of the country's top footballers - where he also said he was confident that Boro would lift the FA Cup.
Speaking at a Cleveland fire brigade event endorsing a ban on chip pans, Wheater added: "I don’t see why we can’t go all the way in the cup and what an achievement that would be."
OK, maybe not as glamorous as I first thought, apparently Ronaldo couldn't make it due to having too many chips on his shoulder. Oh well, at least he's got a cunning plan to avoid relegation "We just need to start sticking our chances away and I think we will be fine" - Southgate are you listening!
Seriously, I don't think I can bear to listen to another Boro player, however nice or well intentioned, offering his thoughts on how things are going to turn around soon - just do the talking on the pitch please!
Well done Jonno at England U-21 level. I think Adam has finally arrived!
As Boro's midfield has been the problem all season - and right wing for years - let's play Jonno there regularly. As he has done recently. And as we need a talker - a leader in the midfield area - I would go for Josh Walker. An England Youth skipper and natural talker.
So how about the following against the Hammers:
Alves & King
Downing, Digard, Walker, A Johnson
Pogatetz, Huth, Wheater, Hoyte
Jones
Subs: O'Neal, Bates, McMahon, Turnbull, Tuncay, Emnes
Pat Mc,
Surely you don't mean Alves and King up front, Digard and Tuncay in the middle with Stewy and Jinky on the wings then we could have Hoyte at RB and Wheats and Huth or Pogi in the middle?
That would only leave the LB slot after Jones or Turnbull fill in between the sticks. I think GS may as well go all the way then and maybe play Arca at LB where he originally signed him for. Who knows he may be able to time his tackles, distribute the ball from the back and provide link up play between Stewy and Tuncay. Nah it'll never happen, lets face it we might win convincingly and then what? I mean, we might even recall Grounds for LB but he keeps scoring goals so what use is that?
Much better to get Seb Hines brought into Midfield, Bates at CB alongside Huth, Pogi at RB (after his horror show at LB) and put Wheats at LB (to ensure he never gets near and England cap again). Then we could have M&S in goal, GON left wing, Stewy on the right, Arca up front to partner Alves with King in midfield alongside Hines. See thats better, no hope no silly expectations and up to page 87 out of 100 in the Howard Wilkinson coaching manual.
Pat Mc,
Surely you don't mean Alves and King up front, Digard and Tuncay in the middle with Stewy and Jinky on the wings then we could have Hoyte at RB and Wheats and Huth or Pogi in the middle. That would only leave the LB slot after Jones or Turnbull fill in between the sticks. I think GS may as well go all the way then and maybe play Arca at LB where he originally signed him for. Who knows he may be able to time his tackles, distribute the ball from the back and provide link up play between Stewy and Tuncay. Nah it'll never happen, lets face it we might win convincingly and then what? I mean we might even recall Grounds for LB but he keeps scoring goals so what use is that to us?
Much better to get Seb Hines brought into Midfield, Bates at CB alongside Huth, Pogi at RB (after his horror show at LB) and put Wheats at LB (to ensure he never gets near and England cap again). Then we could have M&S in goal, GON left wing, Stewy on the right, Arca up front to partner Alves with King in midfield alongside Hines. See thats better, no hope no silly expectations and up to page 87 out of 100 in the Howard Wilkinson coaching manual.
"We must finance ourselves and bring the debt under control either by bringing in more money from somewhere or spending less." said AV
Or getting a much, much better return on the investments that the manager makes. If we appoint incompetent, inexperienced managers to invest what limited resources we have, we only have ourselves to blame when the gamble blows up in our faces.
The current management are also guilty of wasting the potential that our fantastic academy produces. Wheater's progress has foundered this season, Taylor a huge disappointment, Adam Johnson a great prospect, destined I fear, for pastures new at a "bigger" club, Morrison progressing at W.B.A. and Cattermole doing a sterling job in the mighty Wigan's engine room. And what next for Josh Walker?
Mention of the mighty Wigan makes me ponder as to what you think their fan base's level of expectation should be pitched at?
**AV writes: I agree completely that the future rests on spending money wisely, making sure that signings are better than what we have, that they can be developed and appreciate in value and that when they are sold it is at a profit. To make the new model work we must have the best scouting network and coach set-up possible.
And Steve Gibson is and always will be our saviour and should never have a bad word said about him.
Craig, that is a very unhealthy state of affairs - naive and patronising in the extreme.
The cautionary tale of the "King's New Clothes" is brought to mind by your fawning sycophancy. Nobody, in any walk of life is beyond criticism because everybody makes mistakes; yes even Gibbo.
To Forever Dormo's list of what makes a Boro fan I would add:
1) compulsive whinging
2) lack of gratitude
3) willingness to swallow any rumour as truth
4) tendency to squeal if the pressure is on
5) weakness in the face of adversity
6) moral cowardice
I am so glad that I don't still live within the 'cloud of nagativity' that grips Teesside. I despair of the new breed of Boro fans who seem to have no backbone, no sense of perspective and no capacity to accept the realities of our finances.
There are 13 games to go yet there are people on here who are not only already resigned to relegation themselves but also take umbrage when the players don't join them in their communal capitulation.
After a century of complete mediocrity Steve Gibson organised the consortium that saved the club and his determination and willingness to bankroll the club have delivered cup finals, world superstars, a new stadium, a trophy and Europe.
Now after he has funded £100m of signings the guy who best knows the books decides we need to rein in the spending for a few years and a bunch of spineless ingrates are calling for his head. I am embarrassed for them and hope he does not read this.
Some people are in such a hurry to believe every taxi driver rumour they hear that knocks the club, the players and chairman no matter how stupid or transparent.
Supporting a football team is part of your birth right and your identity. It is a duty and a privilege but it does not come with any guarantees. You can't complain to trading standards if Boro start losing. Especially when you don't fulfill your side of the contract.
STOP WHINGING! START SUPPORTING!
"To make the new model work we must have the best scouting network and coach set-up possible."
I concur on that entirely A.V. However, just allow me one hair splitting qualification.
I think you have the cart before the horse because it's no good having talented talent spotters if the result of their efforts wither on the vine, instead of flourishing to their fruitful fullness because of the poor, sterile and infertile soil of a failing management and coaching organisation.
I don't understand all the critics on Boro and Mr Gigson in particulat. Have a look at this article about Portsmouth: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/7879229.stm
I think Boro are miles away from the South Coast Club now. Let's be realistic!
Up the Boro!
Tees Exile you have hit the nail on the head.
Lets face it we get the team we deserve, being somebody who lived in the Boro for 26 years and has now lived outside for 19, I get to see a game live every couple of years. Negativey and booing is disgraceful at the matches, does nothing for the players confidence and we should all be ashamed.
Anyway, who cares if we go to the championship and do a Birmingham, bring back Rhys Williams, Grounds, promote Porritt, play Emnes every week, get Mogga for Manager and Rioch as his assistant. Now wouldn't that be good.
UP THE BORO, THE BORO's GOING UP
*applaudes Tees Exile*
I was under the impression King was cup-tied?
After reading his latest miscreant goings on, he might not be playing for us again if he is found guilty. Can only happen to Boro....
Keenog in Indiana:
"Now wouldn't that be good."
No. I do agree about negativity and booing of players during games. The team need our support.
Expecting people not to express their feelings at the end of yet another debacle is, I think, (as one who never boos at games) asking a bit too much.
It's been announced that Marlon King has been charged with Actual Bodily Harm and sexual assault and is due to appear in court on 25 February.
OK with the usual disclaimer, innocent until proved guilty, if this was known about before we took him on loan it seems the deal was rather more desperate than it initally appeared.
I guess if found guilty his contract will be terminated but it won't help us on the pitch.
I think its unfair to say Alves could have had 7 hat tricks this season - in reality he hasnt missed that many chances. We havent been creating any for him (its also fair to say he hasnt created any for himself!)
It was good to see him getting involved against Man City, and I think he was a bit disheartened a little too early by Given, he looked like he knew he wouldnt score on each one on one.
Hopefully its a sign of the right direction. Put it this way, he is ten times the player that nice guy Marlon King could ever dream of being.
*I'm with Tees Exile as well*
C'mon Boro
Werdermouth,
So you're sick of hearing what the Boro players have to say? Well I suggest you stop reading the papers and the web then, problem solved.
You seem to overlook the fact that the players don't go looking for journalists to talk to, its the other way round. So if you want to blame anyone for what you read is being said blame the journalists who in this area of 24/7 media are constantly after an interview/soundbite/quote.
What did you want to hear from Wheater, 'yes, Mr. Journo if you want my opinion we're destined to be relegated and we'll be out of the FA cup come 5pm Saturday'?
Get real!
Well said, Tees Exile. About time someone on this blog talked sense.
Chris from Beverley
King certainly played for Hull in this year's FA Cup so my assumption, like yours, is that he's Cup tied for Boro.
Marlon King should be sent back to Wigan immediately. Why oh why did we get him in, and why oh why is ahead of Tuncay (please don't give me the Tuncay hasnt been good of late - a Tuncay at 80% is better than Marlon's 'efforts')
We knew this case was happening and we knew what the outcome would more than likely be. It was a panic buy of the highest proportions. He was not good enough for Hull and he is not good enough for WIgan. If anything the whole affair shows how much we have gone backwards in the last year.
Apart from anything else I point to 49 offsides this season (yes, 49 - more than any other player in the premiership, despite only starting a handful of games) against five goals - he is not the kind of PERSON that we should be looking to bring in.
Plenty of rhetoric about Alves and his missed chances last week. Just a thought but is there anyone else out of the eleven who could possibly lend a hand at goal scoring? After all it is a team effort and other players on our team are allowed to shoot at goal....aren't they? Howay lads, chip in.
I agree i made a mistake in mentioning PLC'S what i meant was a take over of the club which in the present climate is also unlikely.The big question is that even if there was an offer of extra funds from somewhere or someone would Mr Gibson consider it given the fact that the benefactors would want a say in the running of the club?Don't forget that when Mr Gibson was made chairman of the club the first thing he did was sack the board!!,so in a matter of fact he became a dictator.You could say he has had moderate success ie the cup runs,whereas in the league(which we pay our season tickets for )the entertainment levels have been very limited and this is why 10,000 fans have deserted the club.Mr Gibson himself has not helped by his own statements ie "I don't know what the fans are complaining about i am enjoying the football"in reply to the fans being up in arms about the dire negative football in Robbo's last three years.Also he upset many fans by getting rid of Juninho saying"Ihave let Juninho go because he is past his best"then replaced him with Mendietta who couldn't lace his boots and was a massive waste of space and money.The reverance by some of the fans for Mr Gibson is way over the top.As for the comments that he saved the club it is not true,it was a consortium that saved the club,also i believe he got massive financial help to build the new ground.We all want the best for our football club but lets be sensible about it,the club is not all about Mr Gibson lets get back to having an old fashioned board and get some democratic decisions on the direction of the club whether Mr Gibson would agree with this would be doubtful given his track record,but i believe many fans would be very happy with a change of direction.
Tees Exile, the fans have completely fulfilled their side of the contract. We have stood and encouraged them, been hoarse for 3 days afterwards recovering from shouting "Come on Boro".
The "breach of contract" this season comes from what we have had to endure on the pitch. No fight, no spirit, no LB for years now, Zonal marking, young prospering talent sold off with less talented individuals coming in, experience gone, players played out of position, no money but £3M spent on M&S, conceding in the last 10 minutes, Mido starts scoring so gets benched then Alves finally starts scoring and gets benched, oh and the latest goings on (well publicised on Wiki before we signed him) with King.
I could go on and on and yet through all this we have stood by "our Boro" this season. Any contractual obligations are now long overdue for payment on the pitch not the terraces!
Nigel, no I don't blame the journalists but I'm just grateful that you're not one as you've misquoted me in your first paragraph and then tried to pretend that you know what I'm thinking in your third - then again perhaps you are already halfway to becoming a tabloid reporter on that basis!
So forgive me for not buying into the spin that seems to arrive on a daily basis from the next Boro player who's left holding the mike. Like I said in my post, I'm sure it is well intentioned but after over two months of similar comments it's long since lost any credibility.
Today we had Jinky telling us that Boro had turned the corner after we'd drawn 0-0 with Blackburn and lost 1-0 at City - that only sounds like we drove over a mini-roundabout to me.
I know footballers are prone to pulling out a cliche in interviews to avoid the odd hospital pass but it takes an eternal optimist to think we're on course to lift the FA Cup after narrowly edging past a non-league side and a half decent Championship side fielding a weakened team. We're now only at the 5th round away to an in-form West Ham and I can't remember last time we won there - but we live in hope!
To be fair some parts of the Wheater's interview were quite interesting - especially about his thoughts on playing out of position - but I reserve the right to cringe when I hear 'Don't worry, everything's going to be alright' (unless of course it's Bob Marley singing)
Why was Downing taken off at half time? I don't think he was playing badly. His delivery was excellent, Agbonlahor should have scored from his spot on cross early on. Was it just to give Becks his chance? Maybe Capello saying to himself I'm happy with Downing lets see what DB has left in him. I wonder? It's a pity though that Crouch was not on the field when Downing's crosses were coming in.
I did notice that Cole hardly gave our man a decent ball, if he did pass it was struck hard making it hard to control on the touchline where space is short. Also the tv media were sparse in mentioning SD and then rarely more than mumbling his name.
Oh for a Xavi/ Villa/ Iniesta - but we had a skillful Brazillian who was shown the door in favour of good old fashioned big guns up front. And we have gone downhill since.
John Aus
Tees Exile you have hit the nail on the head.
Lets face it, we get the team we deserve. Being somebody who lived in the Boro for 26 years and has now lived outside for 19, I get to see a game live every couple of years. Negativey and booing is disgraceful at the matches, does nothing for the players confidence and we should all be ashamed.
Anyway, who cares if we go to the championship and do a Birmingham, bring back Rhys Williams, Grounds, promote Porritt, play Emnes every week, get Mogga for Manager and Rioch as his assistant.
Now wouldnt that be good?
UP THE BORO, THE BORO's GOING UP
In response to Mally P, I can't help but feel you are inventing a little mate. Firstly, to say that Gaizka Mendieta (TWICE European Midfielder of the year) couldnt 'lace Juninho's boots' is extremely ignorant.
Firstly Mendieta and Juninho were brought in to play in the same team....
Our cup winning team, Zenden and Mendieta were massive for us all season, Juninho although he had his moments and was of course hero worshipped, was visibly on the decline - there really needed to be no Opta stats to back that up.
Nothing evidenced it more clearly than the tired run in the final minutes of the final, whereby the Juninho of old would've carried on and completed the perfect cup moment for us (him scoring to make it 3-1) his legs just would not allow it.
Mendieta is probably the most underrated big name signing in the club's history, it was simply unfortunate that he picked up bad injuries that saw his days cut short. But who could predict that?
Compare it to now, we are looking at Championship players at best. The days of bringing in players who only a year earlier moved for £30m should be looked on with fondness, certainly not regret and bitterness!!
And also, are you suggesting that Gibbo made a mistake in sacking the board??? Ha what a joke! Yes if only he hadnt Colin Henderson hadnt been kicked out, he would have been ploughing in his vast millions to save us now I'm sure!
All this talk as players try to lift themselves mentally is okay but time for talking is long over and its time for Gate to give our side a chance and put a cohesive attacking unit out!
The good news its the cup so if you lose you are out SIMPLE. I dont want to see us trying to play for a replay from the off! Gareth remember your modus operandi of fast attacking football, I think you will find the fans still want that. No more excuses, you owe the fans a winning performance as we have forgotten what it feels like!
AV
I have tried four times over the last two days to post. Each time the message has come back saying the post was held by approval by the holder. Each time it hasn't appeared.
Lets try a small post this time in case you got bored reading my others, I will even change topic and keep it short (stop cheering in the background).
Lawro has us down for a 1-1 draw. It would not be the worst result in the world. A midweek replay under floodlights may be just the thing to lift the team and crowd, a boost for all of us.
Of course, a win at West ham wouldnt go amiss. The sound of all the media luvvies and journos gnashing their teeth would spark merriment in TS postcodes. Oh, to be consigned to the slot on ITV's pale imitation of MOTD to the closing credits...
**AV writes: Hmmm. The last post by you I can see was two days ago wishing Joe Kinnear well. There's nothing in any of the 'pending' baskets that I can access. There was a problem a few months ago when IT did some impromptu plumbing work and posts made here started appearing on the TS23 site but I can't check that from home.
In reply to Donald I did not say that it was a mistake to sack the board. In fact in Mr Gibson's early days he got most things right ie the new stadium, capacity crowds, big names etc but as is the case with most dictators after a honeymoon period things start to turn.
He held on to Robbo three years too long, made statements that riled the fans, put up prices three times the rate of inflation three years running and appointing two more rookie managers. Why do you think we have lost 10,000 fans?
Mr Gibson and his spokesmen have made statements in the past that "This club is going to be in the top six in Europe", "We are now as big as Liverpool". If you have lofty ambitions such as these it does not add up that you then become a training club for young managers.
As for the question of Mendietta, just because he had commanded the largest fee in Europe a few years ealier does not guarantee he is going to perform. He spent his time here just going through the motions having already made his pile and like a string similar others spent a lot of his time injured.
Have you also noticed that now the cash heady days have gone that the clubs ambitions have receded? They are starting to repeat the ridiculous "We are just a small town in North Yorkshire." You might as well say Aston {Villa} is just a small town in North Warwickshire!! We are part of a large conurbation including a million people within a 20 mile radius,and should be able to get 40,000 crowds if we had a good team to watch. How that is to be achieved i think has already been discussed.
AV
Whatever the Not-Super-Mario Brothers are doing to the 'plumbing' has now effected the access for those of us who can put articles on the Boro Banter site.
Hence no pre-match piece from me this week. It's written but can't be posted.
**AV writes: If you are doing a post-match one and can't get on, e-mail it to me at my work address and I'll see if I can shin up a drainpipe and go in through an open window round the back or something.
Mally P unless you are counting Sheep on the North Yorks Moors then we are nowhere near a million people or even close to it!
Tyneside has 880,000, Liverpool 816,000, and these catchment areas have potential for 40,000+ crowds. Because of the sheer volume of people clubs like Newcastle get bigger gates, its not Rocket science. If we had the potential to attract 40,000+ then there would be a queue of potential investors lining up outside Steve Gibson's drive.
Reality is that we have a catchment of 365,000 which puts us on a par with the likes of Reading 369,000, Stoke 362,000, Coventry 336,000, Bournemouth 384,000. Contrast that with say Leicester at 441,000 or Portsmouth at 442,000.
Before someone states the obvious that there are two clubs in Liverpool, consider that Birkenhead on its own has an additional 320,000 (nearly the same popultion as the entire Teesside conurbation).
We will never in our lifetime see potential for 40K crowds at the Riverside, we simply are a small (and relatively new in terms of history) town in North Yorkshire.
Tees Exile - Agree entirely.
I am wholeheartedly sick of the cringing negativity on this board and now only flick through every couple of weeks as many of the comments are simply embarrassing.
I too am an exile, and one that sees the odd match every couple of years. I won't be moving back - but I will always support the Boro.
Good result today, but worrying is the fact that Portsmouth won. While I agree that we are not yet doomed to the Championship and some teams around us are on bad runs, the fact is that we are now a couple of wins away from overtaking teams like Portsmouth. let's hope we can use today's result as a confidence booster and start winning games because time is running out.
A.V.
Like a lot of people appearing on this board, "just like the Tees that keeps on flowing, I rook a left turn and kept on going" apologies to Bruce Springsteen! I made a new life for myself and I do not regret for a second what I have done.
One thing I always remember, although I will never go back, is that I am a product of Teesside and I am proud of that, so I do not have a pop at what made me what I am. If people on this board want to have a whinge, then let them, my goodness with what is going on at MFC a rant or a whinge is well in order.
Please less of this "this board is full of whingers." It is not. It is made up of genuine articulate people who love the club as dearly, as I do and feel the pain of what is happening to it. I do not see the need to brand people who challenge as whingers.
Back to the Boro and without whinging, that was probably the worst example of shooting from our "striker" who according to Mr. Southgate "will win the tie for us" I am not whinging but falling off my chair laughing.
Also as Yogi Bera would say "It was like deja vu all over again" Taking a lead and defending deeper and deeper until the inevitable happened.
Ah well back to the league and those "five" wins, did Yogi Bera say "it is not over until the fat lady sings", by the way? I do know, however Mr Southgate Yogi said "show me a nice guy and I will show you a loser." Tthat is not a whinge it is a fact.
So we got the draw, close to winning it but last 10 minutes set piece scores again. Interesting that both goals were slack marking at the back post, for West Hams goal there were two unmarked players.
Lets hope we take the better form into the Wigan match.
A quick comment backing up Redcar Red. The attendances since moving to the Riverside bear comparison to any period in the clubs history. The only time they were bigger was the immediate post war period.
When the ground could hold 50,000 we still didnt get a 40,000 average gate. And there were not the distractions and blanket live TV coverage we have now.
Allowing some poetic licence, for 13 years we have had the 13th highest attendance in the 13th biggest ground finishing around 13th. I would settle for that this season.
It's really no surprise that there's negativity on the board. If Southgate starts coaching with a more attacking attitude (i.e. stops playing a defensive 4-5-1 at home), I'm sure the mood will lift. I just think the last few weeks have been hard to stomach. We've needed wins, but we come out and play as though we're trying to nick a point. If we're going to go down, I want us to go down fighting.