Boro Hit Rock Bottom At Baggies
OH DEAR. That was demoralising. Not just the scale of the defeat and the impact on the political and psychological landscape of Teesside. Also the manner of the defeat.
West Brom looked fitter, faster, stronger and hungrier for the victory that was hugely important for both sides. They were organised, motivated and up for it. Boro were overwhelmed by the Baggies intensity and desire and that is deeply worrying.
Boro were shapeless. Downing in the middle was a mess. With two non-specialist flankers on the wings drifting inside there was no outlet down either side when Boro's full-backs got the ball, preventing effective quick counters and forcing play into the congested middle where West Brom were first to the ball every time - especially after Digard, one of the few better performers, had been pedalled.
A further layer of tactical confusion was created by playing three player up-front with a tendency to wander. Downing was given the free role in the middle but Tuncay is by nature a wandering star while Alves also drifts out wide in order to cut in onto balls and shoot. But with the three of them in flux, whenever Boro got the ball at the back they looked up and there was no obvious out ball, no invitation to knock a ball down the channels or over the top because there was so often no-one there.
Southgate switched Tuncay and Downing after half an hour to try to rectify the situation but the game was gone by then. West Brom had the bit between their teeth - and the lead - and Boro were already engaged in damage limitation.
West Brom in contrast were knocking balls over the top for speedy Simpson and Fortune to burst onto or playing it out wide where they knew Brunt and Koren would be. It is indeed a simple game.
Boro were a mess in every area of the pitch. Alves missed four or five glorious chances - point blank headers, a close range effort and a one on one inside the box - and once again was the only real striking option. Where are the free-flowing breaking bodies from midfield? Where is Tuncay? Has he been kidnapped and replaced by a replicant with the footballing skills of Phil Whelan? And what of Gary O'Neil? Rarely can a player have had so little an impact on a game. And Shawky? Stewie, if anything, was trying too hard.
At the back once again Ross Turnbull prevented a defeat becoming an embarrassment but he was left exposed time and time again as West Brom's strikers simply burst past a static back line. They could not cope with the pace of the front two nor the movement of Albion's wide players. And even the simple tasks - hoofing the ball clear when under pressure - were sloppily executed with clearances falling at an opposition player's feet 30 yards out almost every time.
After the game the gaffer tried to suggest that the scoreline wasn't a reflection of the game and that Boro had chances, and that is true, they did. But they were also systematically monstered by a fired-up team that sniffed weakness and ruthlessly exploited it. If Southgate can argue that Boro should or could have had three goals then Mogga could respond by saying his side could or should have had six.
Yes, you can point to the goal being scored from the first phase, second phase grey area in the offside rules but it was a weak defensive header in the first place, no midfielder had tracked back with Brunt and besides, with 86 minutes to go there was plenty of time to retrieve the game.
Boro clearly need reinforcements in every department. Both the Baggies new strikers Simpson and Fortune would walk into Boro's side on current form and both arrived on loan, one from Arsenal, one of the clubs we have good links with and a lot of recent traffic with. Why wasn't he spotted and brought in?
West Brom fans started to chant "you're getting sacked in the morning" after the second goal and some Boro fans joined in. We may not be at that point - Steve Gibson's history suggests he has the sticking power to resist that kind of punter pressure - but the season is clearly at crisis point.
"It couldn't get much worse," admitted Southgate after the game. But the fear is that it actually could. Boro were kept out of the bottom three because of two late Chelsea goals but we can't rely on other team's results to salvage us every week. At some point we have to take control of our own destiny. No win in ten, turned over by the rock bottom team, few options left in a thin and fragile squad... where to from here?
******
And here's this week's Big Picture column in which I argue that Boro are down but not out. There is a long way to go and it is time to knuckle down, unite behind the cause and and start scrapping.
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An impressive and accurate write up overall and you were unfortunate with the first goal because our man was most certainly offside. The offside rule has always been contentious, yet the authorities have confused it even more. Back to simplicity say I !
I do hope you and ourselves stay up. Your team was basically honest, none of the diving, rolling, cheating, fool the ref stuff and you have good players, but not enough tenacity. Good luck.
I think we're coming to a crisis point now. It's five years since Cardiff which led to 2 good seasons in Europe and since Gareth was appointed it's been constant decline.
What amazes me is Gareth is now saying that if he had a Viduka or a Yakubu, there was always the possibility of goals! Hello Gareth, but you've spent £15 million on a strike force that can't get into double figures between them!
Enough is enough, please go now and take your back room staff with you and let's get people in that can generate a fighting spirit. Caring about the club is NOT enough - we need results and fast. At the moment we can't see where the next goal is coming from never mind the next point.
AV
Ian Gill and I were in the away end at The Hawthorns. The 'You're getting sacked in the morning' chanting didn't start in the The Baggies fans but in the normally uber-loyal Boro away following.
It was followed by Pro-Mogga chanting before moving on to sporadic attempts to speak of Teesside pride and support for the team, interspersed with attempts to do "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life" that died almost as soon as it started.
Although Gareth Southgate said he didn't think he was bullet proof I believe that the only reason he said it was because he knows he is bullet proof with Gibbo in full Canute mode.
In any event, we are almost at the point where a change of manager will be too late anyway - regardless of there being no money to spend.
If Southgate does not go now - and I agree that he won't - there is not much point in making a change because things will be at such a low ebb that it won't be recoverable whoever is in charge.
Yesterday was a sad and shocking afternoon - and we're in for more of them until our fate is sealed. What that fate is depends solely on whether there are three teams who can make an even worse mess of the rest of the season than Boro can.
At the moment there are plenty of candidates who are lining up to give us a scrap for the bottom three places. We can only hope it stays so.
OH NO!
I have been a fan of what Southgate has tried to do despite my misgivings about him getting the job in the first place however his demeanour after the game was one of a dead man walking.
This run warrants a change of manager - no question about it. It is sad because he cares for the club and has give it his best shot, unfortunately it hasn't been enough. The appointment of GS post eindhoven when the club was ready to progress was a mistake. We are now in a real mess.
One major concern is the lack of an obvious candidate to replace Gareth. I would love to see Mogga here but is the time right? Would he swop one relegation fight for another? I dont particulary think a foreign manger would fit into the ethos of Mr Gibson's vision of a club for Teesside. Also I am struggling to think of an obvious British Manager. Curbishley is the only name that comes with the experience required..... but is he right for Boro?
The problems are multiple, a thin squad, inexperience, some of the best players want out not to mention that debt. It is heartbreaking as there are some good things at the club, there seems to be a shift in policy re PR with the fans and pricing etc, of course the academy continues to produce and the likes of Turnbull, Wheater, Huth, Tuncay, Digard and Walker form the potential for a good team.
The cutting of the purse strings is not a bad thing and maybe now a return to the giddy heights of european football is a pipedream. Gradual improvement and maybe avoiding the dogfight combined with cup success is where we should be realistically aiming. If this can be done with good football and some academy graduates then it sure would beat some of the dark days of the past.
Mr Gibson.........good luck.
All the issues from before the start of the season remain. Add to that we are skint .
On the positive side Digard looks good .
How many matches will he miss for this RED card AV?
We missed hoyte and Aliadiere down the right yesterday and pogger on the left.
Like most of us I am truly worried about our club, relegation could signal the start of years in the wilderness.
We need to get the best out of the players we have, to me that means playing players in their strongest position as far as is possible and bringing in some additions in key areas.
I know we are pressed on the financial side but ask yourself this; would you rather be a premier league club with £110 million of debt (assuming our current debt is around 100 million) or a Championship side with £90 million of debt and little prospect of being able to pay it back?
I know it is not just as easy as spending cash but we have been hearing for ages about our improved scouting network well lets see what they can produce!! We have one of the worst scoring records in the Premiership and one of the worst defensive records to match it. Add to that a threadbare midfield. I refuse to believe that we are not able to identify a single target from our worldwide scouting network that could at least go some way to improving that situation.
Please guys sort this out. I will follow boro through thick and thin, even in the Championship, but our long term future now hangs in the balance.
UP THE BORO!!
I couldn't bring myself to watch the highlights of the West Brom game, having heard the full horror unfold on BBC Tees. I sensed the game was over after the early goal they scored, but was confirmed in my belief when I heard the description of Alves' missed header shortly afterwards.
In any tragic play, there is an inevitability that drives the characters on, even to a self-destructive end that everyone wishes to avoid. It felt like that yesterday.
There is a hopeful bulling-up that pervades Ali Brownlee's commentaries, sometimes comic (you want to listen to him at the same time as watching a game - sometimes it seems as though he is watching a game similar to yours, but sometimes....) though on other occasions sad. I worry for him this weekend. Is anyone calling around to his house, to hide away the sharp objects?
AV - to what extent will the written pieces in the Gazette next week reflect the true feelings and fears of the journalists? Is there an editorial "house-style" to which the writers are required to conform?
For example - are they required to look for the most positive spin on any situation? Are criticisms of individual players, or management, required to be muted or in the mildest possible tones? Is it possible to say what the supporters are saying? Is there a feeling that, if critical other than in a warm, touchy-feelie way that makes it clear we understand the difficulties faced by the players and staff, the Gazette would be banned from the stadium?
In other words, does the shadow of Stalinism creep along the corridor to the Press Room, and should the readers be as cynical as the cognoscenti when skimming through Pravda?
I ask because I wonder whether the readers will need to read between the lines, to decipher the code words, in the next few weeks. Mind you, the other option, when an organ is "banned" from the Press Box, is that the pieces still get written having watched the game from a paid seat or from a TV screen and, no longer having to kowtow to the Party line, "the real truth" could be written.
**AV writes: It is very hard to put any positive spin on ten without a win and being turned over by the basement boys. If it is rubbish we will always say so. Wider political and diplomatic considerations are always heeded whenever emotions are running high and we don't do knee-jerks just to play to the gallery but when it is a crisis we are duty bound to reflect that.
"But they were also systematically monstered by a fired-up team that sniffed weakness and ruthlessly exploited it. "
"No win in ten, turned over by the rock bottom team, few options left in a thin and fragile squad... where to from here? "
Steve Gibson might be relying on the 'balance of probability' in respect of his support for Southgate and Boro's survival in the Premier League, but for the 'punters' it's 'beyond reasonable doubt' - Southgate was the wrong choice and has gone on to prove it. Blind faith is not going to stop this out-of-control, downward spiral to the Championship.
By prolonging Southgate's (and our) agony for at least a year longer than the evidence showed, Gibson's reputation for supporting his managers is intact (if not his choice) and this will not be tarnished by doing the right thing now. Gibson may have the club on a sound footing, with a strategy for competing on the basis of youth and development, but the execution (through Southgate) is woeful. We are being out-thought and out-fought by teams parading our 'cast-offs'.
There is a range of managerial talent out there who could (and with the right offer would) organise and galvanise this club in the last 16 games that we have left. THERE IS NOTHING TO SHOW that Southgate has this capability.
Let Gibson publicly display the evidence to the contrary, let Gibson publicly state where we expect to get the points necessary to stay in this league, let Gibson publicly name the teams he believes to be worse than us and expects to be relegated. Because, I'm only a 'punter' and I can't see it.
As you have identified that the season is "clearly at crisis point" and we're not holding our breath on action from Gibson, where do you stand AV?
Where to indeed ? If we maintain our current form the only logical conclusion is that we will be relegated.
Our so called senior players, the ones who the club steadfastly refuses to sell, are simply not doing it for the boss man.
It may be that the bank is calling the tune at the Boro these days and even sacking the manager would need its approval but can we not go into "wheeler-dealer mode"? What is stopping us from entering the loan market ? Is it that we cannot even afford to fork out the loan fee on top of the salary ?
Our club has the stench of death all over it.
MK Dons here we come.
Now I'm starting to worry!
With the Premiership relegation situation in the state it's in, goal difference might play a huge factor at the end.
Can the manager honestly say that there are no players on offer who are better than the one's we've got?
I understand the need for fiscal restraint but what comfort is that from the reaches of the championship - and make no mistake, that is where we are heading. We are in freefall and there is no sign of a parachute.
Permission to panic Mr Mainwairing?
Reading Keith Lamb's quotes in September he reckoned that Boro could conceivably compete to get a Champions League place. I think he has been misquoted because if anything we are going to compete for a Championship place.
The team look bereft of Ideas and the biggest thing that is missing is confidence, and because of a lack of it we are also lacking consistency. Perhaps the biggest charge that can be made at Southgate is that the players that have left the club sem to be performing better elsewhere than the players that have come into the club. Cattermole & Morrison , two boys we let go on the cheap and replaced them with wait for it, Emnes and Shawky.
I dont want to see Southgate sacked because I genuinely believe that he has the ability to turn this round, what appears to be missing though is the "spirit" within the camp and that may be the difference between us going down and staying up.
I really do feel sorry for Southgate. I think he was totally let down by the players yesterday. This squad is a lot better than that, we all know that that, but they just aren't performing.
Offside or not, the defending was atrocious for West Brom's goals, Digard's red card may have been slightly harsh but it was reckless and unnecessary, and Alves continues to miss chance after chance after chance. Not to mention the players who seem to be going missing - Tuncay a prime example.
Is that Southgate's fault? Well, the buck ultimately stops with him and he isn't getting the best out of them at the moment. His interviews don't instill confidence and his strategy seems to be to keep doing the same thing and hoping we turn the corner.
Everything obviously isn't right in the dressing room - Andrew Taylor's interview on Radio Tees yesterday was interesting, it sounded like the defence and attack was basically blaming each other for the result, and asked how unified they were after all the transfer requests/speculation - he replied 'it's getting back to what it was'.
I still think Gareth is the right man, and I still think we can stay up comfortably but he needs the players to be performing to do that. Steve Gibson needs to take a look and if he decides that the players aren't playing for the manager anymore, he has to make a decision for the good of the club.
If he is satisfied that they are all in this together and are determined to move this club up the table, we all need to accept that and we all need to get behind them for the rest of the season.
We have two no-lose games coming up this week, anything from Chelsea would be a bonus, and I'm sure no-one cares about the Cup at the moment, though a win would be a nice confidence boost.
Come on Boro!
Where to from here?? The championship beckons. It's time for Gibson to have a realisation and stop being a nihilist and sack Southgate.
Three years he has been in charge and we have gotten progressively worse. £12m on Alves is now a huge waste of resources. Blackburn got Santa Cruz and Benni McCarthy for £3.5m each. Kenwyn jones cost sunderland about the same.
Why didnt we spot these players?
I reckon we should get Curbishley in someone of that standing, hopefully have the new manager bounce which could keep us up this season. without this, we are down.
Where do we go from here? Only one way it seems.
What is happening at Boro is symptomatic of what is happening to this wonderful game that I used to love. Priced out of the working mans reach, a league with only one winner, Man.Utd, ( to think I used to slag of the Scots league, at least they have competition). Boro will never ever win the league, and like a great many teams will never ever qualify for europe again.
Money has taken over, and a small club like Boro cannot it seems even compete with yo-yo's like WBA anymore. Why do I watch? Why do I put myself through misery every Saturday? Whats the point when Man Utd will always win the league, and the only futuure for Boro is mid table mediocrity in the championship - if they are lucky. Me and football are finished, thank you and good night.
I fear the only way is down from here.
AV, I don’t feel much inclination to defend Boro and GS at the moment but I have to take issue with your comment that we were “overwhelmed by the Baggies…”
The fact is, we had FIVE glorious chances in the first half, four to Alves, one to Tuncay. Had we converted three of them then the game was over. However, so easy were those chances, we ought to have buried four of them at least.
Yes West Brom had a one-on-one against Turnbull that should also have been converted, so I would say 2-4 at half time would have been a fair refection on chances. And it is on chances created that the game should be judged, rather than possession as that is the whole point of the game…apart from converting them of course which seems to be a rather difficult task for us right now.
That we failed to score at all in that first half was a reflection on our shockingly poor finishing, especially from Alves who missed three sitters and one very makeable chance. In fact, Alves had three opportunities from the six yard line and didn’t hit the target from one of them. Amazing, in fact, sickening as a passionate Boro fan.
I have said all I want to say on Boro Banter on the tactics and team set up that GS dreamed up. Baffling and wasteful. I posted on this site recently commenting on the 'free role' that Stewy Downing has been given in the last three games.
I stand by my assessment that it must surely be a demand from Downing himself that he be given this role as part of the agreement that he stays at Boro. Does he see himself challenging Gareth Barry as the England left side utility man?
Why else would GS send him out in that position? Total waste of Downing’s contribution and that of Tuncay, whose space Stewy continually filled, to the extent that Tuncay went runabout trying desperately to get into the game...he failed.
As you ask, where to now? Where is the inspiration going to come from? I wait and wait for Tuncay to be the man who brings the spark but he has been poor for weeks. That may be as a result of the bizarre tactics but this has not always been the case. He has not delivered. Mido? Is there still hope? Alves? Do we persevere with him?
I hope that the foreign players we have in our team retain, if it is there at all, a feeling of pride for this club and for the town, and dig deep along with the ‘locals’ to get us out of this mess (and I think I should include Gary O’Neil in the "foreign player" category given his "can't settle" saga).
We can talk about inspiration, about sparks, but basically it comes down to hard work…and taking chances.
If this report from AV is an objective view of the match yesterday what an indictment of Southgate's management of the club.
Something has to change, we cannot drift on like this and hope things will improve.There are two options: a change of manager, or some loan signings brought in. We cannot go on with the squad as it is.
I am not a pessimist by nature and was pro-Southgate but we seemed to be gripped by inertia - as if because Southgate is such a nice guy he shouldn't be sacked. Is he making a difference? Is he effective?
His record over the last two months is poor and his overall record as manager since 2006 is to say the least moderate.In fact we are not standing still we are deteriorating- and that requires immediate, decisive remedial action from Gibson.
Well, Alves had the chance to show us why he cost £12m but just blew it I`m afraid. Four good chances in a crucial must-win game and he couldn`t even put one away.
I watched the game in Abu Dhabi and the commentator, Alan Parry, said at the start of the game that Alves was on a red-hot streak. Two goals against a non-league defence and one against the Mackems - that is red hot?? He`s never even been luke warm this season!
The whole game was an actual shambles. At least my seven year old son is getting used to the hard lessons in life about learning to lose. He cares, but do the players?
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. At the beginning of the season I thought the team was good enough to finish 14/15th, hoping I was being pessimistic. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight I can see in fact I was being optimistic.
Only saw extended highlights last night, but easy to see the team, the club, is in total disarray. Current tactics and team selection/formation shows the plot is truly lost now. However well intentioned the staff are, the ship is rudderless and there is no senior figure on board to help advise GS and his so called experts out of the storm. Oh for Terry V again for a few months. Who does GS turn to and please no one mention Mr Crosby.
It's often said we should be beating teams like WBA, Bolton Fulham etc; thats exactly what those teams say about us.
Despite my despair and melancholy about all things Boro these days,I can see no point in changing the manager at this time, only because there's no one out there.
GS is intelligent, honest and articulate and perhaps this is part of the problem. I can't think of any other professional sport where there are so many 'thickos' in charge and making decisions. One only has to listen to after match interviews etc, when its clear the average player and manager can't put more than two sentences together. I'm getting personal because I'm so uptight at the teams alarming downward spiral.
In fairness to players and managers,some of the questions put to them by Journos and especially Sky are embarrassing.
Bring on the Wolves.
DEAR MR GIBSON PLEASE SAVE OUR CLUB. MAKE THE CHANGE NOW. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. SOUTHGATE WILL NOT TURN THINGS AROUND YOU KNOW THAT. LET HIM GO. SAVE OUR CLUB. IN YOU WE TRUST
Well we have made it into the bottom 3 now!!!!
This is my first ever post so ignore the lack of punctuation and spelling. I aint a brain surgeon, I'm a football fan.
I am so gutted i just cant get my head round all of this. What does everyone else think? I really feel like Southgate has to go, and I don't say that lightly but I feel like he has taken us as far as he can. He just seems to lack vision during the football match he never makes the right sort of substitutions, he is never positive enough and this is costing us points.
I like GS, don't get me wrong, but i feel he is not strong enough with the players to get us out this mire. Anyway i will go and leave the posting to the pro's ok
Thank you
**AV writes: Anyone can post on here, EXCEPT brain surgeons. Welcome aboard.
Thanks AV. I am in a state if turmoil. I feel physically sick at looking at the league table. I would gladly give my leg or even an arm for Boro to do well - I have supported them boy and man - but i just cant see any light at the end of the tunnel.
What has happened to Southgate's attacking football? The only attack we see at the minute is the opposition, and yes they always seem to score. What's going on?
We miss more chances than most teams get in a month. Come on Afonso, please.
Like I said I love the Boro and always will, but we need to sort it out and quickly.
Gibson, please see sense and make the changes you need to make. Above all Boro you are my number one and you are the number one for the whole of Teesside so please play for the fans we all love you.
Come On Boro.
Another tactical shambles which confused the fans let alone the players.
The current side (please note the use of the word "Side" and not "Team" as that by its very use may imply spirit) have no fight or belief. They are an empty barren wilderness temporarily clothed in red.
Gareth is not to blame for this, he has done his best without any training, tools or experience. What else could we or SG expect or anticipate. Practice does not make perfect it makes permanent; repeating those same mistakes week after week, month after month just confirms this.
Malcolm Crosby's previous Managerial C.V. was less than impressive, Coops is as naive and inexperienced as Gareth so what on earth was Steve Gibson thinking of when appointing this group (please note careful and deliberate avoidance of the "T" word again) to drive the club forwards?
In fairness to Gareth he has achieved a number of Club imposed dictats, namely reduction of ages and wages but at what looks to be an ultimate terrible cost. I have no doubt Steve Gibson's external business affairs are not immune and will have suffered greatly in the global recession and is in part the rationale behind some of these policies. There was probably very little alternative but all the more reason to require experience in these troubled times.
In the Long term I hope Gareth remains with the club as his current apprenticeship will serve him well but like any apprentice he needs a skilled and qualified tradesman to learn his art from.
The current group of individuals are under-performing which at least perhaps gives us some lame optimism. With no money to spend (and besides lets face it who with ambitions would be inspired to join a club at rock bottom) the only thing we can hope for is the manifestation of the second coming of El Tel or A.N.Other.
In difficult times it is hard to be positive and evidently so after reading most of the above posts. I thought you played reasonably ok yesterday, tried to play football, and were better than a good few other teams that have been down the Hawthorns, who are not interested in playing football.
I've always admired Southgate and think that he will keep you in the Prem. It's a very interesting league this season with so many in the relegation fight all separated by a few points.
Indeed, think about it, you are no worse off than the likes of Newcastle, Tottenham, Portsmouth. All the teams are bunched up, there is no disgrace in being in the fight this season.
Keep the faith, you need to stick together otherwise you will go down.
The one thing that really gets to me about the demise under Gareth Southgate is that feeling of complete helplessness that you get from the whole situation.
Its like one of those dreams where you can see what is going to happen (i.e fall off the edge of a cliff), but you have no control over the situation and are just carried along as a passenger.
If Mr Gibson has any compassion for the plight of the Boro fans, then he will end this misery that has gone on for too long. We understand his thinking in appointing Mr Southgate, but even he cannot be blind to the slow death by torture we are having to endure.
Please Mr Gibson, listen to the fans. They have followed the Boro through thick and thin and will not suffer fools. Please end this miserable experiment that has failed so dramatically, before we end up in the championship.
I believe the majority of the fans now want Gareth's managerial misery to be ended. We would like to see a proper manager appointed, who has Premiership experience, and has proven that they can get the best out of what they have.
It is clear that the team are not giving everything to Gareth, and once the dressing room has gone, then drastic actions are required.
Why also are we not trying to get players on loan? I cannot believe that Gareth thinks that Matthew Bates as a midfielder, Tuncay as a winger, Arca as a left winger are better than any potential loan deals available.
If the performance under Gareth were steadily improving at least we might believe he can turn things around. However, we have seen no evidence whatsoever that things are getting any better, indeed they are getting worse each week.
Which leads me to one conclusion. Mr Southgate will always be viewed as a legend player for the Boro, but he is not a manager that can save us from relegation. Thank you Gareth for your efforts, now please do the honourable thing and at least be honest about your shortcomings as manager and resign.
Anthony
You certainly wrote that feature with some restraint.
Gareth Southgate has allowed himself to be both manipulated and hoodwinked, because he truly believed his players had the guts and firepower to turn things around.
Even if Steve Gibson gives him a stay of execution it will not resolve anything, because they accept losing as if it is an expectation and have nothing up front to offer.
It’s just as well our goalie has been consistent despite the results, otherwise our goals against would look like a lottery ticket.
The fans have to be Steve Gibson’s guide and he must have seen and heard more than enough.
Most teams above us are there on effort alone and it is that fact which hurts.
Make no mistake, Gate wont be sacked - but he may walk. Whatever happens there will be no time to do anything before the window closes. We have what we have so get used to it.
As John said above, the taunting of Gate appeared to start amongst the Boro fans, there were some very angry fans around us.
So where now? The only thing is to pick a team of players in their correct positions and stick to it. Otherwise you may as well play McMahon left wing, Rosco up front and Downing at centre back.
No discussion of tactics that went wrong or what to in the coming weeks. It is as pointless as our performances. Just bloody get on with some gutsy performances.
I don't know if anybody reading this blog watched Soccer AM yesterday, but I was surprised to see Boro doing the Crossbar Challenge as I always thought that this part of the show was reserved for "lower league" teams (said with tongue in cheek and a nod to the future?).
Those players taking part in the challenge at Crockcliffe seemed to be enjoying it, so as a very brief glimpse into team morale things didn't seem too bad on the surface. Mido missed by a country mile, but maybe he wasn't really up for it.
The saddest part of the whole item was when GS ran up to the camera and introduced himself as the manager before pointing to the players and adding words to the effect that he wouldn't be manager for much longer (2 weeks he suggested) if "that lot don't start pulling their fingers out".
Many a true word is said in jest but you could almost feel his frustration in knowing that he seems unable to motivate a talented bunch of individuals into giving their all for him and our club!
Redcar Red
I couldn't disagree with you more, mate. The fact that highly paid "professional" players can't be bothered to turn up (ie compete) is absolutely Gate's responsibility and absolutely his fault.
A couple of years ago after yet another home roasting by Villa, I posted on here that I wanted Gate out. He proved me wrong and I'm glad he was given the time to turn things around. I became an admirer of what he's tried to do at the club and of his general demeanour. I really wanted him to succeed against all the odds.
However I now genuinely believe that the time has come for him to go. He clearly isn't motivating the players any more and his TV press conferences paint a picture of a depressed and worried man. Frankly, his management of the team isn't good enough now, as typified by Tuncay. If you can't get Tuncay to put in a full shift, then there is something desperately wrong.
I can't see Gate turning this round this time. We can't score, we can't defend, we can't buy anyone, and we have problems all over the field, compounded by playing people out of position! And worst of all, we have no heart for the fight, it seems. And that, I'm afraid, is down to Gate.
My worries are like everyone else's - if he does go, and there is no indication that Gibbo has come to that conclusion yet - will it be too late for another manager to turn things round?
And if he goes, who comes in? Who is out there? Curbishley? No thanks. Hoddle, Avram Grant? Ditto. Souness would kick ass a bit, but hasn't managed for yonks. Ditto O'Leary. Perhaps we could get Keegan? If nowt else that would proper sicken the Geordies off. Where's El Tel when you need him?
Press conference at Boro in the morning 10am.... inside info.
Apparently it is either Bruce Rioch taking over or Bruce helping Southgate.
From what I am told Southgate handed in his resignation 3 weeks ago but was told to stay by Gibson....we shall see!
**AV writes: Good rumour-mongering. The Gazette have not been informed of any impromptu press conference today. Boring eh?
Listening to the after-match Southgate interview, I heard for the very first time him mention his tenure as Boro manager, and I don't think he was even prompted.
I just hope Gibbo heard it, because it sounded like a cry for help.
Sadly, Gate appears to have absolutely no idea on how to get us out of this mess. His tactics and team selection are nothing short of baffling, he appears to have lost the respect of some of the players who are now not performing on the park, in much the same way as happended to Robbo when he admitted he needed help and in came El Tel.
The fans are now actively goading him, and probably Gibbo next, at least they waited until after the final whistle of the last game of the season before they showed their displeasure of Robbo.
I agree with Ian Gill, he will not be sacked, Gibbo has never sacked a manager yet, but he may well walk. A man can only take so much pressure, and Gate is nearing the point where you can see the visible effects it is having on him. You don't need to be a behavioral psychologist to see that the man is hurting.
I realised there was a problem a while back when Gareth was asked in an interview why do you continue zonal marking on corner kicks and free kicks (remember we kept conceding goals from them) his reply was that all there information stats(books) indicated to them that was the best system.
Houston to Gareth - start looking at the personel you have and the opposition you are up against and start marking someone. Get your head out of the manual and coach football
This is a time for traditional Gibson Fortitude.
He has selected a manager who he believes in - that we all have believed in at some point - and who has presented a coherent philosophy as to how the Boro should operate. It involved hard-work, dynamic, attacking football and younger players who wanted to be there. More than anything it was about making Middlesbrough proud of its team. These are aims we can all get behind.
But this project has gone seriously off the rails, and we're approaching breaking point. A cricket score at Chelsea, defeat at Wolves and failing to win against Blackburn and who would be ready to fight on?
But this is only one scenario of many and Gibson must know this. He should know equally that keeping the score down at the Bridge, getting through Wolves by hook or by crook (followed by a kind draw) and fluking a 1-0 against Rovers and suddenly we're not looking too bad. Such is the nature of this season, this Premiership.
Gibson should, and does, have the bravery to stick to his guns. We, as fans, cannot be expected to do the same at all points but must, ultimately, back his decisions in a strategic sense, as he's been the architect of our past glories.
My humble charge for Gibson and Lamb would be to try and amass some money from some where. Call in favours, sell some assets, sell some players, just get some capital to give Gareth to patch up our team. Get Storrie back on the phone to say we were only joking about turning down their O'Neil bid. Try and get legal tender for Mido. There are deals to be had.
Gareth should, equitably, have the next three games at his leisure and Gibson should be foresquare behind him and prepared to back him more. This should only change if the next three games go apocalyptically wrong.
I cannot understand how any manager/coach could attempt to change a team system three quarters through a season. It was a very important game, as they all are now, but one where "boro" needed NOT to lose.
None of the players appeared to know their roles and when it was changed, it was too late. I personely think too many players want to be elsewhere and are not committed to the cause. Bad buys and having no coach of quality is creating good players to not care and bad players bringing them down further.
Gareth will make a good manager but not at Boro and not now. It is not a good idea to promote or be promoted to manager where you work at present , it does not work. K K as manager? Maybe not.
Billy:
I just watched that Soccer AM clip on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFby1bdQDdc
The most alarming point for me is that neither of our strikers were anywhere near! If they ever do a "6-yard line Crossbar Challenge" at least we could rely on Afonso to shank it bang on.
Oh dear. 3-0 was not a good result at any time, but it's clearly coming down to goal difference this year, and our's isn't good. The problem is, I can't see three worse teams on current form:
Bolton - mixed results, could get dragged down, but demolished us last time.
Newcastle - always been pretty spawny, will probably get a couple of signings in and you'd bank on Mickey to score the vital goals for them.
Sunderland - could get dragged back down now the "new manager" effect is wearing off.
Tottenham - spending big, big squad, old saggy-face is bound to sort them out.
Blackburn - on an Allardyce-inspired revival. The only way to drag them back down is to beat them at home in 2 weeks. Fingers crossed ey?
Boro - sinking fast
Stoke - nearly got a result at Chelsea, and lets face it, they've probably got 3 points in the bag when they will inevitably beat us at their place.
West Brom - good home form might just see them escape, and they've loaned 2 new strikers to sort out their known weakness - not scoring goals.
When you consider it like that I think it's going to end up a 4-way fight between Boro, Sunderland, Stoke and Brom. Possibly Newcastle and Bolton to get drawn in.
Should GS go? I said yes before the Brom game, but now I'm not sure. Who's to say that a new man will get them doing the business?
I just hope GS goes back to a basic 4-4-2 and basic game plan sooner rather than later. We also need a genuine partner for Alves - Mido perhaps?
Time for a change/ GS has done his very best but the players do no seem to have motivation or passion. Bring in a new manager, sell the family jewels and give the new manager this money to freshen things up. If not we are doomed
In 1681, John Dryden wrote: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ...
We cannot just put out the same dozen players and manager and expect to win the
next few matches.
borolad32 stated many true things in his comment above, so I will just echo that Southgate has no depth of experience from which to improve things.
There are some managers who are available or in the Championship who have a much better chance of keeping us up:
- I would sign Curbishley tomorrow if he would agree to the job. He has a wealth of experience in Premiership relegation battles, and he is still familiar with most of the clubs and players, so no learning curve.
- I doubt that Avram Grant would go from first place to 18th place, but again, he was preparing game plans against most of our opponents only a few months ago.
- Paul Jewell has had some setbacks lately, but he has also had some Premiership relegation battle successes. I think that his spell at Derby only broadens his experience.
- The same can be said for Ian Dowie, although his CV does not look as good as Jewell's.
- Martin Jol is vastly underrated (still has the best record in recent times as a Spurs manager), but he is currently 4th in the Bundesliga, so clearly is unavailable.
- Souness has even less of a clue about managing than Southgate, so please no. The aforementioned O'Leary and Hoddle are too long away from the Premiership to work out at this late hour.
- If the El Tel rumour is true, that would be quite acceptable.
Concerning players:
- Gary O'Neil should be sold back to Portsmouth by noon today, as his worth is significantly less than their bids. That would free up money to buy 2-3 worthy lower leaguers.
- Try to flog Alves to Eredivisie teams, using the true logic that he is not right for the Premiership, but has more than demonstrated his value in the Eredivisie. Our relegation competition is signing proven Premiership goalscorers like Beattie, and we need to do the same. Youth is fine, but in a relegation fight, some 35 year olds can be quite useful.
AV
If, as you say, the Gazette is allowed to comment on a crisis when it presents itself - and assuming that Gate is around to answer them (I don't see any chance that he will either walk or be sacked) - are you allowed to ask questions too?
If so, here are a few:-
Does he still stand by the view that this is his team, his dugout, his Crockliffe and that he should be judged on this season?
If he does, what would his judgement be of where things stand with the team, the dugout, Crockliffe and him now that we're in the bottom three?
If he knows what to do to get Boro out of this and is capable of making it happen why has he waited for a run of ten without a win to deploy?
If he has deployed what he knows and all his capability why hasn't it worked?
Has the policy of small and less experienced squad and the mis-handling by MFC of the transfer window contributed to the current malaise?
If what he has been doing hasn't worked, is he going to try some other things?
If not, what makes him think that carrying on the way he is will bring about an improvement?
If so, what is he going to try? And why does he believe that those things will succeed where what he's doing now hasn't?
So, if he thinks those things will work, why didn't he do them before?
I think that if we're all in this together then we're due some honest answers to questions like this and others.
**AV writes: Almost all of those questions have been put to Gareth over the course of the season and with increasing variety and frequency in recent weeks and to be fair to him he has always answered them fully and honestly.
On Saturday for instance he was asked point blank if the squad was good enough to survive and he answered. He was asked if he would or should be banging down Gibbo's door to demand cash for reinforcements and he answered. He was asked directly if he was now facing the sack and he answered.
Just because people don't like - or don't believe - the answers does not mean the press are not doing their job. Asking the questions differently, or more aggressively or more persistently doesn't change the basic economic or theoretical landscape. The club have adopted their new model of a size-zero squad for compelling reasons and they are not in a position to change tack dramatically.
The fact remains that Boro are one win away from mid-table
But for a rather fortunate goalline clearance WBA would have got the 4th goal they needed to send Boro bottom.
In the previous game another goalline clearance scraped a point. That one looked over the line to me. If either of those had gone in Boro would be bottom where they belong.
Perhaps dropping to the foot of the table is the only thing that will make the chairman sit up and take notice of the shambolic state his policies have reduced this club to.
" Judge me this season " - Gareth Southgate
TB
Can someone call Amnesty International and report Steve Gibson for subjecting Gareth Southgate to cruel and unnecessary punishment.
He's placed an unqualified coach with no experience in charge of a top-flight team and then told him to make massive spending cuts and left him to gamble on surviving by buying up-and-coming untested players both from abroad and the youth academy.
Then when it's obvious to everyone who has only a basic understanding of football that the team desperately needs new players throughout the team he tells his manager that there is no money available!
We are now stuck in a rather complex footballing mexican standoff:
- Southgate persists in playing his big gamble signing Alves in the hope of him discovering his dutch form because he has no alternative.
- Gibson persists in his backing for his gamble of Southgate in the hope he can somehow turn things around because he has no alternative.
- The supporters continue to back Gibson's judgement and leadership in the hope that he is always right because they have no alternative.
Southgate is just pretending he has signed new players by playing all his existing players in different positions but every time he tinkers it just weakens different parts of the team.
Sorry Mr Gibson but there is an alternative and it's plain to see that it's time for a change - we need an experienced man to steer us out of this mess and give the club a lift otherwise you and everyone else can kiss their premiership dreams goodbye.
AV
Sorry if I rattled the cage - not my intention. I look forward to reading the answers to these questions. Then I'll know then whether I like or believe the answers or not.
As you know, like many of us, I'm a pretty assiduous reader of all things Boro on pretty well every source you can think of. If these questions have been put to Mr. Southgate and he's answered directly, I haven't seen the answers otherwise I wouldn't still be asking for them.
Perhaps you can point me to the sources. Happy to be corrected. Maybe the answers to the other questions (aside from the 'sacking' one) that were put on Saturday will appear today - they haven't so far.
I agree the basic theoretcical and economic landsape may be a given - what you choose to do within it doesn't have to be. Indeed, that's all there is to talk about, if you accept the given.
The questions I have asked are not about the theoretical/economic framework - they're about what is being done within it.
I would have thought that persistence and probing (not aggression, for which there is no need) is absolutely legitimate - particularly if nothing's changing for the better and, indeed it's getting worse.
Boro may be one win away from mid-table but where's that win coming from? And how? Against Chelski? Against Blackburn or Citeh? After each of those rounds of fixtures will Boro still only be one win from mid-table? Or are these more questions we shouldn't be asking because they've already been answered?
AV - Yes we are only one win away from mid-table, but so are 9 or 10 other clubs. And even the most ardent foam-hand-waver would acknowledge that most of them look more likely to get that win!
Our problem now is that we're in a pressure situation. Saturday was a winnable-game and a chance to ease the pressure before the cup game and Chelsea game. Instead we've heaped more pressure on ourselves.
If we get beat by Wolves and lose at Chelsea then there won't be a scrap of confidence left for the Blackburn game. GS has said previously that the team were short on confidence, well that's his remit, and he's clearly failing to fulfil it.
I desperately want GS to turn it round because he's a honest guy with honest principles. And if he does turn it round then hopefully the experience will stand him in good stead. I think almost all of us can say with confidence that the experience-stripping of the squad was a catastrophic failure.
Ironically the team is crying out for most of the players we lost. Rocky would walk into our side at the moment, and even though he was a proper "marmite" player (love him or hate him) with Digard or O'Neill partnering him (someone with an engine) he would have easily added that missing something. Tuncay is there to link midfield and attack, but Rocky linked defence to midfield. At the moment we just have 3 units of players doing their own thing.
There is as yet no report of the "meeting" in which you all expect Gareth to walk.
We all know Gibbo, it is not his style to sack people. He has the patience of jobe.
We are all teed off after a few false dawns. Let's be honest, we are not good enough. If I was Gibbo or Lambie, I would sell all the foreigners, they have always taken the Michael. We can then drop to the championship, take the premier league money and develop our own lads.
While I am on, bring back Rioch to do it all over again !!
Southgate has to go.
It is a shame as the man comes across as a decent, hardworking guy with some basic integrity. However if he has anything about him he should have the dignity to walk and give us a fighting chance to survive rather than take the club down. Even Robson kind of admitted defeat and cleared the way for someone to rescue us.
If we do survive and GS stays we are looking at probably being in the same situation again next season without SD, GON, Huth and Mido.
Still without any immediate and decisive action from the top brass we get all that we deserve. If that means Championship football then that is the result of continued bad decision making at an executive level from the crossroads that was Eindhoven 2006.
If we do go down we'll probably sink without trace and join Southampton, Charlton and other mid table alumni down among the dead men !
Saturday's defeat was as damaging as they come in my opinion. We've just played two winnable games and come out with one point, the teams confidence is shot to pieces and we have injuries to several players which has exposed a very thin squad.
Despite being the eternal optimist I am now mentally prepared for the Championship. I am a big supporter of Southgate, as far as inexperienced managers go I think he has the attributes to be a succesful boss but his inexperience and lack of funds have combined to create a situation that I can't see a way out of.
I know form is a strange beast but I can't see Boro turning this situation round.
The recent Gazette headline 'Summer may see duo move on' has now got to take the prize as the most under stated newspaper headline ever.
In the Summer there is likely to be a mass exodus as the players who get us relegated run for the door as their egos and agents tell them they are too good for the Championship!
I'm off to the Chelsea match where I hope to witness a miracle but I believe its a forlorn hope, if we lose to Chelsea and Blackburn Gareth's position may become untenable, I hope not because he still has my support but again I'm not optimistic.
I also don't believe a new manger at this stage will have the desired impact, unless we can find someone who can inspire Alves to believe he can score again. The lack of goals has been our undoing this year, we have been let down by Mido who doesn't seem to care and Alves is clearly mentally shot to pieces.
Our best hope is to recognise we are in the mire, grit our teeth stick together and for the team to start grinding out results.
Going forward and looking ahead to the remainder of the season Gareth Southgate needs to keep it simple, his best left winger playing on the wing, his best second striker (Tuncay) playing just behind his (only) striker Alves, the best players in their best positions, football is a simple game, GS needs to get that message across to his players and finally from somewhere he needs to find a striker he can bring in on loan, I've got John Hicktons number if he wants it.
AV said in response to John Powls, "The fact remains that Boro are one win away from mid-table." I cant believe you said that AV. Please remind me to look at the table when it happens!
Just a thought about who might be available should GS go...The man at Leicester. Ex Boro captain courageous, cut his teeth at Carlisle, Southampton, Newcastle and now top of Div 1.Be a fool to leave wouldn't he.
Anyway, I still see no point in GS going, but a need for fresh,well respected experience behind the scenes is vital in my mind if Boro are to have any chance of survival.
**AV writes: WHy can't you believe it? Is it beyond comprehension. Things look bleak after a long poor run but we are not tailed off completely, not even looking for snookers. We ARE one win away from mid-table.
It may be easier and more productive to think about how we organise to find that one win rather than tear ourselves apart with recriminations.
If a certain player had taken half of his chances, then GS would not be under this pressure.
Harry Redknapp wasn’t too pleased with Darren Bent’s miss in yesterday’s game, because such things get managers the sack if they persist. Alfonso Alves is the root behind the rot. We all get paid to do our job and an off day is very acceptable, but not half a season.
I hope he repays all the faith and trust that GS has placed in him starting at Wolves.
At the start of the season GS said he had money for another player. Where has that money gone?
He has tried to make his team and in the process sold Lee Catts and George Boats, the very players with heart. I am just feeling sick of going over this shambles.
I could go on for ever where GS has gone wrong but its not making me feel any better. GS, Gibbo and Lamb, you sort this mess out. The whole of the world sees how bad the Middlesbrough side look.
Time for Plan B because praying is not working. I do it before very game.
I'll admit that the thought of Southgates policy on bringing pace, energy, and youth to the Boro squad excited me as that was what was lacking in the McClaren reign.
Although we now have this when we have a fit squad, we now lack leaders on the pitch, we need a blend of youth and experience, a mixture of pace, energy, and players who can organise and control the game.
With the transfer window open and the obvious lack of depth in the squad it has been stated that we have no money to spend, so why have we not brought in anyone on loan when the teams around us are doing that very same thing? Look at West Brom, without their loan signings on Saturday, they wouldn't have been the same team!
Sort it out Southgate!
Turn it around! For Gods' sake, people give your head a shake. How on earth can he turn it around. He is lost! He cannot motivate players, cannot pick a settled side, cannot change a side when we need it.
I sat amongst West Brom fans on Satuday and they were laughing at us; telling me that we were the worse sad they had seen all season. Did you see Southgate standing on the sidelines biting his bottom lip whilst Mowbray was kicking every ball? Turn it round? He couldn't turn round in bed!
AV: to find that one win the answer is simple - Gibson has to put his hand in his pocket and get us some players, even if only loans. We need fresh legs.
I would pick up a squad list of every major club in Europe and scan it for:
1-2 Strikers
1-2 Central Midfielders
There must be some players with experience who aren't getting games. In fact, anyone fit! Sod experience even - that young lad Simpson looked handy for Brom.
"In the Long term I hope Gareth remains with the club as his current apprenticeship will serve him well but like any apprentice he needs a skilled and qualified tradesman to learn his art from." ---
Well said Redcar Red. A reasoned & balanced post.
AV and every man and his dog writes "We are one win away from mid-table". Yes, but so is everyone else down there, they all get to play games and pick up points as well, which if you look, this is what they have been doing.
Turn it around and look at it realistically; we are in fact just two games away from being cut adrift from safety. We probably need to win almost half our remaining fixtures to stay up.
Unless the defence suddenly become organised, or we suddenly start banging in goals for fun, or the management team suddenly develop some idea of tactical awareness that previously seemed to be missing, I would suggest we are relegation certainties.
The way out of this is buy 2 defenders, a midfielder and a forward. If that means selling Downing and O'Neil, then go for it. For the record I would suggest Bullard who is going to be allowed to leave Fulham, a strong bid for Sami Hypia, who despite his age would bring Wheater on leaps and bounds and bring control to the rest of the defence, Bale is having a bad time at Spurs and may be available and Kris Boyd can leave Rangers for the same price as we would get for O'Neil.
All but Boyd are experienced premiership players and would settle in, as Boyd probably would. We won't go for these type of players though because I think we are accepting probable relegation and the board do not want to increase the wage bill for a Championship season. Any new signings we might make will be Championship class and will be with next season in mind.
I see Gate has asked Halsey to look at Digard's challenge to see if he will overturn it. I think it highly unlikely in light of the focus on two footed challenges in recent weeks. It was some 80 yards from us but Halsey was very close and the response was instant.
As stated elsewhere we are now very thin in central midfield. We can point to the injury to Walker but if he was so highly rated why did he warm the bench for 20 matches. Either he wasnt good enough or the club got it wrong. Arca and Shawky as a partnership doesnt inspire confidence as there is no drive or pace. Apart from midfield problems we cant score and we cant defend.
I am going to repeat what I have said before, this run of poor league form has been going on since Dec 04. We have had very poor spells under both Mac and Gate but there are better times to have a bad run.
Living away from planet Boro I have seen the same situation at Derby, Forest, leicester, Coventry, Soton, Leeds, West Ham, Blackburn, Bolton. Even Everton, Villa and Spurs. Apparent mid table security slipping into relegation dogfights.
Somtimes they get out of it and turn the situation round, Everton, Villa, Bolton, Blackburn. Sometimes they go down and come back such as West Ham. Sometimes they YOYO, Derby. Sometimes it just gets worse Leeds, Leicester, Coventry, Soton.
The current situation is very serious. Our current downturn has coincided with teams putting better runs together. One positive is that Hull have taken over bottom spot in the current six match form table with one points compared to our two. Another 36 matches and we will be level on points!
Unless something dramatic happens in the Window then we have the current squad to get us out of trouble. It is likely we will have the current management team because it is pointless bringing in anyone new with no time to get the odd player in, they certainly wont get all the players fit again by waving a wand. And who would come? Likely that they wont have a job because they have just been sacked or got someone relegated.
Gibbo will find it hard to sack Gate for doing what he asked him to do. In any case he is loyal to his managers. Gate is stubborn so probably wont walk until he believes he cant do anymore. In either event it is likely our fate will have been sealed.
So what can we do? Just try and get behind the team.
Implications? If things do go badly wrong we wont be getting £15m for Downing in a fire sale. Spurs look to have got their left sided midfielder from Wigan. Nobody else has come in for him so it is likely that would be several million lost but it is worth the gamble to stay up.
But there are sixteen games left, I think we will need six wins and a couple of draws. A point a game would probably see us down - that also goes for several others near the bottom. The difficulty is that, ignoring the big boys, it is reaching the stage where a point isnt good enough from teams around us.
A point at home to Blackburn will not get us closer to them and the same is true of the game at Citeh.
I am not even focussing on the Wolves match, the league is enough to worry about.
You're clutching at straws AV, one win away from mid-table (should we ever get one) is subsequently by definition then only one defeat away from bottom place.
Mid-table usually refers to that place where a team is neither threatened by relegation or chasing for europe.
You've already said 4 points from 30 in the last 10 games is poor by anyones standards and the next 5 games are against Chelski, Blackburn, Oman City, Wigan and Liverpool - we'll be lucky to get another 4 points even if we didn't continue with the same desperate group of leaders and players - then will we be saying don't panic with 6 points from a possible 45?
**AV writes: I am not saying for a moment that we are safe, invulnerable or will stay up by any mystic pre-ordained process. I am not saying we are good -right now we a shambles - nor am I minimising the obvious problems. Neither am I chanting some mantra in defiance of the facts.
I am saying we are down but not out. We are not doomed. We are not cast adrift. And we are one win - one spawny goal - from buying breathing space, stemming the collapse of morale. Does that make my a ra-ra?
I was at the match on Saturday (won't be going this week end). AV and IG are correct about the 'getting sacked in the morning' chants were from our section but before that I thought our fans were very vocal and loyal and cannot really be critised for their the outburst.
As we are now down to bare bones and without our best midfield player for 3 weeks, (well not just the best but the most honest and hard working), why not go for broke.
I would like to see the 4 centre backs across the back line ( we have to start showing some steel) and incorporate Alves, Mido and Sunli in the side.
Whilst we are all angry with Alves's misses, he must have something as he's always in the right positions, hopefully he may still turn out to be our saviour.(Alright I know!)
I don't think we've started with the 3 top 'strikers' together, so why not give it a go.
Back to Saturdays game, only Turnbull, Riggott (whilst on the field) and Digard came out of the match with any credit,
Finally I think something should be done by the powers that be into the referees actions during the Digard sending off, if an official was man handled like Digard was, he'd be in big trouble.
Well all i can say is "its a good job were not selling our best players or we would be in trouble". I know i am being cynical but where are these "quality players" southgate keeps going on about? If they were half as good as he says we would not be in this situation.
The worth of Downing, Tuncay, GON, Mido and the Goal Machine will not amount to £15m if we go down. And who wants to buy players who dont perform consistently anyway?
Tthe writing has been on the wall since early season and no issues have been addressed,the manager and coaching staff are bereft of ideas and listening to southgate after the match on saturday,he sounded like a drowning man clutching at straws.
It may already be to late to save ourselves but surely the players owe us some effort to get out of this. Its just our luck man city have decided to buy kaka they could have had the goal machine for half the price they paid. Ho hum.
AV is absolutley right in stating we are one win from mid-table, in fact we're two wins from ninth spot. Which is miraculous given we haven't won in weeks.
The problem for me isn't so much how near of far from safety we are ,its the teams form and confidence. We're in a tail spin, one which is going to be incredibly hard to get out of.
AV, must be a record amount of responses after the disasterous result on Saturday.
I have noticed a few of the posts touching on the subject of bringing in someone to help GS get the club out of the mire. This is something that I have been thinking about all weekend, and you know what ? I personally think that someone should be a person that can come in at short notice and kick ass. Cue Bruce Rioch.
I think my comments will cause a stir of disbelief amongst some of the Boro faithful, but I honestly believe that some of our so called superstars need a short sharp shot of discipline; and who better to do it than Brucie. I can't think of anyone else who will put the fear of JC up Mido.
I am not saying that GS has to go, and I am not saying that BR should be brought in full time, but as a short term panacea, it might be a solution that can get Boro out of the current dire situation.
Whatever plans Gibbo has in mind, it can't go on like it is at the moment. Let's hope he chooses wisely on the way ahead.
Just for a bit of light relief an a more balanced national view of our plight - have a look at the Robbo Robson Blog on the BBC website, and read the comments at the bottom.
There seems to be a general consensus that we wont go down, and we are actually quite liked. (whether this is because we gift 3 points to every other club at the moment is debatable)
Address here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/robborobson/2009/01/boro_on_the_brink.html
Personally I feel Gareth needs to do a bit more shouting, something that doesn't come across in his nature, stop messing around will silly systems and get back to 4-4-2 with players in sensible positions. It worked earlier in the season before we started messing with it - we can't afford panic buys at Boro so we have panic strategies and formations instead.
The one loss of form I can't understand is Tuncay - as you allude to in your blog AV - I know you don't like to single out individual players, but any idea as to the issue there?
**AV writes: There have been whispers that have may have been distracted by suggestions of interest from a CL club .... but of course that is just gossip.
Well what a complete disaster. For the first time in about 6 or 7 years, I am actually worrying about relegation. But where do you start to getting points back?
The worst part about the team is the defence, it looks woeful! Where was the Wheater from last season? Huth was terrible when he came on, Taylor just cannot cut it in the premier league, yet i have to give credit to Turnbull. Also mcmahon didnt have a bad game, but he doesnt get forward enough.
Also, where are the natural wingers in the team? Playing in the centre of the park!!! Downing needs to be out on the wing, simple as that. He has one good game against a non league team, playing behind Alves, and apparently he is amazing with a free role? We need wingers! Crossing the ball, getting corners from crosses!
Play Tuncay behind Alves and lets get him the goals he can actually get. He is a natural finisher, yeah he missed a couple of chances on saturday, but who else had chances? nobody!! He is getting in the right positions, he just needs his confidence fully back, and back on the goal trail!
Wolves we will lose, Chelsea we will draw, and we will beat Rovers.
I still think we will stay up, but it is gunna be very tight. Get Riggott back alongside Wheater in defence, Poggi back, Johnson on one wing, Downing on the other, O'Neil and Shawky in the middle as they are the only central midfielders we have at the moment!
Come on Boro, come on Southgate!
AV
"It may be easier and more productive to think about how we organise to find that one win rather than tear ourselves apart with recriminations."
Agreed.
But we've been doing that individually and collectively on here, on Boro Banter and elsewhere for longer than the last ten games.
Then every weekend we go along or follow on the media and see the same mistakes being made, or new ones that even our fevered imaginations can't make up being invented. The same chronic issues run on without being addressed - or if they are addressed it's not evident where it matters, on the pitch.
The same responses from the club, the manager and the players are trotted out.
Someone above referred to Mr. Gibson as having the patience of Job. By and large, folks on here and in stadia every week make him look like he's operating on a hair trigger.
You don't follow Boro for any length of time without that certain long-suffering patina and inner reserves! And we'll go on doing it. It's our club and we all desperately want it to do well. We're hurt that it isn't.
Many of us - as is evident from here - would like that to be with Mr. Southgate in charge. Even those who don't say so more in sorrow than anger and still rate the man. Had it still been The Ex in charge I believe that the season card would have been launched at the dugout well before this.
It's clear that some folks believe that the best way to get the next win is to appoint a new manager - that's an opinion they're entitled to and they may well be right. Why should they not express it? Others will stress again all the points we've made many times before about what the current incumbent, his coaches and his team should do.
Some of us can well remember the morning of the FA Cup Semi at Villa Park when Mr. Southgate stuck the knife into The Ex in The Sunday Times so I'm sure he doesn't expect to be immune.
But how frustrating is is when all the people that put us in this hole and keep making it deeper won't stop digging, let alone start clambering out - whatever we say or do, however much brain and emotion we put into thinking of ways to get us on the up.
There comes a time when that frustration demands an outlet. There are worse and less productive ways of expressing that than on this blog.
The defeat on saturday has me worried very worried. I cannot for the life of me see where our next win is coming from... Chelsea away we can write that one off for starters, I'm not bothered about the cup and Blackburn at home is so must win its our cup final to turn up an old cliche.
I looked at the last 4 games excluding the cup and thought 7 points was a good marker, taking only 1 is just not good enough. No win in 10 games thats over 1/4 of the season without 3 points....
Looking at what can be done:
- 1st play players who want to play and play them in their right positions!!!
- Dont give players who want out the captains armband!
- sell players if you think you can get better ones in
- shore up the defence, stop conceding goals from set pieces and try man to man see what that brings.
- bring in some help, a striking coach for one to help Alves. Ive said it before and ill say it again JFH is available wants to go into coaching and would come here like a shot - get him in 2 days a week!!
- we've got this week to get over that defeat, get the players away from it all. Go to a secluded place get them all together and make them sort out their differences and dont come back till its done. Lock them in a room if need be just sort it out.....
I'm a Southgate fan and i think eventually he could get it right however the model we are trying to follow needs an experienced head at the helm. Someone who works the transfer market to find gems for nothing (Palacios £1m now going for £14m is an example)
Someone who can use experience to get these young lads playing football. I believe in what Southgate is trying to do but how long do we give him.. 2 1/2 years hes had, Allardyce got 9 months at geordies, Keane 18 months, Ince 16 games, they all have had the chance and blew it yet we persist why?
COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!
Surely now Southgate MUST go.He has had almost 3 years and we are in a far worse position now than we ever were under McClaren.
This is now his team,his backroom,and his "tactics"(I use the word loosely). Just a thought for Steve Gibson.How many season tickets will you sell at the end of the season for next season in the Championship? I for one will not be renewing mine. We are on a slippery slope and the championship will not be so easy to escape from.
So if SG will not sack GS he should do the honourable thing and resign. As for a replacement,how about Nigel Pearson, Curbishley, or better still try for the man we should have gone for before Southgate, Martin Jol.(not that I think any of these would come).
There's still 40% of the season to go.
Like everyone else, I'd prefer we were significantly further up the table and that we looked like genuine challengers for a European place finish instead of odds-on favourites to scroll off the bottom come May.
However, with 40% of the season remaining, there IS time to put things back on an even keel. As punters, we don't have access to all of the information that would enable us to take a more comprehensive view of all the factors to be juggled.
What facts we do know however, are we've got the same number of points (21) this season as we had at the same point last season. Sure, we're 4 places below where we were in the league, but as AV said, a single win - 3 points - in this league rockets you up several places. Hells teeth, Spurs single point yesterday sent them up to 16th from bottom.
It's not too early to be concerned or worried, but it's 'way too early to blind panic!
After a run like Boro's last 10, it's inevitable that we mostly see downside and it really IS difficult to see where salvation is going to come from, but there really is too much of the season left to be raising anxiety levels to a point where the prospect of regelut..., relgestat..., relevat..., relecuti...........can't bring myself to say it, becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy!
Neither Gibson nor Southgate are Nero-like characters and they'll come up with something that will stop the rot. It may be a bumpy ride, but we have little alternative but to place our faith in their ability to turn it round.
How we individually choose to protect ourselves from the more depressing prospects will fill the spectrum of opinion.
We may not qualify for Europe, but then we don't live in Gaza either!
Its a shame that we had to get rid of Luke Young and Rochemback as they would have given us more strength and stability. Unfortunately though Gibbo has run out of money and doesnt want to do a LEEDS and therefore must be prudent.
The days of signing Ravanelli are over but I agree with many on here that a striker and 2 midfielders on loan would be a good move as players on Loan have a lot to prove usually and our squad needs additions desperately.
We have not been able to field the same central 2, back 2 or front 2 for more than two games in a row this season. So that understanding built on consistency has not developed. Aston Villa are the opposite in this case as they have fielded less changes than any other side in the prem - including subs.
Refs have been good to Villa also and rotten to us going all the way back to Pompy when we were 1 nil up after a peach of a goal from MIDO then Digard was not allowed back on the pitch after getting treatment and also Mido after getting a whack in the face from Crouch went down holding his face only for the ref to play on with us down to 9 men and Pompy to score.
Tuncays overhead Goal against Blackburn onside! Hull's Giovani offside then Wheater made a clean tackle and got sent off and a pen awarded. Scholes pushing Riggott aside from making the clearance that he was in position to make so the ball drops for Berba. The list goes on and it wont even out over the season!
Mido's goals and fight earlier this season before he got injured and put behind Alves in the pecking order were great . He is the only proven Goal scorer and although some of the fans got on his case [ really helping him guys] I have reason to believe that he could be the answer up front.We havent got the strength in the middle to allow Alves a cushy role up front.
Mido should be put on and told to stay forward and give em hell. He would have put away a few of Alves's chances thats for sure!. Tuncay, Alves and Aliadierre are too lightweight upfront in the prem against strong defences.
Southgate cant help what referees do during the matches, he cant help but do as he is being told from Gibson regarding finances. He cant help injuries or surspensions that destroy consistency in team selection.
But he must stay calm and try and play to our strengths. Which is hard to do when you read these posts as it appears panic has taken over. Agreed that Wolves and Chelsea as our next matches dont help much.
AV
Take on board your view on the effect one win could do. There again we were sitting pretty 5 points clear of the drop zone after the Villa match.
An AV clone was probably sat at his IC Birmingham desk typing his thread for Untypical Baggies saying dont worry, three home wins will pull the likes of Boro into the mire. We tend to focus on us and forget the rest of the football world but however it is sliced we are in a mess.
Do Middlesbrogh not have an academy or a reserve team?
Why are we persevering with the likes of Alves and Downing? Other clubs make use of their youngsters. To get into the first team at Middlesbrough seems to take ages and yet when the youngsters do get in, they are very often sold. If Alves can't do the job then give Craddock a chance!
Whichever way one examines Boro's current plight,one must sadly conclude that the present crop of players,and the management team too,are unequal to the task of keeping the Club in the Premier League.
The lack of purchasing power at the present time within the Club,is worrying in the extreme for it inevitably means that we cannot use the cheque book to recruit players of suitable calibre to get us out of trouble.
And sadly, very sadly, one must readily acknowledge,on the evidence of their performances this season,that our 'progressive' youngsters from the Academy are finding the task beyond their capabilities at the present time.
I do not look to proportion blame for our predicament onto the shoulders of anyone within the Club for one can only do one's best, after all; and we remain,what we have always been,a small town team with big ideas - but with insufficient means to fulfill our ambitions.
AV, I don't think anyone could accuse you of being a ra ra after reading your assessment of the WBA game (OK maybe Tony Black could).
But don't you think we need an immediate change rather than playing the wait and hope game that has being going on for the last 3 months.
I've already mention our next 5 fixtures but have you seen our last 5 games:
Arsenal (A)
Man Utd (H)
Newcastle (A)
Villa (H)
West Ham (A)
If we're not 'mid-table' by then - well you know the story...
**AV writes: Yes, realistically we need a five or six point cushion going into those. I've got us penciled in for a last day trip needing to win at a West Ham who have their deck-chairs out.
I got slated on here for my comment when Wheater said "and when I give my all for 70 minutes" or words to that effect (excuse my memory).!
Well, it seems as though most of the team must have agreed with him as they never see a game out to the finish. It's about time we got a proper fitness coach who can get them to work for 95 minutes. All the other teams seem to be able to do this. Why not BORO???
Also, the BORO is supposed to be a team owned by the supporters and people of the area. Well those people are saying Southgate and company out, so the people paying his and the other coaches wages have spoken.
Come on Gibson, save the BORO while you can.
Also add this to my last comment. Why the heck did Southgate bring on a defender for a defender when we were chasing the game (Matthew Bates for Tony McMahon)? We had Johnson and Emnes on the bench. Does this guy really not have a clue about how to change a game with substitutions.
I would rather see us beaten 3-0 while going for the draw/win by bringing on attacking players. What is the point of bringing on a defender? Is that so we can hope to be only beaten by a single goal?
I suggest Southgate gets a library card and loans some books on coaching and tactics.
...does anyone have Terry Venables phone number?
I will call him personally and tell him the Teesside public need a second coming!, as I am sure he has (again) what it takes to save us.
Who knows, maybe he would like the job on a full time basis. Could do a lot worse!
...and last but not least. Do not send Craddock back out on loan.
Luton boss Mick Hartford said "Tom's come into the football club and he's a great kid, with an infectious attitude and he wants to become a footballer. We would love to extend it and keep him here for a bit longer."
Maybe we need someone with an infectious attitude, who is scoring a goal every other game. Can't be worse than the forwards we are playing now. Come on and give the lad a go. I think BORO fans would really get behind him and spur him on to greatness.
Southgate's words are now meaningless, and I'm sure they are to the players too.
This shows in the performances. He says "get back in the winning habit" what planet is he on? Planet Brownlee? And why give SD the armband? Can you imagine at work, someone who wants out, telling you what to do? I know what I'd say. Tthe comments from the players say it all.
Southgate really is a dead man walking, but is it all his fault? He signed the goal machine, but he cant help him missing every chance going.
We've cut back on spending and wages, thats bound to have some affect
COME ON GIBBO, TIME TO SORT OUT THIS SITUATION. COME ON BORO
I have been trying to find a way to sum up my feelings towards Gate, after speaking to my son it came to me in a flash of inspiration.
I have seen many incumbents from Raich Carter onwards at the Boro so have witnessed many different styles (from outside the inner sanctum obviously and I have no experience of managing a football team so this is based on instinct).
Having watched Robbo lose and Mac alienate the crowd it pains me to see Gate struggle. He appears to be making the same mistakes as previous managers with irrational team selections. The mantra of Square Peg Round Hole is not new. The problem of getting players to perform is not new. Grumpy players certainly are not a modern invention and neither are the Chicken Runners.
It is like watching my son and daughter relearn everything I went through. They seem to want to reinvent the wheel. You share their successes and their disappointments but you so want them to do well.
That sums up our dilemma. We want him to do well but he keeps falling off his bike!
I admire the way that Southgate has kept Downing and O'Neil at the club. He knew that the fans were not happy when he sold Luke Young last year and now he has done what he thinks the fans want.
I think it is true that we need to keep our best players, but that does not mean that we have to keep ALL our players at the club.
Players I think we should get rid of and replace with better are Mido and Julio Arca. Both players are prone to injury and give nothing to the team. Arca waddles about like Quasimodo and plays some awful passes and Mido doesn't seem interested and seems to fly back to his homeland whenever he wants.
I think a team would buy Arca for around £3m and Mido for £5m which then leaves £8m to spend on replacing them with players willing to fight and battle.
Rumours are about that Boro want to sign Marlon Harewood on loan from Villa. I'd like to see us give him a chance, he was a very good striker at West Ham and just needs games under his belt to get going again. He would battle for the team because he wants to show that he has not lost his ability as a powerful striker. It's a risk to sign someone who has not played many games this season but in times like these Boro need to take a risk and it might just pay off for us.
That still leaves us with £8m to spend and I would go for Jimmy Bullard of Fulham for £5m and Chris Eagles of Burnley for £2m. They would both be quite hard to get but it's well worth a try.
I know it is very unlikely that we will even sign one player this month but I, and I'm sure many other fans, are hoping that we do. At the moment Southgate has my support but if he doesn't even try to bring anyone in by the end of the month then I think a managerial change is needed to give some real belief into the players at his disposal. There I said it.
Richard, surely now its irrelevant thats there's still about 40% of the season left.
Under some circumstances I would agree with you. Problem is, a few weeks ago you could have said that there's still 50% left but now it won't be long before there's 30%, 20% etc.etc.
My concern is that it can't just be put down to bad luck, injuries or whatever. As much as I admire GS and want him to succeed, what is left for him and his staff to do to turn it around or are they just waiting for a change of luck which seems to be the case. Its a bit like playing Lotto and relying on a win to pay off the Lecky bill.It aint going to happen.
I think if Boro lose at Wolves on Saturday GS MUST GO.
Also I am tired of this clap trap about Boro being a small club. Rubbish, the club belongs to a large conurbation called Teesside. As far as i am concerned with the population OF Teesside the club should be getting BIGGER crowds.
Start thinking big. SG should never have appointed GS in the first place after the UEFA CUP appearance. He should have employed an experienced time served manager, with probably GS as assistant.
I honestly don't think GS will ever make it, he is too quiet. I personally think that he does not get respect from the players, that is why we are where we are.There is obviously something wrong at the club and it needs sorting NOW!! If SG can get someone to motivate the players i do believe the team can go on a hell of a run.
"The fact remains that Boro are one win away from mid-table"
That's the most important fact on this blog. Most of the rest of it is too depressive for me. Where's the fighting spirit?
This is our first real relegation fight since the Venables season. I'm looking forward to it. Every game means something.
I hope that Southgate doesn't get the sack. I can't really see that happening. I don't think it would improve things, anyway. Southgate will get us out of trouble.
Some people actually seem to be enjoying the current situation because they can swan around saying "I told you so."
For me we are not down, not even nearly down. We have just dipped into the bottom three and yes we have had a bad run but I believe we can turn it around.
We have some good players, are creating chances and are due a bit of luck. If we can just get a break now I think others (Hull, Newcastle, Sunderland) are starting their bad runs and we can catch them.
West Brom was bad and I think Boro were poor at Fulham too but apart from that I don't think we have been turned over in those ten games and but for better finishing should probably have beat Newcastle, Sunderland and Hull.
Daft as it seems, I still don't think we are that far short. We need to keep our chins up and keep fighting.
COME ON BORO!
I said last week that this game wasn't make or break but I wasn't even considering a 3-0 thumping.
So where do we go from here? Worst case scenario is we go down, Downing will leave (unfortunately) as will O'Neil (not bothered), Mido (good) and Tuncay (oh well, at least we'll get a fee for him, relegation clause notwithstanding) but I would like to think that the rest would stay.
Which means a prospective firs choice team of Turnbull, Hoyte, Wheater, Huth, Pogatetz, Emnes, Digard, Walker, Johnson, Alves, Aliadiere and with some decent cheap support players why should we not finish top 7 minimum?
I can dream.
Ian Gill said:
"That sums up our dilemma. We want him to do well but he keeps falling off his bike!" Think we need some stabilisers urgently!
In the meantime before the stabiliers in the form of Rioch or El Tel arrive, lets play square pegs in square holes and round pegs in round ones. Why send Craddock back out on loan, lets face it he can't do any worse than the present incumbents.
I said over 18 months ago to play Tuncay Inside Left in the old Bolo role (a tip from a Turkish Taxi driver in Dusseldorf who was a big Tuncay fan) and still believe that is his best position. Meantime Stewy on the Left and Jinky on the Right with whoever is fit enough to play in the middle with Tuncay.
Defensively Ross and Macca pick themselves then its Wheats, Riggs and Poggi. Up front Craddock and whoever else can be bothered to make an effort for 95 minutes, sadly Mido has reverted to type and mentally isn't strong enough for the challenge and AA has a flat battery. I'd even give one of our centre halves a go up front to put the physical bite in and to meet at least some of Stewy's crosses.
Last desperate but maybe acceptable punt is to bring JFH in as a Striking coach. Again no experience but no embarrassment to Gareth either but would at least put a rocket up some backsides and sort a few attitudes who are clearly selling Gareth short. One thing is for certain if nothing changes then I reckon on no more than another 8 points between now and May.
Capello transformed the England set up on and off the pitch purely and simply because of the absolute respect that players and pundits have for him.
Southgate and Coops, apart from a fans perspective for the great servants they were, simply do not have this because they are novices at their profession.
Neither AV, me nor anyone on this board would be able to be motivated or to hold any respect for someone coming in and holding a job above us that we knew them to be totally unready and totally out of their depth for. This is a key reason as to why many of the players here under-perform so much.
Training wise as a coach, tactics and man motivationally wise as a manager, these people were simply elevated too far and too soon.
To have put so much faith in these people at such a virginal stage in what may well one day turn out to be glorious managerial or coaching careers was a catastrophic mistake by an arrogant chairman who simply thinks that he has the right to do anything he wants because of what he has achieved in the past.
Gibson was a great chairman but his time is up. It was Gibson that put these people in charge and it was Gibson who stuck by them to the bitter end and so it is Gibson who must take the blame. It is time for Southgate to go. It is time for Coops to go. It is now time also for Gibson to go.
This club needs a fresh new start in order not to simply exist year in, year out either in the relegation zone or perennially looking over its shoulder at it as it bites our back side.
No one should be gloating at this situation and no one should be saying I told you so. What the hell for ? I have never seen the point of fiddling as Rome burned. All we can do is hope that we don't get relegated and really live to regret the day these people were appointed as we look at the Premiership from the cold, cold Championship which is very, very tough to get out off, especially given the state of the clubs finances.
Could I forgive Gibson ? Yes, actually I could, as he has been a terrific chairman and if any chairman deserves to be let off it has to be him. But I could only do so if he held his hands up and acknowledged the error of his ways and sacks these people before it's too late.
Yes, stick by people. Give them the support they need in order to get through the bad times. Don't hang people simply because the masses are baying for blood, but at least have the sense to see when it's time to sack and sack he must before it's too late.
If Gibson chooses to stick with Southgate and Co and we go down the he should go down as well and stand aside.
TB
I did not realise how devastating this defeat would be for you but keep the faith.
We (WBA) went 10 games without a win but we seem to have turned the corner with no money to spend either!
Some people have squealed about doom, gloom and impending relegation all the way through a brilliant golden era for this football club.
They have whined at Wembley (several times), they moaned on the way back from Cardiff saying it was papering over the cracks, they bellyached all through Europe and since then all day every day they have predicted the sky was going to fall in.
We have bad runs every year. Last year we went ten without a win. Under McLaren I think we lost seven in a row. Under Robbo we lost eight in a row (possibly twice). It happens at a club like Boro and has for as long as I can remember.
The important thing is not to panic and especially for Steve Gibson not to panic. If he reacted every time the knee-jerkers started to squeal we would be on our 17th manager in 12 years by now.
The way I see it we probably need 19 points for safety but might get away with 16 or 17. We have 16 games left. We are in a bad patch but it is hardly Mission Impossible.
There are too many tactical genius computer game and fantasy football managers on here and not enough people who support the team and enjoy the experience.
From the BBC website report on the Liverpool-Everton derby this evening:
"But with three minutes remaining, Yossi Benayoun conceded a needless free-kick and an unmarked Cahill stooped to head in a fine Mikael Arteta delivery."
Ring any bells?
There are some teams you can identify who will deploy certain tactics and demonstrably benefit from them. Everton did this twice to Boro this season and who knows how often to other teams. And here they are again, calling on it to salvage a point at city rivals Liverpool.
What lessons has Gareth Southgate's squad learned from our double exposure to Everton this season? Two lessons are there to be learned - one defensive and one attacking.
Why don't we ever feel goal-scoring expectancy if and when Boro are awarded free-kicks in "Evertonian-style" danger areas and conversely, why do we concede so such situations and goals from them?
Zonal marking has been blamed for the latter, but concession of the free-kick in the first place ought to be guarded against.
You'd have thought that with Stewart Downing's ball-delivery abilities, some deliberate tactical guile such as that of David Moyes's lads could have been drilled into the Boro squad also.
It's all part and parcel of the professional game. As is time-wasting when you have to. And there are some real masters of that in the Premier League. Bolton gave us a master- class in go-slow at the Riverside immediately they’d taken a lead.
Frankly, I think that Boro under Gareth Southgate are probably too honest and naive. They need to play "dirty smart", like the more savvy outfits further up the league!
Manchester United won how many free-kicks outside the area in David Beckham's time there? Zillions! And was it accidental? Was it hell! They played to Beckham's strength to fire unstoppable bendy shots or hard-to-defend floaters into the "corridor of indecision" - murder to defend against.
Where is the evidence that Boro are doing similar? Playing to actual strengths, rather than trying to emulate Arsenal-like “pure football”, when it's clear we don't have the resources to do it that way and get results.
Ironopolis - I am wracking my brain to remember the last time supporting the team was an "enjoyable experience". More like knowing you have a dental appointment on Saturday and fear what is going to happen.
We ARE in this together. By that I mean the supporters and the Board and management, and it would be nice to believe some of the players wouldn't mind doing their bit as well (if it's OK to raise the subject).
It isn't unrealistic to ask that, if the first team strikers are not scoring, would be it any worse to have in the starting XI a second team striker (after all, the worst he could do would be not to score - so nothing lost there).
What we could do with is some evidence of spirit, of fight. Skill is something we might dream about but for the moment a bit of fight would be a good start. We are in a relegation battle and make no mistake that hard work, blood and snot will have to be spilt to get out of this position.
We have a completely denuded midfield now. Let's be honest, Cattermole and Boateng would walk into our team at the present. And don't forget Morrison, and that Brunt scored one and made one against us at WBA. Clearly not good enough for our team, awash as it is with talented, hard working and committed players with an eye for goal.
Players put into their best positions and then charged with a duty to get stuck in for 95+ minutes. We might then have a chance.
The fact of the matter is that if Boro accumulate the same number of points in the remainder of the season as they accumulated in the first third i.e. until the Everton away match (#13), they'll secure their Premier League status again next season.
We've had a lousy 2nd third to the season so far, but all that needs to be done is to match the first third and we'll do it. Beating it would, of course, be better!!
Lots still to play for.
Thanks to Johnw for putting an encouraging "external" perspective on the matter. If only your team had been so generous, John!
Have to say I agree with Tony Black here.
I did not agree with Tony's original objection to Southgate's appointment although, like him, I was underwhelmed. I gave him a chance though because not every great manager went through coaching badges etc.
But we need to act sooner rather than later. Southgate seems to be lacking something. Whatever it is, our situation has deteriorated into him picking seemingly random team selections in the hope that something will work.
I wish I could be as optimistic as some of the other fans on here, but every time I've seen us on TV over here in the states (admittedly not too many times), we've been absolute garbage. The table doesn't lie, and we have missed out on picking up points in games we should be getting something from.
Should be intresting to see what happens at Molineux next week...
Ironopolis
read my mind!
tonyblack says: "To have put so much faith in these people at such a virginal stage in what may well one day turn out to be glorious managerial or coaching careers was a catastrophic mistake by an arrogant chairman who simply thinks that he has the right to do anything he wants because of what he has achieved in the past".
I don't think that Steve Gibson is arrogant. I don't think you're justified in calling him such. As the owner of the club he is entitled to make the decisions he wants to. Let's not forget he was the guy that rescued the club in 1986. He is the man who has invested his money into the club for the benefit of club.
If you need to criticise anyone it should be us....the fans, we're the ones that have walked away from the club, we're the one's who have drifted away from his dream in what will be seen as a golden age for Boro. We're the ones that are constantly moaning!
I think it's well documented that Southgate was Hobson's choice for Gibbo. He is hamgstrung by the current economic climate & by the fans lack of commitment. I think he should be applauded for having stability in a world that is in turmoil. Ditching the manager might give a short term boost, but once you start doing that you don't stop. If we need to change then do it in the summer.
And can I ask you a question what do we do without Gibbo? Who steps in? You? Who would want to buy Boro? Who would want to invest in a Club & keep it Teesside?
AV - what's all this on Murdoch-News about us having a bid rejected for Ben Watson of Palace? Any truth in the rumours, or indeed are there ANY rumours for desperate fans to cling onto like limpets?
On the subject of 2nd team strikers, it's a nice principle, and one that should be tried out. Step forward.... Marvin Emnes. I remember the hype when he was signed. Incase you've forgotten, here is another infamous GS quote:
"We feel we have signed an exciting young player in Marvin." Southgate added: "He can play anywhere along the front line, so he has versatility to go with pace, energy and technical skills.
"Marvin is very enthusiastic about coming to England and the challenge of Premier League football. He also fits the profile of the sort of players we want at Middlesbrough in that he is young player with hunger, energy and pace."
Young, hungry, energetic - aside from the first do you notice any of these qualities in our team at the moment? And yet both him and Jonno sit getting splinters!
Here is another Southgate quote, referring to Riggott::
"I have said to him that I have learnt a lesson. I left him out on reputation and we lost. I said that that will not be the case next season. I learned I need to pick the players on form, so it is much more open now.
"That does not mean I guarantee anyone first-team football, but he maybe thought it was an uneven playing field last year and that won't be the case from now on. "
I'm sorry, I just don't see people being given a chance - we need fresh impetus. Against Chelsea why not play Alves and Emnes up front together, Tuncay and O'Neill in midfield, Jonno and Downing on the wings. If GS wants a 451 then Emnes drops to right wing, Jonno to left and Downing inside left with Tuncay and O'Neill making up the 5.
At least we would have pace, energy and hopefully some decent counter attacking flair. It can't be any worse than now.
**AV writes: Ben Watson latest in tonight's Gazette.
Dave Morrison and Redcar red could'nt agree more bring in JFH but if it's only for two days a week make sure he clocks on at 3'o'clock on Saturday.
Anyone having a go at Gibbo needs to give their head a shake. He has delivered. There are some very short memories.
Petrus, your points are as valid as mine but I really don't think that Gibson would have put a Southgate type figure in charge of his Bulkhaul empire.
Where does the buck stop at this club and how long can people fire out that old chestnut of " people have short memories? "
I don't have a short memory and I know exactly what Gibson and Co have done for the club and for the area as a whole but I just want to kick on bit by bit rather than just stagnating and eventually falling through the trap door into oblivion. I'm just not happy being in this league for the sake of the status.
People can rightly have a different way of thinking and that's great. Mine is simply that I don't see this so called " stability " as being anything but an excuse to say that we are basically going nowhere and are happy with our lot.
Ok, so the Southgate experiment hasn't worked and I can fully accept that Gibson had a good plan for the future based on all the facts that he had at his disposal about now and the future and so that's why he put him in.
I wouldn't have done so, but Ok, he gave it a shot and yes we all make mistakes. But it is clear that this plan hasn't worked and that action needs to be taken and for the life of me I just can't understand why Gibson can't see it.
I have been to loads more games this season and all I ever see is a manager in a blindfold hoping to pin the tail on the donkey and to strike lucky with one of his formations.
Alves had a cracking reputation before he came here and I was so excited by his arrival after seeing all the clips of him on you tube e.t.c and I think that this total lack of form reflects totally on the Southgate and the goings on at club training ground.
SOUTHGATE MUST EITHER WALK OR GET THE SACK AS HE'S JUST RUBBISH AS A MANAGER AND COACH.
" JUDGE ME THIS SEASON " Gareth Southgate
TB
The writing was probably on the wall until the last two games last season when we faced a cup-distracted team and a rudderless ship. This threw us a lifeline but unfortunately the underlying message seems to have been pushed aside by the gasps of relief.
It also papered over some notable cracks, especially our striker's last game hat-trick against a team that had long given up by that point. It must have made him think that EPL defences aren't really a problem. That was until the serious business began again in August.
On the bright side Championship defences may be as flimsy as Eredivisies'.
Ex-Grangetown John
I wanted to leave the ground early on Saturday as I was about to burst with frustration. This was from a man who has always stated 'you stay to the end no matter what'.
When I say early, it was 25 past 4. I said to my sons, shall we leave now. One of the replied 'I'm not leaving dad, just because they've given up, doesn't mean I have to'.
From the mouths of babes. I stayed until the end and went home a very proud man.
Lunchtime and 99 posts on the Blog. Is there a gold watch and a fanfare for being the 100th or do you automatically cut to a new topic "what I prepared earlier"?
AV writes: Ooooooh.... close but no cigar! You've done an Alves, thought too much about it, hesitated and missed a sitter.
So Tony Black thinks Sir Steven Gibson of Teesside should leave the club, for having the audacity to appoint the manager of his own choice.
Well here is a thought for you Tony. When he does leave, will he be expecting the club to repay the £60m Bulkhaul has put into the club since 1986 ? If you think the club are in a mess now, imagine them having to find that cash in a hurry ! By my estimates, we would need to sell the entire starting XI.
On the pitch, it seems that anything that could possibly go wrong, is going wrong at the moment. Oh for a little assistance from lady luck soon. You know the sort of thing, striker stood 3 years offside but no flag is raised. He then has a speculative strike at goal which seems unlikely to go in, before a deflection helps it nestle in the bottom corner. If that could happen 5 minutes into a game, against an opposition side who are already lacking confidence, even better !
I read today that a "big spending" team from the North of England have recently spent a huge sum of money on a Brazilian footballer. It turns out that he is not particularly happy, & has done a runner back to Brazil within 6 months of arriving. Now where have I heard that story before ?
Back on Teesside, it seems that the club have found a few quid to spend in the transfer market after all. A bid for Ben Watson may suggest that the club was being economical with the truth when they pleaded poverty in December. Let's be honest, it is hardly a first from the management at the Boro. Considering the nett spend of very little over the last 12 months, combined with 7 Million wiped off the wage bill, there was always going to be something available if needed.
On the other hand, it may be that a Mido or O'Neil will shortly be on the move. Given those two particular players performances in the last year, it would be no real loss. We are all aware that another midfielder is needed to help the team improve, but whether Watson has the quality to be influential in the PL remains to be seen.
Losing Digard for 3 games seems like another big blow to the side. Him & Turnbull have been the big positives from the playing staff this season, in my opinion. It seems time for some of their teammates to awaken from their winter slumber & show the quality on the pitch that we are fully aware they possess. Yes Mr Downing, Sanli, Wheater, O'Neil, I am referring to you !!!
Smoggy In Exile said: "I'm sorry, I just don't see people being given a chance - we need fresh impetus. Against Chelsea why not play and Emnes up front together, Tuncay and O'Neill in midfield, Jonno and Downing on the wings. If GS wants a 451 then Emnes drops to right wing, Jonno to left and Downing inside left with Tuncay and O'Neill making up the 5".
"At least we would have pace, energy and hopefully some decent counter attacking flair. It can't be any worse than now".
Can someone at BORO hire Smoggy In Exile to select the team for the rest of the season. This is exactly what we need. It may shake things up a bit. I can't for the life of me see why we wouldn't try these guys who have been warming the bench. I would certainly think they want the chance to shine and prove the manager wrong in not picking them.
Also I rate Adam Johnson. He takes people on and gets in the box. Maybe Alves would like balls played into feet or parried to him more than long balls and crosses, when he clearly is not the best header of the ball. This could possibly bring his goal scoring form back.
Come on Southgate. If we are destined to go down, let's do it in a blaze of attacking football, not a whimper!
AV - I have to take you to task over your ridiculous comment about Boro being 1 win away from 12th.
Statistically that is correct - in practice it is not. One win can only take you up that far if none of the intervening clubs win - just about half the league - so it is impossible and therefore utter rubbish.
Maybe four or five of those sides can be relied upon to lose because they play the top five (although just about anyone can pick up a draw at Anfield this season except Boro of course) but the others will have games against each other so at the very best would draw.
While Boro play at Chelsea in their next PL game WBA are at home to ManU so hopefully will not pick up anything but Spurs host Stoke and Blackburn face Bolton and Sunderland have the visit of Fulham so Boro could easily be alongside Stoke and West Brom three points adrift of the rest after their next game and by this season's standards those three could then be described as "adrift".
You also say that it proves that the poorer sides have "levelled up" to join us as middle-of-the-table sides. I would contradict that and say that throughout the PL this season we see a serious decline in quality - even Chelsea and Arsenal have declined to such an extent that Liverpool and Villa have caught them.
And it is not the case that the new sides this season are significantly better than those coming up in the previous seasons just that the whole standard has dropped and Boro's fall is amongst the most serious - as anyone attending games this season can see quite easily.
Portsmouth are the other side suffering a major drop in standards but they have just acquired £30m and have nearly two weeks to use it to acquire enough quality to at least maintain their present points advantage over us.
That is the most annoying aspect - Boro are the worst performers of a totally dreadful standard of competition. Make no mistake Boro are in the right place in this league and still heading downwards.
One win from the last nine home league matches tells its own story.
Ben Watson? Championship player for a soon to be Championship club.
We are in huge danger of going the way of Leicester and Forest and dropping through the divisions.
This is not an over reaction, it is reading between the lines. In the richest ever premiership season, we have spent less than ever before. So the money is not going to be there next season either, is it? Nor are the crowds, nor will any quality players come to Boro.
I am not blaming Gibson for not putting his hand in his pocket again however we have assets in Downing and O'Neil that have not performed this season, do not want to be here and will raise enough to improve the team in every area.
WE HAVE TO WIN NEARLY HALF OF OUR GAMES TO STAY UP! We will not do this with the current squad.
Watching Alves at the weekend, I saw a man devoid of any of the steel necessary to make it in the toughest league in the world.
His header against the bar would have been in the back of the net had both eyes been on the ball rather than having one watching the defender about to come in and clatter him. He probably is a good finisher, but he really doesn't like being kicked. If the powers in Europe who have slowly but surely been turning our beautiful game into a none contact sport ever get their way, then he'll probably be knocking in seven a game for us too !
I'm not worried about the rest of the season, I've decided that even if we go down, I'll be dumb enough to get another season ticket and be sitting there watching dross next season, so I refuse to let the darn game and my love of the club ruin my life.
RE: Jaguar Boy and AV's comments on Tuncay's form.
I've been saying to my mates for the last couple of weeks that ever since the "Tuncay to Chelski for £8m" stories he's looked a shadow of the player he was for the first few months of the season.
Don't know if that's cause or coincidence...
Despite the problems, I don't think the chants of Gibson out would be exactly justified at the moment - but his strength is also his weakness (ie pathological loyalty to managers).
Tony Black says that Gibson should go - but in practical terms this would mean finding someone with at least £70m to pay back his investment, plus they would more than likely not be a Boro fan or a football man.
Personally, I still can't get my head around somebody actually owning my club - in reality it means the fans are nothing but serfs beholding to the benign Lord Gibson.
I would much prefer to have a system like Barcelona where the fans own the club and elect a president or Chief Executive - though with our current debt to Gibson it would mean that 70,000 Boro supporters would need to stump up £1,000 each.
I also hate it when people say that Steve Gibson can do what he likes because it's his club - without the fans he only owns a stadium and a group of players.
A football club has long-standing and deep roots to the Town or City where it is based and nobody should ever think they own that club - they are just the guardian and main investor at a particular point in time.
In his article today 'Keeping the Faith' AV gives a sound, sensible, hard -headed realistic presentation of Boro's status in the Premier League. I go along with all that he says in relation to expectations, finance and direction of the club.
What is galling though is the lack of 'footballing' progress under GS. I expect Boro to occupy the middle or top half of the table and as a bonus, have good Cup runs, everything else is beyond our reach financially.
However, what we have seen this year is sloppy football, careless defending, abysmal finishing, limited tactics, poor organisation. Our problems are less to do with money or the lack of it but more to do with morale, purpose, choosing the right players, team ethos. I could go on.
Teams like improving Fulham and consistent Everton are disciplined, organised functional, play good competitive football.... all I want is for us to attain that standard.There has not been improvement and progress since 2006 and I believe, despite the rhetoric from Gibson the ambition and fervour to improve upon Eindhoven has diminished.
We are going back to the Boro of my childhood, being comfortable with mediocrity and second best, which is why it took us twenty years from 1954 to 1974 to get out of the old second division.
I am old enough to remember those dull times but I sense we are heading back there and that will be it for many supporters. I spent all my formative years watching Boro in the Second Division, brightened only by watching Cloughie -who quickly realised the measure of the club and wanted out. Are we reverting to type?
AV, I have just read your article under the headline "Keep the faith - we can stay up" and I think you could make out a pretty good case for a snowball's chances in Hell, if you turned your mind to it.
Perhaps you should devote the rest of your life to the redemption of lost souls? Your reward would be in Heaven, rather than a continuing presence in what must be a truly hellish Riverside press-box.
**AV writes: We CAN stay up. It won't be easy, it will probably be frustrating, scrappy, stuttering and chaotic but it is perfectly achievable. We have 21 points now and I think 38 may be enough for safety. That means 17 points from 16 games. It is not exactly climbing Everest in your shreddies is it?
We have players coming back from injury and we have games against Blackburn, Man City, Spurs, Portsmouth, Stoke, Bolton and Hull before the tough run in starts and even that includes Newcastle and West Ham.
They are all sides with their own problems and I believe we can enough points there to halt the slide, grind out some breathing space and give ourselves a fighting chance of clawing the odd point elsewhere and escaping the drop spots.
Surely that is not impossible. Maybe we should just resign from the league now.
TB,
The only way that the model dosnt work is if Boro are relegated. We have no idea what the clubs level of status is ie... 17th will see us make profit or balance the books with a cup run with two home games or a sell on fee for an ex player etc. We have no idea how the books are balanced just a figure of what we owe (£93m)
What we are doing now is paying for the years of big spending and staying in the Premier League. What we are doing is hedging our bets against three other teams being worse than us and us surviving.
I dont want to watch that season in season out and thats why I dont go to many games. Fair play to the people that do but I've got better ways to spend £450 and as the global resession takes hold so will far more supporters, not just at Boro but at other clubs.
Gibbo is the right chairman for Middlesbrough Football Club and until Gareth Southgate walks/si sacked then he is the right manager for Middlesbrough Football Club. Surely to back up such a statement you must have a buyer in mind and a manager who is willing to come?
**AV writes: Yes, where will we find a certifiable billionaire with £100m ready cash to spend on a struggling club with low revenue streams, big debts and no prospect of hitting the Champions League jackpot.
Looking for big money buyers is last year's fans' fantasy. Now there is no easy credit to raise the cash for leveraged buy-outs and the banks want their loans back so all the white knights are trying to sell, leaving black holes of debt behind them.
More transfer-titilation for you: the Mail (alright, I might as well just make something up myself) are reporting that Mido is being hawked around to anyone listening with a price sticker saying "£4m O.V.N.O" stuck on his head.
Apparently, we're goiing to use that cash to improve our Ben Watson bid to £1.5m and then wave £2.5m at Villa for Harewood. 2 for the price of one so to speak.
Can't say I would disagree if that turned out to be true. Mind you, there's probably more chance of me becoming the next Boro manager...
Yo Bugrit!
Remember a couple of years back and we were united in our condemnation of a certain "undermining insider"? Surely the same principles apply here and now?
AV's "Keepin' the Faith" article, in a way, is like Gareth Southgate - open, honest, reflective and factual. OK, so the circumstances may not inspire a great degree of EXPECTATION, but the facts provide some present solice to those of us who haven't yet given up all HOPE.
Surely, and especially you old mate, given our shared forum stance against the Merchant of Doom, can't take exception to the benevolent intent, the sentiment AND the facts as stated in Vic's article?
Sure, we've all had a sickener these past few weeks, but now's the time for all who want a Boro-favourable outcome to be uniting and not adopting destructive factional positioning? At the risk of sounding fawning (but I'm not!), AV's article was an excellent summary of where we're at.
The problem we have is that, directionally, the results and the mood have been down for a while and while most of us would have EXPECTED some light to be emanating from the end of the tunnel in the last couple of matches aganist Sunderland and WBA, we still seem to be plunging into darkness.
Moods can change rapidly - we just need a little encouragement. All AV has done for the benefit of those of us with HOPE, is point out that the track is still open and Boro are still on the rails.
The results of the Gazettelive poll figures state that 61% of Boro fans do not support Gareth Southgate which is quite understandable given the circumstances.
However, to make any complaint against Steve Gibson is beyond belief after what he has done for both the football club and the region. He gave us the Premiership and many magical occasions that would still be a pipe dream if it wasn’t for his unwavering devotion that has crowned so many years.
He also gave the manager many millions to buy a striker who is at the heart of this decline. Alves has had enough goal scoring chances to have entered double figures from tap in’s. Even Gareth Southgate would have scored the majority of headers Alves has missed by a wide mile. He's been utterly useless which is putting it mildy, but it points the finger at the main culprit.
There are plenty of games left for the Boro to move into the comfort zone. However, what good is the appointment of another manager going to bring, if Alves stays consistent? I hope Gareth Southgate remains in charge and it soon blows over with the right results.
There is an interesting split of opinions.
There are those who say dont panic and those who say panic early to avoid the rush. The vast majority are in the middle and mightily concerned.
We are on the crest of a slump and make no mistake about it. I think I posted earlier we may need 6 wins and a couple of drwas to stay up but we may need 40+. Those figures are academic if we dont start winning soon.
Very early on the thread I talked about the cyclical nature of life for medium sized clubs. Most go into some sort of a slide and take a long time to recover - Leeds, Leicester. Others bounce back and restablish themselves - West Ham. Some YoYo - Derby, Baggies. Others avoid the drop and go on to better things - Bolton under Sam. Even some of the bigger clubs flirt with the trapdoor - Everton, Toon, Villa.
Gravity plays its part and we are like Tom the cat where our claws are tearing into the metal as we slide down the side.
People ask what happened to the legacy of Eindhoven? This is it as the club rebuilds an ageing, top heavy, highly paid squad. That season saw our league form collapse and it hasnt recovered as the club moves to Gibsons new, slimline model for MFC.
Shouting sack the manager during matches is not the way forward but it is reasonable to use this medium to pose all these questions that we play station managers would like answering or see evidence that they had been addressed.
We dont know what goes on at MFC and can only use the evidence of our own eyes. Debate on this board is fine but once at the ground the focus should be on getting behind the team.
Will gate be sacked? Unlikely. Will he walk? Not yet. Will we go down? In with a chance but also an opportunity for some heroes. Doing nothing and hoping it comes good isnt an option, I will go and read AV's piece now.
Anyone is allowed to criticise the Chairman, I just don't think the level of criticism was justified. The fact remains that Middlesbrough Football Club is owned by Steve Gibson. I am not fully aware of it's legal status but I understand that it's a Limited Company. Steve Gibson along with the Shareholders can do what they want within the limits of the law. You can hate that statement, but it's true.
All the fans are stakeholders in that business, but we don't own it in the sense of shareholding or it being a sporting club like Barcelona, we own it in the same we that we used to put into the tills of Woolies, they are institutions. The problem is that when you stop spending money there, they fail....
Gibson as an owner & guardian of MFC has been exceptional, Period! My point is that it us the fans that have let the club down....not Gibbo letting us down. He has more to lose than anyone else, more money than most of us could dream of.
Southgate was given a mandate by Gibson to refresh the squad, trim the wages to match the income.....that's determined by us the fans. It might take a little time to implement but Boro could be the model that most smaller clubs follow, Healthy Academy, Re-Generated Fan Base including young fans with realistic pricing. It might even become a business that makes money!
If Boro are struggling with finances then a hell of a lot of other clubs will be as well. Whatever happens I think that we'll be stronger in the future.
Ian Gill is spot on when he says its time to get behind the team at the Riverside, or indeed away. we're in the mire and its time to pull together. We need maximum effort and commitment from players and full blooded support from us fans. Great article from AV 'keep the faith' although I have to say I'm struggling on that one.
I'm breaking my principles and going to the Chelsea match next Wednesday. I've always avoided the Bridge as they charge silly money, but its time to show total support for the Boro.
I'll be wearing my socks I wore the night we beat Villa to reach the ZDS final, my vest on backwards and in my pocket I'll have my Graham Souness and willie Maddren autographs. We're bound to win........
I've just had time to read all the posts on this thread - just to say TB that you quite often sound credible, even though I rarely agree with you, but when I read your post that Gibson should 'go' then I know you're talking utter rubbish and your credibility is blown out of the water.
Steve Gibson is often stated as being the best Chairman in the prem. by pundits, managers, players etc. Who would you prefer to be the owner of Boro? Come on be constructive for once, give me a credible alternative.
Tony Black says Gibbo must go.
Yeah, let's get rid of the man that is responsible for keeping us at our highest possible level for a period of more than 10 years. Everybody in football agrees that he is the best chairman in the game. Who are you gonna replace him with? The second best?
There is no next level for Boro. There are 9 clubs that are so much bigger than us that we can never compete with them long term. However you measure it, whether trophies won, points achieved in the top league, seasons spent in the top flight, average attendance, size of stadium or whatever, these 9 teams are always at the top of the list... Manu, Liverpool,Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Spurs.
Our top level is 10th to 15th in the top flight, regular cup runs and the occasional top half finish. I repeat, Steve Gibson has given us this for over a decade. Gareth Southgate has achieved this in his first 2 seasons. I believe that we will achieve that this year as well. And with Steve Gibson in charge, for the next 10 years too.
Nigel
It has long been a Teesside trait that we defend our corner against the rest of the world.
The place for healthy debate is here and in the pubs, clubs and anywhere Boro fans congregate. Make no mistake I think that MFC have got some things badly wrong and continue to do so, I have commented before and will do so again. I have no compunction in highlighting areas that I think need improving. Sometimes I will be wrong, sometimes people will disagree with me. But here it stays.
At the grounds it is get behind the team. If the performance naffs me off I just leave at the end of the match. Silence is its own message without abusing the team and staff.
Nigel...
" Steve Gibson is often stated as being the best Chairman in the prem. by pundits, managers, players etc. Who would you prefer to be the owner of Boro? Come on be constructive for once, give me a credible alternative. "
For me he was the best chairman and is no longer because of his " model " which I simply don't agree with and the fact that he keeps putting these rookie mangers in that are absolute rubbish.
He is happy to just scrape by every year and to just make up the numbers in the league, I am not. I want to be entertained and at least have some hope of European football every now and then.
He didn't build on Eindhoven and I think many people would agree.
I have no room for sentiment. He has no more cash to put in ? Goodbye and thanks for everything you've done. Here, rightly, is the freedom of the town. Can we please repay you bit by bit ?
Harsh ? maybe so, but that's how it is in all walks of life and I really don't see why he should be immune. Churchill won the war and then we booted him out of office. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
You don't agree, the we will have to agree to differ.
TB
I see our friends at the FA have charged us for not controlling our players.
I suppose it was always likely to happen but how ironic that we punished for the only communal show of passion in the whole match. The other piece of irony is that we have been complaining about us not complaining.
Trying to take a positive perspective its clear that Gareth has us exasperated but he has not become a hate figure. Fortunately we all remember his exploits and commitment on the pitch with fondness and deep down we don't want to lose those memories which is to the credit of both parties.
Its unlikely he will walk and even more unlikely he will be sacked, after all he has delivered on everything he has been asked to do by the board with the one obvious exception. So what to do?
Do we barrack him and the players and by default then SG? Do we sit mute and cringe in silence, despair (as per Everton a few weeks back) devoid of all hope? Or do we get behind him with a rousing standing chorus of "one Gareth Southgate" in an effort to raise the spirits on the bench and belief on the pitch.
We all know the last one should be the preferred option, we all deep down would love to see Gareth turn things around, finish 11th and have a good Cup run. Its just that we can't see it happening.
As with any negotiating it requires a willingness to meet half way. A "win/win" in Consultant speak.
I don't think it will take much to get the fans fired up and standing back to back with the club creating a siege mentality. This is Teesside after all and we have historically been subjected to national injustices and tertiary treatment by the media and in footballing terms the FA are loathed up here with just cause and reason.
So to get the crowd boiling and passions flowing shouldn't take too much effort albeit with a deliberate and even a necessarily contrived and orchestrated stroke of genius. Get the crowd on the officials backs (forget respect, nice boys win nowt!), Get us on our feet within seconds of the kick off, let us see that the starting 11 mean business.
Over to you Gareth, meet us half way! Stop the stupid tinkering and tactics, play the players who want to play for the shirt, the pride and the Town (and yes this includes Stewy who is after all one of our own). Select on attitude not reputation or price tag. Most of all Gareth, if we go down, we go down fighting and with spirit and not a whimper.
Stop the frightened rabbit start to games, go on the offensive and show true Teesside Steel. The fans will spot it from the off. 100% effort and attitude has and will always be supported in the Boro.
COME ON BORO!
So petrus it was you I saw in the high street singing "We love you Woolies we do, we love you Woolies do..." followed by "Can you hear the Tesco's sing..."
I just wish I had that emotional attachment to businesses like I do with my football club. Football clubs are not businesses and should never be thought of as such - they should be thought of as non-profit making organisations that need running professionally in the public interest.
On the whole Steve Gibson has done an excellent job but for everybody who is in a position of absolute power he needs constructive criticism to stop him becoming complacent.
By-the-way, the Woolworth's / Boro analogy was probably not the best as Woolies was in decline for many years due to bad management before finally going out of business.
TB has been against GS from day one and it has always been quite obviously personal and subjective. I can't see how his views carry any weight. More fans may agree with him now but not for the same reasons.
He still bears a grudge because Gate got shot of his mates Missimo Maccarone and Abel Xavier. And he still can't believe his "friend" and amateur coach Slim Perroti wasn't made boss instead of a former England international and inspirational Carling Cup winning captain.
This "Gibbo must go" claptrap after every other game is a sick joke. It shows a complete lack of knowledge of Boro history and of the way the game is going.
Billionaires buying clubs are last year's thing. Now it is all selling up and fire sales. Look at West Ham, Newcastle and Portsmouth. TB would have had us bound and gagged, Gibbo out and Boro dumped into a black hole of debt with all the TV cash going in the pocket of some Yank chancer.
What Gibbo is doing may not buy warm seats and another Italian Marlon Harewood but it will keep us safe through sticky times.
TB mate, not all of us on here have short memories.
**AV writes: Now, now boys. Play nice.
Allycat at 12.28 - "...we have to win nearly half our games left to stay up...."
I'm not sure I agree. That might be right if you were looking to achieve what would normally be a "safe" points total (42 points or whatever) but I don't think that will apply this season. And, of course, one would hope in addition to the wins, to get a few draws. All points count!
This season teams in the lower half of the division (with the exception of us in recent weeks) are taking points off each other, drawing games they should win etc. That is the reason there are so many teams within a few points in the bottom half of the table. Nobody is yet adrift (unlike most years).
I suspect a lower total to stay up will apply this year. But in any event all we need to do is to get one more point than three of the teams on the same points as us already. A few more points than that and half the division is brought in to the fray.
Not too many of the teams in the bottom half of the the table are going to be winning "nearly half of the games they have left". A couple or a few might improve and play well above that which their league position currently suggests, but some will also nosedive (hopefully not us as we have done our diving already). Others will no doubt continue the level of form they have shown so far this season.
It's like the old joke of the two boys spotting a lion in the distance. One offers £500 to the other for his flash training shoes. The second snorts in disbelief. "Surely you don't think you can outrun a lion" he says as he pockets the money and his colleague puts the shoes on. As the first chap starts to run off into the distance he shouts back: "No. I just have to outrun you."
We need to get one point more than the team which finishes 18th. This season that might not require as many points as usual. And we are all still at very nearly the same place (ie no-one is separated yet from the pack, in fact only goal difference separates 5 teams on the same points at the bottom).
The lesson is that it can be done. It would not need a miracle. It DOES need the players to believe they can get something from most of the games they play. If you don't have a go, you can hardly expect to succeed. It requires good old commitment and effort and concentration for the 95+ minutes that we have mentioned many times before on this blog.
And it DOES require players to start in their correct positions. And, by the way, unless he is injured, if Adam Johnson can't get into a team so denuded of players as ours, and so lacking in positive spirit, then there is no hope for him (unless, of course, the Powers that Be decide to pick a different starting XI from now on).
If we stay up (and I have not lost all hope yet), we have a lot of things to think about for next season. They must include:
(1) Our ability to scout players and the valuations we place on them (are we looking in the wrong places, are just looking at a couple of videos or are "scouting trips" a nice long weekend abroad in a 5* Hotel on expenses rather than serious work, and why do others get players on loan who would walk into our team as it is playing at the moment?).
(2) A policy decision on buying players who are injured at the time of purchase and/or have a history of ill health and injury.
(3) Some effort to be made to identify those of our "targets" who have got the spirit or the right character. This should be compared to those with no stomach for a fight and those who are likely to have problems settling into our changing room - and indeed those with a predisposition to excessive refuelling (whether of the meaty or liquid sort). A good clue is that if a player is used to changing clubs virtually every year, he is unlikely suddenly to become a fixture in next year's club. And if he thinks Teesside is near the Arctic and far removed from southern "civilisation" it isn't a good sign.
(4) A look at our training methods to establish why we appear to suffer so many Rockliffe injuries (unless that is a club euphemism for "he spat his dummy out and didn't want to play so we'll say he was injured").
(5) A policy decision on how we value our youngsters coming through the academy and at what stage they might get a chance of a series of starts (it would be grim to see us in a lower division with players like Morrison, Brunt and even Cattermole seeming to enjoy life in a Premier League Boro had thought they were not good enough for).
(6) An effort should be made to understand some basics of the game (play to 95+ minutes, play to the whistle, don't EXPECT offsides to be given and therefore don't head the ball to the bloke you thought was in the offside position, hoof the ball into row Z if in danger rather than trying a tricky little move near your own penalty area, try to avoid giving away pointless free kicks in dangerous areas, mark up properly when defending set pieces.....).
(7) Can we spend a little time trying to find out what motivates the various players we have on our books (it may not be the same for each player) and start employing whatever it is to get the best out of them, so they can play as a team?
Actually there are more, but I am getting ahead of myself. The players have a job to do before then. It was that extra glass of Laphroaig that started this, but I have made a pact with myself that as soon as this is downloaded, I can have another.
To look on the bright side - just before this slide began, our Manager was voted Manager of the Month and some of the players were talking about Europe. Too soon, of course. It is better to talk AFTER the event than before. But if we were now playing like we did at Wigan or at Villa, we would not be in this position. So we know the players and the management COULD do it. They were doing it earlier this season. We need to go back to that.
Message ends. Islay calls.....
AV:
wouldn't we need to be in europe to play nice?
now you're going a bit too far, you tease!
premier league survival will now satisfy most of us this season
Hey chaps! The Laphroaig proved to be tastier than the football at present.
On reflection we all want the same thing here. Tony Black would be delighted to be proved wrong, to have to admit that Gareth Southgate managed to turn it around and that, as shown by the success he made in motivating the team to a glorious last third of the season (including a cup run), he proved he has what it takes to be a top manager. It isn't impossible.
The Manager, Chairman, and all the fans want us to be successful. It is too horrific to contemplate that some of the players don't want the same thing. I'd prefer to think that isn't the case. I am sure most of them would bust a gut for the cause. Of course they all should.
This is the sort of situation where, with a week off, Brian Clough and a few others would have taken the hard core of the squad he trusts away for a few days. There would be some hard words spoken away from prying ears, and some effort made to bond the players into a unit that will fight together.
Those committed to the cause would get in the team, those he wasn't sure of would not. For example, a fully committed young player desperate to prove himself and fit enough to run for ever for the cause, is likely to be better than a more senior player who doesn't give a stuff (and in case anyone misunderstands me here, I am sure Stewie will be one of those who WILL bust a gut, with Poggi, Wheats, Taylor and some others).
Some of the posts on here are the result of considerable frustration and a lot of worry.
Incidentally next to my laptop is a CD containing photos from Roma and Eindhoven. So recent yet so far away..... You would have thought it would have been fairly easy to have got an experienced manager then, for a club "on the up", with a growing reputation whose manager had just gone off to lead the national team, and whose chairman is highly thought of.
And GS could have stayed as a useful player for a year or even two, whilst he started doing his badges and brought on the youngsters around him.
After yesterday's reports that we were looking to sign Marlon Harewood from Villa, today's press says we are trying to do a swap deal with Wigan between Mido and Marlon King following a bust up with Phil Brown whilst on loan at Hull.
Who said we could no longer attract the big fish to the Riverside...
Bring back Big Jack Charlton!!!
I don't care if he doesn't play total football with 30 passes a move, the long ball tactic will do me just fine. Big Jack takes no prisoners, takes no crap from anyone and above demands respect from players.
Ok he is too old to be a realistic manager but I tell you what if someone was to come in (or even Southgate) and starts playing the long ball over the top, literally from the goalkeeper then we will grind results. Those tactics took Ireland from 100+ in world rankings to Quarter-Finals of the World Cup and for 8 years terrified even top international teams.
Fancy total football or points - i'll take the points any day.
PS, I too echo Tony Black's comments.
Holgate Ender...
I have never said anything of the kind and you obviously don't read any of my posts and just chose to defend Gates's laughable record by going into cloud cookoo land.
Have you seen the league table recently ? Have you noticed how many games we haven't won recently ? Do you see how badly we have been playing ?
The big trap door is looming and my objection to Mr Southgate and Co has always ever been this. Yes, I was against him from day one but gave my reasons for being so and have stuck by them ever since. I objected to taking such a big risk with such a novice with the very same as his right hand man Coops.
You may not agree with me and that's fine. But this board is all about opinions and to stoop to such flights of fantasy as you have done instead of giving me good reason or evidence to counter my arguments and opinion, no matter how silly you feel they are, just goes to show how lacking your arguments are.
I have absolutely no personal grudge with Southgate or Coops. As I have stated time and time and time again, excellent servants to the club, utter gentlemen and awesome pro's, but that for me is where it ends and the proof, as they say, is in the eating.
The league table never lies, " Judge me this season " Southagte said and judge him I will.The trap door is wide open and snapping at our ass and I am only interested in throwing one of the other clubs in it.
With regards Gibson, again, this is just a matter of opinion. You form part of the rose tinted, sentimental brigade that live on past glory and accept anything that happens as a result. I don't and it's that simple.
I don't have any short memory and I'm not interested in the past or debating it, I'm only interested in what happens next. In Italy they say, " when the Pope dies we make another one " and that for me is how it is.
Gibson has no more money and so adios and thanks for the memories. In any walk of life this is how it is and so I really don't accept the argument of the short memory.
How short was our memory with regards people like Churchill ? Thatcher did wonders for the Tory party but at the first whiff of losing the election she was booted out, and rightly so, as there is no room for sentiment.
I'd have the Man City men anytime over Gibson. That's just me, you see it how you want and that's just great. But let's just hope we aren't having to argue this from the Championship next season as it will then be a pretty pointless, empty and very hollow debate.
TB
TB - You have side stepped my question, name your credible alternative to Steve Gibson, if you dont have one your demand is destructive and pointless.
By the way Churchill was voted out because the credible alternative offered the punters the welfare state. What is your credible alternative offering?
Tony Black - fully agree with your comments.
Gibson has been wonderful for this club and I thank him sincerely for that, but that was IN THE PAST!!. He is now incapable of taking this club forward and has made some bad decisons to lead us to where we are. The blame firmly lies at his door, not Southgates. Gareth has done the best he can, but he simply was ill prepared to manage a premier league club and should not have been put in that role.
"Forever Dormo's" comments were also correct. When the existing manager went to lead the national team it should have been fairly easy to get a "top draw"(Mr Gibsons words - not mine!!) experienced manager when the club was "on the up", had just appeared in a European final and had a chairman supposedly highly thought of.
Mr Gibson obviously knew then than finances were looking grim - hence Southgate's appointment. You cannot run a Premier League club on a budget!! You can't even run a championship team on a budget if you want to get back into the Premier league. So, if the worst DOES happen (and I pray it doesn't) the future looks bleak.
"tony black"
You obviously don't read any of my posts but be sure that I do read yours.
I am far from a rose-tinted ra-ra foam-hander. I am a crusty old chicken runner and have been among this blog's biggest critics of both Southgate and the club's drift.
That is not my problem with you and you know it.
My problem with you is that I believe you are working to a personal agenda and have your own rather than the club's interests at heart. I believe you are bitter about what happened to your mate massimo and that ever since you have taken every opportunity to slate the club, the manager and chairman. You have a hidden agenda that is harmful to my club. I don't take kindly to that.
**AV writes: Holgate, TB has assured us that he is not 'Slim' and we must take his word for that. If you want to argue about it take it elsewhere. Let's try to play the ball and not the man on here please.
The bookies always win and the midweek game at Chelsea could well end in a draw.
However, it would be great to see a 30,000 plus crowd for the game against Blackburn and a win. We'd be first up on Match Of The day. We would also have the pleasure of watching that ex Bolton Bull Dog grinding his teeth.
We would also see Gareth Southgate blowing his beak on a screwed up P45.
Marlon King would be a great asset and good riddance to Mido.
Holgate Ender,
your point about what I would do is fair and so here it is.
I would privately send the count to the Arab community in order to find a rich buyer or set of buyers who have pot loads of cash to invest and want the qudos of owning a club of their own.
I would ensure that all deabts would have to be paid off in full for any deal to be accepted and that were the new owners ever to sell that a condition for this must be that they have to leave the finances of the club in good order.
Frankly, I don't care who owns this club as long as we don't end up doing a Leeds and that firm measures are in place so as to ensure that we don't just spend spend spend and end up with a busted flush.
Gibson has no more money and this is well documented and so is the state of the clubs finances, so where does that leave us ? Do we simply keep floating along until the gaping whole in the ship bursts completely and that we sink into the Championship ?
Where Gibson able to find 50 million and sort out the finances so that we could spend all of this on players, and if he were to sack most of the coaching staff and manager and bring in someone with a proven track record then I would be behind Gibson all the way. Of course I would as he is Mr MFC, he is Mr Boro and in the past saved us.
That was in the past though and I fail to see how he is going to resolve anything and take us forwards. This new " plan " just doesn't wash with me, that's all.
But as it stands we have no cash, the finances are in real state, we have a manager who has brough us to the brink of relegation and who seems totally unable to motivate people or to find solutions.
You keep asking me for solutions and so there you have it.
Where are yours ? Where is the current strategy that puts egg on my face and makes me eat my words because I really can't wait for that to happen ? No players leaving and none of any note coming in ? Pray tell how exactly is that " plan " going to save us ?
Please you now explain to me how Johnson doesn't get into this team PERMANENTLY ? He comes off the bench, gets busy straight away taking people on and whipping in crosses, gets the fans going, gets the atmosphere going and makes this happen and yet gets left on the bench to rot. It's pathetic. Such a waste of what is an obvious fabulous and growing talent.
And as you brought him up, yes, he's being given the Massimo treatment of no run of games and then getting slated when he has one start in his right position and then doesn't deliver. Thankfully for Johnson though HE DOES DELIVER ALL THE TIME.
Yet another reason why Southgate HAS to go. He can't even see who is best players are.
It's an absolute joke that we gave him the job and that we keep him in it.
TB
**AV writes: I should point out that it is not true to say Boro "have no money" or their finances are "in a state." It is more a case of reigning in excessive spending at a time of global economic uncertainty - a policy that a year ago may have looked like penny-pinching but now can easily be seen as being perceptive pre-emptive belt-tightening that has insulated the club from the worst of the slump.
The economy effects us all. I am not on the verge of bankruptcy and my finances are not a mess but I can see that it would be unwise and ill-timed to go out and buy a new motor when I can make do with the old banger for another year. Although to be fair I am not planning any European road trips.
I also would question whether, even if it were desirable (and I personally don't think it is), that you could find a buyer for a struggling, provincial club with very little prospect of Champions League club right now, either in the Middle East or wider afield. Certainly Newcastle and Everton couldn't and they are far bigger 'brands'.
We need a new manager. Not a new Chairman.
This is the best small town club in the world we are talking about. With the best chairman, regardless of what division we play our football in. With a Boro man in charge its always the towns club. For those seeking the millions and the glory I recommend that they start supporting Man Utd.
Gareth, however should move on, the test has been failed, the team are consistantly underperforming and someone needs to be accountable.
Can we get out of our current fix? To quote someone who has been in the news a bit recently - "Yes we can". But will we? That's a different question.
What I do know is that just keeping on doing what we've been doing and hoping it gets better won't do.
Leaving aside the debate on Messrs Gibson and Southgate (for nowt) he right ideas are on this board day in day out and have been, week in week out. Not rocket science but they just need doing.
But sitting inside some sort of Hurworth bubble going la-la-la with your fingers in your ears or turning it into some sort of fantasy island certainly isn't going to do it.
And that's certainly where Malcolm Crosby (who?) seems to be. I won't go through the whole of his latest 'foot-in-mouth' pronouncements (foot in mouth, fingers in ears and going la-la-la - that's worth the admission money alone!) - you can read them in today's Gazette.
But here's the quote that stands out as the 'dross de la dross' : "We all believe there were reasons beyond our control for the heavy defeat at West Brom."
What?? Planets in the wrong alignment? Wrong phase of the moon? Global recession (following the Gordon Brown logic)? A big lad did it and ran away?
Surely not the officiating. Leave aside the impenetrable offside interpretation the pass should have been stopped at source or cut out by McMahon, Brunt should never have got the shot/cross off either.
But that was very early and we (or maybe it wasn't us....) spurned all the chances to equalise. And by the time the sending off happened the game was dead and gone.
Plus which, if the reasons were beyond their control, it absolves the manager (and assistant manager), coaches and players of any responsibility.
If that's so, what can be done to change it? So why bother coaching and training? Why not keep on making the same mistakes week after week and not addressing the chronic issues? Oh, that's what been happening, isn't it.
They might as well call in someone good with the chicken's entrails or maybe we're relying on Mrs. Southgate's view, expressed earlier in the season according to her husband - that football's all about luck anyway.
It's this sort of stuff that when it comes to answering the 'Will we get out of this' question makes many of us have doubts about the answer when we'd dearly love to answer 'Yes we can' with confidence.
Moving on to King for Mido. If I say that in some senses this might be frying pan to fire will it get edited out, AV? Taking over the season long loan would make best sense, but it may not be possible. I thought Mido had also recanted over going to Wigan and that the Latics had signed another striker. But hey....
King has one advantage over The Sphinx in terms of a pairing with Alves - that he's primarily right sided and likes to come in from the right side, so the two of them wouldn't be fighting for the same space.
Like Mido, he can also head a ball and he doesn't mind 'putting himself about' a bit and seems to do the graft - not things that afflict the Twelve Million Quid Brazilian.
He's a bit of a rough diamond - maybe not unlike a Dean-o. Perhaps that's why they got into a scrap! A teamful would see us relegated but this one may well work out. We'll see.
That's one of the reasons I'm not keen on Watson from Palace - though I'd swap him for Arca any day!
If 'no cash involved' deals like this or a loan or two can be done - central midfield and left back are the other target areas - that might help give the whole place a lift.
I don't particularly want Gary O'Neil to go but if he's going to be semi-detached like he was on Saturday and mope around (and I don't mean to belittle any family issues he has) then a judgement has to be made.
If we could get a fee for him or a swap that would get us someone who could give us genuine width on the right, I'd let him go. If he stays, that's where he plays, for now.
Stewie stays and plays either wide left or 'in one' in the old Bolo role with Johnno outside him - not 'in the hole' or in a hole like he was on Saturday.
If Stewie plays wide left then Tuncay (he also stays) can play inside Stewie in the sort of 'inside left' attacking midfield role that my Fenerbahce following friends in London tell me he always does best in.
When Digard's back he can hold the midfield at the base of a 'diamond'. He did this brilliantly against The Barcodes and others. Aside from the occasional 'quarter-back' pass over the top to turn the opposing defence - it's shield the back four, win the ball and pass it simply to a red shirt in the midfield - not the defence if at all possible; no momentum in that. Act as the fulcrum of the continuity passing.
Until Digard comes back we need someone to do that. Shawky is the obvious - and maybe for now the only - choice but his form is lousy and he sometimes (like Saturday) lacks the necessary discipline.
But if it's not him then you have to 'square peg' a central defender like was done with Bates recently. Not ideal but Mr. Southgate used to be a defensive midfielder before he went into the back four so he must know what he's looking for.
The old nostrum is 'build from the back' and that's right. As soon as he is able Mr. Southgate should nail his best back four and play it in front of Rosco every time unless injury, suspension or dire form intervenes. This comes before trying to keep those who aren't in that four happy - up to them to challenge for the place.
Until everyone he wants in that four is fit he should play as many of them as are available and plug any gaps on the basis of form, fitness and attitude.
And, two up front please.
If it's not King then it's Tuncay to partner Alves or Mido. Not Alves and Mido together.
And if Alves has finished swaggering can someone please find out who at Everton taught The Yak how to head the ball and nick the routines. He can practise that in the afternoons when he's finished shooting practice!
Sky Sports have announced that Boro and Crystal Palace have agreed a £2m fee for Ben Watson (althought the BBC claim it's £5m) - let's hope it's sky sports who have got it right.
Plus let's hope the King Mido deal proves to be a touch of gold - Mido has been waste of space for quite a while now.
At least if we're not changing the manager then we do need new blood to give the team a lift.
It would appear the voices calling for the chairman's head are gathering momentum. I do not belive that is the way forward for this club. Relegation would be preferable frankly.
Often when a manager departs the phrase "taken the club as far as he could and now time ro step aside and let someone else take over the job" is heard. I wonder if the same applies to Chairmen.
Certainly it appears to many that Steve Gibson has taken Boro as far as he can and maybe its time for him to step aside. I dont think so but I would love for someone at his next press statement to pose that question of him. I believe he would give an honest and upbeat answer.
Perhaps its an answer that a lot of fans rather need to hear from him at this moment.
I think Southgate's honesty about getting sacked is a good clear message for the players who are not doing it on the pitch. Maybe it appearing on MOTD and other interviews it will wake some of them up again.
Alves has to start putting some of these balls in the net.He owes Gareth BIG TIME!
AV - Murdoch News are now running that we have agreed a £2m fee for Ben Watson, who they describe as a "midfield ball winner".
Any news from the Gazette side? Is this the first of a series of last minute press conferences where we flash the window cash?
Link:
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_4827932,00.html
garth sothgoat shuold be sockd.
**AV writes: A brilliant balance of believable stupidity and sly subversion.
Nigel asks the question of whether there is a credible alternative to Steve Gibson.
I've supported the club since 1974 and the premier league years have been, by and large, fantastic and mostly down to Gibson and his hard work, determination and commitment to the Boro.
If we start questioning the man now then all is lost. As others have said, go and support the glory boys if you want an instant fix. I have little time for the Geordie nation in any capacity but there is a loyalty there that is begining to shame us.
Ok then, let's find ourselves a rich benefactor and this is what we'd get.
1. Man Utd - with some irony, good owners. The Glazers have indulged Ferguson on and off the field. There long term motives are unclear but to-date there can be no complaints.
2. Chelsea - from barrow boy to multi billionaire in a few years courtesy of the murky world of Russian corporate sell-offs. Once described as 'resembling Harry Enfield with a lobotomy' so presumably well suited to the average Stamford Bridge acolyte.
3. Liverpool - at war in the boardroom, a failed new stadium and disharmony everywhere.
4. Aston Villa - Lerner seems to be a genuine fan and hasn't spent excessively. The pick of the bunch.
5. Arsenal - another unknown Russian, though this time with a spell in the clink on his cv.
6. Newcastle - Mike Ashley...
7. Sunderland - an Irish collective that may or may not have ceded control to American Ellis Short.
8. West Ham - dubious Icelandic backing and money worries galore. (Ironically a points deduction for them this season could yet be our saving grace...)
9. Spurs - Joe Lewis backed from the Bahamas yes but deluded and soulless.
10. Everton - a teary luvvy with little cash to spare. A genuine fan but no power.
We could go on but let's end with this corker;
Man City - a real club yes, but the consumate proof that money can't buy everything. The jokers in the pack, some achievement.
To paraphrase Keith Lamb, I think we've got the club we deserve and it's a great one.
Life is full of ups and downs but that doesn't mean you run away. Deal with it and move on. The club and fans need each other now. We, at least, can all do our bit.
As Richard Evans points out there are no credible alternative owners for Boro to Steve Gibson.
Even in the good times when the world thought it was awash with money as AV pointed out nobody would have wanted to buy a small provincial club with limited scope for development.
Clearly if clubs from big cities with big support and potential for improvement can't be sold (eg Everton and Newcastle) then there is no chance of Boro being wanted by a billionaire. In the current climate even a team as big and as steeped in history and with huge potential such as Liverpool cant be sold.
The billionaires aren't as rich as they thought they were, the oil money has dried up now that oil is less than $40 barrel rather than in excess of $100.
DIC who supposedly wanted to buy Liverpool are silent, why? Probably because Dubai is not an oil rich state, its wealth is based on borrowed money which is no longer available.
So if Mr Lamb were to head off to the middle east there would be no one at the airport to meet him other than maybe a Sun reporter wearing a fancy dress outfit.
Lets say we took the fantasy to a point where Boro were bought by a 'billionaire' does that guarantee success? No it doesnt, Spurs on the face of it tick all the boxes, owned by a billionaire, they have spent £140m on players in recent years have employed experienced managers with proven track records and as a result have spent two years fighting relegation! Explain that one TB!
Boro are in a slump, hopefully they will survive. If not I'll be a Boro supporter supporting Boro in the Championship. That's life, you take the rough with the smooth.
Good Evans! Very good!
Anyone that wants to criticize Gibbo needs shooting.
tonyblack,
Your comments are really not helping the current situation.
"I would privately send the count to the Arab community in order to find a rich buyer or set of buyers who have pot loads of cash to invest and want the kudos of owning a club of their own".
That comment is a peach and should go down in the blogging hall of fame...
Firstly, why would any arab want to buy MFC? There are enough out there so surely if one of them fancied it then Gibbo would have taken the offer on board.
Secondly why would anybody want to own a club like MFC when they could pick a club with a far bigger catchment area, potentially bigger fan base, more potential tv coverage, more merchandising opportuniities and an area that dosnt come bottom of tv polls every year as the worst town in England.?
Championship teams such as Wolves, QPR, Watford, Charlton would surely make more financial sense. Even Leeds may appeal more to a billionaire who couldn't give a damn about what he lost or made. MFC isnt a brand that will market world wide if it did then im sure Gibbo would have taken advantage of Eindhoven.
We are the rolla cola of world football where as teams like Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Spurs, Man City are the Pepsis and Coca Colas
We are what we are, you're either with us or your against us and frankly with your comments week in week out you seem very much against.
Get a grip, support the team, support the manager, support the chairman and most of all support the badge that represents the whole of Teesside.....
COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!
It will be interesting to see if the truth of Southgate vs Mido ever comes out in the future.
Mido scores, and Southgate does not start him. Alves does not score, and Southgate starts him. Mido then wants to go elsewhere, which makes him seem like he has common sense and that Southgate does not.
If you take the number of goals Mido has, and the number of minutes he has played, he would have 20 goals this season if he played every minute of every game ( like Downing and Alves ).
Giving him to Wigan violates the "not strengthening our competition" principle that Gibson stated only days ago, except that in this case it is about future seasons. Steve Bruce has all the experience that Southgate lacks, and Wigan are moving ever closer to an European place.
Mido already has plenty of experience playing with Zaki, and should hit the ground running, especially since he is fit and in good form this season.
Add to the Big 4 clubs, Aston Villa, Everton and now Wigan, and probably Spurs next season, and Europe will be a distant fond memory.
Even more importantly, all the players and agents will understand this, and when Downing and O'Neil leave, most of the money will go to pay off debts, because no £15m player will come here any more.
OK 'ignorant' of Boroland I'll accept that anyone who criticises Gibson should be shot - just as long as it's Alves doing the shooting!
David Morrison
Happy to support the Team, the Manager and the Owner - but don't ask me to stand up for the Badge - the worst piece of graphic design since before folks were spraying ochre on the walls of caves!
Neil Bausor could get his hat-trick
1. White band on the home shirt
2. Blue and Black striped away kit
He could become a local hero if he got rid of that badge and got something that actually did the town and the team proud.
Just at a time when criticism of Gibson (shame on you!) is even rearing his head, he manages to rummage down the back of all of the Riverside sofas, and his jacket pockets, and come up with £2m for this Watson fella!
From what I hear, you'll love this, he's not the sort who gives 100% effort all of the time, but conserves his energy for bursting runs and tracking back.
Let's just hope that he doesn't contract the infamous and little-known strain of Riverside lethargy, known in Latin as: Riversidium Canntus Be-arsdus For-Nintyminitus.
That is of course if Fulham don't hijack the deal at the last minute - which would most certainly be "Typical Boro"...
David Morrison said:
"tonyblack, Your comments are really not helping the current situation. "
Have you been drinking David? My comments? How about, 4th bottom, poor tactics, poor team selection, poor motivation, poor football, lack of a fighting spirit, players under performing, habitually conceding late on and not being able to sort it out, a lack of money and what is possibly the worst player selection in the transfer market ever seen at this club? Mido, Shawky, Digard and Co.
Please, have a word with yourself. My comments reflect the ever growing discontent of the fans with this totally inept and out of his deapth manager and his team of coach's.
" Judge me this season " Southgate said.
I'd love to hear how you rate it so far and where you feel the blame lies because it certainly has nothing to do with an idiot like me posting in a fans blog.
TB
Tony Black
"My comments reflect the ever growing discontent of the fans with this totally inept and out of his deapth manager and his team of coachs."
So you are a voice for the fans then hey?
So far its not been great but we havnt yet played 38 games in the league so I will judge MFC on where we end up. The new signings that are being mooted may help us and with the league being so tight as every other fan on here has stated time and time again we can pull ourselves out of it.
As for southgate being out of his depth how can you say that? If you look at his statistics he has probbaly won drawn and lost close to whatever the 3 previous managers achieved in their 1st few seasons.
Robbo was inexpereinced, and McClaren had never managed before plus they both had millions to spend on transfers and wages. It is not fair to put Southgate in the same bracket as time has changed and the model for mfc has changed.
However I do beleive that for the model MFC are trying to go with we do need an experienced manager to bring through the youth and manage the books and transfer market with the touch that only experience brings. If southgate can survive these next few games I think he will be better for it and become stronger and more confident.
Southgate has done nohing wrong and your constant berating just turns the whole atmosphere on the blog. I bet you will be the first one chanting "Southgate out" at the blackburn game if it isnt going well.
We can do it we can pull clear, we can survive and we can become better. That's what us Teessiders do. That's what we have got instilled and that is what is going to come through so that we survive in the premier league.
Get behind the team. Is it to much to ask?
Word has it now that the deal for Watson has turned into an auction between several clubs over his personal terms and - presumably - which club he feels has the best prospects.
Two of those alleged to be in the frame are London clubs - which might have some appeal to a London based lad. All are better placed than Boro.
It was said previously that Palace weren't going to let anyone go before the end of the window - not sure why, since they are alleged to be desperate to get the fee and reduce the wage bill.
But if you were Watson you might not only want to hear what the other clubs had to say but if you were going to join Boro you might want to wait until after we'd played Wolves, Chelski and Blackburn before you made up your mind.
The brighter of the rats might want to check the caulking, the lifeboats, the weather forecast and where the wreckers and pirates are before they get on the good ship Boro. They already know the Owner and the 'Captain'.
Having seen 'Aunted Arry's' rant after their narrow Carling Cup squeak last night, apologising to Sir Alex and the fans of both sides because he is going to send a weakened side to Old Trafford 'cos the game doesn't matter, two things struck me.
Firstly, wasn't there some FA rule about deliberately sending a weakened team and in effect 'chucking' a game? Especially when you advertise it in advance. Or did that just apply to league games at the 'squeaky bum' end of the fixture list?
Secondly, I wonder what's in goth seagoat's (thanks Adam) mind about the Wolves game. Do you go full tilt for a morale boosting performance and a win in a competition that is strictly second order and risk getting neither and possibly pick up more injuries and suspensions to key players?
Or do you take the 'Arry route and play all the usual benchwarmers, reserves and squad players on the grounds that the Chelski game is what matters?
I suppose the difference is that Spurs have a six-pointer against Stoke on the Tuesday whereas Boro have a damage limitation exercise/anything got is a bonus at Stamford Bridge a day later.
I'm struggling to think which way I'd go in goth's place.
My previous post got lost... So I hope I'm not repeating myself.
Richard Evans is absolutely 100 % right. I've supported the Boro since the 1970's and everything after 1986 and Gibbo is marvelous to me!
Now Gibbo has found £2million to bring in Watson. Critics - look how the world has changed in the past 3 months! And Gibbo still struggling to realize the financical slump.
Well done, Gibbo (again)!
We are all entitled to our own opinions, but facts cannot be shot down.Steve Gibson came up with the money to buy Alves whose form looked ferocious.
Gareth Southgate then was able to buy this very expensive goal scoring machine to lead the line.Since he arrived, he has been a total flop & wouldn’t any defense lose their direction on seeing games been thrown away up front week in week out?
At the beginning of the season the fans believed Gareth Southgate’s downfall would come from not investing in a proven goal keeper. However, the gaffer stuck by his guns & Ross Turbull has been a successful introduction, despite the results.
He has in fact being a game saver on several occasions when Alves has missed open sitters and left the onus on a demoralised defence to keep a clean sheet for a point. There are no excuses for Alves lack of goals, because I reiterate, many were missed tap in’s.
Do you expect Steve Gibson to tell him how to score goals?
Do you expect Gareth Southgate to tell him how to score goals?
The manager should have played him in the reserves to taste the price of failure.
The new signings to be will expect to have the backing of the fans and win football games and it is vital that we back our Premiership club to the hilt and balls to the rest.
Nick says that Gibson found the money for Alves but these deals in reality are paid over 2 or 3 yearly installments plus it was partly funded from the sale of the Yak.
I'm not having a go at Steve Gibson's committment to Boro but according to recent financial statements he has only loaned £69m to the club and not gifted it - OK this is probably interest free and he's not going to necessarily call in the loan unless he sells the club - but it's still a loan.
To be honest I think Boro have wasted tens of millions of pounds over recent years on over-priced expensive flops and damaged goods who were also on wages that sucked the club dry.
Although, I agree with the current affordable team policy but in practice that should still allow us to spend £20m each season on good quality players.
The truth is that under Southgate (though they may not have been his choices) the club has wasted close to £30m on bad purchases.
Yes I'm glad we have Steve Gibson but let's not be blinded into thinking he can do no wrong - grooming Southgate as a number 2 like Tony Adams under 'Arry would have been a much better option for a start.
The problem now is we're even struggling to attract championship players and this is partly to do with our league position but it's also due to laying our cards on the table and saying we're broke and telling everybody that all our players have a price.
**AV writes: On the issue of "loans" I am no accountant but my understanding of financial regulations is that where there is a credit there must be a debit.
Because the money is being moved from one part of the Bulkhaul empire to another it has to go down as liability (otherwise people could just shuffle money about without a forensic paper trail for all kinds of dubious reasons). That is why it appears as a loan, so the company accounts add up.
I am not sure that there is a way to magic up £20m a year for transfers. Over the past decade TV money and other income has barely covered the wage bill. In practice all transfers in that time have been added to the debt.
Even if you assume we get £60m this year, £35m is gone immediately on wages, another £5m or so servicing the club's debts, £2-3m running the club (transport, hotels, scouting, utility bills) plus who knows how much on the Academy, the massive investment in community schemes and all kinds of other low level activity.
How much does that leave?
AV,
There are rumours at bbc's pages that King and Watson are at the Rockcliffe.
Any confirmation from Gazette on this, AV?
PS. Change of a manger has helped a club VERY seldon statistically...
AV, from reading your comments on the live webchat forum, do you think that if the Watson move goes ahead we may see some subtle backtracking on the "no one going anywhere" club spiel and Gary O'Neill may be allowed to leave, after viewing his dispirited and inept performance at the weekend?
If so might this not send the message to other wantaways that if they really want to go then they just do a Yakubu and not turn up on the pitch?
Signing Ben Watson (???) is an admission that Southgate got it wrong selling Cattermole and Boateng, and letting Rochemback go. Any number of supporters could have pointed that out.
It is also a precursor to O'Neill being sold in the summer.
**AV writes: When Catts and George were sold they thought Harper was arriving but for one reason or another that fell through. The squad has been well short since then so just getting bodies in will be a plus.
I hope I am not repeating myself as my last two posts disappeared in to thin air but when we talk about debt we must not lose sight of the fact that it was McClaren and no one else who was responsible for putting us in to this situation with his poor expensive buys.
Southgate had to get rid of the dead wood and reduce the salary burden at the same time maintain Premier League status. Gareth HAS MANAGED THE FIRST TWO TASKS AND GIVEN A LITTLE LUCK HE WILL MANAGE THE THIRD AND FINAL TASK.
I am not sure about Marlon King , but let us face it he can do no worse than Alves who I am afraid is now a man of he past, and will go down as another major striker flop to rank alongside Macaroni in its magnitude.
"Southgate had to get rid of the dead wood and reduce the salary burden at the same time maintain Premier League status. Gareth HAS MANAGED THE FIRST TWO TASKS AND GIVEN A LITTLE LUCK HE WILL MANAGE THE THIRD AND FINAL TASK. "
So he just brought in his own deadwood and performed far worse than Mc Claren. It's not about luck for Gods sake it's about strength of character, football nous, leadership, authority and inate managerial ability.
On any measure of the above, Gareth Southgate, unfortunately, does not register. When are you people going to shake yourselves out of such denial; completely self delusional this nonsense of G.S. "turning things round"
A.V have you been signed up by Gibbo to exercise your empty spinning rhetoric in an effort to mobilise the ra ra army against the justified anger and angst of the majority of fans who happen to have more than half a brain, which helps them to conclude that our present downfall is down to inept,woefully weak and wasteful management team.
Your ramblings recently have merely been an exercise in excusing failure, an apologist for massive under achievement.
I could go on but it's getting late, so just one issue I must take on. The size of the squad. I believe, (like Keith Lamb) that the squad this season was good enough to see us in mid table comfort zone. Injuries are part and parcel of the game and should be factored in. On several occasions this season we have failed miserably with the first 11 and the manager has had the luxury to have near £25 million pounds worth of footballer sat on the bench.
Oh how West Brom, Stoke, Hull, Bolton etc would wish to be able to afford such largesse. So don't insult our intelligence by pleading poverty for our flawed and failing management team.
Tosh you have been well named. that"s about all I can say for your comments.
We need constructive criticism and idea"s not a load tosh from contributors. As for the Wolves game I have been watching a good number of Championship games recently and I have been impressed with the quality of their football, especially the top half dozen teams, note Burnley:s great play against Spurs recently ,So the Boro will have their work cut out to come away with anything from Wolves encounter.