About this blog

Untypical Boro is a lively topical blog by the Evening Gazette's award winning football columnist Anthony Vickers that aims to get behind the headlines to flesh out the stories that Boro fans are talking about.

Incisive, provocative and well informed it seeks to engage with articulate supporters and give them a platform to help set the agenda on the issues that matter.

Recent comments

Recent Posts

Sponsored links

Archives

Links

Advertiser

Sponsored links


St Juninho: A Heretic Confesses

Posted by on October 26, 2008 11:08 PM | 

LET the hysteria begin. Juninho has fluttered his eye-lashes, offered a sentimental step-over for old times sake and said he wants to come home and an army of usually emotionally armour-plated macho former steelworkers and dockers have gone wobbly-kneed in mushy anticipation of a tear-jerking reunion.

Cynics may suggest that it is just an unemployed ex-player looking for one last pay-day, that millionaire mercenaries have no feeling for the club and that had he cared that much for Boro he could have returned of his own volition at any stage over the last few years during one of his injuries to take the plaudits or even just to draw the half-time raffle - but they should be wary of doing so. With Juninho the normal rules do not apply. The Little Fella is beyond criticism and can not be judged by any of the normal jaundiced criteria.

Whole layers of Boro fans are wary of signing foreigners, are hostile to the club for signing players with poor injury records, are adamant that there should be no more fading golden oldies living on past glories... yet would set aside those acid tests in a heart-beat for Juninho. Some of the most hard-nosed and normally rational of supporters go all misty-eyed at the thought of Juninho and seriously harbour dreams that he could still do a job, that he could bring the spark of creativity the team craves. It is a form of madness.

The real sad cases, the faithful of the First Church of Saint Juninho have dreams one step closer to madness and would willingly hand the badgeless Brazilian a place in the dug-out tomorrow - some extreme cases even as the manager - in the bizarre belief that his very presence could imbue Boro's current batch of lifeless midfielders with samba skills by some mystical process of osmosis.

I have always found the almost religious one-eyed obsession with Juninho deeply disturbing and corrosive. The zealotry and voluntary myopia that comes with totally uncritical support of an individual is totally at odds with the collective concept of a team. When ten other players "are not on the same wavelength" it should ring alarm bells and raise question-marks about the signal being transmitted.

I will put my hand up to the heresy of doubting the infallibility of Juninho. And I know that immediately opens me to public vilification. I've been there before: the intense six pages letters in green ink with salient points underlined in red, the vicious accusations of treachery and vile Satanic Lambism, having to look under the car in the morning with a little mirror on a long stick. I've got nothing against the bloke either personally or as a player, I just believe he is mortal and should be measured as other men. I have no time for deification or the cult of personality.

He was undoubtedly a great player - to deny his sublime skills would be churlish - but he was by no means the best player and he was certainly not a team player. Beating three men may leave the crowd in raptures but if you try to beat a fourth and lose the ball or fail to deliver the cross then it is ultimately an empty exercise in pointless art. In three spells of Boro he probably only performed anywhere near the imagined levels of sustained brilliance in one six month spell. For much of the rest he was injured, recovering, out of position or out of synch.

He is not the best player ever to wear a Boro shirt (look at the legends poll for a list of alternative candidates), not even the best in the modern age (Southgate and Ince for me) and in fact he is not even the best Brazilian because if you want to measure it over an arbitrary short spell then awesome Emerson in his first three months was by a far a better, more effective and inspirational figure. And as far as one player galvanising a team and leaving magic in his wake is concerned Juninho wasn't as mesmerisingly successful as Paul Merson was - and he has a lynch mob on his tail. Boro have signed bigger names that had a greater impact on the team and have contributed more in the long term to the club but they have still been given a hard time and measured harshly against St Juninho .

Putting aside his skills and where exactly he stands in the pecking order (which is entirely subjective anyway) the thing that has always disturbed me is the collective public adoration and the resulting blindness to his faults and his mortality. There is a cult like mentality at work.

It has always amazed me that Juninho has largely escaped censure for actions that would be regarded as unequivocal sins had they been committed by other players: the failure to show for the open-top parade after Wembley would be considered a stain for generations to come had it been the actions of a mere mortal while the decision to leave after relegation is quite clearly a 'rats leaving sinking ship' in any other conceivable individual situation but in his case the mitigation of 'just thinking about his international ambitions' was accepted without question. If Stewart Downing or David Wheater was to leave citing the the same reason would it be so sympathetically received? I don't think so.

It strikes me that Juninho has never been judged by the same criteria as any other player. He transcends any objective scale of assessment because he is not just any other player, he is a cypher, a personification of those few brief months when big spending Boro were reshaping the dreamscape of possibilities, when anything was achievable and the sky was the limit.

Juninho crystalised a moment when Boro were shattering the club record with every transfer, were in a plush new stadium and the shackles of a barren Ayresome history had been shattered. Boro were liberated from a humdrum and fruitless past, supporters had - temporarily at least - cast aside that inherited armour of cynicism and were emotionally open to a new age of possibility. Juninho is a symbol of all that powerful, passionate moment of rebirth and new hope when it seemed that dreams could come true.

To judge Juninho harshly would be plunge a knife into our own dreams and threaten the viability of our own possibility. The recurring notion of Juninho's return is like the Arthurian legend of a super-natural saviour who will come in our hour of need, a psychological symbol linked to our own prospects of rising again.

Boro should have done with it and sign him up as a £30 grand a week mascot. Having him doing tricks before the game would have the crowd in a frenzy and may spark the crowd back into life.


Comments (74)

Benny Brown wrote...

Never thought I would hear such drivel from a Columnist of your stature Anthony, You normally make a lot of sense in your articles, but your attack on the the Skills of Juninho are difficult to believe. The only Boro player I can think of who comes close to the little fella was our own Wilf Mannion. For pure footballing skills he had no equal, and his dedication to the Boro was admirable to say the least. Please do not Sully his memory with articles that stray far from the truth.

Posted by: Benny Brown  | October 27, 2008 6:29 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

Saying 'Juninho isn't the Messiah - he's just a very naughty boy!' just won't do.

That's not because what you say is wrong, though I could argue with some of your choices of better players but it's because - like Brian's Mum - you are mistaking the nature of a phenomenon, although you get close in your closing paragraphs.

There should be no place in the dugout unless Juninho has the talent and aptitude to coach. But we don't know he hasn't got that, do we - and what we do know is that - if he fancies it and is good enough - one of the requirements for a coach is surely that little spark of magic that allows someone to inspire without ticking off the players they are coaching (like Hoddle used to do).

No-one can deny that TLF has that little spark of magic with the fan base. If he can do it with players then that's worth a shot - but, I repeat, only if he wants to do it and can prove he's got the wherewithal.

Posted by: John Powls  | October 27, 2008 9:10 AM

Holgate Ender wrote...

Shocking AV. How dare you criticise the Little Fella. You sound like the bitter Scotsman. Juninho was brilliant. It WAS the rest that got us relegated.

The way he was shot out on the sly by McClaren was a disgrace. He deserves the chance to come back to say goodbye.

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | October 27, 2008 9:18 AM

patrick steele wrote...

I agree with the sentiments of this article. I mean it's not as if Boro have never had any other decent or talismanic players in their eventful history.

Juninho should be treated no differently to the likes of Hickton, Maddren, Boam, Souness, Otto, Mowbray, Slaven, Whelan etc. and of course the legends from the b&w era. Then there's the forgotten 'lesser lights' such as Job and Zenden who arguably played a more influential role in putting that single pot in the cabinet.

A bar in the ground, at a push a statue in the future would be sufficient to draw a line under this because instead of trying to recreate history, we should be dealing with the present and looking to the future - speaking of which Tuncay is just as exciting anyway, and he really does play for the team.


Posted by: patrick steele  | October 27, 2008 9:56 AM

2 Otterburn Gardens wrote...

Juninho walked out on us after we were demoted by the Premier League. His status as a legend ended there and then.
His other stints at the club were nothing special.

Robbie Mustoe has earned the right to be called a Boro legend than the little waster, oops fella!

Posted by: 2 Otterburn Gardens  | October 27, 2008 10:25 AM

Nigel wrote...

Hey AV you're a brave man!!! This is going to be a blinder, you'll have a record number of posts I reckon.

I agree with JP you hit the mark in the closing paragraphs, Juninho is an untouchable hero because he personified new hope for the Boro. He was Brazil's player of the year and he wore Pele's shirt when at the peak of his career he chose to join Boro. That sets him aside from any other player to have played for Boro in recent years.

Also he had passion for the club, he was in tears the day we got relegated at Leeds, that again sets him aside from Merson et al who were simply passing through, the only other player not from the area I've seen with that passion for Boro is Southgate, showing that passion is far more important than sitting on top of a bus!

To say he wasn't a team player may or may not be true, the fact is when he was in the team nine players gave him the ball whenever they could because they didn't want to take responsibility perhaps? And the 11th (Ravenelli) waited to receive it to score.

Juninho did spend too much time beating three and losing it to the fourth he wasn't perfect, but he was very very exciting to watch. In particular those six months at his peak he played some breath taking football, I still watch the video now and again.

I think bringing him back to Boro in any sort of coaching capacity is a daft idea, why would we want to do that, ex-hero's don't necessarily make good coaches, but I'd love to see him back for a farewell friendly match in the Summer, that would be a great day out, a 90 minute nostalgia fest remembering the time when we dared to dream we could be a 'big' club, why not?

Posted by: Nigel  | October 27, 2008 10:26 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

Are you hoping the gremlins in the Gazette computer systems will block out most of the posts? Do you want a horses head for Xmas?

TLF brought many fans and attention to the club, he helped put Boro on the map. Was he the best player to play for Boro? I am not qualified to judge.

He certainly could cramp the teams style because of his need for the ball, for me his best performance was in the cup tie at Derby because of his contribution to the team effort.

There was a difference between TLF and Merson/Emerson/Ravanelli. He was clearly heart broken when we got relegated. Yes he left but he didnt walk out and go awol, he didnt criticise the club, he didn’t do secret deals behind our backs.

It appeared that his final departure from the club could have been handled better. You certainly got the impression Mac had decided he was going without giving him a chance to appear with Veruka, JFH etc. Even Greening got to play for the first team in pre season whilst negotiating his transfer to West Brom. The clue to the sad nature of his departure came following a friendly at Preston where he came on second half for the 2nd string and got glowing tributes from the Gazette and press. MFC didn’t even mention him in their report. No player should be treated like that.

He was a very good player but there is no reason to deify or crucify him. Can he contribute to the club again, I am not sure what he could offer

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 27, 2008 10:39 AM

BobG wrote...

Agree with you AV. Lovely to watch when he was on song and could be very clever, but often gave the ball away after beating three men & couldn't reach the goal from the 18yard line if he tried a shot. He did have a good footballing brain (Brazilian intl)and some around him didn't, so maybe a man in the right place at the wrong time.Having said that we went to see him try and lift the gloom towards the end of his time with us.

Posted by: BobG  | October 27, 2008 10:50 AM

Mac in Bak wrote...

You asked for it Vic!

Posted by: Mac in Bak  | October 27, 2008 10:52 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Well now AV!

Black words against our Unicorn indeed, you will get home and find a small old top hat with bloodied white chickens feathers on it I reckon .Don't mess with the mythical past unless you know what you are doing AV, did I hear someone shriek 'voodoo!'

Zola was Chelsea's mythical beast and rightly so.However he has returned to manage a different club and his magic isnt working.

As Southgate [and Cooper for that matter] is/are in their infancy Juninho as some form of attacking coach/mentor could be a positive.

I just think if we had got a canny experienced manager with a bit of guile there would be no talk of Juninho straight in to help out as we wouldnt need it.I want Southgate to succeed although I have been harsh towards his post match interviews.Honesty over constant late goals with no remedy other than comments over learning lessons.
Selling off a lot of the squad [ giving away Rocky on the free] and not replacing the creativity in the central midfield so we have a great Brazilian striker with no one to put the ball at his feet so he can do what he does best.

No wonder Juninho holds such high status , we could do with him or Paul Merson pulling the strings at the mo.

I am gonna shut up now as I feel a rant about some players lack of motivation in relation to the manager, the lack of strength in depth to create competition for places so players dont feel that they are nailed on starters in matches and are not fighting for a place in the squad- hell the squad is so thin that a couple of injury's/ suspensions mean we lose all games for a month.Blah Blah Blah-

God help us , bring back Juninho.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | October 27, 2008 10:54 AM

Richard wrote...

AV:

Juninho – The Fourth Coming!

Although a bit heavy for a Monday morning, I find myself making the intellectual comparison between the recently announced “Atheist Bus” Project and your article.

Much too extensive and complex a subject to do any kind of justice here. However, I offer a few observations:

Jesus supposedly did a few good tricks in his lifetime – so we’re told by 2000 years of hand-me-down stories. It didn’t make him the “Son of God”, though. People developed that myth. And it stuck for a long time - and still does in many places. But that didn’t make it any more factual or true. It was a unifying convenience; at the same time socially beneficial and yet socially divisive. Much to be admired. Much to be abused.

In a world of limited or slow migration, the “Jesus myth” served a unifying purpose for local communities, but the unquestioning subservience to the myth can lead to intellectual paralysis and an unhealthy, unquestioning acceptance of anything emanating from the inevitable centres of power that develop around it – even when the icon has left the scene and only the myth remains behind as “fact”. And, demonstrably, we know that over time, “facts” become distortions.

For me, the danger arises when individual interpretations of exaggerated influence or distortions of truth are used to reinforce views or opinions, and when those distortions are then accepted by the many as “fact”. A bit like Sky Sports news reporting actually – and many other sources that, these days, use the carefully conceived and crafted methods and over-hyped terminology of the commercial science of Marketing and Advertising!

I concur with the content and have personal sympathy and strong leanings towards both your article and the “Atheist Bus” Project. And for reasons of personal satisfaction, I’m pleased to be “outed” as a fellow heretic.

Whilst I admired some of The Little Fella’s skills and I can understand the affection that many on Teesside hold for him, like you, I’m not blinded to the facts by sentiment, nor am I prepared to support any developing mythology. Looking to the future, it serves no useful purpose. And whilst it’s sometimes comforting to relive pleasant memories of the past, that’s exactly what they are.

That’s where I feel they should remain.

Posted by: Richard  | October 27, 2008 11:03 AM

James Emmerson wrote...

AV wrote: "To judge Juninho harshly would be plunge a knife into our own dreams and threaten the viability of our own possibility. The recurring notion of Juninho's return is like the Arthurian legend of a super-natural saviour who will come in our hour of need, a psychological symbol linked to our own prospects of rising again."

Well thanks AV, I can send this to 'Pseuds Corner' in Private Eye and get myself a tenner. Can you actually believe you committed that to print?

I really don't see how an ex-player unquestionably held in high regard by a big majority publicly wondering about playing a pre-season friendly can be the cause of such pretentious prose, and such a big deal in the first place.

If it works out, all well and good. There's no hint of it leading to anything more, certainly not on the coaching front.

Boro showed yet again on Saturday that it's not Juninho-like creativity that's the problem - it's far more basic than that! Retention of possession, composure when near the opponents penalty area, and total concentration are where I would be focussing my efforts if I were coach.

There also needs to be a much more ruthless implementation of simple team tactics. I feel Southgate is bottling the issue with Downing by refusing to sub him no matter how much further into mediocrity he slides. His wastefulness and poor set-play delivery cost us on Saturday - sadly not for the first time.

Southgate's strategy of sitting back, inviting pressure and hoping to smash and grab on the break may work occasionally (i.e. Wigan, Portsmouth last season etc) but more often than not it backfires.

McLaren had five seasons, Southgate's into his third. In six of those seven complete seasons we spent a big chunk of the campaign fighting the drop, directly related to this 'try-and-nick-a-goal-then-ten-behind-the-ball-and-launch-it' attitude we take on our travels.

This season is set fair to be absolutley no different, except at some point avoiding relegation is just going to prove too much.

This is all another way of saying that the Juninho thing, whatever the outcome, is a side issue. More lost points and the continuation of a ghastly away record is the centre of my attention when it comes to Boro just now.

Posted by: James Emmerson  | October 27, 2008 11:24 AM

Shaun Hannon wrote...

Anthony

You have hit the nail on the head. Juninho the player who could strike a ball as hard as an eleven year old could. Certainly he had a good season the year Zola got footballer of the year. However lets forget this guy. Being under 5 foot people took him to their hear.

Posted by: Shaun Hannon  | October 27, 2008 11:30 AM

Liam Bringloe wrote...

In my opinion Juninho is the best player we have had in the riverside era. He was shoved out of the back door by mclaren and in my opinion deserves one last sell out at the riverside to thank him for his services to the club (perhaps a pre season friendly would be most suitable)

Fans show loyalty to juninho because juninho shows loyalty to the club and fans. His feelings for the boro were summed up when he said winning the league cup with boro was better than winning the world cup with brazil

I would love to see him pull the shirt on one last time and in the future be part of the coaching staff in some way in the hope the other payers will play with the pride he did

Posted by: Liam Bringloe  | October 27, 2008 11:31 AM

Steve Graham wrote...

AV,

I'm currently sitting in nice hot weather in sunny Brisbane Australia. I was in the country and travelling up and down when Juninho was weaving his magic and on his day he was completely unplayable.

When Emerson, Raveneilli and Juninho clicked together at the same time Boro played as well as anyone can ever remember. The night Newcastle match springs to mind. The problem was it happened too rarely, especially in the league but Boro fans are grateful for him putting us on the map and as you so rightly say it "shocked the football world".

It was an incredible time, full houses, Brazilian flags flying and the team and crowd fully in unison over the 3 points fiasco. That was the thing that made the time special, it was us versus everyone else, not some knocker in the crowd complaining about our own team so all the good things were amplified and the bad and the ugly quickly forgotten. It was the biggest ride of most of our lifetimes and we surfed that wave and hung on for dear life.

Then just as it was about to start up again, the injury to Juninho took away his pace and instead of free flowing attacking football, Mac sank back to a dour defensive no risk policy from which we've not yet recovered. There are signs of a change now but only just signs of it and it's inconsistent at the moment

Which brings me to watching Juninho last year in the Ozzie A League which most of you will not have seen. Remember a no pace Gazza stumbling around around and producing one sublime pass a game or a magic free kick? Or George Best shuffling around at Fulham? That was Juninho last season.

Injuries have taken their toll on the little fella. He was an ageing artist struggling to catch up with play, unable to break free or dribble past young fitter faster and very very limited footballers, but the few times he got the ball and had time then his class appeared and he made telling passes and made it look easy.

The question I ask the other Boro fans is do you want to remember him in his prime, 24 years old and flying past defenders. Or do you want to see Juninho in a game that means nothing, unable to produce the trademark darting runs that brought the house down? I'd rather have the memories but yes he should be allowed to be introduced to the crowd on a trip back at a big game with a full house.

He put his career on the line by coming to Boro at his peak and it probably cost him many more Brazilian caps than he ended up with. So there may have been better players but there is no-one else AV that has done that for our club, that's why he was unique. Yes he was well paid but we should thank him properly.

Steve
ex-Normanby.

Posted by: Steve Graham  | October 27, 2008 11:32 AM

martin saunders wrote...

if i was sat unemployed in sao paolo , i would ask previous employers for a job too.
nice try little fella, you are 10 years too old to fit into the team, you will always be a legend though, a past legend

Posted by: martin saunders  | October 27, 2008 12:28 PM

Mark wrote...

Juninho while certainly one of the most exciting players Boro have ever had is also one of the most over rated to me.

His first season was a disappointment, his 2nd which resulted in relegation was better, for half the season he was outstanding.

He was not the same player in his later stint at the club.

He seems to have a god like status based on half a season. I'm not saying he was a bad player, he wasn't. He was a very good player who at times was breathtaking but over his entire time at the club he most definately was not the world beating god most of Teesside seem to remember him as.

I can't help but feel his reputation is based as much on the wave of hysteria that swept Teesside when he was signed generating more expectation than we've ever had before as it is his impact on the pitch.

Posted by: Mark  | October 27, 2008 12:42 PM

tonyblack wrote...

** GIVE JUNI AND MENDI A JOB ! **

Holgate Ender wrote...

Shocking AV. How dare you criticise the Little Fella. You sound like the bitter Scotsman. Juninho was brilliant. It WAS the rest that got us relegated.

The way he was shot out on the sly by McClaren was a disgrace. He deserves the chance to come back to say goodbye.

Well said mate. I couldn't agree more.

I'd LOVE to see him working to start with in our youth set up and being on the bench at ALL the Senior games as an observer so that he could learn before one day giving him a shot IF he's good enough, as I think he would do wonders both for skill factor and because he's such a nice man who would inspire and add a welcome bit of that Samba magic.

I met him once at a restaurant and asked for his autograph at the end of his meal and he was all big smiles.

What a really nice guy.

GIVE HIM A JOB!

Fantastic player in my book. Fantanstic servant to the club who really did love the people and the area, just as Big Mac did, Zenden did, Big Franck and Nemeth did, just to name a few. These people PROVE that this area has a lot to offer footballers and that's great for us up North. Not everyone's after the big VIP lifestyle of the London WAGS haven.

Didn't slate the town or people when he left, unlike a certain Sky pundit who should be shot, and only ever talks fantastically about the area and its people.

Players can have a go at their actual place of work and their employers and that's fine by me. But when players slate the town and its people they should NEVER be welcomed back.

To get rid of any player in the way he did, and especially Juni, was a total, utter and absolute disgrace.

Thrown into the reserves to rot until he lost his mind. That's no way to treat people.

A real man would have called him into the office and told him to his face saying that it was nothing personal but just a footballing decision. End of story.

I'm glad Mendi didn't stand for the same treatment and made them pay him his full wages until the bitter end.

Serves them right.

Come to think of it... Mendi and Juni running the entire youth team set up??? Sounds good to me!

TB

**AV writes: So after all the talk about scientific professionalism, cutting edge fitness facilities, the Milan lab and the need to only employ those who are proven to be the best now you would have someone because they are nice and have a big smile?

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 27, 2008 1:08 PM

My Generation wrote...

I will pay to see him back for a match ("Testimonial"?), he was the player of my generation, the '97 season was my first as a season ticketer and I loved every minute until Brian Deane put the ball in the back of our net. I have 3 nephews and my own "little fella" and I would love for them to see the legend thats was Juninho.

Not sure I would like him back permanently tho, if coaching is now his thing then pick some experience in Brazil and then maybe, just maybe, turn one of our academy kids into a world beater.

Posted by: My Generation  | October 27, 2008 1:20 PM

Matthew wrote...

Right AV,

I have a feeling you have written this to simply bring yourself some attention to even bring into doubt tlf's class is simply ridiculous.

He was and will be for a very long time the best footballer i have seen in a Middlesbrough shirt, and he actually loved the club (unlike the Mersons or Emersons that you mention) and ran himself into the ground for us!!

And to bring up Merson makes me sick, the guy cant wait to get a dig in at the club on Sky. Yes he done well when he was here however his best performance were in the championship or then division 1!

Get a grip of yourself AV and give the guy some respect, people like you shouldnt be writing columns in the local paper if this is the tosh your going to come out with.

Juninho - you will always be loved by the Middlesbrough public....

Posted by: Matthew  | October 27, 2008 1:22 PM

jc wrote...

"There is a cult like mentality at work."

What's that? A cult like mentality! Amongst football fans! What is the world coming to?

Posted by: jc  | October 27, 2008 1:46 PM

Ste Mac wrote...

I love Juninho to bits but some of the things people are coming out with here are ludicrous.

Have him back as a coach just because he was a great player? Great players, especially flair players, don't always make good coaches because their talent is natural. It CAN'T be coached.

The idea that Juninho should sit in the dug-out every game waiting his time to take over is crazy. I know TB doesn't like GS but how far would he go to undermine the Gate's authority.

And it really gets me wound up when fans talk about players who love the club. Don't be daft. They love the money, the hero worship and the lifestyle but they don't love the club. Not like we do. Not like Gibbo does.

When players talk about 'this club and fans are special' it is just spin. Merson, Ziege and Ravanelli were all talking about wanting to be managers one day. Do we give them a job?

Juninho IS a hero but he's only one of many for me, before and after. He was special at that moment but he will never be more important to me than Brucie and Mogga, Bernie, Coops, Gary Hamilton, Stuart Ripley. Those lads stuck around when the club almost went under. They DID love the club.

Posted by: Ste Mac  | October 27, 2008 1:52 PM

Jarkko wrote...

AV, Juninho is special and earns a one-off charity match off season. Think he and Afonso Alves in the same team one afternoon (just ONE).

But we have a player nearly as gifted as Juni now - and much more consistent. We should form a special bond here and now with Tuncay.

He is as pleasure to watch as Juninho, works much more and is more consistent. A future legend - and here now!

Posted by: Jarkko  | October 27, 2008 2:48 PM

tonyblack wrote...

**AV writes: So after all the talk about scientific professionalism, cutting edge fitness facilities, the Milan lab and the need to only employ those who are proven to be the best now you would have someone because they are nice and have a big smile?

You in a bad mood today mate ??? Or is it just because you can't stand all the Juni adolation !

If you want I can do a separate post bigging you up if you really feel left out - LOL !

I'm SURE I wrote... and i quote......

" I'd LOVE to see him working to start with in our youth set up and being on the bench at ALL the Senior games as an observer so that he could learn before one day giving him a shot IF he's good enough, as I think he would do wonders both for skill factor and because he's such a nice man who would inspire and add a welcome bit of that Samba magic. "

TB


Posted by: tonyblack  | October 27, 2008 2:50 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Ste Mac wrote...

" The idea that Juninho should sit in the dug-out every game waiting his time to take over is crazy. I know TB doesn't like GS but how far would he go to undermine the Gate's authority. "

I'd have him there to learn mate, why not? Why not start to get ready a future manager in this way? OK, it may not be Juni, but we could do it with anyone we are thinking about to replace GS, especially if we are going to replace one one time rookie for another.

He could learn from the Seniors and then apply it to the youth team whilst at the same time bringing in a different way of working that a continental has.

I suspect if we had given GS this opportunity he would have been much better as a result.

That's just my opinion.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 27, 2008 2:58 PM

Nigel wrote...

AV - You really should have published this article on Halloween because you've certainly unleashed a few demons! Great to have an article to get our teeth into!!

TB - AV has beaten me to it, but I'll repeat it none the less, suggesting we employ Juninho and Mendi because they were skillful players and 'nice' people, your credibility rating has just plummeted I'm afraid!

We all know that gifted players more often than not can't coach. I'd rather have a below average player who can manage his players............er, Alex Ferguson for example.

Posted by: Nigel  | October 27, 2008 3:36 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

People who have been fans for a long time forget that to some Boro simply did not exist before the Juninho era.

Its got to be said that the full house crowds and support we were getting back then are badly missed and too many fans sit there too quiet and nervous.

Gate has come out with some wise words -“Now we have to continue to get the ball into the right areas because Afonso will score goals given the opportunity.” Maybe the return of Arca will solve the central midfield magic problem slightly.I hope so!

just incase some of you are wondering where I stand on Juninho *ON THE 8TH DAY JUNINHO CREATED GOD*

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | October 27, 2008 3:44 PM

Chris from Beverley wrote...

League Cup semi final at Old Trafford
Banner in Stretford End Corner read:
"If God was a footballer, he would be called Juninho"

One of them small things in life that sticks in the back of the grey cells.

Moving away from the little fella for a minute, my little tantrum last week about Gary O'Neil must have worked. His passing was much better on Saturday. Obviously playing in new contact lenses ! Keep it up Gary....

Posted by: Chris from Beverley  | October 27, 2008 5:06 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

I have a lot of reading to do tonight and in the next few days, but having had a little peak at this latest topic makes me realise that if I come back every so often the blog will make for some light relief.

AV - do you like striding out onto the icy surface of the water, in order to test its thickness and strength? If you fall through, the ocean underneath may be cold and there might be the odd shark nosing about and wondering how sharp its teeth are these hungry days. I hope your wife has renewed the Life Insurance Policy.

You are clearly being a very naughty blogger. However there is a risk your techie friends will be complaining in the next couple of days as increased traffic causes the whole Trinity Mirror IT systems to come to a grinding halt.

Taking the name of TLF in vain might be brave, but will it be worth it? You might need to borrow a couple of the Gazette heavies for a few days if you venture out. The problem is that the angry mob all knows when and where you will be going on Wednesday evening. This may need to be "The Blog that's wearing a disguise".

Good Luck!

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | October 27, 2008 5:23 PM

steve h wrote...

AV, you've got it spot on. And most of the replies that are supposed to be in favour of Juninho, simply emphasise how right you are!

Posted by: steve h  | October 27, 2008 6:22 PM

Dave wrote...

Very much correct AV the little fellow was ok for us ,but he did get paid good money and he did jump ship,he is only thinking about himself. Chase the little man.

Posted by: Dave  | October 27, 2008 7:04 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

I recall one day there was a stricken tanker floundering on the scars off Redcar when this little fella appears from nowhere walks across the storm tossed seas and with one hand picks the stricken tanker out of the sea and walks on the water half way to the Netherlands and sets the tanker down in the middle of the North Sea safely to a chorus of cheers from the grateful crew.

Then there was the time when he was putting out a blaze in Hartlepool 15 mins before kick off, rescuing countless numbers of orphans before returning to the Riverside in time for 3.00pm as we the annointed stood in awe as the mighty River Tees parted before him as he walked across!

What about the night when Saltburn pier was wrecked and he rebuilt it singlehandedly before breakfast!

What about the hope, the dreams, the love, the inspiration, that TLF gave us Teessiders. Teessiders that were dirty Northern Scum to the FA who would never amount to anything and were unworthy of Premiership status let alone a World Cup winner in their midst!

I could swear I seen the image of TLF, ghosting around the 18 yard box just before Macca's miracles against Basle and Steaua.

Most important of all is that he was and still is a role model to our youth of the time, something that Merson, Ziege, Ravanelli, Boksic, Emerson and co could never be. Granted Mogga was great, Southgate loyal to the bone and Wilf a legend but one day about a decade ago a stranger came to our town and changed our club and our hearts forever!

Altogether now for repentance!

"Our Little Fella who art on Teesside hallowed be thy name,
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done in the 18 yard box as it was in midfield,
Give us this day our daily dribbles and forgive us the temptations of Zonal marking and those who score against us,
For thine is the Riverside, the power and the glory, for ever and ever Amen!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | October 27, 2008 7:25 PM

Malc wrote...

Ince? Haha AV, sounds like you've been on the sauce. He was rubbish for us, only tried in the last ten minutes (we ironically have the opposite nowadays!).

Yes, he was good at Man Utd, but should we say Boksic was a Boro great as he shone for Marseille?

Posted by: Malc  | October 27, 2008 8:04 PM

jc wrote...

AV - every club has its legends, and every legend is/was a flawed human being. Let's not knock our own for the sake of it.

What next? Will you be complaining that David Wheater isn't actually made out of rock at all, Pogatetz would probably rate at less than 1 on the Mohs scale, and it's simply ridiculous to say that Massimo could be in two places at once, let alone omnipresent!

We look at the past with a certain myopia, but I think it's healthy to remember the good stuff and let the bad fade from view, and even exaggerate - particularly when you're a Boro supporter!

Richard - isn't football the new religion? The day of worship is gradually being moved to Sunday too, if Sky has anything to do with it.

And this new Bible's going to be so much better to read than that old one, especially the Gospel According to Redcar Red.

Posted by: jc  | October 27, 2008 10:24 PM

Russ Broome wrote...

Juninho was brilliant but he made Boro a one man team. Every free-kick, corner, throw he had to take, every move went through him. I used to joke that he probably drove the team bus home too (although wasn't that Gazza's job?)

Because we were a one man team we were easily stopped. Other teams soon tumbled TLF. That is why we went three months without a win and why Pontius Kaarmark took him out of the game at Wembley.

To hear people talk now you would think every game that season was a massive entertaining 4-3 win or that we took teams apart but in fact Boro (with TLF) were RUBBISH that year.

Posted by: Russ Broome  | October 27, 2008 10:37 PM

Richard wrote...

jc (lower case - how appropriate!):
No offense jc! I just dont believe you're SoG. No more than TLF (upper case - how appropriate!).
We'll all be singin' AV Maria next!

Posted by: Richard  | October 28, 2008 12:03 AM

ithepider wrote...

Couldn't kick, couldn't score, took all the corners and not a single one got past the first defender, and, so predictable he was a defenders dream (one two on the edge of the box....without fail). Billy Ashcroft was better....at least he couldn't play at the back as well as not being able to play up front.

Posted by: ithepider  | October 28, 2008 12:59 AM

andrew daley wrote...

Is this rubbish deliberately written to raise the heckles of Boro supporters?
Juninho has been the one player since the Riverside was built who produced the kind of football that gets people talking and wanting to watch.Any question marks against him are churlish , sensationalist clap trap.He is the best player I have seen in a Boro shirt by an absolute mile and Ive been watching since 1977.Joke article , get with the real issues.

Posted by: andrew daley  | October 28, 2008 3:15 AM

Pat Mc (Dubai) wrote...

A bit on the heavy side AV.

The fact is, most of us if not all, like to have a hero in our life to admire and look up to, and the very nature of a hero means that are just that bit different to other mortals. If that hero-figure just happens to be from our very own football team then all the better.

Whilst there may very well be an argument that Southgate, Ince, Hickton, Slaven etc may have offered more to the team over a longer term, with respect to these guys, they are not hero material! Juninho is.

Heroes are Seve rather than Faldo, Best rather than Charlton, O’Sullivan rather than Hendry. Individuals who capture the imagination and excite. Juninho was that.

Flamboyance (in a sporting sense) is maybe the most suitable word here. How many times have we heard commentators say “there is nothing better to excite football fans than seeing a player in full flight running at defenders…”? Juninho was that.

And if the hero is a smiling, likeable, character who loves the area and the people then what more could we ask? Juninho IS that.

AV’s post seems to suggest that all Juninho supporters are a part of the ‘church’ or we are part of the ‘one eyed obsession’ club. Not so Anthony. I would say there are a very small percentage of fans that fit into in those categories. The rest of us simply love the man for who he is, the player he was and for what he did for Boro.

One more thing, my kids as teenagers then, couldn’t wait to reach the Riverside on a match day primarily to watch Juninho. They got the bug. Without him playing I fear they would have lost interest and turned away to do alternative ‘teenage things’ on Saturday afternoon. Today, as young adults, they are both season ticket holders. I wonder how many other families could also tell the same story.

Thanks Juninho, good luck mate.

Posted by: Pat Mc (Dubai)  | October 28, 2008 8:53 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

When it comes to football I've never really understood this nostalgia thing.

The reason I watch football is that it's one of the few things left that still has the capacity to be unpredictable and surprise you - OK it's becoming a little less so but still anything is possible (especially in Hull it seems).

So I prefer to look forward and enjoy the anticipation of victory rather than gloating over past successes - though I will enjoy reading all the weekend press after a win or good performance and bask in that 24 hour warm glow.

Perhaps that's why being a Boro fan gives me the edge over being a follower of a Big 4 club - expecting to win every game could make being a supporter forget that it's a sport of more than one outcome - then winning only becomes a high if it involves a trophy.

Anyway regarding Juninho - now that was a player who gave unpredictability a good name - from breathtaking skills to infruitating overly-optimistic runs - you just never knew what you'd get.

So give the man a break - he was the kind of player that watching football for me is all about - Besides he's only said he would like a walk on part in a pre-season friendly in order to say a fond goodbye to the Teeside public that he genuinely had feelings for.

So it doesn't sound like a crime of selfish ego and I'm even prepared to put my dislike of nostalgia to one side if it makes everyone happy.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 28, 2008 10:22 AM

Mr Average wrote...

As I understood it, AVs blog wasn't down playing the talent or importance of TLF (if anything he has overstated that with an over-elaboration the Boy from Brazil would be proud of) but it is about the OTT way people react to him - a point that has been underlined in some of the responses.

What has surprised me is that although I knew that many people gushed over Juninho and still loved him with a passion I never realised that there were so many sceptics (or 'heretics'). Maybe AV has tapped into somthing there.

For my part TLF sums up that golden era of the first two years at the Riverside leading to Wembley and the relegation - massive potential, moments of magic, hopes and dreams but also frustration that ultimately ended in tears.

I would rather he didn't come back. I don't want the golden memories tainted by a wheezy old bloke that sends people away disappointed.

Posted by: Mr Average  | October 28, 2008 10:45 AM

Mark wrote...

Its odd to see people talking about Juninho (and even Mendi) having the qualities to be coaches & managers largely based on the fact they are 'nice people'.

It might be just me but I see Southgates nice guy image as being a bad thing in terms of his ability to manage. Theres no pressure on players, no accountability for mistakes & poor performances, no motivational ability, no ability to send a verbal rocket up a players backside when needed, hell even the ref is immune from critisism & after a bad game can look forward to a group hug & a cup of tea.

I'm dont believe you need to be a nasty person to be a good manager, but a real tough streak is needed at times, our current manager lacks this & is it a coincidence the current team does as well?

We don't want to go down the same route in future & give a nice guy the job for purely sentimental reasons! I can't believe a lot of the same people who question Steve Gibsons motives for appointing Southgate are now suggesting we do the exact same thing all over again!

Posted by: Mark  | October 28, 2008 11:08 AM

John Stone wrote...

Dont Knock the guy !

He was our George Best,without the tantrums,and he loved playing for us!

Posted by: John Stone  | October 28, 2008 11:44 AM

CB wrote...

Has anyone actually listened to what he’s said? He hasn’t asked to be signed on, he hasn’t asked to be a coach, he hasn’t even asked for a testimonial. He’s asked to wear the shirt one last time in a pre-season friendly, not to run the youth team or have one last pay day.
This is a classic Boro fan reaction; I’m surprised you’ve found time in between booing Downing and slating Keith Lamb to write and respond!

Posted by: CB  | October 28, 2008 12:02 PM

danny wrote...

I never properly watched Juninho cos im only 13 but, if he got a full riverside and got us happy and bouncing I dont really see the problem with a testimonial of some sort. But looking to the future we have two legends in the making, DAVID WHEATER and TUNCAY!!!

Posted by: danny  | October 28, 2008 12:12 PM

Rainman007 wrote...

You are a brave man for writing this article but I have to say I agree with everything you have said, apart from the expensive mascot part, we have had more than enough expensive players doing little or nothing so their money.

Granted the little fella was a special player and was a brilliant signing, the first time around. However for me he never really managed to reach his potential on the pitch, which is probably why he ended up coming back to the Boro.

We have made bigger signings and have had better players so why the big hype about him? Probably because signing him was a big focal point in the new Boro era, but what did beating two or three men and then falling over on the half way line ever amount to? Harsh but true!

He was a good player once over and was paid accordingly but he moved on and so have Boro.


Posted by: Rainman007  | October 28, 2008 12:14 PM

john sully wrote...

Juninho is above criticism as is mendieta, reason being both were treated unfairly, both were pros to the end and both when a lot of our new wonder players gave up at the chelsea match would have played to the end.

Juninho did it all in 97 and Mendi especially in the arsenal game where we lost 7-0. People should at least give these players respect, not attack em when their careers are over.

Posted by: john sully  | October 28, 2008 1:07 PM

Beamishboro wrote...

Juninho was over rated. He left a sinking ship and came back to Boro because no one else wanted him. These foreign players spoil English football and I will carry on watching Sunderland rather than Boro until we buy British. These foreign mercenaries are all that are wrong with the game. Give me mogga and the class of 86 any day.

Posted by: Beamishboro  | October 28, 2008 2:43 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

As mendi has got a few mentions and we have devoted column inches to corners one of those odd memories popped into my head.

I remember sitting in the stand in the second leg of our semi against Arsenal and the Gunners getting a corner. All these giants trotted forward followed by TLF, Mendi and Bolo to mark them. There wasnt even much point putting them on the post!

A final thought on the TLF debate, I cant see the problem with him turning out for a friendly, a 20 minute cameo would be appreciated by all true fans.

Or how about a legends game before a pre season friendly? Boro legends against a North East select 11. That could be a real moneyspinner with food and merchandising. Maybe Setanta could put it on as well.

All a bit sensible so I had better stop. One suspects that Lambie is an unforgiving type and the thought of TLF and Bernie on the pitch would upset him.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 28, 2008 2:59 PM

Neil M wrote...

As an individual TLF was a fantastic talent who had bags of tricks and got the crowd buzzing and I loved him to bit. But as a team player, well, the facts are he wasn't great for Boro.

Before he arrived Boro had a good team with the Barmby - Higgy - Fjortoft combination and finished ninth and things looked good. Adding Juninho upset the balance and the shape.

The season the team was built around him was awful. I don't know where people get the idea it was all 4-3s and excitement. Apart from a three week spell in October (beat West Ham, Cov, Hereford) It was more 3-1, 4-1 defeats and total chaos. That season almost broke the club.

Everyone used to blame the defence but they were usually under pressure because he had lost the ball after dragging Boro out of shape with a matador run and the opposition came straight through the holes (and past the statue of Emerson) then past Curtis to score.

Second time he was here on loan he was poor and well short after injury and it was only after he was dropped (for Summerbell!!!) that results picked up.

Third time he was injured and Boro played well with Job in the hole but when he came back there results and displays quickly dropped off and only the CC run saved the season.

The UEFA Cup meant Mac could attract JFH and Viduka and the shape changed for the better. There wasn't a hole and because there would be hell on if he was on the bench he was bombed out (and the Juninho FC crowd went mental saying it was a disgrace etc) but next year was the best ever in the Prem. Mac was right. Boro were a better TEAM without him and the TEAM is the important thing.

People need to take off the Juninho tinted glasses and see the truth. It is Boro that matters not individuals. Well done AV.

Posted by: Neil M  | October 28, 2008 4:12 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

In all our grumblings how about some good news?

So far 115,119 fans have come through the gates to see us against Chelsea, Spurs, Stoke and West Brom.

Last season saw 101,893 watch Chelsea, Spurs, Derby and Brum. Derby and Brum were promoted clubs and the same distances roughly as Stoke and the Baggies.

That is a healthy increase on comparable matches.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 28, 2008 4:47 PM

beamish boro wrote...

This whole Juninho love in is embarassing. We laugh at the Geordies with their obsession over Keegan but we are just as bad with Juninho.

We should all move on and concentrate on getting behind Southgate and Downing.

I might start going to games if that happens.

Posted by: beamish boro  | October 28, 2008 6:47 PM

westypop wrote...

How about giving the TLF a job as our South American scout. He might even un earth the next little brazilian genius.

Posted by: westypop  | October 28, 2008 7:26 PM

Jon Smith  wrote...

AV:

Im gobsmacked... I second a post earlier who said there is much bigger issues to contend with than to write a page of dribble about the credentials of TLF.

My memories of the riverside are Juninho, he made the games worthwhile i have not and repeat will never see a single player take apart Man u like he did that drenched evening. Whether he left the sinking ship, didn't attend the Carling cup celebration you can not knock what he brought to middlesbrough, the whole perception of 'Boro' changed and with that it brought optimism.

I have read some ridiculous articles in my time but this Anthony takes the biscuit. Lets get him back in the Riverside and raise the roof cause at the minute you could hold a seminar in that ground and not get disturbed.

Posted by: Jon Smith  | October 28, 2008 7:38 PM

Nick Rafferty wrote...

This is the player who cant take corners tackle take free kicks shall I go yes could beat players tho. However he still left sharpish straight after the cup final defeat and relegation nowhere to be seen unlike Emerson who stayed played thro injury would rather see him back anyday

Posted by: Nick Rafferty  | October 28, 2008 7:47 PM

Jarkko wrote...

Earlier I suggested that Juni would be great to see in one - just one - friendly match.

But let the ideas fly - Boro need an 'old' head to the midfield. If GS want an old head before Christmas he has to look for a player without a contract. Then ...

Posted by: Jarkko  | October 28, 2008 8:05 PM

Stew wrote...

Having done some brief, and amateurish research, courtesy of Wikipedia, it states that after TLF retired from professional football, he "hopes to carry on coaching in skill schools in Brazil".

This sounds to me that this is aimed at the younger generation of children, rather than full-time professionals. Perhaps AV or others may be able to enlighten further?

If this is so, is there a market in this country, indeed in Boro, for honing these skills at a young age? Most certainly.

As a club outside the 'Big 4', do we need to maximise the potential coming through our academy? Absolutely.

Is Juninho the right person to help bring these skills out of local youngsters? I have no idea!

As has been said many times before, a great player doesn't necessarily make a great manager/coach. If it can be seen that he has an effect on Brazilian youngsters then I'd like to think that the club could make him a reasonable offer in a coaching capacity, at a similar level. If he does think as highly of the Boro as he says, and its not just spin, he would surely jump at the chance, and not demand an exorbitant wage.

I have no problem at all with a testimonial/legends/Boro select match featuring TLF, it would certainly pack the Riverside (and give us a home game during pre-season - now that would be unusual!) and the club would deffo make a few quid on the side, not least on limited edition Juninho shirts and Brazil flags.

Alternatively, or even in addition to this, an appearance or two at a few of the home games _should_ get the crowd going and raise the atmosphere, which _should_ in turn give the players a lift and maybe we can be 2 or 3 goals clear before the dreaded injury time...or perhaps I'm just clutching at green and yellow straws...

PS: Beamish, if you prefer watching Sunderland, then why don't you go and read and post on the Sunderland blogs instead. The main reason we can't buy British is because we can't afford it. e.g. James Milner £12m - a decent player but way out of our price range.

Posted by: Stew  | October 28, 2008 9:19 PM

jc wrote...

Since I've criticised GON's passing in the past, I have to praise his sublime ball to Alves for his goal at the weekend - beautiful! More like that please, Gary.

Posted by: jc  | October 28, 2008 11:30 PM

Steve Burke wrote...

Juninho scored the winner against man City in the fifth round of the FA Cup in 1997. We were shockig that day but he won it and helped us get to the final. He scored the winner against Arsenal at Highbury in the 1st Leg Semi in the Carling Cup that set us on our way to Cardiff.

He played in that final and helped us into Europe. I think that without him we might not have had those glory nights at the Riverside.

He wasn't the greatest player ever but he is damn close and w should never forget what he did for the boro not just on the ptch but also for the profile of the club off the pitch.

Posted by: Steve Burke  | October 29, 2008 9:24 AM

stockton red wrote...

I think the biggest heroes are the ones you had as a kid. My personal Boro favourites were Souness and Maddren for that reason. As you get older you dont idolise players in the same way and the money they are on is a turn off for the older generation of fan.

With regard to the comment by BeamishBoro above I assume this is a wind up but if it's not how stupid is this character. He states he will carry on watching Sunderland until Boro buy British and not foreign mercenaries. Presumably he's overlooked the fact that the mackem team on Saturday had such British stalwarts as Cisse Diouf Malbranque Chimbonda Fulop Tainio Kenwyne and Dwight Yorke with not a single player born in the North of England in the team.

Posted by: stockton red  | October 29, 2008 9:43 AM

Grove Hill wallah wrote...

Before everyone gets too misty eyed let's not forget, it was Steve Gibson's foresight and Bryan Robson's ability to attract top players to the Boro that are the real foundations of Boro's 11 year stay in the Premiership.

Posted by: Grove Hill wallah  | October 29, 2008 10:02 AM

jiffy wrote...

A few points:

Firstly in response to queries about Juninho's possible coaching/involvement with kids. He was certainly very actively involved in Simon Clifford's early forays into that Brazilian style game with a smaler than normal ball so yes he can work well with youngsters.

Secondly with crowds plummeting Juninho would certainly bring a few thousand back then its down to the rest of the club to keep those returnees coming back week after week.

It has been suggested that both Juninho and Mendieta could have a coaching role at the club. It seems to me that if they could just impart a little of their close control skills to our up and coming Academy products then they have a role - to be able to collect the ball, control it and use it swiftly is a priceless ability in modern football and one where British players and coaches are weakest.

If they could just add that to our coaching armoury then they would be worth adding to the staff. And would not our keepers benefit from their ability to move the modern football in the air in their training routines?

Boro have a terrific record for producing decent players out of the academy - Dave Parnaby and staff have done a wonderful job. But we don't have a great record of moving those talents on to become Premiership quality and thats hardly surprising given the woeful standard of reserve team football.

Many have made it to the first team but are widely regarded by the fans as not good enough. What we do is send them out on loan and with that there is always the risk that our best talents do not progress beyond Championship level or worse do so with other clubs having first gone there on loan and opted to stay.

And frankly why should Josh Walker sit on the bench all season after a good year at Aberdeen? Why should Johnson sit it out after his time at Watford showed his true potential? I wish we had Dario Gradi's ability to turn so many of those promising youngsters into full internationals - that is where we should be looking to improve our coaching staff - to bridge that gap between Youth Cup winners to Premiership regulars. Could Juninho and Mendieta be part of that?

Posted by: jiffy  | October 29, 2008 11:55 AM

Neil  wrote...

All I can say is arguably one of the best footballers to pull on a boro shirt rated him as the best player he had seen & that was wilf Mannion who told me that at his nieces wedding about 10-11 yrs ago

Posted by: Neil  | October 29, 2008 1:56 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Beamishboro, If you are going to say you will come to the Riverside once people start getting behind Soutgate and Downing then why not ,come to the Riverside and get behind Southgate and Downing yourself?

The other week at the Riverside Downing wasnt playing to the level we know he can and some fans were getting on his back and although I agreed that he wasnt at the races I still stood up and yelled "keep going Stewy!'

Sitting at home watching Sunderland is cobblers - unless you are a Sunderland fan that is?

The Prem has no restrictions on players from abroad and as someone has already said for the quality they are cheaper. I dont want us to have as many as Arsenal but we must try and compete in this league Juninho was from Brasil as is Alves and Tuncay is not English either, yes this is probably detremental to the English game when we try and play as a country but until the laws are changed regarding players from abroad we are stuck with it .

If Tuncay was English how much would he cost and would he want to come to play for Boro and at what cost ? Thats why we havent got Rooney mate!

So get behind the Boro and lets have no more Sunderland nonsense please .

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | October 29, 2008 2:05 PM

dave wrote...

What could he coach? The best and most fancy jinking run he made was the when he could'nt get away from our club quick enough just to preserve his Brazil benchwarmer status.

Posted by: dave  | October 29, 2008 2:18 PM

block2 wrote...

20,000+ fans for a reserve game...thats appreciation....TLF!!! was no superman, but he was and still is a hero.

Posted by: block2  | October 29, 2008 4:13 PM

BeamishbBoro wrote...

Beamishboro is yet another imposter on this blog.

I am the real Beamish Boro and anyone who knows me knows that I post regularly on FMTTM as either Beamish_Boro or durham_smoggy.

Get lost you troublemaking imposters

**AV writes: I will keep an eye on the situation.

Posted by: BeamishbBoro  | October 29, 2008 11:25 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Well, a FANTASTIC result, and if truth be told we were robbed of a spectacular goal and the three points in our last game.

What we need now is a lot of self belief and a lot more consitency.

Well done all, a great result and a great nights work.

Now lets kick on and string a few results together.

To top of a great night we also have the bragging rights of being top boys in the North East !!!

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 29, 2008 11:28 PM

BrisbanePhil wrote...

OK - Quarter time review.

Done with the added benefit of watching 8 of the 10 matches live, and the other 2 in full (I still find it amazing we get more live games here in Brisbane than we do back home!)
10 games - 13 points - looks like we'll finish around 50 points for the season... but if we stop conceding silly late goals, i think we are all in agreement with JP here 20 points from the first 10 games would have been a great start.

Turnbull - wow - were we all wrong...? he looks good - and certainly GS view that there's not much better available is looking correct at the momemt. (thank God we didn't sign Gomez!)Maybe Turnbull still has some way to go, but he wants to be here and he cares when he concedes.

Defence - Hoyte - jury still out. Thank god Wheater is so versatile and we didn't let Riggott go. We're a different team when Poggi plays in the middle. Huth - take as long as you need mate! - left back still an issue, but the real issue is the cover (remember teh Chelski game)- let's hope we can stay injury free until Jan.

Midfield - Finally look like we have it in the centre - hope Shawky likes the bench now Digard firing. JA looks useful wide right but Stewy - keep working hard son and remember- we all love you - and GS rememebr "Class is Permanent, form is temporary" - so don't succombe to temptation in Jan. Again need one as cover in Jan, preferably one who can play wide right AND in the middle when need arises- let's hope Arca gets mended soon or maybe let's have a look at Emnes..

UP Front - Alves - when he tries looks good, better prospect than Mido. Mido really cares but tempts us into long balls too often, and on the eigth day Juninho created TUNCAY - 'nuff said! - please keep Boro's next legend in cotton wool as we look class when he plays.

The dugout - need to learn their lessons! looks like they might be. 15 points from next 8 games will set us up for an exciting Xmas and who knows what in 2009,

C'mon Boro!!

Posted by: BrisbanePhil  | October 30, 2008 1:35 AM

Malc wrote...

Here's a topic for you, Vic: the Childish Spoilt Brat Attitude of Managers.

Mark Hughes was a whinging, nasty sod hwen he played and of course he's carried that joylessness over into management. Didn't say a nice word about Boro and just blamed it all on the ref.

Contrast with Gareth who graciously accepts defeat and genuinely means it when he says, "things even out over the season."

And to think the class-warriors at the Boro prefer another malcontent, Roy Keane. You'll never please the discontent woking classes it seems when there's a polite middle class guy at the helm. Our club will stay small with the kind of "chip on the shoulder" attitude shared by Hughes, Keane and oh too many Boro supporters.

Posted by: Malc  | October 30, 2008 4:20 AM

Mohammad Abdullah wrote...

Now then Richard

So where does this Atheist Bus go to then?

All those years ago when I lived in the Boro I got either the "R" or the "Q", I think the "Q" was the longer ride though. I could have got the "Z" but it meant a walk from Marton Road, the "C" or the "D" only took me as far a Belle Vue.

Words meanings change through use. AV cannot be a heretic as Juninho was not a religious icon. Footballers cannot be deified, they are simply entertainers (in most cases!). This is simply journalistic licence, eventually though, unfortunately the original meaning of the word will be lost

Neither can Juninho be a legend in the proper sense of the word, because his deeds are part of our present memories.

Let's get back to football.

This type of stuff will get us nowhere, rather like the Atheist bus I suspect.

**AV writes: Without opening that particular can of worms again, my point is that some people DO treat Juninho as a religious icon (although that said, there is always a smidgeon of artistic licence in there too).

Posted by: Mohammad Abdullah  | November 1, 2008 10:03 AM

Captain Sensible wrote...

Strange is it? I love TLF but do agree with what you say. Perhaps we were sold the dream. We knew Arsenal wanted him but he chose us because of our efforts to sign him.

He had scored the wonder free kick against England some months earlier - he was a current Brazilian international who chosen Boro over bigger and better clubs - The folklore is already written.

In stature he was a wide eyed boy, he brought his family with him, he not only raised our expectations, hopes and dreams, but he raised our sympathies. He battled against great lurching centre halfs who could have snapped him in half.

In terms of hopes and dreams he was a reflection of the new Boro. We were out doing the big boys - this little club from Middlesbrough was wide eyed and a boy against men - Juninho encapsulated all that. That is why I think he is a legend and always will be despite his obvious mortality.

Posted by: Captain Sensible  | November 1, 2008 11:10 AM

The Reveller wrote...

I am guessing you're not a fan of his then...

Posted by: The Reveller  | November 4, 2008 10:36 AM

Eccythump wrote...

The whole point of adoration like this is that it is illogical, has very little to do with reality, but fills us with a lovely warm glow.

Are you going to deny us our lovely warm glow in this harshest of winters?

Posted by: Eccythump  | November 7, 2008 8:41 PM

Post a comment

(If you haven't left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won't appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.)

Advertiser