Gate's Century: Dawn Of A New Era?

Phil McThomas wrote...

That team for Reading is very interesting - just three first-teamers plus 2-3 marginal players from the entire 16 are still around.

It's not hard to pinpoint the reason why fans find it harder to get passionate about the team when they are almost entirely replaced every 2 years. There are even players who have come and gone in that time - Young and Woodgate for instance.

I think it's fair to say that the average home league game has been more enjoyable under Southgate than McClaran. I'd take "70 minutes of good football then a sucker punch" over "70 minutes of dire huffing-and-puffing followed by a sucker punch".

Posted by: Phil McThomas  | September 30, 2008 3:14 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

I think the vast majority of fans are supportive of Gates attempts to move the club forward towards a bright future. He is clearly being guided by Steve Gibsons vision for Boro and as such is probably constrained by that very vision.

I certainly like the football they are trying to play and would not like to return to some of the deliberately turgid displays of the past.

The difficulty he is facing is the inability to kill games off, and this is not a new phenomenon. (We can all think back to matches under Mac where we surrendered good positions) The same issues keep resurfacing of missing chances and letting in silly goals, defending too deep but not marking people - we had six red shirts and a keeper in the six yard box and a lumbering centre half clambered to his feet to score with no one in attendance.

The danger he faces is the dreaded Taylor ten match mantra. It is easy to see us getting nothing out of Wigan and Chelsea though points do come from the oddest sources and at the oddest times. We have been playing well in patches but not scoring and getting the points we need. That can be looked on as a positive but we remember Boro being everyones favourite team under Rioch.
There are plenty of points to play for but we would like a few more under the belt and now rather than later.

I dont think he can really change the style because of the players we have available. There isnt the experience at the back and we are always likely to be either attacking or defending, it doesnt appear as if we can play out time in the way Liverpool, Chelsea or ManU can.

Any calls for player x, y or z wont do us any good until towards the end of the season because they wont be here before the end of Jan, they may not be fully fit and will take time to bed in.

So Gate has to do it with what we have got. They say you cant teach an old dog new tricks, our puppies seem determined not to be house trained and resolutely refuse to learn lessons. Whilst the season is only six matches old if we continue to struggle to put points on the board and end up bouncing around just out of the bottom three then pressure will grow.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | September 30, 2008 4:12 PM

paul bell wrote...

Anybody who supports GS,must be an absolute brainless moron,the man is a clown,a muppet ,makes MFC a laughing stock

**AV writes: I thought about not publishing this comment, partly because every time you post the other paul bell (with the same e-mail address) complains about imposters besmirching his name and partly because your posts appear to be contradictory, deliberately provocative and generally consist of insulting people. I have let it go on the off-chance that you may think it is a genuine contribution to the debate.

Posted by: paul bell  | September 30, 2008 4:50 PM

Richard wrote...

I'm quite heartened by the number of posts on here from the likes of Jiffy, Nigel and 'Ignorant' who despite seeing the points return fall away dramatically in the last 3 league matches remain upbeat about the prospects for the longer term.

In previous seasons, I imagine there could have been a veritable flood of awfully negative postings calling for the manager's head already. However, although a few are making warning noises, on balance, there seems to be a more patient resignation in the air based on an appreciation of the style of football that Southgate's trying to make work and the direction he's been taking with the squad reconstruction, albeit we're a bit light in certain areas.

Having done some numerical goal-time analysis, I agree with those who have mentioned already on the basis of match observation and gut-feel, that the main cause for concern is our inability to convert the chances we're making.

However, what the analysis throws into focus is a suspicion that to create those chances, we're having to play a relatively high-energy game from the off. And because we're not building that goals cushion earlier in matches, when we weaken - and we HAVE weakened badly in the closing stages of most matches - we're conceding enough goals to do serious points damage. One is usually enough to drop two points and two almost certainly enough to see us leave pointless, because of the small margins in our matches to date.

I'm not sure what Southgate means when he says we must "get back to basics", but worryingly, that was Steve McClaren's stock-phrase for public consumption when defence consolidation was on the cards.

I'm not saying this is a wrong approach when winning ugly or scraping draws is required, but some of the 'flair approach' may have to be sacrificed if energy is to be conserved a bit so that Boro can be a 95-minute competitive side, instead of the 80 minute side they have been in most matches so far.

The judicious use of the bench to substitute for 'spent legs' in high-mileage positions is also a tactic to employ.

However, I'm sure that all of these issues are well-recognised by Boro's management and coaching team and that it's only a matter of time until they're appropriately addressed!!

Also, anything that can be done, such as close personal coaching of individual strikers, to sharpen up the chance conversion rate performance of the strike force would be a welcome piece of attention.

It needs to be remembered that it's not skittles. The idea is to avoid hitting the goalkeeper, the crossbar, the post, either corner flag and the guy on Row 23 of the North Stand!

Posted by: Richard  | September 30, 2008 6:19 PM

John B wrote...

Just read Richard's thoughtful piece and it made me wonder who is the Boro Attacking Coach? I've got a nasty feeling we don't have one.

Posted by: John B  | September 30, 2008 8:17 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Now wait on damn minute here...

Too soon to judge???

What???

Have I logged onto the Beano blog by mistake?

After 100 games this is still a work in progress. Haha. Da Vinci took less time to paint his chapel in Rome.

"We've turned the corner"

"Steely Boro past Stoke test"

"Stew and Aliadiere are the best in the league"

So now that we are 1 game away from dropping into the bottom 3, as we always seem to be doing we get...

"Back to basics"

Back to basics??? What exactly were people doing in the off season? What training did they give the players?

Back to basics, a la John Major, is a shocking enditment of the failings of GS and CC and Mr Crosby and Co.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

GS said to "Judge me this year" and judge him WE WILL.

We should NEVER have put a rookie in charge of our club. Italy did it with Donadoni in the hope he would come good and we rightly got booted out.

GS and CC and Mr Crosby and Co. Sorry guys, but I made my mind up from day one and nothing I have seen or heard has changed that.

I for one can't wait for the day they get the bullet.

Sorry.

Can't score? Who exactly bought these players?

Can't win away? Who exactly trains these players?

No better keepers on the market? GS said he didn't buy not through lack of money but because he thinks what he has is better. Ok fine, but then he's to blame if it goes wrong, as with anything else.

No excuses. League position. End of story.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | September 30, 2008 9:01 PM

Stockport Wiggy wrote...

We should all be chuffed to bits to have GS in charge at our club. Combined with Gibbo we have a set up rivalled by no other club of our ilk. GS gives the impression we are ‘his club’, he is in it for the long-haul and that he is trying to build something of quality and stability. This in comparison to managers of other clubs who will/would/have jump to the ‘next level’ when the opportunity comes round (Bruce – NUFC, Keane – UTD, Hughes – City), only returning to harvest the best players.

Sure, his media –trained post match comments can grate, his barnet is dodgy, and the debacle against Cardiff will live long in the memory, but following that he pulled us back from the edge when we could easily have spiralled out of control and into the championship.

The only reason we haven’t had our best start for years is coz our no 9, sorry 12, has borrowed the boots Tuncay had on at Blackburn last season. Now is the time to really get behind GS and the team, or a fresh entertaining side will falter in the quagmire of boo boy inflicted self doubt! Here’s to the next ton. COME ON BORO!

Posted by: Stockport Wiggy  | September 30, 2008 9:07 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

Most of us are desperate for Gate to succeed but the continued repeated errors week in week out are worrying signs. If Zonal was a striker he'd be worth £40M because he is obviously the biggest opposition threat in our box.

Failure to have fitness levels that last 95 minutes or conversely tactics that are designed to last 95 minutes. Not dropping players who are off form and consequently playing them into ever decreasing and depressing circles. The re-emergence of Chuckle Brother syndrome "to me to you" passing which threatens absolutely nothing and no-one. Lacking the blatantly obvious defence splitting through ball which seems the only way Alves can score. Playing players out of position, (centre backs at either LB or RB, LB playing in midfield, Strikers playing Right Wing or even Left Wingers playing Right Wing etc.etc.). Bizarre injuries, C'mon was Arca fit to be on the bench at Sunderland or not, is Emnes a bad anagram of Enigma?

Goalkeeping wise I think I can understand his original logic but Gamblers usually Gamble when they are on a roll, Losers chance things against all odds. Claims that if the squad was too big the young lads would never get a chance yet Walker is overlooked in favour of a LB, Strikers who couldn't score over the border yet Craddock gets splinters in his derriere.

We can all see it so therefore the opposition managers can see it. The sooner Gate learns to change the shape of the game the better. I remember another Manager who used to stand looking lost at the side of the Pitch and spent his post match interviews mumbling non plussed about the opposition's "quality players", after two seasons the similarities are starting to show!

Lets hope we don't need to turn to El Tel come January to "get tough" again.

Posted by: Redcar Red  | September 30, 2008 10:03 PM

Mr Average  wrote...

I think Gareth Southgate's first 100 have been good. Unless you think Boro should a Champions League team in which case they are a disaster and the "muppet" should be sacked.

They are good because Boro are still in the big league. Yes, most of the first two seasons we were bottom half and in danger of being dragged in but howay, this is Boro. We have finished in the top half of the Prem twice. We have finished in the top eight of the top division twice since the war.

In the Gazette you gave the figures compared to Mac's first 100 and there wasn't a lot in it. My guess is that you compared the first 100 of all Boro's managers ever there wouldn't be much between the top half dozen.

Bruce Rioch's figures probably look the best because two successive promotion but that was third and second division. Robbo had a promotion from the second.

Charlton would be the best by far because he had a promotion, a good finish in the first division in his first year AND a march to glory in the Anglo-Scottish Cup.

Some of the bed-wetters that pass for Boro fans now would have gone mental over him because not only was he a rookie but he played defensive football and was rubbish in the transfer market (free transfer crock from Scotland?)

It is no good complaining that GS is a rookie. Practically all Boro's bosses in the last 30 years have been rookies. For Mac, Robbo, Toddy, Charlton it was their first job. Bruce had been at Torquay. Neal had been at Wrexham. Lawrence was the most experienced and he was a perenial relegation battler at Charlton.

People who expect Hiddink or Trappatoni and Europe in the first year are tapped.
Historically mid-table in the top flight is bloody good going for Boro.

GS has done that twice so far playing entertaining football. My money is on him getting better too. Here's to the next 100.

Posted by: Mr Average  | September 30, 2008 10:06 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

100 games too soon to judge? Are you having a laugh? Most bosses don't even last 100 games.

For me GS has made no difference to Boro at all. We are no further forward, if anything we've gone backwards since Eindhoven.

GS has lost good players and replaced them with average ones. We still can't beat West Brom or Sunderland, just missing more chances in doing it.

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | September 30, 2008 10:09 PM

mickymac wrote...

So tony black made up his mind from day one. How informed and non-judgemental.

Gareth southgate knows he has to deliver this season on the park but it's important that the club is well structured and run off it and I believe it is. Ramos at Spurs won a cup last season, now he's on the verge of the sack and Ferguson won nothing for 3 years at Man utd. (no I'm not likening G.S to him)

Sometimes (to contradict Vic) you are going forwards by not going backwards.

Posted by: mickymac  | September 30, 2008 10:14 PM

BLT wrote...

Tony Black in shock "made up mind on day one and won't change it no matter what" shock. Boring. Look, he got shot of your mate Maccarone. So would 95% of the rest of us. Get over it.

Anyway, why are you getting wound up over 100 games when you have admitted that you made your judgement and put your blinkers on after ONE?

For most of us reasonable ones with a realistic view of where Boro are and were when he took over two seasons IS too soon to judge.

First year he had his hands tied and was stuck with McClaren's ageing team. The second season he started to get his own team together, players and style. Third season? Yes third season you can judge, I will too - but not after SIX games.

Posted by: BLT  | September 30, 2008 10:30 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Stockport Wiggy

I'm with you, mate! I think we're really lucky to have GS (and SG, of course!)

By the way, do you travel to home games from Stockport? So does my brother (with me, from Lancashire).

Keep the faith guys and gals. Pretty soon we are gonna give someone a right tonking.

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | September 30, 2008 10:54 PM

chris wrote...

I agree ... I made my mind up on day one about Southgate.But i did that becouse i was promised a top drawer manager by Gibson after Mac left.

We all winge and wine about Mac but he produced a top half europe getting season and a cup.We have since he left stagnated or gone backwards....fact...no matter how you look at it.

Yes we all want a good team to watch on saturday... yes we want to connect with that team and feel it is local.... but i feel we are trying to be the Crewe of the premiership. We have basically given up on competing and winning or even finishing in the top six. We are happy with survival which is a far cry from not so many years ago when we where promised the world and got nothing.

I will support Boro even if they play Sunday football but lets not joke ourselves ... Southgate will not get sacked no matter what and we are no longer trying to compete. We are purely trying to survive in the premier league and that is the game plan.

Posted by: chris  | October 1, 2008 12:56 AM

Forever Dormo wrote...

One of the best things about this blog is that it gives tonyblack the chance to vent his anger.

Go on, son! Get it all out, mate!

Hopefully you will feel a little better.

I am sometimes minded to send a very critical piece - often after a bad result. Occasionally I want to send a joyously optimistic piece - after we have had a good result. I have recently decided it is best to count to 250, leave it a day or so and THEN hit the computer keyboard. The result is usually less splenetic than would otherwise be the case.

That is not to say that over-critical or over-optimistic posts won't wing their way to Untypical Boro. Well maybe not quite so many. Unless fortified by that bottle of Rioja that almost cried out when the steak hit the dinner plate, but nobody's perfect. Differing views add to the joy of reading it, unless they are just insulting.

And just how many personalities does Paul Bell possess? Does one alter ego periodically wrest control from the other? If we sneaked around to his house, would we get a view of the "nice" Paul Bell temporarily bound and gagged, waiting for his alter-ego to fall asleep after the "bad" Paul Bell has finished typing in to the Blog? Or is he, as they say in these parts: "Jokin' aren't you?"

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | October 1, 2008 1:18 AM

Neil (USA) wrote...

As usual, I enjoyed reading the blog entry and the comments on it. Got me thinking...

What do we (the supporters) want? I'm not sure that there's one answer to that. Some of us seem to want European football year in and year out while some of us seem to be happy with us surviving in the big league.

In some masochistic way, I like the idea of us being a maverick club, refusing to sell out when most of football seems to have lost its soul. Whether that approach will ever catapult us into the top reaches of the league is doubtful, but I tend to agree with Mr. Average and his assessment of the current state of things.

As Thomas Paine once wrote, "these are the times that try men's souls..."

We'll find out who the men on the team are in the next couple of games, just as we'll find out who the "fair weather supporters" are (if we don't know already.

Come on Boro! Let's bounce back...like good old Charlie Brown, I'm going to try to kick the football...AGAIN!

The sooner Tuncay comes back the better.

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | October 1, 2008 2:25 AM

Smoggy In Exile wrote...

100 games in and, in terms of league position and "end results" we've had little progress. There seems to be something endemic to Boro that we will always give the promoted teams a fair crack at beating us, and will always contrive to lose our bottle away from home.

Under GS the only thing that has changed in this respect is that we're getting more kudos from the press for the way we lose. Almost like a pitying "they went down with style".

Let's just hope that come the end of the season they aren't extending that sentence to "they went down to the Championship with style".

There are two ways to get points, score goals and not concede them. For me, I'm not worried about our inability to TAKE chances, I'm worried about our inability to STOP them. Six games and no clean sheets. Mac may have delivered some dross football, but when he came he shored us up and made us hard to beat.

Arguably, if GS played this way he would be more successful. As Richard said, we seem to tire after 80mins. GS now has the players, and the pace, to exploit these weaknesses in the opposition - so why aren't we using them?

I hope that his "back to basics" refers to making ourselves difficult to beat - because I think we could really rip some teams apart (when playing away) on the counter attack - but not if we spend most of the game ineffectually huffing and puffing.

If we keep a clean sheet against Wigan, regardless of whether we score, I would see it as a lesson learned. A lesson which apparently we've already learned 5 times this season. Let's see the results of it then!

Posted by: Smoggy In Exile  | October 1, 2008 7:45 AM

tonyblack wrote...

As always the rose tinted brigade can only ever mock. Not one of can or does ever answer any of my points.

Yes, I judged him from day one and won't change my mind, but at least I offer up points of debate and do try to debate even if you guys don't agree with me and just dismiss me. I have never just come in here and hurled abuse.

So why don't we debate?

Why are we having to go back to basics if GS, CC and Crosby did their jobs properly in the off season? Shouldn't we be at the stage of fine tuning and kicking on?

We can't win away for love nor money? Why not? Am I to blame for this?

Why can't we last out a game without perennially conceding late on?

Only a mad man punts his entire reputation on two keepers that no one rates coming out and stating that he didn't buy because there were none better on offer. What exactly does this say about peoples judgement at the club?

Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee. GS and CC and Co, great chaps and all that but poor at what they do.

We'd better just pray we beat Wigan or else the fan will be full of it.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 1, 2008 7:55 AM

Nigel wrote...

I've just lost a longish post very frustrating, so this will be brief.

GS has my full support, I like the players he has bought and the style of play we now produce.

This season the progress is very obvious, what is also obvious is that we need to be more ruthless in front of goal and concentrate more at the back for 90+ minutes.

GS needs to get into the players minds and make them believe, do that and we can make the top third. This season though I suggest we'll be around 10th/11th, which will be satisfactory.

As for TB, condemned by his own words I think.

As for 100 games in charge has he made sufficient progress, well I would ignore season one, he was effectively a caretaker having being given (and accepted) the job out of the blue with no preparation. The real work in rebuilding the team didn't begin until the end of his first season.

Posted by: Nigel  | October 1, 2008 9:09 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Smoggy in exile:

We have attended the lessons but stubbornly the players refuse to listen. Are the players sat at their desks with fingers in their ears shouting lalala at the top of their voices.

Or maybe it is in the mind, they think they wont keep a clean sheet and the opposition think the same. What is more our players know they know and the opposition know we know they know.

Or as TB says are they not fit enough to last 95+ mins.

Or is it the area of substitutions where we are letting ourselves down by timing, choice etc.

The finishing is a totally different matter. Some people take a positive out of the number of chances we are creating. I dont because if we cant score when we are on top with chance after chance I suspect when we play better teams we wont get the chances. The pretty football at Liverpool still had them dominating in terms of possession and chances, the pretty football at Sunderland got us 0 goals and 0 points.

I still like the way we are playing, I dont want deadly dull football but time will tell if we will be succesful.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 1, 2008 9:33 AM

stockton red wrote...

The "sack the manager" brigade are a disease of modern football. If you go on any of the national chatboards the armchair fans of the big four are at it after any single defeat.

You can understand this - they only attach themselves to these clubs because they are supposed to win every week. For mid ranking clubs its uasually three bad results and it starts.Last weekend it was Moyes out Ramos out Southgate out etc.etc.

I dont agree with everything Southgate does. I said we were a midfielder short and I believe his continued selection of Aliadiere on the right wing is wrong.I believe that the last two defeats are down to the players failing to take chances including a penalty primarily rather than any managerial mistakes. Also as a paying spectator I would say each home game this season has been worth the admission money.

What I do know is that it is not a totally fair comparison to look at now / 4 years ago because of the massive financial changes that have occured in football in that time.The reality now is that we cant compete with half of the league financially.

Even Sunderland are being bankrolled by some billionaire Irish /American who has provided Keane with £35m to spend this summer. Our net spend this summer was nil and we slashed the wage bill.

It's not us going backwards in my view we are having to pedal ever harder just to survive because of what's happening elsewhere and it seems to me that some people refuse to acknowledge this.

Posted by: stockton red  | October 1, 2008 9:53 AM

Andy (Hants) wrote...

Not sure what we really expect here. I've grown up on a diet of us being pretty crap, achieving nothing, usually being in the second tier and being a middle ranking club a la Leicester, Wolves etc.

The last 10 years have been halcyon days in my life as a Boro fan and I am behind Gate in what he is trying to achieve. We complained about sterile, conservative football and demanded change. So along comes Gareth, a former Boro captain who obviously cares about the club and its fans, and sets about clearing out the ageing superstars and replacing them with a younger, pacier team.

Only problem is the purse strings are tighter now and other teams have long since over taken us in the rich league. Lets face facts; we are small players in the financial premier league. Most clubs have mega rich benefactors and fan bases that enable them to attract the very best players. Granted there are exceptions but not many.

The reality is we must cut our cloth accordingly. When were we ever top 6 material given the size of our club? Look at the clubs bigger or the same size as ours that now inhabit the lower reaches of the Championship and league one, and still some moan. For goodness sake; remember where we came from and celebrate where we are.

Of course I want more and think we should be doing better, and I believe this team will. Turnbull will come good given a chance but we all want instant genious. Did we really expect to beat Pompey, ManU and the bin dippers who have invested 70 million in the past 2 years? WBA granted, was a sickener but we created enough to know the wins will come. Some need to keep it real here.

TB; you're a funny guy-keep posting. Paul Bell; are you Spartacus?

Posted by: Andy (Hants)  | October 1, 2008 10:03 AM

dave wrote...

We are never going to progress if we always end up selling our best players. Selling young for £6m on paper seemed a good deal but then Hoyte is not as good and pointless making £4m profit if the money does not get reinvested in the team. So as a result our team is weaker.

It does not help when back in May the club talked up getting players in early to get them settled in and playing but then hardly pick them.

Looking back to the Man City game, how many of the players who started that day started against West Brom?

Has southgate got one hand tied behind his back as he has to balance Gibson and Lamb tapping him on the shoulder reminding him he has to keep cutting costs.

The midfield is very weak and relies too much on Downing. how much longer do we have to put up with a failed striker on right wing when he signed someone in the summer to play in that position. How much longer do we have to put up with shawky, Gary O'Neill and Digard who all are just sideways passers.

Why spend £13m on a striker and don't utilise him properly or provide him with the type of service he thrives on.

At the moment you can see that Southgate hasn't the experience and he is struggling to build a team that can play as a unit.

We need to spend some of that Young and Cttermole money in January on a decent attacking midfielder with experience at this level

If we carry on as we are, within 2 seasons we will be relegated. We have seen the same thing happen to the likes of Charlton, leicester and Forest

Posted by: dave  | October 1, 2008 10:03 AM

gt wrote...

I thought about making a comment, but then thought why bother. We'll huff and puff our way over the next 30 odd games again, only this time we may not be good enough.

I've had the chance to see a number of games in the lower leagues this season and I have to say the majority of teams were more focused and played in a more precise way, than we do. In fact I saw southampton lately, they have a much younger team than we have but their one touch football was outstanding and I see a brighter future for them. We still play too square.

Posted by: gt  | October 1, 2008 10:59 AM

David Morrison wrote...

tonyblack,

The reasons why your points arnt answered is becasue ordinary fans dont know the answers. We dont have access to trianing we dont have access to players and we dont have access to the manager.

I'd love to know all of these points however if all of them were to be addressed we would be challenging for the title. The reasons why we are like this is because MFC is an average football club in the Premier League.

We dont have the finances to buy Adebayor or Berbatov that would link the attack to midfield, we dont have the scouting system of arsenal to get a Fabregas or a Toure nor the resources to be able to pay the compensation.

What we are competing with is the Sunderlands, Newcastles, West Hams, Bolton, that middle clump who are after the same players. The only way to attract them is to play good football or to pay mega wages ( which we know aint gunna happen anymore).

We have a vision in place that is right for MFC a vision that will enable young players to come here and play football and progress this club forward.

Arsene Wenger said yesterday that the days of spending £30m on players at Arsenal are over because he dosnt think it works and that the way to do it is to nurture and teach the kids how to play. So you're telling me that following Arsenal is a bad thing then, following a tried and tested model, a model that has the club brimming with confidence in the system and confidence in its team and managers?

A long as people like you keep harping on and making decisions on day one this club will never succeed and will never have the chance to.

If you want answers get ureself to hurworth and ask some one rather than using negative tactics and stupid remarks.

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | October 1, 2008 11:09 AM

Lee wrote...

Vic:

"I still believe that Boro are two, maybe three, players away from being a very good side "

After the good end to last season, I also believed that (and still do). But I don't believe that Steve Gibson is prepared to spend money to get them any more. What a great opportunity to do something this season we had, but after sales and the two signings it worked out we had spent nothing.

I can't see how after selling lots of players and signing two ( one of which GS clearly does'nt rate ) we are supposed to kick on and climb the table.

I do support GS and think we potentialy have a very good side, but I just don't think we will get to see it's full potential if we are not prepared to at least spend a little. So as usual we are left with a team that are world beaters/pub side.

Posted by: Lee  | October 1, 2008 11:11 AM

MarkBirch wrote...

I think it's time for a little perspective. Look at NUFC & Spurs. I'm laughing teacakes at both those clubs. They have neither the stability nor the playing staff to really make an impact. Even if they have got money.

We have stability but that is because we don't overstretch our budget, even billionaire owners are facing problems in the credit crunch.

So we can't afford to buy the best players, the ones that make an instant impact e.g. Torres. Which means we take a bit of a gamble on most of our signings and we have to give them time to bed in. There aren't many players in the PL I would swap for Tuncay.

We have to give youth it's chance as well, or there's no point having an academy. I would love to know how much Wheater is worth though and we have more like him in the pipeline.

I don't think many managers in GS postion would do much better.

Continuity is paramount in football management if you ask me, so I'm sticking by GS.

Yes we have not had the best start but it was only a month ago we had manager of the month.

Let's take the rough with the smooth as usual and keep the faith.

Posted by: MarkBirch  | October 1, 2008 1:19 PM

Phil ex Warrenby wrote...

Tony Black, what a wierdo! You're never happy. Are you saying the keepers are no good? They have had man of the match reviews in almost all the games played so far.

In my opinion GS is doing a fine job and he has the side playing a far better brand of footer than any of the past half dozen bosses.sure he is still learning and will have us up there before too long. Going into a debate with you, on football, would be like a duell against an unarmed man.Go and support the Quakers.

Posted by: Phil ex Warrenby  | October 1, 2008 1:34 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Oh how many people in here forget.

Oh the groans from the Boro faithful when, the now condemned Schwarzy, when he was out injured. Now suddenly these keepers have become the very best in the business.

I for one would also have given Jones his chance as he fully deserves his shot, but I would have also bought and replaced Schwarzy just in case Jones did not deliver. For me this would have been the prudent way to go. But it's all about opinions at the end of the day.

I'm still at a loss to understand why we are going back to basics at this early stage in the season? It can only mean that they got things wrong in the off season.

Surely strikers should be getting sharper by the day, rather than needing more tarket prcatice now.

I'm still at a loss as to why we can't beat clubs like WBA?

I'm still at a loss to understand our league position when GS is great, the chairman is great, everyone and everything's great?

The truth is that this chairman is just happy to exist and runs HIS club as HE sees fit.

In every walk of life people get replaced and better people get put in. Why can't we do this with Gibson? Oh dear, I'm not allowed to say such sacrillage, am I???

A BETTER TEAM = A BETTER MANAGER + MORE MONEY.

I'm still at loss to know exactly at what point Southgate will resign, after all, for the Gentleman he is he will have to resign if he doesn't deliver.

" Judge me this year " he said...

" I am building a team for this year " he said...

So, no matter what you guys think about me, I for one WILL judge him at the end of the season as I just don't rate him. It isn't personal as I love the guy. He's a real class act. As a player and as a man. But I just don't rate him as a coach.

With all the sincerity in my heart I hope to be proved wrong as I have absolutely no joy in facing the fact that we may face yet another rebuilding phase and the possible anguish of the relegation battle.

But I just don't see it.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 1, 2008 3:30 PM

John Powls wrote...

David Morrison and stockton red (and others)

I think you are right on the mark here.

I read AV's blog and his perceptive piece in the Gazette and then followed up by reading Martin Samuel's illuminating article in The Times today which is, co-incidentally, complementary to what AV has said on Gate's first 100 in it's comments on Prem finance.

In between, I saw the Arsenal tonking of Porto following on the defeat by Hull. That reminded me of much of what Arsene Wenger has said about his model for The Gunners that David sets out above and the impacts that sometimes has on performance and results.

I also listened to what Stuart Pearce said about the conversations he had had with Wenger when he was Citeh boss and now with Eng-er-lund.

Maybe I'm thick because it hadn't struck me before or maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and making 2 and two into more than four - but I just wonder whether Wenger isn't a strong influence and a role model for Gate in his development as a manager.

And if that's the case, is what Gate is consciously trying for in the football side of the club a sort of Arsenal lite? (Gibbo has also said how good they are for him to do business with, though they have a different business model to MFC and more resources)

The more I thought about the idea the more parallels I thought of - positive and not so. And the difficulties of transcribing such an approach downscale and what some of the outcomes of that would be.

Think about it - am I right or shoot me down.

If I'm right, we all know that we still need our Fabregas lite - and that's one of the reasons we aren't nailing results.

Gate might also take a look at the Wenger approach to defending corners. Both posts manned, Adebayor (or similar) as a front blocker marking a 'zone' on the front post corner of the six yard box, the rest marking men and a sizeable gap in front of Almunia that allows him to come out unhindered and command if he needs to.

All I need for confirmation now is for Gate to not see a crucial incident from the dugout!

Or you could ask him who his key influences are when you next interview him, AV.

Posted by: John Powls  | October 1, 2008 3:47 PM

sarahsdad wrote...

Long time since i posted.

In line with most -not all! - I agree that GS has made progress over last 2 seasons. I am happy he now has a younger, fitter squad (and still , from reports, several exceptional juniors/reserves)capable of playing fast, attractive football. I believe nearly all of the first 15-16 are of Premiership quality , if not at International level
.
I am unhappy that as a team we do not seem to be learning/developing/improving .
My conclusion is that the coaching is still very much nor Premiership standard and to support this i would mention;-

1/ The lack of alternative tactics when plan A fails. As already stated by many, v. W.Brom we hardly used our wings , relying upon the big boot to Mido's head. This continued for 90 minutes , substitions were simple like for like , although admittedly with fresh legs and higher work-rate from Digard.

After 70 or so minutes we were in desperate need of a change in tactics (as with Cardiff and others) nothing came. The argument that we made and missed a lot of chances should not take away from the reality -this was a very poor WBA team , who will struggle to survive and did (neede to do ! ) nothing.

2/ The total absence of any fresh ideas. I cannot recall seeing (applies to many previous seasons) a single clever-novel-differant move that may have been developed and practised on the training pitch e.g something a little differant from free-kicks. What do we do in training apart from try to avoid injury ?

3/ Slow to pick-up and solve obvious problems. It seems what the supporters see as problems e.g 11 men back for corners (now thankfully only 9-10) takes coaches months to see. Why do we put defenders immediately in front of our goalkeeper at corners/free-kicks ? why do we never have a man coming in late beyond the far-post when attacking at corners. free-kicks? Do these coaches never watch replays of games or use the various match analysis tools?

4/A lack of understanding between players. Pass goes one-way , the intended receiver goes the other. Players line up for a free-kick in front of opponents goal , ball goes way over the back. can they not discuss where they are going to put it /what plan , as the Rugby Union men do ?

If GS is to grow and MFC to survive in the premiership he would , in my opinion , be well advised to look to the quality of his coaches.

Posted by: sarahsdad  | October 1, 2008 3:49 PM

David Morrison wrote...

tony black

What is it that you have seen to make such a judgement about Southgate's coaching credentials?

Most bloggers on here are of the mind that previous seasons his hands have been tied and behind the scenes influences affected the way he wanted to play.

We are 6 games in and I'm sure Southgate himself will admit to maybe making a few mistakes, but you know what, so what if he does. It's part of learning. Did you know from day one exactly what you needed to do in your job? Were you so perfect that you didnt need any training or asked the odd colleague for help?

It's life, it's management and it's football. Southgate is held in high regard by Wenger and that is good enough for me. He is trying to build a side that can not only exist but compete and to do that takes time, time which I am, as well as others are, prepared to give him.

You want Gibbo out? I dare you to stand up at the Chelsea game and start shouting for his head. You want more money? Then go find an investor that will invest with no redevelopment area around the stadium, no Oxford Street to attract the big names and no possible way ever of making this club profitable. You want a new manager? Who? name me one man that could do a better job that would seriously come here.

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | October 1, 2008 4:14 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Lets take a positive approach to things.

The essence of reviewing anything is to look at things you do well and continue going those things, maybe quantify them and reinforce their repetition.

The other side is to look at the things you do less well and find ways to overcome the blocks to progress.

It is the latter part that is causing the problems and the debate. Unless we improve things we are doing less well we will go backwards because everyone else is working at those things as well.

Nothing is cast in stone, you can be pleased at the progress but be worried on the tangible elements of the product, eg scores on the doors, points, league position.

We all want the same thing for the Boro, a well run club doing the best it can given its resources. To think the club is going backwards is as bad as thinking all is smelling of roses. Three points at Wigan would be well received.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 1, 2008 4:24 PM

Clarke (Canada) wrote...

What I am seeing on the pitch is a team ready to burst... you can't create this many chances and not score all season.

Once game were gonna put 4 or 5 in and the lads will garner up some much needed confidence.

Losing games that you should have won is de-moralizing. I think the Liverpool loss would have crushed any teams confindence?

C'mon Boro

Posted by: Clarke (Canada)  | October 1, 2008 5:32 PM

jc wrote...

TB - your schizophrenic posts really make me chuckle - SOUTHGATE OUT / I love the guy!

So Gibson "runs HIS club as HE sees fit."? Well, it is his club. He owns it. Would you be happy if I told you to hand over your car because I don't like the way you drive it?

"I'm still at a loss as to why we can't beat clubs like WBA?" - let me answer that one for you, as it's a recurring theme in your posts - chance. Yes: probability, stochastic process, the roll of a die. It plays a far greater role in the outcome of games than most fans would care to admit.

Had Alves' shot been 6 inches closer, that game would have had a different outcome. We would have got a point or 3 from Liverpool had that deflection been slighter, or greater, or higher. And these chance events happen all over the pitch many many times in a game.

The reason fans don't like admitting it is that it cheapens their experience - it's much more fun to assume that there's a good reason for everything that happens in a game, and then analyse it to death. But most do understand that chance has a large part to play, especially since it is often one goal, and often one refereeing decision, which wins it.

You don't appear to, though. You seem to think that if we don't always beat the Stokes, Wigans and West Broms there must be something deeply wrong with the team or coaches.

With stochastic processes, you need to gather a large set of data to extract any meaningful analysis. I think we've seen enough of Middlesbrough under Southgate to know what the strengths and weaknesses of the team and style of play are - pacy, good on the break, often solid in defense - mentally fragile under pressure, prone to forget defense when pushing for a winner / equaliser, prone to miss chances. All the things AV and many others point out regularly.

However, this is a transitional period that we are just starting to evolve from, and we still don't have the data required to say for certain what the trend is in solving some of the historical problems. We can see hints, but we're going to have to see how it pans out before we'll know with any certainty.

Thats part of the fun of supporting a club like Boro! That, and reading your posts.

Posted by: jc  | October 1, 2008 6:21 PM

deka wrote...

Totally agree with Dave's comments. Midfield is a major worry, the present crop are too slow and too static and since Rocky's departure we have no one who can pick a pass or thread a ball through the opposition defence.

Why not give the likes of Walker and Emnes a go? If they are good enough they are old enough, just look at the arsenal kids. If we think we have a good crop give them a chance. At least put them on as sub.

From the next two games we must get some return. Six defeats off the spin really would be catastrophic. As for Downing's comments about finishing in the top 7, I think he must be angling for a move to Man City or Villa.

Posted by: deka  | October 1, 2008 8:01 PM

beamishBoro wrote...

I am getting fed up with MFC, full of false promises and always selling their best players. I rarely go to games anymore and it has got so bad that i am considering supporting my local team sunderland. We need a new manager and if Gibson is skint then sell up to a bilionaire before we end up relegated.

Posted by: beamishBoro  | October 1, 2008 8:31 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Boro finishing top 7, says Stewy .
Yes we are dominating for periods in games but we fail to score and the table never lies.
Actions speak louder than words and we need to see some goals.
Alves and Mido should produce for us , they look good , even against a man of the match keeper.
I would like to see Emnes on the pitch please-
Southgate is a nice guy but nice guys finish last.
It would be nice if we could punch above our weight and if the players show the fighting spirit they did after WBA scored then we have a chance .

How come we only got fired up after they scored.
Should Southgate let the opposition pop one in from kick off if he cant find another way to wake our team up.

Typical BORO

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | October 1, 2008 9:33 PM

Neil M wrote...

I think one of the problems is that some people are judging GS/Boro not against reality or any concrete criteria but against their own expectations.

The reality is that Boro are a mid-table side. The last three finishes (and history as a whole) show that and we haven't made any major changes to suggest that we can dramatically improve on that. So why do the likes of tony black this we SHOULD be up there?

When GS sat down with his bosses this year what do his critics think he was set as a goal? Champions League? UEFA Cup? The FA Cup? Satisfy the most demanding fans expectations or your out?

Of course not. He will have been told his primary objective was survival. His secondary objective was probably to keep the team progressing, keep the attacking style going and make sure the paying punters get plenty of action for their money. Anything else, cup runs or top half or whatever, is a bonus.

The problem that the likes of tony black have is that they don't measre GS like that. They measure him against their own inflated expectations and against other teams (which they change every year depending on who is this year's surprise package) and they get angry and condemn him for not delivering THEIR dreams.

These people are always quoting what players or GS or Lambie say in the Gazette as if it is a legally binding contract. They see these things as promises. Have they never heard of spin? I bet they buy loads of tat because they believed the adverts.

Posted by: Neil M  | October 1, 2008 11:02 PM

Allycat wrote...

Beamishboro:

Please leave now! Go and support Sunderland or Chelsea or Man City or whoever takes your fancy this particular week. You have absolutely no idea of what being a football fan is, as your comments clearly show.

Supporting Boro through thick and thin is what it is all about (and so you would be entitled to whinge and moan with the rest of us). You never, ever under any circumstances declare you may change your mind about your allegiance.

You have shown yourself up to be the epitomy of the very worst thing about modern football, the glory seeking, prawn sandwich munching know-nothing on the search for the latest bandwagon to hitch your desperate star to.

And do you want to tell us which particular billionairre is going to invest in a midtable, possibly pushing for Europe team from one of the poorer areas of the country and with little global appeal? Where will they make their money from? The at best 36,000 crowds with 50,000 shirt sales over 2-3 years or so? Extra income is generated through merchandising around the world. Boro is not a merchandisers dream!

I work in finance and although i am not an expert, perhaps having a local chairman that loves the club and has put a lot of his own cash into it is a safer bet than an asset stripping foreign owner that does not care about the club or the local area.

I assume you want Boro to emulate Liverpool and Man Utd? On the field yes that would be great, but they are two clubs that have a history and global cachet behind them. Off the field though, they are two clubs that have been bought by borrowing money from US hedge funds - pretty dodgy circumstances to find yourself in whilst US Banks are currently failing.

Basically BeamishBoro, you know nowt and I for one hope that you will soon be gracing the Mackems websites with your distinguished views. Hang on though, look where Hull are, they are doing fairly well, maybe you should think about supporting them. (sorry for the length, but this has been a difficult post to write without swearing.)

Posted by: Allycat  | October 1, 2008 11:13 PM

BLT wrote...

What I like about 'Slim' is the way he just makes things up to descredit people who disagree with his obvious agenda.

Take this:

"How many people in here forget. Oh the groans from the Boro faithful when, the now condemned Schwarzy, when he was out injured. Now suddenly these keepers have become the very best in the business."

Best in the business? I will personally give a tenner to the charity of his choice if he can find anyone on this blog, any other board or even members of the Jones or Turnbull households who have said anything remotely like that.

I think when he does that it is to persuade himself that anyone who doesnt follow his own logic is a wild-eyed religious zealot idiot incapable of criticism and who will swallow everything the Boro say.

I think it is him who is the wild-eyed one. Emotionally volatile. After a defeat you can hear his teeth grinding and feel the steam come out of his ears as he types in a rage. I think he takes it as a deep personal insult by Southgate against his honour.

The thing is most people may agree with some of his points. It is just that he comes across as the nutter on the bus.

Posted by: BLT  | October 1, 2008 11:26 PM

bob wrote...

Hmmm, I'm thinking, against my better judgement I should add, of rising to Tony Black's challenge...

"Not one of can or does ever answer any of my points" (SIC)..."So why don't we debate?"

Oh what the hell, what have I got to lose. Let's see, let's take this one...

"Only a mad man punts his entire reputation on two keepers that no one rates coming out and stating that he didn't buy because there were none better on offer. What exactly does this say about peoples judgement at the club?"

Firstly, is SG punting his entire reputation? Well, let's assume for a moment we go down and he loses his job...entire reputation gone, right? Or maybe not.

The game isn't blessed with endless brilliant managers. Might not another aspiring club, for example a Crystal Palace look at SG's three years and see plenty of positives to set alongside the negative of relegation as a result of goalkeeping errors. His re-building of the team, changing a 30 something team into a 20 somthing team, profits in the transfer market, three seasons in the PL, a couple of half decent cup runs, football that is often described as attractive.

And let's face it, was it only the goalkeepers who contributed to the drop, maybe GS just got unlucky this time. I could imagine a Crystal Palace Director thinking along these lines and deciding he/she would like a bit of that. Hell, he's even got history at the club, the fans'll love me! Lo and behold, GS has a clean slate and he's off and running again.

Secondly, is it true to say that no-one rates these two keepers. Well, erm, no. I, for example, rate them quite highly. OK, I admit that doesn't add up to much, what do I know. But then it's also true to say that a number of people outside the club, but inside football rate these two keepers as well. Jones after all is an international, even if it is only for Australia (he can hardly be blamed for that, he had little control over the matter). And I think I'm right in saying Turnbull has represented England at youth level, and I've certainly heard him described by people within the game (again outside of the club) as "highly rated". So technically it is clear that Tony's statement "no-one rates" is emphatically wrong on this occasion...sorry.

So..."what exactly does this say about peoples judgement at the club?"...well, I'd say that it says that their judgement differs from Tony's...and I for one am hugely grateful for this!

There, do I feel better now?...now don't even get me started on Beamish Bob!!

Posted by: bob  | October 2, 2008 4:43 AM

tonyblack wrote...

Hi Bob,

Firstly, I'm not trying to bait anyone and although you make think I'm mad I don't do it in an offensive way. So we can all still be friends!

Secondly, you shouldn't take things literally.

My point about the keepers is that in my opinion it shows a wild lack of judgement in not having replaced the number one and to go and try your luck on what were your second and third choice, who by the way, never got a look in even when Schwarzy was way out of form last season is a big gamble.

So although my choice of words may have not quite been right, I do think that the point is valid and for me demonstrates another rookie type / lack of judgement mistake.

I'm quite happy to admit that mine may not be the majority view.

If these keepers don't perform and are the majour reason for whatever trouble we get in, then I do think that GS has staked his entire reputation on them because it shows such a big lack of judgement. So I won't go back on what I said.

At the end of the day what you highlight, and what others agree with, for me is just smoke and mirrors. I can agree with much of the things that have been done by GS and can agree that they are good like you say. But to me, these are all by the by if you can't manage, which is at the end of the day the number 1 job.

For me it's all about results. What's the point doing all these great things that you have highlighted if we finish the season in or around the relegation zone?

I for one would rather have had less of what you have highlited and would prefer to see us higher in the league.

I just don't rate the guy - sorry. I don't think he knows what he's doing on the training ground, with his tactics, with his judgement, or his ability to motivate players or change things round when things are going wrong.

But like I said, I may be mad but I'm actually a very nice mad guy who really isn't here to wind people up and I will never be offensive, as others quite clearly are with me all the time.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 2, 2008 8:24 AM

bob wrote...

TB,

That's the good thing about debate, it soon becomes to and fro, so thank you for responding.

I'll take a teeny weeny issue with your statement that "I don't do it in an offensive way". Suggesting that "only a madman would..." is inferring that GS is a madman, which is just a little offensive. I'm sure he won't lose too much sleep about it though.

Of course, I'm not asking you to go back on what you said. On the goalkeeper situation, it's clearly a gamble, and naturally the insurance policy you suggest was an alternative option. But a career defining ("entire reputation") gamble...I suspect not.

If it comes off and one of the two does a 'Ben Foster' or the two kids from Man City (Hart & Schmeichel?) then he's a managerial genius. Long shot yes. My point refers to the worst case scenario - it's a complete and utter disaster and they both perform like lemons, we go down and he loses his job.

He's young enough and has enough brownie points behind him to be given another chance. There's probably 20 or more aspiring clubs who could be the next big thing who would be happy to give him another chance. Even Robson was given other chances, several times.

If he's on his second chance, or his third chance then the scale of the gamble becomes bigger, but right now, from a reputation perspective, he has very little to lose. Besides which, who's to say the insurance policy couldn't have a mare!

Lack of judgement? Inexperience? Well last year a very experienced manager called Erikson (one of your favourites I seem to recall) made a similar judgement and decided to run with two untried kids. So if GS is guilty of showing lack of judgement at least he is emulating those of greater experience. Mind you, Erikson's lot won nowt and he lost his job! It's a risk, but not so big I think.

Still, nice to hear you are a nice man, and inoffensive too. I'll try not to take things so literally in future!

I think we should sign off now and let someone else have a turn.

Forza Italia!

Posted by: bob  | October 2, 2008 12:26 PM

Peter Thompson wrote...

Interesting read from Sarahsdad, and I agree with his points.

First of all lets take a positive perspective, GS, CC, Steve Agnew and co are all now fully qualified or will be UEFA A-Class coaches. Anybody who is involved in coaching will know these qualifications are not the easiest to obtain and many an ex pro footballer has failed to made the grade in the past (I could name a few but will be probably be found to be libel!!). They are not attendance only courses but a lot of hard work has to be put into achieving this level.

This has got to be good for the Boro in the long term, but in reality, we are not going to see all the fruition this season and mistakes will be made; however, once certain elements of the coaching 'click-in' then progress should be made and fans should be able to see the differences, which I suggest we are in some areas.

So patience is the key, but are the fans going to be patient? Because as said by many, 100 games is long enough. In my opinion, the Boro this season have to be judged over the first 15 games (as a squad) and also judged when GS has fielded his strongest teams or near to full strength - in his opinion- at least 6 games. As we know Steve Gibson will give GS time and this is crucial to future success.

Now, from a negative side, with us being aflush with these coaches, I am bemused having witnessed it most prominately at Portsmouth as to why we cannot react quickly and swiftly when the opposition change tactics. Harry Rednapp's changes that day totally outfoxed GS and unfortunately we had no answers in reply.

This does give me concern and could imply that GS makes his tactical decisions to keep players happy (which is a dangerous precedence to set), square pegs in round holes as described by many, again I cannot understand why or is it he just does not see the 'picture' which I do find hard to believe because he has had to demonstrate this so many times and at a competent level on his courses.

Alarmingly, this trend is now part of our season so far and I wish someone would give me an answer as to why tactically we seem to have no answers when the games are turning against us.

Don't know whether AV has access to witness a weeks Boro training, then relate it to a match - it would be a fascinating insight and would probably dispense a lot of myths.

Posted by: Peter Thompson  | October 2, 2008 1:47 PM

David Morrison2 wrote...

This is my first posting although Ive been lurking for yonks. I feel I have to comment as someone else is using my name - and I know loads of people in the Boro although I now live in Gidgegannup Western Australia. Fortunately I have the same sentiments as my namesake (for the most part).

One of the things that strkes me about GS is that he is exceptionally articulate and he has in a short time transformed the team and seemingly the culture. Personally I thnk we are lucky to have him. Gibbo is no mug and he has seen something in him that is in my view worth taking a punt on.

We now play attractive football and the players run themselves into the ground for him. There ave been no rumours of him wanting to move on and courting clubs that are bigger than us. He is one of us. Its so obvious. I want to stick with him through thick and thin - he will get it right because he is willing to learn and he is smart and the best predictor of job success is smartness.

I was shocked, nevertheless, by Luke Young's departure and bade a fond farewell to Schwarzer. I think Turnbull has been great and the right choice of the two goalies. I also agree that the midfield is a worry. I think O'Neil has been really good this season and I like Digard.

What we lack is a guy who can see things the others can't. The reverse pass the unexpected dummy etc etc. Let's face it these blokes are hard to find and they cost lots. Rocky was patchy and at times a liability. Juninho was the best player I have ever seen in a Boro shirt and I have been an avid fan for 45 years. Souness comes close in terms of his influence and funnily enough I thought Bobby Murdoch and Robbo were sublime (John Hickton and Dickie Rooks were my boyhood heros however). Julio's form seems to go up an down and he possibly needs to work to his pace (sorry Julio)

In short we have to get real - we are a small club in Europe. We have limited resources and we have done brilliantly in the last 15 years. This is not to say we shouldnt aim higher nor should we shirk when criticism is due.

The crowd are the 12th man - but for which side? We can be miserable so and sos at times. My bugbear is that we get on the backs of the players and the manager too soon when its not warranted. These are young lads trying their best. Nobody deliberately gives a bad pass or scuffs a shot.

At present at least everyone seems to want to play for us (Mido blows hot and cold admittedly) - did Rava, Boksic, Emerson, Yakubu really give a toss? I cant remember us having a better squad all round. Personally I am optimistic but prepare for the worst (untyical boro), which I think is better than being pessimistic while expecting the best (typical boro).

Terry Venables said a very insightful thing on Setanta the other day - "Sometimes you can be so scared of dying you don't enjoy living". Let's give it a right good go and bugger the short term consequences - at least we are not Newcastle or Spurs (or Leeds for that matter).

So, lets get behind the lads and let them know we are 100% on their side as long as they give 100%. Easy for me to say living so far away eh? Well, I came back for all three lost cup finals in the 90's - you all have to thank me for not coming to the one we won - if I'd come we'd have lost - and I only gave up my season ticket in 2000 (I ve been in oz 24 yrs) cos I got married -

Known as the GidgeGadgie from now on

**AV writes: Good first post GidgeGadgie. Welcome aboard.

Posted by: David Morrison2  | October 2, 2008 2:14 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Hi Bob,

I withdraw the words " mad man " and accept that they may be taken offensively.

Personally, given Mr Erickson's prior record in management I would have backed his judgement over his choice of keepers were I a Man City fan. It was a joke that he was sacked as I think he did a very good job in his short time scale. I don't back GS because I personally don't think he's any good.

Let's just hope that the next time we meet in here we can rave about the great win against the Wigan boys so that we can take 3 points we desperately need and that confidence all the way into the Chelsea game and beyond.

My biggest problem in here is the abuse I get at the slightest suggestion that Gibson's time is up. For me it seems that he's just content to exist in this league. For some that may be enough but for me it isn't. It isn't personal as even I would defend the guy all the way for what he's done.

But at the end of the day I'd rather have Hughes and over 450 Billion pounds worth of investment with the dream of one day winning the Champions league, rather than Gibson and GS with whom we can dream of winning precious nothing again.

I think that this is a fair and valid point of view that doesn't warrant the all too familiar torrent of abuse that comes my way every time I raise it.

As this is a blog, how comes we never get the chance to debate this issue Vic ? Yes, you've talked about it before but never in such a direct way.

How about...

" Should this be the end of the Gibson era ? "

I doubt that the powers that be would allow such heracy to occur s I won't hold my breath.

TB

**AV writes: You get the chance to shout 'Gibson out' on here and you and others have revisited the theme on many occasions without any censorship or attempt to stifle debate.

I have not advanced the subject for the simple reason that I don't agree with it. As repeatedly stated on here (and voluntarily, not from any political pressure from any source) my position is that big "investors" want big returns and that can only come, directly or indirectly, through shafting the fans and that is a bad thing. Trawl through the archives, my colours have been nailed to the mast on many occasions.

Football is being systematically ravaged by profiteers who have no feel for the game, its history or culture and see only an opportunity to develop exciting new revenue streams and the bigger more globalised the investor the greater the danger of the heart of a club being ripped out and used as collateral in deals aimed at commercial expansion as a form of showbiz in Asia, Africa and America.

I think it is a short term boom that is unsustainable and will leave clubs with massive debts and estranged from their fanbase and I want Boro to have no part in that.

I want Boro to have an undilutable Teesside accent in the boardroom. I want it to compete but only within the framework of a sustainable model that does not threaten to sell its soul nor make it vulnerable to any sudden seismic shifts in financial fashion. I want the club future-proofed, economically sound and run from Teesside, ideally with the main new investors being the fans in some way.

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 2, 2008 2:16 PM

Matt wrote...

In the age of double figure point deductions for clubs going into administration, I think a lot of Boro fans should recognise exactly what the Chairman is trying to achieve with his re modelled business plan.

For the first time in many years the club are attempting to "live within their means". In previous seasons, the club has needed a cheque of over 10 Million pounds per year from the Chairman's personal wealth, to pay for the superstar player's transfer fees & wages, as demanded by Southgate's two predecessors.

As the "credit crunch" progresses here & abroad, it is prudent for the people who run the club to strive for an environment where investment outside of the annually generated profit is not needed.

As has been alluded to by other posters, I suspect that the managers hands are tied somewhat by purse strings heavily controlled from the boardroom. If he was to suggest buying a 30-odd year old Gascoigne or Boksic nowadays, I suspect he may be told where to go rather sharply!!

The expectations of some of the posters on here do sometimes leave me aghast. How I winced, when after two games this season, people were predicting top six finishes. Yes, that would be the same top six finish being chased by Man City & their £32m pound forward. The same places Martin O Neill is looking towards, having spent over £30m this summer, as well as turning down a bid in excess of 15 Million for a player who cost the club peanuts & obviously wanted to leave. A reality check may be well advised for some who offer their thoughts on these pages.

Did any of us honestly expect a team with an average age in the early twenties to be the model of consistency?

I'm sure the plan formed by the club was for a younger, talented, hungry squad to be built then given time to develop into a successful team. We laughed at the barcodes up the road, when they booed Mr Allardyce for not turning their average team into world beaters within four months. Let us all allow this team to play together until xmas & hopefully improve while gaining results.

If, as some of us suspect, we need to add an extra midfielder (& possibly a striker) to the squad in the transfer window, then so be it. I have faith that the club will do that, if required.

Above all, I refuse to believe it is possible for a team to have a second game in any one season where they have 27 attempts at goal but draw a blank !!

Posted by: Matt  | October 2, 2008 2:19 PM

jiffy wrote...

To change the subject and risk returning to an old theme:

AV its time you revisited the finances of football in the light of the current financial situation - there seems to be very little being said in the media about the way many of our top clubs have placed themselves in jeopardy with their foreign ownership. Just how close are ManU and Liverpool to the brink of catastrophe given their levels of debt in the current climate?

Posted by: jiffy  | October 2, 2008 2:32 PM

Phil ex Warrenby wrote...

Bob you are too polite, TB is a fool and his ravings bore the crap out of all of us. He wouldn't know the difference between a corner flag and a corner shop

ps I'm a nice guy too

**AV writes: NIce guys as you all are, I think it is time to ease up on the personal stuff. Let's not spoil an interesting debate by playing the man instead of the ball.

Posted by: Phil ex Warrenby  | October 2, 2008 2:43 PM

David Morrison wrote...

GIBSON OUT?
MFC is Steve Gibson. It is the epitome of the man and the legend that is. Without Gibbo MFC wouldnt be here, I strongly beleive that. He single handedly changed the face of the club and the expectations of those fans that dared to dream.

First new stadium to be built in something like 20 years, consecutive premier league seasons, European football, cup win, players like Juninho, Emerson, Ravanelli, Merson dazzling with skill and confidence.

Whilest I am jealous of the riches of Man City etc I know it wont last, I know the bubble will burst and i know when it does MFC will be standing bigger and prouder than ever.

All you idiots who feel he should go should hang ure heads in shame and think long and hard about the remarks you are making.

it is border line pyschotic to imagine MFC without STEVE GIBSON.....

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!

OH THERE ARE 2 OF ME NOW ASWELL, WAHEY..............

Posted by: David Morrison  | October 2, 2008 3:49 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Matt

It is highly unlkely to miss 27 chances and draw a blank again. To miss gilt edged chances and then implode is achievable and just to prove it is no fluke we can do it at will.

The debate is largely about what to do to get points on the board without going back to dreadful football - and we havent got the players to do dogged and dull. Looking at who we let go during the summer is irrelevant because we were giving goals and points away when they were here.

Gate will be judged on the basis that he will have turned it round or not. Some people think he doesnt have the skills, others think it is a matter of time. All of us want him to do it.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 2, 2008 4:34 PM

Allycat wrote...

Jiffy, you hit on something i said in my lengthy rant above - Liverpool and Man Utd were both bought through money borrowed from hedge funds.

This is very dodgy ground to be on, as more than any other clubs, Man Utd and Liverpool have to consistently qualify for champions league group stages. This will keep their Asian exposure high and ensure big revenues from prize money and merchandising.

If they do not qualify for group stages for say 3 seasons, the profits are no longer there and perhaps the owners don't like paying back the hedge fund loans from their own pockets and so assets will be sold. Therefore making CL qualification harder, so more assets are sold and so the club struggles further. Therefore the owners will have much reduced income, don't fancy paying the money back from their own pocket and so put the club into administration.

The question is for all those people that have been slagging Gibson and calling for mystical foreign investors that are apparently straining at the leash to buy Boro, do you want the existence of your club to be decided by American gamblers out for pure profit or by a local guy who helped save the club from extinction by ploughing much of his own cash into it and bringing, in relative terms, success to the club.

Posted by: Allycat  | October 2, 2008 6:12 PM

tonyblack wrote...

It is clear that the majority view in here is against me, but I note that it isn't unanimous.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say. So, so far my view holds more water than the majority view as the league table doesn't lie, as it didn't lie last year.

Time will tell and I agree that it's early days, but no one can deny that with so few games gone we are allready talking about a must win game against Wigan which isn't very good, is it ?

Then we have some very, very tough games and if we lose the next three we are in deep touble.

Vic, I fully understand your point of view and where you coming from as you are deep rooted fan, although I do take issue with the fact that you only put up topics that you agree with as I don't think this is fair.

Given the choice of a more rich Gibson or a foreign investor I'd take the more rich Gibson every day of the week for all the reasons that you state. But as he's not on the cards we will just float about and simply exist because Gibson has done all he can and can't do anymore.

So although I again say that I fully understand where you're coming from, for me personally it's not enough and I would like to go to another Eindhoven before I die as it was simply amazing.

My point of view is simply that with the likes of GS and the limited money that Gibson provides that we will probably not seen another Eindhoven for some time.

But like I've said before, unlike most of the people in here, I could quite easily be wrong and I absolutely look forward to being proved wrong at the end of the season.

This doesn't make me Schitzo, a fool and idiot or a raving lunatic. It just makes me part of the minority view, that's all.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 2, 2008 7:51 PM

chuck wrote...

we just need to keep the ball.we 're far too wastefull wth possesion.we invite pressure late on every week

Posted by: chuck  | October 2, 2008 9:45 PM

Richard wrote...

Some of the last few posts on here are drifting into favourite territory and there are rich discussion pickings on the matter of "club or money" - or however way you wish to view it.

So, Andy (The Hague) wherever you are these days - tighten your seat belt chum! It’s time for a bit of a rant! It’s been a while!

If you're interested and have the patience, I'd like to refer you to the last blog I posted on Boro Banter.

http://borobanter.gazettelive.co.uk/2008/09/boro-in-crisis-no-way-things-c.html

Yes, it majored on the barcodes - but only as an exemplar of the destructive forces at play in Premier League Football and, I believe, serves as a "heads-up" to those (and there are tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands) of us who have a personal dilemma about the future of football in this country.

AV has touched on it in his post-script to that very nice man, Tony Black.

Alleycat has more than hinted at it and I can see parallel influences between what caused the current global economic collapse and what's happening in our domestic football.

Because the people who have the most to gain are the people driving the change!

And the REALLY annoying thing is that many, if not all of them, have come in from outside of the game to exploit it. And many of them have come in from outside of the country to exploit it! (I’m not focusing on the legions of foreign players, by the way – although if you add them back into the equation, it does make you wonder if the only British bit left might be location!)

They aren’t interested in the consequences for communities or for individuals, for heritage or for tradition - or even for nationality or even stability. Their interest is in the growth of their own personal wealth, power and ambition. Football, English Football, is their latest vehicle to take them global - to milk the millions, no, the billions, of people around the world who will, collectively, put their hands into their respective pockets and pay the TV networks or the merchandising outlets for a distant dream. The people driving and using the Premier League aren’t concerned that there are others who object to “their” football heritage being pimped around the globe.

Their drive is wealth, influence and power. And absolutely NO regard is paid to the disadvantages, inconvenience, rising costs or social exclusions of those in the game’s homeland.

I can’t begin to imagine how ordinary Iraqi’s feel!!!

I have misgivings about the extent to which the globalisation of the Premier League is in “the common good”. Hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country also have misgivings. People abroad can also see what's happening and have misgivings, Platini and Blatter have misgivings. And I'm sure there are a great number of people in positions of authority in smaller or minor clubs who are sitting on their hands because although they recognise the dangers, at present, they're adopting an "I'm alright Jack" mentality. However, It seems to me that some football club owners and the people they employ are like those money-incentivised middle level executives and managers in the now-failed banks who encouraged the “small” people to invest in the future to a point where the house of cards was bound to collapse - as AV says - "unsustainable". But then, like Mike Ashley, walk away and leave a bloody mess behind them.

These guys are playing with a British social institution and turning it into an over-the-top vulgar American-style “esportainment” vehicle (sorry, “product”).

I don't have a problem with wealth-creation, per se - provided the bulk of it is put back into society. But I DO have a problem with too much power in the "wrong" hands, the exploitation of communities, heritage and unregulated pursuit of unsustainable EXCESS built on sentiment of greed and a mortgaged future. (In ANY walk of life – not just football!)

That's what got us into the current economic predicament!

I don’t believe it will happen to Boro. But because Boro doesn't exist in isolation. We depend on others to provide the competition and there are those within the system in which Boro and others are operating who ARE pursuing excess. So it's possible that, despite Steve Gibson's relative prudence, like Northern Rock, HBOS and Bradford & Bingley, Boro could get sucked in by undercurrents generated by a tsunami of excess should they try to hard to cling to the tails of the likes of Manchelarsepool. But regrettably, that's who we have to play! And those four will be joined by further deep pocket diggers before reconstruction of the Premier League is over – one way or another.

For all the money that's swimming around in the game these days, are we really any better off in terms of the fare that football serves us up by comparison with the days when the likes of Denis Law and John Charles were changing clubs for £100K - world record fees in their day? Now, footballers not worthy of lacing their boots, are paid that in less than a month and a few in less than a week!! That also is excess!

I wish they'd all just go away and leave the next tier down to get back to playing football on a more level playing field.

Fingers crossed - maybe they will!

Meanwhile, football supporters up and down the country are considering whether they like it or not. I’ve spoken in recent times to a number of people who are simply fed up with the way the game has moved. Reasons given for non-renewal of season tickets or complete non-attendance have been (in no particular order):

• Ridiculous and obscene amounts of money being paid to and between clubs for footballers.

• TV networks dictating match days and times to satisfy foreign viewing schedules.

• Reduced opportunity for any sporting glory for teams outside of the highly-financed top tier and therefore,

• The league and cup competitions being less of a competitive spectacle than they have been historically. (With a few exceptions, the same teams tend to win things or come close, time and time again.)
• The “lesser” competitions being treated disdainfully and disrespectfully by the top clubs by either non-participation or fielding second-string teams from highly-resourced squads (and still able to make better progress than full-strength lesser teams in the same league!).

• Cost of match tickets – major family expense to follow live football

• Match entertainment no better than it was many years ago despite huge influx of money. Sure it’s faster and possibly more skillful, but is no more of a competitive spectacle than it ever was – despite the TV marketing hype, which is almost entirely centred on the big four globally-marketable clubs anyway!

• General feeling of it’s not as good value for money as it was. (I’ve had comments like, “It’s become boring!”)

• Profiteering throughout the game - £1.60 for a cup of coffee you’d make at home for less than 5p!

• A sense of helplessness with the have/ have-not divide. “What’s the point turning up. Boro are never going to win anything when to do so you have to spend ludicrous amounts of money to get players good enough to compete with them! It hurts too much!”

• Increasingly being tailored to suit the “business economy”. The ordinary punter is being priced out. Corporate hospitality and advertising is probably the most lucrative source of income for clubs.

• Crowds seen to be being used as props by the TV networks. Only necessary to create noise and give sense of popular participation. If crowds dwindled far enough, it’s been suggested that canned crowds would be substituted – if they haven’t been already on some occasions or some technical enhancement to falsely create a sense of more excitement than there actually is/ was. The lack of atmosphere at some of our grounds sometimes these days is almost embarrassing!

The list is not exhaustive, but you have to wonder if another “product” had as many flaws in it, would you buy it? Of course, not all of the above matter to everyone to the same extent and some may not matter at all. And that’s what keeps those who happen along, happening along. But evidence supports the contention that domestic consumers are becoming more critical.

Right! That’s it! Even I’ve had enough! (Writing that is. I’ll still be at the Chelsea match, hoping against all the odds that Boro will provide a little miracle on the day!)

Posted by: Richard  | October 2, 2008 11:16 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

TB - minority views are still valid views. They may be right or they may be wrong, but this Blog is not a one-party state. Minorities are tolerated and sometimes they grow and become the majority. However arguing Steve Gibson should go (with which, for the record, I do not agree) is as likely to be as popular as a Conservative Party candidate in Port Clarence.

SG is not God, though. He probably doesn't expect to be above criticism, but he has done so much good for the club, and acquired such a Mount Everest of brownie points that he would have to embark on a long series of follies and massive own goals before a majority of voices would be raised against him.

As to your views on Gareth Southgate, again you are in a minority. I think most of us were surprised and, if we were honest, a little disappointed when he got the job. Yet another rookie manager when it would have been great to have an experienced head to deal with the dressing room, and to make tactical changes when needed to change the course of a game!

But actually he seems to show signs he might have it in him. He is articulate, more often sees the same game we saw than his predecessor (who sometimes must have been on another planet), he seems a likeable guy. I do not think he "has to go" at this stage and I hope he can turn it around. There are green shoots poking through: we just have to hope the frosts in the next couple of months don't kill them off.

I agree starting the season without an experienced goalie was a gamble, so we don't differ on everything. It is a gamble I would not have taken, bearing in mind that keepers seem to be both the cheapest of the players in the team and yet the most important. But it is possible Turnbull might prove good enough and I don't write him off at this stage. Anyway I would PREFER to have players coming through the ranks, IF they are good enough.

So we want different opinions, so long as they are not abusively expressed. (I suppose a heap of abuse will now come my way....).

To deal with recent comments from contributors about billionaire investors - they have their pros and cons.

It would be great to have enough money available to be able to afford a Steve Gerrard to boost the midfield (actually, if he wanted, he could be the main striker and I bet he'd get 20 goals a season), or a Messi or a Casillas. Of course they'd have to share the dressing room with a leavening portion of local academy products. It would be nice to have a few top of the range Mercedes S Classes and Granturismo Maseratis alongside our home grown Range Rovers, but to pay for the high running costs you would need the deepest of pockets.

The downside is the vulnerable position the club would then be in. Frankly, even if all 20 Premier League teams were owned by multi billionaires or sovereign wealth funds, only one team could be crowned champions at the end of the season, only three others would qualify for the Holy Grail of the Champions League, and only two could win the cups (and they might well also be in the top four, with teams doubling up on the prizes!). On the other hand most would still have won nothing at the end of the season, and three would be relegated, whether their owners had invested £100M, or £5B.

I suppose in the case all teams were owned by the mega-rich, there might be a suggestion there should be no relegation at all. But who believes a man (or nation) rich enough to invest hundreds of million, or even billions, in a football club, would be satisfied to finish potless and seventeenth in the league?

The rich benefactors would no doubt become bored, might want to take up a new pastime or follow up a new fashion. The poor unskilled worker may be citizen of the UK, but the very wealthy are citizens of the world and go where the opportunities lie. At the moment it seems quite a few Russian plutocrats live in London. In future, if the economic or social climate changes, it might be that Spain, or France (or even South America or Asia) would be more attractive.

Look, chaps, it isn't too much of a flight of f