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Rovers, Race And Dug-out Diplomacy

Posted by on June 23, 2008 2:37 PM | 

BORONOIA strikes again as Paul Ince has been given the backing of the League Managers' Association to take over at Ewood Park despite not having the stipulated coaching badges.

That will be the same League Managers' Association that was so vehemently opposed to Gareth Southgate taking over at Boro because, er, he didn't have the stipulated coaching badges then?

Relax though. This is not about giving other sides a helping hand at Boro's expense, although you could argue that may well turn out to be one of the consequences and Blackburn should really be bossed by someone with all the badges, like Howard Wilkinson for instance. No, this is about political expediency, ticking boxes and maybe fear at being branded 'racist'.

First it must be said that since Southgate and Glenn Roeder were given their two year dispensations to do their coaching courses and get the UEFA Pro-licence by the Premier League - moves that the LMA insisted must by the last - there have been other loophole dodgers that have been endorsed by the dugout staff association.

Roy Keane was given dispensation last term because he won promotion with Sunderland, which seems fair enough as a concrete demonstration of ability, and Avram Grant was given the nod at Chelsea on the grounds that he had managed at international level and been involved in the technical side of the game for decades.

But even then the LMA stressed their opposition to unqualified managers working in the top flight as a principle. In general terms it is a principle I would agree with. In any sphere of employment it makes sense to have as much training as possible and if that can be structured in a coherent way and designed and delivered by people with experience and technical expertise in that area then all the better. All other things being equal you would want your organisation managed by someone who has shown they have reached at least the the minimum standard required in the industry rather than the the bloke who hasn't.

Personally though, I don't believe paperwork should be the only criteria for filling jobs. Apptitude, determination, potential all come into it too, as well as being in the right place at the right time when a vacancy comes up and catching the eye of an employer willing to take a chance on an individual they believe have the ability to short-circuit the exam structure and deliver results. If they get it right they are masters of the game blessed with insight and vision that the pen pushers and badge counters don't possess. If they get it wrong, well, that's their own look out.

The LMA in contrast don't see those as acceptable methods of entry into their industry. Like any self-important professional body of clipboard wielders they defend their qualification criteria jealously, seeing it as a tool to control the supply of labour and ultimately the job prospects of their members at the expense of chancers and interlopers. Which is fair enough.

But having set out their stall with exacting standards it seems opportunistic to then rush to endorse Ince as Rovers boss. Yes he is a member of the LMA and has managed in the lower leagues and has an impressive early record as they have said - but you either NEED the licence to work in the top flight or you don't. Which is it to be?

If they are now to judge every case on its merits and accept there can be exceptional circumstances will they be forwarding an apology to Steve Gibson and Middlesbrough Football Club for their intense public opposition to the appointment of Southgate?

Or is there another dimension? Are the LMA making a politically motivated stepover to get past their own red tape and tick some boxes with positive discrimination?

Brendon Batson, the FA’s equality and diversity consultant, said: "We need someone to carry the flag. Paul is providing great encouragement to other black players looking to pursue a career in coaching or management." Which is true and laudable and at least honest.

Incey has long been a pioneer and for that deserves massive respect. As a top player at a time when the bigots were still making monkey noises and throwing banana the self appointed 'Guvnor' was in the vanguard of changing perceptions of the role and potential of black players and as the first black captain of a senior England side (Ugo Ehoigu had already skippered the Under 21s) he helped crack the glass ceiling of racism.

And there is no doubt that there are other barriers yet to be broken. Only last month the Daily Telegraph and anti-racism outfit Kick It Out published a report into why so few of the huge number of black professionals stay in the game and progress to become managers, coaches or even physios and scouts. In that context Ince has become a cause celebre, and indeed his progress and potential has also become he focus of black political organisations beyond the game.

I can't imagine he is comfortable with that. In general sportsmen are non-political and see their own pursuit of excellence as an individual one rather than part of a wider social context. Having spoken to Ince when he was at Boro my impression was that he was determined, zealous in his quest to win every game and every tackle and intensely focussed but not that he was a radical crusader and certainly not that he encapsulated the hopes of a generation.

He would want to succeed on his own merits and because he was good at the job. Blackburn would want the same. For people to want him to succeed simply because he was black is patronising and insulting. And for him to be given special treatment to that end is open to similar accusations. Are the LMA following the Bateson line and relaxing their own fiercely defended principles for the sake of political expediency and affirmative action? I think we should be told.

*****

MEANWHILE, the appointment of Incey means double trouble for Gareth Southgate - now there are TWO other former inspirational Boro skippers for him to be measured against.

It is inevitable that Ince and Tony Mowbray will become the new proxy benchmarks against which the critics will judge Southgate's progress this year. Every big signing for Rovers will be used as evidence that our man hasn't got pulling power in the transfer market, every shrewdly engineered Baggies win over the big boys proof that Mogga is every inch the master tactician that the Gate is not. Collectively they will fulfill the role that Martin O'Neill in recent years did when he was The One Who Got Away.

If either Rovers or Albion get off to good starts and Boro do not, then not only will the the only barely submerged dissent begin to become vocal again but that now it will have renewed focus. Maybe we have got the wrong former Boro skipper in the dug-out people will start to say.

Of course, that has long been the case anyway in Mogga's case but for Southgate that problem will now be doubled and shifted from the realm of the abstract and made concrete by the league table.

If Boro do not start brightly then the matches against both Rovers (at home on September 27 and away on January 17th) and the Baggies (here on October 29th and there on February 7th) will be potential minefields and bad results may swiftly become sticks to beat the boss with.

The challenge for Southgate this term is to neutralise those putative claims to his throne by delivering the goods. There were glimpses last season that suggest he is not far short of a team that can play exciting, attacking football with pace and movement. If that can be sustained, and if shrewd summer signings can strengthen the squad and help the team push on into the top ten and beyond then the presence of the pretenders will not even be an issue.

He has broad support among the crowd but a sizeable faction remain sceptical or are still smarting over the Cardiff catastrophe and it will not take much for them to become vocal. A good start for Boro can win those waverers back over and put the project back on track.

It will also make what could be tricky Riverside returns for Mogga and Incey little more than a nostalgic case of Friends Reunited.

More musing on this potential political problem in today's Gazette...


KEITH LAMB has said progress is being made on a string of signings and that Boro are confident of having three new faces in place when pre-season training starts on July 7th. You can read the full interview here.

Comments (83)

Tarek El Noury wrote...

Lennon! Aaron Lennon! sign him and non of the troubles above will occur!

if kevin keegan is linked to him so why not southgate? we desperately need a right wing!

Posted by: Tarek El Noury  | June 24, 2008 11:39 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I beleive that Ince or Southgate could one day be the England manager, however this is pure political correctness on the LMAs part.

It must be slightly perturbing to have to take one of these courses as an ex-PL and England player, only to find someone like Howard Wilkinson teaching you tactics, whilst the local PE teacher ends up with the same qualification as you.

I have looked at the LMA site and the living legends are:

Sir Alex Ferguson
Jose Mourhino
Arsene Wenger
Kenny Dalglish
Gerard Houllier
George Graham
Howard Kendall
Sir Bobby Robson
Howard Wilkinson
Graham Taylor

A fine list, but living legends?

Where's Bruce Rioch?

C'Mon Boro!


Posted by: Never Happy  | June 24, 2008 1:50 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

The LMA has very little point to exist other than to pontificate over potential appointments by chairman who have far more to lose by their decision on who they see as best to manage their club.

Let face it, these so-called 'qualifications' are at best induction courses that nobody who turns up for ever fails.

Ince has proved himself to be able of sucessfully managing a team and I fail to see how being black would have hindered him in any way in today's environment.

OK, I accept that whether he wants it or not he will be regarded as a role model for other black people - but he's there on merit and I wish him luck.

As for the Boronoia angle - Southgate had absolutely no experience when he was appointed manager and it has taken him 2 years to get to grips with the job.

So I would give more credence to the LMA if they backed measures to ensure Premiership managers had coached for 2 years before being sanctioned to lead a top-flight club.

Finally, I think Gareth is now ready to show us what he can do and I think we may be pleasantly surprised.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 24, 2008 2:33 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

I think the LMA should butt out of recruitment and politics and concentrate on keeping up ethical standards among their members (not breaking contracts, not tapping up opposition players, not having close relationships with particular agents, not slagging off other teams in the press etc)

Incey will do OK there but with Bentley on his way out and Hughes looking like he will come back for a few of his boys he has a big job on his hands already without being turned into some kind of Kick It Out caped crusader.

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | June 24, 2008 2:53 PM

Nigel wrote...

I read on the BBC website that 20% of pro. footballers are black but only 1% of coaches/managers are black. If that stat. doesn't prove that institutional racism is prevalant in football then I don't know what does.

Personally I'm not at all surprised by the statistics I suspect institutional racism is prevelant in many walks of life, sadly football in this case probably reflects society.

As for the LMA, if they have changed policy since GS was appointed then that change should be announced. If there is no change in policy then the LMA should justify its position with regard to Paul Ince.

I hope Ince has a succesful management career as he is clearly a passionate driven man, I also hope that whenever his teams play Boro we thrash them! Just as I hope we thrash The Baggies or whoever else Tony Mowbray goes on to manage.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 24, 2008 3:17 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

Good luck to him - they wouldn't have dared oppose him as they are desperate to get a black (English) manager in the Premiership. While I agree it's the right intention, they have to be there on merit.

I read an interview with John Barnes yesterday on how clubs hadn't employed him since he left Celtic and it had to be racism as people like Bryan Robson got job after job.

Nothing to do with you being useless at management then Barnsey? Robbo would be a managerial legend in comparison.

The Mirror also stated that we had actually made a bid for McFadden and it was rejected. Surely not true?

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 24, 2008 3:27 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

Holgate Ender hits the nail on the head with some of the issues that might more properly concern the LMA.

Werdermouth seems to be right about the courses the would-be coaches and managers undertake. I don't suppose the course providers make information about pass-rates public (in the way schools' exam success rates, and university course completion and success rates are published). "Induction course" just about sums it up, I suspect.

We all wish Incey, and Mogga, well - so long as it doesn't rebound on the Boro. If Poggi's dreams come to pass, and we can finish, say, 10th next season, no-one here is going to begrudge WBA finishing 11th and Blackburn 12th.

We might, in our wilder fantasies, harbour the hope that Hull City will survive and that either local rivals or some very southerly teams go down, or even that someone outside of the Gang of Four can mount a challenge next year. A cup run maybe? Or is that being greedy?

There is a risk that a serious infection of agreement will break out on this thread.

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | June 24, 2008 4:30 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

I couldnt be more happy that Incy has got the Blackburn job. It increases the pool of English Prem legue managers and ex-England players who we should be looking at to manage our national squad .

My 7 year old said to me while we were watching Copello interviewed ' Is he the England Manager?' I said 'Yes'.
He said ' But he cant speak english, how can he talk to the players?'

Its a bloody good question but more than the language barrier is the cultural barrier. I hated the way Italy played in the Euros and really think we should have one of our own in and dont believe we have an Italian fella that looks like Monty Don.

God we are so lost and Barwick is still getting pay rises . Is nobody able to sack that bloke ?

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 24, 2008 5:17 PM

davwind wrote...

I'm sure that there is a need for an article like this if we were in the middle of "mississippi burning" but wouldn't it be good just to congratulate another ex boro captain (who always gave a 100%+) a pat on the back and say well done, regardless of his skin colour.

This is the 21st century and with the money in the game I'm sure the perceived best man will surely always get the job.

I agree that few black managers have managed at the top level (especially with any real success), my mind conjurors up JEAN TIGANA, RUUD GUILLIT and SPL JOHN BARNES.

Would you give any of them a job at the BORO? Is that racist? I'm sure that Paul Ince would have been welcomed at most Premiership stadiums (with the exception of WEST HAM) because he has a great playing record at the highest level and practised his management skills at the tough end, with success. Which by the way another ex England Captain couldn't handle, TONY ADAMS. Skin colour aside INCEY has earned this opportunity and I wish him well.

Posted by: davwind  | June 24, 2008 6:18 PM

davwind wrote...

TAREK EL NOURY let KK purchase the injury prone 40 minute player that is AARON LENNON. He can't even cross a ball!

Posted by: davwind  | June 24, 2008 6:21 PM

Ste Mac wrote...

I don't think racism is the reason that there are no black British managers in the Prem. I think it is down to just the same demand for instant success that makes clubs buy foreign players than develop their own.

The top clubs now just go for the best available most experienced manager or player they can get and these days usually that means abroad.

The last few Chelsea managers have been Gullit, Vialli, Ranieri, Mourinho, Grant and now Big Phil. I dont know how many of them had the badges. Liverpool it has been Houllier and Benitez. Spurs have had Jol and Ramos.

Blackburn should be given credit for bucking the trend and taking the chance on a rising English manager whatever his colour and whether or not he has badges.

What gets me angry is that the Boro should have been given credit too for promoting from within a manager who was English and committed to the academy and continuity at a club that doesn't sack bosses at the drop of a hat.

The LMA should be promoting that approach but they were too busy scoring cheap points against Southgate and banging on about how important their precious badges were.

But since then they have scurried about dishing out dispensations like confetti.
The LMA are making it up as they go along and trying to make them selves look important in the press by getting involved where they have no business.

Posted by: Ste Mac  | June 24, 2008 10:57 PM

craig j wrote...

I'm not sure if Ince will be used as a stick to beat Southgate with because he was only here a couple of years and no super hero but Southgate should be worried if Mogga does well.

There are already plenty who think Gibbo made a big big mistake not getting Mogga last time the job was up and if he does the business with WBA and we have more of the same dross at the Riverside next year then there will be hell on.

The danger is that if Mogga does well then his next club might be a bigger one than Boro and we will have missed out.

Posted by: craig j  | June 24, 2008 11:06 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

I nearly posted earlier about Ince. Hope he does well and builds on his work at Macclesfield and MK Dons.

I am no expert at race issues in football, I tend to have a go at any players from other teams with no regard to race, creed or colour.

Nigels point is valid but I suspect there may be other factors in play. There tends to be a pyramid effect. Going back 30-40 years there were very few black players, the numbers have increased and as these push through you hope that greater numbers become involved in coaching, management and referring.

There have been breakthroughs in other sports but we need the numbers to create the upper layers of the pyramid. I never thought of Viv Anderson or Rosenior as black but as coaches and managers.

I hope Ince proves a great role model but for the right reasons, basically excellence at what he does. Mowbray, Ince, Pearson and Gate derserve to do well in management.

Race is a side issue and should remain so, any apparent discrimination should be stamped on but there shouldnt be 'quotas' either.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 24, 2008 11:16 PM

Never Happy wrote...

what have you heard on this story AV?

Middlesbrough boss Gareth Southgate last night tabled a £3.5m on bid for Reading midfield dynamo James Harper - in a bid to beat Bolton to his capture.

Harper is keen to avoid dropping into the Championship, and Boro's offer is expected to be accepted.

C'Mon Boro!

**AV writes: We have certainly heard that there is some interest from Boro. And after all, he has scored against us so he ticks all the boxes.

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 25, 2008 8:45 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

It would be useful for the future to know why the posting I did at around 6 p.m. yesterday has not been used - not even in edited form. Meanwhile this morning's...

Several of today's newspapers have it that we are in various stages of final negotiations to sign James Harper from Reading.

This is not a new rumour, of course, but it seems to have moved on a stage.

I suppose - at a pinch - I can see Harper as a younger version of The Boat. Good energy levels, gets around a bit and likes a tackle. But he shares the same faults too - can't pass and doesn't score (except once last season and we know where that was).

The other we are strongly linked with is the one legged Frenchie, Dig 'Ard. A holding midfielder who, apparently, can pass from the back but lacks pace and also doesn't get goals.

If you nailed these two together you might get Sidwell - although Sidwell can pass in the attacking third and score too. But it looks like he's going to Villa.

So, all we can hope is that if these two are being signed then the player we really need (and have done for two seasons) a pacy, creative, passing, right footed/sided attacking midfielder who gets 10 goals a season is also being lined up.

We don't just need that sort of player in his own right but because the kind of service on which Alves will rely to get a decent haul of goals next season will come more from that sort of a player than from the wings. That's his style.

Without that additional player, the other two won't do and don't move us forward - apart from getting some younger legs to replace The Boat which is necessary but far from sufficient.

Despite the energy and commitment that Tuncay has shown for Turkey and Boro I don't think he is that player. He is much better playing off a striker, making and taking, rather than in the midfield itself.

And still no moves or even rumours of moves on a goalie.

From a commercial point of view bringing only Harper and Dig 'Ard in before the end of the week - in my view - won't result in a single extra renewal of a season ticket before the deadline.

**AV writes: John, I can't see any post from you, edited or otherwise, at about 6pm yesterday. They last was just after 9am yesterday. Are you sure you hit the right button?

Posted by: John Powls  | June 25, 2008 9:15 AM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - your reply would be funny if it wasn't true.

I hoped we had got past the MaClaren formula for signing players.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 25, 2008 9:42 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

AV's reply was not totally accurate because he stated Harper ticked all the boxes, there are other boxes.

Dig'ard, our one legged, paceless, goal shy midfield target ticks many also. Sadly they are the boxes we dont need especially with regard to last years injury problemms. He may well be a great aquisition and I will be delighted if he is.

Harper is certainly workmanlike but will he move us forward? As fans we are not well enough equipped to be certain, we rely on what we have seen/heard and innate instincts.

Another week or so and proper activity will occur in the transfer market. Business can be done as shown by the Sidwell and Gera issues, and of course the likelihood of old one leg joining subject to our medical staff not noticing his Herr Flick limp and walking stick.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 25, 2008 10:41 AM

Nigel wrote...

John - I agree that we need an attack minded right footed midfield player, desperatley, I wonder if GS sees Aliadiere in that role? Although I can't see him getting ten goals a season, he should certainly be good for half a dozen.

As for Digard, he sounds okay 'on paper' but the dodgy leg is a worry, surely Boro have learned from the Huth saga?

That said, credit where it is due, we bought a crocked centre back from Real Madrid and he played plenty of games and we sold him on at a good price and of course our new fitness/conditioning coaches are in place now.......

I'm not quite sure what the reasoning behind buying Harper as well as Digard would be though.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 25, 2008 11:29 AM

jiffy wrote...

Many of the previous postings on this topic have made pertinent points re black players, black managers and Ince himself.

To sum up, Ince qualifies for the same reason Roy Keane did - promotion achieved with his former club MK Dons.

Arguably his rescue of Macclesfield in his first job was an even better sign that he has what it takes to be a good manager. His elevation to PL manager is based on sound performances in his managerial career so far.

Commend Blackburn then for not going down the overseas manager route. There are parallels in Ince's maangerial career to date with the early years of Martin O'Neill's management career.

As for the statistics of black players and black managers they are typical statsistics - distorted and phrased to "prove" the point required rather than real.

What percentage of retired players who might be considerinng further careers in the game are black - I bet that is much nearer the 1% in management than the 20% currently playing and very likely much less than 1%.

As someone else pointed out black players in large numbers is a recent development - we haven't yet reached the stage where we have large numbers of black English-born players who have come to the natural end of their playing careers.

The current numbers of black players are also distioted by the large number of African (and to a lesser extent Caribbean) nationals currently plying their trade in this country. (Either that or they play for France - it seems that being born in any of the former French colonies entitles you play for France!)

If any of those go into management later it will most likely be back in their own country - quite probably national managers given their experience here and the rest of Europe. Should we be considering Emerson or Job to replace Southgate? Of course not!

Re Boro off to a good start next season and the players we should siign and not sign. All missing the point - unless we get ourselves a genuine goalkeeper then it doesnt matter who plays in front of them - with Jones or Turnbull in goal we will be looking at having to score 5 a game just to get a point!

Posted by: jiffy  | June 25, 2008 12:13 PM

Mainy wrote...

All this about Incey and no mention of mclaren geting the fc twenty job?

Like it or not he is our most succseful manager and was harshly treated as England manager. You can coach all you like, its up to the players to do the job on the pitch - which they never!

Mclaren was blamed for putting in Carson yet for weeks before hand the papers were calling for him to be given a chance. Even the greatest of keepers make mistakes, James has made planty and so did Seaman. Also Robinson has yet we'd still take him so you cant really blame mclaren for giving him a chance.

So I for one would like to wish Mclaren good luck in his new role, it'll be interesting to see what he does with Wilkshire and to see if he comes knocking on our door for any players (Boateng maybe).

Ince will do well at blackburn if he can keep his squad together.

And AV, above you mentioned that harper scored against us so he fits our list of possible signings, bloody hell mate, its big list Southgate has to work through then this summer isnt it?

I really he the Harper thing isnt true.

Posted by: Mainy  | June 25, 2008 12:51 PM

stockton red wrote...

John Powls.Just a note to put you right on Harper. Last year he was ever present for Reading and scored six league goals - not one as you suggest.

I dont know enough about him to pass an opinion but since you think the sun shines out of Sidwell's backside I asked a mate of mine who lives down there to ask the opinion of a couple of Reading ST holders who he's friendly with.

The view seemed to be that there was little between Harper and Sidwell and that they assumed that Sidwell's motivation for moving was entirely financial because although a decent player he was never going to be good enough to get into the Chelsea team.

Posted by: stockton red  | June 25, 2008 12:56 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Jiffy - spot on post

by the way Jiffy everyone knows that people can come up with statistics to prove anything, 24% of people know that.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 25, 2008 1:39 PM

Never Happy wrote...

JP I have just read an article and an extract from it reads:

'And while there is no requirement for anyone other than a club's manager to have a Pro Licence, the Boro boss will be accompanied by assistant manager Malcolm Crosby and first-team coach Colin Cooper when he begins his studies.'

So it looks like Crosby is here for keeps, unless he's getting his pro-licence so that he can manage Man U when old beetroot head retires!

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 25, 2008 1:52 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

From what I've seen of Harper he's looked quite a decent player with a bit of pace and skill and could form a good partnership with Digard in a 4-2-3-1 formation.

Whether Bullard is also going to come is still open to speculation, but may I suggest a swap deal involving Arca instead - who I think everyone has forgotten is still at Boro.

I'm not sure where that leaves O'Neil - though maybe he will go to Fulham and Arca can head back to Wearside.

It may well be that we play 4-4-2 against teams who we should be looking to beat - that formation could involve using Mido alongside Alves with service from Downing and Johnson and only one 'holding' midfielder alongside Tuncay.

It would be a step forward for Boro to have a means of changing our style of play and having the players to make it work.

It's just that keeper issue to resolve now - It's been reported that Robinson is set for Villa but there still seems to be a few more stoppers available if pressed.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 25, 2008 2:37 PM

Never Happy wrote...

So if the rumours are true and Boro sign Harper and Digard where does that leave George and Shawky?

I know that rumours of the Boat leaving having been floating around for ages, and maybe he will return to Holland and join McClaren.

However GS stated that Shawky would play a bigger role next season, but unless GSs attacking system involves three defensive midfielders, I can not see this being the case if the above two are signed. Maybe Boro will lose interest in Digard if they sign Harper, or visa versa.

Or maybe its just all media speculation.

Either way signing one or other of the above will not increase season tickets sales.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 25, 2008 3:06 PM

John Powls wrote...

stockton red

I don't believe that the sun shines out of any part of Sidwell's anatomy. I use him as an example because of Gate's oft-quoted admiration of him and that last close season, in January and for most of this close season Boro have been linked with him and continue to be.

As for the opinion 'down there', I live 'down there' and am surrounded by Royals fans to whom I have to listen rather a lot - amongst me doing missionary work with them about Boro.

Of course they have a dim view of Sidwell leaving for money and glory. Although the emotional view is understandable - we have certain ex-players of whom we have the same view - it is difficult to see what else a professional player would move for other than money and glory.

The biggest gripe most of them have is that Reading didn't spend the big fee they raked in for Sidwell on players that might have kept them up.

Even the most ardent that I know, however, wouldn't give you an argument that Harper was the equal of Sidwell - despite the fact that the latter didn't prove good enough for Chelksi's first team.

Frankly, many of them also have something of a dim view of Harper and a couple of others in their squad who have been lobbying to be away ever since the season ended. Vitriol is often dished out on the odd phone-ins that I hear.

He is a good, honest, journeyman pro and his virtues are the ones I quoted above to which you are right to add his playing every game - albeit in a team that was relegated.

Despite your correction of my remark above no-one 'down here' would describe getting goals amongst them. The description in the factfile and the article in the Gazette today rings true.

The other differentiator for me between Sidwell (or someone like him) and Harper is that it looks to me like Harper is much more like Dig 'Ard and neither of them are much like what we actually need.

So, all I was saying was that, for me, if the choice was Harper or Sidwell (or someone like him) and assuming that Dig 'Ard is coming then I wouldn't choose Harper.

But then, as I said, O'Neill seems to agree and to have beaten Gate to the punch on Sidwell.

Never Happy

Read that article too and my heart sank. But Gate must value him and it's his team, after all.

Still, maybe we could have someone who knows how to coach attacking play in addition to Crosby.

And, if he's staying, maybe someone could persuade Crosby to realise that Boro are paying his wages now, not The Mackems. The most we heard from him last season was in his praise of his time there before the derby at SoS.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 25, 2008 3:20 PM

Never Happy wrote...

JP - We all get the hump if a player we like leaves our club, Reading fans can only be the same.

You wrote:

The biggest gripe most of them have is that Reading didn't spend the big fee they raked in for Sidwell on players that might have kept them up.

Sidwell joined Chelsea on 1 July 2007 on a free transfer from Reading

So it was the clubs fault for not cashing in and allowing him to run down his contract.

Despite allegedly earning £70k a week at Chelsea he is not signing for Villa (you have to assume that they are going to match his Chelsea wages) until he gets a pay off from Chelsea.

He probably got a lump sum when he joined Chelsea, earned mega bucks for not playing, wants a lump sum to leave them, and then earn more mega bucks at Villa.

I hoped Boro would sign Sidwell from Reading, however he is now coming across as a Charlie Big Potato's who thinks he is better than he has proved himself to be. I now think Boro will be better off missing out on signing him

Totally under whelmed by the Harper link.

Don't know enough about Digard, but if he was a top player Wenger would be after him to replace Flamini would he not?

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 25, 2008 4:07 PM

Mainy wrote...

Posted by: Werdermouth

'It may well be that we play 4-4-2 against teams who we should be looking to beat - that formation could involve using Mido alongside Alves"

Just to raise a small point but if you are looking to play 4-4-2 against teams we should be looking to beat then why mention any other formation as we should be looking to beat every team put out in front of us.

I dont care if its Marske United or the Brazilian national team, we should always be looking to beat a team coz if we dont then its no wonder the top four will not be broken as they do look to beat every team!

Just another small point for John Powls, you said about reading fans: 'The biggest gripe most of them have is that Reading didn't spend the big fee they raked in for Sidwell on players that might have kept them up.'

Didnt sidwell leave on a free so how are they meant to spend that?

If we have to make a choice between Digard and Harper then go for Digard purely for he fact that Harper is 28 this year. Say he gets a three year contract from us, we will not make much if any money back on a 31year old non international. If we get digard, he is 21, an under 21 international, if he improves then he has a chance of making the french team since they are all about to retire, come three years he'll be 24 and sellable. Possibly make money back or a smallloss/profit.

I'm not saying we should be a selling club but it is something we should be considering when buying players.

What makes me laugh about prices these days is Sidwell is valued at £4.5m yet inter are said to be trying to buy Lampard for £6.6m. I know who id rather have in my team and I'd pay that little extra to get him despite his age.

I dont know why peopl are opposed to a bid for Lennon or Wright-Phillips, both are decent players and right wingers with pace,skill & the ability to score goals but hey we dont need players like that do we? Not when we can play either centre midfielders out there of centre forwards there.

With any luck next season could see Mido out on the wing. If you dont like any of those options how about Pennent from Liverpool?

Personally I think Southgate will go 3-5-2 as this is the only reason I can think of that he keeps looking at defensive midfielders. GS played in this formation for many many years and he could make it work.

With our current players, i think we should line up:

Turnbull
Wheater Huth Poggi
Young O'Neil Tuncay Arca Downing
Mido Alves

Strong at the back, two players who can get forward/back and actually cross a decent ball in from the wings, two holding midfielders who can get forward when needed, Tuncay roaming between midfield and attack and finally I'm giving Mido the benefit of doubt due to his apparent weight loss as I think he would link very well with Alves.

Posted by: Mainy  | June 25, 2008 6:05 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

How many defensive midfielders do we need?

Our main problem last season was getting anyone outside of Downing to support Alves [when we finally got him and then got him fit.]

Tuncay and Alliadiere tried up front but at best looked like link up players to supply the striker. We are well short on strikers and we need another incase Alves gets injured.
Harper is not the answer.

So far Southgate is gambling on the goalie situation and on a new Mido turning up while attempting to buy more midfielders coz they Want to come to BORO.

Roque Santa Cruz and Bently were thinking about leaving Blackburn and Incey is mad if he doesnt stop them but those lads would fit in and complete our jigsaw puzzle.

In reality we probably couldnt afford them even if they did want to come to Boro. It is this type of player that would increase our season ticket sales.

Wouldnt it be nice though!

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 25, 2008 7:19 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

We have mostly been saying this for ages.

It looks as though O'Neill may be going south, Arca going north to our nearest neighbours and George going to where he can get a guaranteed game every week (even if it's back in Holland with Steve Mac).

We seem mostly to have concerns should we start the season with only Jones or Turnbull between the sticks.

Therefore we need at least:

(1) a ball-winning midfielder with young legs and a good pair of lungs on him (and an ability to pass the ball would be appreciated)

(2) a skillful, playmaker midfielder who can pass a ball and hopefully hit the net maybe 10 times a season (we are not greedy, we are not asking for the goals a Lampard or a Gerrard would score)

(3) a right sided midfielder, if you like, a right-footed version of Downing - though it is unlikely we could afford one of his quality - who can cross the ball and put a few in the net as well (basically we would prefer all the midfielders to be able to chip in with SOME goals next year)

(4) an experienced goalie who can earn or save points - one who could dominate even his own six yard box and have the ability to catch and punch, and could kick a ball reasonably well wouldn't go amiss. One in whom the defence could have some confidence would be nice. In a few years that might be Turnbull.

This pre-supposes that Mido returns to Teesside a fitter, slimmer, shadow of his former self and committed to showing he can contribute properly to the season.

It also pre-supposes that Shawky WILL be fit, available and might occasionally be allowed to put his boots on (it beggars belief that someone able to hold down a midfiled place in a repeat African Nations Cup-winning team couldn't get into a Boro midfield that wasn't exactly world-class last season).

It further pre-supposes we don't sell any of our other players (not much point selling, say Wheater or Downing as it would cost a lot of money to replace them with inferior and less committed alternatives - we want a stronger squad, not a weaker one).

It also pre-supposes we can get Huth fit because we will need cover at some point in the season - the "start of season injury crisis" would be a good thing to avoid this year.

If we could pre-suppose all this, and that our backroom staff can keep an eye on the health and fitness of our squad, and encourage and bring on the youngsters such as Josh Walker and J Grounds, do you think there would be any reason to suppose we might sell a few season tickets for the next season? Or is this a pipedream?

I would prefer not to sit next to a row of red plastic (empty) seats, but I have this feeling the season ticket sales will be greatly reduced this coming year. No word yet of any signings that would "put bums on seats".

Funny game, football. You are asked to put money up front for the following season. But we don't know whether we are putting down the money for a new Passat, an 8 year old Corsa, or a 1970 VW Beetle (let alone what size engine might be powering the machine next year).

Of course I realise the Gang of Four will have cornered the market on Bentleys, Rollers, Mercs and that sporty little Aston Martin, but an idea whether we are likley to be able to get out of the slow lane might have been nice for some people before the season ticket cash had to be splashed.

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | June 26, 2008 12:51 AM

mike wrote...

Please correct me if I am wrong but didn't WBA go back to the Championship once before under the leadership of Mowbray while Boro stayed in the Premiership??

**AV writes: No, Megson and then Robson have both taken them down in recent years. Mogga's got to the play-offs but lost to Derby in his first part season then to promotion last time, his first full campaign.

Posted by: mike  | June 26, 2008 6:46 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Mainy

Very funny, but until you've completed your UEFA pro licence spare me the sentence disection and try to understand the argument.

I'm talking about playing a counter-attacking formation of 4-2-3-1 against teams who turn up with ambition and press forward, versus 4-4-2 against teams who sit back and defend.

As for playing with a back 3, I just don't think that works - it leads to central defenders being pulled out of position and distracts wide players from getting forward effectively, as well as creating confusion if the shape needs to revert to a back 4 - besides we're not exactly blessed with central defensive cover at the moment.

On the subject of player valuations - isn't £6m for O'Neil looking rather over-valued too? (who incidently should be playing in a central midfield pair) - But I don't think anybody can actually make sense of the transfer market these days.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 26, 2008 7:10 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Werdermouth

I share your concern over 352, it works if you have wing backs. I use the term deliberately because not all full backs or wide midfield players are suited to that type of role.

Two current premiership fullbacks who can play the role are Cole and Young. They are both mobile and comfortable on the ball. Of course we had the infamous Ziege who was good at it, the Germans stuck rigidly to that system for years.

Traditional full backs tend to recert to type and you end up 532, attacking wide players can cause you to play 334!

In our case Young can cope but I think Taylor will struggle. But those are only my views.

Onto last night and Germany vs Turkey.
I saw shades of some of our displays where dominate the first half but dont make it count and suffer at the end.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 26, 2008 9:20 AM

stockton red wrote...

Forever Dormo- I agree entirely with your assessment of the players we need.

On the issue of ticket sales what sort of player would put bums on seats as you say? Last year we paid £12 mill for a free scoring centre forward with little or no effect.

I suppose if we got Deco or Arshavin or Sweinsteigger it would create a buzz but you know those players are beyond us.

I think there will be quite a lot of non renewals but unless the youth of the area have fallen out of love with the game surely numbers will be made up by under18 ST holders at £5 per match.

Boro fans are in no different position to any others. With the exception of Spurs who have made two major signings there have been very few transfers of note. In our area none of the NE teams have signed anybody at all.

**AV writes: Almost everyone in football is on holiday until July 1st when the new contract year begins.

Posted by: stockton red  | June 26, 2008 9:35 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

And of course Euro 2008 has finished, have the various tournaments around the world like South American qualifying finished as well?

The big clubs will start shuffling players and eventually the cascade process will being in earnest. The best we have done pre season was when JFH, Veruka et al arrived for pre season. Then we were Cup winners and in Europe.

Truthfully even the big boys dont have settled squads before the season starts but they do have bigger and better squads in the first place and the players brought in augment the ones they already have.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 26, 2008 10:58 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I have just read what Keith Lamb has to say, whilst is is good news that new players will be signed by July 7th, if it is Harper and Digard (2 similar players) the end is nigh for both Shawky and especially the Boat.

So GSs words a few weeks ago about Shawky now sound very hollow indeed

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 26, 2008 11:49 AM

Mainy wrote...

Werdermouth

I dont need to complete my pro licence, I just need a good argument as to why I should be given dispensation to do the job for two years whilst working towards that piece of worthless paper during that time!

I do get your argument but IMO we need to always play with two up front as our current midfielders dont score enough.

Even if you had Alves as the one and Downing Tuncay & Aliadiere as the 3, Southgate has shown it wouldnt be a 4-2-3-1, he always seems to go 4-4-1-1 with Tuncay behind Alves (usually making it a five in midfield) and Aliadiere out on the right wing.

Like I said, I think Southgate will play 3-5-2, I think it can work if you have the right players for it.

With Huth, Wheater & Poggi we have a strong back three, ok we may be short of cover but Im a big Riggott fan and think he can easily play in this formation whilst Hines, McMahon, Grounds & Taylr could easily adapt to it (whilst Young could also play as one of the three).

You seem to agree that Young could easily play down the right as a wing back but you have concerns over Taylor playing down the left. So do I, I think he is OK at left back, nowt flash but does a job but he aint a wingback. Hence the reason I played Downing there, he could easily do it.

Your other (this isnt just aimed at you btw Werdermouth as am just talking in general now) concerns seem to be that it would end up as a 5-3-2.

I dont think this would happen with Downing on the left, at worst it would end as 4-4-2 with Young being pushed back & O'Neil or Tuncay covering the right wing. If you play the formation with 2 full backs then yes I agree it would more likely be a 5-3-2.

It was mentioned that Cole is the only other player capable of playing this formation, I disagree as Wayne Bridge can also play it and he linked up well with Downing in the England game so might be worth a cheeky bid to get him in as left back.

Leighon Baines of Everton & Nicky Shorey of Reading could also play the left wing back role but both of them could end up being pushed back.

Posted by: Mainy  | June 26, 2008 12:32 PM

Jaguar Boy wrote...

I'm echoing Ignorants comments here on the volume of defensive midfielders we seem to be stacking up.

We get rid of Rocky, George looks set to be off, Mendi's gone but was never used as an attacking mid anyway, leaving us with Oneill, Cattermole, Shawky, Arca, and we're looking to add two more in Digard and Harper - all ideally to fill one position?

I know Arca has been used in attack, but has no pace, fell apart mid season and hasn't recovered.

ONeill has energy but doesn't create or score, so would best be used in defensive midfield unless we want to mark a left back/winger out of the game.

I agree with Forever Dormo in the assessment of the positions we need to fill, with the attacking mid and right wingers being priority in my eyes.

I don't see Tuncay fitting in midfield, rather off the main striker, and Ali has looked his best down the right.

we've seen most English teams, especially Boro, get confused when playing anything other than 4-4-2, and 4-2-3-1 does have a habit of simply reverting back to 4-4-2 with 2 defensive midfielders anyway.

Assuming we're playing 4-4-2, and we get the 2 players we're linked with, we're looking at:

LW: 1st Downing
2nd Jinky

DM: 1st Digard (if coming)
2nd Harper (if coming)
3rd Shawky
4th Cattermole
5th Arca (if staying)
6th Oneill (if staying)

AM: 1st Absolutley No-one
2nd (very distant 2nd!) Arca (if staying)
3rd Still No-one
4th Any of the other defensive mids (please no!)

RW: 1st No-one
2nd Aliadiere
3rd Oneill (if staying)
4th Any of the other defensive mids (please no!)

Surely we have learned from last year that just 'amassing' midfielders with no clear positions filled doesn't work.

I'd disagree with anyone suggesting playing Downing as wing back, as he can't defend, and it would be a blatant waste playing our best player and only creative midfielder out of position, ruining supply to the front men.

Posted by: Jaguar Boy  | June 26, 2008 1:25 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

O'Neil is not a defensive midfielder and if he was ever used in the centre it would be as the attacking player.

I think we are looking at Digard/Harper/Shawky/Arca as the four players competing for the two midfield spots with maybe O'Neil featuring there as well. That may not be as attacking as some would like.

I would expect Cattermole to leave along with Boateng.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 26, 2008 1:48 PM

Nigel wrote...

I can't see both Digard and Harper coming, one or the other maybe but not both. Unless there is a bigger clear out of midfielders from the squad than we are aware of. I'm sure The Boat will go, Shawky may well do, so may Catts.

I think we're looking at Aliadiere right midfield with O'Neil plus a n other in the middle. With two of Alves, Tuncay and Mido up front.

That leaves us needing a keeper and ideally an attacking central midfield player too.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 26, 2008 1:50 PM

Never Happy wrote...

so by the end of next season Boro will have the most qualified coaching staff in the PL.

Even without the badges surely one of the three can see that Boro need an attacking midfielder as a priority singing.

The mostly unqualified 25,000 that go to home games know this so why don't GS, MC or CC seem to?

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 26, 2008 1:56 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

I haven't yet had the chance to read what Keith Lamb is saying. From the post of Never Happy at 11.49, I assume our Financial Guru has said we should wait until 7 July before we see which players we will be signing.

OK. How about a deal, then? How about giving the fans until 7 July (by which time they will know what has happened in the transfer market) to make their decision as to whether or not to buy a season ticket, with their seats safe until then?

Or does the sauce for the goose go only one way?

**AV writes: I'll stick a link on the end of the current blog.

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | June 26, 2008 1:57 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Harper now is exactly the same as O'Neil was at Pompy before we bought him. If we had failed to get O'Neil I could see why we would go for Harper.

Instead of blowing wonga on lots of holding players we should be searching and having a go at someone who can do some damage for Boro in the final [ attacking ] third of the pitch.

The signings of Harper and Digard must mean that 2 of Boat, Arca and O'Neil are on their way. Strange things are afoot here , I hope Lambie has a bloody ace up his sleeve!

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 26, 2008 2:29 PM

Nigel wrote...

So, judging by the Gazette report and Keith Lambs comments, we have three signings lined up, Harper , Digard and A N O ther.

I hope A N Other wears gloves and a green top. Judging by the type of players Harper and Digard are, my guess is next seasons attacking midfield players will be Aliadiere, Tuncay and Downing.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 26, 2008 3:11 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

Mainy

I'm still not convinced about playing three at the back. Here's why:

It seems the system is based on accommodating Huth, Pogi & Wheater in the same team rather than deciding on a first choice central pairing.

Downing is better utilised as an attacking force either switching wings or cutting inside and shooting - which kind of rules him out of the wingback role as well.

It takes a lot of work to get a back three to play the role effectively, which would also need to be practised in the reserves and youth teams to build up cover - even our so-called England elite players couldn't get the system to work properly.

Other Options:

Playing a 4-1-3-2 may well be a better system with Digard sitting in front of the defence and bringing the midfield into play.

The midfield could be three from Downing, Johnson, O'Neil, Ali & Tuncay and the two up front being Alves & Mido/Ali.

In general, I think formations are becoming much more fluid in today's game - in attacking play a player's movement being the major factor with the ability to escape markers by switching positions - whereas good defensive play also requires ability on the ball to allow players to bring the ball out of defence and create space for the midfield.

Finally:

On the Lamb article - I hope the possible 3rd signing is a keeper or at the very least Tuncay has persuaded one of Turkey's midfield playmakers to continue to wear the distinctive 'Turkey' shirt at the Riverside.

I also agree that we're at risk of building up a dearth of defensive midfielders - perhaps Southgate is planning a 3-6-1 formation?

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 26, 2008 3:28 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Werdermouth

And the midfield 6 will be narrrow with no width.

Tend to agree that Downing is not a wing back, well no more than Arca is a full back.

It does seem to be bulking up with people with players who arent suitable for the jobs we have available. Almost a case of never mind the quality feel the width but in this case there isnt any.

Gate has stated he is happy up front so assmue that he has pencilled in Aliadiere as right side. If Mido and Alves are starters is he going to use Tuncay in goal? Sorry, Corporal Jones has that job.

Truth is we are all whistling in the dark until we see people in press conferences.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 26, 2008 4:01 PM

BoroMike wrote...

There is a few websites out there that are linking us with Scott Carson. He would be a great keeper to sign as he has the ambition of getting into the England team. So he might be the mystery third signing? Along with Digard and Harper?

Does anybody know anything about Digard because if you do I'd love to know how he plays or is he a Rochemback type of player. Harper seems a good signing but I'm sure there are better players out there to sign than them two.

However, I have faith in Southgate, after all he wants the best for the team just as much as us fans do!

Posted by: BoroMike  | June 26, 2008 5:06 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Corpral Southgate [close to transfer window closing]-'Dont panic Captain Lambwering, they will never get through our packed midfield and even if they do we know Tuncay's been in goal at international level and they wont be expecting that.

Captain Lambwering- ' They dont like it up em!'

Enemy Club Recruitment Officer [infront of squad line up]- "What is your name of this here fine left winger?'

Corporal Southgate- 'Dont Tell him Downing!'

Epoisode of Steve Gibsons barmy army ends with bewildered Boro midfielders marching on carrying Private Mido on a stretcher to the sound of PIGBAG.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 26, 2008 6:19 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

Boro Mike - Scott Carson? Yes please, and let's not waste time trying to shave a few quid off the deal, only to let another club in!

A good, young keeper, from Cumbria if I remember correctly so he'll sound a bit local and should have no trouble settling in (if Carlisle is a big city and Penrith a big town, the Boro is a metropolis and Redcar is very Heaven - mind you, Roseberry Topping and Eston Nab lose out in comparison to Scafell Pike or Blencathra). I'd love it to happen but it's too good to be true, surely.

There would also be a risk supporters would start to say nice things about Keith Lamb. Would he be able to cope?

Finally it is difficult to stop smiling at Nigel's comment at 3.11pm "I hope AN Other wears gloves and a green top..." We are all thinking the same thing!

And REALLY finally, with regard to the comment of Stockton Red at 9.35am, I guess you are right that it would take a stellar signing to put bums on seats, and we are not in that league if even a £12M striker didn't enthuse the crowd (I think he'll make it, though, and was pleased we had signed him).

Credit where it is due, though, the £95 ticket for under 18's and the slightly higher figure for 18-21s was a good move and hopefully will fill many seats.

If not, those in charge at the club must wonder what to do to encourage locals to part with their money.

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | June 26, 2008 6:40 PM

Mainy wrote...

Just to make things clear, I wouldn't play a 3-5-2. For me it has to be 4-4-2 all the way, however I'm getting a feeling that Southgate is leaning towards this formation by the signings he is looking at.

Digard, Harper & a 3rd, we all know the 3rd will be some random defender from outer Mongolia or somewhere.

Wheater, Poggi & Huth as the three may look like trying to accommodate all three or is it three thugs to scare attackers and protect a reserve keeper that will be being played this year?

The signings we are looking at worry me, we have Harper - a defensive midfielder that scores about one in every 15 so is no better than we have,and Digard who seems to be injury prone so will possibly take over Boksic's sicknote tag (which i believe Huth and Mido are fighting over at the minute).

The positions we need to strengthen are being ignored which is what is leading me to think we will change formation this year.

Att Mid, Right Wing, Left Back & Keeper are in major need of improvement, we also need cover at Right Back but all are ignored in favour of two defensive midfielders.

**AV writes: I don't think Harper is "a defensive midfielder." I think he is an experienced solid midfielder with good engines who can tackle and pass without being a spectacular creative force. I think he is Robbie Mustoe type... and that is far from a derogatory label.

Posted by: Mainy  | June 26, 2008 9:05 PM

Mainy wrote...

Just a quick thought on the 3rd signing (everyone is confident that Harper and Digard are the other two) maybe the 3rd will be a forward.

We lost (to our gain really) Dong Gook and Hutchinson last season & bear in mind that we already had Alves by the time we let Hutchinson go (just the red tape to sort at the time) & LDG went at end of season leaving us two down.

We were, according to Lamb (so take that with a pinch of salt) 'very close to signing Fred' as well as Alves. Maybe we have gone back in for him and managed for once to keep it under wraps??

Posted by: Mainy  | June 26, 2008 9:16 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

So the Downing to Liverpool for 12m story reappears in BBC's gossip column. Let us hope it is no more than that.

A situation of Downing out and Harper Digard in is as John Powls would put it 'bringing in Championship players ready for being a Championship team'.

I am sure the latter are worthy players but not the answer to our lack of pace and creativity across the rest of midfield.

But to lose the one player who has consistently shown attacking flair, pace and now added goals would be a blow.

But it is only a BBC gossip column headline and lets hope that is what it remains.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 27, 2008 7:51 AM

John Powls wrote...

Mainy

Assuming, as most of the press seem to be, that Digard and Harper are almost done deals then we must hope that the 'Third Man' is the pacy, creative attacking midfielder that should have been the main target all along.

Gate has already said that he's happy with what he has available up front. Whether we agree or not, adding there just isn't the priority.

But, if it is only three and it is the midfielder we need - that means no new goalkeeper. Big mistake. On that, I only cling to some of what The Count said which seemed to leave the door slightly ajar.

On the downside, many papers this morning tell us that the Scousers are about to bid for Stewie. They must be firmly rebuffed. His loss would be another Big Mistake.

Of course, Stewie may be more tempted by the Scousers than he was by Spurs - the Champions League has to be a big draw. If he becomes determined to go then we won't hang on and it would be a major hole in our team.

He has often said before that one thing that would convince him to stay is the ambition of MFC backed, in particular, by the calibre of the signings that are made to improve the squad.

That takes us back to the creative attacking midfielder. If we had such then Stewie wouldn't be our only source of supply as he has had to be for several seasons past and be the only one chipping in with a reasonable haul of goals from midfield.

That might help convince him.

I think Johnno has potential but when he has had first team opportunities he has shown that he is not Stewie yet. He may become so but that's a gamble.

Let's hope Stewie stays. Given the rumours, and with all they are doing to try to convince people to renew season tickets with the promise of 'jam (of unknown quality/quantity) tomorrow' in transfers in it may be that Gate and The Count need to re-issue the 'hands off' warning again.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 27, 2008 8:04 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Ian

I don't think we need to worry about Downing going to liverpool - Boro have categorically stated he is not for sale and it would be commercial suicide to let him go at this point.

However, I do believe he'll probably move on in the next couple of years if Boro don't make it into Europe soon - especially if Johnson makes good progress and Porritt comes through.

Downing also knows he's in Capello's plans and probably wouldn't risk talking over Crouch's cushion on the Liverpool bench - let alone risk Rafa rotation roulette.

Perhaps Rafa will also bid for Bentley so he can build his fantasy England team?

Do I hear you sharpening your pencil AV in preparation of an article on the meaningless concept of a player's contract?

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 27, 2008 8:59 AM

Si wrote...

Ian:

With Adam Johnson coming through and with Porritt signing a deal, some people here might actually think selling Stewie is good business.

But - if we were indeed to let go of a proven, left-sided goalscoring winger, not to mention a local lad, then yes, I would be just as concerned as you are.

It's up to him, really, in the end. He'd be best remembering exactly what happened to Ziege and Zenden.

Posted by: Si  | June 27, 2008 9:02 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Si and Werdermouth

I think it is a paper rumour but if Spurs tested his resolve, if Liverpool come knocking it is a different kettle of fish.

Liverpool thought Ziege was a full back and Zenden would give them width. Wrong on both counts. The current team are crying out for a decent wide player. Pennant blows hot and cold, Babbel is always coming in onto his right foot and his delivery is inconsistent.

The problem Downing would have is that he would have to warm his bum and when played there would be every chance he would be on the right so he could tuck in. Rafa wants a compact team. Rafa is the only manager with an internet game named after him, www.fantasyrafa.com, where you have to name the team each week.

I think Downing will move in a year or two, the five year contract gives negotiating muscle to Boro in the future for that event. Players rarely stay at a club forever. It is also important for youth develeopment that players progress and get their chance.

The crucial thing is the jam tomorrow that JP aludes to. My guess it is not Hartleys or Robertsons, lets hope its not the value range, buy two get one free or past their sell by dates. At the moment I am not sure the players that we linked to buying will resolve our problems.

Notice Scott Carson being mentioned, I think Villa were scared off by the £10m Liverpool wanted. We cant afford that sort of money but if Robinson does go to Villa maybe a loan for Carson. Sorry, its Corporal Jones as the custodian of choice.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 27, 2008 10:25 AM

Bert Weedon wrote...

Keith Lamb says " We did better than most English teams in the UEFA Cup over the past 20 years and we’d love another a crack at it."

Yet again he keeps harping on about the past and introducing a time constraint that suits his own agenda.

Boro will not sell any more season tickets because of what happened in Keith Lambs chosen time limits.

This arrogant deluded man and his inane warblings are tiresome. He should be gagged or even removed from the club

Posted by: Bert Weedon  | June 27, 2008 11:08 AM

Nigel wrote...

'Ignorant' - excellent post, you should be a screen writer - Perhaps you could write a script for a film 'Escape From the Riverside' who would be the Tunnel King?

The more I read the more I believe that GS believes he has the attacking midfield players he needs, after all Aliadiere, Tuncay and Downing have plenty of pace and skill. I can't see a third midfield player coming, unless several are shipped out.

With regard to the Downing rumour, that one will constantly surface in every transfer window, after all he is a class player. One day he will move on but my guess is not this Summer.

Carson would be a great buy, Harper isn't the 'dog' some posters seem to think he is, did someone not post that he scored six league goals last season? Not that defensive then. Digard is an unknown quantity to me at least but presumably not to GS.

With Harper and Digard in the squad and a new keeper we will have the strongest squad next season we have had for a long time.

Finally, I can't see another striker coming, how would we fit in Alves, Mido and say Fred into the squad. You need European footie on a Thursday night to accomodate three strikers in a squad.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 27, 2008 11:22 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

With the prospect of Carson, "Digger" and Harper coming in it sounds like our scouting network has been watching too many cowboy films - perhaps we should make a bid for that big Jessie of a keeper at Portmouth?

Though on a serious suggestion - How about making a bid for Colin 'Kazim Kazim' Richards? he would definitely make a good impact player on the right and shouldn't be too pricey.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 27, 2008 11:26 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Liverpool might try and use Carson as part of any deal for Downing.

Hopefully Downing will as GS says be going no where.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 27, 2008 11:27 AM

BoroMike wrote...

I think Boro should get Carson for £10m. It's money well spent as he is young and can last at Boro for years as goalkeepers usually play until well after 30 years old.

If we were to sell Downing, i think a swap deal for Jermaine Pennant would be great. So we would have two pacey players in Pennant on the right and Johnson on the left who can interchange and provide Alves with the goods.

Posted by: BoroMike  | June 27, 2008 12:33 PM

Mainy wrote...

BoroMike, £10m for Carson and you think thats money well spent??? Are you for real? They are only looking to pay £12m for Downing and you honeslty think that a £2m price diff is a fair price between the two? Not a chance.

If they honestly want Downing it can only be because Villa have told them where to go with their persuit of Barry.

We should do the same, if we are even contemplating a deal with them then it should be a player plus cash deal involving £8m for Downing & we get Alonso, Carson & Pennant too.

Posted by: Mainy  | June 27, 2008 1:40 PM

Neil (USA) wrote...

I don't envy the job that Ince has taken on at Blackburn. I think Hughes took those guys about as far as he could, and his success shows the catch-22 that teams like Boro and Blackburn have.

In our case, a period of time where we "seem" to have underachieved has led to disgruntled fans and an alarming number of empty red seats on match days.

Blackburn's success will surely lead to a mini-exodus. Incey has proclaimed himself "the Guvnor" and issued the obligatory hands-off statement to the usual suspects, but I'll be surprised if he wins that battle of wills.

Take away Bentley and Santa-Cruz and that team will be a shadow of its former self (oh, how I wish they hadn't been playing in the opening match of last season!).

So GS has quite the balancing act to do with regards to signings. As fans we want the "Juninho-like" sexy signings, but players like that will probably not work out long term. Harper and Digard are not spectacular, but if they help us to become more of a solid "Everton-like" side, then I'm all for it.

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | June 27, 2008 1:40 PM

Nigel wrote...

Never Happy - I think that you've hit the nail on the head.

Perhaps the scenario is/was Boro contact Liverpool asking if Carson is available and the response is 'we'll swap him for Downing,' hence the rumour in todays papers.

It's also possible that the same happened with Fulham ie Boro ask if Bullard is available and the response is we'll swap him for Young.

Who knows; transfer negotiations are complicated and people/organisations with varying agendas feed stories to the newspapers.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 27, 2008 1:41 PM

steve h wrote...

We're not after a keeper.

The 3rd signing is that dutch gadgie. I read that on fmttm.

Posted by: steve h  | June 27, 2008 4:25 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Boro Mike

A reason liverpool might want Downing (and I say might) is because the delivery from Babbel and Pennant is so hit and miss. The idea of Pennant firing random crosses on one wing (plus his unstable background and behaviour) and the as yet unproven Johnno on the other is not a good mix.

Pennant and Downing maybe could work, Johnno with someone reliable on the other wing would be the same. But not together.

Nigel

Harper is not a dog, I am sure he is admirable but he is not what we need. If we assume either O'Neill or Aliadiere plays wide right we are still left with the problem in central midfield. If Harper is so good why did Reading go down?

We need a player to drive us forward, someone who has pace and can play a pass plus shoot. When I have seen him play I havent thought to myself wish he played for us.

Where to find another Fabregas is like the search for the Holy Grail, we all want one but there are not many about.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 27, 2008 4:26 PM

Mainy wrote...

AV no offence mate but Harper is not and will never be as good as Robbie Mustoe was for us.

It didnt matter who we signed, Mustoe always fought off the competition and proved he was good enough to be in the team week in week out.

Could you honestly see Harper still holding on to his place every week if we were to go back to the days of signing players like TLF, Emerson, Barmby etc because I couldnt.

Posted by: Mainy  | June 27, 2008 6:35 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

Mainy (6.35pm) - I agree about Mustoe, always one of the fittest men in the squad, never seeming to give less than 100%, always ready to pit himself against anyone however mighty or internationally renowned. Never caused any trouble but just quietly got on with his job. He must have been one of our best ever buys in terms of quality and games played over price paid.

He would get into today's team as the ball-winner in midfield, and would end up playing 38 games plus cup outings.

Mind you, in view of his age, he'd now have to be subbed after 70 minutes. (With apologies to all those jokes about the Wales Rugby Team of the 70's playing against today's England team).

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | June 27, 2008 11:27 PM

Neil (USA) wrote...

Mustoe commentated on some of the Euro 2008 group games on ESPN here in the States. I was impressed with his analysis, and his sidekick kept referring to his time at the Boro.

The commentators were also really impressed with Tuncay (especially Andy Gray) and kept mentioning that he was a Boro boy. He is an assistant coach with Boston College's mens' soccer program.

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | June 28, 2008 12:21 AM

Mainy wrote...

Neil (USA)I heard some of the espn comentary but didnt hear Mustoe which was a shame.

You still wont beat the comment on (I think) bbc in turkeys first game where Tuncay tripped over in the box, (ok he dived) and the comentator said 'well he certainly didnt learn THAT at the Riverside'.

Saying that though after Austria's first game they were calling Poggi a thug and started using the Mad Dog tag again. They never once mentioned his improved disciplinary record over the last season.

I wonder which Poggi we are going to get back, the club captain with some self control or the guy who took over Mad Frank's Querdrue's title. I have to admit, a big part of me is hoping for the return of Mad Dog !!

Posted by: Mainy  | June 28, 2008 12:08 PM

Neil (USA) wrote...

Sorry, lads, the last post doesn't read too well...It's Mustoe who is Boston College's assistant coach.

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | June 28, 2008 2:21 PM

Jaguar Boy wrote...

Looks like the 3rd name being banded about - (as Steve H suggests) on FMTTM and other forums is Marvin Emres, 20 yr old dutch right wing / striker from Sparta Rotterdam, voted their fans player of the season last year.

Check him out on youtube if interested.

You know anything about it AV?

**AV writes: Only what is floating about in cyberspace.

Posted by: Jaguar Boy  | June 28, 2008 2:41 PM

chris wrote...

So if we are going for Marvin Emnes does that mean O'Neil is on his way?Or is it that he is going to be played in the centre?We already have cover on the right so seems a bit strange if he is not going or moving into the middle.

Posted by: chris  | June 28, 2008 7:46 PM

BoroMike wrote...

So the players that we have seriously been linked with so far are Digard, Harper, Robinson, Kaboul, Bullard and Marvin Emnes.

Southgate says there wil be three new signings before pre-season and my guess is that it will be Digard, Harper and Marvin Emnes.

However, after he has completed a deal for them I presume he will go for Kaboul as a replacement for any injuries in defence and I also think he will eventually go for a keeper, possibly Robinson or Carsson.

If there is any money left in the bank it looks as if he still likes the look of James Beatie.. not too sure about that one though!

Posted by: BoroMike  | June 28, 2008 9:57 PM

chris wrote...

Ok i know i am mad...but why not...Downing and Tuncay in the middle.... Johnson on the left and Emnes on the right.

This would mean we had the distribution and speed...plus gives Johnson a slot and provides Alves with the bullets. But that does not solve the -2 goals we lose to start with the keepers we have and will do Downing no favors in the England set up although I do think he would do a great job....mmmmm

Posted by: chris  | June 29, 2008 12:52 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Chris

If we are going to sign the right winger Martin Emnes (definitely someone who slipped under my radar) then I agree that O'Neil's position is looking in doubt.

Though, I never thought right wing was his position anyway and a switch inside as a box-to-box midfielder to central midfield is his better position - which is also presumably where Harper is penciled in at.

But if the initial reviews of Emnes are anything to go by then he'll definitely improve us on the right.

So given the prospective signings, I'm now leaning in terms of formation to 4-1-4-1.

TBA (Turnbull/Jones)

Young (McMahon)
Wheater (Riggot/Hines)
Huth (Pogi/Bates)
Pogi (Taylor/Grounds)

Digard (Bullard? Anybody Hard?)

Emnes (Johnson/Ali)
Tuncay (Arca?)
Harper (O'Neil/Cattemole?)
Downing (Johnson)

Alves (Mido/Ali)

As a squad it at least gives us more options and a much better bench than we've had for a while.

Though Southgate may yet go for bog-standard 4-4-2, which would definitely leave a few players futures in doubt as they may not even be guaranteed a place on the bench.

So it may well be time up for Boateng, Cattemole, Arca and O'Neil once they see Gareth's first choice team.

Finally, regarding the general recruitment policy it looks like Southgate (inspired by Lamb) is more in the Wenger school of bringing in promising young talent than let's say Keegan's 'blow the budget on an over-hyped big name signing' - which I think is the correct philiosophy for a club our size, and this season could well turn out to be quite sucessful.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 29, 2008 9:42 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Werdermouth

You beat me to it. I tried to post several times with no success due to internet problems.

If we get the three players that are being bandied about then Cat, Boat and Arca do not have certain futures. O'Neill is a question mark but if he stays he may move inside. Shawky may well stay because he hasnt really contributed yet and is a mate of the Sphinx.

On to another topic.

I see Platini appears to be in favour of a move for Ronaldo to Real. The warning bells are starting to ring, we have a club in Real who are heavily in debt trying to buy (through hints.,winks, open statements of intent and telling Ronaldo he has to engineer a move) from an English club in debt and that is OK.

On the other hand he makes unveiled threats about English clubs being brought to heel because of debt.

I always thought of Platini as a man with a mission but seeing him sat smugly at the matches this year I am starting to see a younger Sepp Blatter.

Make no mistake, whilst we all smirk at ManU's discomfort Platini is looking increasingly an anglophobe. His actions wont just affect the big four, it will cascade down to our level.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 29, 2008 8:14 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

On a training course with a Derby colleague and his description of Platini is not flattering, the only caveat is what he described him as is not fit to post and what is more it is useful.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 30, 2008 10:15 AM

Nigel wrote...

Ian, I don't know how good Harper is or Digard for that matter, I do know that Harper scored six league goals last season, so he would be an improvement on what we had.

I also know that Reading went down because you need 11 premiership players in your team not just one, just as when Boro went down despite having Ravenelli & Juninho in the team.

This is Boro, we aren't going to sign a new Roy Keane or a new Vierra and if we were lucky enough to do so he would be a young unknown player and several posters would no doubt post 'what are we signing some unknown kid from xxx for?'!!

Posted by: Nigel  | June 30, 2008 11:04 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Ian

From Boronoia to Anglophobia - seemlessly executed!

For the record I think Platini is more concerned about too many foreigners in the English game, in terms of ownership and players, rather than being anti-English - at least Spain are still able to put out a decent national team and overcome my over-achieving german hosts

Back to Boro:

I keep forgetting about Shawky, he's certainly the invisible man when team selection comes around - I guess he'll be the natural understudy for Digard now.

The O'Neil situation still puzzles me - if he's staying there shouldn't be a need to buy Harper.

But I think Boro are going to struggle to recoup their £6m on him as despite early promise he failed to chip in with any goals - and given that Harper is priced at only £3.5m with six goals in a team that often struggled to score, then he looks better value.

Perhaps Harper is a red herring and the three players coming in are Digard, Emnes and a hopefully a keeper (we're still being linked with Robinson!)

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 30, 2008 11:06 AM

Neil (USA) wrote...

Mainy, Mustoe only commentated on the "lesser games". Andy Gray and Adrian Healey did all the plum first round games on ESPN and ALL of the second round games.

One thing I'll say about American TV is that there is NO Boronoia. ESPN / ABC commentators mentioned the Boro favorably several times while discussing Pogatetz and Tuncay.

Also, commentators and pundits for Fox Soccer Channel positively gushed over Southgate last season, who in their mind had slowly but surely transformed McClaren's aging defensive-minded squad into a younger side that held promise (obviously in a lot of the games the commentators emphasized that the Boro had promise, but weren't necessarily delivering).

Hope we can make progress on our transfer targets soon. I'd still like to see a keeper added. Maybe GS is going to really let Jones and turnbull fight it out...maybe he'll give them until January to show everyone what they can do.

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | June 30, 2008 12:15 PM

tim from sa wrote...

All the rumours lead to Digard and Harper both the same. The Dutchman sounds intresting as he can also be a backup striker which is good cover and plays rightside. I hope we dont take all season trying to find the best positions for these chaps.

Again overseas players who will take time to settle at least Harper played in the prem last season if he does half as good as Young did then he will do. If all these chaps come then its goodbye to the Boat and maybe Arca.

Still think all this will be no good without a keeper if what we have is so good why did we revert stright back to Mark as soon as he was available.

Posted by: tim from sa  | June 30, 2008 12:32 PM

dave wrote...

These coaching badges and rules to manage in the Premier League are a waste of time if they are not going to be inforced.

At least with Ince he spent a couple of seasons learning his trade in the lower leagues which I feel should be encouraged more.

Will be interesting to see how Ince, Mogga and Southgate do this season. Big season for Southgate and he will be compared to them two. So important he has a good season. It is his team now and so no excuses

Posted by: dave  | July 1, 2008 12:57 PM

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