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Ronaldo Stars in Theatre of Hate

Posted by on June 7, 2008 9:41 AM | 

THERE WAS a smug shot of Christiano Ronaldo on my desk yesterday (I was writing a little colour piece for the paper about the Euros being more enjoyable without England) when a passing colleague not normally given to outbursts of vitriol leant over and pointed at Diveinho and snarled: "I hope he gets his bloody legs broken... both of them!"

That may not be the spirit of touchy-feely pan-European fraternity through football that UEFA are hoping that the European Championships might promote but it seems a fair reflection of at least one dark aspect of public opinion that these set piece events can trigger. There is a lot of sublimated anger out there and with or without England, for some, it will be a theatre of hate.

Scientists have long speculated about the presence of anti-matter, a negative force equal and opposite to the more measurable building blocks of the universe. Pah! Hey, boffins, get your instruments and start work on the average football crowd. For the next three weeks there will an upsurge in tangible social and emotional forces as usually placid individuals declare themselves irrationally and passionately anti-German, anti-French, anti-Spanish and especially - because of the gravititional pull of the sulky stepover show-pony - anti-Portuguese. My colleague will not be the only one hoping to see Ronaldo snapped in half, and now, after his shameless spell of brazen flirting with Real Madrid, some of them will be Man United fans.

A survey out this week suggested the English will be supporting Portugal and Spain in the tournament which strikes me as bad science. Who did they ask? Band-wagon jumpers and playground glory hunters in the Home Counties? As the BBC adverts suggest, little Scousers will support Torres, Surrey schoolkids will back their local lad Ronaldo and Arsenal and Cheslea fans will probably thrown their weight behind France - but just as many real supporters will be cheering on the opposition to those teams as a direct and conscious act of anti-support.

It is a media and marketing myth that the entire watching audience is a single entity that lines up behind whoever the spin-machine decides is the story. Just because Ronaldo is a G14 marketing man's wet dream doesn't mean we can be manipulated into some flimsy support for them because it suits a corporate branding strategy. There is nothing more infuriating than to be told by an employee of Rupert Murdoch that "the whole nation is behind XXXX tonight" just because their continued participation can help them sell more dishes, more papers, more advertising space and condemn us to another round of sensational sizzling superlatives.

The media always call this wrong. Real fans with a partisan commitment to their own team do not switch allegience to another side so cheaply. Sorry but I won't be backing Man U or Chelsea or Liverpool in the Champions League. I want them to lose. I want them to get thrashed, have three sent off and another six heavily injured. I want their plane to break down on the way home so they sit on the runway for six sleepless hours waiting in the cold and I want them to get battered in the next domestic game because of they are fatigued. I hate the Big Four and see no benefit for Boro in their winning a single game ever, even in training.

And the same logic applies in international tournaments. I will not be dragooned into supporting some remote national entity just because their team includes a member of the elite marketing team of prima donna pin-ups central to an structurally distorted money making enterprise rigged against my own side and who sell fizzy drinks, razors and god knows what else over-priced tat.
Far from the gullible nation lining up behind Ronaldo, Torres and Anelka most and partisan supporters will line up against them. And do it vocally. It is healthy.

Of course, there is another darker dimension that is also waiting to be manipulated. While fans proxy passion will be partly channelled based on individuals there is also an insidious under-current of barely disguised xenophobia. Let's be honest here, the English don't like a lot of other countries, especially when they have the audacity to overtly display their own nationality through something like football. And even less so when they do well at it.

The English view the rest of the world through a particularly limited lens of history when it comes to football. It is a case of 1966 And All That. Most English supporters, when they are not screaming against individual hate figures will be anti-supporting entire nations, principally those playing against Germany. Anti-support of Germany is practically a national duty, just as in chilly Jockoland it is a badge of civic pride to oppose England at every turn. The nightmare scenario for such Little Englanders will be a Germany-Portugal final.

Not for me though. I grew up in Germany - I first started going to watch football regularly at the mighty Arminia Bielefeld - and love the place. Germany has a brilliant football history and a lively fan culture that revolves around standing, singing and drinking plus low prices and superb stadiums designed with the spectator in mind. What's not to like? The war? We've fought wars against everyone bar Portugal so if you are thinking like that you may as well get your Ronaldo replica shirt on now. The main reason the English hate the Germans is because with their arrogance they remind us of ourselves. I always back Germany in tournaments, much to the annoyance of the rest of the office. They hate it when I get my huge post-ironic "Teesside Krauts" banner out.

Meanwhile, as an illustration that it is not just in England that football is viewed through a patriotic prism with echoes of the war. There was a juicy cross-border tabloid spat in the build-up to the big grudge match between d Germany as a robust Polish tabloid sparked a storm with a neat bit of photo-shopping that showed their manager holding the blood-soaked severed heads of their neighbours' manager Joachim Lowe and captain Michael Ballack. Fleet Street's finest will be kicking themselves that they hadn't thought of that one.

There have been a lot of formal apologies flying around but Poland midfielder Jacek Krzynowek, who plays for Wolfsburg in the Bundesliga, said the newspaper stories were just: "Part of the psychological war, and it didn't start yesterday or the day before, but a long time ago."

You half expect famous Polish hotelier Jan Cleesowitcz to goose-step through the opening ceremony urging spectators not to mention the war. It is not just in England that sport is reflected throug the prism of military history. And some of the other potential fixtures have far more edge than anything we can imagine too.

The English have a rivalry with German because "they bombed our nana's chippie" but we were not invaded, brutally repressed under the iron heel of the Nazi jackboot and we certainly didn't have millions of innocent men, women and children slaughtered or marched off to gas chambers. The Dutch, Czechs, French, Austrians and Russians don't like them much either.

Enjoy the football. Enjoy the absence of England and the media hysteria and over-hyped expectations. Cheer on Pogatetz and Tuncay. Ignore sycophantic commentators telling you to fawn over the usual suspects. Don't get too angry when my lads win. Cheers, I'm off to buy 240 cans of German lager, a Scorpions compilation and a pile of bratwurst.

Comments (83)

steve h wrote...

I have to admit I'm watching it a lot more laid back this year. There's not as much tension when England aren't there.

I will definitely be supporting every team that plays against Germany. I've suffered too much over the years. For me it's like working with Geordies when Newcastle beat Boro.

Your daft fiver on Germany is very daft. They're favourites! You won't win much. They're overrated in my opinion. They have an easy draw to start with, but they won't be able to match the likes of Italy,France, Holland or Portugal in the latter stages.

My daft tenner is on Switzerland at 20/1. They qualified for the knockout stages at the last world cup, going out on penalties. With home advantage they look worth a punt as an outsider. At least it's a bit of interest. Obviously not the same as watching England though.

Players to watch out for from the Bundesliga...

Rakitic, Croatia. He came on as a sub against England at Wembley. He's a good young attacking midfielder with an eye for goal.

Gomez, Germany. This guy is gonna be world class. I expect him to move from Stuttgart to Bayern and eventually on to Real or Barcelona.

Ribery, France. Not a newcomer but he was in Zidane's shadow in the past. He could become the star of tournament.

And now....COME ON SWITZERLAND!

**AV writes: What's the media reaction been there to the Polish tabloid offensive?

Posted by: steve h  | June 7, 2008 1:04 PM

Aberdeen Brian wrote...

Anybody who gets up the noses of the Froggies gets my vote - come on Germany!

Besides, apart from reflecting our own arrogance as you pointed out, the reason we like to beat them is that if you beat a German team you know you are beating a very good team, with all the kudos that comes with it.

Posted by: Aberdeen Brian  | June 7, 2008 2:43 PM

steve h wrote...

The media here made a big issue of this Polish newspaper thing. It was all over, telly ,radio, papers. The German equivalent of The Sun, Bild Zeitung, had a big article on the front page. But the guy who owns Bild also runs a Polish paper that was attacking the Germans. Then Bild reacted to that and so on. It's all just to sell papers.

I see my tenner was the kiss of death for Switzerland. Their best player is out for the tournament. Maybe I should have a fiver on Germany after all...

Posted by: steve h  | June 7, 2008 10:05 PM

Dekka wrote...

Tuncay was a different player from the one at Boro. I was a bit embarrassed for his dive "he didn't learn that at the Riverside", stupid little bits of kicking the ball away, shirt tugging. The only thing he did I recognised as typical Boro was the air shot.

If Turkey play like that again we wont get to support him beyond the group stage and I cant see Austria getting through so Poggi will be home early too.

I'm not supporting or hating anyone really. Just sparking up the barbie and enjoying it.

Posted by: Dekka  | June 7, 2008 10:30 PM

John Powls wrote...

As Dekka says, Tunny wasn't his usual Boro self - even the fluffed shot, if it had come off, would have had echoes of the Goal of the Month winner at Derby.

But Turkey were very Boro like - though they couldn't wear the white chest band their insipid display - even down to the 'they only came to swap shirts' (if you saw the post match interviews) to quote Gate - was sadly reminiscent of some of what we turned out last season.

Wonder what Pogo will deliver today.

I also hoped that Gate wasn't watching 'cos you could feel the bid for Blades reject and proto-Turk Colin Richards forming the longer the game went on.

Adding to the 'quality' of the Theatre of Hate must be the marauding hordes of players' agents that the commentators keep referring to.

A bit like a perverse Greek chorus singing from inside their impervious money bubble floating over proceedings.

Now, wash your hands, please!

Posted by: John Powls  | June 8, 2008 3:37 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

Germany? Have a word son.

**AV writes: Weltpokal?

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | June 8, 2008 10:09 PM

Ken wrote...

It is interesting to note that Germany has an advantage over many other teams - I wouldn't call it an "unfair" advantage, because they have paid billions in costs for this advantage.

What am I talking about ?

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia broke up into two smaller countries, Czech Republic and Slovakia. Yugoslavia broke up into Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia-Heregovinia. The UK has voluntarily broken itself into England, Scotland, Wales and North Island (of course, long prior).

But Germany went in the other direction, uniting West Germany and East Germany (at great financial cost), and as a side benefit, getting to field a united Germany team at Euro, World Cup and Olympics.

**AV writes: England has an unfair advantage too - as a legacy of Empire we can pick people whose parents and gran-parents were born in the former colonies in Africa, the West Indies and beyond. Although it doesn't seem to be helping that much.

Posted by: Ken  | June 9, 2008 1:59 AM

Never Happy wrote...

The BBCs who will you support? Answer: no-one.

As you have posted AV it more of who will you hate, normally Germany, however I thought they played really well last night and like the style of football that they play.

Obviusly any team that Ronaldho plays for have to be hated and I have never been keen on the French.

Its not an easy decision to make.

TB may know more on this subject, but is was mentioned last night that Poland were using a fitness programme designed for NASA astronauts. Boro are ahead of them though as they have had Mido on a programme designed for Stagecoach bus drivers for months!

Oh sod it I think I'll hate the French!

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 9, 2008 9:15 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

Well, I've gone Boro mad and put a daft fiver on Turkey to win at 40/1, £1 on Tuncay to be top scorer at 66/1 and £1 on Austria to top their group at 14./1.

That was before the opening results, before you ask.

With the lass's help, I also have further daft pounds on Croatia, Switzerland, France and Spain.

Come on Croatia I think then!

As for the tournament itself - it hasn't exactly started with a bang...

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 9, 2008 9:47 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

It as all a bit like visiting relatives, you know you should be interested in little Tommy's exploits in the school football team and that Lucy has just lost her first milk tooth but somehow your heart isnt in it.

I have taken to hiding away in the spare room (which coveniently has the same channels as the main TV - for the kids and their friends you understand - and the computer where I compose many a post) and flicking between football, highlights of the cricket and fishing programmes plus a quick desultory look at BBC News 24 on the half hour.

Each match seems to be a case of who do I least want to win and is there anyone there with a Boro interest - at least Pogo showed his mad dog instincts.

I even looked at some photos on the computer from our trip to Egypt, at least they reminded me of the Boro with a big, motionless Egyptian with an enigmatic smile - was the Sphinx modelled on Mido?

Even the tins of beer dont seem the same.

Watched Skysports news this morning for the journalist slot and smirked at the Jeff Powell article saying that it was a silver lining that we arent there sparing Europe from our football hooligans. Foolishly he wrote it before the football and hostilities between fans started.

As AV will only too willingly testify hooliganism isnt just the English - the police in Italy do a grand job. Then of course we had the great Rangers fans before the Uefa cup final suddenly becoming British after the troubles in Manchester. We have our hooligan elements but we are not alone in that.

Still dont know who to support, dont know if I care. Sorry to be a little Englander, well maybe little is being economical with the truth.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 9, 2008 11:32 AM

Nigel wrote...

Sport, football in particular has in modern western society, well in Europe anyway, replaced war! Hence the 'hatred' of other countries inevitably has a historical context.

If there is anger and frustration to be vented then far better to do it by shouting and screaming at the telly, rather than standing on the banks of the Somme!

Not only do we hate Germany because they remind us of us but because they do 'us' better than we do. Actually lets face it most of us are secret admirers of the German football team.

However there is no chance of them being supported in my house, my son and I sat down and discussed the issue and after a thorough sceintific evaluation we plumped to support Turkey ahead of Austria on the basis that as much as we'd love to see Poggy lift the trophy the chance of that happening is the same as Boro being prem. champions next year. But despite an initial defeat Turkey may make the knockout rounds.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 9, 2008 12:13 PM

jiffy wrote...

I am not watching it.

The European teams are usually the boring lot in World Cups so having 16 of them there in this competition is way too many. Europe doesnt have that much quality.

Four results so far and had I been in a result prediction sweep I would almost certainly have 4 spot-on predictions so far.

Starts to get more difficult today with a group where there are three potential finalists and another where there are three also-rans.

One noticeable thing though from the squad lineups before the tournament started was how few Premiership players there are in the competition. Rather blows the myth of the Pl being so brilliant when no side seems to be able to put out more than three players.

Now had it been the African Nations Cup then it seems like every country has half its squad based over here - albeit not all in the top flight.

Posted by: jiffy  | June 9, 2008 1:24 PM

Paul Moore wrote...

I'm with you in lots of ways - I actually like Germany - they remind me of us in many ways! Though I will be supporting Holland because I lived there and they are a fantastic nation. Followed by Turkey and Austria of course!

But if Germany are playing Portugal, sorry but it's Germany for me too!

Posted by: Paul Moore  | June 9, 2008 1:29 PM

dek (one k, no a) wrote...

Hi Anthony.

Ronaldo's been in two Bond films.

Dive another day, and Live and let Dive.

Posted by: dek (one k, no a)  | June 9, 2008 1:41 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

Back to Boro, I see the bbc gossip column reckons we are 'closing in on £3m Michael Bradley' as per The Mirror.

I wonder if this is based on anything new or just regurgitation of the ongoing non-story.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 9, 2008 1:54 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

Despite the umbrella wielding Ex ruining our collected Euro 2008 experience, I also have the luxury of supporting my adopted country, having now been living in Bremen in northern Germany for nearly 4 years now.

It certainly brings more atmosphere to the tournament if everyone around you are flying flags on their cars and genuinely excited about the prospect of winning it.

OK some of you may well have been pinning your hopes on a Austro-Turkish Boro inspired journey but I’ve got to admire the way my German hosts go about their footballing business.

In a short time they’ve managed to build a new team that is capable of winning tournaments, whereas England have managed to turn a group of the so called ´golden generation´ of players into a team (sorry I meant a collection of massaged egos) of underachieving no-hopers.

Some people call this arrogance but the Germans know how to win – they like winning and are proud to admit it – let’s face it, it’s no accident that they are good at penalties.

Oh in case any of you were wondering – yes they do have a sense of humour and no they don’t remember 1966 as most of them weren’t even born then.

So until Capello earns his £6 million I’m with AV and the Bratwurst along with a few bottles of the locally brewed Becks…

Viel Glück!

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 9, 2008 2:47 PM

Nigel wrote...

dek - which is one more than Beckam who to date has only starred in one bond film 'Goldenballs'

Posted by: Nigel  | June 9, 2008 2:54 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Jiffy - If you think its boring now wait until Platini gets his way and the competition is extended in 2012.

Just read the officail match report on the USA v Argentina game and Bradley played 45 mins but got no mention in the report.

It can be read @ http://www.ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_6684675.html

And with reporting like that shown below on Boro's favorite Argie its worth a read

Javier Mascherano became the second player to be ejected when he tackled Landon Donovan with his spikes up in the 86th minute, earning him his second caution.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 9, 2008 3:52 PM

steve h wrote...

I've enjoyed the first few games. They are usually more boring to start with.

The Premiership has the second most players there behind Germany. I think it was about 51 for the Bundesliga and 43 for the Premiership. Obviously if England had been there it would have been many more.

Germany don't just get stronger through players from former East Germany. They have loads of "foreigners". They have 5 forwards in the squad, two Poles, a Brazilian, a Spaniard and one from Switzerland.

Posted by: steve h  | June 9, 2008 4:16 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

I haven't much enjoyed the Euros so far, but maybe the competition will begin in earnest with Holland v Italy in a couple of minutes. Come on the Dutch, plucky little devils.....

I have put a couple of quid on Italy (and a couple of other teams, as I like to spread the ill fortune) and have drawn Holland in the works sweep, so it won't be disasrous either way. Somehow it really doesn't seem all that serious, does it?

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | June 9, 2008 7:47 PM

jc wrote...

Boro should be trying to buy Engelaar - big presence in midfield, good feet, excellent passer - not the utterly anonymous Bradley.

Posted by: jc  | June 9, 2008 9:17 PM

Danny wrote...

I'd have to definately agree with 'jc' that Boro should have a passing interest at Orlando Engelaar.

He is a big unit at 6' 6" tall and would not be easy to shake off the ball and would terrify opposition players with his height and strength. Someone in the mould of Patrick Viera that would be a good addition to a weak Boro central midfield. I've seen a good bit of Eredivisie and he is a quality player.

En-gel-aar, En-gel-aar, En-gel-aar.

Posted by: Danny  | June 10, 2008 5:54 AM

Andy, the Hague wrote...

As a bit of a non sequitur, did anybody see the in-depth interview given to Gary Lineker by the new England Manager, in which Capello expressed his admiration for one Stewart Downing. Who?

And did anyone notice the perfunctory 'harumph' with which Old Big Ears dismissed the Italian's views and singulary failed to further discuss? Obviously not the kind of signal he wanted his parabolic lugs to receive...

And isn't it strange how the BBC website makes no mention of this (blatantly misguided) opinion? Had his comments been directed at Joe Cole, Rooney or almost any other England squad member, I'm fairly sure it would have been trumpeted in the Sport section. Or is this just another dose of Boronoia of my behalf?

Posted by: Andy, the Hague  | June 10, 2008 8:13 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Andy

You are correct on both counts, if Downing was from a 'favoured' club the response would have been different.

It is also another dose of Boronoia but that doesnt make the Boronoia less justified. I may be be frightened of crocodiles and as there are not many around Derby it is not a reasonable fear. If I lived in the wilds in the north of Australia that would be a reasonable fear. The fact we are regularly given short thrift by the media makes you Boronoia entirly understandable.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 10, 2008 12:10 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

On the Downing subject, bbc gossip columnn linking him with a £12m move to Liverpool again...

That would be a disaster. Silly money (20m+) we have to accept, but anything less, no way.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 10, 2008 12:33 PM

Nigel wrote...

So the 'paper' Sports Gazette is dead, long live the 'electronic' version!

It's an inevitable sign of the times that there is no longer demand for the Sports Gazette. For years after I moved away from Teesside my Dad would send me the sports every week. I stopped a few seasons ago when the internet took off. Now I tell my dad the Boro news before he has chance to read it in The Gazette.

I've still got a scrap album of cuttings from the sports from the 1974 season when Jack Charlton was king!

**AV writes: Yes, we have been battling against the tide for a few years now. It is sad really, the Sports was an important part of the cultural landscape in the days before rolling 24 hour sports news, multi-media live coverage and kick-off times plucked out of the air.

Posted by: Nigel  | June 10, 2008 2:50 PM

steve h wrote...

According to the german media, Schalke have offered 6 million Euros for Engelaar, but his club want 8 million for him.

There could be something in this as the new Schalke trainer was Engelaar's trainer last season.

Posted by: steve h  | June 10, 2008 6:42 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

It was a Saturday ritual, queuing for the sports at the paper shop next to the Coronation. Woe betide you if you were late and they were sold out.

Used to walk back from the match and if we won pick it up on the way home. During our first visit to the old third division I used to post it to my brother at his next port of call - he was an engineer aboard Cunard cruise ships. I studied at Leeds and could get the paper just before I caught the train to Darlo and onwards., they were also regularly forwarded to myself.

Couldn't bear to buy it if we lost, the habits developed then stick with me, find it almost impossible to watch MOTD if we lose.

One of the problems was the time constraint, no spell check in those days but the masterpiece did not belong to the Gazette, it was the Coventry version brought into lectures by a friend. This informed us that Stevenson, playing for Coventry reserves against Liverpool, dribbled round the keeper and scored with a well placed sh*t in the corner of the net. One of the beauties of the written word is that it leaves you to paint your own picture.

Nigel

The copies of the articles from the 1960's sojourn in the third division were kept for many years by my mum but have since been lost following family deaths, moves and clear outs. Nostalgia aint what it used to be.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 10, 2008 8:34 PM

John Powls wrote...

Just to add to the Boronoia - call me Mr. Over-sensitive but it also seemed to me that whenever Tuncay or, particularly, Pogo got mentioned in their games and linked to Boro the sort of sneer you can hear seeped into commentators and pundits voices.

It's definitely worse on the BBC than on ITV.

But then, it's only when you see the Beeb try to present live football nowadays that you realise the damage done to them by having so much of it elsewhere.

They just don't know how to do it well any more. The commentating is often as irritating as it is inaccurate with Motty so over the hill and relying on his little 'lovers' tiffs' with our favourite, Lawro.

And, as for Lineker and his posse (a word which passed from the lexicon of sexy broadcasting a decade ago and so is highly appropriate) are just an embarrassment.

When you think about it, it's no wonder Wrighty resigned.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 11, 2008 8:52 AM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

Re Capello's positive comments on Stewy Downing.

I wonder how "jump on the slagging bandwagon" David Platt feels these days. His criticism of Downing during a recent friendly game showed him to be a shallow individual.

Now that one of the top coaches in the world has endorsed Stewy's contribution (instead of his ex-club manager) Platt will be at home trying desperately to scrub the egg off his face.

Who will be his next target? David Wheater?

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | June 11, 2008 9:39 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Looks like Southgate is gonna have a pop at the 21 yr old Didier Digard midfielder from PSG.

www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/08/06/11/manual_082055.html&TEAMHD=soccer

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 11, 2008 10:06 AM

Jarkko wrote...

It always hurts if a tradition is gone. I am sorry to see the 'paper' Sports Gazette dead.

I saw my first Boro match live as a 20 year old student in 1980. I came over from Finland to see my three pen-pals - all Boro supporters.

My dear friend Austin Marsay posted the Sports Gazette to me in Finland once a week (with some other newspaper cuttings) - for well over 15 years right up till his death. How I remember waiting for the post to arrive around Thursday or Friday afternoon.

After his death I continued the habbit of buying the paper the first thing when ever I visited the region. My lastest Sports Gazette is now two years old as I still live in my home land of Finland.

Of course the times have changed. I know I can share the gossip and news every day through internet - like this block, mfc.co.uk/Boroworld and the BBC.

I understand your decicion but feel sad. It's like loosing a distant relative you have spent a lot of time with in your youth ...

Posted by: Jarkko  | June 11, 2008 10:56 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

From the Guardian's Fiver yesterday:

'THE RUMOUR MILL

Stewart Downing and Nicklas Bendtner keep sticking their heads into the dreams of Liverpool fans and turning them into nightmares'

Obviously they hadn't heard Capello's interview either.

And Ian - like yourself, I can't watch MOTD when we lose either.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 11, 2008 11:03 AM

Never Happy wrote...

It looks like Liverpool's tactic of courting Barry through the media and whilst on England duty is going to work.

Will they next target be Stewy? At least St Stephen of Bootle will not be able to tap him up on England duty.

No doubt if Stewy left and became a Liverpool regular, all those scribes who currently slag him off will suddenly become fans and put it down to improved performances after joining the scousers.

Hopefully he will stay at the Boro and by moving him in to central midfield, allowing Jinky to play outside him will become an even better player.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 11, 2008 11:24 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I don't know much about Digard, however from the stats he is not the attcking midfielder most of us are hoping Boro can sign

1999–2007 Le Havre 72 games 3 goals
2007 Paris Saint-Germain 15 games 0 goals

Wikipedia say he is 21, was he in the Le Harve first team at 13 years of age?

C'Mon Boro!

**AV writes: He is not an attacking midfielder. He is a holding man, a destroyer, or "the new Vieira" in tabloidese.

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 11, 2008 12:16 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Boro Phil

I have a scouser colleague who actually rates Downing.

When they were after Zenden he said he would be great because they needed some width, I told him he would be a loss but he was not the solution to their problems just like when the needed a left back and bought Ziege. Zenden wouldnt stay on his wing to the same extent as Ziege couldnt mark.

I said Downing was the man for width. Since then he has actually watched what Downing does rather than listen to the sneers based on the fact he isnt a 'chosen' one. Now he is a huge fan and he would love him on board. Let us hope he stays in the minority.

Clearly Capello is not fluent in English so maybe Lineker caught him on the hop. The likelihood is he is more fluent in football than Platt and co hence has fewer preconceptions.

And let me give a word of praise for Shearer, to his credit he does stick up for us and Stewie on occasions.

Pat

Platt wont be at home scrubbing egg from his face, he is more likely to be airbrushing Capellos comments from the clip. As the saying goes 'every time he opens his mouth some fool speaks'. Or as my dad used to say 'cant educate Pork'.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 11, 2008 12:36 PM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

From a 'reliable source', Digard is in Middlesbrough right now, having a medical. I hope AV is 100% about him being a 'holding man' as his goal scoring record is woeful, 4 goals from 144 starts for club and country (U18/U21).

From a French website (written in English), assessing the best of French young talent :-

"Digard is the classic pure defensive midfielder who has good passing ability, although his pace at times may be his downfall. He can’t score to save his life and is really limited offensively. But his tackling is impressive. He’s very mature..."

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | June 11, 2008 12:59 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - If Boro sign Digard this would surely mean that the Boat would move to pastures new.

It would possibly also mean that GSs comments on Shawky playing more 'ring hollow'

Unless he planned on playing a 4 - 2 - 3 - 2 formation

Turnbull New Keeper?
Young
Wheater
Huth or Pogi
Pogi or Taylor
Shawky
Digard
O'Neill Alliadiere Jinky or New RM
Arca or New CM
Downing
Tuncay
Alves

C'mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 11, 2008 1:00 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Okay Digard is a holding midfielder , a Viera / Destroyer but we NEED an attacking midfielder to replace and improve on Rockemback and Mendietta's departures.

This area is key although I still feel we are a striker short as Mido backing up Alves, Aliadierre and Tuncay may not be enough as he was so out of form and fitness last season that I dont believe he has the commitment to Boro to sort himself out.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 11, 2008 1:20 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Pat

"Digard is the classic pure defensive midfielder who has good passing ability, although his pace at times may be his downfall. He can’t score to save his life and is really limited offensively. But his tackling is impressive. He’s very mature..."

We have been waiting for a central midfield box to box player with pace who can pass and shoot. By the look of your commendable research Diggard appears to be a Boat who can pass. The lack of pace is a concern.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 11, 2008 1:51 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

Well, Digard sounds promising, but I'm reserving judgement until I can get home tonight and check him out on FM.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 11, 2008 2:33 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Hopefully after the Holland 'offside goal' on Monday Boro will be allowed to play my team.

Slight drawback that we will have 12 players.

Ah well I'll take me socks off and count with my fingers and toes before I post another team

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 11, 2008 2:38 PM

John Powls wrote...

Pat and Ian

Dig 'Ard by name and nature, eh!

The lack of pace is a real problem, as you say. He sounds like a Huddlestone type and I wasn't keen on him either for the same reason but at least he'd notched a couple.

Never Happy

I agree the position with The Shawkster is puzzling.

On formations I expect Gate is paying particlar attention to the Euros this Summer as well as what he'll have taken from the Prem and other major leagues last term.

He has often said that he wants to try a new way. There are a number of variants on show but 4-4-2 which has been our only option has dropped out of favour.

The more successful seem to be going with either 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1. Holland made 4-3-2-1 look good the other night against Italy and Real Madrid dominated La Liga with it.

In that formation for Boro you could see a holding pair of Dig 'Ard and The Shawkster as a latterday eqivalent of Viera and Makelele.

It then means you have to put the pace into the front 4.

So, a narrow three with Stewie (Johnno to back him up) on the left, a new attacking, pacy, creative midfielder (O'Neil or Tunny to back him up) in the centre, and O'Neil (or a replacement, if he goes, with Tunny and Aliadiere to back him up) on the right.

A narrow three also starts to play into my agenda of having Stewie and O'Neil play more inside and addresses the fact that Alves can't head a ball to save his life because the service would be less frequently from crosses for headers and more the low, fast crosses into the 'corridor of uncertainty'.

It does mean that, along with Stewie the other two midfielders have to get goals. So, O'Neil has to find his shooting boots and the next new midfielder has to have that in his locker too.

Alves up front (with Mido, Aliadiere etc) to back him up.

So, 4-2-3-1 could work but it still worries me that we may be buying someone wih no pace, seemingly (to quote Gate) because, unlike some others we're interested in, his club are prepared to let him go.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 11, 2008 2:47 PM

Never Happy wrote...

JP - A lack of pace may not be a problem if he is bought to play a purely holding role.

Makelele is deemed by many to be one of the best holding midfielders and he is hardly Billy Whizz!

As long as he can win the ball and pass it to a red shirt he will be one up on the Boat.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 11, 2008 3:32 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Agree with John about Alves, he seems to work best off the last defender's shoulder through the middle. Getting across the defender to attack the cross isn't his style.

Stewie is probably our best passer and does have pace and the ability to shoot with either foot so can certainly come inside. If we do have two holding players who can shield the back four and pass to red shirts it will allow the full backs to come forward and we could use Tuncay and Aliadiere as part of the mobile three with Downing.

I have based the above on the assumption that O'Neill will leave and working on what we have available. New players will obviously change the picture.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 11, 2008 4:29 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

I've not seen anything of Digard but if he can tackle and pass then I like the suggestion of partnering him with Shawky and playing a 4-2-3-1 formation.

The three for me would be Downing, Tuncay and Ali with Alves up front - That could gives us a fluid attack with a solid base.

When you think about it we wouldn't seem to need too many players to come in if we played this formation - and although we've lost Rocky and technically Mendy and probably Boateng, we still have Mido, O'Neil, Arca, Johnston and Cattemole.

OK, other than Johnston I wouldn't lose too much sleep if we replaced any of the others. Of course I'm still waiting for a new keeper to arrive and I'd be happier if we got Sidwell to partner the 'new Viera'

But on the whole I think there is potential in the squad without the need to throw a lot of money around - what's important is getting a passing team to gel in the right formation during pre-season.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | June 11, 2008 4:42 PM

John Powls wrote...

Just another add that I forgot yesterday.

In either of the two formations width from full backs venturing forward is good. This will play exactly into Luke Young's strengths but Andrew Taylor may not be ready for that yet and that isn't Pogo's forte.

So, if we have to spend less elsewhere, as some are suggesting, what about a Riise or Shorey type left back?

And please, Gate, don't forget a new goalie in all this.

My Boronoia with the Beeb took another turn yesterday evening with the Turkey game.

Tuncay was much improved (and, interestingly, playing a central attacking midfield role) and played an excellent first time pass for the winning goal.

Although the pass was praised never, either in live commentary or in replay or in the studio discussion, was the name of the passer mentioned.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 12, 2008 7:48 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

I think Shorey would be a good signing, based purely on reputation rather than actually having seen much of him, but I don't think left back is a priority for Gareth by the sounds of it.

I loved the look of exasperation on Nihat's face last night when Tuncay messed up the cross-shot last night. At least he doesn't save those moments for Boro! He definitely had more impact in a central position though.

Al-Habsi from Bolton might be a good signing now Jaaskelainen has signed a new contract.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 12, 2008 9:38 AM

Never Happy wrote...

On the few times I have seen Shorey he looks short on pace.

Then again I was not to impressed when we signed Luke Young and he ended up been a fantastic signing.

AV - How accurate are the Digard having a medical at Rockcliffe rumours?

C'Mon Boro!

**AV writes: They are not rumours. Digard has been at Hurworth and has had preliminary talks. How far down the line they are is the question.

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 12, 2008 10:31 AM

Richard wrote...

You know guys, this Boronoia thing, as John has called it (and maybe some others – apologies for wrong acknowledgement if I've wrongly attributed – it’s a great term!), is one side of a double-edged blade. It doesn’t quite cause me sleepless nights. But it does get me riled!

I feel tremendous dilemmas when I don’t see Boro players getting credit for good stuff they do in national or international competition.... and even in the domestics, as well.

On the one hand, it irks more than a little when some noteworthy contribution is made and goes unacknowledged by the top-four or city-centric commentators or pundits, whether it’s intentional or not.

However, the flip side of this is that the greater the public attention is drawn to individual players who are highlighted as making positive contributions consistently at club and country levels, I can’t help but feel they are then being set up for a media-manipulated food chain with the financial big-hitters at the top of the ladder, simply ready to devour the threat or neutralise it, simply by buying it up.

I find this hugely irritating on several fronts, all of which contravene my (not naïve), perception of what the game of football, in its sporting sense, should be about.......but isn’t.

I find I argue internally with myself about the relative merits of each of these perspectives. I DO want, desperately, Boro to be acknowledged as a great club and I want that to be because Boro IS a great club. A successful sporting club. A successful football club. And as part of that, I want Boro’s players to be fairly acknowledged nationally, when they contribute on that stage.

It’s inconvenient that, for that to happen, Boro has to function as a business in a cut-throat international marketplace, which is dominated by relatively few large “corporations� who, if a little author’s liberty might be extended, in another, more regulated industry, may well come under scrutiny for anti-competitive practices.

Buying up the competition’s best players, paying them irresistible (seemingly) amounts of money, promising them at least consideration for a place in a European competitive squad and leaving them on your bench, to strengthen your squad and ensure Champions League involvement and the funds that go with it, all seems to be part of the “acceptable� face of Premier League football these days. And the media’s collusion in this is considerable - by information presentation, attitude-forming reporting and direction encouragement. Drip, drip, drip, drip. Liverpool this. Arsenal that. Manchester United this. Chelsea that.

“SHOCK HORROR! - LAMPARD SNEEZES! Will England’s midfield powerhouse recover in time for the start of the season?�

“WILL WAYNE EVER RECOVER FROM HONEYMOON EXERTIONS?� Erm…..Hello! (The magazine that is) - will probably pick up the bill for the whole ludicrous circus, but will ensure Desperate Dan, Manchester United’s latest pin-up (heaven help us!) and his transforming WAG, Colin – sorry, Colleen - are plastered over every spare column inch.)

“RIO SINGLE-HANDEDLY SAVES ANOTHER AFRICAN VILLAGE FROM BIRD FLU’ �

“’I WAS NEVER OUT OF THE PAPERS!’, SAYS HENRY� (Where are you now Thierry?)

“GERRARD (ALLEGEDLY) SAVED FROM LIFE OF CRIME BY (ALLEGED) GANGSTER - MAYBE�

“WILL BIG PHIL BE ABLE TO ADJUST TO JT’S SENSE OF HUMOUR?� (We are give credit for not even requiring to know what or who JT is! We're all supposed to know! Geddit?)

Did we ever see Emanuel Pogatetz’s wedding photos? Did we ever see George Boateng’s beautiful children as babies? Did we want to? Erm?

Gareth Barry – the pundits latest icon. On TV, Mottie or Pleat, or Platt, or Lineker, or Hanson or whoever, find it impossible to say anything negative about the guy. Gareth Barry receives a pass from Stewart Downing. It’s Gareth Barry’s positioning or his receptive control that gets the comment or plaudit. Downing’s a makeweight in their eyes.

Watch the difference Capello makes. This is a guy with a mind of his own. All the fawning media mouthpieces will suddenly have to start taking notice – you can detect a change about to happen already.

And, mark my words - the change will be accompanied by renewed (and of course now entirely justified, because Fabio says so) speculation and support of Stewart Downing’s elevation to be bench-warming material for one of the top four greedy, but debt-ridden talent-devourers in their bought positions at the top of the English Premier League.

It’s not beyond the imagination of some to see a scenario that could involve board-room collusion and competitive interference by those who have most to lose by dropping out of Champions League contention. But of course, THAT couldn’t happen in the Premier League – could it?

The media’s part in the hype, their attention focus on the rich and powerful, their obsession with what’s fashionable and that which feeds their own privileges, rather than what’s required to be sustainable and in the good interests of the many, rather than the plaything of few somehow needs to be questioned.

Instead of the current sickening sycophancy, wouldn’t it be a breath of fresh air to have honest and supportive national journalism and TV punditry working in genuine broad-brush support of the sport of football, instead of the perpetuation of Richard Scudamore’s evolving and continuing rape of our national sport and its cultural and social heritage?

Say what you like, I’m on Michel Platini’s side. What he’s saying is NOT jingoistic French. It’s not English hating. He stands for the everyman sport of football, as opposed to the rich man sport of international commerce and finance and its corrupting and culturally corrosive influence.

And THAT is the big picture issue to which the national media in this country consciously or subconsciously (in some cases, unconsciously) collude.

England aren’t at Euro 2008.

Wake up and smell the coffee Lineker!

Posted by: Richard  | June 12, 2008 11:34 AM

Richard wrote...

Oh! And just as if that wasn't enough! A postscript serendipitously provided by Sky, and Dave Whellan of Wigan.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3680502,00.html

I think you might just have contradicted yourself there Dave, old boy! Thank you, Dave. You've made my point for me.......exactly!!

How can he reconcile his disagreement with Richards and say what he does in the lsat few paragraphs???

This one won't last on Sky's website for too long. The editors will have it out of there in no time!

Posted by: Richard  | June 12, 2008 11:45 AM

Robert Fairbairn wrote...

Didier Digard - how utterly underwhelming!

Signings like this will not put bums on seats.

Posted by: Robert Fairbairn  | June 12, 2008 12:03 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

An attacking three of Downing, Tuncay and Aliadierre behind Alves sounds great.

I think Alves will get 20 goals next season barring injury.
If he gets injured we are looking at Mido again and I dont trust his attitude. I do think that Tuncay will score more next season too so maybe I should stop going on about another striker or Attacking midfielder.

I just believe there is a lot of pressure on Alves and if Tuncay gets injured then I cant see who is gonna chip in with goals.

We seem to be prone to injuries and bad luck.
Anyone losing a striker to injury will struggle- if Arsenal had Van Persie and Eduardo fit all of last season then they would have been much closer to Man U , who incidentally were very lucky with injuries most of the season.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 12, 2008 12:08 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

Is Robert Fairbairn joking?

This is exactly the sort of signing we should be making. From what I've read he is recognised as one of the rising young talents in Europe, better than paying £20m for 30 year old has been.

If we do sign Digard, and he does fulfil his potential, we will have a quality player on our hands, and one we can make a substantial profit on.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 12, 2008 12:20 PM

John Powls wrote...

Richard

I'd love to claim 'Boronoia' but it's actually down to my mate Ian Gill (unless he nicked it from somewhere!).

BoroPhil

I agree absolutely on Al Habsi for our goalkeeping vacancy.

He did well when Jaskelainen was out injured and is, apparently, ticked off enough now to want to buy himself out of his contract to move now that Jaskelainen has signed up again.

Jamie Ashdowne from Pompey is similarly placed and is also worth a look if we're not going to pursue Robinson as are Kusczak and Foster at ManUre.

Never Happy

Shorey has plenty of pace but has had a poor run of form in the last half of last season which was one of the factors in Reading's demise.

He was never as good as Reading fans round here claimed him to be but defends solidly and his crossing is every bit as good as Stewie's (and that's high praise from me) and he takes a mean free-kick.

Robert Fairbairn

If Dig 'Ard is our only signing then I'll be severely underwhelmed too. Especially as one would not want to anchor our midfield on an inexperienced (in the Prem and even in France) youngster who will take time to settle - however good he is.

It all depends on who else we bring and and who we can retain. He may be a solid part of a package.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 12, 2008 12:51 PM

Never Happy wrote...

JP - you know more than I do ref: Shorey, living where you do and as I said maybe he could be the LB equivalent of Luke Young.

Like most of us I know little about Digard, but that will probably be the case when we sign young foreign players who will be within or price range.

Just because we know little about them does not mean that they are going to be a poor signing. This is when the scouting network will or will not prove to be a success.

Heres hoping that it will be and that we can blend our academy players with up and coming oversea's talent. If it works it may entice other young players to the Riverside.

So much better than buying players who are looking for one last pay day. Also as Boro Phil said, these players would also have a sell on value.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 12, 2008 2:30 PM

Never Happy wrote...

On a different subject - it maybe more Boronoia

I have read and seen many news articles slating clubs for raising season ticket prices.

In all of these reports I have still to read that Boro are offering a £95 ST for younger fans. Then again any such report may then have to praise the Boro for the initiative.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | June 12, 2008 4:05 PM

Robert Fairbairn wrote...

"Is Robert Fairbairn joking? This is exactly the sort of signing blah blah blah. From what I've read"

Aye, "from what you've read" sums it up nicely , doesn't it

Posted by: Robert Fairbairn  | June 12, 2008 5:21 PM

Andy, the Hague wrote...

Now I really am Boronoid!

It was me who coined the epithet, but, much like the Boro, no credit, no mention...you're all out to get me, I know it...sob....

Posted by: Andy, the Hague  | June 12, 2008 7:02 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

John

I cannot see a blogger cry. I did not coin the phrase Boronoia nor do I claim credit for it, to quote Cluedo I accuse Andy, the Hague in the study, with a keyboard.

It will pass into common usage along with Tippy Tappy twins and Midough amongst others as a symbol of Teesside wit and the ability to laugh at our own team. Mad Dog even got into usage on BBC.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 12, 2008 10:56 PM

John Powls wrote...

Andy, the Hague

Sorry, mate! A wonderful addition to the Boro lexicon.

**AV writes: Yes itis good. Another addition this season has been "cloud of nagativity"

Posted by: John Powls  | June 13, 2008 9:07 AM

John Powls wrote...

Dangerous to take too much from performances at a tournament - many have foundered that way before.

But a couple who have caught my eye that may be in our bracket are the lantern-jawed, Desperate Dan stubbled Turkish shot stopper and the Czech Republic's fleet footed right winger, Sionko.

One performance that we should also take note of was Pogo's last evening which confirmed why he should now be a centre back!

Posted by: John Powls  | June 13, 2008 9:13 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

Middlesbrough are proposing a swap deal involving winger Gary O'Neil and Fulham midfielder Jimmy Bullard. (Daily Mail)


From today's gossip column.

I really like Gary O'Neil, I think there is a hell of a player there if he can learn to finish, but this has to be a tempting deal.

If Gareth plays this mythical 4-2-3-1, which I quite like the sound of, Digard/Bullard/Shawky/even Sidwell as the 2 sounds very solid.

The only thing against Bullard is his age, he is 30 now or just about?

Posted by: BoroPhil  | June 13, 2008 9:16 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

The Pogo full back debate has been aired before.

Despite other views expressed he came to the club as a full back and as we see has always played for Austria in that position. He can fill in at that position but he is better in the centre.

That of course leads on to a potential problem for next season. I noticed someone was away with the fairies and wrote an article in the Gazette that Huth would be fit for next season. I will stretch credulity and assume this will happen - come on chaps just accept it as a possibility for the purposes of discussion even if it is academic in the extreme.

We would then have to perm two out of the Redcar Rock, Mad Dog and Berlin wall. And Mad Dog is skipper.

So Mad Dog plays at left back or one of the others sits on the bench. But a left back he aint and certainly would not be as good as Young on the right in the new mobile Boro team.

There again, why should our Berlin Wall stay standing when the other has long gone.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 13, 2008 10:59 AM

David Morrison wrote...

Ian,

Completely agree. Pogatetz is a central defender and the games he has played in the euros he has been caught out a few times in between positions and also his pace is a massive factor when he comes up against a tricky winger.

He will play in the centre for Boro I'm certain of that and it will be up to Huth to get fit and also Riggot lest we forget.

On the transfer front I'm hoping we can get a deal for Digard wrapped up as it seems to be dragging its feet over a fee, we dont want to be ripped off and im sure PSG dont want him to go for less than what he is worth but all the publicity is just alerting other clubs.

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | June 13, 2008 11:51 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Bullard is 30 and O'Neil is just turned 25. O'Neil got some tough press after he went off injured very late in the season after being heartily involved in most of our matches.

He did not manage to put the ball in the back of the net and I think that fact has got to him and could be one of the reasons for him being unsettled.

Gareth played him on the right when he himself will tell you his preffered position is inside the right winger.

I agree with Garry on this one not Gareth and think Johnson's pace should have been utilized on the right wing after he returned from Watford.

Nice to see Poggy interviewed last night, I think his team are simply not good enough to progress but as long as he stays uninjured together with Tuncay then I will be well happy.

The lack of England fans fighting each other in the streets after a loss in the Euros is a good thing. But we may get too much of a good thng if the English strikers dont start making themselves first choice on their Prem club teamsheet.

The England manager doesnt know who are the nailed on starting strike pair because people like Peter Crouch cant get a run of games due to the likes of Torres and Kuyt [ who are both playing fantastically well in this comp]

All the best teams in this comp have a great strike partnership- Torres & Villa, Sneijder & Nistelroy and take your pick from Portugal.

Who are England's front two? Rooney has been unlucky in an England shirt with injuries, sendings off and giving away the Pen against Russia that meant we had to beat Croatia. We didnt beat Croatia because we have not got a world class front two.

The strike partnership for England has been mixed up and reshuffled more times than the Boro strikers last season!
Memories of Shearer and Owen terrorising defences are what I am on about-

Maybe Crouchy needs to move away from Anfield to get a game while he is not too old. Not just for himself but for England.

Gareth Barry is about to move from his Captains role of first man on the team sheet at Villa to Liverpool.
Lets hope he enjoys Raffas rotation policy and good wages for wearing a top four team's shirt and warming a bench. Like so many before him - Wright Philips, Sidwell and the list goes on and our national game suffers.

Practice makes perfect and some of our lads cant get on the park!

The last few managers of England have been employed for their CV and equally for their ability to handle the press.
Fair enough the press are manipulating Walrus Barwick , who is a joke anyway, but many of the other teams in the Euros have managers who were involved in their team and bring that experience into the mix.

The German managers are an example but Slavan Bilic the Croat manager is the prime example. Can we have Ince and Stewart Pearce in charge please as I dont want to win things in an 80s style of Italian football as it is simply not [add picture of Terry Butcher here] what 3 lions is about!

And breath ...

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | June 13, 2008 12:01 PM

John Powls wrote...

BoroPhil

I take it you mean that 4-2-3-1 is mythical for Boro - I expect to see Holland give another masterclass in how to play it this evening!

I agree with you about O'Neil. It will be very good news if he stays.

The problem with Bullard - aside from his age (and I think your point about investing in younger talent was well made) and the bad injury he suffered - is that the reason he left Wigan for Fulham was that he is a Londoner who couldn't settle in the North West.

That sounds like 'out of the frying pan...' for us if we were to swap him for O'Neil, assuming he would even countenance coming back North. And why would he do that with Fulham surviving in the Prem?

On the subject of bad injuries, I was somewhat disturbed that Dig 'Ard's thigh injury has only 'recovered enough' to make a transfer possible. We're not acquiring another Huth here, are we? Is that why PSG are prepared to part?

The money needs a good look at for value too, particularly if it starts to approach the £6m that is said to be the figure at which Sidwell could be prised out of Chelski.

On Ian's point about Huth and Pogo - and remembering what Gate has said about picking on form and not reputation as one of the things he wants to change this season then he surely has to start with Wheats and Pogo at centre-back.

Huth and Riggs surely have to wait their turn and prove in training that they are more worth a place than the incumbents.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 13, 2008 12:02 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

All my doubts about whether Digard will be a suitable signing for Boro have been swept away.

The fact he lacks pace, cant score and isnt creative have been blown out of the water by the fact he started so few games because of a thigh injury in Jan initially diagnosed as six weeks. On his return it flared up and missed most of the season. He is now fit, sort of, in an unfit nearly fit sort of getting into Hurworth sort of way.

That is just the type of player we need and would fit in perfectly at Hurworth, get him signed on now and blow the medical and salary, give PSG the extra E3million they want.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 13, 2008 12:32 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

PS on Digard

Where have they been scouting? Wonder why he is available? Wonder why no one has snapped him up?

Good spine to the team.
Corporal Jones
A crumbling Berlin Wall
Didier one leg
Midough the Sphinx.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 13, 2008 12:40 PM

London-based Boro fan wrote...

Further to BoroPhil's post on the report in the "Mail" about the proposed swap of Gary O'Neil for Jimmy Bullard, The Game supplement in Monday's "Times" had a first round-up of likely activity in the summer transfer market for the Prem. This is what it says about Boro:

"MIDDLESBROUGH

What we have learnt so far: Middlesbrough require greater depth in midfield, particularly with uncertainty surrounding the future of George Boateng and Gary O’Neil. Mark Schwarzer and Lee Dong Gook have left.

What will happen next: Much depends on Boateng and, particularly, O’Neil, but Gareth Southgate, the manager, is hoping to sign Sean Davis from Portsmouth and is monitoring Steve Sidwell, the Chelsea midfield player, James Milner, the Newcastle United winger, Zoltán Gera, the West Bromwich Albion midfield player, and Michael Bradley, the Heerenveen midfield player.

Pre-season matches

July 18 York City (a)
July 22 Celtic (Algarve)
July 24 Vitória Guimarães (Algarve)
July 29 Carlisle United (a)
Aug 2 Hibernian (a)
Aug 5 Darlington (a)"

According to the section on Fulham, Roy Hodgson is prepared to listen to offers for Jimmy Bullard (valued at £3m) &, of course, he's now signed Gera!

BTW, the "Parisien" article referred to in today's article on Gate's attempts to sign Digard also points out that PSG signed him from Le Havre for €2.5m last year, so the "probable transfer" will represent "a nice bit of business" for the club!

Oh, & that bit about his not having "passed" a medical is a mistranslation: the French verb "passer" in that context means "to take" or "to undergo" (it's what we in the trade know as a "faux ami", or "false friend")! He'd have used a different expression if he'd actually undergone *and* passed one. ;)

Posted by: London-based Boro fan  | June 13, 2008 2:48 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Back to the original theme and Ronaldoveragain getting most of the flak.

I commissioned some new German machinery that kept coming off its rails and causing huge amounts of downtime. We called in the German suppliers who sat there denying any culpability until I told them in front of our Technical Director we had called it Jurgen Klinsman because it was forever falling over. They didnt find it funny but did sort it out.

Jurgens antics were far more embarrassing than anything the portugal prat has done.


Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 13, 2008 4:28 PM

chris wrote...

Stupid question I know but Digard signed last year for 2.5 million euro's and now they are after 6 million. Correct me if I am wrong but he played 13 games and then was injured the rest....how and why has this valuation increased so much?

It cannot be due to anything the player has done so how? Seems to me it is a case of stinging the premiership lads....what else can it be? We were talking 5 million purely to get our money back for O'Neill if he decided to go....so shouldn't we based on this 'formula' be asking for 10+ million?

Posted by: chris  | June 13, 2008 4:46 PM

chris wrote...

Oh and btw forget Robinson from spurs as the goal keeper replacement.......watched Lobont (Dinamo Bucharest) from Romania all season and he has been spectacular....also performing well at the euro's + would be cheap! The 'cat' is the boy....forget the spurs and england cast off!

Posted by: chris  | June 13, 2008 11:27 PM

John Powls wrote...

Chris

Lobont has put in some creditable performances but, though agile, isn't he pretty small for a Prem goalie - as opposed to playing in Romania.

There are better around with Prem experience.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 14, 2008 11:29 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

Your view that Gate's talk about going with Brad Jones or Turnbull in goal for next season was some sort of ploy around the transfer market seems to have taken another battering - unless Gate's level of ploy making has reached previously unheard of levels.

Here he is on today's MFC website:-

"I don't see anything around that would be proven at this level without paying a lot of money and if we're going to sign someone who's unproven at this level then I think our two would be a match for anybody."

He adds that the only goalie we're looking for is a promising junior which should brighten up Jason Steele's Summer.

Ergo - we're not going to pay anything for a goalkeeper and Jones and Turnbull are as good as you can get for nowt.

The last part of that is probably true.

But does he really mean to say we're going to trust one of the most key positions in the team to 'as good as you can get for nowt'.

I repeat what I said earlier about this. If that's what he means and that's what he ends up doing - it will be the most profound mistake.

I know Ian had his tongue in his cheek when he described the potentially osteoperotic spine for our side next season as:-

Corporal Jones
A crumbling Berlin Wall
Didier one leg
Midough the Sphinx

But I'm beginning to think Gate may believe it.

Do you still think it's a ploy?

**AV writes: Yes. I think it is inconceivable that we will start the season with Jones as our first choice. I think there is a long way to go yet on this one.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 14, 2008 12:32 PM

chris wrote...

Sorry to disagree with you john but he is 6" 1 inch.... tall enough i would expect! I have watched him at club level and at international level for over 2 years now and he always plays with passion, never gives up,plays for the shirt and is rarely injured. He regularly makes unbelievable saves and i have never seen him make any howlers !

My point is he is better than our current options and equal to Schwarz and better than Robinson.... plus he is younger with european cup and international exsperience!

He seemed to cope with the Italian and French national teams just fine and i think to suggest we could get a better goalkeeper within the premiership cheaper and that they would play with the same passion is a bit far fetched....sorry but thats my opinion.

If there is a better more committed 'cheap' premiership goalkeeper please tell me as i would love to know who they are.

Posted by: chris  | June 14, 2008 6:43 PM

chris wrote...

Plus are we not talking about people with the right attitude/ comitment and willing to work to improve the side? Yes there are better goalkeepers but would they come to Boro and could we afford them?

Posted by: chris  | June 14, 2008 8:20 PM

John Powls wrote...

Chris

Thanks for all of that - I bow to you greater knowledge and experience of the individual and he certainly seems worth a look on that basis.

But 6" 1' was what I meant about being on the small side for the Prem. - I think you'll find that the average height is generally a few inches taller.

I find the experience you relate over the time in Romania much more convincing than a couple of Euro performances. Buying from that as a showcase has been fraught for people in the past.

I think there are a range of good goalkeepers - if you move beyond paying nowt, which seems to be the figure Gate has in mind - with solid Prem experience and before you get into the realms of silly money like The Scousers want for Carson.

Robinson is clearly on his way out of Spurs and won't cost mega-bucks - he is a Northerner, so shouldn't have a problem being at Boro;

Until he re-signed for Bolton recently Jaskelainen was available for free as he was out of contract;

Al Habsi who deputised very well for Bolton during Jaskelainen's lengthy injury is now so ticked off that he will drop back to the bench that he is reputed to have said he would pay off his own contract to move and Boro must be more attractive than Bolton's bench;

Similarly placed at Portsmouth is Jame-o's very able deputy Jamie Ashdowne;

At ManUre, behind Van de Saar, are Kuszczak and Foster. One of them is going to be on the bench all season and the other, not even that. Either may be available on long loan.

And that's just for starters - and it doesn't touch the 2 or 3 very competent Championship keepers currently linked with Prem teams like the Welsh national goalie Hennessey.

So, plenty to go at without breaking the bank and without having to bed in someone unused to the country and the league.

But as I say, Lobont's certainly worth a look.

Posted by: John Powls  | June 15, 2008 12:34 PM

chris wrote...

Seems like you are right john..... Tuncay is the new guy between the sticks. ..lol

Posted by: chris  | June 15, 2008 9:55 PM

John Powls wrote...

Chris

Yeah - I was willing that game to go on for just a minute or two to see Tunny diving about the goalmouth!

Posted by: John Powls  | June 16, 2008 7:30 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

(AV)

Just taken the liberty to copy this from my post on the Gazette thread.

''One story that the Sports would have covered would be the statement by Gate that they would not be signing a first choice keeper.

It will be a battle between Corporal Jones and Turnbull to take the number one spot.

A few thoughts.

Defences are best when settled and everyone has confidence in each other. If there is to be a beauty pageant get it done and dusted because we dont want to be two months into the season swapping and changing keepers.

The perceived view amongst many fans is that Corporal Jones isn't up to it and that Turnbull will be for the future. There is a danger that they will be less tolerant to any mistakes.

Gate has made a bold statement and will have to live with his decision. If he has got it wrong we know he will hold his hands up. If he is playing games and planning to bring someone in that will undermine him with the players. If he sticks by his choice it is 20 games to the window opening and then who knows how many until we have a new keeper settled into the team.

It is a decision fraught with risk. A perfect topic for a page of debate in the old Sports. (A tenuous link but best I could do)''

Posted by: Ian Gill  | June 16, 2008 9:42 AM

chris wrote...

Just checked Lobont's fee's/ transfers.

Signed in 2006 for 550,000 euro to Dinamo from florintina. Wages a little over 5000 sterling a week at the moment. Played in Italy, Champions League and Holland with Ajax. Seems very cheap to me as near to Gareths 'nothing' as you could get I suspect.

Posted by: chris  | June 17, 2008 10:14 AM

eddie fletcher wrote...

Going back to a BBC advert about "...who are you supporting in this year's 2008 competition...?

Our family selected - "nobody" - sorry AV - but - England for the English and stuff the rest - qualify or not - stand by your team - win - lose - or draw!

What nationality is recorded on your birth certificate? - ...and more to the point - what "soil" were you born on?

We are a Stockton family and believe me, as a Stocktonian, when my father took me to the old Stockton Victoria ground to watch a Boro pre season friendly match (John Hickton's maiden season) we were "shouting" for Stockton!

If my memory serves me right Stockton were stuffed 1-7 but we stuck by them until... well the rest is history... the old ground was demolished and built on and named "Wembley Way"!

Our point "Germany"...? - Your colleagues also have a point!

Posted by: eddie fletcher  | June 28, 2008 10:37 PM

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