Mackem Weep: Boro Left In Derby Daze
SUNDERLAND are a glorified Championship side. They have added a big fat lad who has the turning circle of a monster truck but who can cross a mean ball with his left, and a battering ram up front, a Primark Drogba, who is a real physical handful.
At their core they remain a limited team of spirited battlers - but they have taken four points off Boro and are higher in the Premier League table. That as much as anything is a searing indictment of Gareth Southgate's soft centred side.
But for a sharper, more focussed and more determined approach to the last few minutes that derby points tally and the places in the table could be reversed. At the Riverside a sloppy spell late on helped Sunderland to a late leveller and at the Stadium of Light lapses at the end of either half gave the mediocre Mackems first the initiative and then a last gasp winner. Whatever happened to Steve McClaren's "red zones" of heightened awareness? Is it concentration? Is it fitness? Is it mental fragility? Whatever, it must stop. NOW.
Worst, how many times are we going to concede from loosely defended set-pieces? Out in open play you can't really prepare for a moment of magic, sublime skill or the dropped clangers that can put you under expected pressure and lead to a goal in a flash. They are circumstances beyond control. But dead-balls are situations that the defending side should be able to control. There is a break in play to organise marking, the flight of the ball can be generally predicted, the movement of opposing players is visible and is limited by the offside law, defenders are facing the direction of the incoming delivery... these situations are practiced day in, day out.
Yet Boro, a team managed by a dug-out full of defenders, are being ripped open time and time again by routine set-pieces: costly goals have flown in against Cardiff, Chelsea, Man United, Bolton and now Sunderland. In his post-match interview Luke Young admitted that opposition teams may well have identified Boro's creaky zonal marking as a potential weakness. They are not the only ones: most Boro fans now watch corners and free-kicks through their fingers because we know it is a fatal flaw in the defensive make-up.
The late Sunderland winner was an average near post delivery that Murphy should not by rights have connected with. Forget about any confusion in picking him up when he made his run - he should have been picking himself off the floor because any confident, commanding keeper would have been out quickly to wipe him out - and Pogatetz for good measure - and punch clear.
Which brings us to another pressing problem. For my money, Brad Jones should not be playing for the first team. He terrifies me. And it seems he terrifies the defence. He made two good saves but his is a high risk presence. In almost every game I can remember he has fumbled crosses, dropped the ball or has come out but failed to collect leaving chaos in his wake and nervous team-mates to scramble clear. If we are lucky.
A harsher judge than me might put all three goals at his door. The first stemmed from when he came out to punch in a crowded box but failed to get any distance on it before it came back in and even then he made no attempt to Higginbottom's header, the second arguably he could have got to if he had been more alert in coming off his line (although that certainly doesn't absolve either Taylor for losing Chopra or Wheater for diving in and letting the Geordie Mackem cut back inside) and the third, as outlined above, at that stage of the game and with the stakes so high, he should not have been meekly sticking his hands up hopefully, he should have scythed through friend and foe to collect or punch.
The keeping situation is now critical. If Jones' display has any positives about it, it is that it highlights that no matter what his critics may say, Schwarzer is actually not that bad.
As for the rest... I am probably still too sick, angry, disappointed and frustrated to make a really objective judgement but for me the game was lost in midfield. Stewart Downing worked his socks off and ripped them open down the left but that was all the creativity and penetration offered as the rest were ineffective (and that is generous).
Cattermole was hopelessly lost on the right flank, Boateng was full of running and always willing but a yard short throughout and Arca is a shadow of the player he was going into the previous derby clash. He has never really regained his edge since the injury he picked up in that game, was rightly dropped earlier this year and has been the weakest link in the team since his return.
There were bright spots. Downing was excellent, Tuncay showed some great skills, neat movement and took his goal well and never stops running and Alves got another goal and had a few good touches (although I don't think we will ever be praising him for his workrate). And at the back Luke Young is rock solid and Poggi slugged it out with impressive Kenwyne Jones and picked up another battle scar for the cause. He also put in an incredible full length defensive diving backwards header to cut out a ball to Jones in the box.
Defeat to yet another average team of journeymen was a massive kick in the teeth - but also a reality check. It condemns Boro fans to a summer of parochial ridicule from their neighbours and after Reading and Bolton it was another missed opportunity to escape the relegation zone. For all the hype ("the best team outside the top four") and signs of a new attacking culture Boro have won just one game in ten - and that nervously against whipping boys Derby - and have taken just seven points from a possible 30.
Now we face a tense finish to a season. The odds are still in out favour but again we will stay up by default. It is still possible for Boro to get dragged down but it would take a bizarre set of results. Even if Boro fail to take another point four other sides would need to overhaul us.
Bolton would need to make up a three point gap and they face Sunderland at home (not one for the purists) and then go to a title chasing Chelsea defending and unbeaten home run that goes back to the Crimean War.
Reading also need to make up three points and have what look like winnable games at home to Spurs and then away to a Derby who will struggle to beat Sunderland's 15 point low water mark.
Birmingham, third bottom, need to make up a four point deficit and they go to revived Fulham next week then finish at home to a Blackburn side possibly still chasing European football.
And Fulham need six points and need to make up a six goal deficit to catch Boro. They will need to beat Birmingham in what will be a massive basement battle next week and then win away at a Portsmouth who may be mentally cruising down Wembley Way.
If Boro do not take at least the two points they need at home to Pompey and Manchester City and make themselves hostage to fortune and get caught up in that network of deadly permutations then they deserve to go down. They have had countless opportunities to not only save themselves but to push on. It is unacceptable that after ten years of Premier League experience and - maybe more importantly - Premier League money we are still looking at the results of teams below us two games from the end. There will be a lot of renewal letters, slick DVD and all, being thrown angrily in the bin right now.
There is a lot of work to be done in the summer.
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Anthony Vickers
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Vic
Your article - and your last two paragraphs especially - have said everything that needs to be said.
I personally thought we were fortunate to equalise. For all our neat touches here and there we never really carved out a clear cut chance (story of our season, anyone?) but at least when Alves got one, he took it. And at that stage you think, ah, the worst that'll happen is a draw. How we should have known better.
I still have memories of thinking, in the East Stand, with ten minutes to go in the Riverside fixture, "What a fine win I'll have to tell the people back home about".
Then we began to retreat, Liam Miller made his unwelcome intervention, and I found myself ranting as I left the Riverside instead of celebrating. "But it's a good result", some people I was with said. No - I thought - when a win is there for the taking, you're supposed to take it.
Roy Keane knows that better than anybody. There was a time when he was gutted after an away draw with Holland while Mick McCarthy was very pleased. It's a good result, sure, but Ireland had thrown away a 2-0 lead...
Now he's installed his mentality into his players. Sunderland, I believe, have scored at least five crucial late goals this season (including two against us). And why?
Because they were a weak side promoted from the Championship, every supposedly "superior" side that plays them thinks, "Ah, we'll roll them over." Then when they haven't done that and it's down to the last ten minutes, and the game is still a draw or set to be a narrow win for the opposition, the opposition expect Sunderland to give up. But, like the Energizer bunny, they keep going.
And they've been rewarded.
Contrast that with our home displays against Reading and Bolton. Against Reading we seemed to be lazily winding the clock down, assuming Reading would do the same (wrong). Ditto with the two Sunderland matches.
As for Bolton, there was no urgency to get back into the game whatsoever once we'd gone 1-0 down. It's as if the players thought, "So what? We've got more chances to survive." Pathetic.
Even against Cardiff there was still plenty of time to make a game of it, even after we'd gifted them those two goals. But did we? No.
How many more wake-up calls will this team need before it gets the message?
The article covers many areas which have been blogged about for some time. Posters have been criticised as neg heads for putting these points when the rest were sniffing foam hands.
The faults are there and have been for some time. They can be masked when things go well but they come out and bite your butt when things turn against you. Our wins against Derby, Fulham and Wigan were hardly impressive - once in front determined to give it away.
Many weeks ago I stated I thought we would stay up, 36 points would probably be enough to stay up. BUT Gate played for Palace who were 9 points clear with three games left and went down. The likelihood of the set of freak results all happening to send us down is very slim but the dismal drift to the end of the season is dispiriting.
The good news is that the squad is fine, the best team outside the top four just needs a bit of tinkering to launch a serious push next season. Drivel. To get the players we need we will be competing with teams with more history, Kudos, resources, wider fan bases, european football, higher league placing, better looking prospects, etc. That is the reality of the situation and has been for some time.
We have made progress but so has everyone else. We have played some good football, when we felt like it. Occasionally the spells lasted a whole half. Fans were criticised for getting away early to get through the underpass, the players often left or turned up at half time in their desire to avoid traffic jams.
And finally, can we please stop marking Zone and start marking players?
There will be debate aplenty as the season ends.
Everything you say is true, AV, but you missed one important point.
I can only call it "ridiculous" that Adam Johnson did not come on as a substitute at 60 or 70 minutes.
And I think you overestimated Downing's performance. His balls into the box were consistently off target. In contrast, as I type this, I am watching his international teammate David, deliver every ball to exactly the right point on the pitch (and in fact, in a similar manner to what an earlier England midfielder used to do for Boro).
Downing's accuracy needs to improve significantly, for him to be judged as playing well.
Perhaps Lamb's statement can be paraphrased as "you get the team you can appreciate", since many Boro fans seem to appreciate workrate that is ineffectual.
**AV writes: The halftime "expert" consensus among the Teesside contingent in the pressroom was that Boro needed Johnno on to give a bit of width, take some pressure off Downing and to give them something to worry about down what looked a suspect flank. When Rochemback came on there was groaning and swearing.
On the nose Mr V. My prediction after the Bolton débacle was that we wouldn't get another point this season, and although I sincerely hope I'm wrong, I am standing by that grim prediction.
Gareth is a nice guy, and as the cliché goes, 'refreshingly honest', but his refreshing honesty doesn't seem to to revive his team one iota.
The rallying post-match cries of 'we will be stronger for this' and 'we will learn from this' don't wash, not after the umpteenth time.
Were these maxims accurate, Middlesbrough would be the strongest, most intelligent team in the league given the number of times they have trotted out. Somehow they appear have the opposite effect.
My yardstick for the success of a season is the number of times I have been able to bring myself to watch MoTD. This season, I may as well have let my licence lapse.
I'm afraid Boro look like what they are - a team managed by inexperienced ex-pros, trying to learn their trade in the the so-called 'best league'in the World, experimenting with footballing styles and systems as they go. Perhaps an excursion to the lower echelons might be better for all concerned.
I have some sympathy for what Gibson is trying achieve, but the responsibility rests firmly with him and unless he wants to be the best chairman in the Championship he needs to do something different next season, because should Boro scrape survival this one, I fear for what might happen next.
Very well said AV, but a little too late. Never mind probabilities, if we do not get at least two points from our last games I believe we will go down.
We were terrible and Sunderland got what they deserved. I agree with Ian, the defending was rubbish, and as I have said before, GS and Coops are lost in improving this area.
I would not blame Jones for the second goal, Wheater showed his inexperience but where was Poggi and Taylor??
IF we do survive and can entice players here we would need at least the following to stay up next season: A new goalkeeper, a new left back, (Taylor is not good enough yet ) at least two midfielders and a striker.
We probably do not have enough money for all those. However we should unload Mido, if anyone will take him, he will only be disruptive when he cannot get in the team.
Huth is turning out to be a dead loss, so we may need a centre half as well. We have no cover that I am aware of at right back. And to make it worse, we will not get much money for the offloaded players.
I cannot sleep at night, but I bet that the Boro players can!!
Who would have believed at the start of the season our greatest moment at the Riverside come May 08 will culminate in Boltonesque chants of "We are staying up, we are staying up"?
Our opener against Blackburn was a taste of what was to come. In essence those 90 minutes foretold what the next 9 months would hold for us. Classy in patches with sublime inter play and passing mixed with toothless aggression and unbelievably naive defending.
This was then followed up by Wigan away and the famous Yak swansong. Was the Yak spot on with the comments we to a man berated him for at the time? Perhaps from an inside perspective he could see what the future held?
Now I don't for one minute think that the Yak is an intellectual deep thinking genius but his opinion on MFC was to prove a Nostradamian level of prophecy. Allied to later in the season to one of our own Woody, who obviously was of the same opinion.
There is a saying "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts" however it has become abundantly clear to me that for MFC this season its a case of the "The sum of its parts is greater than the whole". In a Team based industry this is disastrous.
We have some individuals who are truly Premiership class but they are infused with a mixture of journeymen cloggers, has beens and some that would be out of their depth at league 1 level, all managed by the most inexperienced Management team in the Premiership.
How has a Club that reached the UEFA Cup Final come to this in such a short time span? And in so doing ignored and alienated its fans who desperately pointed out the obvious and were rewarded by being told they didn't need our season ticket sales and that Radio commentary was now going to be controlled by a "big brother" style dictat? Not to mention the kit and the badge debacle.
There has been a massive "U" turn on the PR front mid season which is about as close as we will get to admitting they were wrong (ironically now Ally is joining the amateurish radio coverage next season in an effort to give that some credibility).
Were the stay away phone-in fans, Bernie, Yak, Woody and the long suffering attending fans wrong all that time ago or am I missing something?
You can't face the future looking backwards but it would be very dangerous of Steve Gibson not to learn from the very recent past.
If we survive there has to be a complete and radical rethink this summer of what we are trying to achieve and how we are going to achieve it going forward. You can only fool some of the people some of the time for so long!
Is Southgate a seal??? Why doesn't he stop clapping and change the game?? I you wanna fish go to a chippy.....
Redcar Red
The UEFA cup final and FA Cup semi masked deteriorating league form. That team was poor in the league, getting old in places and could not play the football the current team can play if it bothers to turn up. That team were just as absent and inconsistent as the current one but had goals in it.
We have problems in goal, Jones has always been a rush of blood away from a calamity, Swarz looks to be off, Turnbull an unknown quantity. We cant defend set pieces. We are unbalanced in midfield lacking creativity, pace and goals. We dont get enough goals from our strikers. Apart from that the squad is fine and just needs a bit of tinkering.!
Lets worry about improving in the summer and make sure we are in the premiership. Getting everyone fit and a good pre season can change things.
Can't fault anything you said Vic.
I watched the game this morning on MoTD, and quite frankly from what I witnessed we were lucky to get only a 3-2 defeat.
We scored an equaliser against the run of play, we were outplayed and out fought in every single department.
Why was Arca even on the park?; Cattermole was all over the place, was Aliadiere injured?; where was Turnbull? because if Jones is all we to look forward to should Schwarz leave we are in deep trouble at the back.
And anyone who believes that our defence is "sorted" for next season and we only need midfielders is wearing very big rose tinted glasses.
Southgate said on MoTD that he refused to take his players to task over yesterday, well I'm sorry but they and he need a reallity check as well as a size 10 up the jacksy.
He has instilled in the players their current mentatlity in that they appear to believe we cannot go down, and all around us teams are up for the fight to preserve their PL status.
We are a soft easy touch for any teams who are willing to get physical and get in our faces
If we lose the next 2 at home, then mark my words the odd set of results you speak off are very likely to happen.
Vic
You need to remember.
- SAFC are a huge football club & Boro are only a small team in Yorkshire. With your pathetic fans you only deserve to be in the championship.
Sunderland are a glorified Championship side!? We are staying up because we are good enough for the Premier League.
I suspect you meant "Primark Drogba" in your first paragraph. To be fair to the Mackems, when he plays he causes defences real problems. Throughout the (few) ups and (many) downs of this season that cannot often have been said of our forwards.
Your piece sums up how I feel. I just KNOW it must be the same for Wheats, Poggi and Downing and I guess it must be for GS and SG (no doubt more hidden.
This is the time season ticket/card holders are being asked to renew for next year (and, indeed, the next three years). The question is, "is anything really likely to change"?
Next year, if say West Brom, Stoke and Hull City come up, the widely held view is that the second two will almost certainly go down again, possibly in the same fashion as Derby this season.
Only West Brom would have a chance of staying up, conventional wisdom has it, and even then one would expect them to be amongst the group of teams fighting to stay out of the bottom three.
As things stand, that group is likely to include the other teams that avoid the drop this year (Reading, Birmingham, Wigan etc) AND Boro.
It is foolish to think that, even if we could bag the three or four players some think we need, that we would somehow then be converted into challengers for a UEFA Cup spot.
That would only apply if all the other teams stood still, which they will not. We need to be running faster than our competitors in order to get away from them. Some of the other teams will be getting out the steroids over the summer. We are currently enjoying a gentle weekend stroll as if without a care in the world.
Assuming Schwarzer is on his way, with Rochembach, DGL and maybe Arca (in fact even if we don't assume Arca) and on the basis George is a great servant whose legs might have another year in them but will not play game in game out, we need several players in order to avoid being in another relegation fight next year.
Presumably the manager realises Cattermole will not cut it in the Premiership (if he can't do it against Cardiff and Sunderland, that suggests he isn't making expected improvement as he gets older, stronger and more experienced, or maybe there are things in his life more important than his career at the moment).
In those circumstances clearly we need at least 2 good midfielders - one a younger version of George and one with a bit of flair who can pass the ball and open up the opposition - one full back and a first choice goalkeeper.
That is only the starting point. The difficulty is that, if you were one of those players, would you jump at the chance of coming to the Boro if, say, Spurs or Everton were the competition?
Let us say we are hopeful there will be the changes needed next year. But without being extreme and asking whether you would bet your life on it, let us ask if you would bet £550 on it happening? That is the early bird renewal price in the West Stand Upper and the full price is £605. Would you risk the money?
Success next season would not rest on achieving a European place by league position or winning a cup. It would be progress to achieve safety in the Premiership a few months before the end of the season rather than having to chew finger nails over the last couple of results.
The way things have turned out in this freakish year's FA Cup (we seriously contributed to the freakery in a very negative sense), Portsmouth are heavy favourites to win the Cup and have for most of the season put in a credible challenge for for a European spot through league position. We know we cannot compete with the Group of Four.
Is it so unrealisitic after several years in the Premiership to be able to rival such giants of the game as Portsmouth, West Ham or Blackburn?
Forty points is next year's realistic target. We just have to hope we can get there in, say, March rather than May 5th or whenever the season ends next year. It would be nice to enjoy the last few games, for once.
But back to the question. Does anyone seriously expect things to change? Will we be challenging Pompey, the 'Ammers or Blackburn next year? Or are we likely again to be involved in a season-long struggle to distance ourselves from the bottom three? Sadly 130 odd years suggests the latter.
Glorified championship side? Primark Drogba? Big Fat Lad? I bet every single one of your fans would love to see players like that at your club. Total stupidity, talk about being a bad loser like. Totally outplayed you and you still can't accept the fact that we're the better side and always will be.
**AV writes: I'd take Jones and Gordon from your side and that would be it. But the central point of the piece is a criticism of Boro, not Sunderland. Man for man Boro may be better in almost every case but apart from flashes here and there they are not operating as a team which your lot are.
A so called Championship side takes 4 points from Boro. What does that make Boro, a 2nd Division side?
Stop sucking those lemons Ant.
"For all the hype ("the best team outside the top four") and signs of a new attacking culture "
BWWWWAAAAHHHHHAAAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHHAAA
You been sniffing that Teeside air again?
**AV writes: The claim (which has been widely ridiculed on Teesside) was from a national pundit, not from me. That is why it is in quotation marks.
Between the team & the staff, we didn't just lose the match, the reasons for that being common knowledge / well documented above; we lost the pre & the post match as well.
Pre match; Arca & Crosby publicly fretting about their divided loyalties, the mackems must have been delighted, 2 OG's BEFORE kick off ! How difficult was it for those two after the game, especially since the BAFTA's have already been claimed.
Post match; Southgate's "....it's fantastic Sunderland are safe" pronouncement, beggars belief. In a dozen lifetimes, can you imagine Roy Keane allowing his people to big up Boro or give any sort of consideration to Boro's success, if Boro had won.
Keano's winners mentality is plain for all to see, in stark contrast to that on routine display one river down the coast. Southgate was 'hurt' & wont criticise his players !!!
Sooner or later we'll be rid of these clowns, come on Boro
You should stick to talking about your own club pal, we may be no great shakes but we have gotten 5 points from you this season.
You have 1 or 2 good players and thats it, your manager cannot motivate your players to beat teams the only time they play well is when you play the big 4 therefore he ain't doing his job.
Like I say you seem more interested in having a go at us than sorting your own problems, you won't print this, and i want to go on record as saying your the worst journalist I have ever read...pathetic as are Boro.
'The best team outside the top four' Please stop it I'm bursting at the seams!
You were lucky to get away with nowt today & that's more than you deserve. A dirty side who are not averse to sticking the elbow in at every opportunity. Kenwyne Jones will have a very sore head this morning- but he will be happy.
It's fortunate for you lot we had half our defence missing.
A championship side? Well you were outplayed yesterday and you had 12 men. That championship side has taken four points and sits above you in the table. Learn to spell as well before putting your bitter words on the net for all to see.
"Incisive, provocative and well informed it seeks to engage with articulate supporters and give them a platform to help set the agenda on the issues that matter."
I'm rolling around laughing at that. Hilarious.
I'm a Mackem and I saw no team spirit from the Smoggs. I saw a back 4 that spent more time trying 2 get an elbow in than a tackle. If we are "a glorified Championship side" you need to look at your own side!! At least our average players! will fight till the death for each other!!
Get a grip, WHATS IT LIKE 2 SEE A CROUD!!!!!
I was thinking about the result this morning, and wondered how much emphasis can be placed on the personalities of the managers themselves.
While I appreciate that GS probably isn't quite so soft in the dressing room, I suspect he pales in comparison with Keane.
Put it another way, I reckon the Sunderland players really regret it when they let him down - nothing to do with getting a bollcking, but more his innate will to win, something that has worked wonders with a largely Championship team, and something missing at Boro.
Anthony Vickers you are a disgrace to your profession.
That first line in your article sums you up perfectly. I am, well was, a Boro fan, and I went to yesterdays game and I cannot think of a single Boro player I would choose to have over their glorified Championship team equivilant.
Sunderland werent any great shakes but they completely dominated Boro, and the scoreline is very harsh on them. They could have been 3-1 up within 10 mins.
Only two World Class saves off the Conference level player Jones stopped them scoring another two in the second half, when Sunderland were tearing Boro apart.
Alves goal was clearly offside, And then Chopra was wrongly given offside when he was free to run at the Boro goal.
6-1 would have been a fair reflection of the game, so to say Sunderland are a glorified Championship team is harsh, but if you take it as true what does that make Boro? I would struggle to even classify them as a team.
Your judgement is clearly unsound. Any sunderland fans reading this I apologise as the majority of us know that we deserved to get beat, and know who the better side was and is.
**AV writes: Did I say anywhere that Boro deserved to win? Quite the opposite I would have thought.
AV - am I right in thinking that Boro are safe from relegation if we beat Portsmouth, or we draw with Portsmouth and Birmingham draw with Fulham?
**AV writes: Yes.
I have never read such a load of bitter and twisted drivel.
Your team are exactly where they belong, trying to avoid relegation, and whether you will admit it or not, are never going to compete with a team like Sunderland on a one-to-one basis because your team is gutless and cowardly.
Witness the frequent use of your defenders elbows yesterday...really brave lads, eh? It's not nice being turned over by your nearest and dearest, but at least have the balls to write it as it was.
Anthony, It seems like you have been smelling too many of those Teesside fumes if you think Boro actually deserved anything against Sunderland yesterday.
However keep sniffing and you delusions up because Boro will not go down this season, even though the Premier League would be better without their boring play and half empty small stadium.
It is no wonder Julio Arca does not want to keep commuting down the A19!
By the way, Boro will be safe next year also, but only just, because all three promoted clubs will struggle desperately next season (whoever it is).
**AV writes: I don't think Boro deserved anything. You are right that Boro will stay up and, without major changes, will be in more or less the same position again next year. And they will be a point or two either side of Sunderland.
Sunderland a 'Glorified Championship side' How do you make this assumption?
Sunderland are safe so therefore they're a Premier League side. Off the pitch Sunderland are defiantly a Premier League side and on the pitch they are a Premier League side for another year. Boro have a Premier League Chairman and stadium but not a Premier League fanbase it looks as though they have a Premier League team for another season.
I think this post has sour grapes written all over it.
While your points about a Sunderland Team made up of 'bargain buys' and journeymen are to an extent true, you fail to realise that coming into the Premier we were not an attractive proposition to many top players not willing to risk a 'yo yo' club
Keane has had little choice but to wheel and deal with second options as most of his first choices were snapped up by established teams.
Middlesbrough have had many seasons in the Premier now and have been given the sort of backing by Gibson that Sunderland dreamt about until Drumaville arrived.
I think you will find that if we continue to improve next season we will be capable of attracting a higher calibre of player. Besides, if the like of Alves, Tuncay and Downing (the only players I would take from the Boro side), are willing to play in front of 20 odd thousand (on a good day), supporters with an inferiority complex, imagine who will be willing to come to SAFC, a club very much on the up.
I'm afraid the real issue is that yourself and the rest of the Boro supporters are unhappy that a previously stagnant club up the road is now starting to stir.
I dont think you can call Sunderland a championship side as they are now safe and some of their fans comments on here are pretty reasonable I think.
The problem is Boro have given away games late on in the match and Sunderland have nicked games late in the match.That is why both teams are where they are which is just safe or just about safe.
Neither team will be contesting for Europe next season- Boro need two good results in the last two games to get some fans to buy season tickets and maybe to stay in the division.
The season is not over yet and Sunderland are only three points above us. They are not high and mighty but they are safe and that means a lot!
Calm down , Calm Down.
Well done Sunderland you got all 3 points - deserved them and are now safe, I hope we will be following you into safety next game.
It looks like you have won a Boro fan too. Patrick Stewart has 'crossed the floor' and looks like he is now a Sunderland fan.
[Didnt he used to host 15 to 1 on channel 4]
Up the Boro !
Well done Sunderland, I hope you go on to beat Bolton next Saturday.
Great post which succeeds in both capturing the collective frustrations of Boro fans at yesterday's debacle, while generating a typically incoherent response from irate and illiterate monkey Mackems (who apparently aren't bothered about us, and seem to be forgetting that they were lucky to get one point at our place despite maiming a few of our players with their rough-house championship-style tactics).
What are all you Mackems whinging about. Can't you read? Can't you face reality?
AV says you are an average side of Championship players and a good forward which you are. You have probably been saying it yourself all season on your own boards.
AV says it is a disgrace that Boro have been dicked twice late on and you have taken four points from us which it is.
AV said that is totally unacceptable that after all the cash Gibbo spent in ten years in the Prem that we can still get turned over by the likes of Cardiff, Bolton,Reading and you lot and it is.
He never slagged you off, said Boro deserved to win, said Boro were "the best outside the top four" or had a pop at you or your team beyond stating the obvious.
His gripe is with Boro and the spineless way they approach games, get out-fought by ordinary teams and the way they knock off early and throw away points. And they do. That's a discussion for us to have not you.
If you want to throw infantile insults around and generally act like deluded Geordies get on your own board.
Coggins....your reply sums your miserable team and it's supporters perfectly, and how do you manage to type with six fingers on each hand ?
Well you might not have said Boro deserved to win, but you certainly suggest that Sunderland were and are a poor side, and only beat Boro in spells at the end of each half.
Go to the game next time, and you will see that barring a 3 minute spell at the start of the game, Boro were poor and absolutley blizted by the Glorifed Championship Side.
Sunderland fans please keep posting on this blog complaining and filling his in box till this fool at least acknowledges in his "article" that Boro were not victims of a smash and grab and were the architects of there own downfall but were well BEATEN by a better side, and if not remove the "glorifed championship " statement add a "glorified League 1" statement in regard to Middlesbrough.
Sunderland are better than Middlesbrough in nearly every factor.
1) better manager, the fact Sunderland score so many last minute goals and keep on going all game, and that Southgate cant motivate his players unless its Man utd is tesitment to this
2) better players, Only Downing, Young and Wheater can be considered Successes this season, the rest of the Boros midfield have scored 3 between n them, and the attack has been pitiful.
Sunderlands defence is stronger Evans and Nosworthy are individually and collectivly better than Huth and Wheater. Boros left backs are a joke and cannot be compared to Collins. Young is a great player but Bardsley is better and Younger(sic)
Downing and Richardson are equal on the left, Downing probably pipping it due to richardsons injuries, Reid and Leadbitter are much better than the jokes that have been Arca, Rochemback, Boateng, Cattermole etc.
And as O'Neil has 0 goals and 0 assists its obvious Edwards is better despite his reletive lack of talent.
Up front there is no comparsion as Jones and Chopra have scored more combined than all of Boros 6 strikers combined, and Sunderland have played 1 up front for the majority of the season
3) Sunderland have drew at the Riverside, and Won at SOL. 4 points to Boros 1 point in heads to heads. Sunderland are the better side when the teams play each other
4) Sunderland have won more games, 11 to 8
5) Sunderland have scored more goals 36 to 33
6) Sunderland have more points 39 to 36
plus add to that More fans, better stadium, better chairman, more money
The only thing Boro have that tips them ahead of Sunderland is they have a better academy, but with only Downing being any good its nothing to shout about.
Wait! where did Boro get in the FA youth cup this year? and where did sunderland get? Maybe Boro dont have a better academy afterall.
Conclusion: Sunderland are better than Boro in every conseivable attribute, Sunderland won at a canter yesterday and the scoreline hides thats fact, and Sunderland are a better premiership team than Middlesbrough.
Oh and I see Vickers you dont mention about the Boro fans ripping chairs up and throwing them at the Sunderland fans, racist chanting, and general trouble caused by the Boro fans in your balanced article
Vic, Like Brownlee & Co., you should take off your 'red specs' for once.
Your 'team' played for the first & last 10 minutes. You could count on one hand the other 'fat man' on the park (Alves) touching the ball, converting a lucky deflected Arca pass.
Apart from a couple of crosses, Downing, again, was anonymous; Boateng, too slow; Cattermole chasing shadows & Pogatetz second best all afternoon against Jones. A Boro fan on Radio Tees told of 23 second half minutes when Boro failed to attack their own half!
Championship side? An enviable 40,000+ every week for you Smoggies to weep at; the fact that SAFC will have won more games than Boro this year and definitely a financially brighter future.
" We've turned the corner "
" I like Gareth, he's honest and articulate "
" He's trying to create attractive, attacking football "
" we can clearly see the shoots of what Gareths trying to create "
How much other utter rubbish has been written in here by the rose tinted brigade ?
" Yet Boro, a team managed by a dug-out full of defenders, "
AV, I respect you and I really enjoy your blog, but AV I just cannot agree with you and I personally think that it's time that you and others faced the reality that one or two of us have stated since this joker was appointed as our " manager ".
He was a very good defender in his time, not great, and a very good leader, but not great. This doesn't mean that you can be even a half decent coach.
Some amazing players never made this transition and it was clearly a mistake to even think that Southgate could do it at his first go at such a high level.
He's not yet ready, he's not yet tried and tested and he's just making rookie mistakes along the way because that's just what he is, a damn rookie.
Roy Keane's not in this category as although he's just starting out as well he commands a far higher level of respect due to who he is and what he's achieved as a player and where he achieved it and he works just like his mentor Ferguson where he rules with a rod of iron and has the respect in order to be able to do so.
Well done Sunderland. But in the light of day we are a better team as a whole and we have far, far more experience in this league and in Europe. The one and only reason why we are lower and still fighting off relegation is only because our chairman employed this joker.
Yes, Steve Gibson the great, great man that he is made the biggest mistake of his chairmans life by employing Gareth " The Rookie " Southgate.
A Redknapp, an O'Neil, and a Curbishley type manager would have done far, far better this season with the squad we have and that's a shocking indictment of just how bad our chairman got it, and it smacks of absolute arrogance that he isn't prepared to give him the boot.
We have badly underachieved yet again and it's bloody high time we woke up and looked at the league table, as unlike Southgates smoke and mirror post match words that show him up for the complete and utter inept manager that he is, this just doesn't lie.
GET RID OF HIM AND PUT SOMEONE IN WHO HAS A CLUE AND THEN LET THEM WIELD THE KNIFE AND BRING IN THEIR OWN COACHING STAFF.
" Lets worry about improving in the summer and make sure we are in the premiership. Getting everyone fit and a good pre season can change things. "
Ian, when was the last time and how many times have we had a good pre season that lead to a good start to a season ?
These people have had their chances and they blew them and many of them and so now it's time that we sent the whole bloody lot of them on the number 49 bus to the damn job center where they belong.
No doubt that the club will soon announce Ronaldinho's or Pele's or Maradonna's, or Henry's on his way to the Riverside as they do every year in a desperate and pathetic attempt to see season tickets.
TB
PS. No doubt the Sunderland derby was just too big a game for the lads just like the Cardiff game was. Ohhh the pressure... ohhh the stage fright.
It's bloody embarrassing...
You rightly point out that Arca, the Boat and Clattermole all had poor games for one reason or another and that is where Boro's real problem lays.
I think at the back with everyone fit we are reasonably solid and up front (with everyone fit) we have the personnel to play a potent style and get goals.
But the midfield have misfired all season and that is why we are not getting goals (because they cant get forward quickly enough to support) and why we are leaking so many (because there are too many unforced errors losing possession or giving away free kicks that have put us under pressure.
For me I'd keep Downing and rip the rest up and start again. We need someone to be like the Boat was five years ago and a fast, creative player with a bit of drive, a winner. With that plus Shawky, O'Neil and Johnno as cover we'd have a decent midfield and be a different team.
As for the Mackems (and what they are doing on a Boro blog I don't know) it is a sickner to lose late on like that. A draw would have been fair enough but I can't believe they think they were better in all areas. They sneaked it against a poor Boro team.
You're making the relegation situation more complicated than it is.
If we draw against Portsmouth, we will be safe before the last match of the season, unless ALL THREE of Birmingham, Bolton and Reading win their next games.
The likelihood of any three Premiership matches having no draws is small.
If all 3 win, then we have the same home-game-against-already-safe-mid-table-opposition as Birmingham (and Bolton have to get at least a point at Stamford Bridge).
So, we have two home games and every opportunity to make it happen ourselves.
Also NOTE: If we only draw one of the last two matches, and Birmingham win both and Reading win both, and Bolton win and draw at Stamford Bridge, in other words, everything going against us, we can still stay up if the LIKELY event happens that Wigan has multi-goal losses AT Villa looking for Europe and against Manchester United...
Kneejerk city. It was Typical Boro not the end of the world. Nice to see the same old moaners who criticise Boro for lacking bottle, unity and belief are the first ones on here squealing and wetting their knickers and sticking the knife in.
And I can't believe that Patrick Stewart was ever a Boro fan. No Boro fan would side with the Mackems like that because they didn't like something in the Gazette. I think he is a wind up.
And I got slated by certain Boro supporters on this blog when I complained about the players being overpaid and not trying for the full match, when I mentioned the video starring David Wheater!
It seems that a lot of the players heard him say the "70 minutes" quote, and so they think it is okay for them to follow suit.
Well guess what, a few months later and it seems everyone is saying the same thing.
Sunderland are safe and winning games late on because they CAN be bothered to play to the final whistle. And they have a manager who motivates them to do this.
Tony Black, I cannot agree more with you. Well said!
Mwwwaaarrrgghhhh.
How bitter are you smoggies. I told you a couple of weeks back that we would stuff you. You're just a small town full of of bitter people in Yorkshire. hahahahahahaha
FTM
Boro have technically better players and when they fancy it can play some good football. Unfortunately for us Sunderland are a TEAM, they always fancy it and play for the full 96 minutes.
We could do with a bit of that. Without a bit of spirit, bottle, motivation we are just a collection of highly-paid individuals who don't turn up every week . That is why we lost to Sunderland, Bolton, Cardiff etc.
Lugworm
I'd have thought having more digits could actually have the opposite effect.
Great name BTW given how easily you rise to the bait.
PS Do you live in one of them strange hobbit dwellings up there and if so do you bang your head on the ceiling a lot?
Patrick [15 to 1] Stewart,
Nice long rant mate!
Fact, you nicked a draw at the Riverside late on and you nicked a win at the Stadium of Light late on.
Fact, you have scored three goals more than us and we have had injuries and suspensions to all of our strikers this season.
Fact, you are only three points above us with only two games to play. Nowt to brag about as we have been rubbish this season apart from beating Arse at the Riverside and the 2-2 with Man U.
Get over yourself man.
Clive road : "Kneejerk city. It was Typical Boro....."
Kneejerk suggests an over the top reaction to a "one-off" occurance. We have seen this all season, Boro throwing away game after game so it hardly "kneejerk" for many of us to be fed up wiht it and demand something different.
As for "typical boro" I think this excuse is wearing a bit thin.
Agree with all AV says about Brad Jones - he is a liability. At least 2 of the goals can be put down to bad keeping.
I would like to know if anyone who was there on Saturday were as mystified as I was by the Police tactics??
A full 15 mins before the end of the game, The Police blocked all the exits down to the concourse, stopping everyone going down there, even women and kids who wanted to got to the loo.
I can understand them not wanting anyone to be able to leave early, but why not block the main doors instead of stopping people going down to the concourse. As you would expect this caused a lot of touble that could have been avoided.
Also, when we were "herded" to the station afterwards, for no reason, they had Police dogs barking and growling at us as we passed which frightened many of the kids that were in the crowd - can't say I enjoyed that myself either. These are well trained animals and only do that if they are instructed or allowed to.
I think the Police tactics were far too heavy handed, and I for one won't be visiting the Stadium of Light for that fixture again if we are to be treated like that.
Oh dear Vic, the mackems are having a bit of a pop at you!
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=324459&highlight=vickers
**AV writes: I'm big enough and ugly enough ("David Wheater's ugly brother" apparently) to take it.
Patrick Stewart; you are not a Boro fan.
Have the balls to admit you are one of the 'unwashed' who wants to have a pop at us. Thats fair enough after Saturday as you won, Paddy. Where were you last week when in the derby that really matters you were soundly beaten yet again by the really massive club up the road?
Now Jog On, theres a good man.
Well Vicks you certainly put the cat among the pigeons this time. I detected more than just a touch of irritability in your blog - but is it any wonder?
With only two games to go and relegated or safe, I think it's fair for people to pass comment on the season without being classed as moaners.The table doesn`t lie.
How can this season be classed as anything but a disaster ?The current regime have succeeded only in alienating more and more fans - and not on a short term basis. The pain experienced this season will live on.
The realists amongst us know that this club would be nothing without Steve Gibson. The very fact that we are only a few points shy of two North East Clubs with massive fan bases compared to our own say a hell of a lot for Gibbo.
And yet, his unstinting patronage of Gareth Southgate could well be the undoing of the club. Just what does Southgate bring to the table apart from honesty, integrity and being "a bloody nice bloke" , none of which are, sadly, essential qualifications for a Premier League Manager?
I (and many others) have bemoaned the fact that he hasn`t got a clue about setting the team up to score goals, but when we can`t even defend set pieces or put in a 90 minute performance against ANY team, or not even turn up when the chips are down, the cupboard really is bare.
He may eventually become a decent manager, but his training and experience will come at huge cost to Middlesbrough Football Club, at which point he'll move on to better things.
Please Mackems stop going on about crowd sizes it really cheese me off....last season pre-keane you lot got 21000 in the championship for your first 3-4 home games..........so well done you have "found" 24000 fans from somewere.
Totally disgraceful result against a Sunderland team whose lack of ablility is compensated by a never say die attitude, hard work and determination.
We need to sort the midfield out NOW and Brad Jones looked like Bambi on ice when he was flapping everytime the ball came his way.
Have had a lot of respect for the SoS faithful as they are not as deluded as the 'big' club over the river or so I thought...... It seems from this blog that they have been lurking all season but not daring to say anything until they doubled their points total from their last premiership stay.
My prediction is that their will be as excitable and deluded as their friends over the river next season.....
Anyway, enough of the morons - just makes me laugh that they come out of the woodwork when it is impossible for them to get relegated. We all know they were really worried before the game.
Whether Boro go down (and I don't for one minute think they will) or stay up I think Steve Gibson needs to look at the overall quality of football, results and team spirit and ask himself if we are moving in the right direction. I am not too sure myself and as you say there is a lot of work to be done this summer to address all our issues.
COME ON BORO!!!!
AV
You certainly wound up the Mackems, what they dont realise is that you were not criticising them.
The fact is they are a glorified championship side but that is this season, if Keane continues his work at SOS they will become an established premiership side and they may go further.
Your points were barbs at the Boro not at our friends up the A19.
Clive Road
Sorry mate but many of us who have posted are not knee jerkers. The problems have been at the club for several years, think back to 20 points from 18 games post Xmas 2004, the ticket throwing at the Villa match and the 7-0 drubbing at Arsenal in the following season, safety after the 37th game last season and a similar scenario this year.
Gate says we must learn from these lessons, the first one is to stop saying we must learn from these lessons and actually show some experience of lessons learnt.
It is very frustrating, it is possible but unlikely we will go down. In the end it has become a dispiriting season because of the patchwork nature of performances and the recurring nature of the problems.
Appointing sSuthgate was like doing a car rally without planning the route. or putting a three legged horse into the Grand National or doing a marathon with no training
Utter rubbish on Saturday - as predicted Boro bottled it against a very average side who had loads more commitment than us.
The midfield remains the major problem - lets get it sorted over the summer and get Robinson in from Spurs.
PS. Have the sad old Mackems got nothing better to do than come on here and moan?
"Have had a lot of respect for the SoS faithful as they are not as deluded as the 'big' club over the river or so I thought"
Have a lot of respect for the SoS faithfull my foot. You obviously have the ra-ra's FMTTMers school of thought that Newcastle were/are our main rivals. You modern day Riverside ra-ra' boys are soooooo wrong about this.
Theres nowt wrong with hating Newcastle but Sunderland are and always have been our "traditional" rivals despite the recent anti Newcastle bandwagon that has sprung up since the formation of the FMTTM messageboard.
Its time to get back to basics, both on the field and off. Sunderland are our traditional rivals, Newcastle are "just another team" and the Boro just aren't good enough.
Andy (Hants). You're right - SAFC vs. NUFC, is the North East derby. Darlo, Pools, your lot - it would be just another game on the fixture list! I was there last week and yes, we were poor, but just the opposite this week.
Bigmets - Another fact. When we were relegated last term, the SoL average attendance was 3,000 up on those at the Shiverside chasing Europe so what's the excuse?
And to some of you - the reason we're on the sport blog, is that we're Teesside Gazette web readers! Has the penny dropped?
Everything you have said is right. Brad Jones is not a good keeper he scares the life out of me when he plays.
I was at the game sat behind the goal where Higginbotham scored and Jones was poorly positioned. David Wheater got away with murder for most of the game and was unusually poor for Chopra's goal.
Sunderland may have championship players but they have a never say die attitude that we sorely lack
Actually, I haven't got anything better to do.
If this bloke is happy to knock his own team, that's fine by me. I believe he was belittling SAFC because Boro were beaten by a better team on the day & perhaps did not want to 'bite the hand...'
**AV writes: Hmmmm. Not a regular reader then.
I was staggered to see in Gate's interview with Philip Tallentire, as related in today's Gazette website, that Gate's perspective about why we are where we are is only one game long.
The facts are that we could have been effectively out of the relegation morass as long ago as the Reading game.
And we all (except for Gate, apparently) know that there have been a number of occasions since then when unnecessarily dropped points have dropped us further in it when what should have been got would have had us clear.
I think that the clue is when he talks about 'having a cushion'. I suspect that he and the players have had the same old attitude problem for a while.
This is exacerbated by something else he says about 'everyone' - who the hell is that? - saying that we're too good to go down and that we'll get out of it.
The history of the Prem is littered with sides being relegated who were too 'good to go down'.
More fool him - and the coaches, players and Gibbo (and the curiously silent Count DracuLamb - where is he, by the way?) - for listening and believing their own publicity as opposed to the evidence of performances and results.
There is also the implication that Brad Jones is the one being singled out as the fall guy. Not by me. There wasn't one on the pitch or in the dug-out - except Johnno and Shawky as usused subs - who should escape blame for yet another shameful capitulation.
And if you know that The Mackems have taken 8 points this season, including 2 (now 5) from us, from late goals - and that we are known to be vulnerable to conceding those and to conceding from set pieces would not one of the definitions of professional or 'learning lessons' be 'don't give them a chance to do it to us again'?
That article and your blog, AV, refer to the pattern of results that would see us down as 'bizarre'.
I don't accept that. From experience the results at this stage of the season are far from what any form book at any other time of the season would tell you.
If we in any way rely on those results going for us we'll go down - and, as you say, Boro and MFC will have deserved it.
I also see Gate praying in aid that our last two games are at home. How is that an advantage given our home form this season?
It will be interesting to see how many of the first team squad bottle it this coming weekend.
I would also like to know the truth about Huth - is he a write off for this next game, for the next two, for the German Euro 2008 squad or altogether?
I would still go with the same team against Portsmouth as I suggested last week for The Mackems set out 4-4-2:-
Schwarz/Turnbull (please!!); Young, Wheats, Huth/Pogo, Pogo/Tayls; Tuncay, The Boat, Shawky, Stewie; Aliadiere, Alves.
If Aliadiere isn't fit then Tuncay should go up front with Johnno on the right of midfield. There should be no sight of Arca, Rocky or Catts, except on the bench.
An alternative would be to match up Pompey's likely shape and go 4-2-3-1 with the same defence, The Boat and The Shawkster holding and Aliadiere, Tuncay and Stewie supporting Alves up front.
There was the first sign at the weekend that Pompey had taken their foot off the gas. But 'Arry won't want them to go to Wembley off the back of three or four defeats and their away form has been better than their home form.
It doesn't look as though James will be fit either but Ashdown is a much better prospect than either Turnbull or Jones.
'Arry may also rotate a few to liven ideas up and give the likes of Mendes, Davies and Nugent a shot at claiming a Cup Final berth.
Defoe can't play in the Cup final and has long been a nemesis for Boro.
Any way round it's far from an easy fixture and any percpetion in any Boro mind that Pompey won't be up for it is profoundly dangerous because this yeam and management always respond to situations like that by taking foot off gas and losing.
Gate's aksing a lot to ask a big crowd to turn up and yell the team on. Nevertheless, I hope folks do turn up and give it a go - of course the team have to as well.
3-2 enough said the championship side is staying in the premiership!
Declan; "it would be just another game on the fixture list".
Is that why you are on a Boro blog givin' it large? Surely beating a small Yorkshire club can't erase the pain of lasts week spanking can it?
Why bother to mention it when its just a 'nothing' game or is the reality that after waiting so long you are just enjoying beating one of your more successful neighbours?
My optimism of getting 10 points from the last four games seemed... well, what you would call 'a little optimistic' - I'd now settle for one point!
Over the last month we've been discussing why we can't play decent football against anybody but the top four - and that is still where we are.
I've long since accepted that this was going to be a season of transition and experimentation, but it's still no excuse for players not performing.
I think on the whole Southgate is taking the team in the right direction and I think people should think about the available alternatives before they get their knives out.
During the last 40 years, with a few exceptions (briefly El Tel, Lennie Lawrence, John Neal), Boro have a record of appointing rookie managers.
Which top class manager are people expecting to come to Boro? There are only a handful available, otherwise you'll end up with experienced has beens who have lost touch with the modern game.
No, the real problem lies with the players - unless they are under zero pressure, our midfield neither protects the defence or supplies the attack and I agree with an earlier post from Neil M - keep Downing and ditch the rest!
But it's now going to be difficult to attract the widely coveted Sidwell and Bullard by finishing one point above relegation. So I suspect it will be a summer of trawling through the european leagues for hidden gems.
"So I suspect it will be a summer of trawling through the european leagues for hidden gems."
Ronnie Linz (of Sporting Braga ).....Come On Down!
'Sweaty' Agar - at over 40 years of age I really do not need a lecture from you about who our main rivals are. I don't care if it is Sunderland or Newcastle nor did I claim that Newcastle were our biggest rivals.
FACT - in the past ten years in the premiership Newcastle have been our 'rivals' as Sunderland have been in and out of it more times than a Geordie in a bakers shop.
I really don't give a flying one who our rivals are. Was just pointing out that generally Mackems seem to be more grounded than Geordies.
I have the 'pleasure' of working with both sets everyday and while the Geordies are unbearable I do think Sunderland is a well supported club whose fans had not yet give way to delusion. Only my opinion but if that makes me a ra ra then so be it.
The rivals I am worried about from now until the end of the season are Fulham, Bolton, Birmingham etc etc. Do I make myself clear. Now go and play with your lego!!!
COME ON BORO
So Arry up next with a Pompey side that has only one away draw so far this season. They play like either world beaters or panel beaters (any good panel beating footballers out there?) and so a draw looks unlikely.
I dont think we will go down but like John states, strange results happen at this part of the season. West Ham stayed up by beating ManU last year.
We shouldn't be in this position and it is no good Gate saying not to have a go because they deserve it. Not during the match because that is where we show our support for the team but the boards and phone ins are fair comment.
If 25,000 people got their shopping home and found the tins of beans didnt have beans in then we would complain. I have paid to watch football matches where I dont get 90+ minutes of football, if they arent careful there will be special offers next season - buy 19, get four free.
Show that we have learnt some lessons and get the points we need on Saturday.
We beat ya fair and square.. there was no need to call us a championship side at all, it shows your inadequate in your views. I want to see Boro win and stay up... its them lot over the Tyne that i would like to see in your position. Just because you lost was there a need to belittle SAFC ?
Werdermouth
Who else are we expecting to come - other than rookies?
Well, given the position we're now in (even if we survive in the Prem) you'd have to say it would be a harder job than when we had just been in a UEFA final, having just won the Carling Cup the year before (any of our Gazette reading Mackems still around to note that? Bet their fingers trace the words on the screen and their lips move).
As Gibbo has since admitted he was in serious negotiation with Otmar Hitzfeld - I won't rehearse his CV, it would take too long, but you know who he is.
He admits that he eventually decided against him because Hitzfeld wanted to sweep away the legacy of coaching staff and bring in the people he was working with at Bayern.
In one of the more xenophobic statements I've had the displeasure to read in recent years Gibbo said he didn't want to turn Boro into 'Berlin-on-Tees'.
(I presume the Mackems don't mind Quinny and Kean-o turning it into Sunderland on Liffey)
Whenever I see the fruits of what Gibbo chose to do - and even if he still wanted Gate he could have backed him with a first class assistant and coaching and fitness staff - I remember what could have been.
It makes you want to weep. If you think it's just me or the other non-foam handers on here, read what Luke Young says on the club website today.
I've just had yet another go at the BBC predictor and put Boro down for two defeats and still had us staying up by a point. That just goes to show how desperate this season has/is being.
The bottom line is we conceded far too many in the first half of the season, ironically something that was corrected after Woodie left.
Also as we all know the big big mistake was not replacing Viduka and Yakubu. By just bringing Mido we have been woefully exposed as a team with no fire power.
I hope that in two weeks time we are discussing what needs to be done to ensure an improved premiership season next year rather than what needs to be done to get promoted.
The Sunderland defeat and the Reading defeat in isolation will not/are not the reasons for a dismal season but they are certainly symptomatic of an inability to secure results/points off teams in and around us.
Andy (Hants).
1) I've already admitted that the Barcodes defeat smarted - no excuses.
2) Fact - there's loads of Teesside-based SAFC supporters who just happen to read the sports pages of the Gazette (mostly biased, we know). Technology means that we can see its contents on a computer, including Vic's regular biased blog-ranting.
3) If you're whining on about Yorkshire, then, yes, your game would be the same as one against Leeds, Barnsley, Hull, etc, who should make up your little derbies. After all, "Yorkshire born, Yorkshire bred..."
4) I'm sure in your last comment that you don't REALLY mean that the Smogs have been more successful than Sunderland. If you do, then you urgently need to get out your footy history books!
If you're hell-bent on your beliefs, well, give us a pint or a sniff of what you're on!!
AV, Can you remind me please - Is this a Middlesbrough Evening Gazette Blog or a Sunderland Echo Blog ?
I didn't realise that so many Mackems read the Gazette.
I was at the match on Saturday, would have been been delighted with a draw, but we got what we deserved - nothing.
Our defending was abysmal at times, and if we don't bring in a decent goal keeper soon there are very worrying times ahead.
I was also disappointed with the way the Police handled the fans at the end of the game. They were too free and easy with their batons. I know they were dressed from the Dark Side, but they didn't have to play the part so keenly. There was a lot of blood spilled between the exit gate and the coaches.
On a brighter note, let's hope we catch Pompey on a bad day on Saturday. Minds on the cup and all that.
wheres Robin Mitton when you need him?
well done sunderland, you deserved it.
We need to face facts, sunderland are playing like a team, even if it full of journeymen. we need a keeper, and a midfield.
Forget being the best team outside the top four, we are the worst team outside the bottom three more like.
GET RID OF ARCA & ROCHEMBACK
Dear hermanmunster
After reading your drivel about lego amongst other things, I assume that you have confused your age with your IQ.
:)
four words...... zonal defending is crap.
The biggest worry about our current situation (apart from the obvious that we could go down) is GS apparent inabilily to be ale to motivate his team.
Whenever we play a team we should on paper be beating we invariably flop big time i.e. Cardiff Reading bolton wigan(away) Sunderland. Our squad on paper at least is better than all in the lower half bar Spurs an perhaps Newcastle an we are still not safe.
Will things change next season? I have my doubts but GS has to deliver next time round. I still think we will struggle for goals as Alves is the only genuine goal scorer we have
Get rid of Mido and sign another pacey goal getter Love maybe? Plus two goalscoring midfielders. Stewy's chipped in well this time but the rest of midfields been pathetic-add a left back and a commanding keeper(not Robinson) an we might have a decent season.
Sunderland signed Ian Harte (yes, THE ian Harte), Russell Anderson, Roy O Donvan, Carlos Edwards, Andy Cole plus in Chopra and Jones the best two strikers in the division after Beattie and Phillips plus the obligatory Man United reserve (this years Luke Chadwick)then in the window went for Andy Reid.
How can any of them deny they are a Championship side with a straight face?
Alright they beat Boro. Whoopy-do. Even Cardiff managed that. It doesnt make them good side it makes us a bad one.
Declan you are a card! Having an opinion that does not meet with your approval means I am 'whining' eh? Lacking a little in intellectual content that one Einstein.
In the last 30 years you cant get close in terms of winning anything/cup finals etc etc. Surely you're not going down the old Geordie argument of going back to the days of black and white TV, the Bay City Rollers were No1 and Ted Heath was in Downing Street are you? Oh I see you must be!!
Put the top back on that marker pen Dec, it does you know good in the long run. That'll be all.
I actually cannot believe what one of the Sunderland fans put up there!
To quote "we have a better chairman, and better manager"
I'm sorry but you are talking absolute complete and utter rubbish. You look at your team, and it is full of Premiership failures. You cannot even begin to compare Boro and Sunderland because there is such a big gap between the two teams.
The only reason you fill your stadium is because the Mackems have nothing else to do rather than cheer on possibly the luckiest side this season.
Your right, you did deserve to win at the weekend, but no way was Pogatetz second best to jones, and thats proven as Jones didnt score!
Just wait until next season, when hopefully some of our very poor players will have left eg, Rochemback, Lee, Schwarzer, Cattermole, Arca, Mido etc. We really need a creative midfielder who has flare and can actually see and find a pass.
Another goal for Afonso cant do him any harm at all, the pass from him to Tuncay was inch perfect.
Next season, top 8 finish
come on boro!!!!
Mackems, look congrats on your win. You deserved the last minute winner as much as you didn't deserve your equaliser at the Riverside.
You think your team/fans are better, us Boro fans think we're the better set up. We're never going to agree here.
All I know is I'm proud we've had 10 consecutive years in the top flight. Fact is you had a better season than us. Well done. Next season we will see what happens. Maybe we'll do better, maybe you will.
I just ask that you don't come on here spouting abuse about Boro and Vic, who writes a blog us Boro fans love to read. Yes we're biased on here but what do you expect?
I thought some of the posters on here might be interested in some historical statistics. (And then again, some might prefer not to dwell on history!)
However, there have been 37 clubs have graced the Premier League since it became a 20 club league in season 1995-6.
Ranking them in order of league position achievement, averaged over all seasons since then, the following is the table of positional ranking.
(Note that for simplicity I've accorded a value of 21 to any club outside the premier league in any particular season, so the data isn't absolutely arithmetically accurate for those clubs who have occupied most of their time in the Championship, but it is a fair indicator of Premier League achievement for those clubs who have spent most of their time, if not all of it, in the top flight.)
Manchester United 1
Arsenal 2
Liverpool 3
Chelsea 4
Aston Villa 5
Newcastle United 6
Tottenham Hotspur 7
Everton 8
Blackburn Rovers 9
West Ham United 10
Leeds United 11
Middlesbrough 12
Bolton Wanderers 13
Southampton 14
Charlton Athletic 15
Manchester City 16
Leicester City 17
Fulham 18
Derby County 19
Sunderland 20
Portsmouth 21
Birmingham City 22
Sheffield Wednesday 23
Coventry City 24
Wimbledon 25
Wigan Athletic 26
Ipswich Town 27
Reading 28
Nottingham Forest 29
West Bromwich Albion 30
Bradford City 31
Crystal Palace 32
Sheffield United 33
Barnsley 34
Norwich City 35
Queens Park Rangers 36
Watford 37
Wolverhampton Wanderers38
They say that the past is not necessarily a guide to the future. Well, in some respects it may not be, but who'd argue (other than the Mackems and the Geordies!!) that the top four group are likely to change identity?
Anthony Thomas......not only did jones send pogatetz for a paper everytime he went past him... but jonesy did the same to wheater too. Now then sonny... premiership failiures... you mean your premiership failiures.
Sunderland have had the better season and in my opinion have the better manager, but not the better chairman.
But we have by far the better Premiership pedigree and of that you simply can't argue as the stats book doesn't lie. Ten consecutive seasons in the the top flight prove we are no longer a yo yo club as Sunderland still are.
I wish you guys all the very best, I really do as it's great for the North East that we have three clubs in the Premiership.
But if you guys want to come on this board and contribute in a proper and fair way so that you add positively to the debate then you're going have to be factual, even if you don't agree which is fair enough.
One season back in this division simply cannot qualify you as being better, it just means you've had one better season that's all. You suggest this is simply because your fans but this doesn't mean that your right, because you're not.
Our nationally recognised training facilities and our nationally recognised academy are far, far better and so is our ability to attract better players as players know that when they come here that there's a very high probability that we will still be in this league next season. Sunderland just don't have that yet.
In addition, our recent history also suggests strongly to potential players that we are a club that's always capable of getting to Cup finals, where as your's doesn't.
So yes, you've had the better season, but that's where it ends. Any other comparison is just a joke.
With a better manager I believe that we would have made it to the FA Cup Final this year and we would have easily been higher up in the league, whereas you guys even with Capello at the helm wouldn't have done that much more as you more or less reached your full potential.
TB
**AV writes: At risk of stirring it again I think Sunderland have done well to stay up in the first year against the odds. It takes a fortune to bridge the gap and although they spent it I think many people - lots of Sunderland fans included - were not sure it had been spent wisely.
But it is the second season that is really difficult. The adrenaline has gone, a lot of players shown to be not good enough need to be replaced and that costs another fortune and unless you can get quality in then you are condemned to struggle. Look at Wigan and Reading in their second seasons. That is when the real battle starts.
Overall this season because of the economics and recent history Sunderland were widely tipped to go down and their fans would have accepted 17th so they have over-achieved.
Boro, with ten years spending behind them and two years into yet another rebuild were expected to be mid-table and fans would have accepted 12th so they have under-achieved.
Given what Gate says - rightly - about needing the support and the ground full(ish) next weekend, and bearing in mind it's a Bank Holiday, is this not just the time that Gibbo and Neil Bausor should be springing into action to think of and deploy all the best last minute deals they can think of to pull in as many folks as possible?
When the going gets (and remains stubbornly) tough...........
Richard - your league table shows Boro have been relatively 'successful' within the context of premiership history. Back in 1986 I would have bitten your hand off if you'd offered me that level of success over the following 20 years.
However my beef is that Boro constantly 'bubble under' in the 12th to 15th zone which makes for season after season of mundane nothing to aim for football or the 'squeaky bum' scenario of praying we dont go down, not a lot of fun.
Only twice have we made the top ten, which in my opinion despite our 'success' is an under achievement.
More on this when the season finishes no doubt.
Ha, you've certainly ruffled a few feathers here AV, great reading though! Seems to highlight the massive insecurities our mackem friends have.
Saturday was obviously disappointing, but again it is irrelevant if we are looking at the big picture. Next season is when Gareth will be judged and if we are in a similar position this time next year, it will be unnaceptable.
Bringing in a new man now would be putting us back to square one and facing at least one more year of rebuilding. Let's give Gareth a chance, I genuinely feel he has been unlucky this season, which is not to say he hasn't made mistakes.
One thing I am coming round to is the need to overhaul our central midfield. Arca's initial good form in that position is increasingly looking like a flash in the pan. That's where we need to strengthen in the summer, I'm happy with the rest of the squad.
This season has been unusual in the gap between top middle and bottom groupings of the table. Normally we would have had two or three big clubs for company at this stage of the season.
My fear is that the sleeping giants wake up and with their resources condemn us to the fringes. Teams such as Toon, Villa, West Ham, Citeh, Everton kept us company on a regular basis, even this season we have had Spurs and Toon amongst us but at this stage it is all the lodgers down at the bottom. Of those we are the longest serving team who have not yoyo'ed for ten years.
To our Sunderland visitors well done this season, as AV states above, next season may be harder.
It is now up to us to deliver on the pitch. It is not the absence of fans that has been the problem, it is the non appearance of the players. Put in a couple of performances to send the fans away happy for the summer.
Relegation is unlikley but is possible. We have normally managed one decent home match at the fag end of the season, relegation or staying up because teams are even worse than us would be a very poor way to finish. If we dont get another point we deserve to go down.
A GOALKEEPER A GOALKEEPER A GOALKEEPER
Been away so missed the match. It sounds typical derby blood and thunder, we were lucky to get back in it and then got caught napping late on again (surprise).
Reading through the comments has been interesting. It seems that Boro fans can see their own sides faults, be objective about our problems and our position and where we lost the match and give praise where due to a hard working if ordinary Sunderland side.
But the Mackems all come on foaming at the mouth and just spout insults and drivel, all the mutant stuff. I'm surprised AV lets them to be fair.
I am surprised that they can't see the points either AV or posters on here are making. They are supposed to be knowledgeable about football (I always found the ones at work easy to banter with and quite realistic) but they are starting to sound a lot like their deluded stripy cousins these days. Good reading though. Very funny.
Keep up the good work.
Phil, are you suggesting we play with three keepers? A little McClarenesque for my liking!!
More seriously, a new keeper may be required but it is not the answer to all our ills. GS has a lot to do this Summer, new players, new tactics, new mental strength.........
I must add that when I say i'm happy with the squad bar the central midfield, I am taking it as automatic that we need a new keeper. Though I wouldn't be devastated if Schwarzer signed on again.
Welljust when everybody was writing "we are safe for the season" look what happens. We are where we deserve to be for the overall rubbish that has been served over the season.
YES an odd few good games and points against the top sides but against battlers we are not up to it. Where are all those who criticised me for my comments about the midfield, goalkeeper. Everything comes to bear in the end. and this end is a little to close for comfort.
We were ahead of both Newcastle and Sunderland and now we dont even have that satisfaction. Unless the BORO can bring in some quality next season (and that will only happen if we are in the premiership) then we are in for much of the same. We have to many mediocre players.
Only hope we get something from the last two games.
1. There was only one end in the SOS with empty seats on Saturday.
2. Sunderland have played in front of more empty seats at the SOS than Boro ever have at the Riverside.
3. By population Boro have a better support than Sunderland.
**AV writes: One thing I noted but never got around to writing was the very clever way that Sunderland have configured their stadium so that the relatively expensive non-ST seats most likely to be empty are above and behind the camera gantry and press box so virtually invisible to lazy hacks.
At the Riverside in contrast it is impossible to miss the red acres when there is a low turn out. That is one reason to create a family enclosure in the East Stand.
"Sunderland have played in front of more empty seats at the SOS than Boro ever have at the Riverside."
"By population Boro have a better support than Sunderland"
Good grief, what idiotic things to post. Ra ra ra (waves foam hand and adjusts red and white wig!)
FTM
11,450 Sunderland V Chester City August 24, 2004. Would you like me to do the maths for the empty seats?
Boro population = 138,000
Average attendance 08/09 = 26,765
Percentage attending games = 19.39%
Sunderland population = 284,000
Average attendance 08/09 = 43,097
Percentage attending games = 15.18%
"Good grief, what idiotic things to post. Ra ra ra (waves foam hand and adjusts red and white wig!)" - please do carry on this is most enlightening.
AV's comments about seating arrangement makes interesting reading.
Derby's ground is based on ours with the exception of the corner between the main and new Holgate stands. At Derby that area is taken up by corporate hospitality making the capacity 1800 less.
Despite that a crowd of 26000 makes Pride Park look quite full. They have two banks of hardcore supporters, one behind the goal as at Boro, the other by the away fans.
This, along with the actions AV describes, gives the impression of a larger crowd. You could see the effect this season as the Rams have been really well supported.
Hello again Dave Connor. I wondered where you had got to. 'Where are we all' you ask. Well I'm still here and stand by my comments on the goalkeeper. If the reports are to be believed, maybe those well known 'mugs' Bayern Munich and Fiorentina disagree with your wisdom on this subject.
As for the midfield, Stevie Wonder can see that we have struggled and are consistently out-fought andf out-thought. This is the area where major surgery is needed in the close season.
I think we already have enough points (closes eyes tightly, crosses fingers and clenches bum cheeks) to avoid the drop. With my 'glass half full' view I still think Gates will do a good job but next season is critical for his and the clubs future.
"Rubbish"; perhaps on occasions but I have seen glimpses this season that fill me with hope that we are moving forward. Having said that we still witness the occasional spineless capitulation and clueless approach to teams who come and shut up shop. Hence we are where we are.
Anyway, enough for now; welcome back, you seem a decent bloke and I look forward to disagreeing with you in the future!
That should of course read "07/08".
"There was only one end in the SOS with empty seats on Saturday." - you failed to paraphrase that one.
"do carry on this is most enlightening."
Northampton at home. massive Carling Cup crowd 3,918.
Shall we discuss the percentage rate of your support in the eighties? Ra ra ra..............................
FTM
**AV writes: If you want to Google that Northampton match again take a note of the date. There may have been a reason that a lot of people didn't feel like going to the game that night.
Have got to say that the Mackems and the Mags, and us to a certain degree are missing the point here.
Nobody remembers if you finsh between places 7/8 to 16/17. It does not matter if you nearly get into Europe or nearly avoided relegation. Progress has to be made. We are not making that at this moment in time.
What really winds me up is our neighbours to the north and their chants of stadium capacity, crowd size against nobodies when they play in the championship or below. So called big teams with so called bigger fans. HA.
The only stat that matters and the one people can all remember is the last time you won a trophy. I can remember that, most Boro fans can remember that, even my kids can remember it.
With our two so-called rivals fans it is their grandparents and great grand parents who can just about remember when that happened. Whos the big club now?
"our two so-called rivals fans it is their grandparents and great grand parents who can just about remember when that happened. Whos the big club now?"
Grandparents..great grandparents.... is this another case of the Teesside propaganda machine spinning more lies and falsehoods.You people are well known for making up your own rules and "time constraints".
Anyway the "cup" you won has very little credibility and you know it. It is by and large contested by reserve team players.
Your fans know this because they were moaning about Boro not fielding a full team when they were knocked out of the competitions over the last year against Spurs. I rest my case.
Later peeps!
FTM
There was still more empty seats at the SOS for the Chester game, 37,550 to be exact. There you go I've done it for you.
I'm quite happy to discuss 80s attendances if you wish.
How about this one for a start:
86/87 average attendance at Joker Park = 13,601.
However, I would prefer to keep things "up to date". As of now, Boro are better supported than Sunlun. Despite taking 128 years to win a trophy. Some achievement that I'd say. What do you reckon?
my dad is bigger than you dad!
This is pathetic!
We have had spells of Magpies and Mackems on the board at different times with stats and opinions flying backwards and forwards.
There is some irony in the fact we are not really talking about which is the biggest club for its catchment area, which is top dog over the last 5, 10, 20, million years.
We are talking about who underachieved the least over recent years. That we won the Carling Cup and lost in four finals makes us top dogs in our eyes (forget 128 years of winning chuff all).
Toon are because they have a big ground and huge catchment area (forget they havent won anything since black and white TV).
The Mackems are on the march under Keane and Quinn, next year top six, the year after intergalictic champions beating the Klingons in a two leg final.
We should be in the top ten nearly every season, the mackems shouldnt have their fingers crossed that Derby prove even more pitiful than they were, Toon shouldnt be praying for King Kev to revive their fortunes.
We have all underachieved in our own way. We in the North-east think of ourselves as a hotbed of football but we pale in comparison with the M62 corridor with ManU, Citeh, Lpool and Everton plus other Lancastrian clubs Wigan, Bolton Blackburn in the premiership (and Rochdale, Oldham, Tranmere, Preston, Blackpool etc as league clubs)
When all three of the larger clubs are in the top ten then we can properly start spouting about who is the top team.
But no-one can take away the fact we have won a trophy in living memory, Michale Mouselike it may be but we all know that Shearer would have loved to get his hands on it and the Mackems would not have refused to go to cardiff because it is worthless.
AV
Now that everyone has had their bit of fun can we now move on from this Mags'n'Mackems thread?
I know it grew out of the disaster that was last Saturday but we need to move on.
We can't do anything about that now, we're deep in the poo and we need to focus on Pompey and then Citeh.
On the latter, I think that the news about Sven getting the boot isn't good for us. There seems to be some sort of fans backlash being worked up and a few players getting in on the act.
The last thing we need is a motivated Citeh team turning up with busloads of Mancs (as opposed to busloads from the Home Counties when ManUre visit) on the final day looking for a big performance and win to give Sven a send off/stick one up Shinawatra.
But it's Pompey first and another (!?!) opportunity to make the Citeh game irrelevant by winning and surviving.
Glad that Luke Young has come out and agreed with us about marking the non-scorer 'Zones'. I hope that's being addressed at Hurworth this week along with a lot of other stuff.
I've already tried to move the debate on earlier in this thread by saying how I think we ought to line up and play so just two more things.
Firstly, I don't want to hear or read any crap out of manager, players, coaches, Count DracuLamb or MFC 'PR' this week. It's just a wind up and far too often has preceded yet another disaster.
As much as needs to be said is:
"We realise the position we're in and how the fans feel about it. We feel the same and want to put it right.
"We know what we have to do - win against Pompey - and all our efforts are fixed on that and nothing else. We want the fans to leave after the game satisfied and happy with this game and the result - even if we know they aren't about the rest of the season.
"We plan and are preparing to succeed. But if we don't no-one will be able to say it's for lack of effort and preparation in training or giving our all, applying our skills and best organisation and being focused for the full 90+ minutes on Saturday.
"We will put on a controlled, postive display - attacking as much as we can and defending properly as we must - that also shows that we know our Prem lives depend on it."
Secondly, I take what Gate has said about having the crowd there and giving the team the backing needed.
Whatever the shortcomings and differences of views we all want Boro in the Prem. We can have the disputes and blood letting later when we're safe for another season - now is the time to suspend the debates and recriminations, no matter how richly deserved, and pull together.
So, Phil and I have decided that we have to be there on Saturday. Bought tickets for the South Stand this morning.
A decent post from Ian Gill until he wrote "But no-one can take away the fact we have won a trophy in living memory,"
Ahhhh, the Teesside time constraint again, pity you are wrong about the living memory bit especially as Sunderland and Newcastle have won trophies "in your lifetime" Mr Gill.
FTM
Pity that this blog has been invaded by idiots from up the A19, when in reality no one in the Boro gives a monkeys about Sunderland, the town or its football team.
The Barcodes are more fun however, watching their comedy circus over the years has provided a certain degree of amusement it has to be said.
Anyhow, the point here is the rapid decline of Boro. We are definately now in a downward spiral on all fronts. Despite the odd glimse of quality on the field, the whole bigger picture is a mess.
Results, PR, attendances, team motivation etc are all on the downturn. We are very close to the relegation trapdoor. If we escape as expected then we will almost certainly be dragged down next season if the current reversal of progress continues.
There has been no tangible indication that anything is changing or improving in the last 12 months. Something significant must happen before next season.
My finger is pointing at the very inexperienced management team. I blame them for everything. That responsibility comes with the term ''Management''.
I gladly would welcome them back after they have learned their trade and proven themselves in the lower leagues (eg. Mogga), but serving an apprenticeship in the premiership is an experiment that will end in disaster.
Coops and the Gate were heros of mine as players but their current roles are damaging the club, and the club comes first. The most alarming thing is the obvious inability to consistantly motivate the players. Basic stuff I would have thought. Hopefully Gibbo will see the light.
Ahhhh, the Mackem "move on the discussion, as I can't respond to your original points"
"Anyway the "cup" you won has very little credibility and you know it. It is by and large contested by reserve team players." 28/08/2007 Carling Cup Luton Town 3 Sunlun 0
This really does write itself.
FTM
You cant resent my having a little bit of fun. Sadly it is a reflection of the state of North East football that our cup win is the only thing any of us have won in many year.
Truth is I remember the opposition fans laughing as Wynn Davies charged about away from home keeping their defence honest as Toon won the Fairs Cup and being pleased.
I remember being in Leeds when Porterfield scored in the cup final and enjoying the moment. Walking round on the night was a real pleasure to see all the 'smiling' faces.
But those things were before many of todays fans were born so forgive me my bit of fun at the end but sadly the rest is too true to be funny or offensive.
Otley..
a Boro "reserve "team played a Notts County "reserve" team in the much sought after Carling Cup in 2006.
final score
Middlesbrough 0 Notts County 1
...snap
FTM
Hey Nigel you may have hit on something there. Three keepers might at least stop the added time bloopers!
And I would like GS to knock on the head all this over the top back slapping and celebrating when they manage to score, for some reason they think the game is over, and then bingo,we concede... due to lack of concentration. The time for that is when the final whistle blows
just to reiterate John Powls point of us fans being behind the team to enable safety is reached.
Try and forget what's gone before, fill the ground and roar the boys home from start to finish. I know I will after a good scoop in the Navi (i'll need it!!).
COME ON!!!!!!
FTM - you have not commented on my original 2 points:
"Sunderland have played in front of more empty seats at the SOS than Boro ever have at the Riverside."
"By population Boro have a better support than Sunderland"
I'll take that as an agreement.
Otley
31,000 empty seats of your percentage population as opposed to 37,000 empty seats of our larger population. You are wrong again. Your percentage of empty seats is greater. (Is counting empty seats a new Teesside thing?)
You have miles of territory to draw your fans. You have no Premier league club within you for nearly 40 miles north and 50 miles south. Teesside is massive so no playing that we are only a small town club card because that is garbage.
By your flawed argument Tottenham should have 300,000 at every home match.
Until next season
FTM
Stevo.I read your post with interest. The results and league table tell you that at best we are going nowhere or at worst slipping badly.That I agree with.
I do not agree with your negative comment about the clubs PR.As far as I can see Neil Bausor has made a big improvement.
However the reason I am posting this is to take issue with this widely held assumption that Southgate fails to consistently motivate the team because I believe that you are totally barking up the wrong tree.
We have some skilful players who when given space or when the opposition allow us to play look good hence our performance agaist the good footballing teams.
Where the opposition are defensive, physical and close the space in midfield we have failed over and over again.They are not individually in certain cases and collectively as a team good enough to prevail.
An example is Julio Arca. Without doubt a skilful little player when given time and space on the ball. Where he is closed down quickly he is more of a liability to his own team.
So I dont think that the players are not trying or are unmotivated. I think the answer is more basic than that. The league table tells you that they are not good enough and thats why we're in the position we are.
Valid points also Stockton Red.
Diffent take on the same problem though eh? I, maybe wrongly, still think some of our players are above average for the premiership - outside the top six that is.
My observations are that they DO underperform, regularly switch off before the 90 mins up, sometimes dont turn up for an entire 45 mins (could be either half), and bottle it against any enthusiastic challenge from mediocre opposition. Only when a big team comes along do they look even remotely interested in having a go. So yes I ultimately blame the management for that.
If your take on the team is that they are not actually good enough, then that problem also comes under the responsibility of the management.
Agree that Arca is out of his depth. Again its the manager that insists on playing him....
Whichever way you look at it, its time to bring in some nouse and experience to the club.
In the meantime, Im with the majority of fans and will be behind the team 100% over the next two games. Even Arca - if he plays.....*groan*
FTM
"By your flawed argument"
"You have no Premier league club within you for nearly 40 miles north and 50 miles south."
By your unflawed logic that means Boro would have a captment area from Central Leeds to Central Sunderland. Come on sunshine get real.
"Teesside is massive" why do you insist on making false statments like this withouth anything to back them up?
Teesside Population = 365,323 FACT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teesside
Sunlun - gather their support from Durham, Sunderland and South Tyneside - which has a population of at least twice that of Teesside.
Tottenham's gound only holds 35,000.
Otley.
Anyone who uses Wiki as a source of information is a doughnut. I take it that you do know what "Wiki" means?
FTM - yes I do.
I can take the figures from the 2001 census if you like?
Are you going to prove these two statements you ridiculed untrue:
"Sunderland have played in front of more empty seats at the SOS than Boro ever have at the Riverside."
"By population Boro have a better support than Sunderland"
Or are you going to ponce about avoiding them for the rest of your days?
Stevo,
I'll put a few questions with my answers which will explain why we are not good enough rather than lacking motivation from the manager.
1.- are we clinical in front of goal? No
2.Do we have a player with an aerial threat in our forwards? No
3.Are we good enough in central midfield? No
4.do we score enough goals from midfield? No
5 Are we vulnerable off set plays? Yes
These are the reasons we are where we are. Now of course all of these matters are down ultimately to the manager but it is a lack of quality in these areas of the game that are the problem in my view.
Reading some of the report leaves me quite mystified.
How can Sunderland be called a glorified championship side? We are safe from relegation, Boro aren't. We deserve to be safe, the never say die attitude fighting right till the end has paid dividents this season. If Boro had the same approach it could quite easily been 2-1 and 2-2.
It cost you and you couldn't beat us this season because of it. In all fairness you deserved to win earlier in the season when you dominated for most of the match but a sensational goal saved us. whereas last Saturday we totally outclassed you.
Also that Kenwyne Jones is actually an outstanding player - not a Primark Drogba - he's by far better than any striker playing for Boro. And whenever have boro been "the best team outside the top four" ? What planet are you on.
And why, as most (not all), but most can't you accept that the better team won? We havn't beat you for a while and our record hasn't been the best but the one time we do win, there is an excuse (bad defending, eeper etc).
Why do most of the comments on here from Boro supporters seem bitter about something, like they have a chip on their shoulder because they'll never be as big club as Sunderland or Newcastle and will never mean any where near as much the real derby?
Only a minority of Boro supporters ever seem to be able to talk football, for those I do hope boro stay up because it was a cracking match with a great atmosphere and i would thoroughly look forward to more.
But most seem to jump at the chance of taking the mick,and living in Billingham there have been plenty willing dish the insults when we were down in the championshoip or relegation zones but never seem to be able to handle it when they get some stick.
Hopefully in future reports, some of these deluded ideas will be gone, and some credit can be given where due.
"How can Sunderland be called a glorified championship side?" - err because you played in the Championship last year and are now having your 1st consectutive season in the top flight for 5 years.
"the best team outside the top four" - this was a comment made by a Sky pundit, not Boro fans.
"They'll never be as big club as Sunderland or Newcastle" since when has any Boro fan ever claimed this? We are a small town in Yorkshire, which just happens to have better support per population than those two huge clubs.
A derby is played by two rival teams in the same city or town. Whatever you want to call it, you still got whacked 2-0.
**AV writes: There was some floating stuff I tried to tidy up. Is that better?
"By population Boro have a better support than Sunderland"
Says you, Well done. Why dont you award yourself one of these imaginary trophies that you tend to do when it suits to go along with all your "top dog trophies".
"We are a small town in Yorkshire" Hahahaha, Otley playing the small minded, small time charlie trick again.
Go and count empty seats you clown!
FTM
"By population Boro have a better support than Sunderland" - says fact. Here they are again, as you seen to be ignoring them:
"We are a small town in Yorkshire" -look these are called "FACTS".
Boro population = 138,000
Average attendance 08/09 = 26,765
Percentage attending games = 19.39%
Sunderland population = 284,000
Average attendance 08/09 = 43,097
Percentage attending games = 15.18%
I prefer counting them at the SOS, Chester game, 37,550 to be exact.
Back below us again in the league I see.