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Untypical Boro is a lively topical blog by the Evening Gazette's award winning football columnist Anthony Vickers that aims to get behind the headlines to flesh out the stories that Boro fans are talking about.

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Southgate And The Zen of Boro

Posted by on April 6, 2008 11:24 PM | 

GARETH Southgate is halfway to understanding the zen of Boro. Asked on Match of the Day 2 after the stirring 2-2 monstering of Manchester United "can you sum up the enigma that is Middlesbrough in less than 20 words?" he gave just one: "no - and that is 19 less than you offered." That shows honesty, self awareness and humilty and a certain level of insight into the inpenetrable nature of the riddle and reveals that he is coming to terms with the question.

After eight years as player and boss he has seen it all, the frustrations and the glories, the coupon busting wins against all the odds and the inexplicable craven capitulations at the beckoning open doors of success - Cardiff, Steaua, Eindhoven, Cardiff again - and has had to cope with the turmoil of the terraces that goes with that too. He has broken down the intellectual and emotional impact of that and reduced his experience to one word. That is good.

But all true Teesside zen masters of the Holgate know the true essence of the dichotomy is actually summed up in two: "typical Boro," a knowing phrase that pronounced correctly is spat out like an obscenity that combines disgust, betrayal, righteous anger, world weary cynicism, bloody-minded defiance and a kernel of hope, an eternal flame of perverse optimism that can be fanned into glorious life by defeat as readily as victory. We shall overcome. Erimus. The nature of the club, the strength, is derived from a unity in moments of despair.

Southgate is starting to understand the depth of the enigma which is a start. Steve McClaren and Bryan Robson - the two most successful managers in the club's history - never even acknowledged there was a question, let alone tried to grasp the answer.

I like Gareth Southgate. He is honest and open in answering even the most difficult questions in a way that is rare with managers and even though that opens you to quite vicious attacks from supporters and sneering ones from the press when things are going wrong he has never retreated from that during the tough times. He has a dry sense of humour, a dignity in defeat and a willingness to accept that he is still learning. His post-match interviews are articulate, frank and press a lot of emotional buttons that suggest he is acutely aware of how the supporters are reading the situation. On the Beeb after the Man United game for instance he touched on the impact of the Cardiff game in way that suggested he understood its political and emotional impact beyond the result on the day.

One day he could be a true zen master and unravel the enigma. What about you? Can you do it in 20 words? I'm bloody sure I can't.

Some observations:

"Boro Goal Machine" Alves is a Brazilian blend of Bernie and Ravanelli. He has the uncanny and uncoachable Slavenesque ability to be in the right place at the right time allied with the power, poise and clinical finishing of the ruthless Italian finisher. For both goals he made the right runs before the ball broke and was on the spot to ram them home in style. It was inspirational.

There is an argument that it is a learned response, that he has studied Boro in recent weeks, has absorbed the way the team play, has anticipated the kind of moves and the nature of the knock downs and through balls but that is far-fetched over analysis. He has qualities that can be coached: movement, strength on the ball, first touch, finishing ... but what will make him worth the £13m is an instinct to be where the second ball lands, an innate ability to be in the right place in the right time. That is something Boro haven't had since Slaven and is an incredible asset. We have said all along that he will come good. Most of us anyway.

His ability to rattle the woodwork last week was noted and seen as a plus. He was just getting his eye in. Now with fitness levels up and galvanised by a goal or two there will be no stopping him. Now, if only he could head the ball....

MotD2: The BBC branch of the Boro Supporters Club? At times it sounds that way. Both Lee Dixon and Gavin Peacock were gushing in their praise for Boro, which is nice. Both were excited by Boro's positive approach, pace getting forward, willingness to take the game to United and the number of chances created. And they didn't even even pick out a couple of individuals to slag off. They would get slaughtered on Teesside for being bloody ra-ras.

Mad Dog Bites the Granny Botherer: Well, he didn't bite him, it was worse than that - he laughed in his face. Wayne Rooney was giving the lip readers in the armchair audience apoplexy with his foul mouthed invective after being unceremoniously brushed aside again, effing and blinding and looking for trouble and the uber-cool Alpine hardman looked at the emotionally incontinent spud-faced Scouse, sneered and laughed in his face. Quality. It left Rooney incandescent and charging around in an undisciplined rage and put Poggy well and truely in control in that particular battle.


**OVER TO YOU - can you answer the Beeb's Boro enigma and sum up Boro in 20 words? Or get with the zen of the club and answer in haiku form?

Comments (85)

BoroWestOz wrote...

Nice to see my forecast after last weeks game that 'Alves would come good', looks like coming good, and it was good to see that Boateng was in the thick of things again.

Posted by: BoroWestOz  | April 7, 2008 1:38 AM

Jarkko wrote...

"We All Know He'll Come Good" -now he has! That's what you AV said in March! You were just spot on on Afonso ALves then!!!

After seeing Man United to outplay Roma on Wednesday, I thought that United and Ronaldo are just the most superior team of the modern football. So I rate the brace of Alves even higher than Ravanelli's goals against Liverpool on his debut. A true classic of a game.

Finally the Samba days are back. As Tuncay is another World Class player think about next season. And our GS will be as good for the Boro as Wenderer have been at Arsenal!

One World Class midfielder - like Ronaldinho for example - to the right side of midfield will make Boro a top six team in maximum of two years.

Up the Boro!!!

Posted by: Jarkko  | April 7, 2008 6:29 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

I too liked Gate's response on MotD last night.

Now, if he understands that he doesn't understand that is conscious incompetence (one better than unconscious imcompetence).

He has shown some signs of conscious competence - as you would expect from someone learning; but how long will the learning process take?

He needs - and we need him - to move quickly to unconscious competence; where the basics are just done right week in week out and he can concentrate on the final 5% where inspiration takes over from perspiration.

I am currently working on a book of haiku. I will have to see if I can produce a 17 syllable answer to the Beeb interviewer's question!

**AV writes: Understanding you don't understand is a transcendenatl moment on the path to enlightenment. Compared to some he is practically a shamanic master.

Here's my haiku.....

Crowds hearts soar
Incisors shattered
Typical Boro

Posted by: John Powls  | April 7, 2008 7:58 AM

John Donovan wrote...

If there is anyone on earth who can sum up the Boro then I would love to meet them, but that for me is part of my love for the team.

I would love a level of consistency, and live in hope that some day we may reach it, because when we do we will find a permanent home in the upper reaches of the Premier league.

The 2 goals from AA should be looked at closely. He was under pressure from defenders for both yet kept good close control and beat an excellent keeper with ease.

BORO'S GOAL MACHINE ?

OH YES !!!

Posted by: John Donovan  | April 7, 2008 8:39 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

As promised - Boro haiku

scream silent ever
Erimus under your breath
typical Boro


**AV writes: I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.

Posted by: John Powls  | April 7, 2008 8:58 AM

davwind wrote...

It's finally nice to read positive comments about Southgate. The guy is obviously a "football man" who wants his team to reflect the high standards he achieved as a player. Southgate like his team worked very hard.

I thought yesterdays performance was excellent with THE BOAT great (if only he could find a red shirt after all the tackles he puts in!!!) and ALVES constant running aswell as world class finishes.

The difference in the play of the team from MCLAREN and even ROBSON is really pleasing. This team can only get better as they grow together, even the options on the bench allow for optimism.

Have we got a playmaker lined up to replace ROCKY? Will he try DOWNING in the middle with JINKY on his outside? Will TUNCAY get a chance to play in his favoured behind the front two role? Will MIDO leave the parmo's alone during the summer? All these options we've never had before. Exciting times ahead me thinks.

Posted by: davwind  | April 7, 2008 9:05 AM

Jarkko wrote...

davwind,

Totally agree with you. For example Mido was a great signing in the Autumn - now we even might forget him! Our attacking is so good at the moment that we can afford to let him have an operation now rather than Summer ...

I think this is the quickest Boro team for ages. One or two clever signing or academy stars and we have a troughly great team here.

Think about the Barcodes - they need a total overhaul in the sommer and the Black cats need £ 30 m to spend!

We just need the kids to grow under GS. Trust him - AV is totally right about GS here.

Up the Boro!

Posted by: Jarkko  | April 7, 2008 9:26 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Mad Dog Bites the Granny Botherer:

Yes AV Pogi was brilliant in winding up Rooney, it all added to the enjoyment of a fantastic match.

If we played like this every week, we would not be Boro would we?

It would be nice to think we could, however Man U came to the Riverside to win, most teams don't.

Alves finishing was pure quality, he cannot head a ball so keep it on the floor.

If only Alliadiare had taken one of his two golden chances we could have won.

Game typified by the Boats tackle on Evra.

Great game, great atmosphere.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 7, 2008 9:33 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Unable to grasp beauty
in thirty eight rendezvous
unless faced with big four
in the fretful sky[sports]

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | April 7, 2008 9:38 AM

Neil (Yarm) wrote...

I didn't go to the game yesterday as I said I wouldn’t on the previous blog (under my Neil (Baku) pseudonym).

However I watched on TV, knowing in my heart of hearts I should have been there, and praying that typical Boro would rise on the day. My prayers were answered.

But here we go again. A masterful performance against arguably the best club side in the world, yet we still will not know which Boro will get off the bus next week?

It is no wonder that Southgate can't fathom the unfathomable; Boro teams are and always have been this way, something that has baffled managers, coaches, and the fans for decades.

You all know what I mean. We are at the very same place we've been so many times before, played one of the big boys, monstered them (to coin Vic's phrase) only to sink back into relative mediocrity.

20 words to describe the enigma that is Boro?? Yerjokinarntyer?

Posted by: Neil (Yarm)  | April 7, 2008 9:47 AM

Terry Simpson wrote...

The Boro players are quite simply lazy gets unless they are playing a "top team".

Nice to see the Boro fans getting carried away after one result again. Jarkko wrote "Think about the Barcodes - they need a total overhaul in the sommer and the Black cats need £30m to spend! We just need the kids to grow under GS"

These "kids" are below the two mentioned teams in the league who have both incidentally won three games on the bounce.

All three teams are mid table no hopers and are full of overpaid under performing lazy gets.

Posted by: Terry Simpson  | April 7, 2008 9:59 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

just copying across what I added in the last entry (missed the new one!)

I hope John Powls' appearance in the Observer doesn't give the impression that all Boro fans are as dismissive of Arca and Rochemback's (the latter of which it looks like we will be losing) talents as himself.

Calling them the Tippy-Tappy twins totally understates their significant contributions. Arca did well yesterday, not back to his best, but the break has obviously done him good. The only time I can remember him giving the ball away yesterday was when he unfortunately slipped and some of his passing and vision was excellent.

Great performance all round, the whole midfield and attack did very well, only a couple of lapses at the back let us down, but a point was a fair result.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | April 7, 2008 10:05 AM

Brian Prest wrote...

Caught the game up here on Sky - the best I've seen for a long time, better even than Boro's second half against Chelsea.

Apart from the nervy first 10 minutes or so, the team were fantastic. Downing showed what he is all about, Boateng belied his years (if only he was 5 years younger), Pogi had Rooney in his pocket for most of the game and Ronaldo had a penalty claim disallowed - YES!

Added to that two superb strikes from Alves (almost three) and excellent support from the rest of the team - this was the performance we've been waiting all season for.

I'm only sorry we are near the end of the season just as things are starting to come good.

Posted by: Brian Prest  | April 7, 2008 10:05 AM

Bomber wrote...

Boro shines sometimes
Easy victory? Never!
Much pain on way home

Posted by: Bomber  | April 7, 2008 10:11 AM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

Recalling AV’s previous threads : “Alves we know he’ll come good” and “Focus minds on success”, how appropriate, and relevant, the subjects of discussion are acutely manifested today after the game against the mighty Manchester United.

Who would have thought Boro would have the mental strength to come back from an early goal? Who would have thought Alves would come good and be our goal scoring hero (well, he did cost a lot of money!)

I fully understand the posters who quote the likes of “I have had enough”, and “I am not renewing my season ticket after umpteen years of loyalty”, and “I am disillusioned of the whole Premier League monster..”.

There have been enough disappointments to scare off the most ardent of fans. And there was an interesting post by one guy, from Didcot, on BBC “text commentary” yesterday to highlight the frustration we all feel

"If I was a Boro fan, having seen them see off Arsenal and now playing so well against the current champions, I'd be sick to the stomach at the very thought of that dismal, drab performance when it really mattered against Cardiff in the Cup." Ouch, for the painful reminder. We were, still are, sick to the stomach.

But come on, look at the response since then, against Villa, Arsenal, Chelsea and United. Three points from twelve is scant reward for the excellent performances Boro have put in.

And before there is a tide of “excellent performances are one thing, results are another”, I would counter that by suggesting that excellent performances, consistently, are the bedrock of a team’s future. Gilt edge chances created will eventually be converted.

I recall attending some awful performances where we have ‘won’ three points. Away to Man City 0-1 when Sun Ji Hai ‘scored’ for Boro. No shots on target, won 1-0. Did anyone feel any pride after that game?

I felt far more pride after each game, losing to Chelsea, drawing with Villa, and Arsenal, and against Man U. Not one victory in those four games, but a very encouraging foundation for the future, especially as three of those games were away from home.

I very much appreciate TB’s post, citing the need to adopt the “winning attitude”. I agree with that viewpoint 100%, as my recent posts relating to “don’t sit back” fully endorse.

Full marks to Gareth Southgate, and his managerial team for the recovery from a potentially disastrous situation. I too have felt the frustration of the under achievement of this season, in general.

However I look at a lot of good performances in recent months, against the top teams especially, and I take that as very good reason to renew my season ticket.

I have to say, I feel some sympathy with Tuncay, after he has been a revelation since given a regular run in the team. It seems like he will be competing with Ali rather than Alves for a place in the starting eleven.

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | April 7, 2008 10:16 AM

Jarkko wrote...

Terry,

I used to dream about the players we had in the past - Craig Johnston, Cummins, Souness, Mowbray, Ravanelli, etc but I think Downing is the best player ever coming from the academy.

Wheater is nearly as good, Taylor and Johnson are there about. We have never had so many good kids coming through.

I even missed Viduka last Autumn - but not any more. Less injures now and much more space in the attack!

We might even stop missing Juninho (nearly!) one day. But let's see that next year! Why be sceptical?

Also we have (out)played Arsenal, Chelsea and Man U while Boro's NE neighbours have had easier matches. And do you think they will continue to win all the time?

Boro need no acrobatics to blossom next year.

PS. AV, have you had any time to compare the average ages of the GS, J Charlton and Robbo's teams...

**AV writes: No but I will. Sounds like a good one for the close season when I can get all the book out.

Posted by: Jarkko  | April 7, 2008 10:41 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

There is no rhyme or reason to describe "typical Boro".

But AV, since you've taken us for a poetic stroll down the enigmatic Boro road, then here are my under-20 words worth.

These 15 minutes of fame
in a can't win game
will mask our losing curse
against teams much worse

Posted by: Werdermouth  | April 7, 2008 10:47 AM

Scott Jackson wrote...

I don't suppose there's a link anywhere to the Rooney and Pogatetz incident? Looked funny from where I was watching it but wouldn't mind another look.

Posted by: Scott Jackson  | April 7, 2008 11:08 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Sweat Jesus! I think Davwind has found the answer!!!!!!
Like we did with Zenden- move Downing inside with Johnson wide left! and play Tuncay in his favoured possition behind the front 2!

Pure Genius !

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | April 7, 2008 11:10 AM

Greeny wrote...

Vicks, spot on comments - once again you have put into print what most of us have been thinking.

Mind you, when Aliadiere missed badly with the score on 0-1, I felt physically sick and thought, "here we go again". The fact is, the initial line up with Alves as lone striker was never going to work. The change of formation suited Alves and we really have to build the team around him if we want to make the most of the huge investment.

It does present something of a dilemma. Who do you play along side him ? Aliadiere is a fast, skilfull player who runs himself into the ground for the cause, and, of the current crew, he gets my vote as striking partner. The fact is though, his brains evapourate when he gets in front of goal. We cannot be reliant on one man to score the goals next season, especially as we get so few from midfield.

If Southgate is to develop into a top manager, he is going to have to solve this little problem and figure out what to do with Mido (too fat and mouthy) and Tuncay (is he a luxury we can afford?).

Whilst he's thinking about that issue, GS should be persuading George to stay for a couple of more years - he was outstanding again yesterday.

Posted by: Greeny  | April 7, 2008 11:13 AM

mark j wrote...

What a game! Icant believe that was our Boro out there !Amazing! United were lucky to get a point towards the finish as we had a stack of chances.

Anyone who has not read davwind's ideas on team formation should have a look . I think he has cracked it in as far as getting our best attacking players on the pitch all at once!

It may have seemed to the slow human eye that Southgate was waving his arms at the team in a sodden suit but for a second I saw him gliding above the ground in silence like a kestrel wearing a gown of owl feathers.

And Fergie looked like a stuffed rabbit.

Posted by: mark j  | April 7, 2008 11:22 AM

Denzil wrote...

It feels like the component parts of the jigsaw are starting to come together. Solid centre halves, full backs who strive to get forward to overlap and deliver quality, pace and trickery in midfield and finally someone with guile, pace anp power up front who can finish his tea!

Unlike some managers who have spent cash like its going out of fashion, Keano being a notable exaple, Gareth has taken his time and spent it wisely on key personnel taking the long term view for which I'm sure it will take fruition next season.

Yes there have been mistakes, the gook being the prime example, but no-one gets everyone right, just ask Fergie about goalkeepers. A couple of key additions next season in centre midfield and goalkeeper and I can see us challenging top half and touch wood playing like we did yesterday on a far more consistent basis.

I guess in that respect we've also got Gibbo, again, to thank for not pressing the panic button and giving Gareth the cash. Look at Bolton an Fulham now. And maybe yes we should have got Alves in the summer, but he's here now and he'll be an awful lot better given the setling in period. Bring on next season!

I just found it hugely frustrating and ironic that we chose yesterday to so publically show the change from the Cardiff debarcle, two hrs before we could and should have been playing! Never mind, "Typical boro!

Posted by: Denzil  | April 7, 2008 11:25 AM

Nigel wrote...

Boro in 20 words here goes:

'A club lacking self belief,comfortable as under dogs, uncomfortable as favourites.'

That sums it up for me. The club - that is players, management and most importantly the fans - have the ghost of 100 years of failure behind them.

We are geared up for failure, mentally. Therefore when success appears on the horizon such as the Cardiff match with the prospect of winning the FA cup we freeze. There was a lack of belief among the crowd that day as well as the players.

So Man Utd turn up no expectation to win, therefore no pressure - result excellent performance. Reading turn up in bad form haven't won for eons, 3 points for Boro expected, result, defeat.

Steve Gibson alongside Robbo and McClaren has created the infra-structure of a succesful premiership club, academy, training facilities, cash for top players, McClaren added a trophy.

However the hardest nut to crack when changing an organisation is the culture, if we are now at a point where everything is in place and the next step is a culture change then we have indeed come a long long way.

Whats more if GS has recognised that the next step is a change in culture then he has the potential to be the best Boro manager.

The signs look good to me, GS is everything AV described, he has all the qualities of a good leader except experience, but he seems to be a fast learner to me.

We all look in envy when we see Bolton finish in the top eight several seasons in a row, but now look at them, Sam Allardyce built nothing sustainable at Bolton. Where will Pompey be when Harry goes? Middle sized clubs come and go in the prem.

Boro may just be creating something which is sustainable and transends any one regime/manager. If that proves to be Steve Gibsons legacy that will prove he is a truely great chairman.

Yesterday's performance was great to watch, it wa great to have a striker on the pitch who can score, the presence of Alves can be a huge confidence boost to the team.
Arca and Boateng were great, so were the defence, an all round quality performance.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 7, 2008 11:25 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

I actually thought the early Man U goal was a good thing as it sorted the mentality of our boys out and made things uncomplicated and clear.

No messing aroung we need to push forward and score or we have lost the game already.

This attitude is what C.Ronaldo and friends start every game with and what Gate needs to brainwash into all of our team.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | April 7, 2008 11:26 AM

mark j wrote...

At the Riverside Man U and Arsenal came to win which made it almost like an away match for us in that we could play counter attacking football.

So we have got that side of things sorted- its when most teams come to the Riverside and play it tight that we find it harder.

We need a plan B [ B for Batter down the door]

Cant wait for the next match!

Posted by: mark j  | April 7, 2008 11:34 AM

stockton red wrote...

Neil( Yarm ). Please have a look at my reply to your posts on the last blog.Thanks

Posted by: stockton red  | April 7, 2008 12:36 PM

Teamunster wrote...

A great philosopher (or was it Ronan Keating?) once said - 'Life is a roller coaster, just got to ride it'

Sums the enigma that is Middlesbrough Football Club up quite well.

I can find millions of words to describe Boro but the key one missing is consistency!

Yesterdays game was excellent. Really enjoyed it. The enigma that is Middlesbrough Football club did us proud!

Posted by: Teamunster  | April 7, 2008 12:43 PM

jiffy wrote...

Alves looks to be settling in - he has finally realised his teammates only want to perform against the big boys. The rest of the time they just go out and pick up their pay check irrespective of what little they contribute.

What is so enigmatic about that?

I am sorry - yesterday's game should not have taken place - the real game was 200-odd miles south of the Riverside at Wembley.

Some people have short memories. I wont forgive and forget this time.

Posted by: jiffy  | April 7, 2008 12:44 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

Get over yourself Jiffy. This is one of the hardest working group of players I've seen at the Boro and they run themselves into the ground in most games.

Ok, quality and ideas can sometimes be lacking, but I really don't think lack of effort is an issue with Boro. It's all too easy to say they can't be bothered after a rubbish performance.

You could see the desire to win and team spirit when Alves scored, the majority of his team-mates rushed over and were delighted for him.

One of the good things about Gareth's reign has been the team spirit - very rarely does the whole team not celebrate a goal. Feel free to sulk if you like, but you are the one missing out and I don't think Boro will miss fans as negative as yourself.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | April 7, 2008 1:19 PM

dave wrote...

Can no one else see that southgate is just another Mclaren without uefa cup football?

Mowbray in for the 2009/2010 season.

Posted by: dave  | April 7, 2008 1:46 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Dave

Sorry, no I can't. Earlier in the season, after yet another home defeat to Villa, I posted that I wanted GS out, as did many others. I was wrong.

I honestly believe that he has the potential to become our best ever manager. The more I see of him the more I like him. Brilliant to see him have a go at Fergie on Sunday - it showed the steel many have accused him of lacking.

I believe that our recent performances in the league are the benchmark for how Boro will perform in most games in the future. Provided Gate can crack the enigma/consistency factor I think we're only a couple of players away from being a great side with a great manager.

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | April 7, 2008 2:15 PM

David Morrison wrote...

Southgate out? Are you mad?

We will be playing the best football in years to come that any one of us has ever seen. Forget Juninho, Emerson, Ravanelli, the brand Southgate is creating is of fast, committed attacking football and a team spirit where eveery one wants to fight when the chips are down and celebrate when we do well.

Woodgate didnt want to know so hes gone and there will be no prima donnas who think they are high and mighty. Pevious bosses have been over run by players, Robbo couldnt handle the big names and McClaren neither, SG can by the look of it so it brings a greater harmony.

We need to stick with him and support what he is trying to achieve. Boro can be one of the best in the premier league with this style so we surely must embrace it and go with him

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | April 7, 2008 2:31 PM

Nigel wrote...

Dave - What on earth are you talking about?

Southgate plays a far more exciting brand of football, he buys young players and when he speaks he is honest and open. Southgate and McClaren? Chalk and cheese.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 7, 2008 2:40 PM

red_rebel wrote...

I think Southgate realises what needs doing and has already made some of the major changes in reducing the average age and increasing the average speed.

The menatlity has been slowly changed from dark ultra-cautious McClaren negativity to a first instinct of getting it down and getting it forward.

We are very close to being a good team now but the next stage, getting the right players to come and pushing on into the second division of Euro challengers, will be far harder.

haiku:

lion caged by
barren Ayresome history
almost free

Posted by: red_rebel  | April 7, 2008 3:58 PM

BoroPhil wrote...

by the way, what's happened to Eric Paylor?

**AV writes: He is off sick but will be back fighting fit soon.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | April 7, 2008 4:02 PM

mark j wrote...

There were so many plus points against Man U I dont know where to start.

Clearly Southgate has got what he wanted out of the team. Man U threw everything they had at us and were lucky to escape with a draw.

I think my favourite bit was were Southgate told Fergie off. No respect for him or his team -we want to win so shut up and try and stop us!

The team performed as a unit at the highest level and looked mighty fine too.

Southgate give us a wave!

Posted by: mark j  | April 7, 2008 4:29 PM

John Powls wrote...

BoroPhil

What I wrote for The Observer - just as what I write on here - is my opinion only and I don't claim to aggrandise it more than that.

I thought Arca's display yesterday made part of my point for me. They're bad enough played in one's - played together they're a points costing disaster. But that's only my view and I know that others disagree.

We'll see where Gate stands at the end of the season. My money is on no option take up for Rocky and he's off on a Bosman and Arca back to The Mackems for more than we paid.

Just want to add to my earlier post that I thought Gate's choice of 4-3-3 to start was brave and the right shape to start with. It was a shame that we had to pull back to 4-4-2 quite so soon but again, it was the right thing to do in the circumstances.

I think that 4-3-3 would work better with a narrow midfield three of Stewie, The Boat or The Shawkster and O'Neil. Then we could use Tuncay and Aliadiere either side of Alves.

I've heard both versions of the O'Neil suspension - that it begins with the Spurs or after that with Notlob.

If he is missing at Spurs and Gate wants to try 4-3-3 again then he could go with Stewie, The Shawkster and The Boat and hope that The Boat doesn't add to his 9 yellows and be unavailable for Notlob. Both he and O'Neil missing for that game would be a problem.

If we continue with 4-4-2 because it seems the only thing that the players can be comfortable with at present, I am pleased that the notion I have been pushing for nearly a season now - Stewie inside Johnno in the old Bolo role - is gathering some support.

Posted by: John Powls  | April 7, 2008 4:38 PM

John Stone wrote...

I told you we would get a result !

Great end to end football,and we created more chances !

Afonso took his chances brilliantly,and with a bit of luck we would have won. Even Fergie was stunned,and thankful for a draw. Southgate is getting there and we must stick with him.

The "Boat" is rejuvenated and was excellent.

A right winger, two creative midfielders with pace and Peter Crouch will make us a formidable team next year

Posted by: John Stone  | April 7, 2008 4:57 PM

davwind wrote...

DAVE, you are the type of Boro fan that will have this club the next MAN CITY or NEWCASTLE. How long would you give MOGGA to build his side? Ten defeats and out?

I think we have at the helm a fully adopted BORO lad who knows this is a great opportunity for himself with a great chairman by his side.

He quoted FERGUSON a little while back, he said it takes three years to build a side. One year to get rid of the dead wood, one year to bring in the players you actually want and one year to gel. This quote was taken before the transfer window was introduced in its current format.

Lets get behind him and ride his "ROLLERCOASTER" because we aint far from being a good team. TUNCAY will be the difference next year, watch this space!!!

Posted by: davwind  | April 7, 2008 4:59 PM

jc wrote...

Riverside clucking
Sky does not fall on our heads!
The infant awakens

Posted by: jc  | April 7, 2008 5:03 PM

Andy (Hants) wrote...

Dave. No, no-one can see that, only you and maybe Jiffy.

I've been supporting the Boro for far too long not to forgive. Based on that criteria, most of us would have stopped supporting them after 6 months!!

Celebrate the way we played on Sunday. Not many teams have caused one of the best teams in Europe the problems that we did yesterday.

The pace and movement that Southgate is trying to engender as the norm is cause for real hope for the future. However, when Saturday comes don't be surprised if we lose 3-0. Its called being a Boro fan.

Posted by: Andy (Hants)  | April 7, 2008 5:36 PM

Forever Dormo wrote...

Let's see what we might agree on. Try this:

1. We all like Gareth Southgate for his honesty and sensible comments after games (a change from times past), and unlike many in football he is not consumed with his own importance. He seems to see a similar game to the one we saw, so maybe he really is ONE OF US, which brings me to....

2. We all agree we have one of the best chairmen in football, who loves the club at least as much as we do and realises change for the sake of it rarely succeeds.

3. Alves looks the part, taking his goals in supreme style (and not against minnows) and presumably will start all games from now on, as part of a 2 man attack. He is a goal scorer, as the videos and common sense indicated (39 goals in any league season can't be luck).

4. The form of George B (another good man who speaks well of the club, and the area in which his 2 children have been born) has been excellent since he was dropped and then restored to the team and surely will earn him another year's contract.

5. If there is a better young player in his first Premiership season than Wheater, he must be a very good player indeed. He also loves the club the way we do (do you remember Boksic supporting the lads from the North Stand during one of his many absences - "well, I hurt my left earlobe again.."?).

6. Taylor is back again, which is like signing another player.

7. Poggy is a fighter who can look after himself and who cares - are we sure he isn't really a Dormo lad?

8. I could go on forever but, basically, what a difference a good performance makes. Fans LOVE effort and the Man Utd game was full of that, in addition to skill and was all we look forward to when we go to the game.

9. We are not stupid. We realise we are not Barcelona or Man Utd, but we are now looking upwards with enthusiasm and (whilst we know WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE, with more than a 50/50 chance of winning, when we see the Cup Final, a wound that will not easily heal) suddenly the world looks a little brighter than it did a few weeks ago.

10. It wouldn't be the Boro if it was easy......(and I loved the "We support our LOCAL team" chant at the Man Utd game).

Posted by: Forever Dormo  | April 7, 2008 10:22 PM

BLT wrote...

I couldn't believe how much the MotD B-team were bigging up the Boro, saying how Gate's tactics were spot on and the players were excellent. You would never get that from Mr Creosote and Action Man.

AV mentions the Gate's interview but Wheats' was just as good, saying we would easily finish top of the NE mini-league and then next year be going for Europe. He oozes confidence on and off the pitch. A sound Boro lad.

Also, no one has mentioned him but Aliadiere has been fantastic since he come back. We really missed him when he was out. His pace and movement really makes us tick and he set up both goals.


Posted by: BLT  | April 7, 2008 10:47 PM

Ste Mac wrote...

Respect to those that have put their hands up and said they were wrong on Southgate.

I think a lot of people are now starting to see the possibilities, not just after one 'typical Boro' result or because there has been some great upturn (there hasn't - bottom line we are still not statistically safe and are below the Geordies) but because gradually a lot of pieces are falling into place and the picture is something close to what we would all want if we were in charge.

Posted by: Ste Mac  | April 7, 2008 10:53 PM

Neil M wrote...

I'm not getting carried away just yet. Boro have put in some excellent displays of late but getting bonus points from Arsenal and Man U is just typical Boro.

This wonder team you are all getting in a frenzy over still didn't show for Cardiff and Reading and just squeezed past Derby.

For me the test is whether they can get themselves up for the bread and butter games. Beating a Spurs side that the Barcodes battered or tearing Bolton apart and getting the three points will impress me more than a one off when they fancy it against a big side.

Posted by: Neil M  | April 7, 2008 11:02 PM

Ken wrote...

This Sunday, millions across the globe were watching to see if Man Utd would continue to dominate the league.

On more than one occasion during the match, the camera lovingly panned across the "Boro Goal Machine" banner at the Riverside.

That, together with Alves' sparkling performance, crystalised Boro's renewed claim as one of the more important clubs in football.

So, I searched the web to find out who had come up with this brilliant idea, and found the answer here at the Gazette site:

" The banner - which also bears a picture of Alves in his Brazil shirt - is the creation of pupils and staff at Our Lady and St Bede School in Stockton.

Avid Middlesbrough supporter Mick Dunne, the school’s head of art, said every student who visited the art room had got involved. "

Gibson should award Mick Dunne a free season ticket next year, as his inspiration will certainly increase sales over the next few months.

PS I also would like to see Alves, Aliadiere and Tuncay all on the pitch at the same time !

Posted by: Ken  | April 8, 2008 5:05 AM

John Powls wrote...

Neil M

Spot on.

Posted by: John Powls  | April 8, 2008 7:53 AM

Neil (Yarm) wrote...

To stockton red: thanks for the comments buddy.

Many times I have said "keep the faith" to my mates, and to my son in particular, and that's exactly what I will continue do.

I guess Sunday was my silent protest if you like, cutting my nose off to spite my face some may say, I don't know, and I don't feel at all villified by my action, don't get me wrong.

But even Sundays performance and result sums what is still wrong with MFC and Boro (the team) and that is their absolute lack of any consistency.

The same inconsistency that can see us out perform teams like Arsenal, Manu, Villa, Liverpool, Chelsea 2nd half, yet fall to Cardiff on our own patch, and struggle to beat the Wigans, Derbys, and Fulhams of this world.

But I'll be back at The Riverside, make no mistake, maybe not this season, and I'll probably give Southgate the benefit of the doubt next term, at least for a while.

As a footnote, maybe my heart was at Wembley on Sunday, where we should have been.

Posted by: Neil (Yarm)  | April 8, 2008 8:53 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

I have been away for a few days in London. Travelliing on the tubes with Cardiff and Barnsley fans did not exactly cheer me up.

Missed the ManU match on the box so cant comment. A Pompey fan in our hotel saw the game and said we did well, he also asked why we couldnt play like that against Cardiff. All I could do was shrug my shoulders.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 8, 2008 10:10 AM

mark j wrote...

I think downing has played more premiership minutes on the pitch than any other player but I want to single out Luke Young as the most consistent player in a Boro shirt this season. He is a great leader and speaks confidently and passionately about the team .

We need to start next seasons pre season with at least 4 quality fully fit strikers. Goodbye Dong Gook!

Tuncay to be played in a free role behind Alves and Alladin for the Spurs game please Gareth, lets take three points off them and see if we can get above them as Luke Young has said.

Posted by: mark j  | April 8, 2008 10:48 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

Neil M, why do you expect us to 'tear' Bolton apart? 1-0 Alves will do me very nicely. A point at Spurs would be a reasonable result as well.

I meant to bring up a point about our impatient fans - here seems as good an opportunity as any - there was an incident v man u where the ball went back to Schwarz (groan), who then tried to play it first time to Arca on the other wing. It unluckily went into touch and the negative groans and murmurs started up - but Arca was applauding Schwarz for his quick thinking.

It's no wonder our players get stage fright sometimes - they have to be allowed to try things. The groans that meet sideways/backwards passing irks me as well.

What happened to patience? Again, no surprise that we end up lumping long balls, as it must seem to the players sometime that is what we want.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | April 8, 2008 10:48 AM

Jarkko wrote...

Back to AV's main story.

Living in Finland - the real North East of Europe! - I have met a few times an ice hockey coach who has played as a professional and managed at the highest level. At France, too - he know Mr Houlier (ex-Liverpool and France) Manager well.

He says: "Winning is a culture". That's why there are teams who ought to do better but don't year in year out. It's not only the money - but it does help - see Tottenham vs. Arsenal. If it were just managers or money the Barcodes should be in the top 6 every season!

Winning culture must start from the groundman to the fans, from the apprentices to the top scorer, etc. It doesn't help if the chairman has a vision - it must be shared everyday and by everybody at a club. Also the fans on terraces.

The work for the culture change has started several years ago at Boro but it won't change over night. A few years ago we were a yo-yo team between the Championship and the Premier. So the Boro culture is changing slowly.

Boro had one of the worst cultures of winning in the past (for over 125 yrs.

Now most of the work ahead is among the fans, I am afraid. Let's give all the support for the culture change GS and Mr Gibson are building. The work for winning culture never stops...

Posted by: Jarkko  | April 8, 2008 11:15 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Neil (Yarm)

If your heart was at Wembley mine was in my boots as I saw fans of Pompey, Baggies, Barnsley and Cardiff in London.

I had even forewarned the family that Alex and I would be trying to get to Wembley. Then the Cardiff mismatch occurred.

I will not be happy until we are mathematically safe. I must admit I had hoped that we wouldnt be embroiled in a relegation battle this season. When Bolton were leading Arsenal 2-0 I certainly started feeling concerned again, luckily they imploded and did the same against Villa.

I dont really worry about being top dogs in the North East, fine if we are, the main thing is staying up.

Then the battle is to get additions into the team. It wont be easy because when all is said and done we will be competing with the likes of Villa, Citeh, Toon, Sunderland etc for the same players. They will have at least as much as we have to spend and some much more with the backing they have.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 8, 2008 11:31 AM

Andy (Hants) wrote...

I agree with the comments made by Neil M.

Beating a Spurs side that scored 4 against Chelsea, dominated Arsenal and scores goals for fun is perhaps more of a test.

The point is that outside of the top 4 there is precious little consistency and we are where we are because we are horribly inconsistent. World beaters one week, panel beaters for the next two.

Solve that problem Gareth and Teesside is yours my son!

Posted by: Andy (Hants)  | April 8, 2008 11:37 AM

Mr J Harvey wrote...

I think that many posts on this blog and FMTTM re just typical of why Boro fans are plain embarrassing and clueless these days.

Fans going overboard about a centre forward who they were openly slagging off not two weeks ago, the ongoing "persecution" of Downing which has been going on for three seasons now, the unbelievable nasty criticism of the only man ever to bring a trophy to Teesside, the fixation and compulsive obsession with Newcastle, the list goes on.

If Steve Gibson had any sense and did not love the Boro as he does, he would uproot this football club from Middlesbrough and relocate it somewhere where the public would appreciate it.

By the way Mr Vickers , your description of Wayne Rooney as a granny botherer just proves my point about embarrassing fans on Teesside.

As a so called professional journalist, you should be ashamed of that cheap remark and you should keep stuff like that to yourself.

Posted by: Mr J Harvey  | April 8, 2008 11:48 AM

Richard wrote...

What a change in posting mood a decent (home) performance makes!

AV: Your main blog thread offers an opportunity to reinforce a theme of earlier discussion which I feel (and I’m not alone, as you’ll see from the remainder of my post) is a funda(mental)ly key component of performance by ANY team.

I’d like to develop it (expand on it – a lot!) using a selection of the really good contributions on this particular blog.

However, firstly, let me acknowledge that the Premier League is a league of squads – not teams. And to have a squad of consistently available talent that provides equally good cover in all positions, costs a proverbial mint these days! And there are only four clubs in England capable of doing so. The rest of us have to get by on less.

However, I don’t want to be cast in the mould of a whinging Jonah – especially after a game, a performance and a result such as Sunday’s, so having provided the caveat, let me move to the main point.

It’s not the first time that we’ve seen Boro rise collectively this season, to provide a truly great team performance. Individually, our players have demonstrated their capabilities as athletes, sportsmen, team players and individual “skillsters”.

(Most of) the current team HAVE the ability. Certainly, they have the physical ability. But that’s only half the story. That’s “entry level”.

So in the context of your blog theme, what stops them from switching it on week in, week out?

Neil (Yarm & Baku) posted:

“……yet we still will not know which Boro will get off the bus next week? It is no wonder that Southgate can't fathom the unfathomable; Boro teams are and always have been this way, something that has baffled managers, coaches, and the fans for decades.”

Nigel’s excellent post offered: “A club lacking self belief, comfortable as under dogs, uncomfortable as favourites.”

Succinct, cogent and so right on the button!

And another gem from the same post……

“We are geared up for failure, mentally. Therefore when success appears on the horizon such as the Cardiff match with the prospect of winning the FA cup we freeze. There was a lack of belief among the crowd that day as well as the players.”

Pat Mc from Dubai :

In his post, he made generous acknowledgement of Tony Black’s earlier post on “winning attitude” and referred to his own posts on the need for Boro “not to sit back”.

‘Ignorant’ of Boroland :

“I actually thought the early Man U goal was a good thing as it sorted the mentality of our boys out and made things uncomplicated and clear. No messing aroung we need to push forward and score or we have lost the game already.

"This attitude is what C.Ronaldo and friends start every game with and what Gate needs to brainwash into all of our team.”

IoB, I couldn’t agree more! Same attitude as the Basle and Steaua matches. The way forward is clear – we need 4 goals to win, and we ain’t gonna get them sitting back! Easy! Now let’s bloody-well do it!

Neil M posted:

“…….For me the test is whether they can get themselves up for the bread and butter games. Beating a Spurs side that the Barcodes battered or tearing Bolton apart and getting the three points will impress me more than a one off when they fancy it against a big side.”

The thing that jumps out of all of these postings for me is the importance of the mind-set – the psychological condition of the players, as individuals (they don’t have a collective brain! - They have one each (approximately!))

Contrast the two insightful offerings from ;

Nigel: “We are geared up for failure, mentally.”……………..and from

‘Ignorant’ of Boroland: “This attitude is what C.Ronaldo and friends start every game with…….”

Although I hate to admit it, Keegan is right, in that football (and not JUST football) is a “confidence” game. Keegan and Keane have been concentrating on the psychological side of their squads’ preparation and I believe it’s no coincidence that they’ve now each won 3 on the bounce.

It comes from inside the players. (Footballing) intelligence, concentration, empathy, mental strength and positive belief in yourself and in your team-mates are just as important as physicality and skill.

Your own mental strength will be the only source of reinforcement and encouragement you may well get as a player when you’re 1-0 down and the crowd are on your back. When things continue to go wrong, when mistakes are made and vocal support and encouragement dries up in the Riverside, what is the source of strength that drives players on and boosts the adrenalin production to raise their game?

It comes from an intrinsic belief that they CAN prevail. It’s an arrogant, self-reinforcing mental attitude that results in a personal conviction that we WILL win and I WILL win all my personal battles to make sure that we, as a team DO win!

It’s what Manchester United and the others in the “big four” get reinforced by, every time they take to the pitch in front of their own supporters, who themselves are conditioned to EXPECT that their team are going to win. It’s not HOPE. It’s certainty!

You can almost see the short-circuits sparking when any of them don’t get their expected 3 points! They get uncharacteristically rattled – see Rooney on Sunday! I’ve seen John Terry appear almost capable of murder in similar circumstances. It’s why Sir Alex Ferguson loses it with referees and with opposition managers! Lose? “It CAN’T happen to us! We’re Manchester United, for heavens sake!”

“We’re Chelsea, we don’t do losing!”

“I’m William Gallas and I’ll stand or sit where the hell I like because I’m Arsenal’s Captain and I’ll rip the head off anybody who tells me to be a big boy and get into the dressing room when I want a sulk!”

It IS easier in a way for the likes of them, because they have a pretty decent factual track record of consistently achieving and winning a lot more than they lose. And the fact that they do so, is exactly the sort of reinforcement required to help sustain it. Success begets success, as they say.

It’s worth noting, because it rather serves the point, that Arsenal have had a few wobbles recently – one against us. That, I suggest, is no coincidence. They’ve lost the reinforcing belief in their own superiority.

And the aforementioned William Gallas isn’t exactly inspiring his troops by behaving like a spoiled child, and ranting in public! Not the kind of reaction you’d expect from a great leader I’d suggest and therefore, not a guy to turn to as a team-mate, for reinforcement of personal belief?)

Boro don’t get that kind of “automatic” reinforcement through already-established superior consistency.

Boro don’t get it from themselves and they don’t get it from their supporters. Because their supporters are conditioned to HOPE – not to EXPECT. We don’t truly BELIEVE. Because we’re “Typical Boro”. Inconsistent, middle-of-the-road, small town in Europe Boro!

We don’t short-circuit. We’re already wired for failure! (Nigel’s point precisely!)

So, rather than view psychological conditioning and preparation as some sort of airy-fairy, wishy-washy, namby-pamby psycho-babble, I view it as an essential component of modern sport. It’s up there with physiotherapy, nutritional science, cardio-vascular regimes and all the other elements of physical conditioning that gets such close attention.

You don’t get the best performance out of a complex modern F1 car without an equally sophisticated and robust engine management system!

Apart from the obvious injuries and intrinsic squad depth, variables in all teams, the mental attitude of the players chosen each week to perform (in any team) will go a very long way to deciding the outcome of football matches. And those who get it right most often will do better. That’s part of being better/stronger than the opposition and will often be the difference between winning, losing or getting a point from the likes of Manchester United!

A final thought just to close on the subject while offering food for thought to all Boro supporters (myself included – and perhaps especially, Neil (Yarm & Baku):

What personal responsibility are WE prepared to assume in the drive to make Boro a more consistent team, performing to a higher level of their capabilities week-in, week-out? If we want to be part of it, what is it we want to be part of and how can we contribute to achieving success?

Is it appropriate for us to “boo” when things aren’t going our way on the field? Is it appropriate for us to demand the manager’s sacking after an early season run of poor results? And by turning against him, make his job that bit harder! What responsibility do WE as individuals take for doing our bit to make Boro more successful?

I’ve begun the process of soul-searching about next year’s season-ticket. I’ve been doing so for a while. I’ve posted on it several times, hinting that I may not renew. Not helped I must confess by the team’s lack-lustre season’s performance – particularly at home (note THAT point well in the context of the subject!).

It’s not the one single draw with Manchester United that’s making me reconsider. It’s more the realisation that I’d do more harm to Boro by staying away than to “do my small bit” and renewing the ST for another season.

I would still have gone to some matches, even if I didn’t renew the ST, but why, if I am to call myself a Boro supporter, disadvantage my home club against the other Premier League also-rans and hasten the day when Championship football may return to the Riverside? I don’t like the Premier League, but, (somebody help me!) I love being a Boro supporter!

I’d love it even more if we won a few more – particularly at home! And I’m coming round to accepting my small piece of responsibility for making that happen. It’s a painful process, but nothing ever worthwhile comes easy!


**AV writes: I agree that the key task is to transform the outlook and culture of the club from top to bottom, including (and maybe, especially) the fans. Boro need rewiring for success.

Posted by: Richard  | April 8, 2008 12:11 PM

Stwart Moffat wrote...

This sums up how I feel as a Boro fan in Haiku form:-

Fragile hope springs yet,
If hope crushed in grassy earth,
New hope germinates.

Posted by: Stwart Moffat  | April 8, 2008 12:20 PM

dave wrote...

Never heard so much rubbish on here,southgates the saviour after a 2-2 draw against Man Utd.

We are in 14th place after a shocking season and all of a sudden two players and we will be in Europe. Have results against the lower teams in the division blinded everyone again,and boro's performance when McClaren won against man utd was on another level from what we saw on Sunday.

Posted by: dave  | April 8, 2008 1:05 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Like the team, many of the posters to this blog are also inconsistent (I include myself very much in this category)

As I said previously Boro would not be Boro if they ground out wins most weeks ala Chelsea.

So perhaps its time to start enjoying performances like the one against Man U, rather than dwelling on the non performances such as that against Cardiff.

Hopefully we will experience the good times again with a Cup final win and European football.

Boro have come a long way since Ayresome Park and the green shoots of success maybe just be beginning to blossom under GS.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 8, 2008 1:09 PM

Nigel wrote...

While re-programming the culture at Boro from 'inevitable failure' to an expectation of success is a big but possible ask within the club itself, to change the default position of the fan base from 'typical Boro' to an expectation of success is a task of an order of magnitude harder.

It will only be achieved (in my opinion) by several seasons of finishes in the upper reaches of the prem. and a trophy room with significantly more than one trophy in it.

It can be done but I despair sometimes when I read what the 'chicken runners' and glass half full brigade post.

I agree that the bench mark to measure progress this season will be the performances of Boro against the likes of Bolton, City and Portsmouth, when there is nothing left to play for.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 8, 2008 2:56 PM

Walmsleys wrote...

Richard,

A very articulate and accurate post. All PL players have skill but they don't all have the mental fortitude to perform week in week out.

For a period Bolton were Arsenal's bogey team, out muscling them with their physicality but never by playing with more skill. Their players began to believe that they could always win and this spilled over into results. Equally, Arsenal knew they would have a battle at the Reebok and probably weren't fancying it at all.

No-one, however demented, would suggest that Bolton, man for man, were better then the Arse but other factors kicked in.

How to instill the winning formula is a magic art known to some managers but not to others - not just in football but in business as well. Compare Winston Churchill with John Major - both did the same job but who would you have gone over the top for?

After my initial disappointment that we got Sothgate when O'Neil seemed to be available, I'm increasingly warming to him. He seems to be low on ego (in a good way) and high on common sense and patience. I guess Mr Gibson knew him better than any of us and could see something which we weren't party to.

I wish him well for the future and am starting to forget about the Cardiff game - although I'll be glad when the Final is out of the way. Just hope Cardiff win for JFH's sake - he deserves a winning medal!

Posted by: Walmsleys  | April 8, 2008 3:09 PM

keenog wrote...

I just looked up on Wilkopedia and found the following definition of a sports fan.

QUOTE
Sports fan can describe enthusiasts for a particular athlete, team, sport, or all of organized sports as a whole. The Sports fans are often seen attending sporting events or following them on television, as well as through newspapers and internet websites such as ESPN.com.

The mentality of the sports fan is often such that they will experience a game, or event while living vicariously through players or teams whom the fan favors. This behavior manifests itself in a number of different ways, depending on the venue.

At a stadium or arena, sports fans will voice their pleasure with a particular play, player, or team by cheering, which consists of clapping, fist-pumping, or shouting positive exclamations toward the field of play and ultimately, the favorable object.

Likewise, displeasure toward a particular play, player, or team is met by fans with jeers, which consist of booing, the shouting of expletives, and in occasional, extreme cases, the throwing of dense objects onto the field of play in the hopes of injuring a particular participant. This end of fan reaction may often degenerate into hooliganism.

It should also be noted that lighter, more harmless objects are also occasionally thrown onto certain fields of play as a form of celebration of a favorable sports feat. This is most common when a member of the home team scores a hat trick in hockey.

Other, more mild forms of displeasure shown by sports fans at sporting events involve simple groans of disappointment, and silence. These actions often denote that the favored home team is being outperformed by, or has lost to the much less-favored road team.

UNQUOTE

Having lived outside of the Boro for the last 18 of my 44 years, everytime I return and go to a game I am dismayed by the pessimism, negativity, jeers, groans, and constant whinging and lack of confidence in the crowd. That I believe is the Boro mentality that is dragging the team down and that is why I think Boro's away record over the last few years has been better than their home.

Until We all start supporting the team in good times and bad, and sticking by the team, how do you expect the players to have a winning mentality. In fact the town.

Posted by: keenog  | April 8, 2008 3:54 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Mr.J Harvey, Get over yourself man its a football blog not a Somalian humanitarian crises blog.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | April 8, 2008 4:35 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

We shouldn't complain as it was almost a great season - It was just a few mental problems since the 17th of February that stopped our season from being truly great...

...If on that day we'd taken an early chance against Sheff Utd we wouldn't have needed a replay...

...Then if we'd not gifted 2 goals to Liverpool the run would have continued...

...And without that replay and extra time we'd have been fresh enough to beat Reading...

...And confident enough to get past Cardiff...

...Then without the dodgy decisions of a penalty and corner we'd have won against Villa and Arsenal...

...And on another day the woodwork might not have saved Chelsea from another famous victory.

...We'd have then enjoyed the trip to Wembley that never was while putting on hold the deserved victory over Man Utd...

...Then we would have had 15 points more with a chance of a top 6 finish - along with a FA Cup final to look forward to.

Yes, we nearly did it...

SO CAN WE JUST HURRY UP AND FIND THAT DAMN ELUSIVE WINNING MENTALITY

Posted by: Werdermouth  | April 8, 2008 4:39 PM

Richard wrote...

Nigel:

You just posted, ..." It can be done but I despair sometimes when I read what the ‘chicken runners’ and glass half full brigade post."

Sorry to be a bit literal, and if I read between the lines I think I understand your position, but isn't "despair" an attribute that chicken-runners display?

Stronger supporters - stronger anybody, in fact – will fight the feelings of despondency and despair and rise above them. That's what we're asking our team to do and I can’t help but feel it's only fair that if we're asking them to do so, then we, the club's supporters should try to do the same!

You probably didn't realise you are an oxymoronic paradoxical genius, (that’s a compliment!) but you've illustrated the point for me beautifully with your last post. That's precisely the point I was trying to make. WE need to contribute by trying to believe a bit more.

Our positive reactions as supporters will hopefully transmit to the players and vice versa and we may get a "virtuous spiral" effect. They'll be encouraged and do better and transmit that back to us.

I agree entirely with you that it's orders of magnitude harder to get through to the "chicken runners” or the “glass half empty (?) brigade” as they're called.

But, as Mao Tse Tung said, "The longest journey starts with one small step"

(Jeez! Don't you just hate gratuitous wisdoms and threadbare cliches?!)

Posted by: Richard  | April 8, 2008 5:14 PM

mark j wrote...

Richard ,

Your post needs reading by as many Boro fans as possible as I think it encompasses what Southgate was trying to say when he was asking the crowd to do their bit at the Riverside.

As a crowd we have the power to amp up the players with adrenaline but it works both ways . The crowd almost need kick starting by some good play as the vibrations going round some parts of the ground this season have been very negative and that transmits to the players.

Posted by: mark j  | April 8, 2008 6:56 PM

dave wrote...

Us lifting our game for the big games is no different to Man City lifting their game to do the double over Man Utd, or Cardiff beating Boro, or Barnsley beating Chelsea or winning at Anfield.

We have had hidings from these teams in the premier league teams over the years.

The true Boro is somewhere in the middle, hence why we are 14th in the league and unable to beat teams from 5th down to 13th. most of our wins have come from Birmingham, Wigan, Derby, Fulham ( 6 out of the 8 league wins)

Playing the top four is like our cup finals, the chance for players to impress some big teams and managers watching. Players know that we have no chance of winning the league but against the top four they can make an impression

Posted by: dave  | April 8, 2008 7:57 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

So what defines a chicken runner and half empty.

Is it discussing and debating ways to improve? To hope that the team and club actually learn from mistakes and move forward?

I never boo the team when I go to matches, I support them through thick and thin, I praise the good things and criticise the nonsense. I dont have foam hands and I dont contemplate suicide when Tippy and Tappy squander possession just outside our box.

I turn up positive for every live match I go to, sometimes Boro turn up as well. Half full or half empty?

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 8, 2008 10:25 PM

Chairman Pootle wrote...

Isn't it the case that we can't have Boateng and Arca in midfield together, It completely messes up the system.

We need Boateng there to mop up the mistakes that Arca makes - but he wasn't there and vice versa, so my advice is give George a new contact and ship Arca back off to Sunderland for a few more bob.

Accomodating Arca and Boateng in midfield is a pointless task. Prefer if the Boro essentialy played a 4-1-3-2 system. The "1" obviously refers to the Boat. Give him a new contract and make sure Pog has the captaincy. Boateng i'm sure wouldn't be miffed with Pog have the the captaincy. Lose Arca - he can't play in a winning system.

Posted by: Chairman Pootle  | April 9, 2008 3:00 AM

Jarkko wrote...

Hi AV,

Very interesting debate. Shows that the fans care.

As there is now 70 comments here what is the all time record for a blog?

**AV writes: No, we've had well over 100 a couple of times - transfer deadline days, when our neighbours have dropped in, collapsing at home to Cardiff, that kind of thing.

Posted by: Jarkko  | April 9, 2008 8:46 AM

teamunster wrote...

Some good comments here but I am concerned that the enigma challenge has not been fully exploited by posters on this blog.

On my long drive into work I set myself the task of explaining in less than 20 words the enigma that is Middlesbrough Football Club.

Magnificent
Infuriating
Dazzling
Dissapointing
Lazurus (the greatest comeback since..)
Exasperating
Sensational
Boring
Rewarding
Over achievers
Under achievers
Gripping
Home Town Club

An enigma and an acronym - I have far too much time on my hands!

COME ON BORO!!!!!

Posted by: teamunster  | April 9, 2008 9:47 AM

William Lucas wrote...


I enjoyed reading Anthony Vickers' thoughts on the enigma that is Boro but it is something that I have known for the past sixty years.

When I was a lad I heard a man who had watched Boro when they had Steve Bloomer say that they were just the same then. So if it is to be solved it will take some doing.

However, I think that the basic problem is self-belief. When there is something that you know that you can do you do it and it is easy no matter how hard it might be for somebody else.

That I think is the key and so yes it is all psychological but the psychologist must believe that a solution is possible and he might not. It would be much better for the current squad to work it out for themselves and with a little guidance I am sure they can.

I was not at the game on Sunday. I only saw Match of the Day but I have the impression that Boro players need to be better at anticipating the opposition's next move and need to develop an ability to themselves deceive the opposition.

If they can work on those two things they may get begin to get somewhere.

Posted by: William Lucas  | April 9, 2008 10:06 AM

Susan Harrison wrote...

THE

M - maddening - YET
I - ingenious
D - dilatory - THEN
D - dynamic
L - lacklustre - THEN
E - elegant
S - simply
B - breathtaking
R - rollercoaster
O - OURS
U - unpredicatable
G - goalshy
H - hopelessly unlucky

ENIGMA - IN LESS THAN 20 WORDS

Posted by: Susan Harrison  | April 9, 2008 10:07 AM

Richard wrote...

All this Haiku stuff has just given me the obvious answer to Boro's inconsistency!!!

Boro should be playing 5-7-5 every season!

Easy!

**AV writes:

blinding flash
of oriental insight
hastens triumph

Posted by: Richard  | April 9, 2008 10:30 AM

Nigel wrote...

Ian - My definition of a 'chicken runner' is someone whose criticism is destructive and not constructive, someone who takes an opportunity to have a pop at the players/manager/ chairman/club because they can and with no objectivity.

The Boro supporter base has a high percentage of them and they are well represented on this blog. I used to respond to their posts now I just ignore them.

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism but some of what I hear and read just makes me think 'why do you support Boro at all, what do you get out of it?' If you see no hope what is the point?

Richard - I dont think the chicken runner mentality is a way of expressing despair its just an opportunity to have a moan. Such supporters would moan if we won the European Cup on the basis that we won't win it next season!

PS - Its a long time since I've been called an oxymoron, but if its a compliment I'll take it!

Posted by: Nigel  | April 9, 2008 10:47 AM

BoroPhil wrote...

playing Arca and Boateng together is far from pointless, in fact they should (and have) dovetail together perfectly.

Boateng can sit deep and break things up, giving Arca the licence to go forward and look to play his killer balls/support the forwards.

Arca's form dipped as he was playing a more defensive role in the partnership with Rocky, which could never work long term as they are both attacking midfielders.

Give Arca the licence to roam once more and he will thrive. He might start popping up with the odd goal again as well.

Posted by: BoroPhil  | April 9, 2008 11:29 AM

Richard wrote...

Haiku surrender!

number game up
syllable count tricky
no can do, Dicky!

Posted by: Richard  | April 9, 2008 11:48 AM

greeny wrote...

I wonder what a Martian coming down to Earth and reading this blog to try and understand something about football would make of it all ? Even discounting the Haiku Schmaiku stuff, there isn`t much about good old tactics, formations and the subjects we normally banter about.

Maybe this is a good sign and we are finally getting to the nub of the issue, or is it another passing phase buoyed up by four or five games where a bit of resolve has been shown ?

We are in danger of getting carried away by the Man U result, but let`s face it, if we had had a line up from game 1 this season which incorporated a striker who could hit a barn door with a banjo, we would have been at least 15 points better off by now.

Southgate is definitely getting the effort out of the players, but neither they NOR the fans have had the confidence to take the team forward. If Alves continues to show what he showed on Sunday (and maybe learns that it is acceptable in the Premiership to score with the head), the confidence will flood into the Riverside.

The real test of Southgate and the players will, for me, be how we approach the last five games. I`m sure I`m not the only one who is heartily sick of seeing us give up the ghost as soon as Premiership survival is guaranteed.

It may not totally exorcise the Cardiff experience, but treating the rest of the season like their lives depended on it will earn the players and the club some valuable brownie points--and they need those to put plent of bums on seats next season.

Posted by: greeny  | April 9, 2008 12:35 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Nigel

I tend to agree, when I go to a match there are always people around me having a go right from the start. I tend to see more away matches and it is not so bad at those.

You hear it when someone plays a poor back pass to Swarz and he clears it the best he can. If it comes from a chosen one and Swarz doesnt manage to land it on a sixpence over the fullbacks head for Stewie to run clear then there is a hail of abuse.

I am not sticking up for Swarz, most players get punishment at some time in the season.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 9, 2008 12:53 PM

eskvalleyred wrote...

Great post greeny. I totally agree, the attitude shown in last 5 games will determine how much cash we can spend in the Summer. It's as simple as that!

Let's not get carried away.

Posted by: eskvalleyred  | April 9, 2008 3:30 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Susan Harrison and teamunster

Thanks for those brilliant enigma acronyms! Are you related or did you come up with these quite independently of each other?!

I'd like to offer
ENIGMA - Exasperating Negativity inhibits Gareth's Middlesbrough Artists, but I fear that may be more a reflection of what he inherited than what he has built now.

Maybe we can conjure up the future with AFONSO - Astonishing Football Offers New Season optimism. Let's hope so!

Stewart Moffat - Did you go to Acklam Hall in the 64 club??

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | April 9, 2008 4:23 PM

teamunster wrote...

Clive Hurren

Thanks for comments. As far as I know we are not related and came up with the enigma acronyms totally independently of each other.

Love the AFONSO acronym. Beats the one for MIDO - Much Indigestion Doughnut Overload.

COME ON BORO!!!!

Posted by: teamunster  | April 10, 2008 10:08 AM

Clive Hurren wrote...

teamunster

MIDO -LOL!

Has anybody else noticed that Mascherano failed in his appeal but didn't get additional games? No doubt this wasn't considered frivolous, even though Liverpool had already fined him, because they are after all one of the elite and it would never do to offend them, would it?

Yet again the FA lives down to its reputation.

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | April 10, 2008 10:27 PM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

AV, in my previous post, I forgot to add my answer to your question, "can you answer the Beeb's Boro enigma and sum up Boro in 20 words?".

After seeing every Boro game since the New Year, playing very well against top teams, losing to poor teams, I can only come up with one answer

"Boro, a squad of players that could reach great heights (top six?), but cannot yet shoulder the weight of that expectation"

Until the players can perform under the 'pressure' of winning when we are expected to win, then the potential of this squad cannot be realised, which would be a shame because I believe it is the best squad we have had since returning to the PL.

Over to you Gareth.

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | April 11, 2008 5:11 AM

Calplank wrote...

I stopped bothering with the Gazette's Boro message board a couple of years ago because of the unremitting negativism and generally bozo level of discourse.

Browsing by now it's like I've stumbled on the Bloomsbury Group discussing eminent footballers (well, you get my gist, and there's no question AV is better than Lytton Strachey)! Keep it up all; as a long time exile in California this enriches my 'Boro experience'.

And to those who still prefer to moan, can you not see how lucky you are to have a burgeoning team with a great squad that will get better next year, supported by great management?

Thanks to growing interest and coverage in the US of soccer world-wide, and in particular the Premiership, I can assure you it's a joy to follow what Gibson, Southgate and the gallant lads in red are doing, the mix of locals and foreigners, even from afar.

nd the American commentators are starting to pick up on Boro like the English poobahs.

Golden days Mannion Mitchell and Clough,
No better stuff,
Until now.

Posted by: Calplank  | April 15, 2008 8:40 PM

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