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Faust, Glory And The Fear Of Relegation

Posted by on March 19, 2008 11:51 AM | 

WOULD you trade Boro's Premiership place for FA Cup glory? I would. After all that is what all those playground dreams were about weren't they? Climbing the steps, wiping a sweaty hand across a mud-spattered shirt before shaking the queen's mitt, then raising aloft the famous old trophy to ecstatic cheers, not playing out the season in grey spirit-crushing mediocrity but with a massive cheque for surviving the annual top flight cull. It is about heroes not accountants.

The Gazette posse talked about the key dichotomy in the modern game - sporting success versus financial success, or more accurately the fear of the spectre of financial failure, and how a club like Boro can square that circle - with famous football fundamentalist philosopher Bernard J Slaven on the long haul back from London after the Arsenal game.

I recognise the vital need for clubs to compete financially, to have their noses in the TV trough or be left behind, to exploit every possible revenue stream and to be inside the Premiership money bubble at all costs but there is an equally compelling dynamic in that clubs must give supporters a reason to believe, they must offer hope, ambition and excitement and for the crowd there is little to stir the heart in water-treading number-crunching.

To that end, losing against Cardiff was an unmitigated disaster that could yet be an epoch defining moment. Having been teased with the glint of glory and come within hotel booking distance of a childhood dream come true, a mid-table finish and the chance of another next year and the one after and so on and so on ad infinitum until Boro morph into Coventry, cemented into 12th spot for eons will be hard to sell as a vision of success.

If the surrender to Cardiff snuffs out the narcotic flame of passion then thousands could walk away, disillusioned and infected fatally with the corrosive cynicism that gripped a lost generation after the defeat at Wolves in 1981. It is a problem that the club must think seriously about now and tackle head on in the summer.

Fans need the prospect of glory. That is what will electrify the crowd, stir hearts and help the club push on. The die hards will dig in through the mid-table marathon of a league campaign in any division but it is only the realaistic prospect of silverwear and tangible success that will set Teesside alight with passion and bring back the Riverside Roar. Which is why missing out on Wembley is such a kick in the teeth. I wrote as much in the Big Picture column in the steam-driven paper Gazette this week.

"Only a late ‘handball’ shout at Villa denied Boro a win at the UEFA Cup hopefuls then an Arsenal corner that should have been a Boro free-kick led to the Gunners’ leveller after an inspirational defensive display at the Emirates. With two industrious performances and two bonus points Boro have restored some pride, taken a step towards rehabilitation and raised hopes of not just avoiding the drop but doing so with ease.

But I would still willingly trade the two restorative displays for victory over Cardiff. In fact, I could easily have accepted bruising defeats in those two games had we now been gleefully planning a semi-final trip to Wembley.

And - yes, I know this is heresy in an era when a turgid 12th place in the money machine of the Premier League is the Holy Grail of Boro sized clubs - I would go so far as sealing a Faustian pact with the devil and trade relegation for a guaranteed FA Cup final win.

After all, the pre-Cardiff big cards display spelled out exactly what the club should be about - and what chairman has repeatedly said it is about - the pursuit of “Sporting Glory”, not ‘Annual Survival By The Skin Of Our Teeth’. Ultimately, it is glory that supporters want. They are willing to put up with the interminable years of failure, under-achievement and habitual mediocrity if that pergatory is to be rewarded by the moments of ecstacy that come with success, to be there as history is shaped, to have a ‘Cardiff moment’... when that meant a good thing."

Of course it is hypothetical. The FA won't let us do the trade - but if we could would you? So far posing the question has brought responses falling into two distinct camps: either "yes, of course, I would willingly give up my right testicle to see Boro win the cup" or "no, don't be a doyle - if we go down we may never get back - look at Forest and Leeds."

I understand the fears and appreciate that the club big wigs will see that the preservation of top flight safety and the continuation of the generous revenue streams it brings is the priority - but that does not quicken the pulse does it? For supporters having the money to have another tilt at 12th next year is not 'Sporting Glory'.

Again, it is hypothetical. I don't want the club to go down. I don't want to play Barnsley in the league. *Shudder*. I am not one of the puritanical faction that would welcome the Championship as an antidote to the Mammon of the top flight, some kind of spiritual born again simplicity. No thanks.

But if such a a relegation came with a copper bottomed promise of winning under the iconic arch come may then I would certainly accept the consequence in return for glory. It is NOT the end of the world. After all, we are all battle scarred survivors of relegations past. We have been there before and come back and powered by Premiership parachute payments the odds would be stacked heavily in our favour.

But we have never won the FA Cup. We have never had our name engraved on the knockout trophy that we fantasised about on the playground. We haven't tasted that particular glory.

Life outside the Premiership may be frightening but it does exist. And there is no saying that it would not be the galvanising, inspirational moment the club need: the FA Cup in the cabinet, Thursday night UEFA Cup football and exotic trips abroad again and the almost unknown quantity of playing week-in, week-out in a competitive league and one where we were actually among the big boys. A saluatory spell outside the myopic Premiership may have recharged the batteries, given us a fresh perspective and relit the fires of passion.

Or maybe I am just a romantic fool.

Comments (56)

Ken wrote...

Too right. I'd take the FA cup and relegation any day. I've seen many relegations, but remember that without relegation there can be no promotion.

My greatest footy highs have been promotion days. Dickie Rooks, John Hickton, O'Rourke. Oxford obliging again. I even supported Boro the first time they were in Div 3, and that was a cracking season culminating in a great escape.

In fact I'd almost sign up for an FA cup win and then dying from a heart attack. My life will be complete the day Boro lift the FA cup. And yes, black Sunday hurt like hell.

I was surprised when Gareth said it felt like a death in the family. I didn't realise he felt as I did. Anyway, can't change past history. But the future is still to be written.

The team will be forgiven black sunday - the day they lift the cup. Cheers.

Posted by: Ken  | March 19, 2008 1:40 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

Steady on AV - after giving up your right testicle for a FA Cup victory what would be next? giving up your left testicle for a place in the Champions League?

Though at least in the future you'd be more comfortable sitting on the fence when commenting on the Boro.

However, I think Mrs Vickers would call you more than a romantic fool after examing the trophy cabinet.

BTW: For the record I wouldn't swap a modern devalued FA Cup for a place in the Premier League.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | March 19, 2008 2:41 PM

teamunster wrote...

AV - whilst I understand and emphathise with your romantic notions,I for one would not trade FA cup glory for relegation.

The reaction of Boro fans against the awful defeat against Cardiff is now beyond melodramatic. It was a truly awful defeat but no one died. We live to fight another day and to claim another chance.

I watched Sports Relief on Friday night and saw true pain and suffering (and i am not referring to Chris Moyles on a treadmill). We lost an important football match. Yes, perhaps one of the most significant in our history but as far as I am aware nobody died of malnutrition (not even Mido) or Aids. We messed up big time but we need to stop harping on about it and get a sense of perpective.

The most pivotal moment of our history was winning the Carling Cup but has that led to increased success for Boro? I think not.

The fan base has actually dwindled and whilst it was without doubt one of the happiest days of my life I don't think it has really changed anything at the club.

Fans now have higher expectations and the club simply cannot meet them. The relationship between fans and the club has deteriorated. The plus points from winning the Carling Cup are that the opposition cannot taunt us with our lack of success, we can ask geordies what it's like to win a cup, and of course, the UEFA cup run.

However THE UEFA Cup run the year after was not gained by winning a cup. It was gained by achieiving results week in and week out in the Premiership. This is where we need to be.

Cup success is 15 minutes of fame, relegation to the Championship would be a long journey into oblivion. Look at the likes of Coventry and Southampton Vickers and be careful what you wish for!

COME ON BORO!!

Posted by: teamunster  | March 19, 2008 3:55 PM

mark j wrote...

We should have done both AV, we should have beaten Cardiff , we will stay up anyway as we are playing well enough to stay up .

Win the cup and go Championship , win it again and go div 2 and so on . No ta.

It was great to see us do Arsenal at the Riverside and nearly again at the Emirates.

With our team playing better against the big boys what would we do in the championship where the highlight of the season is playin bleeding Hull. Sorry Hull fans, I had to pick someone, you are not Man U and you never will be!

Posted by: mark j  | March 19, 2008 4:03 PM

PaulE wrote...

Swap this for that.. Can't stand the argument!

What we need is for the players to approach each game with drive, determination and hopefully creative footballing expression!

Titles, trophies & medals! That’s what we want & it's what the players should want too. The premier league is media hyped, it's only good for the 3 clubs challenging for the title. The rest it's just a plod & that’s why the football is so poor. It keeps players in big cars & houses and the fans pay for the privilege of mediocrity.

Even Gibbo said we're not going to win the Premier League or Champions League. Maybe Mogga is unrealistic to try & recreate Ipswich, Forest, Wimbledon style campaigns.

Gibbo may be right, I hope not, myself I'd rather have drive & determination and a will to win than accept we'll never compete. Porto won the Champions League, Greece won the Euro championships. Titles & trophies can be won, it needs quality management with drive & vision.

The competitive Championship would offer a better spectacle, and as you say, relit the fires of passion.. That burn feebly in both fans & players in the uncompetitive, unsurprising and underachieving Premiership.

League Cup, FA Cup & sporting glory has to be chased each and every game! Because if it isn't why do we bother to turn up? To, as Dive Kitson said, retain Premiership status over the FA Cup?? Why to keep the players in bling?

What do Boro do next season? Use all the TV money to give the underachieving payers more money or pass some of that cash to the fans by creative season ticket prices?

If you think you'll end up 12th, you might just get relegated! If you play to win, you just might!

Posted by: PaulE  | March 19, 2008 4:03 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Come and live with my wife AV she will have your right ball for nowt and you can forget the cup!

**AV writes: That wasn't the deal on the table.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | March 19, 2008 4:05 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

The Olympian ideal is not the winning it is the taking part.

Well folks, we did neither in the Cardiff match and that is what got people angry.

I have weakened in my resolve not to go to the Derby match, let us hope the players do the same and actually turn up for a change at the Riverside.

Another abject capitulation would at least save the cost of posting out season ticket renewal forms.

See what you have done AV, made me angry again. I can cope with losing matches in any competition, a disaster is when the crops fail in Africa or a tidal wave sweeps a Pacific island. Failing to turn up to play a game we dreamt about as kids was a disgrace.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 19, 2008 4:33 PM

Walmsleys wrote...

I'd take a win at Wembley any day.

Actually, one of my best seasons supporting Boro was when we went down last time. Trips to grounds I'd never visited - Bury anyone when we went top?

To win the FA Cup would be out of this world. The best day I ever had in football was at Cardiff with my daughter when we won the Carling Cup. How ironic then that it was Cardiff who ended this year's dreams.

Football is more real outside the PL - we won't ever win the title and we all know it - to get into Europe again would be great but I'd settle for doing it by winning the FA Cup.

When we lost to West ham in the semis it was bad enough but for Cardiff to do us in the quarters is the equivalent of Devon Lock falling with the post in sight.

I may never recover - I should have quit after the Carling Cup win!

Posted by: Walmsleys  | March 19, 2008 4:44 PM

BLT wrote...

Of course you dont get a choice but if we did then like you I would choose to win the FA Cup every time.

How can you be a fan and not choose to win a trophy? That's the whole point. I cant believe people who would pick 12th place over winning at Wembley. Haven't they got a soul?

Posted by: BLT  | March 19, 2008 7:12 PM

Nick Hill wrote...

No I wouldnt swap the cup for the premiership. I sort of take pride that our club is in the top league, always having hope we can break into the higher level.

We also get more coverage in the top league, has anyone even heard of Charlton since 06/07? Where would we be without the classic 11.55pm Boro highlights on Match of the Day?

The FA Cup would have been fantastic but going to e.g. Colchester, Swansea etc on a cold wet Tuesday evening on a regular basis next year isnt something I would enjoy even if the FA cup was the trade.

Plus Championship football is absolutely awful, you cant sit through 10 minutes of the games, not to mention the 10k attendances we would get.

Posted by: Nick Hill  | March 19, 2008 7:21 PM

red_rebel wrote...

That people would even consider a future of long-term mid-table mediocrity in a rigged competition more desirable than an unforgettable moment of glory shows that the money men have won: some supporters have started to believe that financial results are what matter.

The Premiership is a racket designed to pour vast sums of TV money into the coffers of the already super-rich elite in which clubs like Boro are complicit.

The also rans turn a blind eye to being systematically shafted in return for the chance to squabble over the crumbs from the top table.

To think that success, or glory, or integrity can come from finishing relatively higher up in a rotten, uneven competition that is skewed by the differences in resources is shameful.

Success is wanting to win things. It is living not just existing. Yes, just being up there is something to be proud of, but to what end? Finishing 13th for ever is the recipe for stagnation, sterility and a shrinking crowd with no motivation, no vision, no dream.

Sporting Glory.


Posted by: red_rebel  | March 19, 2008 10:39 PM

Bob wrote...

It's taken me a long time to get to this point, but on balance I think 2 points against Villa and Arsenal is a better return than a win against Cardiff.

I'm for the longer term and staying in the PL. A cup chance will come again if we continue our forward momentum, although it's unlikely we will ever have a better chance.

I have to admit that from the moment I woke up on Sunday morning and read the overnight results from Blighty to find Man U and Chelsea knocked out my guts started churning - I don't think I would have played well on the Sunday either!

I do wonder how things would have turned out back in the days before TV bought football and all teams kicked off at the same time on the same day - certainly the extra psychological pressure would have been off.

It's also important to remember that a win against Cardiff still left us only in the Semi's - some of the recent comments on this blog suggest the cup was as good as won if we had beaten Cardiff. I'm sure an ex-Captain of ours would have had some different ideas, amongst others.

Anyway, I'm back on board - and no Faustian pact for me. Three points for the Boro on Saturday and WBA for the cup!

Posted by: Bob  | March 19, 2008 10:40 PM

Neil M wrote...

Wembley, Cardiff, Eindhoven. Just about all my memorable high-points in 30 plus years supporting Boro have been in cups. There's no doubt that the money shot is in getting to finals. That is what excites us and gets the town buzzing.

But football is a business too. In fact, these days it is a business first and TV money in the Prem has paid the wages of all the big name stars that got us to Wembley, Cardiff and Eindhoven and if we go down and lose that money there is no guarantee we will ever get back.

For me the real question is not what the fans want but what Gibbo wants. If he thinks survival in the big league is better long term for Boro than winning the cup that is good enough for me.


Posted by: Neil M  | March 19, 2008 11:22 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Walmsleys

I was at Bury that day we went top, mate! Mikkel Beck - gerrin! "We are toptheleague, say we are toptheleague!"

Aye it was an exciting season, but also a nerve-racking one, and I often wonder what would have happened if we hadn't gone up. I suspect we might have gone into a downward spiral a la Coventry or Wednesday.

Instead we went on to become the highly respected Prem club we are today, with a very positive and enviable record in Cups (Cardiff notwithstanding) and Europe.

So more seasons in the Championship (a misnomer if ever I heard one) are not for me - it's an incredibly hard league to get out of. Just look at Wolves.

Besides I like seeing Boro featured every week on MoTD and given a high profile nationally ( if we think the media is against us, what must it be like to be Stoke or Burnley?).

I like the fact that we've given Arsenal a bloody nose and made a few people sit up and notice. I like having our players playing for England, and I like the fact that we are able to attract very talented international stars to Boro.

I do want to win the FA Cup, but I want to stay in the Prem more. And I'm not talking about endless mid-table finishes. That's defeatism. We've been in Europe twice and we will be again. We should be aiming for it every year; there is no reason why we can't be better than Pompey, Villa or Everton. And there's no reason why we can't win either the FA or Carling Cup.

So Come on Boro!

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | March 20, 2008 1:07 AM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Even in the hyporthetical sense, it's Premier League status for me, hands down.

I would have loved to have at least got to the FA Cup Final, but not at the cost of big league survival.

I have absolutley no desire to watch "real" football, as someone put it, at places like Sheffield, Watford or anywhere else.

Apart from the fact it would be a financial calamity, I fear we would not get back into the top league for many years. The club could implode.

I enjoy us being seen as big scalp for teams like Cardiff, although I did not and will never understand nor fogive the manner of that defeat.

I like being in there with the big boys, turning them over now and again, that feeling would disapear completely should we drop a league along possibly with a another large chunck of our fragile fan base.

So a resounding no from me Vic.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | March 20, 2008 8:23 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

Romantic - well, possibly. Fool - almost certainly! Sorry, but you did open yourself up for that one.

I know you are a fan of Faustian dilemmas and I suppose, as a technique, it makes good copy - occasionally.

But, of course, it's a false choice and I'm with those above who say that you don't have to choose and should, with our resources, be able to have both.

You now that too - which is why you, rightly, joined in on and took a leading role in the well-deserved slaughtering that followed the debacle against Cardiff.

So kindly forget this Faustian nonsense - unless you want to contemplate the sort of reverse deal that we are teetering on the edge of, offered by some pale negative of Mephistopheles that Gate has been talking to - that we both crash out of the Cup AND lose our place in the Prem.

So let's concentrate on urging that Gate stops moaning about how many of the little darlings have got knocks or are tired (or have done an Alves and added illness to make it a hat-trick) and concentrates instead on making sure the team he turns out on Saturday is not the one that turned out on our last two outings at The Riverside against Reading and Cardiff and does the job of getting all 3 points against Derby.

I know he doesn't like 'must win' gams but this game is exactly that. A six-pointer plus in a weekend of six-pointers at both ends of the table.

By Monday we will know a great deal more about who will win the Prem and who is going down with Derby. Let's make sure that we ease ourselves out of the reckoning for the latter.

Posted by: John Powls  | March 20, 2008 8:52 AM

Riverside Betting Bloke wrote...

This thread is a bit like saying you could have one night with Miss World but suffer a life of misery afterwards.

Who in their right mind would want to go through a 46-game battle with clubs looking to kick you off the field for 90 minutes of total joy? Not me!

It's part and parcel of being a Boro fan anyway as what would we all moan about after we win the FA Cup? Even the biggest romantic will no know we will never win the Premier League so we couldn't get starry eyed on that one!.

Posted by: Riverside Betting Bloke  | March 20, 2008 9:03 AM

John Stone wrote...

Yes AV.you are a romantic fool !

The defeat against Cardiff left all of us angry and bemused but to get relegated would be a disaster.

We have waited a generation for regular top class football,have some great young players and with some proven Prem player signings in the summer can get about the top teams and regular top ten finishes.

We have the best chairman in English football. I dont see a queue of investors at the doors of the Riverside willing to cover a £10m loss every year. Just imagine how Gibbo felt after Cardiff !

We need more support not less. Look at our North East neighbours Newcastle and particularly Sunderland. If either of them had our record since 1997 they would be extending the capacity of their stadiums to 60,000 +

Cardiff was a humiliation but so was Barnsley for Chelsea. Let's get over it and channel the anger into support !

Investors like Gibson come once in a lifetime lets support him and the lads !

Posted by: John Stone  | March 20, 2008 9:12 AM

littlejimmy wrote...

Was there something wrong with the comment I left last night, Vic? Was it the word "bugger"?

Yours confusedly...

**AV writes: I can't see any comment at all from you last night on here LJ. Are sure you pressed the right button? Or posted it on the right board?

Posted by: littlejimmy  | March 20, 2008 9:25 AM

Dave Brunt wrote...

The Premiership is not all it is cracked up to be. The quality of games is poor, I reckon 80% of games have been rubbish over the last five years.

To say we have to stay up or we will all die is nonsense. If we stay where we are for another five years we will all be brain dead watching the same rubbish in front of 15,000 crwods.

I for one would rather have a moments glory at Wembley and be able to tell my grand-kids I saw Boro win the FA Cup than be stuck in this mediocrity for ever.

Posted by: Dave Brunt  | March 20, 2008 9:43 AM

stockton red wrote...

I think it's time for everybody to do themselves a favour and put the Cardiff match to bed.

It's pointless harping on about it as neither the result or the performance is going to improve. It's just one in a long line of missed opportunities over the years-Wolves Orient etc

I can even remember under Rioch as a top flight team when we lost at home to Grimsby who were in the bottom league with an appalling performance. This is what happens in cup competitions.

I am not going to give an answer to the question but make a comment as to why the question is being asked. If you check the bookies odds at the start of next season for the league you will find you can back any team but the so called big4 at virtually whatever odds you like.

It is a closed shop with only four runners -everybody else is making up the numbers. In the cups you do have a chance because its only six games and some of them can be against lower opposition. That is why it hurts so badly.

We need to stay in the top flight in the sense that we have more of a chance in the cup competitions with top flight players and better players than without.

Posted by: stockton red  | March 20, 2008 10:09 AM

David Morrison wrote...

Heart felt article AV and I would love to win the FA Cup. I dreamed of it when i was a kid and watched religously from 8am on a saturday as the teams left the hotels and weaved there way up to the wembley gates in the coaches with hoards of fans by its side.

However Championship football can not be and must not be contemplated. The premier league is the best in the world and we must be a part of it.

Yes it is tedious and un competative at times but it still fills my heart with pride to see us on MotD on a saturday nigth parmo in hand. you dont get that in the championship.

And if MFC were to go down what type of players could we attract? Yes we would be in europe but how would we qualify for it the next season and what type of campaign would it be with the sole ambition promotion?

Europe was a fantastic achievement but the best way to get back is by being in the premier league, we must stay in this league and continue to build and improve.

I believe of any of the teams outside the big 4 in the next few years MFC will have the best chance of playing Champions League football.

You might think im loosing the plot but the type of football we are trying to play and the number of good performances this season where we have battered teams but not scored give me hope and optimism.

We can succeed we must be patient and must want the team to achieve its potential.

COME ON BORO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 20, 2008 10:54 AM

mark j wrote...

David Morrison- Brilliant -YES

Up the BORO!!!!

Posted by: mark j  | March 20, 2008 11:15 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Like Dave Morrison I grew up in the days when the FA cup coverage started with teams leaving the hotel.

There are a lot of tedious matches in the premiership but things havent changed. I was at Leeds as a student in the early seventies and watched a fair number of matches played by the 'great' Leeds team of that time.

Many Boro fans supported Leeds as their second team then lo and behold the team that Jack built get promoted.

People had been fed a diet of top flight football where the producers cut out the dross. I was one of those who had watched plenty of top matches as a neutral and realised how sterile it was. I remember many were disappointed when Leeds came, Sniffer Clarke scored a very good breakaway goal after 30 mins then they shut up shop.

Many matches were dire then so in some ways many things havent changed. What has changed is that teams like Derby and Forest will never win the title again.

We can strive to get into the top half and push for europe, to get to next years finals. To ensure we do so lets have three points from Derby.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 20, 2008 11:49 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Just a quick PS.

I have decided not to post about Cole's challenge from last night because it wont do any good. I certainly wouldnt want our players to surround and berate officials to help deflect attention, much better to just to take the three and four match bans.

What a reflection on our game and I truthfully dont want our palyers to harrass officials.

Did I ever mention what they do in rugby?

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 20, 2008 11:55 AM

chris wrote...

Nearly two weeks have passed since the cardiff debarcle, time to move on AV. I know its not an easy thing to forgive and forget but it must happen. Its a cliche to say theres always next year but its true.

We have been truely blessed with some incredible cup runs over the last few years and the club is going in the right direction.

In answer to your question would I take relegation and the cup? Yes I would but that is hypothetical situation and these sorts of questions are not helpful.

Yes we stuffed up but thats part of being a football fan, we take it on the chin and move on. Im sure bolton fans are still kicking themselves for losing in the final to us.

There will be plenty more opportunities in the future and I am looking forward to seeing how we perform for the remainder of the season, getting to as many games as I can.

All in all Lovin your work AV, keep up the good work

**AV writes: It is not something that is reallly eating me up, it was just a hypothetical discussion to kill time on the long journey back from Arsenal.

Posted by: chris  | March 20, 2008 12:05 PM

Orange Dave wrote...

Living in Leeds, the answer is a resounding NO!

The slow disintegration of a club losing it's best players, the fans losing their faith and a town losing it's pride, and as a final insult taking up supporting Rugby instead is a fate I would never wish on the Boro.

You must not forget the lofty position of world esteem in which the premiership (and by proxy, the Boro) nestles, which means there are people from Peru to Botswana to Mongolia who receive weekly installments of the exploits of the heroes of this small town.

If you were going to guarantee a return to the top flight the following season, and that we kept our good players, then it would be a trickier decision.

But again the answer would still be the same, as the much publicised paucity of the prize money in the UEFA cup could not compare with the massively juicy windfall which is the premiership, and the quality of the players that money would attract, (and the quality of the opposition) is something I would prefer as a spectator.

Also forgotten is the fact that the Boro relegated would also leave the Barcodes and Mackems in the Premier League, a season long (minimum) torture, vs the inward turmoil of the feeling of terrible capitulation in one match.

That capitulation, however harsh, has not attracted much in the way of outside criticism, mainly because no one else of note was left in the competition to criticise, and just simply puts another brick in the wall of reinforcement of a nationwide stereotype of the Boro.

Posted by: Orange Dave  | March 20, 2008 12:05 PM

Jarkko wrote...

David Morrison - I agree with you. I think this is all Mr Gibson has been planning. The plan why Boro have the academy and GS, ect.

Please respect what Gibbo is doing and trust him. I am sure Boro will be in Europe soon - through the League or the Cups! Listen to what Mr Wenger is saying about GS and Gibbo!

The last hurdle is to win matches against the likes of Derby, Reading and Sunderland. If we're frightening the Arsenal and Man Utd's already ...

Posted by: Jarkko  | March 20, 2008 12:05 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

I just had a go on that predictor that some of you have been talkin about and with a prudent set of results I got us in 12th with 44points 7 points behind west ham in 11th.

Man U top then Chelsea and then Liverpool putting Arsenal in 4th down to goal diff.

Sunderland just stay up with Wigan and although Fulham leapfrog Bolton both still go down with the Derby-I am not predicting a Derby revival which starts at the Riverside!

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | March 20, 2008 12:36 PM

jiffy wrote...

Like one of the earliest responses on this thread I agree the "prize" of relegation is the renewed surge of the opportunity for promotion.

There is no equivalent within the Premiership where the prizes (CL places) are won before a ball is kicked.

The opportunity to get into the UEFA is a bit like the playoffs for other divisons - virtually everyone else reckons they have a chance to make it but there again there is only 1 place to go for in reality unless the cups go to the big boys.

Would I swap relegation for an FA Cup win - too right I would. Frankly I would swap another cup final defeat for relegation like the only other time.

I still rate getting to that FA Cup Final as a bigger schievement than winning the Carling Cup, and reaching the UEFA final as the 2nd biggest day in the club's history.

But then so many fans seemed to think it was enough to just make up numbers at those finals and I certainly dont want to count myself with them - I mean just being there on the day with the chance to win even if the players in most cases were as absent as they were against Cardiff.

Some people say would we want to be like Coventry and Southampton or Leeds and Forest. What is wrong with being non-Premiership? Is it any wonder the media think that football begins and ends with the Champions league quartet when fans talk like this.

Only the players really benefit through that extra PL money as it all ends up in their pockets and higher admission charges disappear out of the fans pockets to pamper them. The club gets precious little extra out of it.

My two favourite seasons in over 40 years of Boro watching would be the two spent in the 3rd flight of English football.

The promotion seasons under Robbo, Jack and Lenny are probably next plus that great two finals season. Sometimes it isn't just clubs that benefit from a drop in status to get their heads back focussed on what its really all about - the fans need a reality check too.

The fans of Darlo and Hartlepool dream of being where Coventry or Southampton are today or even of the status of Leeds and Forest. York dream of where Darlo are, the 2 Harrogate clubs of being where York are and the likes of Guisborough and Marske and the two Billingham clubs of being where Harrogate Railway are. This is what football is really all about - not the Premiership.

Who are the happier fans today, Derby County or Durham City?

Posted by: jiffy  | March 20, 2008 12:42 PM

tim from sa wrote...

Wheater in the England squad

**AV writes: As predicted in yesterday's Gazette.

Posted by: tim from sa  | March 20, 2008 12:51 PM

Andy (Hants) wrote...

David Morrison; like you I think the club is heading in the right direction but realise the gut wrenching disappointment of Cardiff will linger for a long time.

Perhaps my/our expectations are tempered by the footballing wilderness that we inhabited for the majority of my lifetime.

I most certainly dont want to ever retutn there, like Coventry and Wimbledon have following one fleeting glorious moment many years ago.

We need to entertain at home and score some goals in the last few games. People wont renew with the current paucity of goals scored, and I personally would target the Carling Cup as the one to win, just because it seems so much easier to get to the final!

The Champions League comment makes even me look like a doom- and- gloom merchant David so excuse my wry smile at that one!

Yes I do get cheesed off, annoyed, frustrated, even bl**dy angry at the team (dont we all) but to me its more than just a club; its a way of life. Sounds crap, but I know many on this board will identify with that.

Posted by: Andy (Hants)  | March 20, 2008 12:51 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Spooky AV - Bruce Millington in todays Racing Post in typical blinkered cockney mode writes of how boring it must be to be a Boro fan.

It can be read at:

http://www.racingpost.co.uk/news/master.sd?psection=racingpost.co.uk&page=SportsFeatures&category=Thursday%20Column&story_id=964556&story_uid=964523

Part of the article reads:

Having finished 12th, 14th, 7th, 11th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 12th and 9th in their last nine top-flight campaigns, thus ensuring their fans have had virtually nothing to get excited about for the best part of a decade

He mentions the Cardiff debacle but not the Carling Cup win or UEFA cup final.

He is a Cystal Palace fan and has the audacity to write this drivel.

3 points on Saturday please.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 20, 2008 1:36 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

Jiffy:

How could getting to the final of the FA Cup without playing a single top-flight club be regarded as a great achievement?

In fact, this season we could have even won it without playing a top-flight club.

Even the lower-ranked Premier League sides (and even some Championship sides) field weakened teams these days and only really start to take it seriously when they reach the QF stage.

Lets face it, Boro were pretty ordinary in their cup run and were lucky to get past Sheff Utd before blowing it against Cardiff.

So I don't think many outside Teesside would have hailed Boro as being great achievers - especially as many were bored to tears by our live games and we were generally seen as a poor team.

Let's just beat Derby on Saturday and then we can start looking to build a team that's going to both entertain and win games next season - afterall, that's what we were promised post-McClaren!

Posted by: Werdermouth  | March 20, 2008 2:20 PM

John Powls wrote...

Well done to Wheats, Stewie and Huth - and to Catts and Johnno for their call ups.

Hope Wheats and Stewie make the cut but not so that they are exposed to injury or 'tiredness' on return from a meaningless friendly. Our need is greater.

Saw the rubbish from Crosby about Alves and his 'hammy'. If it was an injury that kept him out against Arsenal why wasn't that said at the time? Even his own website didn't use that excuse.

He was supposedly ill for Villa then Gate said that he had been 'mature' about being left out at Arsenal - why did he need to be mature about a hammy?

Now we're being warned not to expect to see him again this weekend and, just a co-incidence, I'm sure, Craddock is recalled from his loan.

This all smells of rodent. If we haven't bought another expensive, Emmerson-like, non-scoring (in a decent league) liability I'd like to see the proof or be told the truth, not fobbed off.

Has he been seen at Hurworth or Villa Park or The Emirates whilst he's not been doing what he's paid for?

That would be the easy way to dissuade people from what the Gazette refers to as 'wild speculation' today.

If he doesn't play will he actually be at the ground on Saturday?

Posted by: John Powls  | March 20, 2008 2:20 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Ian - ref Cole Tackle

The Football Association cannot take any further action over Ashley Cole's challenge on Alan Hutton because the Chelsea star was booked for the tackle.

Referee Mike Riley cautioned Cole for a late and high tackle on the Tottenham defender during Wednesday's 4-4 draw.

An FA spokesman told BBC Sport: "The referee saw the incident and dealt with it. We cannot re-referee matches.

"The player was shown a yellow card at the time and the decision is not then looked at retrospectively."

However if the FA want to they can take further action as was in the case of Ben Thatchers assult on Pedro Mendes

Manchester City defender Ben Thatcher has been charged with serious foul play by the Football Association and suspended by his club following his horrific challenge on Pedro Mendes.

The ex-Wales international was only booked by referee Dermot Gallagher after hospitalising Mendes with a forearm smash during City's goalless draw against Portsmouth on Wednesday.

That would normally have been enough to prevent the FA taking any further disciplinary action, but officials of the game's governing body felt compelled to act because of the serious nature of the incident.

I am not comparing the two incidents, however Cole tackle was much worse than many seen this season that have resulted in red cards.

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 20, 2008 2:46 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Never Happy,

The FA are so inconsistent it stinks, I was meant to come on here a week or so ago after believing there was a conspiracy going on.

Anyway , luckily my alcohol fueled attack on the FA and certain Ref's was lost when I pressed the wrong button or summut. Either that or AV found the whole thing far to abusive to show?

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | March 20, 2008 4:27 PM

Orange Dave wrote...

I believe the main source of entertainment from the Boro in recent seasons and going forwards, is our capacity to produce fantastic displays against the big teams, sometimes via battling, but preferably from good footballing displays, because we seem like a team that enjoys both the challenge, and the time and space on the ball, and I do really enjoy these displays.

The reverse is also true in that any team that arrives to close us down and turn it into a scrap is very successful in their endeavours, because we seem to lack either the willingness to dig in or the composure to string a simple passing movement together once under physical pressure.

The question is: is it a lack of talent, motivation, or both?

If we were to trade anything, surely it should be for this ability going into the future, giving us consistently enjoyable matches against the big and little boys, where we compete with the Man U's and slaughter the Derbys of the world on a regular basis, as this will give us our glories yet to come.

Whether this can be achieved with managerial skill on players mentality, or changes of personnel on or off the pitch, this is what Steve Gibson and ourselves should be striving for.

Posted by: Orange Dave  | March 20, 2008 5:18 PM

littlejimmy wrote...

Gord knows. Must have been having one my turns. It was a great comment as well.

Posted by: littlejimmy  | March 20, 2008 6:13 PM

Captain K wrote...

Hmm....

interesting article, however i would not trade premiership status for the FA cup, as much as i would love to see us win it.

As many have stated away trips to Burnley instead of the Emirates would be depressing.

Anyway, when we go play one of the big boys it is in a sort of way a little cup final for us. Four points from Arsenal this year, when we beat Man Yoo 4-1, Chelsea 3-0 are all examples of why top flight footy is paramount.

I also study in Newcastle and work in a bar on Gallowgate and could not face the Geordie regulars with their small sneering eyes and smaller brains to match.

i dont know if this is true but i did read somewhere or on the "grapevine" that Southgate is getting £20-30 million to spend in the summer...

i would courteously advise Gibson to spend about half or a third of that on a manager and back room staff with proven credentials and experience.

Last three managers all rookies and I think that is why we are probably one of the most inconsistent teams in the premier league. Too long have I heard comments as "it depends which boro will turn up".

Black sunday merely serves to compound this theory as against lower league opposition in the QF of the cup, Boro simply failed to show up. Surely a more experienced manager would have got the players motivated and added more bite to the midfield.

Hmm....

Posted by: Captain K  | March 20, 2008 6:26 PM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

AV I have always enjoyed reading your posts in the Untypical Boro blog. Your intelligent viewpoint to stoke up debate. Level headed, rational, sensible posts of the past have been a joy to read.

I didn’t enjoy this one at all. It’s as though your words were shallow, not as a genuine belief, but were only contrived to invite emotional responses.

The defeat against Cardiff was shocking. That for me is the correct description as we were shocked in many ways. Shocked at the defeat. Shocked at the abject performance, shocked that we surrendered without a fight against an average Championship team, shocked that we were deprived of a big day out.

That is the essence of the disappointment in fact. Shocked at being deprived of a big day out. Yes, we are fans. Yes, we are the customers. But to believe that “Cardiff was an unmitigated disaster”, and is more important to MFC remaining in the PL, is selfish beyond belief.

While it can’t be disputed that this campaign offered the best opportunity for Boro to win the FA Cup so far, I don’t subscribe to the fact that this opportunity will never raise its head again.

As long as the two/three of the top four are still involved in the Champions League, as long as two/three of them still have the chance of winning the PL, then the FA Cup will be small beer for them.

The only way to legislate for Barnsley beating Liverpool and Chelsea, is that those teams didn’t care enough. That will happen again. The FA Cup, in terms of prestige, is not what it was. Just as the League Cup (Carling Cup) is not what it was. Domestic trophies, as in Spain, Italy, Germany etc, have become an irritation.

Once the shock wore off, the more intelligent posters have sensibly urged “let’s move on”. I totally endorse that viewpoint. Why do we keep being reminded of the near misses of Wolves and Orient? Aren’t we beyond that now, as a club? It’s like the Geordies being reminded of the Keegan years. “We should have…we would have….” It is because they can’t move on from that near miss that they are where they are today, not just as a team but as fans, as a club, subject to ridicule.

Surely we don’t want to reduce ourselves to the same sickening level of “what should have been”. But we are, by dwelling on near misses. Forget them, move on. The clock cannot be turned back. Forget Wolves, Orient and Cardiff.

The two performances this week, combined, were far more significant to me in their impressiveness, than the performance against Cardiff was in it’s failure . Those two games gained us two points.

The fact is, the loss against Cardiff deprived fans of a big day out and that is the factor that overrides rational judgement on team performance.

Long term, I don’t want to support a Leicester (who beat us in the Carling Cup final), or a Coventry (who won the FA Cup in recent history) who are both stranded in obscurity, for one selfish day of glory.

I want to be part of a successful team, a successful club, and if success is finishing consistently in the top ten of the “best league in the world” then I would take that over one day of glory.

After the latter years of Robbo’s boring football and the following years of McClaren’s rigid tactics, I see hope in Gate’s approach, and in the current squad, which I believe is the best squad (if not the best team) we have ever seen at MFC. The top ten of the PL is a real possibility next season, and an opportunity to win the FA Cup will come around again, sooner than most pessimists believe.

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | March 20, 2008 7:30 PM

dave wrote...

Not much to shout about in the premier league these days, apart from celebrating staying up again. Fans are becoming bored of the league and crowds are falling.

Cup games has always brought out the best at the riverside. The FA Cup this year had breathed new life into it.

I would trade a relegation to win the FA Cup with Boro

Posted by: dave  | March 20, 2008 10:05 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Nowt whatsoever to do with this excellent thread, but BBC website is reporting that Roy Keane has brought in Bill Beswick to boost the players' confidence as they fight to stave off relegation.

Did Keane never watch Boro when Beswick was here? What price the Mackems for the drop now?

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | March 21, 2008 12:10 AM

jc wrote...

Orange Dave sums up the source of the our dichotomy perfectly: we love playing teams that give us time on the ball and press up; we hate playing teams who close us down and defend deep (note: don't get your hopes up too much for Saturday).

And Pat Mc sums up my feelings on your false dichotomy. FA Cup or Prem survival? Kind of ignores the fact that we got to the QFs by beating lower league teams (just), and we still had to beat two more teams after Cardiff... we really weren't that close after all.

Plus, the FA Cup comes around every year. Prem status at least gives us a degree of financial clout that means we will keep our best players, be able to attract good new players, and give us a chance of progressing in the cups next year, and the one after, and the one after that.... hopefully.

If we were relegated, even had we won the cup, all we would have are the memories. I personally like to watch the Boro. I'm far less interested in what some Boro team in the past achieved than I am in what this Boro team is doing right now. And I like it that they are doing it against Arsenal, ManUre, Chelski - not an option when you're in the Championship. It's the journey, not the destination.

Posted by: jc  | March 21, 2008 2:02 AM

Diablo Rojo (Costa de la Darlingtono) wrote...

"But we have never won the FA Cup. We have never had our name engraved on the knockout trophy that we fantasised about on the playground. We haven't tasted that particular glory."

Lets face it, you've never won a trophy of note..... EVER!
Never mind, neither have Rochdale.

Posted by: Diablo Rojo (Costa de la Darlingtono)  | March 21, 2008 12:04 PM

Anthony Vickers wrote...

So:

8 magic of the FA Cup romantics
15 hard-nosed Prem Cashcade at all costs realists
3 existentialists who want to argue the basis of the proposition
5 who didn't engage with the question
1 who thinks I am just stirring it
1 who misplaced answer
and
1 glory-fan gloating.

Posted by: Anthony Vickers  | March 21, 2008 7:21 PM

mark j wrote...

Stay in the Prem and have another go for a cup or 2 next season. I dont care what some tool in Costa del Darlo says about us not winning a cup of any note.

The Carling cup started a surge into Europe for the Boro.
Diablo's lost his MOJO, he will be tellin me that the Riverside 4-3s to the Boro were dull next. So Blankety Blank mate!

Posted by: mark j  | March 21, 2008 9:16 PM

Diablo Rojo (Costa de la Darlingtono) wrote...

"8 magic of the FA Cup romantics
15 hard-nosed Prem Cashcade at all costs realists
3 existentialists who want to argue the basis of the proposition
5 who didn't engage with the question
1 who thinks I am just stirring it
1 who misplaced answer
and
1 glory-fan gloating."

and a partridge in a pear tree! LOL!

Posted by: Diablo Rojo (Costa de la Darlingtono)  | March 22, 2008 9:08 AM

Redcar Red wrote...

I would never, ever even consider swapping the FA Cup for Premiership status. We are now (or at least should be) an established Premiership club, with a European pedigree to boot (albeit rapidly waning at present).

This years FA Cup was a once in a 100 year opportunity, never ever to be repeated in our living memory. The manner of the sheer unprofessional exit will rankle for a lifetime and yet another sorry "Typical Boro" tale will be handed down to generations such was the anticlimax.

Rather than consider swapping our Premier status I expect as a minimum next season a top 8 finish and two good cup runs. This will only be achieved by a radical overhaul of on and off field organisational activities during July and August.

Top 8 (or even top 6!) is not unrealistic, we have several Internationals in our squad and others starting to shine like Aliadiere and Wheater. Tuncay will have had a season under his belt and hopefully Alves will have assimilated to life with the big boys. This week the Scouse press are touting Cattermole to Liverpool as the new Steven Gerrard! We don't need much more, on paper at least.

Anticipation, Inspiration and Motivation, (AIM) is what I and thousands of other Boro fans will be looking for in the coming summer months from the Riverside!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | March 22, 2008 10:46 AM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

I am encouraged by the Gate’s word’s in the Gazette “we have to play against Derby, as we did against Villa and Arsenal…”.

Here is your managerial task for today GS, MAKE SURE we do play against Derby as we did against Villa and Arsenal. That is a part of your job.

And if the team start off not doing so, then change it. This to me was GS’s biggest failing against you know who. The failure to correct what was so obviously wrong.

Anyway, let’s be positive. Let’s start off by driving at Derby and do not show them one ounce of respect.
Derby are…..dare I say it….nothing but an average Championship team, devoid of quality, there for the taking, if we play to the standard that we consistently reach during away matches.

We know the situation by now, we have to create four gilt edge chances in order to score one goal, so let’s go out and create eight or twelve gilt edge chances.

My head and my heart are as one on this game. 3-0 to Boro.

COME ON THE LADS!

(I have just re-read my previous posting, commenting on the main thread……cor, a bit feisty those opening lines weren’t they? I have to confess in sending that after consuming one or two beers on Thursday night. Not a good idea.

Though I stand by the main body of my post, let me apologise to you AV for getting just a little too personal.)

**AV writes: No problem.

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | March 22, 2008 10:53 AM

lauren wrote...

We got the vital points today which is the most important thing from todays game. It should have been more than one nill because i'm always biting my nails at the end!

I would never swap the premier league status for the FA Cup. Any team in a lower league would love to be in the premier league and we should be glad we are in it.

It would be great to win the FA Cup, but the reason players love the fa cup from lower leagues is because they get to play against the best players. Like we do every game in the premier league ( most games!)

Just a thought!

Posted by: lauren  | March 22, 2008 7:30 PM

eddie fletcher wrote...

Re: Cardiff game.

The fault of defeat lies totally with GS.

Wrong midfield selection. George B should've been in there 'at 'em from the start.

And just like his predecessors SMc laeving out Massimo in the Euro final and BR leaving out Craig H for Gazza in the other final we could have won.

Typical Boro management!!!!!!!!!! Bring on Fabio Cap. after his England stint!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: eddie fletcher  | March 22, 2008 9:42 PM

Ray Porter wrote...

I thought I might drop you a line before this thread is replaced by the next. What would we rather do? Stay in the Premiership, finishing 12th, 14th, 12th, 13th. etc etc (but never winning it or even having any prospect of getting near to winning it under current circumstances), or for one season winning the FA Cup even if it meant relegation that year?

The first thing to say is that an FA Cup win is something that can never be taken away - something with misty eyes to tell your grandchildren about in cold winter nights to come.

The second is that relegation is something that CAN be taken away - by promotion the next year, or the year after!

The third is that "Big Clubs" are said to become big by a combination of cups and prizes won, their wealth and the size of their support. If you are annoyed by those claiming ours isn't a "Big Club", presumably it never will be unless it wins cups.

The fourth is that, of course, winning the FA Cup (as well as our League Cup) is an automatic route into Europe. Didn't those two UEFA Cup runs give memories that will live for ever in the mind of those who were there for the "comebacks", for the novelty of the foreign fields not previously explored, and the "at least we got there" Final in Eindhoven?

It is correct, on the other hand, that a relegation will mean some players leaving if, despite the "parachute payment" it was felt they could not be afforded in The Championship.

That might make an immediate return to the top flight a little less likely (though I recall it didn't stop us last time) and nobody would actively want to be in the league below.

However a LONG stay in The Championship, or lower, isn't something necessarily involved in your equation. You weren't asking us to balance a single FA Cup win for an eternity in the lower leagues, were you?

It may be argued that remaining in the Premiership means we continue to build a stronger and stronger squad on the basis of the enormous revenues shared in that league, and that this means some day we might eventually get nearer and nearer the top as, by a process of attrition, other clubs drop out of the league.

Of course we would not be able to get TOO near as we cannot concieve of a situation in which we could catch up on the "Top Four" who continue to speed away from everyone else, like red-shifting distant galaxies, on the back of their Champions League monies and crowds we couldn't match.

However the initial object of every game in every competition is to win. What would be the point of competing for eternity in the Premiership, never to win it, and in the FA Cup never to win that?

At least AV's proposition allowed ONE FA Cup win, so some "Sporting Glory" would have been achieved.

When all is said and done, Portsmouth have won the FA Cup (twice?), WBA (four times?) and even Cardiff (1927 if I recall) and Barnsley have won it in their day. In 130 odd years you might have thought, by the law of averages, a moderately run professional football club would have had its moment of glory at Wembley. Most of them seem to have, but not us (in the FA Cup sense!).

Just think. Would you prefer it if it had been Boro who had won the FA Cup in 1927, 1967, 1977, or in 1997, even if we had been relegated as well? Who would now remember that we had been relegated that year (especially as we would, hopefully have gone up again the next year, or the year after that)?

One last thought. Surely it can't be better to finish 12th, 14th, 12th, 13th etc etc in the Premiership, neither being relegated nor being in with a chance of getting near the top, as opposed to winning THE Cup?

Think of athletics, of the Olympic Games. That is the elite competition for world class athletes just as Premiership clubs are thought of as the elite in English football. Would any athlete prefer to qualify even for the final itself of the Games, but without winning, for their entire career (say the 1996, 2000, 2004 & 2008 Games - giving 12 years at the top) rather than winning once, on one of those occasions even if failing to qualify on others?

Does Kelly Holmes care whether she qualified for a final, or was even fit enough to compete, in other years when compared to winning her double in 2004? When Bob Beamon almost jumped out of the Pit in Mexico City in 1968, blowing away the competition in the Long Jump, Lynn Davies had already won his gold medal in that event in Tokyo 4 years earlier and had therefore already had his moment of "Sporting Glory", which nothing could ever take away.

Failure to qualify ever again for the competition, even relegation for all time to "Seniors" events, would not take away that one moment of supreme success when the dream was at last achieved, however long ago.

Let us all be honest. The words are hardly enough to explain the joy we had at our successful League Cup win in Cardiff. It meant we had won something significant. That day, men publicly cried and hugged other unreconstructed men in a way they would hesistate to do, whilst sober, in most parts of Teesside. An FA Cup win would be MUCH bigger.

Lastly, in those books and comics we read as kids, and even in films (Sean Bean as a Sheffield United player for goodness sake!), you will note the dream wasn't to win the League, to grind out results over 8 or 9 months to become champions. The Glory was always to win the FA Cup in the last game of the season, to climb the steps to receive it (and a medal) and wave it to the cheering supporters, before planning the open-top busride back home.

It is, after all, the ORIGINAL and best competition, where the mightiest Premier club might be drawn against the lowliest of non-league opposition and where the biggest surprise is that that people are surprised by the surprise as, each year, some giant falls to some minnow.

Now we have fallen this year to Cardiff, can we please win it next year. A few fans in the West Stand would be prepared to barter an FA Cup win for Anthony Vicker's soul, let alone a relegation.


Posted by: Ray Porter  | March 23, 2008 12:43 AM

Ray Porter wrote...

AV - Sorry about the misplaced apostrophe towards the end of my message on this strand. Not normally too vital, but I suppose you are entitled to have your name properly rendered. I am afraid it was late and I was tired (though definitely not emotional).

**AV writes: Usually when my name is mentioned on message board the punctuation is the least of my worries.

Posted by: Ray Porter  | March 24, 2008 12:08 AM

jiffy wrote...

Werdermouth:

You asked:

"How could getting to the final of the FA Cup without playing a single top-flight club be regarded as a great achievement?"

Sorry for delay replying been away for easter.

1) Who cares what the rest of the world sees as an achievement I'll apologise afterwards!

2) Thats the luck of the draw mate. If you get it its not your fault now is it.

3) Only 7 Premiership sides have been put out by other Premiership sides - 12 by lower league opposition.

By that statistic meeting a lower league side every round would paradoxically this season be a tough route to Wembley. We could have pointed to the draw and said we succeeded where everyone else failed.

I would dispute these days whether the Carling Cup really is the easier one these days. With the big guys & the UEFA Cup entrants getting a bye to the last 16 it means its getting harder for the non-European contenders to get through the latter stages. Also the lack of a replay means no second chances if you get a tough draw away from home.

I think its a much closer call these days.

Posted by: jiffy  | March 24, 2008 7:37 PM

growler wrote...

Winning the FA Cup these days would be something akin to winning the Eurovision Song Contest.

Growler.grr

Posted by: growler  | March 26, 2008 8:16 PM

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