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Survival Stats Stack Up For Boro

Posted by on March 3, 2008 2:38 PM | 

AFTER another bout of blood-letting down at the bottom the ever shrewd bookies have fine-tuned their odds on the relegation battle - but despite the anxious gnashing and wailing emanating from Teesside after the sickening late sucker punch KO delivered by Reading it is not Boro that they have shifted closer to the trapdoor.

Yes, Boro slipped back within touching distance of the basement battlers after that coupon busting kick in the teeth - in truth they have never really been far beyond it, even after the recent purple patch - but the crucial results prompted bookies to slash the odds on not our heroes but on Bolton, battered 3-1 by Liverpool, and crisis club Newcastle, caught cold late on at home to Blackburn to lose 1-0. As far as the number-crunchers are concerned it is they, not Boro, who are looking increasingly vulnerable to being sucked in towards financial oblivion.

In fact, putting aside the doom-and-gloom knee-jerk masterclass that followed the entirely predictable defeat to Reading - they had lost eight in a row and had not won an away game all season plus Lawro had tipped us to win so in the perverse shadow world of 'typical Boro' it was a cast iron certainty - our relegation odds actually remained unchanged at a 14-1 long shot.

That is because while fans, partisan and passionate by their nature, may be caught up in the hothouse arguments of a moment coloured by the emotional response to the last few results and start to bleakly bet on an icy cold fear of a Back To The Future Wembley defeat and relegation double, the bookies stand back and view it objectively. They weigh up probabilities based on close analysis of the statistical trends in form and predict the outcome of fixtures based not on a subjective chickenrun/ra-ra ideology but measured against the complexities of the mathematical matrix that also engulfs the rest of the desperate looking relegation battlers.

And as far as the bookies are concerned, when you look at the situation dispassionately, Boro are the team that are in 12th place, that have lost just two games in 12, that lead the rest of the strugglers in the form table and who have the run-in likely to yield the points needed to ensure they limp over the safety barrier soonest. Maybe if they listened to the almost suicidal told-you-so spleen-venting on Century they would see it differently but right now Ladbrokes, the Gazette's official bookies, rate Gareth Southgate's side as the least likely of all the candidates to go down. They have Bolton at 2-1; Reading 9-4; Birmingham 11-4; Sunderland 3-1; Wigan 4-1; Newcastle 11-2; then Boro looking rank outsiders at 14-1. It's not even worth a daft quid.

Amid the recriminations, jitters and doubts after Reading it is worth considering the value of an objective perspective. Fans only see their own teams weaknesses: sloppy defending, the imagination deficit in midfield, a lack of a cutting edge and fitness, tactical and selection blunders, the keeping howlers, the failure to play for the full 90. It is a elective myopia.

But the other teams are equally inept - that is why they are down there - and for all Boro’s wobbling form and on the field flaws, the rest are demonstrably, statistically far worse.

Boro remain 12th, as they were before the game. There has been no grand meltdown. The gap between the current position and the relegation hot spots is down to four points - but that is only one less than after the spirited 1-1 draw with Liverpool early in January when the consensus was that even if Boro had not turned the corner they certainly had the indicators on.

The reality is that it is any one from seven team for the final relegation place - and the other six are below Boro. That means that while it is perfectly reasonable to expect this team or that team to claw back the handful of points needed to overhaul Boro, for our heroes to go down it would take ALL SIX sides below them to do it simultaneously.

The way the remaining fixtures stack up mean they all have to play each other so if two or three teams are to make a break for freedom in a bloody no-holds-barred street-fighting survival battle then they must do it at the expense of their fellow trapdoor dancers and that will make it all the more difficult for those others to follow suit. So even if Boro do go off the boil the odds are still stacked heavily it favour of them staying up, even if it is by default. Again. In truth, for all the searing criticism of the lack-lustre performances in recent weeks, no one would seriously trade places with a single one of those relegation rivals.

Derby are gone and need a dramatic upturn just to match Sunderland’s record low water mark of 15. Fulham are all but nailed into the coffin too. That leaves six that must climb above Boro for the unthinkable to happen. It won’t. In what has been a poor Premiership the survival mark will be a lot lower than the usual 40 points. In fact 36 could easily do it - leaving Boro needing just seven points to set a target almost impossible for all six to match.

Let’s look at the contenders’ form. Any statistical snapshot is arbitrary but lets go for the last six games, the traditional unit of measurement. Boro have taken eight points from their last six and are sitting pretty in tenth in the current form table.

None of the teams below Boro in the real table are above them on form, although Wigan and Sunderland are within a point suggesting they could be the ones ready to push on. Dead men Derby have three points and Reading have the same - the ones they mugged from Boro - while ailing Newcastle have just a meagre two from a possible 18 and must now be reckoned to be the most vulnerable of all the strugglers.

We know how tricky Boro’s fixtures look in the final straight: tough trips to Villa, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs beckon along with title chasing Man United at home but they also have Derby and Bolton plus Pompey and poor travellers Manchester City at home and Sunderland away. We know form counts for little - look at the Reading game - but there are at least seven points in there even before you factor in Boro’s uncanny ability to collect unlikely results against one of the big boys.

And if you think that is a tough run in, just look at Bolton’s fixtures. Or Wigan’s. Or Sunderland’s. No one below has an ‘easy’ sequence with most having two or three games against the Champions League contenders, a couple against UEFA Cup hopefuls and a couple of do-or-die clashes with relegation rivals... any team that does now go above Boro will be climbing over the bodies of the dead.

That doesn’t mean we should be complacent. A cup diversion next week could see Boro slip back a couple of places but that should not be reason to panic. We all knew from the beginning that the squad was thin in some areas, that a few injuries would leave the team short and that we would struggle for goals. We all expected that Boro would spend most of the season down in PL Division three and most predicted the team would finish somewhere between 16th and 12th. The wild optimists were talking big and thought maybe tenth. So far from falling short in some way or lurching into crisis, Boro are actually bang on target - even if the bar was set very low.

So there is no point now slating the team for not being world beaters. We knew that. But they have improved over the course of the season as Southgate has fine-tuned his squad and style. We must hold our nerve and stick behind a team that looks solid, spirited and increasingly has options up front. As the boss has said, league survival remains the top priority and we need to get to the safety mark as quickly as possible - and also set our sights on progress in the FA Cup. And with a team somewhere near full strength and playing with the determination that has produced the results of recent months that should be easily achievable.

I've been on the BBC predictor a dozen times over the past week or so and even with a bit of a jaundiced jiggle Boro don't go down. In order for that to happen you need to not only adopt a real Chickenrun cynicism about Boro but also a naive belief in logic smashing runs of freak results for all the others. See what you think . The remaining fixtures:

BORO - 12th (29pts)

A Aston Villa
A Arsenal
H Derby
A Chelsea
H Man Utd
A Tottenham
H Bolton
A Sunderland
H Portsmouth
H Man City


NEWCASTLE
13th (28)

A Liverpool
A Birmingham
H Fulham
A Tottenham
H Reading
A Portsmouth
H Sunderland
A West Ham
H Chelsea
A Everton


WIGAN
14th (27)

H Arsenal
H Bolton
A Blackburn
A Portsmouth
H Birmingham
A Chelsea
H Tottenham
H Reading
A Aston Villa
H Man Utd, 15:00


SUNDERLAND
15th (27)

H Everton
H Chelsea
A Aston Villa
H West Ham
A Fulham
H Man City
A Newcastle
H BORO
A Bolton
H Arsenal


BIRMINGHAM
16th (26)

A Portsmouth
H Newcastle
A Reading
H Man City
H Wigan
H Everton
A Aston Villa
H Liverpool
A Fulham
H Blackburn


BOLTON
17th (25)

A Wigan
A Man Utd
H Man City
H Arsenal
A Aston Villa
H West Ham
A BORO
A Tottenham
H Sunderland
A Chelsea


READING
18th (25)

H Man City
A Liverpool
H Birmingham
H Blackburn
A Newcastle
H Fulham
A Arsenal
A Wigan
H Tottenham
A Derby

Comments (68)

Ian Gill wrote...

As I posted on the last thread I think we will stay up, even being less than optomistic on BBC's prem predictor kept us up and Bolton going down.

What we musn't do is waste points against the three relegation battles, to then have to rely on my 'points from unusual sources' theory.

In all our angst about the three points deduction in our relegation season there was a real coupon busting result.

It happened when we were playing Leicester in the final, Coventry won at Liverpool and stayed up at the end of the season.

We won at Arsenal and Toon in the El Tel great escape.

There are enough points available but we have to grasp them.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 4, 2008 7:23 AM

David Morrison wrote...

Out of all those you have got to look at Newcastle and worry. I'm not just saying that because they are our rivals and there is nothing more in this world that would give me more pleasure than to see them go down, but they look voulnerable.

Not won in 10, not scoring goals, conceding at the other end and away form that even the most hardent fans must be reeling about.

Like you say AV I cant see boro biting it but i can see some of the teams down there going on a little mini run as they realise that they are so close to going down.

Newcastle think they are better than they are and there fans cant see that they are in a relegation fight.

I'm gonna go for Bolton tho to go down, their UEFA Cup exploits may just hinder them and without anelka they look a shadow team to when he was there.

Toon to go down and Boro to win the fa cup, surely couldnt happen could it?

COME ON BORO!!!!!

**AV writes: Overall Bolton have the toughest last ten but if Newcastle don't pick up soon and if they lose to even two of the three teams below them they play then that last four games looks very daunting.

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 4, 2008 9:08 AM

Nigel wrote...

I had a go at the BBC premiership predictor and Boro ended up on 44 points in 12th, with Bolton the third team to go down on 34 points.

As AV points out for all six teams below us to hit such good form that they all end up above us is unlikely.

That said Boro need to get stuck in and collect as many points as possible, in order to set the tone for next season.
I would see finishing 12th and winning the FA cup as an acceptable season!!

The intriguing situation for me is the Barcodes, if they continue to implode as spectacularly as they have since the messiah returned then they could easily plumet past Bolton. Personally i think what the Geordies need is a pragmatic experienced manager who can creat a tough hard to beat team......someone like Sam Allardyce...........

Posted by: Nigel  | March 4, 2008 9:23 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Last week I looked through all of the fixtures that the teams at the bottom had and predicted the following: (the changes after the weekend are in brackets)

Boro 43 (40)
Reading 37 (40)
Bolton 36 (35)
Sunderland 35 (33)
Newcastle 35 (36)
Wigan 34 (35)
Birmingham 32 (34)
Fulham 30 (30)
Derby 9 (10)


Boro struggle at home because of our inability to break teams down.

We are better away from home when teams attack us.
So don’t be surprised if we get points from away games that we might not expect.

I also think that 38 points will definitely be enough to stay up this season (35 if my predictions come true)

C’Mon Boro!


Posted by: Never Happy  | March 4, 2008 9:33 AM

Ken wrote...

Well, my attempt at the predictor showed us dowm with 31 points, and Bolton above us with 37 in 17th place.

We'll know by the time we've lost to Villa, Chelsea, Man U and Spurs!

That 14-1 looks tasty :-)

**AV writes: Top Chicken Running. Respect! Get a tenner on. It'll pay for your season ticket in the Championship.

Posted by: Ken  | March 4, 2008 10:15 AM

mickymac wrote...

Following the boro is like being on one of those fairground rides that twist and turn.It's supposed to be fun but there's always the nagging fear something could go wrong.

I think we have enough in the locker to stay clear,and if we make the final (at least) it won't have been to bad a (transitional) season.

Posted by: mickymac  | March 4, 2008 10:54 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

The problem for all the clubs is the phasing of the matches, if clubs go on a bad run the problem is ending it and where you are in the league.

Our last four matches arent too bad but the run of Villa and Arsenal away, Derby H, Chelsea A, Manu H, Spurs A is tricky. Should get three from Derby and a point or two from the others wont go amiss. Even 5 points from those matches would stand us in good stead. A damp squib against Derby would be a real problem.

The crunch may well come with the Bolton and Mackem matches. A similarity to last season in some ways where we couldnt buy a point then won at Wigan and ended well clear.

We certainly dont want to go into the season final weeks needing points.

Before that we have the FA Cup, a win at the first time of asking with a few goals would be most welcome.

But even before then we have Lampard's red card being overturned later on today and Aliadiere will get another match added for being a Boro player.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 4, 2008 12:06 PM

beeline wrote...

Far too much common sense. Give yourself a slap.

Posted by: beeline  | March 4, 2008 12:28 PM

JOHN STONE wrote...

DONT PANIC !

A good assessment AV.

Gareth with 15 minutes to go,went for a win on Saturday and I'm not going to criticise him for that. Reading were workmanlike but didnt deserve to win.

We would have been better accepting a point which would have left Reading 7 points adrift of us, ut hindsight is a wonderful thing.

This situation with 7 teams fighting to beat the drop is likely to happen more and more each year , with the gap between the top 8 and the rest widening.So its important to at least draw against your rivals.

Where did the fans go? Steve Gibson having shelled out £12 for Alves must be dissapointed with the crowd for Reading, an important game, 28,000 at the last match and only 23,000 turned up !

But how many times have we said this, dissappointing crowds seem to be the norm. Lets hope the Riverside is full for the FA cup tie.

Posted by: JOHN STONE  | March 4, 2008 12:30 PM

A real Teesside based Geordie Lurker wrote...

"Newcastle think they are better than they are and there fans cant see that they are in a relegation fight."

You Teessiders like to keep convincing yourself about all things concerning Newcastle dont you.

I've noticed that you also like to hype up the situation by posting as Geordies ie Geordie Lurker and then whipping yourselves up into a frenzy about NUFC.

You really believe that Newcastle fans believe that they are the 8th biggest club in the world and now through your ridiculous and widely laughed at FMTTM fanzine board (yes people like you, Mr Morrison) you are convincing yourselves the the "jawdees" dont believe that they are in a relegation dogfight.

Not to mention that you think you are Newcastles "fierce" rivals.

Keep on dreaming and believing your misplaced half truths! We know our team is crap and we are aware of the reality of the situation. Looking at your next 6 games, I hope you lads n lasses are aware of your own predicament.

Posted by: A real Teesside based Geordie Lurker  | March 4, 2008 12:32 PM

BLT wrote...

I can't believe so many people are talking about relegation on the back of ONE banana skin. The Liverpool game was a close thing and come down to two mistakes. We played well. Reading was poor and we didn't play well.

Some Boro fans just can't wait to see the worst in any situation can they? Can't wait to put the knife in? Two defeats is a crisis? Get away. How long have you been watching Boro?

We are 12th, lost two in 12 and are in the FA Cup quater-final against a lower league club. Look at our history - that is an EXCELLENT position to be in.

This can still be a brilliant season for us. Mid-table and the FA Cup final would be one of the best seasons ever no matter how you look at it.

Every Boro fans should be excited about the next game. When did people stop being supporters and urging the team on no matter where they are in the table?

No wonder the atmosphere is flat when people sit there worrying about the outside chance that things might go wrong and not enjoying the moment and dreaming about the possibilities.

COME ON BORO

BLT

(Ra-ra dreaming of Wembley)

Posted by: BLT  | March 4, 2008 12:38 PM

jiffy wrote...

Odds of 14-1 and 12th place looks fine for now but I doubt we will be in such a healthy position after the next 5 or 6 games.

A point out of 4 of those would be quite a surprise and surely we can't do a Reading on the game with Derby but wouldn't that be sooooo Boro!

I can see us being 3rd bottom come the games against Bolton and Sunderland.

If we got to the semis which of those games would have to be moved? If its a team still in the Champions league it could drop to the run-in.

The Geordies do look on extremely thin ice but there is a very crucial game for them coming up soon - a home game with Fulham.

Unlike everyone else I dont write Fulham off yet because all the teams have games against each other and Fulham have as much chance of a result in those as the rest and frankly i dont think they are the 2nd weakest in the league.

I would love to see them turn over the Geordies for example but if they didnt then it would give the Geordies a confidence boost that might save them.

Posted by: jiffy  | March 4, 2008 12:49 PM

David Morrison wrote...

The table dosn't lie and no matter how much a select few look on the down side we are in a very very good position, 3 points behind Spurs in 11 4 above Reading in 18th and on top of the Mags and Maccems plus the FA Cup qtr final against a poor cardiff side. what could be worse?

Ive looked at the table and from every angle it looks impossible that we could go down, we would need to lose every game and for the teams below us to win virtually every one of theirs. Derby and Fulham have gone so it leaves one place to fight for...

it could be worse we could support the barcodes...

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 4, 2008 1:06 PM

Never Happy wrote...

John Stone
28,000 minus the Sheff U fans - 25,000
23,000 minus the Reading fans - 22,800

Also against Sheff U the club reduced prices and added the 'keep the stub' incentive to get extra fans to the game.

I do agree that the crowds for PL games this season have been poor, the reasons have been discussed on these pages many times.

C'Mon Boro!

**AV writes: I think you are being very generous with your estimate of Blades fans. I reckoned 1,200-1,400.

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 4, 2008 1:26 PM

David Morrison wrote...

For me its Bolton or Newcastle, I just cant see where they are going to be able to put 2 or 3 wins together.

Boro can surely beat Derby, Bolton and Man City at home. Plus our record at the SOS is good so why not pick up another 3 there. We will be safe and are safe so concentrate on the cup and the league will take care of itself..

Also how much did we miss Aliadiere on saturday? think ive been wrong all along, one player with pace does meen your team is quick...

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 4, 2008 1:26 PM

Nigel wrote...

'A real geordie lurker'? Does that mean our very own 'Geordie Lurker' is really a chicken runner in disguise!

I'm shocked and appalled.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 4, 2008 1:54 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

It was more than the players who where struggling for fitness on Saturday.

Two courses against a dogged Blades team further agonised by the burden of extra time (and a very late Wednesday evening) to be followed by Reading for desert. No wonder there were empty seats.

The crowd was suffering from injuries to 4,000 of their key supporters. Added to which was the "Typical Boro" predications (eight straight defeats etc.) doing the rounds of the pubs, clubs and workplaces of Teesside beforehand.

Sure enough Boro never fail to live up to the "Typical Boro" tag. With the exception of Stewy and Tuncay the rest (like the crowd) were largely anonymous. Now if professional sportsmen were drained after Wednesday then why not the crowd?

Reading are hardly the most intimidating, vociferous, cynical, witty or hostile of away fans not to mention their terrible travel sickness. So not much of an excuse for the 23K to get worked up there then.

We started the game like a bunch of lads who had rolled out of a nightclub at 4 in the morning with Pizzas and Kebabs tightly clenched in either hand looking desperately for a taxi to anywhere (or at least a safe passage to our left wing!). Sadly we finished it the same way albeit looking even more bedraggled.

Now with that backdrop and scenario painted is it any wonder the events of Saturday unfolded the way it did

23,000 faithful did turn up, paid their hard earned (very hard earned in lots of cases) cash, sat frozen for 90 minutes and were hoping to see a team that had just qualified for the next round of the Cup be up for the challenge of beating the current whipping boys.

Instead they were treated to a spectacle which ranked as one of the seasons lowest points on the pitch. After 45 minutes I lost all feeling in my toes and nose, after 60 minutes I was starting to lose the will to live!

The truth is (as much as it hurts) that the ones that stayed away on Saturday (especially bearing in mind the cost of 3 home games in 11 days) called it right.

On the bigger picture I don't think for one minute we will go down. Yes we will probably lose to Derby and Sunderland as our obligatory gesture of living up to the "Typical Boro" tag but equally I expect us to spoil the Manchelsearse Utd party (again living up to "Typical Boro" billing) and survive on 38 points.

Posted by: Redcar Red  | March 4, 2008 2:27 PM

Never Happy wrote...

As predicted yesterday, the FA has once again showed how bent an organisation it is.

At a Regulatory Commission hearing today, a claim for wrongful dismissal from Chelsea's Frank Lampard was upheld. As a result, Lampard's three match suspension has been withdrawn.

Lampard was sent off for violent conduct during Chelsea's game against West Ham on Saturday 1 March.

**AV writes: Show favouritism to a big club? No way!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 4, 2008 2:34 PM

Don wrote...

I should just like to congratulate NEVER HAPPY on his absolutely spot on prediction in the last thread of the result of Chelsea's Lampard appeal. I hope his predictions on relegation are as accurate.

Don

Posted by: Don  | March 4, 2008 2:54 PM

paul wrote...

Even Gareth had a pop at the rubbish Boro fans. Nottm Forest had more in the first division last night - you will be playing them next year, deluded smoggy rubbish.

Posted by: paul  | March 4, 2008 3:00 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

Thats not a bad result for us, the FA could easily have added yet another another match to Aliadiere's ban.

There is of course a subtle difference in the original crimes, Aliadiere gently slapped Mascherano who stood there in surprise. Lampard stamped at and raked Boa Morte then pushed him to the ground. One is clearly violent conduct.

Rest my case.

Oh and one has a TS and one an SW1 postcode. Simple really

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 4, 2008 3:06 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - put my guesstimate on the amount of Sheff U fans down to a tincture or six before the game.

Don - The biggest suprise was that Coral's were going 3 to 1 about the ban been lifted.

Unfortunately for me I was stuck at work and unable to put my hard earned where my gob is.

Boro 3 Cardiff 0
Alves to break his duck

Boro to stay up and play Chelsea in the final.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 4, 2008 3:16 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

All joking apart what do you think the clubs response is going to be following the Lampard red card being rescinded?

Gibbo and Lamb having come out so strongly against the FA will they now put up or shut up?

Was the premeditated verbal assault just getting it off their chests, letting off steam only to calm down and just let it be?

From your understanding is their anything the club can do? If so are they doing it?

At the moment it appears that the ban will just run its course and we will just have to grin and bear it. If so, Gibbo and Lamb will have egg on their faces having gone so public. The establishment will just sit and smirk and nail us the next chance they get.


Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 4, 2008 4:03 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - Whats the news on Huth's ankle problem? Is it the old injury flaring up again?

4 surgeons are taking a tea break:

1st surgeon says "Accountants are the best to operate on because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered."

2nd surgeon says "Nope, librarians are the best. Everything inside them is in alphabetical order."

3rd surgeon says "Well you should try electricians. Everything inside them is colour coded."

4th surgeon says "I prefer FA Committee members. They're heartless, spineless, gutless and their heads and a**es are interchangeable."

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 4, 2008 4:03 PM

Chris D wrote...

BLT Wrote..

"We are 12th, lost two in 12 and are in the FA Cup quater-final against a lower league club. Look at our history - that is an EXCELLENT position to be in."

BLT - I am also dreaming of making it to Wembley, but our history actually doesn't suggest this is an EXCELLENT position. Our history points to a number of occasions that we have reached the latter stages of competitions against lower opposition or favourites to go through to the next round, only to fail.

Perhaps it would have been better for us to have drawn Man U Or Chelsea to give us more of a chance??

Many arguments at the moment, but I am sure "doom & gloomers" and the "optomists" all agree on one thing at least - Sunday night will be very enjoyable if we end up with a trip to Wembley once again.

Posted by: Chris D  | March 4, 2008 4:22 PM

lauren wrote...

Boro have only lost one game which they should have won so i don't think we should be worrying yet although it will be worrying when we play the lower teams now because we know we have to win.

If we had beaten reading we could have relaxed a bit more but I still think that we will pick up some points along the way which we wouldn't expect to get, like when we beat Portsmouth away and Arsenal at home. When Boro really need the points i think we'll get them.

Hopefully we will beat Cardiff without going to a replay so we can focus on the league more.

Posted by: lauren  | March 4, 2008 4:22 PM

John Mac wrote...

Can anybody really say they are surprised that Lampard got off scot free ??

It's about time that clubs got together & gave a vote of no confidence in this faceless commitee. Although a few might refuse to join in - Chelsea & Man U spring to mind. Any chance of starting a petition to bring this about AV ?

As for Sat anybody who doubts Rocky's contribution to the team must have been sitting very uncomfortably on Sat night. It was plain for all to see how much we missed him.

Nobody seemed to want the ball whereas no matter how he is playing you cannot say that about Rocky. Yes he gives the ball away now & again & gives silly free kicks away but his good points far outway his bad ones as Sat painfully proved.

Posted by: John Mac  | March 4, 2008 4:26 PM

Richard wrote...

Apologies for change of subject AV. But I’m ranting again!

Incredulity! Astonishment! Frustration! Indignation! Anger! Disbelief! Any permutation you like!

And that only begins to describe my feelings about the comparative Lampard/ Aliadiere treatment by the FA!

Our insightful "Never Happy" posted that the outcome would be as it has turned out. I chose not to comment, keeping my powder dry in the hope that fair play, common sense and a sense of political, as well as absolute or even relative correctness would triumph over pride, and unfair bias.

How naïve was I? (Never Happy - congratulations! You're more of a realist than I'll ever be! I'm obviously living in a land of dolly-mixture houses where people are all nice to each other and teenagers don't binge-drink!)

It was bad enough that the FA did what they did to Aliadiere before the Lampard incident. But to even compare Aliadiere's misdemeanour and subsequent punishment with Lampard's quite intentional retaliative stud-raking of Boa Morte, for which the former has now been pardoned, while Aliadiere has two further suspended matches to endure for fatally wounding Mascherano’s pride, just beggars belief!

So what are the FA saying here? Lampard didn't do it and their referee got it wrong? Impossible. The nation saw it all on TV on Saturday evening.

Lampard's reaction to his initial clash with Boa Morte was, if anything, more cold-blooded and considered than was Jeremy's in reaction to Mascherano's quite intentional and deliberate "hand in his face".

Also, the potential for personal injury to Boa Morte of Lampard's lashing out with feet, is several notches up on the scale of violence than Jeremy's open handed face tap of Mascherano. Not quite in the same league as the Taylor tackle that broke Eduardo’s leg in three places, but certainly somewhere in between!

I’m also sure that Taylor’s tackle was just clumsy and late and without injurious intent, whereas Lampard’s incident was clear retaliation to all. All except the shadowy and conveniently myopic FA disciplinary committee that is!

Perhaps it's not OK in the FA's eyes to cause a bit of redness to someone's cheek with an unprotected open palm, but it is OK to potentially seriously damage someone with the sole of your aluminium studded boot on the end of the strongest limb of your anatomy with the full weight of your body behind it. I mean, they can't even argue this one away on the basis of intended or potential damage!

So, in assessing the scale of misdemeanor in both cases, how can Lampard be absolved and Aliadiere not?

Moving on from the incident comparison:

What on Earth makes Chelsea's appeal "non-frivolous" and Boro's warranted of a further 1-match ban by comparison?

There was no question whatsoever about Lampard's kick-out reaction. No more so that Aliadiere's.

Something is clearly rotten in the state of the FA. And something really does need to be done about it.

Steve Gibson is right about the unprofessionalism and the (implied) opacity of that organisation. It's really time for some authority in this country to recognise that the FA is letting the sport of football and the country down.

To borrow a term from politics, "they are no longer fit to govern".

When England crashed out of Euro 2008, the FA, on sacking McClaren (which they had to do, if for no other reason than to reduce the immediate heat on themseves from an incandescent public), promised a "root and branch" enquiry and review of why this had happened and that things would be done to ensure that it didn't happen again.

At that time, I posted that any enquiry which didn't include the contributions of the FA itself, its inner workings, its decision-making, its policy influencing powers, its personnel and its contribution to the welfare of the game nationwide, would be worthless. Because it is the FA which is at the root of at least some of the game's ills.

So where’s the enquiry? After the cooling off period, after tempers have subsided and McClaren has been sacrificed on the FA’s altar and the new guy with the Pidgin English but otherwise impeccable credentials and huge salary installed, where’s the “root and branch” enquiry gone?

Where’s the long hard look at how the national game has been reduced to prostitution and transformed from sporting spectacle into rich mens’ plaything? (Sorry, a bit preemptive of the outcome of MY personal enquiry that was!) But seriously, what the hell can be done about it?

Do clubs have recourse in law? Is there a higher authority in the game to which we can take claims of inconsistent and unfair treatment? How do you go about causing serious reform in such an organisation?

What sanctions can be brought against the FA?

Because with outcomes such as the Lampard vs Aliadiere disciplinary cases continuing to happen, it just adds fuel to the fire of discontent with the status of the game of football in this country.

At a time when the game is under such scrutiny by the buying public, it feels to me like it's walking a tightrope and the tilt of the balancing pole has just taken a further small increment towards the game's whole credibility going into free-fall.

The FA's own credibility as the regulating body of football in England has been compromised time and time again and STILL there is no "root and branch" review of its workings or its personnel.

And I'm afraid that I consider Steve Gibson's remarks about Brian Barwick to be overly generous. I draw comparison between Barwick and Putin. I wouldn't trust either to be in charge of my worst enemy's scrotum!

Barwick was the guy who promised the root and branch stuff, but no doubt excluded his own organisaion from it, and then failed to deliver (again) to the public.

What I think the football-supporting public, the clubs and the players are entitled to know is “what do the FA intend to do about improving their own inept performances”?

If they were a football club, they’d be relegated! The fate that they would love to see apply to Boro yet again, no doubt!

Posted by: Richard  | March 4, 2008 5:05 PM

Rochdale Red wrote...

Hmm, I had Boro finishing safe and sound in 12th, with 44 points. Wins came against Derby, Bolton, Portsmouth and Man City. We drew with Villa (it could happen!), Man Utd (see Villa) and Sunderland. Losses v Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham - a London treble.

In my scenario, Birmingham join Fulham and Doomed Derby on the scrapheap. Newcastle and Sunderland are 13th and 14th respectively - I tried, but it's the best I could do, and I was attempting some sort of realism.

Arsenal win the PL, and Liverpool quite rightly are confined to 5th with Everton joining the rich...

Posted by: Rochdale Red  | March 4, 2008 5:40 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

I have at this point in the season no real worries over relegation. I look forward to every game Boro play and although i do get very frustrated when we lose the real frustrations this season were:

[1 ]the injuries to in form players Tuncay, Arca. Arca was on fire at the time and we were playing well and had some momentum and
[2] more recently Aliadierres red and extra match added especially in the light of lampards let off.

Aladdin had just started scoring and looking the part ripping defences apart with the ball glued to his boot and as much as anything he was proving his match fitness that only Downing has shown constantly and that has come from games. look at the table of who has played the most minutes as a player . Downing is up there!

Wouldn't it be great next season IN THE PREMIERSHIP to start the season with a fully fit squad.
Up the Boro

However as time passes and games go by I may change my mind

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | March 4, 2008 7:36 PM

Paul Bell wrote...

"The table dosn't lie and no matter how much a select few look on the down side we are in a very very good position"

Sorry but you are either a grade A idiotic buffoon or you have been on the Alcopops for too long.
Are you sure you are not a geordie???

"Ive looked at the table and from every angle it looks impossible that we could go down, we would need to lose every game and for the teams below us to win virtually every one of theirs."

This is possibly the most idiotic paragraph I have ever read on here. If Boro lose all of their games , other teams will have to win, not "virtually all of their games" but one and get 2 draws. You are nuts if you think that we are safe.

We are in this dogfight until we are mathematically safe and for the Boro's sake I hope the players are not as arrogant as you about the possibility of relegation.

Posted by: Paul Bell  | March 4, 2008 8:26 PM

Ray Porter wrote...

Richard's "rant" posted at 5.05pm hits the bullseye. It must have taken him ages to type it but I hope he feels better for it.

Some people might have thought Boro fans a little paranoid. But then the result of Lampard's red card appeal came through. The FA really is out to get us! You don't even have to own Harrods....

Unfairness, and the seething contempt it may cause, might result in a seige mentalilty which can bind the club and players together. It might help Gareth to wind the squad up. The best way to get our own back is by greater determination and success on the field, and we get our first opportunity for that this weekend against Cardiff.

Posted by: Ray Porter  | March 4, 2008 11:23 PM

tonyblack wrote...

If we show some of that famous Teesside steel we will definately stay up. If we don't and if we don't turn up and lose concentration, especially when playing against those clubs also down there, then we may well come unstuck. That said, I really can't see us going down.

But we just have to stay focused, play every game as if our lives depended on it and get out of this bloody situation before a potential cup final.

Cup final or no cup final, the last thing we want is to be going into the last few games where we are not allready mathematically safe, as anything can happen then and it usually does.

COME ON BORO - COME ON WHEATER with a few more goals please.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | March 4, 2008 11:57 PM

Andy, the Hague wrote...

Following is the text of a response I received from the FA (at least they replied!) - following that is my reply to that response.

***

"As you are aware, Middlesbrough’s Jeremie Aliadiere had his claim for wrongful dismissal rejected and will therefore serve a four match suspension.

"Regulatory Commissions may increase the penalty if they deem the claim to be frivolous, i.e. has no realistic chance of success and is therefore a waste of time and resources.

"On this basis, the Commission confirmed the automatic three match suspension for the offence, plus an additional match as they considered the claim to be frivolous. This has happened to Burnley, Mansfield Town, Luton Town, Tranmere Rovers and Hartlepool United this season - as well as Middlesbrough.

"Under FIFA rules, a Regulatory Commission of The FA can only overturn a dismissal if the Commission is satisfied that the referee made a serious and obvious error. The vast majority of appeals are rejected on that basis and clubs are fully aware of the rules.

"Again, under FIFA rules The FA cannot ‘re-referee’ matches. In the interests of fairness, claims for wrongful dismissal are allowed in the case of serious and obvious error only – as an exception to FIFA’s general approach.

"This facility is not supposed to give players a second bite at the cherry but to allow claims to succeed only in very limited circumstances. The onus is on the appealing Club to prove that a serious and obvious error has been made.

"While I appreciate this may not alleviate your concerns, I can assure you that this case was dealt with in line with all claims for wrongful dismissal; The FA strongly refutes any suggestion that certain clubs are treated differently to others.

"Our concern is to be even handed across the board and we are confident that the disciplinary procedures off the pitch as well as the referees on the pitch uphold the Laws of the Game without any bias to player or club".

***

You are quite correct that this response does not in any way alleviate my 'concerns', nay, righteous anger at the treatment handed down to Middlesbrough by the FA.

Citing Burnley, Mansfield Town, Luton Town, Tranmere Rovers and Hartlepool United as having suffered a similar fate does absolutely nothing to instill in me a sense of fair play on the part of the Football Association. Those clubs are hardly members of football's elite in the same way that Middlesbrough are not.

The overturning of Lampard's dismissal only serves to bolster my opinion of your organisation and further, if you want delve into recent history, the dismissal of Michael Essien, which on appeal was upheld yet without increase to the punishment was retrospectively another nail in the coffin of football democracy in light of the Aliadiere debacle.

So no amount of refutations on your behalf will persuade the fans of football's also-rans that there can be any justice expected from your autocracy."

Posted by: Andy, the Hague  | March 5, 2008 7:10 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

I am working on the basis that the Aliadiere case is well and truly shut on the basis there are no rumblings or hints from anywhere.

The Gazette may know something which they cannot reveal it but Andy's post suggests the FA have the the wagons circled. Anyway another week and it wont matter because he will have served his ban.

Back to the league, I will reiterate my stances - I think we will stay up. My concern is that we are sitting thinking we will get points here and there. The other clubs and fans are doing the same.

Speaking to a Villa fan he said Reading were unlucky to lose to them and that they had more chances. Reading clearly developed a game plan for the Boro match and stated it. They knew we had played Wednesday and used that to help motivate themselves, squeeze the game and defend in depth, work hard and see what comes of it.

Our view was that it was three points to take us clear, they viewed it as a chance of damage limitation and just a chance to nick it.

For each match we will develop a game plan but so will the other teams, We are thinking get three points from Bolton, they will be looking at what Reading did and hoping to repeat it.

Derby are dead and buried, there for the taking, Jewell will be telling them the Boro match is a real chance to get that away win.

The trip to the Mackems gives us a chance to create some daylight, Keane will be looking at the Boro match in the same way as Reading. This is a team we can work hard against, keep it tight and give it a go.

And that is only the sides near the bottom, the same considerations go for the rest of the matches, teams are playing for european places and pride. Points are there to be won but the right attitude and professionalism has to be shown.

It is all ifs and buts which is the beauty of football, sadly it gives out pain as well as pleasure.

Cardiff first and a good win please, wont be up for that match but I am off to Villa which is more important to our future.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 5, 2008 9:49 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Mascherano raised his hands and not even a booking.

Eboue slapped Pogo and not even a booking.

Essien elbowed Miller, sent off but not viewed as a frivolous appeal.

Lampard appeal overturned.

Gallas' cowardly swipe at Nani with his back turned and no action taken.

Adebayor hits Bendtner and no action taken

Petrov does the same for Man C against Everton and is sent off.

I am sure there are many more incidents of big 4 favoritism

How does the spoesman from the FA keep a straight face when he says all teams are treated equally.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 5, 2008 10:14 AM

David Morrison wrote...

With regards to the Lampard red card, I think it was right to overturn it. Ive watched it a few times and the only thing that i can see wrong is that he pushes boa morte who is already on the floor.

Yes it maybe classed as violent conduct but its not in the same class as the Aliadiere incident and this is where gibbo and lamb are pushing the issue.

The laws state that if a player acts in a violent manner towards another player then it is deemed violent conduct.
Therefore a push, in some eyes may be seen as violence and therefore a red card.

The referee thought this was enough to warant a red card therefore it was violent enough for him so why not the FA?

The problem lies between referees and the FA and not one of them can be singled out. If ref are allowed to use there common sence and ref the game how they see it and only major incidents looked at then all this would be tittle tattle.

The FA have made it worse by making this review panel and therefore undermiming the ref.

The law is also a grey area, like i have said another ref may have booked Lampard and not sent him off.

My opinion is that it wasnt a red card for lampard but was for Aliadiere. You cannot in the modern game raise your hands to an oponents face and aliadiere did so no argument however frivolous...

Its done now, move on.....

Come on Boro!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 5, 2008 11:07 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

So we have Steve Gibson bouncing about like Tigger and Gate doing a passable imitation of Eeyore over the Lampard/Aliadiere red cards. Which one is Winnie the Pooh with his hand in the honey jar? Rocky or Midriff?

Even more convinced the case is shut so lets now move on much as it irritates.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 5, 2008 11:38 AM

Never Happy wrote...

David Morrison

What about Lampard kicking out at Boa Morte?

Why wasn't Mascherano sent off for raising his hands to Aliadiere?

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 5, 2008 12:06 PM

jc wrote...

Never Happy:

Add Sibierski's kick out just a few games ago - no action.

Although the Lampard incident was relatively harmless, it had a bit of previous behind it and what disturbed me about it was Lampard clearly saying "you're dead, you're dead, you're dead" afterwards. Do death threats count as unsporting behaviour?

Posted by: jc  | March 5, 2008 12:08 PM

Never Happy wrote...

JC - not if you play for the big 4

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 5, 2008 12:34 PM

Teamunster wrote...

AV - I had a go at Premiership predictor. I was probably less optimistic about Boro results than I should have been but we still stayed up. Let's just hope the Reading game was a one off bad result. I think it will be Bolton or Birmingham for the drop.

Yesterday my daily commute back to Teesside from the land of the deluded ones proved to me why MFC made the decision not to have Century broadcast our games. They opened it stating that there was complete chaos over tickets for the game on Sunday.

I have two points to make here - the ticket office have coped very well in a short space of time to cater for the high demand for two home cup games and MFC should be congratulated for this and the pricing of the tickets.

The whole process has been well communicated on various websites, forums and newspapers. Well done Dave Allen for calling Century yesterday and putting the ill informed oafs in their place.

Secondly, the fact that MFC have sold out of tickets IS NOT THEIR FAULT and I have no sympathy whatsoever with people who have not got a ticket. There were about 12k extra tickets against Reading that they could have made good use of. The club needs support throughout the season not just on a cup run.

I find it incredible that the armchair brigade are the first to moan when they realise that it is not their divine right to get a ticket on the few occassions they decide to grace the Riverside with their presence.

COME ON BORO!!!!

Posted by: Teamunster  | March 5, 2008 1:47 PM

London-based Boro fan wrote...

This (from yesterday's 'Times') may have had more than a little bearing on the entirely predictable outcome of Lamps' appeal:

"Referee says he was wrong to send off Lampard"

Matt Hughes

"Frank Lampard is likely to escape suspension for his sending-off against West Ham United after Peter Walton, the referee, said yesterday that he was wrong to show the Chelsea midfield player a red card in the 4-0 win at Upton Park on Saturday.

"It is understood that Walton wrote to the FA yesterday saying that he had looked at the incident again and had made an error of judgment. Lampard was sent off because, in the view of one of the assistant referees, he struck Luis Boa Morte in the face, although replays showed that he pushed the Portugal winger in the chest.

"Lampard’s appeal will be heard by a four-man judicial commission this morning, with Walton’s testimony likely to carry significant weight. Chelsea must prove that there was a “serious and obvious error” to have the card rescinded and have submitted a DVD to support their case, as well as written submissions from several players.

"Chelsea have become used to being frustrated by the FA’s streamlined disciplinary process this season, with appeals against the red cards shown to John Obi Mikel, Michael Essien and Ashley Cole rejected, but they are confident of being satisfied on this occasion.

"Although Jérémie Aliadière, the Middlesbrough striker, suffered the double blow of being given a four-match ban as punishment for a “frivolous” appeal against his sending-off against Liverpool the weekend before last, there is one precedent in Chelsea’s favour this season, with Lee Bowyer having a red card rescinded after West Ham United’s league match against Birmingham City."

Be that as it may, the whole sorry business stinks - and smacks of double standards: one rule for the "Big 4", another for all the rest! Bunch of tossers in suits...

Posted by: London-based Boro fan  | March 5, 2008 2:32 PM

David Morrison wrote...

Never Happy, Ive not seen the kick so cant realy comment. Ive only seen the incident that he was sent off for.

As for Mascherano the ref says he saw it so we have to assume it wasnt classed as violent enough. Provocation yes but aliadiere shouldnt have raised his hands.

The facts are that a slap can be seen as violent, a frivolous poke on the nose not so thats why he was sent off thats why we lost the appeal. End of.

COME ON BORO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 5, 2008 3:02 PM

Never Happy wrote...

David Morrison - Granted, Aliadiere should have known better than to raise his hands, however the list that I posted earlier are all incidents which in my opinion were more violent than what Aliadiere did at Anfield.

Is it just a coincidence that all of the players that were not sent off play for the big 4?

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 5, 2008 3:31 PM

mark j wrote...

Right, Nobody use the word FRIVOLOUS please as I am gonna kick off!

Posted by: mark j  | March 5, 2008 3:35 PM

David Morrison wrote...

Never Happy, I agree with you the the "big 4" always get the decisions but that has been going on for decades.

When was the last time the big 4 conceded a penalty at home that changed the game and wasnt a consolation for the away side?

Those incidents that you have touched upon may have not been seen by the ref and no action taken or seen and only a yellow card brandished therefore the incident has been dealt with and the panel cant change that.

Only red cards are appealed and that is where the confusion is setting in as refs decisions are being made to look stupid and ill thought out by the fa.

We need a sub divide in the law ie,
Violent conduct:
Punch: 4 game ban
Kick: 3 game ban
2 footed tackle: 3 game ban
slap: 1 game ban/ yellow card

if this was introduced Boro wouldnt have appealed..

what do you think?

Posted by: David Morrison  | March 5, 2008 3:46 PM

dave wrote...

Why all the fuss about Ali? It is not as if he is one of our best players and his goals will be missed

Posted by: dave  | March 5, 2008 4:10 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Dave-
Look at our best performances this season and guess what Aliadierre has been alongside Tuncay for all of them.

Boro2 Arsenal 1 [goal 95thmin]

Boro1 Liverpool 1 [torres wonderstrike]

35minutes against Blackburn [until Tuncay got injured]

We were coming back into the game against Liverpool after 2mistakes until Aliadierre got sent off. Mascerano raised his hand first as he was annoyed that his team were not controlling the game at that point.

Ali is one of our fastest and fittest players and had been doing well partnering Tuncay up front. Okay the lad is not Fernando Torres but Torres cost 10 times more.

Apart from Downings assists it has been Aliadierres running at defences at pace and getting to the by line and into the channels that has brought our midfeild up and taken pressure of our defence and put pressure on the oppositions defence.

He has done it against Arsenal and twice against Liverpool and thats good enough for me.

Southgate will vary the striking line up depending on the opponents but if you look at the top goal scorers in the prem you will find they all have pace.

Cristiano Ronaldo 21
Emmanuel Adebayor 19
Fernando Torres . 15

The fuss is also down to the fact that Alves and especially Mido were not and are still not fully fit in his absence and Dong Gook is not on fire. Some people only appreciate goal scorers but its a team that supply the strikers.

As far as running down our own players is concerned , the players have been working hard- okay we missed Rochemback against Reading but I think Southgate is selecting the right team most of the time with the players we have got available .

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | March 5, 2008 11:09 PM

Never Happy wrote...

David M - good idea but how many committee's and sub committee's would these rule changes need to go through before any law was changed?

Most of those who started the rule change would probably be dead before the rule was changed.

Also like FIFA the FA like to make money and there would be no money in these rule changes.

Look how long it has taken to get goal line technology, the latest idea is to have a goal line referee at each end of the pitch

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 6, 2008 8:47 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Time for the Cup, what would be nice is a comfotable win at first time of asking.

It would set us up for a run of tricky fixtures broken by the game against hapless Derby - I wont even discuss the implications of not winning this one. It would boost confidence.

Our reward for winning? As we are due to play Manu on the 6th April the odds must be heavily weighed if favour of a couple of a league and cup matches close together. Oddly we are playing Chelsea the weekend before so we could double up on that.

But that is getting ahead of ourselves, Sunday first.

Onto something contentious, assuming we get past Cardiff I hope the club have learnt from previous ticketing problems. As I wont be entitled to a semi final ticket I can speak without fear of accusations of sour grapes.

Do the club know which non season ticket holders have bought tickets for cup matches this season? Do they know who has bought tickets regularly without being a season ticket holder? Have they got a fan database to ensure those that deserve tickets for Wembley get them? Or will it be another stub lottery?

Answers on a postcard........ It isnt easy to sort out but I fear it will be another match where some of those who deserve to go will lose out to people who havent attended being given ticket stubs.

But lets get through this match first, I will be off to Villa Wednesday.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 6, 2008 9:37 AM

Tees Betting Scene wrote...

I still feel Boro will survive this season but why oh why do they have to keep us dangling? A win against Reading last week would have left us home and dry in the Premier League with an FA Cup quarter-final to look forward to.

Defeat to Reading has left us looking over our shoulders wondering if we should forget cup glory and just focus on getting the points needed! We can never have our cake and eat it!

Typical Boro you could say!

Posted by: Tees Betting Scene  | March 6, 2008 11:02 AM

beeline wrote...

It's two days since Never Happy asked about Huth's ankle injury. Still no news.

Some folks claiming to have contacts at the club say he'll be out for the season.

This could have a massive impact on some of the marginal games we have coming up.

Are you not picking up anything from the club?

**AV writes: He walked through the Hurworth reception under his own steam yesterday without any indication that people around him expected a bit to fall off. That said he wasn't included in the reserves team going to play Man United tonight. I will ask for more details.

Posted by: beeline  | March 6, 2008 12:49 PM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Yes Ian, oh for a good win first time on Sunday, a full house (it's official it's a sell out) so hopefully "untypical" Boro will turn up on Sunday and we can look forward to the first of a possible two jaunts to Wembley.

Which brings us on the hand grenade you threw in regarding tickets (naughty !!).

What I can tell you is that as a season card holder (ex prefix S Red Book holder), the club are I believe using the new technology to log when season card holders buy cup game tickets.

I say this because for the Sheff Utd home game and the forthcoming Cardiff game, no paper ticket was issued to card holders. Instead the card is "programmed" such that the card is presented to the card reader at the turnstile as normal.

This being the case, then clearly non-season card holders may find themselves disadvantaged.

One could hope that the same technology could be used to log who buys what tickets for what game, regardless of whether they are card holders or not.

But to achieve this then names and addresses would need to be collected and entered onto a data base at the time of purchase. Not easy and fraught with problems on how to manage the data and use it, particularly where credit/debit card details are concerned.

Having heard that fans are being advised to retain their cup ticket stubs it would point to there being no fan database. If there were then we would have seen some evidence of fans being asked to "register" with the club, even if they are not season card holders. Much the same as when you buy something on-line.

So get ready for the fall out, I sense another debate on this issue coming on.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | March 6, 2008 1:02 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Why not have a right go at Cardiff and play 3 up front?

Schwarzer
Young (I thought I read somewhere he was banned for one game, no mention of it on Boro or FA sites)
Wheater
Pogo
Grounds
O'Neill
Rocky (Cattermole)
Downing
Tuncay
Mido
Alves

Lets take the game to them, we can always tighten things up when we are winning 3 - 0

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 6, 2008 1:17 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Neil

That is why I lobbed the aforementioned projectile into the ring.

I was one of those who missed out on Cardiff despite having been to the cup matches though there were many more people with stronger claims than myself.

Truth is I couldnt get to queue due to living and working away from Boro. At the time I exchanged corrspondence with AV on the subject and managing the database is one my recurring themes over the seasons since then. Things can go wrong but not doing something to prevent it happening again is unforgiveable.

I fear the writing is on the wall - the club stating that people could buy a maximum of six tickets each is a give away that they dont know who have bought tickets.

I will repeat the following story yet again, if you have read it before please skip it. Many moons ago we played Derby at Pride Park on Boxing Day (Mikel Beck scored for us and we lost 2-1) and away end tickets had gone. I had to buy tickets amongst Derby fans. I was given a card with a member number.

Several years later I rang up for U21 tickets, they knew who I was and where I lived. They would have been able to tell you what I had bought and when.

Boro have enough info to try and get me to take out a credit card and use the club shop but do they know who has bought what tickets and when?

Part of the problem last time was that people gave stubs to their friends and who can blame anyone for helping a mate. Tales of touts selling stubs to fans queueing for tickets and the club selling up to 5 tickets for the requisite number of stubs left a nasty taste.

If we do end up with a similar situation it is going to alienate the walk up fans and turn them into absentees.

A clear and transparent policy should have been published years ago, the aftermath of Cardiff was as good a time as any. Eindhoven proved a watershed because of the bad feeling over ticket allocation for that match when season ticket holders felt no better treated than the casual fans had been for Carling Cup Final.

With our regular league crowd down at 26,000 or below the club should be able to reward the regular walk up fans who turned out for the cup matches as well but will they?

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 6, 2008 1:51 PM

London-based Boro fan wrote...

Oh oh! Lawro's at it again:

"Middlesbrough v Cardiff (1400 GMT)

Middlesbrough have been live on the BBC three times in this season's FA Cup - once against Mansfield and twice against Sheffield United. They also won 2-1 at Bristol City in the third round in January.

Each time they have eventually got across the line, but they have not really ever been particularly convincing. They have had a week off to prepare for the match against Cardiff - and with a place in the semi-finals at stake I cannot believe they will fall at this hurdle.

Cardiff boss, Dave Jones, however, will believe that Boro are there for the taking. He will tell his players to get into Boro early on. If they can keep it tight for the first 20 minutes or so, then the groans might start in the stands.

Boro can be very inconsistent and this could be a tight game.

Verdict: 2-1"

Posted by: London-based Boro fan  | March 6, 2008 4:33 PM

Pat Mc, Dubai wrote...

The relegation fight? All we have to do is beat Derby (not so difficult surely) and beat Bolton at home, then pick up two or three points from several good opportunities.

FOUR GOOD PERFORMANCES OUT OF TEN and we retain our premiership status. I just hope we (the players and the fans) don't get stricken with anxiety and nerves, which do little to help performances.

Even if we get only four points from those two games mentioned we have ample opportunity from our last two home games against Man C and Pompey to leave the rest behind.

What I don't like is that two teams, Bolton and Wigan will be playing Chelsea and Man U on the last day...remember West Ham taking advantage of the fact that Man U didn't care on the final day of last season?

Ordinarily, that game would have been 3-0. And...do you thing Fergy will want to put the knife into Bruce? Anelka wanting to help send Bolton down?

Hopefully the Premiership race will go to the last day. I fancy a 1-1 draw for us at Villa who look better equipped to win away from home.

Cardiff game? 3-0, no problem. This is going to be the game where we really do the business. Alves to score twice. Get your 50p on it.

Thankfully I can watch it on TV here in Dubai. I wish I could be at the Riverside. You lucky ones, SING YOUR HEARTS OUT FOR THE LADS.

Pat Mc

Posted by: Pat Mc, Dubai  | March 6, 2008 5:35 PM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Ian

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, I almost missed out on Eindhoven but for an 11th hour reprieve when a friend here in Baku was able to get tickets via the Azerbaijan Football Federation.

Why the club cannot run a set up similar to the one you describe at Derby is beyond me.

A membership scheme for walk up fans, even if they cannot for whatever reason become season card (ticket) holders, would at least go some way to ensuring that when important cup tickets are distributed there will be a transparent fair system that everyone can see.

Such a scheme may even have spin off benefits for MFC in terms of retail sales if the fans that do become members actually feel part of the club.

Sadly it looks like it is again another PR mismanagement excercise, although I am sure MFC will "assure" fans that everything was above board and they are happy the current system is fair.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | March 7, 2008 4:37 AM

Nigel wrote...

So in last nights UEFA cup, Spurs lost at home (I'm gutted!!!), Everton lost , Bolton conceeded a goal at home and only drew.

Its a tough competition the UEFA cup when its down to the last 16. Only the best teams make it to the final...........

Posted by: Nigel  | March 7, 2008 9:02 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Neil

I dont know how Derby works now, it was some years ago but they did know I bought tickets for one match several years earlier.

Boro may have the information but dont link it together and use it. I dont know but selling six tickets to a fan doesnt lend itself to the view of joined up thinking.

At one time I used to come up for quite a few cup matches especially mid week - it is a late night after pens against Everton, getting out of the Riverside and then driving to Derby. Several people did the same thing from London and were regulars.

As there is stuff all chance of a ticket even if I go to the matches I now concentrate my appearances on the league so I am at Villa next week.

This is not a one man, anti club, neg head campaign I would just like that after the season ticket holders and others entitled to tickets receive theirs that the people who have paid for and been to the matches get a fair shout.

Anyway, let us hope the match is a good one and we get through.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 7, 2008 9:36 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Both stories a bit off track however both make interesting reading.

If Blatter gets his way how long will it be before football becomes a non contact sport

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7282851.stm

Part of the article reads:

Blatter told The Times: "Dangerous tackling is one of the most important issues in football at the moment.

"Therefore players who do this kind of thing intentionally should be banned from the game."

He added: "Attacking somebody is criminal, whether it happens on a football pitch or elsewhere. It is a crime and should be treated as such."

This is slightly different to the FAs stance on Grays player Sestanovich who has just been jailed for 8 years for his part in a robbery and murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7280939.stm

The FA are threatening to suspend Grays if they don't pay this guy £14,000.

Should be a great atmosphere on Sunday which will hopefully spark the Boro into a top performance.

3 - 0 with Alves, O'Neill and Wheater scoring the goals

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 7, 2008 2:20 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Ian, Neil

I hope you both manage to get tickets for whatever Wembley appearances we make.

I fully understand the concerns. As an S-prefix season ticket holder I thought I was guaranteed a seat for Eindhoven. I wasn't, and only made it to the game because my brother (also S-prefix) has connections through his refereeing to the FA.

I think though that you should send your concerns to the new PR guy - (what's his name AV - Neil Bausor?) He seems to have some good ideas for bringing fans back on board - so far we've had the Wheater video, the white band consultation and cheaper prices (a full house v Cardiff!!), and I've no doubt that he would listen to any views expressed about the ticket / fan database.

I'm going to write to him to see if he can get park and ride buses laid on from parts of the town - I'm sure many fans resent the long walks in and out of the Riverside.

And now all we need is a win on Sunday. And frankly I don't care if we win 1-0 with the ball bouncing off the ref's a*se. C'mon Boro!

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | March 7, 2008 5:49 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Clive

I would like the tickets to go to people who deserve them, I want them going to people who have been to the cup matches or have attended regularly home and away.

I wouldnt even begrudge Powls who plows the southern furrows a ticket or two!

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 7, 2008 7:28 PM

Richard wrote...

A little the worse for wear after a couple of shots of the golden nectar, late on Friday evening, I have a small cynical contribution to make to the discussion on ticketing arrangements for late stage cup matches.

My 10 sound priorities for ticket allocation are as follows:

1 Today, the game is about money. So, I say, let people who can afford them have the tickets!

2 Today, the game is about winning - nothing else. So, I say, let those who can get in there first, who can pull strokes, favours and who have contacts in the game, get the tickets, by any means possible! Fair means or foul!

3 Today, the game is about players and how much they can get out of the game. So, I say, let the players have as many concession tickets as they want for family, friends and let’s not forget their agents!

4 Today, the game is about corporate entertainment, So I say, let the club’s hospitality suite owners have as many tickets as they need for a) themselves, b) their clients, c) their suppliers, d) their bankers, e) their lawyers, f) their employees!

5 Today, the game relies on the press. So, I say, let the press have as many tickets as they want, in addition to the free passes the match reporters get!

6 Today, the game relies on TV. So, I say, let the TV networks have as many tickets as they require to satisfy their own corporate needs!

7 Today the game relies on regulation by the FA, Premier League, UEFA, FIFA, their committees, their employees, their advisers and their political friends (and enemies – just in case!). So, I say, let them have as many tickets as they need to make sure they stay onside!

8 Today the game is about paying off the FA’s Wembley debts. So, I say, let the Wembley contractors, the financiers, the lawyers, the banks, the brokers, the movers, the shakers, the hangers-on and their mistresses, all have tickets! And let’s not forget the FA’s pledges to the Wembley Club members - most of whom I imagine support nobody but themselves!

9 Today the game is about sponsorship. So, I say, let the sponsors of the game, of the clubs involved, of the referee and his assistants’ shorts and the whistle supplier all have tickets!

10 If there are any tickets left after that, sell them to supporters of the participating clubs and charge them as much for them as you can. (See 1 & 2 above).

In case individual clubs are less than adept at extracting full market value however, the game’s authorities, their affiliates and subsidiary parasites are lying in wait.

The event will be staged in the new Wembley in the Capitol – irrespective of which clubs qualify. What a difference that makes to the day out for those of us who want to see our teams play football and to feel passionate about it! We wouldn’t get that feeling at Old Trafford now, would we? Nope! We wouldn’t get that Sid James’s Park or at Villa Park, now would we? Nope! Of course not!

There MUST be a mass migration the length of the country for it to be the spectacle that we all expect! It couldn’t happen anywhere other than in the Capitol City, now could it? Now isn’t that a convenience? That way, Virgin Rail, BA, British Midland, National Express, BP, Shell, etc all can have a share of the spoils.

As if that isn’t enough, if the migrating planks are daft enough to want eat or drink during their privileged trip to the centre of the known universe, then they can stump up disproportionate amounts of residual funds (that really belong in the Capitol anyway and the provincial Oiks only have it on loan) via the extortionate prices they’ll be charged at Wembley for life’s sustenance – presented of course in an up-market and prestigious venue, specially selected for you by your friendly FA!

Other beneficiaries of course are, Hospitality Inns, Premier Inns, Marriots, etc.

Is it any wonder that many people stay away from league matches at the Riverside when they have to save up in case trips like that come up?

All that said, I hope to be going too! But I’d have been just as happy – if not happier, watching Boro perform in an FA Cup Semi-Final at Sid James Park. Oh Yesssss!!

C’mon Boro, get us through to Wembley!

By the way guys, I think AV’s been out of the office this week! It’s been a bit quiet – don’t you think?

**AV writes: I'm been very busy elsewhere... I'm covered in briliiant white gloss. Family life must go on.

Posted by: Richard  | March 8, 2008 2:02 AM

bugrit wrote...

It's too late for this season but all that is needed in future is something akin to a store lovalty card.

I'm thinking of the kind of arrangement they have at W H Smith's where anyone can have a card, without supplying any personal info. Ticket allocation could be made dependent on previous attendances or perhaps on previous spend.

Posted by: bugrit  | March 8, 2008 2:34 AM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Yeah, where is JP these days, at the Riverside tomorrow I hope?

I might just do that Clive and write to Mr Bausor, and I like the idea regarding park & ride. There are quite a few clubs I've been to where they put buses on, Southampton for example, where like us the stadium is out of town a little.

Anyway onwards and upwards, hopefully see you all on Wembley Way (at least once this season)

C'mon Boro.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | March 8, 2008 7:01 AM

John Powls wrote...

Neil

JP's still around - but unfortunately not able to get to The Riverside on Sunday.

On the ticketing issue a first (for me) with the Arsenal game coming up.

The tickets were advertised for general sale on 6 March but a couple of days before that, notices went on the website to say they'd sold out to season ticket holders so no chance for the rest of us.

I have been following Boro on the away grounds in London and the South East since we moved here over 10 years ago and never before have I failed to get a ticket.

Our away ends in London and the South East are generally full eventually but if you were quick on the phone you could always get a ticket.

I rang the club to find out why this phenomenon occurred this time. They explained that at The Emirates they could either take 1,400 or 3,000 but if they sold only 1,401 they were committed to buy the full 3,000 once they had opted for that and felt that it was too much of a gamble.

They have usually taken 1,400 in the past and thats about average for an away end allowance in the Prem and usually no problem for non season ticket holders to get tickets.So you can understand why they took the route they did.

They couldn't explain why it was different this time. So why is this game all of a sudden so popular?

Is it because it is at the start of what may be the Easter break for some and they're combining it with a trip to London?

Do they not believe they need to save their hard earned for what will doubtless be a terrifyingly expensive Cup Semi ticket? In which case some of us down here might actually get one.

Is it just another random exception like the strange blip of the full house at The Riverside for the Liverpool game?

Is it some sort of 'fin de siecle' mood amongst season ticket holders who think we're going down and want to savour the Prem grounds one last time?

Anyone got a clue?

We may get some sort of answer from the Chelski game at the end of the month. That was going to be on a Monday night and on Setanta, the Chelski prices are eye-watering and its only a week before the Cup Semi - if we get there.

So, no probs getting a ticket for there, I thought. But now its been switched back to either the Saturday or Sunday because of Chelski's Champs League commitments.

So, will Phil and I get a ticket then?

Posted by: John Powls  | March 8, 2008 11:39 AM

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