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Boro Set For Multi-Coloured Swap Shop?

Posted by on December 3, 2007 5:21 PM | 

IS IT TIME for some tough decisions at cash-strapped Boro? With January looming and the smoke signals from Hurworth suggesting there is very little in the transfer kitty, Boro may well be forced to sell before they can buy.

Will the top brass bite the bullet and cash in some of the very few prizes assets to recruit the firepower desperately needed if we are to avoid the drop? And if so, who?

Quizzed about the glaring need for reinforcements on January 1st beleaguered boss Gareth Southgate revealed that while he is mentally drawing up his Fantasy Football team, watching players and writing his wish list complete with Argos catalogue page and item numbers for Santa (the source of the leak about Ronaldinho?), he is realistic enough to know that he is actually going to get socks, some smellies and a pair of cuff-links in his stocking. Or maybe Paul Dickov if he has been really good.

Southgate will have chilled the hearts of many supporters when he warned the Gazette that any players coming in may not arrive until the final week of the transfer window and that shot-shy Boro could have to trudge on with what they have got - a relegation haunted squad that has been found woefully inadequate - until February. Early bids are rarely successful he said, even when you have done the spade work before the window opens, as rivals teams don't want to let good players go. Even if they are willing to sell it is usually at an initially inflated price but if you hold your nerve and keep a poker face then the level of resistance and the price starts to fall as the window starts to close.

We know that Boro do not have the cash to launch a fully funded recruitment drive. As revealed last week, the most recently published financial results reported a £13m loss in the year that ended with the UEFA Cup final. Since then all the signs have been that Boro are heading at full steam towards "a team Teesside can afford" with squad numbers being reduced, wage bills being trimmed, Keith Lamb outlining a more austere era of lower cost bases and lower expectations, and even long term senior staff like Graham Fordy being axed as part of what was described as a 'corporate structural review.'

Now the boss has taken to using the time worn phraseology that rings alarm bells about not being able to compete with the big boys and having to 'cut our cloth' , a mantra that should have been translated into latin and inscribed on the new badge.

Perhaps more interestingly and potentially more revealing the boss also threw in for the first time that Boro may have to sell before they could buy or pursue some more colourful purchasing strategies. He admitted he wanted to make wholesale changes and told the Gazette:


“You want to try to change every aspect as much as you can but we are competing with the big boys in the transfer market and we will have to be more creative. I have some idea of what I have got and we will have to be creative, but we might have to raise some money. I am comfortable with that. I know we have not got a lot to play with. That’s why I'm bringing younger players through.�


The heavily weighted words there that should trigger the alarms are "raise some money" and "creative". That screams out that he may have to sell before he can buy the striker he needs to save our top flight status, or possibly use current established players as bait to land new faces, as sweetener to persuade their clubs to sell or swap.

Which begs the question: which Boro players would raise any substantial fees or be enticing enough to tempt clubs into trading? Sadly, the quickly realisable assets are very few, an indictment of Boro's scouting and purchasing policies in recent years. There are no fringe players who Boro can cash in, no journeymen pros in the stiffs who can "do a job" for another Premiership or solvent Championship club for a few million, no bench-warmers that are coveted by middle-ranking clubs looking to plug gaps of their own. Most of them - Nemeth, Job, Maccarone, Parnaby - left on free transfers as part of the squad trimming and weren't replaced.

And most of the youngsters will raise very little or are indispensable - David Wheater is out of contract in the Summer, Andrew Taylor is the first choice left back, all bar one of the rest are bit part players who are very unlikely to attract suitors - and besides, the publicly stated policy of the club is that the Academy production line is the future of the club.

Which leaves Southgate having to face up to some big decisions. The only realistic assets that will raise big money quickly are Stewart Downing, Jonathan Woodgate and Adam Johnson - dare he bite the bullet and take the political risks inherent in selling the most high profile current players or the hottest young prospect to fund a move for a marksman?

Who else would raise big money and fast? At a glance you may get:

Schwarzer - £250,000 - out of contract and out of form ... and would need replacing.
Luke Young £2m - money back fairly easily ... but would need replacing.
Chris Riggott - £1.5m with a good wind behind him.
Andrew Taylor - £2m to the right buyer... but would need replacing.
Rochemback - hard to see an English side taking the chance and his wages rule out Portugal.
George Boateng - age and wages probably rule out profitable sale.
Julio Arca - £2.5m - easy to sell ... not so easy to replace for that money.
Mido - unsellable while crocked.
Lee Dong Gook - unsellable for a fee.
Gary O'Neill - inconceivable the boss would sell his best buy.
Lee Cattermole - £1m - the energetic rough diamond and mooted future Boro captain is a great prospect, but right now? He may attract Championship interest.
Pogatetz - £2m - would sell, but is a battler when we really need one and cover at left back.
Aliadiere - £2m - would sell, but is brightest spark going forward.
Tuncay - £3-4m - would maybe sell, but wages probably rule out return to obvious buyers in Turkey.

Which leaves who exactly? Stewart Downing has long attracted envious glances from other clubs. Spurs are perennial stalkers and Everton have registered an interest while Manchester City have also had a sniff. Forget the boo boys - Boro and England - and any concerns about a currebt dip in form: if Stewy became available there would be no shortage of takers for a natural left footer who has pace and a pin-point delivery. He may shine on a bigger stage and arguably in career terns it is the right time for him to move on.

There has been talk of the local lad being unhappy at getting a chicken run roasting this term - after all he is the top scorer, the assist king and the first Teessider at the World Cup since Alan Peacock so is a legitimate target. It was denied but stories like that in the national press cause ears to prick up and big clubs will have been running the rule over him. He would be snapped up quickly for £8m and if Boro could contrive a bidding war he could raise significantly more.

That could tempt Boro - especially with Tuncay able to play on the left and young guns Adam Johnston waiting in the wings.

Jonathan Woodgate has had a slow start to the campaign and after missing pre-season has struggled to hit the imperious heights of last season when his weekly excellence made his £7m fee seem a bargain. But last term he had big goals to aim at: proving his fitness, resurrecting his reputation, reclaiming his England place and earning a move away from Madrid after Real decided he had no future there. He achieved all those but it seems this term he has yet to find a new challenge to motivate himself to reach his highest standards.

But without question there would be takers. There will be clubs and managers who believe he can soon be brought up to speed and playing back at his best. And they are probably right. Woody at his best is a class act and his fitness record over the past two seasons is better than John Terry. The demands of two games a week in the Big Four may be beyond him but the second ranked clubs would want him: you could see a bidding war developing between Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, Everton and Newcastle which could see Boro get their money back.

Again that could tempt Boro, especially as Huth and Pogatetz are fit again and Wheater has been a revelation. With those, Riggott and maybe Matthew Bates available again before the end of the window it could be a position Boro feel they have adequate cover in.

More importantly the pair could prove compelling bargaining chips in 'creative' swap deals. Woodgate for Newcastle's Ameobi and N'Zogbia is not beyond the realms of possibility and bot the valuations and wages would probably stack up. Nor is Downing for Defoe or Keane at Spurs too hard to imagine. I'm sure everyone on Planet Boro could come up with similar deals of equal weight, cost and probability. It may be the best way forward. It may be the only way forward as getting cash for them is no guarantee of being able to invest effectively and if other clubs won't release the players we need we will have money burning a hole in our pockets as we go down.

The only other viable exit is Johnson. He is wanted badly by Watford, runaway Championship leaders and with one eye on next year's Premiership pot already, where he made a dramatic impression on loan scoring and making goals in a confident side. With other clubs no doubt having taken note and ready to join the bidding the auction may nudge up to £4-5m... but would that be enough to fund the forward Boro have in mind? And would it send the wrong signals?

Selling to buy can be effective. Bryan Robson reshuffled the pack in 1997 as he cashed in Juninho to Atletico Madrid for £12m and Ravanelli to Marseilles for £5.5. That balanced the books and paid for the high-risk master-stroke that was Paul Merson, the creative force that ensured an instant return to the top flight, and left a bit in the pot to splash out later. That strategy was vindicated by the instant promotion.

But selling can also be the kiss of death. If you sell off your best players and bring in worse ones you are on a slippery slope to struggling with a lower skills base and with fewer assets you have less room for maneovere . In the 1981 post-Wolves spiral of decline Charlie Amer started selling off the brightest and the best in the Great Ayresome Sports Hall Bring and Buy Sale that was the source of the stench of death that enveloped the club in an advanced state self-imposed paralysis and just waiting for the liquidators.

Last week we were looking through the entrails of the club's history for parallels with the current situation. Those who see echoes of the ill-fated 1981-82 Bobby Murdoch reign will be terrified by the notion of Boro selling off their best home grown talent and their long term prospects just to plug gaps in a self-defeating bout of short-termism.

But desperate times demand desperate measures. Now, Lot One, what am I bid for this locally produced young England international? Shall we start with one Robbie Keane? An Ameobi sir.... one Ameobi at the back to the fat lad in the replica shirt... do I hear a Samaras?

Comments (134)

Werdermouth wrote...

I think that was a pretty good assessment you’ve made there AV. It’s not worth selling any of the £2 million rated players – especially if they need replacing.

But Downing or Woodgate would prove good bargaining chips with other clubs and at the moment they seem to be playing below their potential – plus we have other options in their positions.

I can’t see Spurs letting Keane go – though Defoe is probably more realistic.

Also it looks like Lita may be available in January if he could be given a decent contract from Boro.

Though I think the Cattemole / Ronaldinho swap deal is still in the balance.

**AV writes: What about if we throw in Lee Dong Gook as a BOGOF?

Posted by: Werdermouth  | December 4, 2007 10:36 AM

AllstarsWinners07 wrote...

I couldn't agree more that Stuart Downing is probably the best way to fund a move for a striker. Adam Johnson is looking as though he will develop into a much better player than downing very soon, so why not sell? It seems Southgate has just been accomodating Downing over the past few weeks anyway.

But if we were to get £10M for Downing, who would want to come to relegation threatened side? The Ronaldinho rumour was the funniest i've heard in a long time, we might have a chance of signing him when he's 40!

I'd seriously look at a bid for Marlon King, he's a cut-price Drogba which is what we need.

Posted by: AllstarsWinners07  | December 4, 2007 11:46 AM

Guy Bailey wrote...

How can a club getting £30m from Sky plead poverty?

That said, while I have a lot of time for Stewey D and think he has had a lot of unfair stick this season, a straight swap for Robbie Keane (Mido's partner of choice) would make a lot of sense.

it might be interesting to see how much we could get for Tuncay from the turks if Gate doesn't fancy him?

I would list Riggott, Schwarzer, Jones and DGL straight away. Harper from Ncstle would be a good, cheap replacement.

Posted by: Guy Bailey  | December 4, 2007 12:15 PM

SteMac wrote...

Once we go down the path of selling established England internationals and quality players to bring in stop gaps to get us through the season there is only one way the club are going - down.

Selling Downing will be giving in to the boo boys but it wont stop them, they will just start on someone else while selling off local lads will give other people a stick to beat the club with.

If the club know they need players they must either borrow the money to buy them or get the players on loan.

That is not Gate's job it is Lambies and he should be on the job now or he is not earning his money.

We need a MARCA BRANCA - and now!

Posted by: SteMac  | December 4, 2007 12:35 PM

lion_rampant wrote...

The last time we were in this predicament, we bought Dean Windass and brought in Benito Carbone on loan.

We dont need a Carbone this time, but I'd take two Windasses right now. We dont have to look for superstars, just players who will give defenders a run for their money

Posted by: lion_rampant  | December 4, 2007 12:39 PM

mark j wrote...

Downing is our top scorer and we have not even seen him at his best putting the ball on the big strikers head [ when we had one].

There is no point in selling him to buy a big striker as you are loosing one of the ways the new striker could score , jesus we make things difficult for ourselves.

Also , what a great message that sends out selling one of our best players who is also an England international.
Why sell Luke young who is now fit and playing well- he supplied the ball for Tuncay's goal and is one of the few who has scored once fully fit.We have no real replacement for him either!

I would not sell Arca , O'Neil , A Johnson or any player that is playing well that we have no cover for or we will end up with no team and Defoe on his own against the opposition's 11.

The only thing we have a lot of is central defenders and I would sell Riggot before Woodgate who needs resting now anyway.

Robbie Keane is the joint leading top scorer but I cant see him coming to Boro although I would love it if he did.
I have a bad feeling about all of this.

Reading were there for the taking and we only made 2 substitutions as there was not anyone with any class left- Steele, okay we need a spare keeper but Hutchinson is not up to it yet.

If Mendi came at the same time as Tuncay for Boat or Cattermole we could have found the attacking edge that is missing to unlock the defence!

Gate seems to be hiding Mendi now as word got out of his performances in the reserves. Hell, you could play him as he has something to offer and sell him in Jan once he has been shop windowed.

This is not madness as we have no options and the end of jan is too late to try and scrape whatever striker other clubs feel is surplus to requirement.

Southgate is not using the squad to its strengths, Dong Gook instead of Tuncay is proof enough....

I believe a fit Mendi is as good as Tugay KerimoÄŸlu [who is 4 years older than Mendi] they both have no pace but make space and use class passing to open up defences.

By the way Tugay KerimoÄŸlu scored Blackburn's third goal against Newcastle with an experienced cool finish.
But as Southgate is always right and wont change his mind I must be wrong....

Posted by: mark j  | December 4, 2007 12:49 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

mark j - regarding Mendi

I don't think Mendi will get a game as the club are trying to encourage him to leave in January transfer window so that they can save on his wages.

However, once the window is closed he'll probably get a game - do well and then become our best central midfielder before leaving on a free to a newly promoted club in the summer.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | December 4, 2007 1:10 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Reading the various posts, articles by Uncle Eric, gates statements and the words of AV it leads me to think there is a messiness about the situation.

The Dong Goal Less/Tuncay debate shows a disturbing lack of clarity in thinking, of a failure to grasp basic fundamentals. When TB kindly damned me with faint praise for seeing the bleeding obvious as a fan which was not evident to our coaching staff it sets the alarm bells ringing.

The philosphy sold to us was to play with pace and movement, to score score goals from all over the pitch. You may need someone with physique to hold the ball up, DGL has no attributes for that role and never will whilst I have an orifice at the nether end of my body. Nor is he suited to playing a floating role.

You fear that the same malaise has set into the rest of the thinking at the club. Bless his cotton socks, Gate states he knows what we need to do and who he needs to do it. There is scant evidence and he isnt even getting the best out of what we have injuries or no injuries.

The coming game against the gunners will tell us a lot. Wenger is a great believer in teams playing 442 and if they dont do so and attack with gusto they are committing a crime against football.

Translating this into English is as follows. Arseole Whinger plays 451, he wants you to play a midfield four so his exceptional players can outnumber you and pass you to death, midfield players running at your defenders with their sublime skills.

The solution is to match them in numbers and make sure you press and make their lives uncomfortable. Nine times out of ten they will still batter you, most of the rest of the time they will still win. But every now and then...

A test for Gate, Aliadiere up front, Tuncay floating in a five man midfield linking across the pitch, joining up with Aliadiere, giving movement to keep Arsenal busy.

How we get on will be a measure of progress to date, does Gate and his men know where we are going, has the cunning plan for January been drawn up Alexander the Great or Baldrick.

At the moment there is the appearance of damage limitation. Living in the east midlands it smells of Derby, Leicester, Coventry, Forest

Posted by: Ian Gill  | December 4, 2007 1:45 PM

Si wrote...

lion_rampant:

We actually took Carbone on loan the year after we bought Windass. But in saying they helped us, you're right. While they didn't score much (5 goals between them, 4 for Windass) they made valuable contributions for the team.

This is what we're missing from most players - excepting Gary O'Neil, Arca, Mido (when he can be bothered), Aliadiere, Wheater (now beginning to look a little out of his depth), LDG (completely out of his depth), Catts (error prone, not always reliable), Young, Pogi and Tuncay. And possibly Adam Johnson.

Vic:

Good article, as usual. Not one I entirely agree with, but you have a point.

It may be sad to conclude that to prosper, we might have to break up a team that looks so good on paper, but I also think it's about time to stop saying that this team is "about" to come good.

We do not have the players to compensate when one of our key men is struggling or going through a blank spell. Like Tevez is at Man Utd - he missed four clear chances in the opening ten minutes last night. But they've got Ronaldo to compensate for this...

Actually, come to think of it, we had Arca. But the Sunderland players just had to hack him off the pitch... (No bitterness there. Honest.)

My team for the next game: (1-4-1-4-1)

Turnbull - Young, Woody, Huth, Pogatetz - Boat - O'Neil, Arca, Rocky, Stewie - Tuncay. Subs: Steele, Wheater, Johnson, Catts, Aliadiere.

That's about as good as we're going to get...

Posted by: Si  | December 4, 2007 1:55 PM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Nice piece Vic, but what a sad indictment, what a position to find ourselves in after riding the rollercoaster in Europe only a season and half ago.

No-one can argue with what you have put together but none of it explains to me and probably many others just where did it all go wrong.

I am on the edge of devastation at the moment because I recall the hurt and the absolute agony of 1997 so clearly, when relegation, to use Gibbo's words "put this club back 10 years".

At the moment I believe we are in a worse position than back then, when we could at least score goals even if we couldn't defend, whilst currently we can do neither. In the end it was the 3 points deducted that actually proved to be the nail in the coffin.

Although I would grudgingly agree that probably Downing and one or more of our centre backs could bring in much needed short terms financial release, the January window is not the time to be bringing in yet more players who will take the rest of the season to settle.

I live in hope that Southgate and the players can turn it around. Surely we cannot stoop any lower in terms of the crop of players we have, we are scraping the barrel now.

The best we can hope for is a couple of strikers in on loan or take on an out of contract player, if there are any.

Talk of Defoe, Keane, even Lita (who Steve Coppell has warned he better start scoring by the way) are folly, none of them would come to Boro.

I firmly believe that we are stuck with the squad we have come hell or high water, and we will stand or fall on what they achieve over the next 6 months.

But to repeat my question, why are we in this mess? I can only think that there is some outside business reason that is twisting Gibson's arm, and he is being forced to tighten the purse strings. The fact that we have a £13M debt is not new for us, we've been there before, and with a Sky windfall about to drop of upwards of £30M it's not difficult for the man in the street to make a quick take-away sum and ask "well where's the other £17M going then?".

There is something seriously wrong at MFC, something we are obviously not in tune with, and its about time someone told us what it is.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | December 4, 2007 2:01 PM

Nick Hill wrote...

Keane i really doubt coming here, since he is playing most games at spurs and is a big player for them, i doubt he would even want to come to us as if he would be up for sale then nearly everyone would be in for him.

Defoe is a more probable choice but players like that might reject a straight out transfer(cant accept he will never be a regular at spurs) so maybe a loan deal for 6 months might suit everyone, defoe can get regular football whilst still holding that thought that he can be in the spurs first 11 next season.

Posted by: Nick Hill  | December 4, 2007 2:26 PM

Dek wrote...

Hi Anthony.
Every successful side is built around a top class keeper and a solid defence. Oh God,we've had it then!

Is it in Schwarzers contract that if he's fit he plays? Why else can he be poor yet still picked? He's just going through the motions without the motion. Lets plan for next season without him, so keep Turnbull in or get another keeper.

Posted by: Dek  | December 4, 2007 2:38 PM

Orange Dave wrote...

Whilst I'd rather keep most of them, and just shift DGL, Mendi, and Riggott off the wage bill, I think if we have to, and only if we have to, Downing is the obvious £10m choice, with big money and proven successors, and him expressing a desire to leave earlier in the season.

I see Woody as Gibson's golden boy at the moment, despite his lack of form and apparent tension between him and Southgate, I think trying to sell him may put Southgate out of favour with Gibbo at a time when he needs the chairmans backing more than ever. Plus a motivated Woody is a great player and the only 'thinking' centre back we have, and needed to guide the rest of the battlers.

I just hope any money is put to good use, I don't see Ameobi or NZogbia as the solution, Keane wouldn't come here a few years ago when his best mate was begging him, so not much chance now, and unproven championship strikers could be a big £6m waste of money when up against premiership defences. Maybe Samaras for £3m but no more.

As for DGL, if we can't find a taker, maybe using him as a model in the window of the MFC store in Korea might be the best use for him - it would keep him off the pitch here, and it's the only shop window we might find a buyer looking in!

Posted by: Orange Dave  | December 4, 2007 2:42 PM

Nigel wrote...

Clearly Woodie and Downing are our prize assets, not only are they class acts, England internationals etc. but they are 'Boro boys'.

I'd hate to see either of them leave but surely to sell the best left winger in the country and one of the top four English centre backs would be madness.

Neither is in top form but as Ian Botham famously said 'form is temporary, class is permanent'

Also were we to raise £7-8m which striker of that value worth his salt is likely to join a team threatened by relegation?

If we need to sell then prehaps it could be Riggot &/or Cattermole , we could maybe raise £3m which may buy us a striker who is prepared to take a punt on a team who may stay in the prem. Forget about Robbie Kean he won't be interested.

It would also be a nightmare if we sold Jinky, a player who may be worth three times as much in a couple of seasons.

I can't see too much activity in January simply because the class of striker we need won't want to come, unless GS can pull a rabbit out of the bag with a loan signing with an option to buy if we survive. Personally I think we need to keep all of our players that are worth anything.

Gibbo needs to take a calculated risk and borrow £4m of the SKY money due in the Summer. If we get relegated then he can sell to re-coup the money. He once said there was nothing wrong in taking a risk as long as the risk is managed. Now is the time to take the risk..........

Posted by: Nigel  | December 4, 2007 3:18 PM

jc wrote...

Nice to read Southgate admitting "I have some idea of what I have got" - some idea, Gareth, but clearly not much. Forgot you had Tuncay on Saturday, didn't you?

I would back the possibility of selling one of Downing or Woodgate to bring in a season-saving striker, except that I have absolutely no faith left in GS's competence in choosing the right man, nor his ability to bring him in. Frankly, it would be a massive gamble with the odds stacked heavily against us.

This drought isn't likely to be solved by a human sacrifice on the MFC Ziggurat Of Doom. Let's look at better irrigation (sort the infrastructure) and planting the right crops in the right fields to get us through.

Posted by: jc  | December 4, 2007 3:19 PM

jiffy wrote...

Boro fans never cease to amaze me.

They always think that ANY player would give anything for the chance of a move to Middlesbrough. History has proven otherwise. The club has always had trouble persuading players to come. Perceptions of the club as a dead-end for most careers will likely never change.

Very few Premiership players - whether regular first teamers or not - when looking at us would see anything but relegation in prospect. Why do you think most of our signings every year are from clubs that have just been relegated?

Keane or Defoe????? Dream on! London players rarely see the need to move out of the capital. Keane is flavour of the month with his new boss who doesnt seem to be infected with that madness referred to as "rotation" which is particularly destructive to striker's form. Defoe would rather go to Fulham or back to West Ham or even drop down to the likes of Palace or Watford than move up here.

Downing's light has faded and I doubt anyone would give more than 3m for him now. Watford will bid for Johnson - their promotion push has slumped alarmingly without him - and no way can they pay more than £2-3m.

Woodgate is the only feasible source of revenue and that on past reputation alone - currently he is down to Titus Bramble performance standard. It would take a lunatic bid like the one Everton made for Yakubu for the club to get their money back on him now.

Posted by: jiffy  | December 4, 2007 3:41 PM

nigel (mumbai) wrote...

ok - so we're now debating the fire sale...and we need to keep in mind who we might need in the Championship...

We only have one area of surplus - central defenders. Of these we can probably afford to lose two. Pogatetz would be important if we get relegated; Huth needs to prove his fitness and form before he can become a saleable asset; Wheater is local and will only get better - if we go down, again we'll need him. That leaves Woodgate and Riggott and with a fair wind they could net us £10m in total.

In addition there is either Downing or Johnson. If we have to sell one (and I'd prefer to keep both) then it has to be Downing, if only because Johnson will get better and will stay and will be effective in the Championship.

I would be reluctant to sell Tuncay as I feel we wouldn't get full value and he is one player - when we learn how to use him properly - who can help to keep us in the Premier League. Arca is too important to sell. Cattermole, like Wheater is the future, and we'll need him if we go down.

When it comes to buying players there aren't many who leap out as realistic prospects in our present circumstances: they have to agree to come, they have to have the ability to make an impact, and ideally they have to stay with us if we go down. In addition they have to be able to take us forward next season if we stay up...

What really disturbs me is that we're all thinking and talking like this - if we had Capello, Hiddink or Lippi in charge, or some other experienced coach, would we still be looking at the same bleak scenario - my point is (and I know it's pointless repeating this over and over again) that we have the players to make a decent team, all we lack is a coach in charge who can pull them together and get them to perform as a cohesive, motivated and tactically astute unit...

Posted by: nigel (mumbai)  | December 4, 2007 3:42 PM

Chris Gibson... a realist wrote...

I've had a little think regarding realistic targets for January, (some of whom would be very much short term ventures, possibly available on loan).

The list consists of British players that we should have a decent chance of bagging. They may not be the world stars we once had in our sights but could possibly do a job.


Richard Wright
Kevin Nolan
Chris Eagles
Darren Fletcher
Jon Walters (Ipswich)
Brian Howard (Barnsley)
Matt Taylor
Sean Davis
Luke Moore
Leroy Lita
James Beattie
Rob Hulse
Shola Ameobi
Darius Vassell
Bobby Zamora
Robert Earnshaw

I admit none of them set pulses racing but there are a few options here that are definitely better than what we have.

I also agree that we are in a position where we have a good number of central defenders. Matthew Bates is back in training so this gives us even more options. Riggott's time could be up. He's done ok, time to go for about 1.5 million. LDG.... well let's pay someone to take him off our hands.

Mcmahon, Bates, Kennedy, Walker, Hutchison, Goulon, Hines, Craddock and that potential star - Porritt....Most of these have been around for a while. I believe it's sink or swim time for them now. There is only one way to see if they are good enough. Give them a game or two. We seem to have so many potential stars that just don't kick on. Surely they would be more effective than LDG.

Rochembach is too inconsistent and we just simply haven't got the best out of him.

Derby are dead and buried. The mackems, us, Wigan, Birmingham, Fulham, Reading and Bolton are all in the mix. Surely Spurs will climb.

For me the games against these teams are the ones the matter plus the odd miracle and at the very least two new faces.

Those things combined with luck and a lack of injuries might just keep us up and we will need to get ready for another scrap next year.

That is where Boro are at and realistically where we belong. That's not being unambitous, just taking stock of the natural order of clubs in this country.

A bit of unity among the fans, much improved performances, a bit more consultation and insight from the club and we wouldn't really be a million miles away from contentment, not Eindhoven, Cardiff or Samba ecstacy but contentment.

ps a cup run would be lovely.


Posted by: Chris Gibson... a realist  | December 4, 2007 6:06 PM

d .richardson wrote...

Gods sake ,will you all have a word with yourselves. We are here in this position because of inept management at the club CHAIRMEN downwards.

january? lol. Gibson needs a top class manager in now ,but when did that last happen? Sorry people buts its the championship for us without doubt....and if gibson has not got the clout any more he should sell up!

Posted by: d .richardson  | December 4, 2007 7:49 PM

chris wrote...

This is all quite depressing.....it was only 18 months or so ago that we were being promised a 'Top Drawer' manager and spectacular signings after the UEFA cup final.

I think everybody expected us to build and become a force but we have gone backwards not even stagnated!

The money appeared to be available then but not now why? I know we bought Huth , Woodgate and Yakubu but the latter has left at a profit the team wage bill has gone down and the money has gone

Arca was buttons to buy and the other couple of bought players were below 5 million probably balanced by the sales we have made...or wages offloaded.

So this begs the question was Gibson's 'spectacular' statement just rubbish to start with? He has talked recently about the German connection that was in place before Southgate's appointment but changed his mind, was this due to finances? Makes me wonder.

I said at the time Southgate is a nice bloke but not a premiership manager...that is the root of the problem and until that changes nothing will improve....sad but true.

Posted by: chris  | December 4, 2007 8:28 PM

dave wrote...

The crisis at the club seems to be getting deeper and deeper. Has gibson lost confidence in southgate spending money? Has southgate has plenty to spend already?

Is MFC being upfront with the fans, are they hiding more than they care to let on? Are the fans suffering from lack of information because only lamb,southgate and gibson know what is going on and no leaks ever come out?

I think this situation as been on the horizon for a couple of seasons as our cup form has managed to distract away from our poor league form

We have to start winning home games, 12 games left and 3 of them are against the top 4. that leaves 9 left - of which we need to win 6 and draw 3 as a minimum.

Then we have away games at arsenal, chelsea, liverpool, newcastle, sunderland... overall we have 23 games . possibly 6 impossible to win. so that leaves 17 games to get another 25 points to be safe.

thats about 6 home wins, 2 away wins 3 home draws and 3 away draws. is that possible? we just cant afford to lose to teams around us.

Posted by: dave  | December 4, 2007 9:45 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Andy and Never Happy

Some are golden others are crystal! Beckham has one set, I have the other!

Posted by: Ian Gill  | December 4, 2007 10:14 PM

Lurking Teesside Based Mag type wrote...

Howay Vic man "Woodgate for Newcastle's Ameobi and N'Zogbia is not beyond the realms of possibility"

A deal with Ameobi is very much a possibility but you've got no chance of landing Zoggy. Babayaro and/or Ramage maybe but not young Charlie.

Posted by: Lurking Teesside Based Mag type  | December 4, 2007 10:15 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

Now Gate is complaining about our scouting network. I seem to recall only a short time ago being told that we had one of the best scouting networks in Europe.

It looks like Gate has finally realised its time to cut the crap and start telling the truth, just hope the senior MFC Execs take a note out of his book.

Posted by: Redcar Red  | December 4, 2007 10:35 PM

Si wrote...

Great article here by Jeff Winter on ComeonBoro:

http://www.comeonboro.com/columns/110616.php

Of course, it's true. We have been thinking some of the things he says we think - Southgate clueless, Gibson out (although I personally wouldn't quite go that far), Wheater and Huth upfront, etc, etc.

But when we're so desperate for GOALS, let alone success, can you blame us? Especially when Eindhoven was only a year and a half ago.

Posted by: Si  | December 4, 2007 11:04 PM

gt wrote...

AV

I am glad your not my real estate guy, Id be bust in no time. Where do you get these prices from? £1m cattermole, £1.5m Riggott, £2m Pogi, £2.5m Arca... dont quit your day job and open a business please.

Try £6m, £3.75m, £5m and £6.5m. Rmember Darren Bent £16m and others. It's all relative.

By the way I dont know if we will change managers but theres a guy at swansea who is heading for the top, I think is name is robert martinez. Ive seen them play a couple of times and they are a very attractive side to watch, considering the division there in, nice free flowing one touch stuff,remember him

**AV writes: £6m for Catt??!! And you think I'm off the mark?

Posted by: gt  | December 4, 2007 11:10 PM

tonyblack wrote...

d .richardson wrote...

Gods sake ,will you all have a word with yourselves. We are here in this position because of inept management at the club CHAIRMEN downwards.

Hey D.

where the hell were you when I needed you at the start of the season when everyone in here wanted to burn me at the stake for expressing this view ! (lol)

I'm of the opinon that we shouldn't sell anyone.

My choice would be to get people in on a free that can do a job until the rest of the season when we should take stock.

People may laugh, but Jimmy Floyd, Fowler and the like. Proven goalscorers who'd dearly love to pit their wits against the big boys one more time and prove that they've still got it.

They'd give their all and at the very least would get the crowd going. I know that Jimmy is a lazy so and so but you cannot deny that he can score goals and has the muscle we need up front.

I'm sure that there are a few other seasoned pro's available on free transfers who could also plug the gap in the midfield or in defence as well.

I'd even bring back Xavier for a few months whilst the US are on a break.

I know that it isn't a long term solution but in the current climate of skintsville where survival is our only aim, I really don't see we have a choice.

By the way, wasn't this supposed to be a phase of rebuilding?

To all those who ever doubted me (!), you must know have to face the fact that the good ship Boro is at best just floating along in the waves, and at worst about to sink, and that sooner or later that the cure will only be a new management team, and a host of new faces with new ideas and fresh motivation, and very probably a new chairman.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | December 4, 2007 11:32 PM

dave wrote...

Chris, I didn't expect us to be a force after the uefa cup but I was exepcting us to be up there in the mid table comfort zone as a minimum.

Gareths downfall has been unable to sign decent strikers who can stay fit. We hung around for viduka too long, waited on alan smith when he didnt want to sign then sold the yakubu a week after southgate stated he was happy and goign nowhere.

We are struggling to replace yakubu and viduka. both players contributions was the main reason why we stayed up last season. Downing is now losing confidence and motivation because there are no decent strikers to get on the end of his crosses.

Now we know why everton were happy to pay £11m for yakubu as decent goalscorers are hard to find. Now we are suffering and its effecting the whole team.

And why is Dong Gook Lee still anywhere near the forst team?

Posted by: dave  | December 5, 2007 12:11 AM

dave wrote...

You are having a laugh at £6m for cattermole.

Arca is by far our best midfielder now and he only cost jsut over £2m. so we would do well to get £3m for him. Probably go back to sunderland. Cattermole would go for £2m max. hardworking midfielders are plenty its the creative ones or goal scoring midfielders that go for big money

Posted by: dave  | December 5, 2007 12:14 AM

Richard wrote...

Oh, woes ‘r us!

Metaphorically, I’m already on Prozac. In my mind’s eye, I haven’t renewed my season ticket because even if we survive the drop this year, I get the feeling that it’s almost an inevitable that we’ll be in the Championship fairly soon.

It’s in my recurring paranoia that, without the absolutely huge injection of money that would be essential to bribe top talent to come here to live for a few years of their lives to “earn� enough not to have to worry about what happens to them for the remainder of their existence on the planet, we are in footballing equivalent of Teesside Hospice – the bottom 3 - and waiting for the inevitable.

Why? Because the fundamentals of Middlesbrough Football Club aren’t right for the modern-day Premier League, or what it is becoming.

We have managed to “be creative� enough in the past by bringing in a few nuggets of genuine talent to supplement an otherwise “ordinary� squad of players. And we have been quite successful at it over the last 10 years or so, it has to be said.

However, in the past, we could rely on the residual charisma of “Captain Fantastic� Bryan Robson and the growing reputation (back then) and national squad links of Steve McClaren to attract a few of the flair players albeit some of whom were in the twilight of their careers.

But I don’t think the same strategy will cut it in the changing world of the new Premier League. And not with Gareth Southgate as the talisman - great club captain, footballing servant and nice guy though he certainly is!

The game has evolved and moved faster than provincial clubs can re-arrange their financial base or backing. Those clubs which are attractive to external investors are a different kettle of fish and it’s they who will survive the cut – in whatever form it takes - when it comes. Because they have the city fan base and the financial backing to attract the best and the best of the rest.

My take on all of this is that our ailment is deeper-rooted than can be addressed by taking the analgesic of superficial transfers or some minor cosmetic surgery in the squad, such as some of the dealing schemes proposed in this blog and subsequent posts.

I wouldn’t presume to add to them, because they’re not curative. They are managing the pain, treating the symptoms and making it temporarily easier to live with. And, as others have suggested, some of them would also hasten the demise!

I fear our condition is rooted in the “loadsamoney� mentality that is currently coursing through the arterial Premier League and the inability of the Middlesbrough “brand� to attract enough of it, even supposing Steve Gibson felt inclined to release control to an even bigger “Sugar Daddy�.

In the absence of any publicly-announced strategic intent by MFC concerning the current management’s take on the matter of the clubs future, it is inevitable that speculation and gossip will result.

I play with the following scenario in my head (thus the metaphorically administrations of prescriptive Prozac!) although I have no real evidence or knowledge to substantiate the scenario. But, as I talk to myself, I find I repeatedly pose the questions –

Is it possible that Boro’s directional juxtaposition is being hastened because Steve Gibson may be building his business empire, investing in infrastructure away from the club? Could he be playing a dangerous balancing game to try to remain in the Premier League on the cheap (relatively and actually, it’s probably all “we� can afford) to enable 10’s of millions of funds to be channelled into the infrastructural elements of his bigger scheme - the development of golf course, leisure complex, hotel etc, that was being planned/ progressed?

If so, it's a big gamble with the future of MFC. And if it is so, the schizophrenic war has been decided and Steve Gibson, businessman, has triumphed over Steve Gibson, MFC benefactor.

For the town, maybe that’s the right move in the longer term.

But from where most of us are sitting, it doesn’t feel like it!!

If he did pull something like that off, and Boro stayed in the Premiership, he wins. We win. If Boro gets relegated, it sets him back a few years, but he, Steve Gibson, businessman, will survive and flourish over time. Whether Boro does, as part of a Premier League, will be doubtful. In which case, we lose, but we’ll survive too!

Oh, we'll remain as a mid-sized football club. But we won't eat at the top table. We don't have the fundamentals in our favour.

Mr Gibson probably realises this - he's been around the FA corridors of power long enough, for goodness sake. He surely can’t be blind to the now rapid direction that the Premier League is going/ has gone(!)

So the Sky-and-Setanta-backed, new-look elite will soar off into the distance and we'll have a bit of a fancy-dan leisure complex at the extremities of our district to be frequented by.............erm............Darlington supporters and overnighters off the A1?

A far cry from the plane-loads of Barca, Inter and Bayern fans regularly beating a path via Durham Tees Valley International Airport to the door of Steve’s up-market B&B?

Oh well Steve, I hope you do know what you're doing. But from where I and many others on Teesside sit, you're not currently ingratiating yourself any more to the population of your historical heartland!

One of us? Mmmmm! Maybe Mr Gibson’s moved on too!

Posted by: Richard  | December 5, 2007 12:51 AM

Ian Oliver wrote...

Well here we are again the fans, the people that care, the people that pay week-in week-out, desperately kicking around options in a situation of impending relegation - foisted upon us YET AGAIN!!

By an arrogant Chairman so out-of-touch with the demands and realities of running a Premiership football club. He is no better than those of the Ridsdale/ Bates/ Ellis/Sugar ilk who have forced their business egos into the football arena with disastrous consequences.

After the Carling Cup win he was carried around, shoulder high, at the Millennium Stadium and proclaiming that he was going to take this club to another level. This Emperor wasn't wearing any clothes and no one paid any attention to the voices pointing this out.

Despite the flirtation with the UEFA Cup, the writing was clearly on the wall as to McClaren's tactical ineptitude and poor transfer dealings. That game against Villa clearly showed the direction in which we were heading.

We had a get-out-of-jail-free card from Barwick and the FA when they took McClaren but, once again, the Emperor promised a top quality replacement "new suit" and what did we get? The same old naked body, only this time showing real wear.

Let's stop 're-arranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic' and focus upon the people who have got us in this position. First, and for the sake of us all, the immediate priority has to be the manager. Southgate has to go.

Posted by: Ian Oliver  | December 5, 2007 2:38 AM

gt wrote...

av
I have to reply on the figure i gave for Cats. Man u and other clubs are paying close to £20m for young players - Nani, Anderson - put them in boros team what would you get? Very little. Put a young Cats in a Man U team with their coaching and players to learn from, what could you get?

I think he has more to offer and more skill than some people give him credit for. I hope we dont sell ourselves short and Riggs is stil young and more consistant than some defenders in prem teams,come to think of it lets keep them

Posted by: gt  | December 5, 2007 3:00 AM

stockton red wrote...

Just a thought.If money is tight has it ever dawned on anybody that if we sack GS CC and Crosby then have to replace them with another manager and backroom staff for whom we would have to pay compo then this could drain what little money we have for players down to zero

This process could cost £5 million plus-the cost of the new forward we definitely need.

Oh and by the way to those saying what about the money we will be receiving from Sky - gate receipts are around £11m - the wage bill is over £30 mill. This summer we had a net spend of around £10m on players. It is the TV money that is paying the bills and wages for Boro and most other smaller Prem clubs.

Posted by: stockton red  | December 5, 2007 9:48 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Whats the point of buying or selling players when the manager and coaching staff are clueless?

The only way we can stay up is to sack the coaching staff and replace them with some staff who have a clue.

How come the only person who saw any good in LDG on saturday was GS? Is he right and all the Boro fans who were at reading wrong?

Keep the team, sack the manager

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 5, 2007 9:56 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I have just read the following article

Aston Villa striker Darius Vassell is the No.1 target of Middlesbrough boss Gareth Southgate.

Boro have struggled to score this season, with new signings Mido, Jeremie Aliadiere and Dong Gook-Lee lacking goals.

And Southgate sees his former Villa Park team-mate Vassell - valued at around £1million - as the answer to his problems.

He faces competition from Derby and Bolton.

Has it really come to this?

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 5, 2007 10:14 AM

Score Draw wrote...

Now that we have a new goalie our results will improve add to that the return of Arca and Pogatetz and there is more than a little hope.

The biggest risk is Downing leaving in January. I suspect he's had enough of the 'half-cut', bitter, whingeing, 'fans' who regularly question his committment and ability.

He probably feels he'd be more appreciated elsewhere and he's right ! He is and has always been a great Boro player. Good luck to him I just hope he waits until the end of the season.

The depressing thing about being a Boro fan is we seem to have more than our fair share of 'idiots'. I can't think of another club whose fans would succeed in 'driving out' someone of the calibre of Stewart Downing.

Posted by: Score Draw  | December 5, 2007 10:20 AM

robin mitton wrote...

Dear AV,

I believe it should be obvious to most that if we had minds like TONY BLACK and RICHARD'S helping to run the show we would not be in the diabolical mess we are in.

It's a bit like being the tragic crew in that Nimrod that went down...we've all set off on a 'routine' journey only to discover that our own side has sabotaged
our 'vehicle' through underfunding, ignorance and blind incompetence.

We'll survive the impending crash although the slow motion aspect to it all will prove to be somewhat draining.

I wonder if it is time to possibly start talking about trying to create an alternative management team supported by a kind of high level 'co-operative' of the great, the good - and even more poignantly - those wealthy enough to fund such an initiative?

It may take a couple of years for this to come to fruition but I would like to think the major shareholder himself might now be prepared to consider this as a possible solution/ way forward.

A mass culling of management is needed now to change the way the club operates. In terms of fan support/PR etc the club is suffering a massive loss in equity; alienating income providers and generators is not a sound commercial tactic.

Oh sorry I forgot about the TV money! - of course 'we' don't really need the fans as much...is it any wonder morale at the club is as low as it is?

And God knows how 'they' could have appointed such a professional lightweight as Marketing Manager? Don't expect volume growth from this lot for a LONG time.

Hahahaha it's so pathetic I actually feel sorry for these dimwits who are completely out of their depth. Remember their first great wheeze of this season was to shut Bernie and Ali up for a season or longer: "You're either with us or against us!" Sweet Jesus what a crew = the Derby and Joan club of Premiership thinking!

Robin Mitton
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS

Posted by: robin mitton  | December 5, 2007 11:15 AM

spence wrote...

£6m for Cattermole? That's made my day. I like a good laugh. He would be a world beater at Man U with Nani and Anderson? Oh stop it, my sides are splitting.

Cattermole charges back and forward after the ball like a demented terrier while the Nani's and Anderson's laugh as they pass it back and forth barely suppressing guffaws.

He charges off and either the ball or a player goes through the gap he has vacated. He can't trap and ball. His passes can screw wildly anywhere. The best you can say is that what he does he does for the full 90 minutes.

Saying £6m for Cattermole is as funny as when people used to say he was "the new Stevie G" or would captain England. He could be the new Jamie Pollock (no bad thing) if he is lucky. If he doesn't get his head together fast he could be the new Mark Summerbell.

Posted by: spence  | December 5, 2007 11:48 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

AV, I'm a bit worried to read in today's Gazette that Arca is going to have a pain killing injection in his knee to help him get over a niggle in time to play this weekend.

OK I'm no doctor, but to me pain is usually the body's way of letting the brain know about an injury that needs resting.

Do the medical team at Boro believe that they've found a way to fool the brain into thinking that a player is not injured?

I think it's a no-brainer - only a fool would risk playing Arca against Arsenal if he's not fully recovered.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | December 5, 2007 11:58 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

Gate is not alone, below is an extract pasted from the Northern Echo, I suppose it could be called a quote of two halves.

'It could be that the fragile Lee, who had turned in one of his best performances since arriving in January before going off with cramp, has had his final chance under Southgate as the transfer window approaches.'

So the question for Never happy is which part of this is true? Two chances, cant be fairer than that.

There again it might all be true and if so it just shows how shocking the rest of his performances have been.

No, I dont wear that, I have to give him full credit for the levels he reached on Saturday, to do otherwise would be mean of me.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | December 5, 2007 12:15 PM

Orange Dave wrote...

Well, It looks like we've missed out on Ronaldinho! I must say I'm suprised and shocked that he would choose Chelsea over a glamour club like Boro.

Well if he chooses to drink the seven times recycled swamp slime that passes for water in London's taps rather than the crisp clear Kielder water Teesside gets, then that's up to him. (although I think he may be able to afford the bottled stuff.)

If Vidukas wages were to be half the ground receipts, how much would Ronny's have been? The stupidity of the story doesn't bear thinking about.

If Gareth's looking for a quick solution to finding scouting staff, can't we just pay someone to follow round Man City's scouts?

Posted by: Orange Dave  | December 5, 2007 12:22 PM

Score Draw wrote...

I know where that John Darwin chap's been over the last 12 months he's been playing ...... at the Boro

Posted by: Score Draw  | December 5, 2007 12:42 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - I agree with Werdermouth, why play Arca in a game we are odds on to lose, if another week's rest will have him fit to face Derby?

This has echoes of the Mido injury, working hard will be back soon, oops he should have been resting he is out for months. Dr Nick and the Hurworth witch doctors are ready to strike again.

I have just re-read my earlier post, Vassell plays (gets paid by) for Man City not Villa (that will teach me to cut and paste without reading it properly).

As I was not corrected I think it shows that others might think that Vassell will not be our saviour.

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 5, 2007 12:43 PM

Score Draw wrote...

Complete memory loss brought on by serious stress and trauma - that's why we are losing supporters!

I once had a religious experience watching the Boro, I was speaking in tongues and banging my head with a rock.

That Aussie was to blame

Posted by: Score Draw  | December 5, 2007 12:48 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Ian - if it was one of LDGs best games then it only confirms that he is rubbish.

Orange Dave - good idea to follow Man Citys scouting staff, even better to follow Arsenals - but you still need some money to buy the players.

Schwarzer training with a cast on and may even be considered for the Arsenal game, I bet that has made Score Draws day.

As I posted in the last blog, I think 3 - 5 - 2 may be the way to go againt the Gooners.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 5, 2007 1:01 PM

alf wrote...

Looks like Southgate could risk arca in the Arsenal game. Why bother? We will get beat anyway. Sve him for derby away, that's far more important. It has got Mido written all over it and could make the injury worse

Posted by: alf  | December 5, 2007 1:07 PM

john rogers wrote...

If memory serves me right Mr Lamb was not concerned about the lack of season ticket sales in August. He said that the attractive football from Boro would soon have the fans coming back. Would he like to alter his position now?

Earlier this year Gareth Southgate said he had a great bunch of players and couldn't ask more from them. And see where this clap trap has led the Boro.

Even Brian Clough had to have exoerience in a lower division before he became a first class manager. It's not Southgates fault but his experience in a lower division will more than likely come next season when Boro are relegated .

P.S. Any chance of getting VENABLES back?

Posted by: john rogers  | December 5, 2007 2:02 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

Score Draw

The similarities between John Darwin and Boro are that not only can we not remember where we've been but we're also up the creek without a paddle - and we don't even have a Kanu...

Posted by: Werdermouth  | December 5, 2007 2:08 PM

robin mitton wrote...

Werdermouth,

And come the post match comments we'll be reading stuff like 'Noah is Arca as Boro midfield is flooded!'

robin le Parisian

Posted by: robin mitton  | December 5, 2007 2:35 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - do you know if Schwarzer has a clause in his contract that says he has to play if he is fit?

Surely if Turnbull does well, Schwarzer will not regain his place. After all he is one of the possible saleable assets come January, as he will be off at the end of the season when his contract runs out.

How about Woodgate to the Skunks in a swop deal for Harper and some cash.

**AV writes: Despite the long standing rumours I find it inconceivable that he has such a clause. The truth is that, apart from a brief spell when Crossley was here, he has had very little competition for his place.

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 5, 2007 3:08 PM

dave wrote...

People have short memories on Schwarzer, no such thing as the clause in his contract. just that he is the best keeper we have had in 11 years and probably the bet ever keeper we have had. How many keepers play consistently well at the top level for over 11 years?

I'm surprised we managed to keep hold of him for 11 years. Next season it will be the turn of keeper who will be difficult to replace and southgate will make a mess of.

Posted by: dave  | December 5, 2007 3:25 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - you are probably correct, although Crossley kept a string of clean sheets and was still dropped when MS was fit.

If the Zenden and Viduka episodes are anything to go by, MS will not be offered a new deal and so should if possible be sold in January.

However I can see him sitting out his contract (hopefully at home) as it seems his wages have been the stalling point when he was going to leave for Portsmouth.

MS has been an OK keeper for Boro, put if this seasom is anything to go by he is now well past his best.

Both Turnbull and Jones are Championship standard keepers, and if GS is to stick to his policy of signing young players, then he may as well select Turnbull as it will give him good practice for next season.

Why haven't Boro offered Wheater (contract runs out next summer)a new long term deal yet?

Next seasons Championship team for Boro will be:
Turnbull
MacMahon
Wheater
Pogatetz
Taylor
Porritt
O'Neill
Arca
Johnson
Craddock
Aliadiere

£13M of the £30 sky money to plug the losses at the club.

Downing £7m, Tuncay £4m, Woodgate £4m will all be on their way out of the club after relegation.

Boro would have £30m+ to spend on players, but are more likely to say that the money is needed to pay for the falling crowds and players wages.

It could be far cheaper for SG to bite the bullet, sack GS and his coaching staff and get someone else in ASAP.

The squad is good enough to at least finish 4th bottom of the PL, it just needs someone to get them organised and playing.

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 5, 2007 4:20 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

John Darwin is like our defence, no idea of positioning, no marking and all at sea.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | December 5, 2007 4:52 PM

Score Draw wrote...

I suspect the Arsenal team will be even more depleted after playing Allardyces team. He likes to kick lumps off Wenger's boys.

He's so jealous of Wenger it's uncomfortable to watch, yet whenever his team face Man Utd they are always on their best behaviour. If the Gooners survive intact I think the game against the Boro will be good one to watch.

Playing the best team in the world might help the Boro relax and play the football they are capable of. It's no big deal if they get beat - just play well.

I've changed my mind - I'd like to see Joseph Barton playing for the Boro after his stretch at the 'Big House' that is. The shirtless ones won't give him a chance tonight unless he gets a hat-trick.

He obviously has a capacity for violence which is unnacceptable but I think he is capable of growing out of it or having it knocked out of him. He seems to be quite bright but not very good at explaining himself.He'd be a useful addition to O'Neil, Arca, Downing, Cattermole, Johnson.

Offer one of our centre halves plus cash as part of a deal for him and one of their goalkeepers.


Posted by: Score Draw  | December 5, 2007 4:53 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

The Gookster can go for nowt unless he starts popping in some of those youtube belters that he used to produce.
What a bleeding mess!

We can only prevent over thinning the team further by selling only 1 central defender. Anyone but Pogger .

we are in enough trouble without selling Downing and Johnson who have no striker to cross to.If Arca or Tuncay is sold I will go mental as I see these 2 as good playmakers.O'Neil is too good to go ....

Why does Soouthgate stick with Tuncay and Alladierre up front so they can form a partership quicker.Stop putting Downing up front and stop giving it the negative every time you open your mouth to the press.

Just show some experience and grace by ripping yer shirt off and yell UP THE BORO coz there are people who are doubting you big time , not Gibbo as yet though.

PS. I spoke with a mate of mine who is a Bristol City fan after the cup draw was made and he was rubbing his hands and laughing while telling me how good Bristol are playing at the mo.

Needless to say I set the dog on him.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | December 5, 2007 5:10 PM

darren putson wrote...

Cant believe i was sat in the Tees Bridge club after the Villa game with 8 lads that used to go to the game with me and listening to how poor we are and other various opinions about the team, the manager, chairman etc.

It fills me with sadness that mates and family who live so close to the ground are so negative about Boro and wont go and support the lads albeit they stay in the club and watch the game.

For 15 years I've lived away from Teesside and though i do miss some home games (made up with away games) I've had to take a serious look at my own commitment to Boro.

I never thought i would ever hear someone slating Gibbo but after the last game and looking on this forum i dont seem so shocked - saddened and disapointed but not shocked.

I haven t felt this bleak about tne Boro since the early 80 s

Posted by: darren putson  | December 5, 2007 5:51 PM

Mainy wrote...

Realistically we need to buy, we all accept this, however we cannot sell our best players to fund buys as we need them,. I wouldnt even consider selling Downing, trust me he will come good again. He gets a lot of stuck but he isn't the only player under performing.

If you want to sell someone, controversial this, sell Mido & Alidiere. Why? Mido doesnt care, he has already hinted that he wont make the African Nations Cup due to his injury, so if he was fit & despite our position, I'm reading that as he would go! Shows his loyalty there.

Aliadiere, sorry but I was there against villa & he didnt look injured, he ran for the ball, didnt get it, walked away, didnt pull up once, another long ball was played, he didnt bother chasing it, turned to bench & said take me off. The guy doesnt want to play for a struggling team, get him out.

That would free up some cash, along with the rest of money we got for Yak and the money we had lined up for Viduka (so dont try tell me there is nothing to spend as I dont believe it).

I would go for Lita, he is strong & wants to play and wants to score, he is type of player we need. I would test Bolton & try for Kevin Davis, again a big and strong player to hold up the ball. Then we can give Tuncay his roaming role behind them to hopefully come in and create/score the goals.

I would also go and raid LA Galaxy to see if they would allow that Donavan gadgy to come over on loan.

A way to create a bit more cash, dont forget that Andrew Davies is out on loan with a view to an alleged £1m transfer, we could get about £1.5m for Riggott (although I would keep him as think he is one of our better defenders), sell Woodgate, Huth is good enough to replace him as is Poggi & bear in mind young Wheater is currently out shinning him, it may be worth cashing in.

Also we could get about £500k for scharwzer & for same amount poss get Sorrenson or Harper.

Posted by: Mainy  | December 5, 2007 6:28 PM

robin mitton wrote...

Dear AV,

I've just woken up and forgotten where I've been for the last 5 years! I thought I had been supporting the most progressive football club in the country.

Silverware at last, best youth academy under the tutelage of Dave Parnaby (Manager of the future?), UEFA Cup Final, best Community Trust under George Cooke etc.

But I have discovered it was just one vast delusion, a shimmering chimera created by my desert like febrile imagination. Doh!

I better get mesen down the cop shop and find out why I've become the feeble-minded cretin I palpably am...they'll know what do with us won't they?

Robin Ding Dong Merrily On High!!!


SIMON BROON - Do you fancy becoming Daddy Crimbo next year?

Posted by: robin mitton  | December 5, 2007 7:16 PM

Richard wrote...

To Ian Oliver:
Ian, to quote your post......

"By an arrogant Chairman so out-of-touch with the demands and realities of running a Premiership football club. He is no better than those of the Ridsdale/ Bates/ Ellis/Sugar ilk who have forced their business egos into the football arena with disastrous consequences."

Ian,
I genuinely don't think Steve Gibson is out-of-touch with what it takes to run a Premiership Football Club. I just don't think he can afford to run a successful, genuinely competitive Premier League Football Club in the long term, any more. Not because Steve Gibson isn't rich or hasn't got any business or executive managerial capabilities - he's already proved that he has!

He simply isn't rich ENOUGH!

Regrettably, the facts are, I believe, that the Premier League is in the (very rapid) process of financially outgrowing the Middlesbroughs of this world (sorry, "country").

The boost in revenues from TV (especially this season) created a window of opportunity for those from overseas predominantly - who's playing field is international business played on the global scale (- NOT local hauliers!) and with available financial backing to seize the opportunity to grab a slice of the Premier League action in the form of INTERNATIONALLY recognised "brands" (clubs) whose location and/or critical mass enables them to be developed INTERNATIONALLY and also satisfy the criteria most beneficial to the other financial stakeholders in the Premier League. I refer to Sky, Setanta and the news media - all of whom benefit most from headcount. And where are the heads? In cities! And in front of TV's the world over!

I have been fortunate enough to travel the world (Far East and Asia) on business and on holiday for many years and I eventually became blasé to the conversations struck up by local residents in the many countries I visited, about the English Premiership and the knowledge of those locals about our Premiership clubs and competition.

They're in front of their TV's several times a week watching our clubs perform - and they're paying the TV Networks for the privilege. So every TV, or associated or affiliated network that takes Sky or Setanta makes them money. That's one hell of a lot of TVs! And a lot of money for Sky.

In this country, similarly, the big money for them is in high population density areas - cities! So we shouldn't be surprised when for example, as we saw earlier this year, the case of Yakubu's transfer to Everton being actively and positively encouraged by sections of the international and national media.

It's in their interests for clubs in high-population density areas to be successful and to populate the Premier League. To expect them to "support", promote or even take any kind of preferential (or even-handed)interest in provincial clubs would be naive.

It is up to us in this region/ district, to make the most of our own lot but, in this particular race, we’re not close to being favourites. It’s not a handicap race where allowances for accidents of geography or history are made!

As I've said in AV's blogs in the past, with financial " very heavy-hitters" moving, shaking and shaping the future of the Premier League, don't blame Steve Gibson for not being richer than he is! And there's no one to blame either for the geographic and demographic conditions that resulted in Middlesbrough being what and where it is!

We’re not in London or Manchester or Liverpool or Birmingham or even Newcastle or Sunderland (for heavens sake!).

If sufficient financial backing was available to overcome certain “natural� disadvantages, Boro could be made competitive. But the risk/reward balance is greater for us than for the low-hanging fruit of clubs whose natural attributes are more in keeping with the success criteria required by the (very) big-monied stakeholders.

Posted by: Richard  | December 5, 2007 9:53 PM

Jester Joke wrote...

Obviously on paper on even on Football Manager, I still believe our current crop of players are good enough to get us out of the bottom 3 with maybe a 16-17th place finish.

But I sense somethings wrong with the backroom staff & the players. GS selections are bizarre and outrageous. Choose anyone in this forum and they're probably do a big better job.

Just drop the players who look like their heart is gone. Drop Schwarzer, Woody, Downing, Rocky. In place of them Turnbull, Huth, Jonno, & Boat should do better. Let our international stars fight for their place. And if by January they don't hit their grade...sack GS.

No use in selling our stars if he can't manage this team..new players who will dare come will never be close to this grade.

If history serves me right,GS will not be fired as same as all his predecessors. So get a quick mentor like
Terry Venebles in the past or even a Steve McClaren would do.


A new striker should be needed. Just find someone who is hunger to prove his worth in the Premiership. Old stars like Hasselbank or Fowler or a Paul Dickov or loan players like Dave Nugent whom made big name in premiership but hardly made the Portsmouth team.

I support keeping all our players and if results don't come...overhaul the backstaff!!

Posted by: Jester Joke  | December 6, 2007 3:00 AM

Tees Betting Scene wrote...

It is a disgrace the fact we are even contemplating selling some of our best players in order to strengthen the ranks.

Where the hell as the cash saved from Viduka's wages, Yakubu's £11.25m sale and James Morrison £2m gone? Not to mention the supposed bonanza from the TV rights?

True we spent £13m on Aliadiere, Mido and Tuncay as I feel we had the cash for Woodgate last season! But we still must have some funds left to sign a few players!

If we start wheeling and dealing with our best players we are going down! Mind you I think that looks a certainty anyway at the moment unless Tuncay can suddenly click and prove to be a 20-goal a season man!

Posted by: Tees Betting Scene  | December 6, 2007 8:39 AM

robin mitton wrote...

Jester Joke,

Re: Hasselbank = yer jokin arnt yu? Went to see him playing for Charlton at the end of last season and he's fat (alright he can still run quicker than you and me) and the club needs fit as buthcher's dogs players.

I don't think another 'flying pig' is a fitting solution in this league. This kind of idea surely shows there's FOGG ON THE TEES thinking here?

Robin Mitton
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS

Posted by: robin mitton  | December 6, 2007 10:50 AM

jiffy wrote...

Just imagine you are this gadgie who went canoeing and has just resurfaced after an absence of 5 years. Imagine he is a Boro fan and knows nothing about what has happened at the club in his absence.

He wakes up this week to find Boro struggling at the foot of the PL with an inept manager and a team seriously incapable of surviving. So no change there then he musht think!

Now tell him these facts:

Feb 2004

The club beat Bolton in Cardiff to win the club's first ever major trophy. The club reach the final with home and away victories over Arsenal in the semis. On the back of this the club play in Europe for the first time in its history.

Season 2004/5
On the back of european qualification the club sign major international strikers like Hasselbaink and Viduka plus highly rated internationals like Reiziger - just like the days of Juninho and Rav! Acreditable first ever performance in Europe sees the club seruiously threaten to go all the way in the UEFA Cup and may have done so but for an unprecendented injury list in the later stages. However the team then qulaifies for Europe again on league placing. Amongst their victims in this cuprun are the mighty Lazio.

Season 2005/6
The team reach the FA Cup semi final again and also the UEFA Cup final! This time beating the likes of Stuttgart, Roma, Basle and Steuea Bucharest en route.

Today

Back where they were when he vanished.

How could anyone seriously expect him to believe all that!

Ya jokin arn ya

Posted by: jiffy  | December 6, 2007 11:15 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Schwarzer has said that he's ready to play on sunday with a plastic guard on his broken thumb.

I would only consider this option if the plastic guard is eight foot high and 16 foot wide.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | December 6, 2007 11:45 AM

Nigel wrote...

GS needs to play Arca on Sunday, even if he needs a pain killing injection. To not play him on the basis that we're going to loose so why bother, would be madness.

We need our strongest side out and playing with the attitude that we're going to win. Arsenal are not invincible, the barcodes got a result so we can to.

As for the keeper, I'd play Turnbull ahead of Schwarzer, he looked good at Reading and it may give Schwarzer a kick up the posterior.

What intrigues me in terms of team selection are the centre backs, plenty to choose from , I'd play Woodie and Huth.

Posted by: Nigel  | December 6, 2007 12:13 PM

Score Draw wrote...

To my mind there is no way that Schwarzer has a broken thumb. He's not the sort to play through the 'pain barrier'.

"There's something rotten in the state of Middlesbrough"

If Turnbull is dropped I predict it will bring about an ugly revolt down by the Riverside. It'll be the end of Southgate for sure.

Posted by: Score Draw  | December 6, 2007 12:14 PM

Score Draw wrote...

What sort of weirdoes are in charge of this club ? The way they have played with my emotions over the last couple of weeks would be considered abusive in any normal relationship.

To be 'lied to' about Schwarzer is the final straw, my family and friends down the pub will be devastated having to listen to me drone on like some 'boring ecological recycling evangelist'. It's not fair on them !!!

It's the lies that hurt most.

Turnbull forever !!!!

**AV writes: You have got to admire a man who plays up to his own stereotype.

Posted by: Score Draw  | December 6, 2007 12:29 PM

Dek wrote...

Just sprayed the wall with coffee after reading 'Schwarzer ready to play with thumb guard'.

Why not put that mask back on him and send him out with a pot leg as well? Joking apart, Turnbull PLEASE!

Oh, and play Tuncay and Aliadiere every game, not Lee Dong Goof.

Posted by: Dek  | December 6, 2007 1:49 PM

Nigel wrote...

I'm not one of the growing crowd of fans who think Schwarzer is now an incompetent liability so I'm happy with him being no.1 for a few months longer.

That said Given his thumb is not healed and Turnbull did a decent job last week and looked confident it would be a travesty to drop him. Turnbull in goal on Sunday, Tuncay up front and Arca in midfield.

Posted by: Nigel  | December 6, 2007 2:43 PM

jazzeejeff wrote...

I have never read so much utter rubbish in all my life...as all the above posts..... where are you all coming from.

I agree get rid of Gareth..an bring MOGGA back..he's BORO through an through...he's done wonders at HIBS and WBA..with their youth.... with MOGGA he would keep the home born talent...WHY do we have an academy ?

Can't believe the posts that we sell stewie an johnno... .these are our bedrocks an we have to build around them...forget imports...sell the mido's..tunguy's and all the rest of the useless big buys that don't wear the badge on their heart...

AV start a new thread/poll SOUTHGATE OUT / MOGGA IN ....let the fans vote..
Rant over

R&R
Jazzee

Ps.. Wasn't it Hansan that said you cant win the league by playing kids....LOL

Posted by: jazzeejeff  | December 6, 2007 3:40 PM

Nigel wrote...

An excellent article by Jeff Winter, a voice of reason while the rest of us descend into mass hysteria as we stare into the Championship abyss!

Posted by: Nigel  | December 6, 2007 3:50 PM

Never Happy wrote...

As we all know, no matter what is posted on this blog GS will be his own man and pick his team.

It is with this in mind and just to prove a point of how he knows best, I fear we will see a one handed Schwarzer in goal and a clueless Gook up front.

Tuncay will be left to fume on the bench and a chorus of you don't know what youre doing will be echoing around the Riverside before full time.

I hope I am wrong but I fear the worst.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 6, 2007 4:20 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Richard

Your argument about the smaller Prem clubs going to the wall or the Championship only holds water so far.

There are still several reasonably successful clubs run by benificent local chairmen such as Gibbo, and as has been posted on here many times, some of them aren't particularly attractive to the rich foreign buyer. Boro are certainly one of those.

But most of these clubs are run successfully and some do remarkably well in a Prem of haves and have-nots. I'm thinking particularly of Bolton and Blackburn.

Both are run on a shoe-string and until Bolton's demise this season, both have perennially punched above their weight. They both play to their strengths very well. And Boro are the most successful cup side of the last 10 years outside the big 4 and have a UEFA Cup final appearance in the very recent past. Not many other Prem clubs, wealthy or not, can boast that record.

Where I think it's going wrong for us now is not just financial. It's much more about poor decisions that have been made - definitely about replacing strikers with an unproven combination, and almost certainly (though I still hope to be proved wrong about this) appointing the wrong manager.

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | December 6, 2007 4:27 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Never Happy

I might be wrong, but I think Darius Vassell now plays for Man City. Your point is right, though! He couldn't score in a brothel last season, and can't get into the first 11 this year!! Spare us, please!

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | December 6, 2007 4:32 PM

Mainy wrote...

Good news, Arsenal are set to be Missing Fabregas, Hleb & Flamini on sunday.

Bad news, Schwarzer is declaring himself fit.

For me the team should be (if everyone is fit):
Turnbull
Young
Huth
Poggi
Taylor
Johnson
O'Neil
Boateng
Downing
Tuncay
Alidiere

subs: Jones, Rocky, Cattermole, Wheater, Hutchinson.

Thats a team that should compete and hopefully give a few players a kick up the bum.

Everyone is slaging off GS however I dont hear anyone praising him for what he did with Woodgate against Reading. He actually came out and said he was not injured & was taken off as GS was unhappy with the way he defended for their goal as it was 2 similar to the 3rd that Villa got the week before.

Sorry but that is the right thing to do for me, why protect the player, hopefully he will see he now has to fight for his place.

Jazzeejeff, forget about Mogga, if your looking for a manager look elsewhere, Mogga has already stated that he doesnt want the job as he is considered a legend here and doesnt want to ruin that.

Posted by: Mainy  | December 6, 2007 4:44 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Surely the only way to improve any team is to have competition for places.With this in mind no player should be guaranteed his place in the team.

Turnbull did well at Reading and so he should keep his place.Not only will this boost his confidence it will also let Schwarzer know that he will need to work hard if he is to regain his place in the team.

It must be soul destroying for a player to come into the team, play well and then be dropped just because a so called senior player is back from injury or suspension.

C’mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | December 6, 2007 4:45 PM

Malc wrote...

Sell Woody- you've been on the sauce Vic.

Lets release Bates, Gook and Schwarzer.

We should bring in Sorensen so the backline can get used to him.

We'll do okay for goals as Mido missing the African Nations Cup means we'll get the big man back fully fit. When fit, him and Tuncay will get goals aplenty.

Posted by: Malc  | December 6, 2007 7:05 PM

Mainy wrote...

Hopefully Schwarzer doesnt have the same hold over Southgate that he seemed to have over Mclaren.

Can anybody else remember Mark Crossley. Played well everytime he was called upon (kinda like harper at newcastle) but for some strange reason beyong the knowledge of all fans, they get dropped for keepers who are deemed to be the number 1 who then play their normal game leaving you wondering as to why your reserve keeper got dropped.

For me, stick with Turnbull, not only coz he played well against Reading but the fact that he will come under a lot more pressure against arsenal and we need to see how he handles it. Bear in mind that schwarzer is out of contract, Turnbull could save us some money on a new keeper.

The other reason why I'd stick with Turnbull is schwarzer has already stated he doesnt know how we will react if he gets caught on his thumb (if i was arsenal players id deliberatly target it with shots and made sure i caught it as i was running past him). The other reason is, Brad Jones is pants, he is the only keeper ive ever seen that can actually throw the ball further than he can kick it.

Posted by: Mainy  | December 6, 2007 8:01 PM

Richard wrote...

To Clive Hurren:

Clive,
I accept your points fully about the "exceptions" - there have always historically been some and Portsmouth, Bolton, Boro, Reading, Wigan, and Blackburn, to name a few, have, with others, all been there at some time in the last 10 years. I hesitate to include Portsmouth although they are there currently, because they have spent a fair bit of money bringing Redknapp back and players in.

I'm taking a longer term view about sustainability and the ability of provincial clubs to be able to challenge for European places with more than an outside chance of getting a shot at it.

There are clear signs from the points distribution this season that all of the European qualifying positions henceforth may get monopolized by the bigger "city" clubs with money behind them.

There are 6 (or 7) available "slots". We can assume that 4 of them will go to Man U, Chelski, Arsenal and Liverpool. That leaves 2 (or 3 at best) to be “contested�.

Everton, Man City, Villa, West Ham, Spurs, Newcastle (if they ever again get their act together!) will all have access to greater funding in years to come. On balance, they'll be able to buy better players and appoint better managers and coaching staff than the rest of us.

If you study the drift in end-of-season points in the Premiership/ League over its history, you'll find consistently, that the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer (in points terms!). And this season, the split - the polarisation - at this stage in the season, is greater