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Untypical Boro is a lively topical blog by the Evening Gazette's award winning football columnist Anthony Vickers that aims to get behind the headlines to flesh out the stories that Boro fans are talking about.

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New Year, New Era?

Posted by on December 30, 2007 10:30 PM | 

NEW YEAR, new era of openness, communication and engagement? All the signs are that after several aloof years of damaging ivory tower estrangement, Boro may be inching towards a new healthier and more productive relationship with their supporters. And about time too.

Prompted by the inescapable visible impact of the spreading red desert of empty seats the club appear to be now facing up to a key question that could yet determine the future of "the Riverside Revolution": how did the club fail to cash the PR blank cheque after Cardiff and Eindhoven? How could the long awaited, totally unprecedented and undoubtedly glorious high points of a long Golden Age be followed by such a profound crisis of faith and the mass desertion of so many vocally disenchanted Red Bookers? And how can the tide be turned?

The latest move towards a post Fordy Glasnost is the news that Boro are to hold a fans' vote on the possible return of the White Band, a exercise in consumer democracy that is revealed today exclusively in the steam driver paper ink and paper format Evening Gazette.

My feelings on the iconic and eye-catching branding device have been made clear time and again (much to the annoyance of club commercial chiefs) and have been widely echoed by marketing savvy supporters and sentimentalists everywhere - but whatever the pros and cons of the shirt design the mechanism that has been chosen is a major step forward.

The shirt colours are highly symbolic and strike an emotional chord with supporters and clubs who are cavalier with such things face a backlash, as the club know from their mailbag after dropping the band without consultation or explanation.

In the past the club offered supporters a programme poll on the colours of the away strip, giving the chance to choose between a selection of lines from the Errea catalogue that had little relevence to the history of the club and which were then apraded around the pitch by the latest batch of Boro Babes and Beefcakes. This year, at the depth of the beleagured club's isolation from the public, even that sop was denied.

So the notion of running a poll on such most fundamental aspect of the HOME shirt is a significant political development. Of course we can quibble: maybe a design competition among schools and colleges (possibly linked to projects on the cultural history of the shirt) may tick a few more boxes and offer a longer running PR campaign that reaches beyond the readership of the programme but that is for the future. For now this is a most welcome thaw.

Slowly the club are opening themselves up to the notion that the supporters have a stake in the club, an emotional investment of incredible importance and the powers that be are tentatively acknowledging that there are compelling commercial reasons to let the supporters have a voice in some aspects of the operation.

We all know the background to the current dysfunctional stand-off. Layer upon layer of small individual quibbles from shirt stocking shortfalls to Eindhoven tickets, some classic foot-in-mouth PR own goals, commercial cock-ups, the frosty relationship with the media (and especially the crucial local media), the perception of a club that does not acknowledge its mistakes and does not value the fans builds up into a mosaic of discontent and offers supporters a string of excuses to walk away, excuses that are invariably taken when the quality of football is poor and when the club really need them most.

The simmering discontent and feeling of alienation has left fans feeling estranged from the club they love - a contradiction described on here as loving Boro but hating MFC - and in the heightened emotional arena of football the smallest frustrations have become magnified into grounds for divorce. That is why long time diehards have walked away and wrapped in their Red Books - even the old precious S and Ts - citing as the deal-breaker what should be peripheral issues like the quality and tardiness of the shirts, kiosk prices, the smoking ban, queuing for away tickets, the seemingly arbitrary change of badge, the purging of populist dissident Bernie Slaven and, yes, the sudden disappearance of the white band.

The club to its credit has started to realise that not only do they have a responsibility in the breakdown of those relationships but they are the only ones with the power to repair them. And there have been some very encouraging signs of late that they are ready and willing to do that.

They have brought in new marketing guru, chief operating officer Neil Bausor, to review the entire 'customer facing' club structure with a brief to sharpen up the commercial and customer relations aspects of the set-up and bring in some elements of best practice from other business sectors. His first major decision was to prune Garham Fordy and advise the club to become more pro-active in its approach to the supporters who are the lifeblood of the club.

The first indication was the on-line poll on the coitus interruptus abomination that is goal celebration music. Again it was flawed - it was limited to the cyber constituency, there was no 'don't know' option, there was no debate on the issue or comment on the grating choice of "Chelsea Dagger" of all things to prompt fans to react to a Boro goal, and it produced the worst possible result of a "yes" but by less than half a per centage point - but it was a start.

Then there was the move towards a new type of viral marketing with the release of the David Wheater 'passion' video e-mailed to 25,000 supporters, advertising that was not selling a product but a concept, asking not for cash but for commitment.

There will be more developments too. In a recent Hurworth meeting between Gareth Southgate and a delegation from fans' group the Twe12th Man the question of what it would take to get the fans excited and engaged again was raised and in a far reaching discussion that covered a lot of points raised repeatedly on this blog over the years, Bauser was scribbling away on his club crested notebook. He will have had plenty of food for thought.

Ultimately whether Boro are a success and whether there is a good matchday atmosphere comes down to what they do on the pitch but whether there is a healthy, flourishing and dynamic relationship with supporters comes down to what they do off it. We must hope that Boro have resolved to deliver on both fronts in 2008.

Happy New Year.

Comments (81)

John Powls wrote...

AV

Applaud everything you say and the start the club have made along the lines we have been calling for for ages.

We have to convince them that they are doing the right thing and that those still small voices in MFC that are creating these opportunities have their voices strengthened because we all respond. And so that the nay-sayers can't do a 'told you so, they're not interested'.

So, whatever your view of the white band (and, of course, the answer is 'yes' we should have it back!) the important thing is that we all vote. So let's flood the website with votes.

Let's those of us with kids of the right age and who are in the vicinity take advantage of the ticket offers.

And when we're offered the chance to make our feelings known let's do so, in the spirit that we all love the Boro - even those who are still more in love with MFC.

Happy New Year and all good things to you and yours for 2008.

PS - Phil, who is my style guru agreed with me that the white socks we wore at Pompey improved the look of the most uninspiring kit we've had for years. How about keeping those until we've got the white band back?

Posted by: John Powls  | December 31, 2007 11:25 AM

Rob wrote...

Good analysis ,Vic.

Collectively these points show how far behind Boro are the Premiership professionals. This constant small town, punching above our weight mantra needs to end - NOW!

Why don't the Boro have screns inside the stadium?? I remember being at Reading and the atmosphere being whipped up pre match by showing goals from their promotion season to awe inspiring music.

How about us showing Europe and CC Cup highlights on such screens?

Doubt there would be a place for Mark Page if we crank up the image of the club though.

Posted by: Rob  | December 31, 2007 11:55 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

I hope that Gate used the trip to Pompey yesterday to talk to 'Arry about Matt Taylor - though not at the daft money they are reputedly asking.

On the 'target man, can hold the ball up and get goals' front, meanwhile...

I think Nugent - though I was a big supporter as he left Preston and debuted for Eng-er-lund - is not a good bet for the window. He made no impact when he came on yesterday, is too like what we've already got and if he can't make their forward line for a start or two in a home game, well......

I was interested to see that Blackburn left contract refusenik Jason Roberts out of the squad yesterday. I think his pace and power would suit what we want and he should be affordable and available soon but they may want a 'gentleman's agreement' that he is diplomatically unfit when we play them in January.

Lita could move but he would be, likely, more pricy and comes (if you'll pardon the apt punning expression) with baggage that we could do without. If we were looking in that direction and we have the cash then Kitson is the one.

He still has a hate thing for Riggs, though, so we may need to offer him in part-ex as the Royals are in need of defensive re-inforcements.

The Amoeba from The Skunks still struggles to get a game for them but I rate him too erratic and unpredictable in his play to suit what we want. Rumours are that Veruka is unhappy - fancy a loaner, big man?

Hulse is still recovering from that bad leg break and The Blades may be less keen to let him go now that Beattie is injured. He missed a couple of sitters in their game yesterday and is a bit 'thud and blunder' for the Prem.

I don't see any other Championship strikers who could come in and do a job quickly and put pressure on Mido for his place when (if) he returns from Ghana.

Santi Ezquerro from Barca has also been mentioned but at 31 he's knocking on and a mid-season shift to the Prem from La Liga isn't likely to work with the speed we need. Although Gudjohnssen has previous and may settle quicker he's not what we need.

The Alves stories seem to have died down whether they are about us or Citeh.

If we could go for two rather than just one and we don't want to spend much, then I'm still with you on Dickov. A complete bloody nuisance who harries the life out of defenders and sneaks a goal or two. The sort of nasty little player you love if he plays for you and love to hate if he plays against you.

Any other suggestions?

On other positions and possibilities - Gera should still be a target,for me, though with The Baggies going so well it may be harder that it would have been in the Summer. He is another contract refusenik though.

I'd play him on the right and bring O'Neil inside to give us the ideal box-to-box man we've been missing since - well, Emerson on a good day if he could be arsed! A midfield of Stewie, Arca, O'Neil and Gera would be formidable.

Talking of Stewie, I was well pleased when The Count came out decisively on the 'not for sale' stance in response the other day - only to find out that he's playing silly beggars with contracts - again.

Get it sorted. As yesterday proved - yet again - he is our best and most consistent source of quality supply, and yesterday he grafted too. The disciplined width that he and O'Neil provided was key to our win. I don't want to see him showing what he can do in a team that - to use his quote - matches his ambition.

I think that there are a few decent goalies around that can't get a regular Prem game - Sorensen, Cudicini, Harper to name but a few. Foster from ManUre would be a good bet but is still on the comeback from injury - he might also have freed up Kusczak.

In The Championship there is Muller from Barnsley - but we are told that Arsenal are likely to bid there to replace the Mad Hun. Not heard how our Summer target Lesjal from Brno has been getting on.

Early and positive moves would be good but as Ian will doubtless say, if we get anyone at all it'll be at 23.59 on 31 Januaryy!

Posted by: John Powls  | December 31, 2007 12:19 PM

paul hart wrote...

Hi - I'm one of the disenchanted ex S red book holders...

Valid points as normal AV...

My unhapiness was growing the 2 seasons prior to eindhoven; the paucity of entertainment, the aloofness of the club - 'you're stuck with us for life', kind of attitude given by the club.

In Eindhoven square, I thought, 'this is as good as it's going to get', and while walking back to the coach resolved not to renew after 13 successive seasons...

Have i missed it? Er, no. The club will have to do much more to try and entice me and 1000s of other disenchanted long term fans to return...

Posted by: paul hart  | December 31, 2007 12:37 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

I'll beleive it when I see it. Boro are the only club in the world who could actually turn being in a European final into a PR disaster. I'm sure they'll manage to find a way to rub people up the wrong way on this too.

The instinct of the club is to blame the fans, Bernie, the Gazette... anyone but themselves. They have lost 10,000 fans in five years because the club refused point blank to listen to fans saying they were wrong on this that and the other. Tiny infuriating things.

It will take more than appointing one new fella to change the instinct of the club. One set back and they will kneejerk and revert to type.

(White Band must return BTW)

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | December 31, 2007 1:01 PM

Score Draw wrote...

We looked good on Saturday but so we should with such terrific players (Arca, ONeill, Woodgate, Pogatetz, Downing...... Johnson ...Tuncay).

After a very good performance and an opportunity to sing the praises of some very talented players:
"Arca for Argentina"
"O'Neill for England"
"Woodgate should be in the England squad"
"Pogatetz or Austria"
"Fair treatment for Pogatetz"
"Downing back to form"

Gareth Southgate decides it's time to get involved with the Newcastle debacle and offer some support for 'Big' Sam. Ironic when you consider that Allardyce was one of those managers that didn't support the unqualified Southgate getting the Boro job.

Is this unseemly public 'Butt Kissing' designed to soften up Sam so that he sells us Ameobi ? God help us - I hope not !!

For someone who is clearly intelligent and unemotional Southgate's utterances baffle me. He does realise he's managing Boro doesn't he ?

Can someone tell Gareth most of the residents of leafy Middlesbrough are laughing their 'vitals' off at the prospect of:

Joey spending New Year in the 'Big House' !
Alan Smith as captain !!
Martins on the bench !!!
Michael Owen fit again !!!!
Those Centre Backs !!!!!

Come on Gareth concentrate on getting a central midfielder and a goalscorer. Forget about poor old Sam, Northern Rock ....... Just manage the Boro after it all it has it's own problems and challenges and if your not careful you will become one of them.

Happy New Year

**AV writes: Gareth Southgate has a trait unusual in managers - he actually answers questions, you know, thinks about what has been asked and responds in an honest and articulate way.

The national press have tumbled this now and ask him a lot of general questions because he gives good quotes to pad out stories on non-Boro issues.

In the long run it will be a benefit for the club because he will get a more sympathetic ear in the national press pack than McClaren ever did.

Posted by: Score Draw  | December 31, 2007 1:16 PM

buffaloboro wrote...

First, Happy New Year to all from the US - the land of marketing spin!

1 - Bring back the band - it gives us a unique 'brand'

2 - Shoot the person who designed the woeful badge we currently have. Personally, I wld have returned to the pre-86 badge.

3 - Ticket sales are an issue. I think there needs to be more flexibility in seating ( maybe areas for kids etc ) & a proper look at how effective creative prices really are in raising revenue.

Posted by: buffaloboro  | December 31, 2007 1:22 PM

jiffy wrote...

Like Paul Hart I was an S red book holder since the Riverside opened and have also not been to a game since Eindhoven and I certainly don't miss it.

I hadnt been for several months however before that game. Frankly i can't see any possibility of my returning - precisely what am i missing?

I think the club are deflecting attention away from the real issues with trivia like the white band returning or goal celebration music and wonder at the mentality of people who raise such a stink over banal issues like a new badge!

I cant say it was the prices either that drove me away either. They are no higher than they were 2 or 3 seasons ago so if I could afford it then why is it so much more of a financial burden now?

No I gave up going because I couldn't see the point in watching a competition where my club was only concerned with staying in the league rather than genuinely competing in it. That and the fact that it was New years Eve before I could see a home game at 3 o clock on a Saturday that season. Sky TV has a lot to answer for.

The Premier League is a pointless excercise like the top division in Scotland or Holland or Portugal where just a couple of clubs dominate it every year. Why bother playing the games at all - let the pools panel dictate the outcomes.

I might go to a cup game of course but then again the club prefers to treat those as reserve fixtures instead of turning out the best team to try and actually progress in the competition.

Its not the first time I have abandoned the game. Curiously enough it was top-flight football under Jack Charlton that drove me away before - football played like a game of chess was a total yawn. That and the club financing each signing by selling the player we were seeking a partner for. Again we were happy to just make up numbers but top flight football has always seemed to me to be far less entertaining than divisions below. Perhaps it's the increased genuine competitive element I need.

I didnt return that time until liquidation - curiously feeling guilty as one of those whose defection brought about the club's almost complete downfall I suppose.

Relegation to a genuinely competitive level of football or the complete defection of those handful of parasitic clubs at the top of the tree to a European superleague is the minimum requirement for my return to being a paying customer again.

Posted by: jiffy  | December 31, 2007 1:51 PM

Chris from Beverley wrote...

AV,

Personally I think it makes little difference whether the white band is kept or not.

Whilst the club continue to offer inferior merchandise the fans will treat it with the disdain it deserves. Surely Mr.Bausor must have had his ears bent already with this old chestnut I doubt he will be able to overcome the hold Errea seems to have on the club's officials.

It's a shame they didn't link up with Nike, Puma or Umbro, at least there would have been a fashion statement worth debating.

Still, all major changes originate with small steps, let us hope this is not a case of one forward and three back.

Posted by: Chris from Beverley  | December 31, 2007 3:26 PM

Bukowski wrote...

Good to see the club are pretty much admitting they made a mistake when they ditched the band for this season.

However, will they now admit they made a mistake when they introduced the current woefully-designed badge? How about a poll on which badge we should use going forward? I don't know or know of many people who like the current one.

Posted by: Bukowski  | December 31, 2007 4:05 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

No way I can go with the idea someone designed the badge unless it was by Steve Gibsons 3 year old nephew and no one was brave enough to say anything.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | December 31, 2007 6:15 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

All excellent points AV. No doubt the comments on this board and from other sources have finally percolated through to the powers that be. Its still very early days though and there is a long way to go to dispel the mistrust and disenchantment felt by the missing ten thousand.

On the white band issue the white feature (white yoke) goes back to at least circa 1912 that I know of. This feature is what makes us Boro and proud.

Taking it a step further Ironopolis used to have a blue kit with a white sash as an away kit! Perhaps another pro-active positive opportunity for the new Riverside PR machine? Oh and ditch the Harry Potter badge at the same time!

A good hard fought display at Fratton Park. Lets have the same effort and determination tomorrow against the Toffees and dispel the "Typical Boro" tag.

Another 3 Points and a good gap between us and the relegation scrappers could be a huge bargaining chip in Gareth's favour when it comes to attracting fresh blood over the next few weeks, not to mention putting a few thousand extra derriere's on seats!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | December 31, 2007 6:38 PM

Ste Mac wrote...

Think you are right AV, the penny has finally dropped that it is no good blaming the supporters, or Slaven, or football in the pubs or the Gazette. The club have lost fans because they have taken us for mugs and abused our loyalty.

A lot of people are now very cynical (I admit I am one) and will see that as a reluctent u-turn with one eye on the bottom line.

For me and the other S/Ts that didnt get tickets for Eindhoven it will take a lot of hard work to rebuild that trust again.

Posted by: Ste Mac  | December 31, 2007 7:03 PM

scoredraw wrote...

Anthony:

Interesting defence of Gareth's comments on the Newcastle situation.

I must say I feel that sometimes it requires a bit more sophistication and a bit less Pollyanna . Rather than simply answering the question that the MEDIA/PRESS ask you, it makes sense to set the agenda rather than react to it.

While it might be a 'nice trait' to simply respond to any question that is posed to you, and the press will no doubt love you but do you really think it's a virtue ?

Let me put it another way. Do you think Wenger, Ferguson, Marinho, Capello answer every question that is put to them in the open style of Forest Gump ?

He should be talking about the Boro and not getting involved in other teams problems. He'll be slaughtered for it. He should have been concentrating on the Boro and all the good things that happened at the weekend.

The media seduce managers, tell them how clever and articulate they are and then devour them when they start 'spouting off'. They love a 'rent a quote'.
He'll learn the hard way - shame we have to.

Off to the pub

**AV writes: He is learning. Eventually he will be very good at using the press but in a different way from the others.

Posted by: scoredraw  | December 31, 2007 8:22 PM

steve h wrote...

I thought the white socks at Portsmouth made the kit look good as well. My boys agreed.

I think the white band is good because it makes us a bit different from other teams.

Boro were unlucky that the final was in Eindhoven. If it had been in some stadium that seated 60 or 70 thousand there would have been no problems. All the red book holders would have recieved a ticket. I can understand some of them being angry at being overlooked.

Southgate is very articulate. I'm sure he will go on to be a great success. Thankfully Steve Gibson remains loyal to his managers.

And a happy new year to everyone on here. It always makes pleasant reading.

Posted by: steve h  | January 1, 2008 1:36 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Ste Mac

Many walk up supporters were hacked off even before Eindhoven with the abysmal ticketing procedures for the Carling Cup Final.

I went to matches in the cup run and had stubs but never had a chance of a ticket. Because the club had no idea who had been to matches people who were already guaranteed tckets could give their stubs to friends who maybe hadnt been to match. Then there was the opportunity for touts to sell stubs. Add in fans could buy up to 5 tickets if they had the stubs. That is ticketing chaos.

I am not having a go at people giving their mates stubs because that is what friends do for each other. The culprits were the clubs lack of marketing knowledge or a coherent plan.

Season ticket holders got the Carling Cup tickets they deserved for paying out every season. It wasnt until Eindhoven that they felt the full scale of MFC incompetence. Reading about it with a cup final ticket in your pocket is one thing, experiencing it first had is a different kettle of fish.

It does appear the club are trying to improve in many areas and let us hope they succeed.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | January 1, 2008 9:42 AM

Danny wrote...

Um if the rumours are correct Boro are aiming to sign Rob Hulse??? is he better than what we have? no way.

Is this now the ambition Boro have, to sign a second rate striker from a league below? Surely a team that is supposidly building and progressive then we need to attract quality players such as the likes of Anelka or my own prefered favourite being Jermaine Defoe. Maybe the likes of Defoe would be the kickstart we need and it might get supporters back through the turnstiles.

BRING BACK THE BAND!!! and bring back Jackie Charlton too. Is David Mills or Big John Hickton fit? give em both a shirt and play them against Everton.

Posted by: Danny  | January 1, 2008 10:28 AM

deka wrote...

Good post AV. You would think that after 2 major cup finals cardiff and eindhoven the club should have gone up a level,most other clubs would have.

We need a positive approach to the future which includes involving everyone,club, players and supporters. People are not stupid, if the product isnt up to scratch they will look elsewhere.

Dont forget,when the riverside opened for the first season there were only 15,000 season ticket holders, the rest joined when the little fella, rav and emo arrived,which proves the point..give the fans what they want and they will turn up.

We need to recreate that era again and it can only be done by bringing in top quality players, anything else is false economy. We dont need to bring in 11 players but one quality striker and a creative midfielder will transform the team...take note boro the customer is always right.

Posted by: deka  | January 1, 2008 12:14 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Whether in favour of the white band or not (I am) that was not the main issue. The sheer disregard of the fans was the cause of the disatisfaction, the band issue was another straw added to the load on the camels back.

PS AV a good blog, I would have been happy to have written half of that myself.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | January 1, 2008 12:14 PM

Phil ex Warrenby wrote...

We lost that one before we even went out!!!

How can Southgate even think of playing Dong Gook? The man has no presence at all. We would be better off playing with ten men.Surely he can see that.

If he thinks Hutch or Craddock are not ready he could put Catts up front, at least he would stir up the defences and cause a bit of panic. I honestly can't recall Lee winning one challenge.Send him out on loan.

And what Happened to Shawky? Not even on the bench.

We cant keep on hoping that other results are going our way or we are looking at the big drop. Get someone up front with a bit of muscle I thought young Ben made a difference as soon as he came on same with Jinky.

I just dont fathom the selections.No wonder the place is half empty. I would have walked out myself if I was'nt sitting at home. Its not easy going back to bed in the middle of the night after all these poor results at home. And its not like being able to get it off your chest with a couple of pints and a good old moan at the bar, ooohh memories.

Up the Boro

Posted by: Phil ex Warrenby  | January 1, 2008 5:41 PM

patrick steele wrote...

@ Ste Mac: get over it luv

@ Paul Hart and his ilk: if your decision to attend matches has been based on the club's potential to win the premier league then may i respectfully suggest you don't get it and have been following the wrong team all along .

You maybe ought to have joined the plastic army of shallow / immature armchair-bound glory-hunting Teessiders who try to claim some sort of emotional / tenuous allegiance to one of the faraway Sky clubs along with people in Gloucestershire, Dublin,
Tokyo,etc.

The frequent claim that MFC missed an
opportunity to establish themselves as a major force in the game on the back of the UEFA final is also a bit of a wild assertion given our limited resources, typical levels of support, location and media / wider public profile of our (middle-ranking) club.

Though i do think Gibbo might've been a bit less openly parochial in his search for SMs successor and at least gone for proven experience, even if only to avoid the current criticism being levied at him from the fans.

Posted by: patrick steele  | January 1, 2008 10:11 PM

Neil M wrote...

If Boro ARE looking to involve the fans like you say I just hope it is a genuine new partnership in which we paying punters have a real say because a cack-handed attempt just for spin will backfire and make people even more cynical.

A little birdie from the Twelvth Man told me MFC are planning a big customer survey to find out exactly why fans have been unhappy. That strikes me as a waste of money because they could just read on here and the Boro message boards (when they are working.)

If they do they must make sure it isnt just asking questions on the web site and programme and "official" supporters because that will just get the views of the ra-ra tendency.

They need to listen to former season tickets, the teenagers who don't go, the lads who are in the pubs watching in the pubs on saturday watching al jazeera because they are the ones we need back.

I think they should have meetings in the big clubs in Boro, Stockton, Billog, Redcar, and further afield like Thirsk and Sedgefield, rally people about, get them to meet Southgate and Gibbo and fill in the questionaires on the spot.

On the band I am for it but would like to see whatever design is chosen be kept for two years because there is no other club that changes home and away every year like Boro does.

Sorry this post is so long. Keep up the good work AV. You are starting to get through to them now.

Happy New Year to all bloggers.

Posted by: Neil M  | January 1, 2008 10:16 PM

Ste Mac wrote...

Patrick Steele - "Ste Mac, get over it".

That is the attitude that comes out of the club. Get over it. Very dissmissive of an issue which still rankles with a lot of supporters and is still given as a reason why people have walked away.

When the most loyal long standing customers (which is what the S and T Red Bookers were) get a kick in the teeth like that it is very hard to get over, especially when you have been to EVERY UEFA Cup match, even the ones at home the glory hunters couldn't be bothered about.

It is harder still to get over the fact that the club ticket offsenior club official swore at me and my wife when we went down to find absolute chaos at the ground that no-one had a clue how to handle.

And it is very, very hard to get over the fact that I know people who were NOT S or T who got tickets through the club - some because their applications were in the same envelope as people who were, some because they know people who work for companies that have boxes (some given more tickets than the number of seats in those boxes, a lot of those fairly recent box holders and by no definition equivilent with S and T) and one because he lives next door to a young lad at the Academy.

No one is questioning that there weren't enough tickets to go round and there were always going to be losers but you expect something as important as that to be done fairly and openly and not in a scramble behind closed doors.

I bought a £300 ticket (marked Slovakian FA) in Eindhoven - but to pay for it I wrapped in my Red Book. I only got to a handful of games a season now. I know quite a few others who are the same.

There has never been an apology, an explanation or any public sign that Boro learned any lessons from the ticketing for Eindhoven, or even accept that they may have any culpability for it at all.

Until they do I won't buy a season ticket that they promise gives priority for big games because I dont believe it.

**AV writes: This is clearly an issue that still hurts for many people. I believe the club do understand that the public perception of the ticketing has contributed to their failure to capitalise on what should have been an Eindhoven PR dividend. What they can do to put the genie back in the bottle though I don't really know.

Maybe the new era of openness will see a new smart card based loyalty system that gives points to those who go to cup games and away games. That would have given those who had gone to Xanthi and Basel and Rome an advantage when it came to final tickets.

It is worth thinking about. The technology is now in place.



Posted by: Ste Mac  | January 2, 2008 11:43 AM

paul hart wrote...

re: patrick steele's comments...

Life's too short not to, from time to time reappraise your situation...

I was not just a season ticket holder from the last year at Ayresome; I'd also been going on a regular basis since a 0-0 draw with Leeds circa 1975...

Nevertheless, fans should not be blind sheep - if we are, we'll get what we deserve - a club plodding along, ticking over and taking our money. Why should I continue to pay £500 plus away games plus cup games plus shirts etc... to subsidise some MFC employees who are either not good enough, or worse, don't care...

And I've not become an armchair fan Patrick, that's the point, I've lost 95% interest in the Boro, full stop...

I could watch the games, home and away, at my local - but, and after 33 years support, I'm just not bothered...

If you cease to care enough about somebody for year after year, and just take, take, take... Don't be suprised one morning when they tell you to sod off!!!

Posted by: paul hart  | January 2, 2008 11:44 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

Different year - same old Boro.

With the results around us - and with some in the crowd doubtless responding to the first of the ticket initiatives - we could have built a nice little cushion with a win and some feel good factor to start the New Year. Even a draw would have been acceptable

This against an Everton side ravaged by injuries and suspensions to players who have been key to them - although, admittedly they can call on a hugely better quality of second string than we can. And they've got a manager who knows what he's doing.

For those who think Gate learns anything, take a look at his selections for the game yesterday

The Boat not even in the 16 despite being fully fit when at least 2 of his picks in the 16 weren't on his own admission.

Picking Rocky and Arca together - a no-no against all but the least combative and quick midfields - in the middle of a 4 in midfield when they are going to play a 5 with at least 2 and probably 3 grafters in there.

Continuing with Simba up front when he offers less than nothing.

If he wanted to stay with what we'd had against Pompey - as he's said - then surely The Boat or Catts was the logical choice to replace Shawky to give us a better balanced 4.

The other alternative would have been to withdraw Tuncay slightly on the right of a five as Everton did with Johnson and McFadden and play O'Neil more in the centre with Hutchinson up front rather than Lee. This would at least have matched them up. Absolutely, continuingly and shockingly naive, clueless and inept.

It's why other teams have blips whereas blip (the occasional win or draw) is our normal modus operandi, why the mistakes keep being repeated with monotonous regularity with others added and why the successes come like a bolt from the blue and disappear just as quickly.

His post match interviews have now gone from 'rabbit in a tank top in the headlights' to 'sullen teenager'. Yesterday's was the equivalent of a shrug of the shoulders which translates as everything from 'what else do you expect' to 'what's it got to do with me'.

The truth is he's right, of course. It isn't anything to do with him because the players don't believe him either and, if they're motivated at all it's self-motivation. Which is why, as we've often said, the performance is determined by which Boro gets off the team coach.

He also talked about retaining the player's enthusiasm in the face of continuing home defeats - how does he expect to rebuild the enthusiasm of the fans? He's giving the new fans-facing guy a hell of a handicap to overcome.

He says he's now banned the team from talking about getting in re-inforcements because we might not get any. The fact that he's had to shows that the squad knows what's needed - even if he doesn't. And it's not Hulse or Maynard - or indeed any of the rest of the dross floating round the second strings of various European leagues.

On his track record of selecting strikers, though, you'd understand Gibbo and The Count not wanting to give him more money to waste.

The answer to that, though, is to get rid of the manager and coaches and buy a striker or two.

Posted by: John Powls  | January 2, 2008 12:13 PM

Trotter wrote...

Knives back out again after one defeat. Is it any wonder Boro can't plan for the long term when people react like that.

Boro were easily the best team for an hour yesterday, played some excellent pass and move stuff through the middle, Woody was brilliant at the back. Stewy had one cleared off the line, Tuncay should have had a penalty and Howard made a brilliant save from O'Neil.

What cost us was the lack of a finisher - something Everton had - but we knew that before kick-off. We've known if for months. There's no point wetting your knickers about it every game as if Southgate and Gibson is going to magic up Henry or Berbatov.

We need to stick with the team no matter what. Whatever 11 is out there need our support, win or lose.

If they get a striker in (or get Mido fit and firing on all cylinders)(or both) this team has real potential.

We are a far better team that the dross down at the bottom and if we can play like we did yesterday but add a cutting edge we will score a lot of goals.

I for one am not worried about this season or the future. I think we are very close to being a decent side that will be good to watch. Bring it on.

Posted by: Trotter  | January 2, 2008 12:32 PM

Score Draw wrote...

"NEW YEAR, new era of openness, communication and engagement .... ." Yeah very good, lovely.

I'm baffled by the amount of emotion people spend on the 'white band', the 'badge' the distribution policy of the 'home kit'. I must be wired up differently because I think the badge is 'good' the strip with or without band is 'good' and it would have to incorporate a swastika or something like that for me to get as worked up as some Boro fans.

In the consultation process they should have a "who cares" button. However I would love to be consulted on the potential signing of Ameobi, Hulse, Vassel where I would press the "over my dead body" button.

By the way did you see my favourite player trying to stop the two shots yesterday ? Whenever I see him 'diving' to try and stop a shot I feel the urge to shout "Timberrrhh "

There were some puzzling selections as well. What is it with the captains armband? One day its Gary O'Neil, then its Arca ..Couldn't we vote on it? I'd go for Woodgate or O'Neil or Pogatetz.

Posted by: Score Draw  | January 2, 2008 12:42 PM

John Powls wrote...

Trotter

Would that it were one defeat. And my comments, for one, aren't just sparked by yesterday. That was but one shoddy example from many.

I've been just as positive when given the opportunity to be but the opportunities this season and last have been precious few.

I agree that we have more potential than the teams around us and that, of course, we lack strikers.

But that's the problem.

Turning potential into delivery at the level of our capability on a reasonably regular basis and buying the right players are what you pay a manager and coaches for.

Posted by: John Powls  | January 2, 2008 12:46 PM

stockton red wrote...

John Powls I agree with your comments about the midfield combination being wrong but you must be having a laugh wanting to start Hutchinson.

DGL is no good for the Premier League we all know that. In the first half however at least he did contrbute and held the ball up well several times.

Hutchinson will end up at Darlington if he is lucky or more probably non league. He does not have a single attribute that I have seen to suggest an ability at this level.

It all goes back to AV's last blog about a lack of cutting edge. We must find one otherwise a continued struggle is inevitable whether you have got Southgate , Mourinho or anybody else in charge for that matter.

Oh and by the way can somebody tell me why Schwarzer is still in the team? He rarely makes a save of any significance and I think you would find it hard to find a goalie in any division who's distribution and kicking are worse.

Posted by: stockton red  | January 2, 2008 12:56 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

So that’s yet another festive program ‘safely’ out of the way – it has delivered us 3 points from 12 and a few more injuries and according to Southgate a tired bunch of players.

All in all perfect preparation for the game against Bristol City this weekend – arguably our most important game, if we’re going to have anything at all to look forward to this season,.

So has Southgate got any closer to becoming convincing as Boro manager? He only seems secure because of Gibson’s ‘back the manager regardless’ policy and not because he has ascended any further up that learning curve he keeps hanging on to.

Then again, look at Spurs: they installed one of the best managers in Europe who can call on one of the best group of strikers in the league and a decent creative midfield – in terms of results they’ve barely done much better (though obviously more exciting to watch).

So I’ll pose the questions:

Would Southgate have done better with their squad?

OR

Would Boro have done better with Ramos in charge?

Posted by: Werdermouth  | January 2, 2008 2:51 PM

James Emmerson wrote...

It is somewhat ironic that Allardyce has come in for so much stick...The Mags have 26 pts, scored 27 goals with seven wins. Compare this with the appalling return Southgate has inspired Boro to in the same period and even GS must be amazed at how he's escaped a slating in the national press.

As others have said, all the tinkering round the edges will not encourage the missing thousands back until the highly paid and pampered players and backroom staff show some determination to get the club out of the near-continual 'one step forward, two steps back' league form that is our trademark.

Alex Ferguson said the other day that when Newcastle beat them 5-0 it was actually the worse thing that happened to the Mags, because the fans set that as the standard and ever since it's been a disappointment.

Could it not be true of Boro that winning something and getting somewhere could do the same for us unless the real problem (an under performing team and an out of his depth manager who thinks relegation battles don't start until there's only six games to go in a season) is addressed?

Posted by: James Emmerson  | January 2, 2008 2:55 PM

mickemmo wrote...

GREAT BLOG AV.. ONE THING ALWAYS MAKES ME WONDER, WE HAVE 2 OF THE MOST HIGH PROFILE PLAYERS FROM EGYPT, LDG FROM ASIA AND THE LEGEND THAT WILL BE FROM TURKEY - HOW MANY OF THEIR FANS WANT TO BE WEARING BORO SHIRTS?

MILLIONS OF POUNDS IN UNTAPPED REVENUE,ARE WE SO SHORT SIGHTED TO NOT OPEN BORO SHOPS WORLDWIDE? MAN UTD DO IT. SMALL TOWN SMALL MENTALITY!

LOVE THE BORO WIN ONE LOSE ONE.. WILL KEEP US UP, QUALITY GOAL SCORER IS THE MISSING LINK. I LIKE LITA OR MCFADDEN, DEFOE LOVES THE BIG SMOKE NIGHTLIFE NO CHANCE WITH HIM

Posted by: mickemmo  | January 2, 2008 5:27 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

White band, badges, ticketing fiasco's, radio commentary, not bothered about season ticket holders/sales or simply the appointment of Gareth and the subsequent signings, team selections and tactics.

The Yak succinctly summed up all of our frustrations (of which ironically he was a part) with a quote in todays Guardian, "I joined Everton because they had more ambition. We are fighting to finish in the top six and to get into Europe as well as for cup trophies but I think that, at the moment and with no disrespect to their players, Boro are not that ambitious. That is why I had to leave."

He then went on to say "Before I left Portsmouth to join Middlesbrough, I looked at Middlesbrough and saw they had ambition but I don't think the ambition is there anymore."

Nuff said!

A lack of ambition, put very simply, that is why there are 10,000 empty seats and why badges, kits, goal music and DGL have become a distraction for misplaced venting of frustration.

Posted by: Redcar Red  | January 2, 2008 9:15 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

James Emmerson

I think you're missing the point about the Barcodes. The reason Allardyce is getting stick from the fans (and the media is continually stirring it up, of course) is because all the Geordies live in some cloud cuckoo land with their sad delusion that they're a big club.

And the media persists in giving them attention as if they are a big club. They don't give a toss about so-called smaller clubs like Boro, Bolton, Blackburn, Wigan - that's why GS isn't getting the stick Allardyce gets.

Interesting that the media are now talking about Berbatov going to a "big club" - I wish they'd take the same attitude to our trophy-challenged neighbours up the road - but no, the national media continue to treat the Geordies like a sleeping giant just waiting to win something significant.

But we all know they're a "big" club that hasn't won anything since 1969. Oh yes, they've finished second in the Prem, but who remembers anyone who finishes second? My bet is they'd swop their recent years' haul of trophies / Cup Final appearances for ours.

And call it chip on the shoulder if you like, but I continue to delight at every self-imposed disaster that befalls the self-important bustard. Joey Barton and another home defeat by Man City are just the latest in a long line of hilarious episodes.

And after all, the Geordies are still at home watching the Bill.....

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | January 2, 2008 11:58 PM

gt wrote...

I think its fair to say its getting harder to compete in the Prem when you have to be fiscally responsable and I certainly dont want Gibbo to sell the farm in order to satisfy a minority of fickle fans (we can all be that).

I hope if we do go down that financially we can afford to keep this squad together (too good for the Championship). I believe it will regain its confidance both on the field and off.

If we had to sell 5-6 players it would put us back 10 years. Try getting decent players to join knowing you couldnt compete even if you get promotion. Just think if Downing, Woodgate, Rocky, Huth, O'Neil, Arca, Tuncay where to leave because of their ambitions or fiscal reasons.

So lets realise its time to support the club in these so called bad times before the you know what hits the fan.

Note to GS: why does Yak look thinner, quicker and fitter?It wouldnt be because his boss isn't a nice guy would it? Start cracking the whip.

Posted by: gt  | January 3, 2008 7:12 AM

Mick wrote...

You can read the Yakubu interview here:

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_3018683,00.html

I'm sorry to say that he is right in some respects; Boro do seem to be a club that once had ambition, but now are not so ambitious.

Posted by: Mick  | January 3, 2008 9:11 AM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - I don't know if you can post this, prehaps you can change it if it is libelous.

I saw a mate at the Everton game. He told me that his mate is very close to Boateng. Allegedly George told him that the club now has a total lack of ambition.

If our January transfer target is Rob Hulse then George's concerns are obviously true.

**AV writes: I'm not sure it is libelous but in my experience the old 'friend of a friend' line is usually either mischievous or groundless.

Posted by: Never Happy  | January 3, 2008 9:22 AM

Nigel wrote...

JP - I have to disagree strongly with part of your analysis of the Everton match.

At no stage in the game were Rocky and Arca over run in midfield. The Boro midfield held its own comfortably all match. Rocky is the future The Boat i am afraid is the past, GS has this right.

We lost the game because despite plenty of possesion and commitment we had no cutting edge up front. DGL clearly not up to it however he only played half the game, when Hutchinson came on nothing changed. The answer to the striker problem does not lie within the current squad.

Boro were beaten by a better team who defended for 45 minutes, took their opportunity when it came and were then gifted a second.

If Tuncay or O'Neil had scored at the start of the second half when the chance arose we may have won, certainly a point would have been on the cards.

What I noticed about the match was the level of support GS is getting from the fans, which was great to hear. It may have been a mistake by SG to appoint an inexperienced man but we are where we are and sacking him is a negative step.

With regard to the thread, Boro certainly do appear to be starting to listen to the fans, the poll on next seasons shirt is a good start, but it is clearly marketed as a poll for next season only. The club is not asking for a mandate to make the band permanent which is disappointing, it would be such an easy way of differentiating Boro from all other teams that play in red on a permanent basis.

The more Boro listen to the fans the better. There were 27000 there against Everton, achieving 30000 per home match regularly should not be that difficult to achieve.

With no strikers brought in this January I believe we will survive...just. If we buy a half decent striker it may just give us a second half of the season which is a little more comfortable than the first, but the striker problem will not be solved properly until the summer.

Posted by: Nigel  | January 3, 2008 10:38 AM

stockton red wrote...

Yakubu and his type make me sick.Did he communicate his desire to leave at the end of the season to the manager? NO. Did he put in a transfer request? NO.

He downed tools on the pitch at Wigan just before the transfer deadline forcing the clubs hand and making sure he and his advisors got their cut of the transfer fee which he would have lost if he had asked for a move.

How people cant see through these remarks it I dont know.

Posted by: stockton red  | January 3, 2008 12:17 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Regarding the Boro strip , colours that resemble bile and vomit should be avoided so the away kit is a mess.

The home strip however I have no problem with and it is up to the manager to start associating the new strip with victory by getting consistency out of his players.

Werdermouth, regarding Spurs or Boro options lets hope Spurs dont sell Berbatov to a bigger club and come in for Tuncay. The real point I am making is that we could get much more out of Tuncay if we had someone great upfront like Robby Keane with him - holding the ball up , great at setting goals up splitting defences and making space for his strike partner and a great finisher himself too - Crumbs we had Viduka who falls into that category .

If Tuncay gets injured we will slide deeper down the prem. Dong gook looked better recently but we must buy a decent Striker NOW!

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | January 3, 2008 1:37 PM

John Breckon wrote...

I really think the state of MFC is over analysed. Boro for the majority of matches play football with a team of players who appear (in the main) to be uninterested, lacking in any sort of physical presence(ie too damm small) and without a lot of fight in their bellies.

They turn up at the Riverside in their massive cars, play like you know what, get in their cars and leave. It appears to matter not to them if they win or get beat they pick up massive money and live in a bubble which is so far removed from reality its untrue.

The fans on the other hand expect more from these millionaire players like LDG, the Big Aussie Shopper, Tuncay etc and have simply lost patience with their abject performances.

Its not about shirts, socks, marketing, 12th Man visits to Hurworth its about passion, pace and performances and the Riverside faithful see precious little of it.

Sadly its not just Boro there are other prem clubs in a similar situation.

My solution appoint a manager with some fire in his belly who is a football manager not someone who is described as a coach.

Posted by: John Breckon  | January 3, 2008 1:47 PM

mark j wrote...

The away strip is the colour of vom and needs changing and the home strip is fine and would look better if worn by a quality striker to partner the beautiful Tuncay whos finishes are keeping us out of relegation.

More Geordie blunders please, comedy at its best. I would love to finish above them so come on Gibbo , blow some dough !

Opposition teams dont think we can score so they pile down onto our defence and eventually score. We desperately need more of a goal threat [ 2 strikers]

Posted by: mark j  | January 3, 2008 2:06 PM

Nigel wrote...

I see from the Gazette that The Boat may be on his way. No surprise there other than the timing, I assumed he'd be gone in the Summer. He's been a terrific player for Boro but his form over the past season and a half has been off the pace.

As for Yak's comments about Boro lacking ambition, well he would say that wouldn't he? He's hardly going to say I left because I was offered shed load of cash is he? Boro may or may not lack ambition but one thing is for certain anything said by an ex-player should be read with a health warning.

Posted by: Nigel  | January 3, 2008 3:02 PM

richardw wrote...

i live in the south now. Just been up for christmas with my family and called into the club shop the day after the Everton game.

They changed the little lads shirt for a new one because it had a fault when we hadnt even noticed, even putting his name on the back then i asked on reception if he could have a look at the pitch (constant where is the grass questions from a 5yr old) and we where given a tour of the ground changing rooms and all when it was obvious they were all busy after the game.

This has done more to cement the club with my son than all the hours of badgering Ive done.

So lets just say the club arent as bad as a lot of people are saying and the crowds will come back when we start winning. Thats why teams get bigger crowds at the top of the championship than when they are bottom of the prem.

All the rest is a smokescreen if we start winning and are 5th in the league they will come!!

Posted by: richardw  | January 3, 2008 5:13 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

Stockton Red/Nigel:

Of course a departed player would say something derogatory and negative and I would be the first to take such comments with a pinch of salt.

But look at the facts, the Yak joined us when we were in Europe, when he had JFH and the Duke competing with him for a start in the front line and Riverside Premiership gates 20% bigger than today. All fact!

Fast forward to today. Our ambition has led to the recruitment of the Premiership's most inexperienced manager, totally disenchanted and alienated supporters and instead of JFH, Duke and the Yak we have "Can't score", "Might score" (at last he has started to) and "Won't score".

Sometimes you have to remove the rose tinted specs and take it on the chin, alternatively please tell me (and Yak) where our ambition has gone?

Posted by: Redcar Red  | January 3, 2008 8:48 PM

scoredraw wrote...

Yakubu left for money just like Viduka. Ambition my butt. Both of them are too selfish to be considered ambitious.

"Ambitious" - you have to laugh don't you ? It's not something that springs to mind when you recall him wandering around for months a complete goal free zone.
If I was playing that word association game and the psychiatrist said "Yakubu" I'd shout "anorexia"

However I'll be tuning in to the African Nations Cup because back there if you don't appear to be trying your hardest those African folks throw more than their 'red book' at you. You can end up up on the wrong end of a firearm.

I'll be putting my voodoo curse on him just like I did with all those who leave with rancour or ungraciously like Zeige, Juninho, Ravenelli, Viduka, Zenden. Yes another dose of 'Malaria' will do him the world of good.

Posted by: scoredraw  | January 4, 2008 12:10 AM

mohd alan wrote...

AV

Had a similar experience to Richardw above.

Back in the Boro for a few days on holiday from S.E. Asia, called in the Boro shop and bought a whole load of stuff including a kit and shorts for my eight year old. Went to go out of the door and the alarm went off, due to a tag not being removed from one item.

Got back to the hotel and found no shorts in the bag. Went back to the shop next day and expained what had happened, I could not explain what had happened to the shorts, but mentioned the incident on leaving the shop. The manageress was most sympathetic and replaced the shorts, no questions asked.

I for one do not see too much wrong with the club gear or strip. Yes bring back the white band, but remember we did play originally in red shirts and white shorts.

Regards

Posted by: mohd alan  | January 4, 2008 12:25 AM

Danny wrote...

Steve Gibson, Keith Lamb...do you read this blog???

Get Louis Van Gaal at whatever cost and quickly.

Swallow your pride, admit it was an error appointing him and move on, Gareth Southgate isn't the answer.

Ambition, long gone are the days when we would look and hope for a top six finish and a cup semi-final or two. We seem to be another Wigan or Birmingham satisfied with finishing 17th in the Premier League....sad but true!

Posted by: Danny  | January 4, 2008 9:10 AM

tonyblack wrote...

Scoredraw / Stockton Red

Guys, you have a serious problem.

For starters you have no idea as to the goings on behind the scenes at clubs and so you simply cannot accuse people without knowing the full facts.

Unless you have a short or selective memory Score Draw, Juni was left to rot into the reserves in the hope that he would lose his mind and leave, which he did.

Just as has happened with Mendieta.

MFC has a unique way of treating players. When you're flavour of the month you're one of the gang and when you're not you're thrown into the reserves.

Zenden went to play for the mighty Liverpool and a Champions League Final. Who wouldn't have ?

Why would he have stayed ? Would you ?

I'm sure if I offered you guys double or treble of your weekly wage that you would come and work for me and that your " loyalty " would go out the window.

" scoredraw wrote...

Yakubu left for money just like Viduka. Ambition my butt. Both of them are too selfish to be considered ambitious.... "

Sorry, but where is Woodies name in all of this ? What exactly did he come here for? And where is his ambition exactly ?

" "Ambitious" - you have to laugh don't you ? It's not something that springs to mind when you recall him wandering around for months a complete goal free zone. "

I absolutely agree here though. But you must ALSO direct your fire at bloody SG and his sidekick for allowing this to happen as they simply didn't let him rot on the bench.

I'm not for one moment saying that everything you guys say is wrong as I fully understand your frustrations. All I seek to point out is that there are often two sides to every story and that we as fans only get to hear the clubs side.

Viduka wanted his contract sorted out ages ago and Keith Lamb waited until the last minute and his hand came up as a busted flush.

Perhaps if Viduka would have had his contract sorted sooner then he would have stayed and perhaps Yak would also have.

I was never a big fan of the Yaks as I just don't like lazy players or players who spit their dummy out, as he did, and just don't play. Like you, I think that this is an absolute disgrace as he still picked up his massive wages every week.

So there is much we do agree on.

But you simply cannot deny the fact that he is right about the clubs lack of ambition as he is only saying what the majority are saying in here each week. The rest of his comments were actulally rather positive.

Downing says on the radio that his contract has been in negotiation for two years now. TWO YEARS !

Something is amiss...

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | January 4, 2008 10:06 AM

patrick steele wrote...

Redcar Red

Crowds were already falling before Yak signed for us.

Perhaps ambition has to be tailored to reflect reality otherwise it's not sustainable.

Posted by: patrick steele  | January 4, 2008 11:04 AM

scoredraw wrote...

Tony Black :
Nice to hear from you.

When a player leaves he should if possible leave gracefully especially if they have been treated as well as Yakubu, Viduka, Hasslebaink, Zeige, Zenden, Ravenelli, Juninho .....

* Regarding Juninho I was referring to the fact that he left (deserted, sought pastures new, developed his career ....) when we got relegated. He's no saint in my eyes but a great Boro player.

* I have nothing against Mendiata but the only reason he's still here is because no one else will give him more money. He's not exactly knocking back offers from Real Madrid or Seville is he ? Too his credit he's behaving professionally with quiet dignity.

* To his credit I have yet to hear Woodgate criticise any of his previous clubs because no doubt he's grateful for the opportunities and wages that come with being a top class footballer.

* Zenden? I found particularly annoying because I thought he was rubbish (like many Dutch players of his generation). Outrageously overrated and lucky to join Liverpool and win the Champions league. He's no right to criticise the Boro.

* Viduka, Yakubu, Hasslebaink have never given a damn about the Boro. It was always a Gravy Train to them. They are amongst the least ambitious players (in a footballing sense) that I have ever seen. Consequently they will be rich but will never be great players.

* Like the players in question you use a range of terms - "contract sorted out", "ambitious". All euphemisms for MORE MONEY.

If as you say they are only doing what comes naturally i.e moving on to better clubs, why do they feel it necessary to criticise the club which treated them very well ?

They don't give a damn about the Boro, they never have it shows in their body language (Juninho excepted). Money is the only motivator. They say "I want to play in the Europe, The Champion League" . What tosh. They want more money !!!

They have so little dignity and integrity that when the club says they can't offer them 60,000 a week they trot out the same old gags, "more ambitious club" "want to play in Europe".

There is nothing wrong with players wanting a move, it can refresh a player. I'd love to see Stewart Downing playing for one of the great clubs like Arsenal or Man Utd. I was pleased and proud when Woodgate joined Madrid.

I'm not saying the Boro are above criticism, they treated Danny Mills very poorly, they treat some home grown players poorly - but not Viduka, Hasslebaink and Yakubu.

When you leave you owe it to all supporters to try to leave with dignity and style. If you want a role model who exemplifies dignity and style try looking a Henrik Larsson - a genuine legend.

Got to get back to my voodoo doll of Yak - has anyone got any rusty knitting needles ?


Posted by: scoredraw  | January 4, 2008 11:31 AM

stockton red wrote...

Redcar red/ danny.

You seem to be unable to see the difference between lack of ambition and lack of money. Do you seriously think that if Steve Gibson had the wealth of Abramovich we would not be showing ambition[ spending money] as you call it?

A few years ago Steve Gibson was quite a big hitter in football. Now after all the billionaire takeovers he is by comparison small fry. Do you seriously think that if one of the worlds richest men came to him and said he wanted to have a bit of fun investing heavily in the team that he would say no?!!!

The endless discussion about the manager is pointless.If it were my business I would not have put a newly retired player in charge last year but it is clear SG has faith and that GS will remain at the helm at least in the immediate future.

In any case what big name would be interested if he was told there were coppers available for new players?

I find it quite ironic that a number of Geordies would quite happily give Shearer the job without a single days managerial experience and that the mackems have been incredibly forgiving of Keanes waste of huge funds in the summer. Fat Sam has all the experience in the world. Do you think he's doing a good job?

Posted by: stockton red  | January 4, 2008 1:09 PM

Score Draw wrote...

With a bit of luck the meetings with Bristol City last year will focus the mind and the lads won't have an ounce of complacency when they take the field tomorrow.

We need to keep an eye on Darren Byfield I saw him play for Gillingham once - 'nice touch', calm and doesn't panic. It'll be interesting to see him play against premiership players


Posted by: Score Draw  | January 4, 2008 2:14 PM

Peter Mac wrote...

I agree with Yakubu's recent claim. When we reached the UEFA cup final, and I was there, it should have been a stepping stone for us to becoming a top six side, but Steve Gibson made a major mistake in appointing Southgate when McClaren left. We should have appointed a very experienced manager to take us to the next level.

I didn't renew my season ticket because of the appointment and I haven't been back to the Riverside since, even though I supported Boro for forty three consecutive years. Do I regret that decision now, NO CHANCE!

When you lose two quality strikers like Yakubu and Viduka the only way to go is backwards if they are not replaced and that is exactly what is happening.

I hear people stating that Southgate is doing a good job! How when it was his responsibility to replace those players with adequate replacements? Who's fault is it if the Boro go down because of a lack of scoring important goals? it's got to be Southgate's fault.

The supporters must be sick and tired of seeing or reading about the missed chances, I know I am.

If it is not the managers fault then it has to Steve Gibsons fault. Yes I know he has always made good decisions in the past and he can do no wrong in Boro supporters eyes, but he may have made a mistake this time.

Or has he allowed the Boro to get over committed with the £37M to £40M spend on the Rockcliffe Park hotel and associated golf course to the detriment of Boro's spending power and therefore status in the Premier League?

They say back in the bad old Boro days that Amer's Gym and Training establishment was the start of his decline at the club, let us all hope and pray that Gibson's Rockcliffe Park hotel and golf course is not the start of his decline!

One thing I do know for certain is that if the Boro fail to land a reasonable goal scorer in the January transfer window then we will be very close to, or in fact be relegated at the end of this season.

Gibson/Lamb/Southgate must pull something out of the bag in this transfer window. If they don't and the players that are reputed to be wanted by other clubs are allowed to leave without being adequately replaced, then they all are guilty of building a squad with the Championship in mind.

Get your finger out Boro management before it's too late!

**AV writes: Club chiefs insist that not one penny of the football club budget is being spent on the new Hurworth complex.

Posted by: Peter Mac  | January 4, 2008 3:00 PM

John Powls wrote...

stockton red - Fat Sam doing a good job? Well, no - and aren't The Barcodes fans letting him know that.

But the table doesn't lie - he's doing six points and five places better than Gate who's had a year longer to get things his way.

On Hutchinson - I've seen him play a few times now, admittedly mostly parts of games. I don't see him being anything like a long term solution but he's done OK. I was just making the point that he (anyone/thing) is better than Simba and that he's done something that Simba hasn't done - scored a Prem goal, which he took really well.

Glad you agree about the centre of midfield - perhaps you can explain to Nigel.

Nigel - I wasn't claiming that The Boat particularly was the answer in midfield; he's not, you're right, the time has come and if he can find a club he can move on or he can stay and be a bench player.

All I was saying was that I don't see Arca and Rocky as a good partnership in the centre of a midfield four. They're too alike for me and on the times I have seen them play together have not complimented each other but more have compounded their similar weaknesses.

Either is OK paired with someone else - as you know I think that someone should be Gary O'Neil.

For preference I'd choose Arca at the moment, partly because his left-footedness gives us better balance and partly because he is, I think, playing better at the moment and offers a better chance of a killer pass into a Tuncay run.

But I know I'll never convince you that Rocky isn't nature's gift. Opinions are what it's all about.

And on The Yak and what he said - Redcar Red is right. He was a pillock and ill advised to say it but we all know he was right. Everything that MFC has done since Eindhoven has been evidencing lack of ambition and that continues.

And, stockton red, ambition isn't just about money - it's an outlook, an attitude and a way of doing things.

Posted by: John Powls  | January 4, 2008 4:56 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

Stockton Red I grew up in probably one of the most deprived areas of Teesside (Grangetown) and went to school in Southbank.

I had ambition but my family had zilch in the bank, that lack of finance did not stop, block or hinder my ambition.

I'm now fortunate to live in a nice house in a nice area with a very well paid job all earned through honest graft and most important of all my ambition.

Cash certainly helps to make things easier in any walk of life but does not guarantee success. Having ambition, grafting and striving towards your goals has nothing to do with spending cash. Its the apparent lack of ambition both on and off the Riverside pitch which is causing concern not the lack of spending.

Patrick Steele I fully agree that you have to tailor things to what you can afford but as described above to Stockton Red having and showing ambition is not down to merely splashing the cash. I could cite all sorts of examples already debated in great detail over previous months on here which have disillusioned both fans and players alike.

Now we have Downing revealing he has been in "talks" for 2 years, call that ambition? You can't say that 2 years ago when we were at the height of the clubs success we were staring at bankruptcy, doom and despondency, added to which if we are to believe Sir Steve we must have saved a fortune by not agreeing to the Dukes wage demands of most of the seasons gate money so surely we can afford Stewy's demands or maybe the club just doesn't want to?

Without ambition, support and the gates will continue to fall and that sadly may become a self fulfilling prophecy, one that isn't to far removed from 1986.


Posted by: Redcar Red  | January 4, 2008 8:48 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Hi Score Draw,

your comments much of the time just don't bear out the facts.

" Zenden? I found particularly annoying because I thought he was rubbish (like many Dutch players of his generation). Outrageously overrated and lucky to join Liverpool and win the Champions league. He's no right to criticise the Boro. "

The whole Zenden thing is just a myth. In the Boro match day programme he was nothing but very complimentary and said that the Carling Cup Win was his greatest ever achievement.

Yet you say he was critical of the Boro. Please can you produce 1 quote to substantiate this.

Over rated ? The fans DIDN'T think so when they voted him player of the season, did they ?

" Viduka, Yakubu, Hasslebaink have never given a damn about the Boro. It was always a Gravy Train to them. They are amongst the least ambitious players (in a footballing sense) that I have ever seen. Consequently they will be rich but will never be great players. "

Your comments about Woody are very biased indeed. He came for the reported 90k a week and has clearly no real ambition as coming to us was only ever a soft option, if we can be honest. But I don't see you include this " home grown lad " in any of your stinging attacks.

Madrid for Middlesbrough. Where exactly is the ambition in that move? Come oe mate, let's have a bit of honesty here.

Yak DID NOT criticise the club. He merely pointed out why he left and he was complimentary in the rest of what he said. Whatever you think about money you just cannot deny that he was right and that this was a fair statement of the facts.

" I have nothing against Mendiata but the only reason he's still here is because no one else will give him more money... " How do you know this ? You assume...

I also find the fact that you think that players SHOULD give a damn about clubs very odd indeed. Mendi is surplus to requirements and so the club rightly want shot of him, so I'm afraid that it works both ways and that this is how it should be.

Again, you're just not being fair.

Why would someone like Juni want to stay and play in the first division?

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with you and it does seem that you have a very large chip on your shoulder because these guys earn lots of money and want even more.

Is it their fault that people like Abramovich have nothing better to do with their money than to indulge their every whim ?

I just wish someone would offer me this kind of money. If someone else offered me even more I'd be off like a shot as you need to earn while your in demand.

Ask AV if he would go to work down the road at the Echo if they offered him two or three times his wages. I think that the cloud of smoke he'd leave in his wake would choke us all to death.

I am not defending all these players all of the way as I do understand much of your feeling, as like you, I just don't know the full story. But I do know that I will defend the players that are wrongly slated, a la Zenden, as you have just done when they simply don't deserve to be.

TB

**AV writes: For two or three times the wages I'd have to think about it. It could be my last big move. It would depend on whether the Gazette matched my ambitions.

Posted by: tonyblack  | January 4, 2008 9:57 PM

chris wrote...

You gone on holiday vic or just lazy? :)

Anyway let Boateng go he's old and there's plenty of cover...and save the wage....he is really excess to requirements. we need a a guy who can hit the barn door remember....

**AV writes: Yes, I've been on holiday. And I'm lazy. But I'm back now and normal service is resumed.

Posted by: chris  | January 4, 2008 10:08 PM

Richard wrote...

Patrick Steele: A short post, but a big reflective message!!.........

"Perhaps ambition has to be tailored to reflect reality otherwise it's not sustainable."

I’d like to expand a bit on what I think your post implies, but rather than simply accept the “current reality”, use it to throw out a challenge to MFC…………..

Before I renew MY season ticket, I want Steve Gibson and his Senior Management group at MFC to define EXACTLY what their ambition is for MFC!!

I want to know what it is exactly that I am "investing" my reducing net disposable income in, before I decide whether I want to continue to be a stakeholder.

Like most football-attending people on Teesside, I'm not rich and I have some serious decisions to make about how I spend MY money. And I want to know what it is I'm buying into before I spend.

So come on Mr Gibson, Mr Lamb, Mr New Marketing Guy, Mr Southgate, answer this for the people of Teesside BEFORE THE END OF THE CURRENT SEASON.........

"What can Boro supporters realistically expect over the next few (1-5) years in terms of targets/goals that YOU and any other backers that you might be able to persuade to invest in the club, intend to FULLY FINANCIALLY SUPPORT AND ACHIEVE?

Because, unless you let us see the future through your eyes, we'll continue to draw the same conclusions as Yakubu, Xavier, and others who have left citing an atmosphere of resignation to mediocrity of Premier League achievement as the prevalent "smell" around the Riverside.

Let us not forget that it was Steve Gibson's money and support that brought Boro back from the dead all those years ago. But let's also acknowledge another wholly pertinent and fundamental fact.......

Since then, the Premiership has moved on and the financial stakes are much higher, fuelled by the media - Sky & Setanta in particular - by the Bosman Ruling, and by the opportunistic investment by foreign money in certain other competitive clubs, as the money men sniff returns and power-seekers sniff greater influence.

MFC and Steve Gibson's ability to "compete" in this changed environment would appear to have been seriously eroded. So "pushing on" after Eindhoven and the Carling Cup win hasn't been possible (even without the unwelcome complications of managerial discontinuity and staff change).

SO, what radical reforms are in your pipeline Mr Gibson?

Because tinkering at the edges of strip design, knocking the odd quid or two off youngsters tickets or asking fans how they like their chicken-burgers cremated isn't going to cut it with me I'm afraid.

And frankly I hope it won't cut it either with the majority of fans who DO have REAL ambition and dreams for FOOTBALLING ACHIEVEMENT at the Riverside!

I for one WILL support REAL ambition. But I won't support spin and hot air that isn't backed up by performance improvement and footballing RESULTS.

I started attending Boro matches regularly when I sniffed real ambition. It caught my imagination after years of “will I” or “won’t I”. Well at present I am. But if I don’t catch more than a whiff of it again very soon, then I won’t for much longer. If that makes me a Quisling in the eyes of “Boro ‘til I Die” Die-Hards, then tough! Live with it!

If Gibson and Mr New Marketing Man want a fan’s message to listen to……..then listen to this……….. Nothing breeds success like success! So, get your footballing act together and give us some back-to-back wins at the Riverside. Spend some money wisely and get the staff in so that we climb the table into European qualifying places!

If it takes a root and branch fundamental restructuring to enable us to compete - such as for example, merging with other local clubs to make a bigger club that’s more attractive to other supplementary investors - then fine. I’d support that!

But for Pete’s sake, take us all out of this aimless hovering around the brink of the drop zone type of season after season and set your stall out to put fire in the belly of Teessiders again – just as you appeared to do a number of years ago!

THAT FELT GOOD…………and that’s what I believe the additional fans who filled the Riverside for a few years bought into! NOT warmer pies, cooler beer and replica shirts with no loose threads!!

If you want them back, and if you want to keep the likes of me, you’d better find a way of firing up that “feelgood factor” all over again.

And it’ll take a lot of money to do it! Not fannying around with fan-appeasing and patronising frivolity. Fans will forgive all sorts - if the results are right. It’s when results are crap that they’ll find fault with trivia.

If we’d won the UEFA Cup and gone on again to qualify the following year and put in a strong performance in the league, would there still be such a song and dance still about ticket allocations? I seriously doubt it. It would have been forgotten as we continued to enjoy success on the field.

So, I implore MFC management not to take their eye off the ball and to focus on the biggest widescreen picture and to give Teesside back the aspirational highs of before. Do THAT and people are much more likely to return/ stay at The Riverside.

If that can’t be achieved, then the “reality” in Patrick Steele’s short but insightful post gives us all the alternative answer. What we do with it of course, is up to each of us, as individuals.

Posted by: Richard  | January 4, 2008 10:23 PM

stockton red wrote...

John powls and redcar red -I do take on board what you say about ambition.

It is my personal belief that Steve Gibsons ambition is as bright as ever-where I think mistakes have been made is that poor communication and lack of involvement with supporters have left us in the dark about what we are trying to achieve and how we are trying to go about it and as a result people feel that the club has lost contact with them.

Petty public slanging matches with former players are undignified and unnecessary and suggesting things are going to happen when they do not are clearly undermining a lot of belief amongst fans.

IT's a change of approach that is needed

Posted by: stockton red  | January 4, 2008 10:55 PM

Scoredraw wrote...

Tony Black:
The in depth textual analysis of my contributions is not much fun for the rest of the readers. You need to remember I'm firing off an e-mail based on my expert opinion it's not meant as Phd to be marked by an eminent professor.

My point in a nutshell is :

By all means go to another team and 'fill your boots' but don't make out you were forced out by the Boro's lack of ambition or that you are leaving because of some principled disagreement. It's about money, nothing else. They should leave quietly and gracefully and be eternally grateful for the fantastic living that the club and the people of Middlesbrough gave them.

Must get back to my voodoo doll. If the fat fella collapses in agony around 3:10 clutching his 'buster browns'- you know it's worked !

I'm thinking £10 on Arca to score first and into the hat no probs.

Posted by: Scoredraw  | January 5, 2008 12:42 PM

patrick steele wrote...

Richard

My underlying point is that the club have refocussed their ambitions to reflect changing commercial realities which are undermining the club's ability to compete in the PL, including falling attendances.

It has often been stated by the club that they would not allow a return to the 1986 situation and so they will not be overeaching themselves a la Ridsdale.

At the height of local interest the club talked about being confident of pulling in regular crowds of 35,000 and acted on this by expanding capacity. At the time this may have been realistic - given the club's catchment area it is, on the face of it, certainly feasible if the club is succesful and the team is good to watch.

But this reckons without the ingrained culture of apathy, pessimism, cynicisn and indifference and yes, the limited ambition which seems to describe a significant proportion of Teesside's indigenous population and is certainly in part responsible for what has happened since.

The falling gates during by far the club's most successful period sent a loud message to the club that continuing levels of support could not be relied upon and this must have been a kick in the nuts for Gibson in the circumstances. 21,000 against Sporting Lisbon in the QF stands out like a beacon in this respect.

Hence the club will cut its cloth accordingly and 'Teesside will get the team it can afford / deserves etc'.

**AV writes: It is hard to argue against any of that.


Posted by: patrick steele  | January 5, 2008 2:26 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Score Draw, your reply is just a cop out and you know it.

Much of what you said was just plain wrong and you shouldn't post if you don't want people to pick apart what you say.

I'm no professor, just joe public who has taken issue with what you wrote that's all.

Like I've said before, that's just my opinion and yours is yours, both are equally valid.

Your opinion centres all around the dollars, where as mine does not.

Zenden and Yakubu went to bigger clubs where they could / might have a chance at experiencing new things. If they got more money I'm sure that this was the icing on the cake.

Juni and others just didn't want to play in the 1st division and quite rightly left, who wouldn't have done ?

Yakubu was spot on and everyone with two seeing eyes is well aware of the fact that MFC has lost its drive and ambition in recent years and the fact that they have wheeled out a new PR guru to paper over the all too evident lack of ambition is just pathetic in the extreme.

On line polls about white bands ? PR videos ? What an absolute joke. Get in a PROPER manager with a PROPER team, win some games and play until you collapse every single game, even when all is lost and you will soon see people come back.

Paul Ince is a fool. GS was the wrong man for the job as we aren't some mickey mouse club and whilst he learns as he goes we all go into freefall with ever lower attendances and fans who have had enough of being taken for granted and treated as second rate.

It's time for Gibson to either really be ambitious or to go once and for all. As we are now we are adrfit and just going further out to sea.

Cheers.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | January 5, 2008 2:31 PM

mick gosney wrote...

It may have been touched on already but may I raise the point regarding the treatment of Boro Supporters arriving and departing in buses and cars.

The waiting after the game is absolutely horrendous. It's as if they don't want us to return. 10 years+ that stadium has been there and the transport in and out has not improved a great deal.

Posted by: mick gosney  | January 6, 2008 7:25 AM

score Draw wrote...

Lovely second goal. Good result.

All in all a great day for me because we managed to win while at the same time 'you know who' that feeble excuse of a player managed to demonstrate for all to see what a long streak he is.

When I watch the Boro it reminds me of the playground when we played 'rush goalie'. In other words we didn't take position seriously which clearly the Boro don't.

I've reached that plateau where I'm actually enjoying his performances. I have just replayed their first goal. Have you ever seen goalie dominate his 6 yard box as well ? A mountain of a man !! I can't work out who he reminds me of Peter Schmeical or Kylie Minouge ?

AV: You must have some contact with him and were something of a 'fan' in the past - could you or someone tell him that the phrase "let the ball do the work" doesn't really apply to Goalkeeping.

Posted by: score Draw  | January 6, 2008 9:14 AM

stockton red wrote...

Tony Black-what cheeses me off about your unending criticism is that whatever anybody says or does at the club you can find a reason to knock it.

I see you are now criticising the appointment of a new PR employee. think most even minded fans would say the club's PR in recent years has been poor.Perhaps the club have identified this and are trying to address it.

No doubt if they did nothing you would find a reason to criticise that. No matter what happens in your eyes it is wrong.
And finally back to Yakubu - this weekend's result left me amused and presumably left you upset.

Posted by: stockton red  | January 6, 2008 11:06 AM

tonyblack wrote...

Stockton Red,

do you ever read my previous posts ? Obviously not.

The appointment of a new PR guru is to be greatly applauded and I have said that any idea they come up with at the club is better late than never. I'm all for new ideas and trying new things at every single level.

However, the problem is that PR issues, important as they are, are secondary to all else.

For the PR to have any worth the club itself needs to first clearly set out it's short, medium and long term strategy.

We need to know exactly what money there is available and will be available in the future, and we need to know exactly where the money we did have has been spent.

I'm not a basher of all things just for the sake of it, as you say. But I'm of the opinion that these things that the club try do to are very ill thought out and that they are almost worthless as the fundamentals haven't yet been put in place, as I see it.

Keith Lamb for starters needs to clarify his way of working so as to explain why it seems to take and eternity to sort out contracts and why we seem to always leave it to the last minute when it's too late.

Downing, Zenden, Viduka, and Schwarzer have all made very clear public comments as to their frustrations on this matter and so whether they are right or wrong the position needs clarifying to the most important people of all, US.

Fans will not simply come back because the club sent them an email video or did an online poll about a stripe. These are things that will be the icing on the cake, but they aren't and never will be able to paper over what we all in here know is missing.

So I'm afraid to say that this PR is just window dressing for the sake of window dressing and it's extremely sad that the powers that be think that we will all buy into this, as many won't, hence the droves of empty seats.

They will come back ONLY when they see that people like Yakubu are wrong when they say that we are a club without ambition.

Are we a club with ambition ?

Let the Chairman clearly spell out his vision for the futu