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Villa Collapse Leaves Boro In Familiar Territory

Posted by on November 24, 2007 9:48 PM | 

WHAT stage of the season are we at? A frustratingly familiar one.

One where Aston bloody Villa come here and twist the knife with a St Valentines Day Massacre or a drubbing that sends the Red Books flying and makes Catt cry.

One where the annual Mogga bandwagon starts to creak into motion fuelled by a potent two stroke mixture of rampant sentimentality and rising desperation.

One where people hope Gibbo still has El Tel's number on his mobile.

One where the gulf between boo-boys and rar-ras opens up and all ambitions for the season fall through the gap.

One where the main defence against the increasingly vitriolic and pained denunciations of the manager is to weakly ask who the alternatives are, a mitigation that rests on the idea that the team are listing like a cruise ship that failed to dodge the iceberg and no one worth their salt would come here anyway.

One where the only hope is to start a pathetic search to find three teams worse, shut our eyes and hope for the best.

There is an emotional maelstrom gripping the Riverside. Rising numbers of supporters are hurt. Angry. Powerless. Resigned. Frustrated. And frightened.

Frightened at the prospect of a dark abyss looming, that the whole thing could collapse into a squabbling mess of disunity and recrimination and relegation that could lead to a headlong retreat into the past, that the glory days are over, that relegation would kiss goodbye to the big time, that the crowd will implode into bitter squabbling, the disillusioned will walk away - and that Gibbo may be one of them.

I'm gutted. I never expected a win, but Jesus wept.... after two scrappy but spirited displays and two hard earned points that should have been a platform for a season saving revival, Boro unravelled again.

It is no good trying to take positives from being the best team for 44 minutes, or matching good sides for an hour if the team are going to lose focus, lose shape and lose heart when a goal flies in. And it will. And the crowd are just as fragile.

Good intentions and conscious efforts to urge the team on soon lose steam and become negated into angst as soon as Boro are behind. Just when we most need to be united and strong.

We've been here before. The current rudderless malaise is worst than last year. The debate is now raging as to which season the current one most echoes.

I did a Time Warp in the Gazette this week looking back to the same week in 1993-94, Lennie Lawrence's final season when the impetus of the Rioch revival was spluttering out but the real Gibson cash injection and Great Leap Forward to the Riverside Revolution was yet to kick in.

We are not that bad, either as a team or in terms of the corrosive apathy on and off the pitch that strangled the season.

Neither, despite the publicly espoused commitment to attacking football undermined by defensive frailities or unbalanced and thin squad and is this like 1996-97 because back then there was a zealous and unstinting support from the crowd that held the disintegrating team together and ensured that whatever happened we would bounce back, a confidence alarmingly lacking today.

You could argue that we are at a watershed moment the importance that will not really be felt for years to come, a re-run of 1981-82, with Southgate in the Bobby Murdoch role as former heroic pitchside leader elevated unexpectedly to dug-out but dealt a bum hand by finances and the tide of history.

In that scenario Eindhoven is acting as the historic high water mark in place of the Wolves quarter-final, a pivotal point which could have been built on but which instead sparked an alarming bout of belt tightening, squad trimming and retreat from ambition.

I am not convinced of that apocalyptic view because now the economic foundations are far stronger, the infrastructure of the club is sound and the leadership remains determined.

For me this season smacks of the last campaign under Bryan Robson in that glaring weaknesses in the squad with a potentially fatal lack of pace or variety had gone woefully unaddressed in the Summer and after a bad start there seemed to be no plan B.

Moreover, the bubbling discontent in the crowd from the previous season - Robbo had been booed in the 'lap of honour' after the drab final day draw at home to relegated Watford - had been allowed to fester as the club hid from the mounting political problems and spilled over into the new season with renewed bile and ferocity.

The team was one dimensional and under-performing, the manager seemed powerless to change it and the crowd were deeply divided so soon after the glory days of Wembley trips galore. The entire project was in real danger of collapsing.

It was the worst start in the Premiership - worse even that both the relegation seasons. The worst that is until this year. It was at this stage of the season, heading towards the first week of December - and, it must be said quite unequivocally, heading for relegation - that Gibbo made the fateful phone call to Teesside Tel.

Boro must start winning soon - Reading is a must win next week then, after the mandatory drubbing by Arsenal, it must be three points at Derby too - because if not it will be hard to head off an all out fans' revolt and Gibbo's dialling finger will get twitchy.

Comments (106)

Si wrote...

Vic

You really couldn't have said it better.

Even after we went down in 1996/97, all our season tickets were sold for 1997/98. We still manage to build a strong squad capable of competing against the likes of Liverpool (with or without Emerson!). And yet if Sunderland had not fallen at Ipswich in their penultimate game...

Then you had 2000/01. That side had gifted players in it like Schwarzer (still in his 20's), Ugo, Karembeu and Boksic, and yet it took Tel to get the best out of them. And even then, if City had not fallen at Ipswich in their penultimate game...

Mismanagement in both cases. But at least we had the crowd on our side...

Now 2007/08. What we perceived as a young and promising attacking side after the 2-0 win over Birmingham has disintegrated dramatically. What's the reason? Aliadiere hitting the post at West Ham? The same player pulling his hamstring in the same match? Sunderland players hacking Arca, Mido and Tuncay out of action? Liam Miller? (Having been at the Riverside that day - nice day it was too - that still hurts.)

Or is it just mismanagement of players that we know genuinely can deliver far more than they're actually delivering? Again?

Still, look on the bright side. Villa hammerings have been turning points before (in both 2000 and 2006). The question is, can we really count on this game being a turning point?

Posted by: Si  | November 25, 2007 12:15 AM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Vic,

I think you put everything that everyone has been saying, thinking, screaming individually and collectively over the last 5 years, not just this year.

I watched the game live in Baku with Villa fans, Liverpool fans, even Newcastle fans, and the jury has reached the verdict that we are going down.

I witnessed Lamb & Gibson, sitting next to Southgate in the west stand, and he looked a very lonely man, troubled and obviously ill at ease. Body language tells me that all is not well between masters and slave.

We are witnessing the demise and serious decline of a club that has so much potential but is being incredibly mismanaged from top to bottom.

The sad thing is, I cannot see a way out of it this time. Whether Gibson sacks Southgate, brings in Paul Jewell the perennial escape artist to help, or simply leaves things be, we are in freefall, and the rip cord has failed to operate.

I hear from mates who say, "there are 3 clubs worse than us", well please tell me where.

I am actually starting to believe that Gibsons's current business acumen may be to allow the club to be relegated, if that is to be our fate, in the hope of rekindling the fire in the Championship.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | November 25, 2007 6:48 AM

nigel (mumbai) wrote...

AV: as usual, you capture the mood and the moment...

I really don't want to hear any more 'positives' to be seen in defeat, especially 0-3 at home to a mid-table side.

I'm sure everybody at the club can look in the mirror this morning and see the future staring back at them in bleak technicolour.

Two points from two games against bottom four sides was hardly a recipe for hope but when you're starving crumbs can take on the appearance of a fullsome meal only to leave you feeling empty when the plate comes back with nothing again next time around.

We are destined for the drop and for god knows where after that. The only hope of salvation is that Gate takes the responsibility himself, recognises that he isn't experienced enough or equiped to take the club upwards and onwards right now, and offer his resignation.

Gibson made a mistake but won't accept even the possibility that he might have been wrong. Eindhoven was a watershed, a crossroads and we turned left and down instead of right and up; we looked at our bootstraps - 'small town in Europe' instead of upwards to the global platform, profile and opportunities that Premier League status gives us.

The fans are disenfranchised, cut-off, uninvolved in any counsel as to what is needed and how to put things right. Our only role is to keep paying the money, stay turning up, and get behind the team no matter how incapable they might be. I guess it's a little like watching someone you love fading away before your eyes for want of a treatment that you know but they refuse to listen to or accept.

The frustration is so real that you can hold it and squeeze it, throw it and kick it around but it refuses to ease it's grip or go away.

With the way football is changing the prospects for us seem particularly bleak. Steve Gibson recognised what was needed in 1986 - he had to sieze total control to impose the root and branch changes that were needed at that time. That was twenty years ago and the times and the scenario have changed.

We need fresh blood at the very top, a more consultative approach, we need to look outwards from Teesside and tap in to the global expertise and opportunities that are available to us. We need a change of perception and of mentality.

We need the Gazette - journalists like you - to provide the platform and open up the debate to rescue the club from its present course before the route towards disaster becomes irreversible

Posted by: nigel (mumbai)  | November 25, 2007 8:40 AM

Big mets..Boro 4 ever!! wrote...

Well i was on this site 3 weeks ago fully looking forward 2 a good Month Spurs and Bolton both below us,Villa (always hard) and next up a poor Reading side who are shipping goals and almost as low in confidence as the Boro (they lost in the 94th min yesterday).

I think most people were saying that it was a must that we got between 10 and 12 points from these four matches...so here we are 3 down = 2 points ,1 goal (a wonder goal from a right back)..."well done lads"!!

Its really killing me at the moment watching the Boro, i am a season ticket holder and i am off to Reading on next Saturday, so I'm not throwing in the towel...but Christ what the hell is going on?? I am not a boooing doom monger but even i am really fearing relegation. People all around the country (sky,motd) are slating Derby but the worrying thing is that we are only 3 points above them, and what odds them beating us in a few weeks time??

As for the great manager debate i really don't think its a issue as i just can't see Gibbo sacking the Gate, but just for fun lets have a look at the possibility's and there Pros/Cons.

Paul Jewell - My choice buy a mile, Hes English, he has managed Wigan and Bradford on average budgets and more importantly he know how to get out of a relegation scrap with a lot less at his disposal than he would have at the Boro.

Mogga - The fans choice from what i can gather from yesterdays match. Yes i think this would be the best bums on seats and general feel good factor move..."the hero returns"!! We all saw what happened when he returned to the Riverside with WBA + he could work the Teesside pride factor. But still a gamble, hes never managed in the top flight (he inherited a WBA that was already top), so how would he rally a relegation threatened team.

I for one would welcome Mogga back with open arms i first watched Boro in 1987 so for me Mogga is an icon from the days when watching the boro was fun (16000 fans, cold,drain pipe toilets,Giz a squeeze ha) ahh nostalgia!!

El Tel - No question of his talent, and by all accounts a good friend of Gibbo, Fantastic CV and of course kept us up as Robbos "adviser". He has already shown us that he can shut up a leaking Boro back four (i think we only conceded 3/4 goals in 12 with the same players as Robbo + Crossley coming in for skippy).

So that's it really i know that there are others, i personally love to see Ady Bothroyed he but i don't think he would come.....or how about Stevie Mac i here he's after a job ha.

So next up Reading, we need 3 point nothing less!!

Posted by: Big mets..Boro 4 ever!!  | November 25, 2007 8:54 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Gibbo ,Snap out of it!

Everybody makes mistakes ,it is just recognising that before its too late. Swallow your pride. Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | November 25, 2007 8:57 AM

Diablo "Derek" (Costa de la Darlingtono) wrote...

Wouldn't it be better if the 3 premier league geordie teams toddled off to join the Scottish league. You might win something then and probably wouldn't have to endure so many embarrassing thrashings.

Posted by: Diablo "Derek" (Costa de la Darlingtono)  | November 25, 2007 9:02 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

On balance we are in the worst pickle since we moved to the Riverside.

On what basis? We have no strikers unless Mido is fit and if we get him back on the pitch he will be away as the Xmas decorations come down.

The team know that if we go a goal down it is unlikely we will get back into a game. All these returning players will not change that scenario and it is unlikely to change before Feb because of the window.

Lets look back at previous struggles.

Robbo had Ravenelli, TLf and even Beck
Robbo and Tel had Boksicknote, Ricard
Mac had JFH, Veruka and Yak
Gate had Veruka and Yak

All of those could get you a goal. All of those gave you some hope of the ball sticking up front for a bit even if they were not that good.

Currently Mido has two goals, his return is uncertain but at least we know he will make it to the African Nations Cup. Aliadiere, Dong Goal Less and Tuncay have scored one between them.

We have collapsing crowds that are now turning against the team and club, the three year slither that started Xmas 2004 continues to gather pace. I wont mention the inexperienc of the coaching staff.

But things can turn around and have done so before. Somehow we have get to get in front in a match and make something happen. The shot that squirmed past Carson could easily have gone in and that could have changed the game. It is not over yet but to ignore the plight we are in is dangerous.

What is the view of Gill junior, waste of space, he will continue playing rugby on a Saturday. I will be visiting John at Reading for a gristle burger next week hoping for something from the match.

Lets hope that when he visits me for the Derby match we are not in the bottom three and gving the Rams a much needed boost.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 25, 2007 9:28 AM

Shaun China wrote...

It is time to stop the rot.

Gibbo bring in a shadow for Gate to sort out the problems.
This may keep us up and then we can re-group.
What about the man in Yarm, MAC. This would work as Gate needs a mentor as much as MAC needs to prove a point.

Posted by: Shaun China  | November 25, 2007 12:03 PM

Dene Grove Dave wrote...

I do hope I am wrong , but recent events within the club ie: Gareth Southgate ( inexperienced low cost replacement for S.McLaren ).Graham Fordy ( PR Guru , big earner and not replaced )and Barron the goalkeeper coach , replaced in house by Stephen Pears ( at little cost ), are sure signs of a firm asset stripping .

As an ex supervisor , I have seen it happen before when a company is in trouble . For company read football club . It has all the hallmarks of a club preparing for life in the lower flight ( as commented on earlier ).Do hope I`m wrong as the fans will vote with their feet next year Steve !

**AV writes: Graham Fordy "PR guru"? Are you sure about that?

Posted by: Dene Grove Dave  | November 25, 2007 12:07 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

I fail to see anything to be remotely optimistic about at the moment. In fact if anything things are looking worse now than they did a few months ago when I said after the Birmingham game rather than being upbeat about a great display, I was more concerned about our obvious lack of ability to put 4 or 5 past a really poor blues side.

Gareth is doing his best as he always has in his time with Boro and I do not wish to see him booed, jeered or run out of town by an angry mob or by a chairman making him a scapegoat for the failings of a club on a much broader level.

Gareth needs help, its pretty obvious and the current back room staff have zero experience (and ability) at this level. The continuity rationale evaporated over time as they have shipped out (Beswick, Round, Barron etc.), the Xavier comments look to be more profound now and the fact that top players for one reason or another didn't want to stay at the club tells its own story.

I'm not sure who needs the most help by a Venables type figure being brought in? Gareth definitely needs a few pointers (Wilkinson and his coaching qualification dictate sadly looks to have some basis) but I suspect its Steve Gibson who needs the biggest assistance in putting the club back where it was.

Nothing is going to change until a huge slice of humble pie is served and consumed with equally great aplomb. Reality is calling!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | November 25, 2007 12:26 PM

keith wrote...

Another game and another shambles and how completely expected it was by the majority of fans - and there'll be plenty more to follow if things dont change soon.

Arsenal coming up that could easily be double figures if they play at their best and i aint joking.

But dont worry folks because steve gibson is never wrong.Is there another chairman in the world who would give someone a 5 year contract who had never actually managed so much as a pub team before let alone a premiership outfit?

Just as the blame for Englands failure lies with the fools at the FA our demise can be traced to one man the buck always starts at the top. Will Gibson act now or like emperor Nero stand and play his fiddle whilst Rome burns?

We all like Gareth, he is a great guy. Unfortunatly that doesn,t qualify you to be a manager, and it certainly doesn,t help when you surround yourself with people as inexperienced i.e.Cooper or ineffective (Malcolm Crosby)

The vast majority of fans couldn,t care less if we had a alien from mars as chairman as long as we had a winning team . How long till we hear "Gibson out" at the riverside.

The ambition to challenge the best attitude of the mid nineties has been replaced with you should all just be happy we,re here. Well thats not what the fans want to hear Steve.

Slowly but surely the clubs hierachy has built a brick wall between itself and its supporters from the insult of Keith Lamb's attack on season ticket holders to the rejection of fans favorites Ali and Bernie and the refusal of any outside injection of financial help. What an absolute shame. That attitude will shatter the dreams of so many

Posted by: keith  | November 25, 2007 12:37 PM

John Powls wrote...

AV

Agree with all you (and posters) have said - but with two exceptions. The time for Gibbo to act is now not after the Derby game or later.

No-one currently at the club has the ideas or leadership qualities to get us out of the mess we've got ourselves in. If the had, they'd have done it by now. We all know that and so do the players.

A new regime needs some time to have a look at what we've got and shape it up as best they can and prepare for the window.

Since the January business will be being set up now one of the first acts may be to stop some moves already in train, like buying more forwards that have never scored in the Prem.

If we leave it until after the Reading (strong at home; a point would be a miracle without something changing), Arsenal (anything below a cricket score would be a bigger miracle) and Derby (my money is on them breaking their not scoring and losing sequence against us - we've got history) games then we're pretty well doomed.

At that stage we're not going to attract a decent manager or the kind of players of quality that we need. So, it has to be now.

The second area of disagreement is about candidates for manager.

We should ensure that this time we get the 'top drawer' manager that we were promised before.

And, for me, that doesn't mean Jewell. His Prem record is no better than Gate's. We're in the sort of scrap that he was used to but we surely also want to see beyond that not limit ourselves to it for the next 4 or 5 seasons.

That also means Gibbo has got to give up being precious about 'must be English and must be available'.

And if a Hitzfeld type can be interested again then he mustn't be turned down because he wants to sweep away our coaching staff and bring in people who know what they are doing at this sort of level.

Now about doing a deal with Croatia for Slaven Bilic allowing him to continue to coach his national side through the Euro's as he deserves? Why not? Gibbo let The Ex do it as England coach for years.

Bilic says he wants to manage in the Prem and has played here. His English is better than Jewell's and he's used to marshalling slim resources to superb effect.

Gibbo should then apologise publicly to Gate for putting him in a no win situation and blighting the start of his coaching and managerial career. Gate is a decent, honest man who deserved better and who, I suspect, is suffering just as much as we all are.

As Ian says, without action, I suspect our trips to Reading and Derby will be all pain and no gain - and that's not just the gristleburgers!

Posted by: John Powls  | November 25, 2007 1:26 PM

gt wrote...

Didnt see the game so i cant realy comment but what i have noticed this season iswe dont seemed to be as compact and defensively,although Young ,Woodgate and Wheater look decent at times, I dont think they are physical enough in their own box and seem to get knocked around. Riggott and Pogi are tougher

Lets try 3-5-2 - Goalie, Woodgate, Huth, Pogi - Oneil, Rock, Cats, Arca, Downing ,- Johnson(free Roll) - Aliadiere.

Please dont sign Nugent, he's not good enough,

Posted by: gt  | November 25, 2007 1:37 PM

borolad32 wrote...

Vic,

Its thanks to the Gazette and journo's like yourself that us boro fans have a platform from which to try and communicate our despair regarding our current ineptness to the management at MFC.

If we were to to a straw poll, i reckon between 80-90% of boro fans would vote for Gareth to be given his marching orders. This situation isnt just recent, Gareth has had over a season to to try and move the club forward. The truth is, he clearly does not have the tools to do it.

The general feeling is that because Steve Gibson made such an effort to get agreement from the Premier League for Gareth to take over without the qualifications, if he was now to sack him, he would lose face and credibility.

Well for me, Mr Gibson is losing credibility at an alarming rate by not dealing with the current terrible situation.

And by not doing so the club has a directionless and rudderless feel to it. The situation is like a runaway train to the championship that only Mr Gibson can pull the brake on, but chooses not to because his pride is worth more than premiership survival.

Us fans are now getting tired of trying to let the management know how we feel, they take no notice anyway, and as mentioned already, we are not represented at the club at board level, we are just seen as numbers through the turnstile. The only means of communicating our feelings to the club is through the media.

I would like to think that if Gareth really cares about middlesbrough football club, he will hold his hands up and admit he is out of his depth, and tender his resignation. Mr Gibson would then perhaps not lose face, and we can begin the search for the 'top drawer manager' as was originally promised.

The longer this situation is allowed to continue the greater the feeling of helplessness among the fans will be. I am hearing many fans that were there on Saturday saying they are not going to continue going to matches until there is a change in management. Well if gareth is still there after Christmas i reckon crowds may have fell to below 20,000. And that would be terrible for the club.

So, Mr Gibson i think you need to get a grip of the situation and deal with it appropriately. Just allowing MFC to unravel as it is would be criminal, and perhaps irreversible.

Posted by: borolad32  | November 25, 2007 1:48 PM

Ian W wrote...

This is going to sound a little daft, but bare with me.

When I play Footy Manager (GS's scouting tool) and sometimes in my first 2 seasons, I might have say 3 injured strikers and little in the way of funds to sign someone who'll be a long term asset., what I tend to do is sign an ageing striker on a short term contract until the end of the season. Make sure we "maintain a respectable league position".

I say Southgate, if Gibbo isn't going to relieve him of his post, sign up Jimmy Floyd again on loan. We need a striker, and it was only 2 years ago that he was prolific. Plus it can't hurt to, can it?

God I miss Yakubu and Viduka now though. :(

Posted by: Ian W  | November 25, 2007 2:32 PM

bringbackmoggawagon wrote...

I don't see the appointment of Mowbray being a thing of pure nostalgia. He's 100% boro, personifies the word 'fight' (even more than Dean Glover) plus he´s a fan of open, attacking foorball and perhaps the only choice capable of filling us with illiusion again.

Lets face it......i admire Gibbo's loyalty, but Gareth has to go.

Posted by: bringbackmoggawagon  | November 25, 2007 3:25 PM

coggins wrote...

Teesside is getting the team it deserves partly for not buying into gibson's vision - hence the asset stripping and comparison with 1981 ie getting in inferior replacements. Also investment in big city teams has pushed us down a tier from top 10 to bottom 8

It's all well and good saying we should've built on eindhoven, extended our global profile blah blah but attendances have been falling year on year so if the people in your back yard aren't bothered anymore then why would anyone else be?

Posted by: coggins  | November 25, 2007 4:26 PM

John Powls wrote...

Shaun China

Was your mouth out with soap and water!!

Ian W

Stick to the computer games, mate!

Posted by: John Powls  | November 25, 2007 7:07 PM

Ken wrote...

AV - I see a whole article here about "Where is Mido?".

However, our biggest signing of the summer has been our best player recently (not saying much!), but I see not one word in the media about him.

For all intents and purposes, it is as if we never signed TUNCAY. So, AV, "Where was Tuncay ?"

PS You know by now my feelings about Gary O'Neil, but if his Average Lad combination of commitment, work rate, and complete brainlessness keeps Tuncay off the pitch, we will be relegated for sure. And, I have to qualify that that is based on the prior matches, I did not see yesterday's match, so I cannot in good faith comment on that performance.

Posted by: Ken  | November 25, 2007 7:39 PM

HolgateEnder wrote...

it just feels to me like the last year of robbo. the team lost faith in the manager and the crowd was split and full of apathy because gibbo had said there was no way he would get sacked no matter what.

remember that game against Bradford, Paul Ince late equaliser and gibbo did the biggest sigh of relief ever? when will the sigh of relief come this season? it had better be VERY soon or we are going down.

Posted by: HolgateEnder  | November 25, 2007 9:22 PM

James Emmerson wrote...

Agree with all about the desperation of the situation.

What makes me alternatively laugh hysterically and then get seething angry is the way that GS, when posed the question "are you in a relegation dogfight?" won't answer the question. Like he thinks his dodging it, or not saying the 'r' word, will actually mean that it isn't happening.

I think a lot of fans would give GS credit for coming straight out with the blunt truth - he was teetering close to it on Sat, and it will do him far more good to just admit it and (assuming Steve G does nothing) kick some backsides, locate Mido, drop Woodgate and start getting some fight and pride at least back into the team.

However I don't agree with all the posters bemoaning the absence of Viduka & Yakubu. I watched the barcodes game Saturday (hugely enjoyable) and recognised only too well the invisible man that Viduka was throughout that game, it was embarrassing. Just like Yakubu, when the opposition is inferior they both bossed the show, but went missing when needed in the big games.

Viduka has already missed five games with one of his 'calf strains' and Yakubu has been benched by Moyes who must be wondering how on earth the club agreed to pay so much for him.

Posted by: James Emmerson  | November 25, 2007 10:01 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

I'm really sorry to say this, but I want Gareth to go now. I've been a fan of his since he took the job, and I really bought into his attacking football philosophy.

But it's obvious now that Gate can't motivate the players to get the best out of them and I don't believe he can get us out of this mess. The side is currently playing without any confidence whatsoever, and it's very obvious that if the opposition score, heads go down. Like the fans, they know we haven't got anybody to get the goals.

And frankly, the mess is mostly of Gate's own making; he may have had limited funds, but he did sign all 4 "strikers" (I use the word loosely) at the club, and I'm afraid the chickens have come home to roost - headlessly. The goals Yak is getting for Everton just add insult to injury.

And what of the defence? What defence? Gate was a hell of a defender and so was Coops, but between them, they can't prevent our defenders from giving away stupid goals. Another 3, all preventable, on Saturday.

I think we need another 10-12 points before New Year to have any chance of survival. I can only see us getting 6 or 7, and that's if we actually manage to score a goal or two.

Time to go, Gareth. As JP says, two more games is too long. Two more defeats to bottom 8 sides would surely consign us to the drop.

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | November 25, 2007 11:09 PM

tonyblack wrote...

I don't give GS credit for anything because he's weak in every single department and so out of his deapth that it's utterly painful.

" I don't have a magic wand " were his latest pearls of post match wisdom. Well Gareth, I don't expect you to have a magic wand, but I do expect you to have half a clue which you all too obviously don't have.

I said it in here from day 1. The same goes for Coops and most of the backroom team.

These people have little real footballing or coaching knowledge. These people have absolutely no experience in management. These people have no idea how to man manage, motivate players, or talk to the press.

They are people learning on the job and making endless mistakes as they go and it's an absolute disgrace that God Gibson is beyond reproach in this town.

From day 1 of this season I said watch out for Man City because their manager has a club CV as long as your arm, who had the dollars and knows how to buy PROPER QUALITY PLAYERS, whilst our manager has absolutely nada.

Lee isn't good enough and Aliladiere has been blighted throughout his career and was far, far too much of a risky punt as either a winger or as one of our main strikers.

Two bad buys simply isn't good enough in this league, especially when you don't have a pot of a big gold to constantly delve into.

We couldn't wait to get rid of Yakubu and Viduka, could we, and the end result is relegationsville.

Yes, by all means get rid of people who you feel are lazy and just in it for the dollars, but at least have the sense to replace them with people of AT LEAST the same quality.

And to all of you who think Mendi isn't good enough to get into this shambolic team, no offence, but you're all off your nuts. Short term or not, he's quality and he's up for it and we're deep in it and need ALL the help we can get.

From day 1 I questioned God's divine right to rule ad infinitum, based on his past glory's. Time and time and time again I was ridiculed, abused and accused of all sorts.

Well, time has proven me right.

I take absolutely no pleasure in this. None whatsoever. I don't want to be right by being in the Championship. This town has enough negative PR from the likes of C4 and so the town and surrounding areas needs a successful club at all costs, as it's this club that's put the Boro on the map. Without it the investment and regeneration would have been far less, in my opinion.

But unless we get our finger out then this is exactly where we'll be. We must act and WE MUST act now.

If God doesn't have the bottle or the intelligence or if he's just too arrogant to hold his hand up and admit he's made a mistake, then the very least he must do is get someone in as GS no.2 who can nurse maid him through the rest of the season and beyond until he's ready to do the job alone.

If God wants GS for the next five years then OK, but please let's not just sit back and watch the ship sink without doing something about it.

In addition, we need money and we need enough of it to bring in top quality strikers who are going to score the goals we need to survive.

I know that we don't want to do a Leeds and no one is for one moment advocating that, but we do need to stick our financial necks out just a little bit in order to remain in this league.

The results have gone our way so far but we can't rely on this luck for too much longer.

COME ON STEVE, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND ACT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

IF WE GO DOWN AND YOU JUST ARROGANTLY SAT BACK AND DID NOTHING THEN YOU TOO WILL END UP AS STEVE MCCLAREN, AND LIKE HIM, DESERVEDLY SO.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | November 26, 2007 12:37 AM

john sully wrote...

let us be blunt. gs has made terrible mistakes in the transfer market ans with his team selection. i say it once again BRING BACK MENDIETA!!!

as for a new manager, EL TEL EL TEL

Posted by: john sully  | November 26, 2007 1:11 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

It must be Gareth Southgate’s worst nightmare – the realisation that the gamble he and Steve Gibson took in appointing him Boro manager has more likely harmed his long-term career prospects than helped.

What’s even worse is that he’s the type of man who won’t resign and Gibson is the type of man who won’t sack him – a kind of overly polite Mexican standoff.

I just hope and pray that the momentum gathering in the national press to see the return of Steve McClaren is wider of the mark than a George Boateng 25-yarder – though at least the Spinning Grinner has yet to throw his umbrella into the ring.

Perhaps John Powls has a point about getting in an international manger as a short-term measure – although I think Slaven Bilic will be too busy preparing for the Euro’s, but maybe McLeish could do a job of turning average players into a team who punches above its weight.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | November 26, 2007 9:20 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

I think Werdermouth has it right that Gate is stood on the end of the gangplank and wont jump and Gibbo wont pick up his sword and give some encouragment.

Sadly we are now have 6 matches before the window opens and Derby looks the best chance of a result.

I certainly will not be travelling to Reading in expectation. I have little hope of anything the following weekend against Arsenal. Folowing Derby we have the Hammers at home then finish the month at Brum and Pompey.

If we get 10 points that will give us a point a game for the season to Xmas. With our present personnel can someone tell me where we will get three wins and a draw.

What can we change? The window is shut so no players unless we get someone no one else wants and is unemployed.

Jinky is back so why not play Mendi? Same reason, bringing Jinky back doesnt matter, no strikers, no one to hold the ball up, no one to score. Mido may come back shortly and that will a huge boost, maybe. But he will be off in Jan anyway.

New players in the window? History shows most deals dont get struck until late in the window, unlikely to get a proven premiership striker because clubs will keep them, overseas always a risk.

Jan is a tough month, probably without a striker.

Looking grim but a stroke of look could change the mood and outlook.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 26, 2007 9:51 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Another clueless performance by the Boro.

I hoped GS might do the decent thing and resign after Saturday’s game, but no just the normal spiel afterwards.

GS does not have what it takes to be a PL manager.

SG should have replaced him after the last game before the International break, it is imperative that he does now.

GS does not seem to have any idea of his best side and is unable to get team to play.

He does not have the balls to make big decisions, Schwarzer (goes down in instalments) and Boteng should not be in the team.

Managers are also judged by their signings, only Arca and ONeill can be considered any kind of success.

Woodgate – poor since singing his contract
Young – very average
Tuncay – poor, but has not been given a fair chance
Aliadiere – Average, why can’t he complete 90 minutes
Huth – the invisible man
DGL – non league standard

All in all if nothing changes now we will be playing Championship football next season

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 26, 2007 10:09 AM

mark j wrote...

3 nil down after 58mins and tuncay stays on the bench and we have not made all our subs, WHY?

I am looking forward to getting Arca back as we are unraveling badly .

I know Southgate has bought some experienced players [not in the goals departmenthowever] but you can see on the park once the first goal goes in for the opposition that heads drop.

The team have heard all Gate's stick together banter and the belief is clearly not there.

There is no talisman like figure on the pitch in a Boro shirt and the players are suffering a mentally demoralising punishment ride.

Still Mendi doesn't make the bench, did you know he used to play in the Valencia team with John Carew who put Villa's first goal in?

Southgate ,you are a good bloke and did a great job on the pitch for us but I feel a 'its us against them' lockdown taking place as you ,Gibbo and Lambo close down the reality of the situation that is staring us in the face.

Posted by: mark j  | November 26, 2007 10:13 AM

Nigel Reeve wrote...

I agree with JP, the time to act is now, we are in a desperate situation and Gibson needs to be ruthless.

I have posted previously that whether Gibson made a mistake or not in appointing Gate would be seen at the end of the season, but I was wrong, it is plain now.

It pains me to say that because I hold Gareth in very high regard and he may well still make a good manager, but as others have posted he is too inexperienced and so are his coaching staff.

Gibson wanted to create a 'boot room' culture giving the club continuity, well bring in a top class manager with his own staff and continue to develop the 'in house' coaches as well. I don't see the two being mutualy exclusive.

We could even keep GS as assistant if his pride allows.
We have been in the brown stuff before, but this time it is more desperate, we can't score for toffee and we are shipping goals at an alarming rate, the two sure halmarks of a doomed team.

If we don't change the manager we will go down, I believe. If we do change him we may survive.

Gibson has done Gareth a huge dis-service in making him manager but he needs to act because if the crowd turn against the chairman then we really are in trouble.

Bring in a top class manager now (foreign or otherwise, I don't care) pay him a shed load so he can't refuse the offer.

Tough times require tough actions, Steve Gibson its time to act, we are staring into the abyss.

Posted by: Nigel Reeve  | November 26, 2007 10:18 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

So another manager bites the dust, Billy Davies is sacked just in time to get someone in to give the Rams the new manager boost before we arrive.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 26, 2007 10:49 AM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Just heard that Derby have sacked Billy Davies. Gareth Southgate has now be installed as the new 7-4 favourite for the chop.

What will the betting be on McClaren taking the Derby job, odds on? Just in time to take 3 much needed points of us.

**AV writes: I've just said that.

Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | November 26, 2007 11:20 AM

David Morrison wrote...

Worrying realy that the calls for a change are getting loder and louder. Surely by the time we come to playing our next home game after derby away will be to much for SG if we dont pick up a win in our next 3 games.

I agree with all the other comments that ou wont find a nicer guy than SG and that he truly wants to do well for Middlesbrough but his is definantly out of his depth.

We had the chance to build on Eindhoven and no boro supporter cant deny that fact. Yet we stood still and failed to get somebody to move us on.

Our European stature had grown with those great comebacks and im sure sum top managers would have looked at the crowd going mad and a packed out and thught they would have fancied a bit of that.

We have gone again for a manager with no experience and this time the gamble is not reaping the rewards.
The fact aswell that we have no coaches with any top flight experience is of great concern and only gibbo can be at fault for this as he wanted the continuity.

SG to go in the next week and get sum 1 who will bring in sum experience and good coaching staff

Posted by: David Morrison  | November 26, 2007 11:21 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

I was just thinking how bad the teams in the bottom half of the premier league actually are.

If this weekend, Spurs draw against Birmingham, Bolton lose away to Liverpool and Boro manage to win at Reading – then we would be up to 13th with possibly only goal difference keeping us from 12th.

Not bad for a team who can’t score and haven’t won for nearly 3 months – It’s been the best league in the world apparently…

Posted by: Werdermouth  | November 26, 2007 11:22 AM

Captain Sensible wrote...

Mr Vickers

You sum up the current situation at boro very well indeed. I didn't really want to continue the ongoing debates in the forums but feel compelled to do so. Why? Because of the hopelessness of the situation, I feel really bad about what is happening to the club I, we, love.

I'm not a boo boy nor a rah-rah, but I do think I am a realist. For me the problems began 18 months ago when out of the blue an inexperienced and unqualified ex player was named as our manager on the back of a UEFA Cup final appearance. A man who had, apparently, beaten off a host of top draw applicants to get his position.

I thought then, and still do, that his appointment was a mistake. The club knew we were in decline, falling attendances, falling season ticket sales and a murmur of discontent around the stadium and the town.

We needed a name, not one who was necessarily going to need millions to spend, just someone who would get the fans excited. Who I don't know, only the club know who these top draw applicants were. We needed more than we got.

Southgate's buys to date are pretty ineffectual, I could say only Arca has proved his worth above and beyond doing a reasonable job. Mido's enthusiasm got us going a little, but, as I predicted in the forums, playing him too early could result in an injury which could leave him unavailable for some time.

It is this that leads me to my main point, the continued decisions Southgate makes consistently show the naivety of an inexperienced employee.

Here we have a manager who is learning his trade in one of the toughest leagues in the world. When I was at University I would no more have expected to be offered a management role as I would to be voted as prime minister!

As someone mentioned in the forums - Gibson would not let a retired truck driver run his haulage business. You just don't do that kind of thing.

Southgate needs to learn his trade. Gibson was unfair in putting him in charge of the team and is now in a position where sacking the manager would make him look like a fool, particularly after all the pro English chest thumping that has been going on lately. Unfortunately sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and admit a mistake, because I think Gibson will look a bigger fool if we get relegated.

We all know what Southgate and Gibson are trying to do, but having goals is only half the story, you have to set yourself realistic targets and you have to attain those targets or reassess, 52 league games and 18 months into his managership Boro are getting worse. The time to act is now and not when it is too late, setting up another manager to fail.

Posted by: Captain Sensible  | November 26, 2007 11:53 AM

Andy, the Hague wrote...

Never mind this 'we will be relegated' if we don't do something...it's already too late. I can't see Boro getting another 3 points, let alone 30, can you?

Lord, I've had some downs over 40 odd years supporting Middlesbrough but never anything as depressing as this, and so early in the season too.....

Posted by: Andy, the Hague  | November 26, 2007 12:02 PM

Never Happy wrote...

How many points do you all think we will get from our next six games?

Reading
Arsenal
Derby
West Ham
Birmingham
Pompey

Its looking more and more as if the relegation places will be fought out by B'ham, Boro, S'land, Wigan and Derby.

That makes it crucial that we beat B'ham and Derby, however we don't look like getting points off anyone so this will be easier said than done.

If Gibson refuses to sack Southgate then he surely will give him a chance by providing major funds in January.

He also needs to bring in new staff in the medical department.

All teams get injuries, but Boro players always seem to take longer to recover, then have the usual set back before taking an age to reach full match fitness.

Still on the bright side we will have games against Leeds, Sunderland and Hull to look forward to next season.


Posted by: Never Happy  | November 26, 2007 12:21 PM

stevo wrote...

This is all going to end in a horrible mess unless an experienced man manager is brought in plus the gaps in the team are plugged (by the new manager - not by GS, who has managed to purchase the most useless strikers in the PL).

Its stating the obvious. So why no action now before our fate is sealed? Do the board want us down in the Championship for some obscure reason that is only known to them? Its the only possible explanation for the lack of action.

The fans have turned already, the only way back is to suddenly see lots of points on the board - and THAT is the least likely scenario of all.

Posted by: stevo  | November 26, 2007 12:22 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Mac to Derby and them to beat us just doesnt bear contmplating, thats worse than him coming back.

I refrain from saying sack the manager because it doesnt always work. I am now changing my stance, someone has to come in before every shred of confidence has been strpped out of the team.

Gates statement in todays Gazette is no less than I would expect from an honest man, a man many have respect for in the game. By staying he is not helping his reputation. Nor is it helping the club. The fans do not want to vent their frustrations on Gate, nor do they wish to be churlish to Gibbo but the current situation is tearing the club apart.

It isnt like the end of Mac's reign where he had made hinself so unpopular that if he hadnt got the England job he would have had to go anyway. The fans want Gate to succeed but it doesnt look likely to happen soon, are Gate and Gibbo big enough to put the club first?

Is there a way to save face? To bring in someone alongside Coops and Gate to fire up the players we have because there arent any coming in the near future.

Harvey-Jones states about change that you dont know if what you are doing is right but if you do nothing you have got it wrong.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 26, 2007 1:12 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Simple question to Mr Gibson

What will be the most expensive, a top class manager who is allowed to bring in his own assistants or relegation from the PL?

Remember Mr Gibson, when after Eindhoven you promised the fans a top manager who would sign players that would make the football world sit up and notice.

When in reality you choose a Yes man as the manager who has signed no world class players.

Mr Gibson you are and always will be a legend on Teesside, however you are letting your public down big time.

Please wake up before it is to late, or are you planning for Campionship football with a team made up from the Academy?

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 26, 2007 1:15 PM

percyparmo wrote...

Firstly, Southgate does have club at heart,which is why he got the job, combined with the relative saving his appointment brought.

However,if he does truly have club at heart,he must go to Gibson and admit he is not up to the challenge, sad but true. He may well have lost the players already,and is certainly starting to lose the fans also.

Gibson must also show character here and admit that he did get this appointment wrong,and bite the bullet.

Although some fans are clammering for Mogga,or Jewell, I think we need somebody with more experience than either. My choice,and prob not popular would be Souness. He was a Boro legend,also has a point to prove and still retains a soft spot for Boro.

He almost relegated the Geordies admittedly,but so would any Boro fan. He might well be the person who has the personality to sort this mess out.

But something has now got to give,we are not drifting at the moment,but sinking fast. The malaise is plain to see,we have bought inadequate replacements for the Duke and Yak, Mido was to me a panic buy.

I emplore Gibbo to do the right thing quickly,and put Gate out of his misery. His record of standing by his managers is there for all to see but this is different.

Gate is out of his depth unfortunately,and the very future of the club could be in jeopardy if he does not act and quickly. Relegation and the prospect of an immediate return like last time,are unthinkable,and the repercussions dire,ie crowds,finance etc.

Come on Gibbo,you know what is required,and that is major surgery at the club,including the removal of the inept and arrogant Lamb,the root of our problem,when it comes to keeping players we needed or will need in future.

Posted by: percyparmo  | November 26, 2007 1:18 PM

Score Draw wrote...

* Drop Schwarzer.
* Play Tuncay as a striker.
* Play either Cattermole or Boatang (not both)
* Get Jose in to act as 'consultant'.

Admiittedly the last one was plucked out of a dream I had last night. At least I'm sleeping !!!!

We would be mid table within 6 weeks

Posted by: Score Draw  | November 26, 2007 1:25 PM

Nigel wrote...

When I read Downing was playing as a striker I assumed it was because Tuncay was injured. But clearly not as he was on the bench.

So GS has bought a player who is a striker with a good reputation in his home country and yet chooses to use a left winger as a striker instead?! God help us, what was the reason for the decision?

In very simple terms, all the talk of tactics, attacking football, quality of coaches etc etc is largely irrelevant, we all know and many have said that Boro's big failing this summer was not replacing adequatley Viduka and Yakubu.

GS conned himself into believing that an attacking style of play would result in the goals being distributed around the team, what a load of old tosh.

Posted by: Nigel  | November 26, 2007 1:39 PM

Si wrote...

I'd just like to show you some words I wrote after our 2-1 loss at Fulham back in December last year...

"The biggest insult of all comes from the fact that the very man who solidified our backline for five seasons, Gareth Southgate, can't get them (the team) to keep a clean sheet these days, let alone get the attack to score goals.

"I thought he was building a solid side. He isn't, he's destroying whatever attacking legacy McClaren created, and relying on a bunch of average kids to get us up the league...

"The inconsistent Mendi's and Rocky's of this world are better than no Mendi or Rocky at all. You've seen what those two are like on their best days..."

"Why let Jimmy and Queudrue go? Where's Zenden's replacement? Why play wingers where they shouldn't be played? Where's the spirit? Where's the organisation? And so on and so on and so on.

I hope that we do win the next game - convincingly. Hopefully then I can stop asking questions."

Sad that I find myself asking the exact same questions on this very day. Also in that same article I slammed the 'Gate's decision to play Arca in midfield - something which came off, as we now know.

Actually, for Boateng in '04, '05 and the first half of '06, read Arca in the second half of '07. 2 points from 21, and he's been injured all that time.

Coincidence?!? You can lose one or two players to injury, but when an opposition player hacks out the attacking engine of the side...

Posted by: Si  | November 26, 2007 1:47 PM

beeline wrote...

So it's just me then?

Posted by: beeline  | November 26, 2007 2:00 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Having read all the points made in here again, I'd like to refer people to the reason that brought me to this blog in the first place, and what I've been banging on about ever since, regardless of the abuse that I recieved.

I say " read again " because what was the view shared by the few, now seems to be the view shared by the many. The article in the link provided says it all to me.

Whatever people may think of this article and of the opinions I personally hold, the success of MFC is absolutely vital to the town, the area, jobs, and to attracting inward investment to the area.

A successful football club with an academy that is rightly held in high regard is what's put this town and this whole area on the map. As such, football passions aside, we simply cannot afford to be relegated.

Steve Gibson did it so amazingly well before, and now he must wake up, hold his hand up to his mistakes, and do it all again.

I've absolutely no doubt that if he does so he will be rightly applauded and backed all the way yet again buy a proud and passionate public that rightly thinks of him as one of us.

But times are a changing and time waits for no one. We must move with these changing times, embracing them, or we will simply keep on falling ever more behind, which is exactly what we've done.

I hope that this fantastic blog continues these kinds of discussions as it is one of the very few places in which proud, passionate fans can air their views, and possibly, just possibly, make the people at the club listen.

For me personally, the article I've linked to sums up what is required at this football club. Forget totally the grievences of a coach towards his player, as this must all remain frimly in the past, and just focus instead on the rest.

Revolution. Not Evolution. Is what's required at this club.

The club must embrace every modern business, PR, coaching, medical, and motivational practice possible within its pre set budgets, and it must change the small town mentality, to a big club and winning mentality if it's to compete and thrive.

There are far, far too many people at this football club making a great living and delivering below par.

There are far, far too many people at this football club making a great living and simply getting in the way of modern day methodology of every kind, business, PR and coaching alike.

There are far, far too many people at this football club making a great living who have lost the initial passion that no doubt brought them here in the first place.

Their is a perennial air of doom and gloom within this club, there is a perennial acceptance that we are all that we can be, and there is a perennial negative attitude that states that the best people simply wouldn't come here, and I simply do not and cannot subsribe to this view.

This is a big club, with a fantastic stadium, and an even better training ground, that most Serire A clubs don't have.

Granted. Lippi, Mourinho and Co may well not come here, but you can be damn sure that if the likes of O' Niel will go to Villa, that they will most certainly come here if the package is right.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | November 26, 2007 2:04 PM

Steve Brown wrote...

OMG I always cringe when i hear Paul Jewell's name linked with this club.His supporters always mention Bradford and Wigan yet somehow conveniently fail to mention his appalling tenure at Sheffield Wedneday.

Steve

Posted by: Steve Brown  | November 26, 2007 3:28 PM

John Powls wrote...

AV

This may just be a sign of how dispirited I now am - but nothing has changed, nothing's changing and nothing's being done about it - at least nothing that shows or is working.

All we're doing on here, as many of us point out is re-hashing what we've been saying for months now. That's a thankless and depressing task.

What's the point? We're preaching to our converted and those down at St. Gibbo's ain't listening.

I'll only post again when something changes that's worth us writing about.

Posted by: John Powls  | November 26, 2007 3:30 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Has GS decided that Tuncay is not good enough for the PL? The poor sod has not been given a proper chance, played out of position and then watches as Hutchinson is put on in front of him on Saturday.

I think Boro might have more joy playing a 3 - 5 - 2 formation.

Turnbull
Young (McMahon if he was not at B'Pool)
Wheater
Woodgate
Pogo
Taylor
O'Neill
Arca
Downing
Tuncay
Aliadiere (Unless Mido is fit)

Bench
Schwarzer, Riggott, Cattermole, Johnson, Aliadiere or Craddock

It might not work, but what we are playing at the moment is definately not working

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 26, 2007 3:59 PM

jc wrote...

It's like watching a car crash in slow motion.

And the most depressing aspect of it all - Tony Black was right (and he's not happy about it either). Most of us thought (hoped?) that GS was an intelligent guy, that he would learn rapidly on the job and become a good manager, that SG's punt would pay off.

But it's time to admit that it hasn't. Antonio Nero's prophecies have come to pass, although if you write as many words as he does, some of them have got to come true!

We've had a couple of collisions, we're currently skidding off the motorway, and we'll flip end over end in the next couple of months ending in a smouldering heap come March.

Let's hope someone new can grab the wheel before then, 'cause otherwise I'm not sure there'll be much left to cut out of the wreckage.

Posted by: jc  | November 26, 2007 4:07 PM

deka wrote...

Mistakes were made before the season started,first one was not getting 2 strikers in when viduka left .then we could have offloaded the yak,it was suicide to get rid of them both before we signed adequate replacements,and mido is not an adequate replacement. I think weve signed another ricketts here.

As for saturdays effort or lack of it, we went a goal down and that was it...game over...and what does southgate say...after we fell behind we were chasing the game.. are'nt we allowed to come from a goal down? should'nt we try even harder to equalise? should'nt we come out second half all guns blazing?

villa wont have an easier away game all season.. it was so bad even gibson left his seat 10 minutes before the end. how much more of this can we take?

surely if we lose at reading the axe must be wielded, somebody mentioned bringing back mclaren to help gareth, that surely is a non starter, the riverside would be empty if he came back.p.s. do not play downing as a striker...our budgie has more muscle.

Posted by: deka  | November 26, 2007 4:25 PM

stockton red wrote...

TB - we had a bit of an argument a couple of weeks ago but even ardent lifelong fans like myself are beginning to doubt that the people in charge have the clear headedness to get us out of this mess.

Steve Gibson's original idea was obviously that the experienced back room staff would guide GS along. Bar Harrison all have now gone to be replaced by Colin Cooper another with no experience .This cannot be right.

Whatever the attributes or failings of Aliadiere, Tuncay and DGL are, none of them have physical strength or an ability to hold the ball up.In other words if Mido is unfit we have no centre forward. If GS CC and Crosby could not see this in August then this is criminal incompetence on their part.

The club seem to want Mendieta off the wage bill and it doesn't look like he will go.This impasse is ridiculous.He's obviously not the player of old but if anybody does not think he could impact a game more than Hutchinson or Craddock they want their heads looking at.

Finally when are people at the club going to wake up as far as Schwarzer is concerned. Saturday's game had the familiar statistic 4 shots on target 3 goals concede d.I would love to be able to obtain the season statistics for the fourteen games so far.

When you watched the replay of the third goal he actually dived out of the way of a shot that was directly at him.Can anybody tell me that Ross Turnbull could be worse? He needs to be dropped immediately.

I'd like somebody to remind me the last time he actually pulled off a couple of saves to save us a point or win us a match because I cant remember it.

Posted by: stockton red  | November 26, 2007 4:58 PM

john sully wrote...

This cannot get any worse. I know i keep going on about mendi, but we need flair and a man to string a pass as well as a bruiser. you cannot play cattermole and boateng on the same team. it's a disaster.

So again BRING MENDI OUT OF THE COLD. HE WANTS TO PLAY BALL. ANOTHER MAN TO TAKE THE REINS..... BRIAN KERR. (i'm irish and he in my view is a really good manager compared to our past and most recent managers) LIAM BRADY.... HE'S IN CHARGE OF THE ARSENAL YOUTHS PROGRAM..... ENOUGH SAID!!!!

Posted by: john sully  | November 26, 2007 9:42 PM

tonyblack wrote...

JC, Stockton Red, no one wants to be right, we all just want to go back to Eindhoven and win.

I NEVER take offence at your comments because they are from the heart, by people who care passionately.

John Powls summed it up perfectly with his post... "

AV

This may just be a sign of how dispirited I now am - but nothing has changed, nothing's changing and nothing's being done about it - at least nothing that shows or is working.

All we're doing on here, as many of us point out is re-hashing what we've been saying for months now. That's a thankless and depressing task.

What's the point? We're preaching to our converted and those down at St. Gibbo's ain't listening.

I'll only post again when something changes that's worth us writing about. "

There is NOTHING more to say. We just have to sit back and hope that we get the points that save us from relegation.

One things for sure. Steve Gibson is no idiot. He may have made mistakes recently but he knows more than anyone that when you lose the fans to such a high degree then something will have to give, and it ain't gonna be him or Dracula.

GS days are very much counted, and Gibson knows it.

TB

**AV writes: The shell-shocked vow of silence is just post traumatic defeat syndrome. We will all be back shouting the odds before Saturday.... because we care!

Posted by: tonyblack  | November 26, 2007 10:42 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

John Powls has it right, we have posted long and hard about the problems and nothing is happening. Crowds have and continue to collapse. There is no sound unless someone can hear it and at face value there is a wall of silence at MFC.

Like JP says there is no point wasting cyber carbon and posting if no one listens. I have tickets with John at Reading and reciprocating with tickets at Derby. I dont know when I will see them live again. I will continue to post about the football but not about the club.

John Sully

Mendi is irrelevant to our current situation as was bringing Jinky back from Watford. This is not a comment to demean Mendi.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 26, 2007 10:58 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

You're dead right, AV. We all care. And Gibbo cares too. I'm sure I read somehwere that the only target he gave GS was to keep us in the Prem so I can't believe he will let us sink much lower in the mire before he acts to save the club he loves.

He may wish to save GS too, as I'm sure he has great admiration for him, so if he's not going to sack him then he must surely bring in a father figure again, such as El Tel.

But surely, sometime very soon, he must be prepared to
act decisively? There is too much at stake to let things drift further. What do you think?

Powlsy - come back mate! We need you! Give us a match report from Reading, and a poem about the Gristleburgers!

You don't want to become the Mendieta of the Blog - working hard behind the scenes but not getting in on the action!

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | November 26, 2007 11:55 PM

nigel (mumbai) wrote...

Just a word on Tuncay - I read an interview with Arsene Wenger (Allsports Nov '07) in which he says "They have bought Tuncay Sanli, who I know well. Good player, mobile, very lively, physically strong, good pace. I'm a bit surprised he didn't end up at a bigger club."

Why do good players come here and look bad or fail to make an impression? As others have said too many times we never see an improvement in players who come here and too often our young players rise and shine only to fade away.

Sanli has to be given an extended run and we have to play to his strengths, and (why am I repeating what so many others have said???) we need to raise the quality of our coaching and bring in the best - german, french, whoever from wherever...I don't care, I just want the best people available (and please, I know these are desperate times, but Paul Jewell - have we really sunk that low??)

Posted by: nigel (mumbai)  | November 27, 2007 5:30 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Leroy Lita is unhappy at Reading, could be a decent buy for the Boro.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 27, 2007 8:47 AM

Graeme W wrote...

Its already too late. The team is broken. The crowd is split. The crowd are on the players back. The players are at the crowds throat. The knives are out. There is no belief. There is no unity. This is a team with relegation written all over it.

The problem goes back to West Ham in the SF. If we won that we were back in Europe no matter what and it would have been easy to get the new manager and players in, keep the bandwagon rolling.

Losing that game knocked the stuffing out of Boro, like Wolves in 81. We were beaten before we even got to Eindhoven. Since then it has been a slow slip backwards and expectations talked down.

The club have settled for less and we had better get used to it.

Posted by: Graeme W  | November 27, 2007 9:49 AM

Simmo wrote...

What a bunch of knicker wetting faint hearts! You'd think Boro had never had a bad run before, or ever spent time in the bottom half let alone lower divisions. You are all squealing like bairns because you can't get what you want from the toy shop, a shiny new Champions League Boro.

Look lads, this is Boro - a second tier side that have done incredible to be top division so long, have won a cup and played in Europe. No club in the country has made the progress we have in the last 10 or 20 years. We should be proud.

All that is happening now is that we are regrouping after the big push on Europe. Two steps forward one step back. It is to be expected. If you thought it was going to be plain sailing you are as deluded as the Big Club Geordies.

Do you think Gibbo/Gate don't know where the problems are or aren't trying to solve them? Imagine if they were to panic in public like you lot.

Stick with it. Get behind the lads. Keep supporting.

Posted by: Simmo  | November 27, 2007 9:59 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Simmo - As you say Boro have made giant strides since 86. I for one never thought Boro would even get in Europe never mind make a final.

It was looked on as an acheivement if we made the 6th round of the FA Cup.

GS make be trying to put things right, however he is incapable of doing so. He has lost the team and the crowd and as such needs replacing.

Gibbo's henchman Lamb warned us that we would get the team we deserved, and his prophecy is coming true.

As I have previously posted, Gibbo is and always will be a legend on Teeside, he does however seem blinkered in his choice of managers and for some reason can see no wrong in the medical and coaching staff.

Until these are changed he may get his wish of Boro having 11 academy players in the team.

The team will however be playing Championship football.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 27, 2007 10:16 AM

Nigel wrote...

nigel(mumbai) makes an interesting comment re Tuncay, Wenger's comments are interesting to, he's a good judge of a player.

Downing playing ahead of Tuncay was the most perverse decision GS has made to date. Tuncay has to be our best striker so why isn't he playing? It will take him time to adapt to the prem. no doubt, but he won't adapt at all sitting on the bench.

GS needs to keep it simple, the best players available playing in their best positions. I would play Mido and Tuncay as the first choice strikers, I like Aliadiere he's a good footballer but hopeless at scoring not a good attribute for a striker. Play him on the right wing, bring O'Neill in the centre drop The Boat and select the other centre midfield from the pool available.

JP - As you have no doubt read several of us enjoy your posts we're all cheesed off because we can see the Championship looming but at least we can all express our collective angst on here!

Posted by: Nigel  | November 27, 2007 10:39 AM

tonyblack wrote...

Simmo wrote...

" Do you think Gibbo/Gate don't know where the problems are or aren't trying to solve them? "

No, I don't.

" All that is happening now is that we are regrouping after the big push on Europe. Two steps forward one step back. It is to be expected. "

Yes, but we didn't regroup for the better and that's the problem and the fundamental cause of where we are now, post Europe.

We fell well short in Eindhoven.

Instead of analysing why and how we could take the next step within the financial constraints of what we can prudently afford, we rested on our " we're just the Boro " and our " small town in Europe mentality ".

Like always, it's this mind set that costs us dear and the reason why this club is such a perennial yo yo club.

The idea should have been to employ a better coach, better coaching staff, better PR men, and better physio's e.t.c.

Not the best, but better - always better within a prudent budget in order to always try to improve.

We failed to do all of these things and this is the end result.

Why must it be a case of two steps forwards and one step back ? Why can't it just be three steps forward ?

Of course this doesn't gurantee success, but what it does do is signal to the paying public that the club IS ACTUALLY doing all the right things, and not JUST TALKING about doing the right things, like Southgate and Co continuously do. So when a slump does come they keep up their support.

Empty words, from well meaning, but ultimately from people with virtually nothing to offer but their passion.

It didn't work for Keegan, and it didn't work for Pearce, and it WON'T work for Southgate and Coops.

Fans aren't idiots. If they SEE that you're doing things right then they will stick with you and support you in your cause. When you're not, like now, they no longer turn up to games.

When new players arrive they give a press conference to introduce them to the fans. Why don't we do the same when we replace the PR men, or the scouts, or the physio's, or the coach's ?

Why can't we SEE AND HEAR who they are and what they've done and what they want to achieve HERE ?

THIS is the correct way to work. THIS is how you SHOW the fans that you are in fact doing the right things. THIS is how you keep the fans happy and on board.

Communication IS KEY.

Communication IS NON EXISTANT AT THIS CLUB.

In short, by doing all the right things ensures that losing a few games is just a blip and nothing more.

At the moment it's a lot more than just a blip because we didn't do any of these things and everyone knows it.

The dressing room HAS BEEN LOST because the players KNOW that the man steering the ship ISN'T up to the job.

The other night I was listening to some idiot on the radio, I think on one of Bernie's programmes, explaining why the club doesn't allow flags e.t.c. in the stadium. It was so utterly bad and it just summed up how utterly bad and out of touch the club are that I had to turn it off.

Go to any Italian game, or Spanish one and when you see the home end it gives you goosepimples. If you've ever been to Anfield you'll know that there's no better place to be when it comes to experiencing this feeling.

We don't have that here because the people in charge are old, fuddy duddy has beens that sit behind their desks with their fat guts and cups of tea, totally devoid of new ideas, totally devoid of the motivation required to keep on pushing ever higher, and are as out of touch with their fan base, as politicians are to voters.

It's PATHETIC.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | November 27, 2007 11:10 AM

Clive Road wrote...

I don't mind struggling in the table because I have grown up with Boro battling against the odds. I can live with that.

What I can't live with is a team that doesn't have bottle, a boss that can't motivate and fans who throw the towel in as soon as a goal goes in and spend more time and energy slagging their own players as supporting the team.

I think the team and the boss can be replaced but what about the crowd? Over the past few years I have become more and more ashamed of the new breed of Boro fans - fickle, whinging, spoilt rotten, demanding, ungrateful, stupid, vindictive, too quick to go on the radio or message boards and put the boot in.

PS Mogga and Bruce dream team!!!

Posted by: Clive Road  | November 27, 2007 11:14 AM

Sarah2671 wrote...

At the moment I can see so many similarites between Middlesbrough and England. We are going to be in the same position as England at the end of the season - relying on other teams to do us a favour in order to stay in the Premier League. Look what happened to England !!

If you look at the Premier League the managers that are doing well are either foreign (Arsene Wenger, Sven Goran Erikson, Rafael Benitez) or slightly older (Alex Ferguson, Harry Redknapp). Surely this must say something about the FA's coaching system and qualifications when the new, younger managers are struggling at the bottom.

I do agree that we have serious problems, especially how easy the players are giving up when the opposition score but there were a couple of positives from Saturday's performance.

Downing dealt with the supporters abuse and played quite well for a winger in a strikers position (he is never going to be a big tackler - we need to accept that). Adam Johnson and Gary O'Neil also worked their socks off for most of the match.

Southgate's comments that the team has to stick together to get out of this are getting very monotonous. From what I have seen over the last few games we need a lot more than group hugs and back slapping.

Southgate doesn't seem to see what the supporters see - a team in free-fall with players playing out of position and an ineffective leader with no game plan.

I also don't believe that the answer is in the February transfer window, as we will be buying exactly the same as we have now.

We also need to stop pinning our hopes on the return of two injured players - Mido will be gone for the African Nations Cup and Arca is good but one man doesn't make a team. The problems are a lot deeper than two injuries.

Middlesbrough supporters are used to the highs and lows that this club generates but there is only so much the average supporter can take. This is now starting to show by the comments on this web site and by the number of empty seats in the ground. Southgate is losing the fans and its only a matter of time before he loses the players - if not already.

Over to you Mr Gibson - the future of our club is in your hands !!!!!

Posted by: Sarah2671  | November 27, 2007 11:21 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Nigel(s)

I must admit I always advocated Tuncay up with Mido and Aliadierre more right sided or as John Powls says an impact sub.

It does seem odd that the only player other than Mido with a goalscoring record sits on the bench whilst Downing tries to be a support striker.

If need be, play Tucay with Aliadiere whilst we await Mido, give them a run because chopping and changing makes things worse. Settle on a style and formation and stick to it for a while. Injuries havent helped but as players come back it is a chance to build come consistency.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 27, 2007 11:22 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Clive Road - I don't boo at games, however could it be that the new breed of Boro fan demands value for money?

Also most of the new fans have never known the bad times.

Things need to change, and until fresh ideas are brought into all areas of the club, the fans will get upset and have every right to do so.

Supporting the Boro is not cheap

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 27, 2007 11:28 AM

Mr B wrote...

The whingeing fan thing isn't a new phenomena - I recall Big Jack moaning that the crowds were poor and didn't get behind the team.

Posted by: Mr B  | November 27, 2007 12:01 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

Just been watching a load of Tuncay's goals for Fenerbahce in Europe on youtube. 3 past Man U included !

Okay Fenerbahce at home are playing in front of a tribal hoard of fans with flags, fireworks and immense support. He is currently the all-time top scorer for Fenerbahce in European cups with 12 goals.

He was cited as an upcoming football star by Arsenal coach Arsène Wenger after the France-Turkey Confederations Cup match in 2003. In the same tournament, he won the Silver Ball and the Silver Shoe awards for being selected as the second best player of the tournament and being the second top-scorer respectively, with 3 goals and 1 assist.

I think the bloke is feeling a bit numb after watching the whole Villa match from the bench. He has pace and a greater goal scoring record than Aliadiere and should play against Reading now he has had a match off to rest.
He played as striker,left and right wing and scored goals from all positions.

My point is not to look at him but look at the other members of the Fenerbahce team to see how it enabled him to maximise his potential and consider that when selecting the team and formation.

I certainly think that the Boateng/ Cattermole midfield at the weekend was more about supressing villa than playing to our strengths. We were trying not to lose the game with that central midfield rather than trying to win it.

I think the team will play better at reading [ they can't play worse than in the second half v Villa]

Play people in their best possitions [Tuncay] and leave Alladierre on longer than an hour. No Cat and boat on together!
C'MON BORO!!!!!!!!!!

PS.Make the bench strong so we can push on in the second half as Coppell's men wont go to the pub at the hour mark.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | November 27, 2007 1:00 PM

jc wrote...

So Alan Smith says on GS: “He will dig deep and get out of this. He doesn’t suffer fools gladly. I think one problem he’s got is he’s got incredibly high standards. Sometimes when you are a manager you have to take a broader view and be a bit more sympathetic to other people’s shortcomings."

What do you think he is referring to there? Which fool(s) has he not suffered, but perhaps should have? Viduka? Yak? Mendieta? Any ideas AV? I'm intrigued.

Posted by: jc  | November 27, 2007 1:05 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

If it happens good piece of business by Brum to get McLeish in as manager, certainly think he is better than Bruce.

A couple of Rangers fans I know were quite impressed by him stating that things only went wrong whilst Rangers were getting the club they could afford by reducing costs.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 27, 2007 1:07 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Who cares what Alan Smith has to say? He is hardly going to slag off his mate.

So 3 of the 5 that are fighting a relegation battle will soon have new managers. This can only help them and its going to be a long hard winter for the Boro.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 27, 2007 3:44 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

Just noticed in your response to TB re John Powls becoming a hermit that you called it post traumatic defeat syndrome.

I fear it is more serious than that, I suspect his fear is that it is becoming pre traumatic defeat syndrome.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 27, 2007 3:45 PM

Nigel wrote...

I read that Raul has had an 'oxygen room' built in his house in an attempt to reverse the effects of ageing and to recover more quickly between games. Perhaps Steve Gibson could turn the Riverside into a giant oxygen tent and at a stroke reverse the effects of declining crowds and footballing ineptitude. Clutching at straws?....maybe.

Posted by: Nigel  | November 27, 2007 3:45 PM

jiffy wrote...

Alan smith also said:

“Boro are nowhere near the third worst team in that division.�

He is right. The 3rd worse team in the divison is miles ahead of Boro. Only Derby are level with Boro at the moment.

Re Fickle fans

Boro v Aston Villa crowd 23900

Bottom of the Championship Norwich v Coventry 24800

Fans getting the team they deserve - looks about right. When next season Boro are where Norwich are now they'll be luckly to make 12000 let alone 24.

**AV writes: I should point out that Lambie never said 'team Teesside deserves.' He said team we could 'AFFORD'.

Posted by: jiffy  | November 27, 2007 3:53 PM

bradinho wrote...

I too get a bit tired by the "New Breed" of Boro fan with no grasp of reality - clubs go through bad spells FACT. Get over it and get behind the team, regardless of whether you support the manager or chairman. Getting rid of either still leaves exactly the same team !

The squad we have is good enough (although a cheeky bid for Lita would interest me) if we play to our best players strengths -

Get the best out of Tuncay I could see him fitting easily into Wenger's current Arsenal team a la Rosicky, Hleb and Cesc....

Find a way to play with Downing's ability to get a ball over - incidently Tuncay is good in the air and could benefit from Downing's crosses.

The back line should be a no-brainer - a former internation captain in charge of an all International back-line !!!

What is up with midfielders nowadays? Why are they only a Def_Mid or Att-Mid? I thought the point was that midfielders were good all-rounders e.g. Souness, Ince, Emerson this is something Cat should aim to emulate.

Fans are fickle but we have a lot to be proud of and therefore we should rally behind the team and let them know how passionately we want this club to not only stay where it is but to push upwards and achieve something.

C'mon Boro !

Posted by: bradinho  | November 27, 2007 3:54 PM

john sully wrote...

bradinho. what is making us fickle fans so upset is the fact that if we were in charge, we would do it so much differently.

team selection is bananas, transfer sagas are a joke. people have to speak out. by the way, no matter what happens i will support the boro. but it is fustrating.

Posted by: john sully  | November 27, 2007 5:57 PM

Score Draw wrote...

Of the 3 strikers we use, only one of them can show evidence of being a goalscorer at some point in their career. You can type Tuncay into YouTube and see that he can score goals.

From Hutchison, Craddock, Adiliadere and Tuncay to choose from 999.99% of football fans and managers would choose TUNCAY because of his record.

It's painful to see him treated the way Maccarone was treated. Let him have a chance up front for god's sake.
The more I think about Tuncay being an unused sub last saturday the more I realise that the normally calm and rational Southgate is losing the plot.


Posted by: Score Draw  | November 27, 2007 6:32 PM

robin mitton wrote...

Simmo and other thick thinkers,

Get lost you useless berk (s).

Can reveal now that we are going to work with Paris St Germain and Nike in France.

We hope to be able to help the first team from January onwards but that will be up to the manager although our first initiative will involve the organizing of junior international summer schools.

Soon we hope to sign an agreement with one of Germany's biggest clubs and already there the signs are more than encouraging so we should be signed up there too very soon...everything takes time eh?

I have written to Steve Gibson personally so I cannot really say yet what I would really like to say here...for the moment anyway.

My new life begins in Paris next week which is great, and yet my heart hangs heavy at the thought of how quickly backwards our football club is moving.

Yours in full solidarity BORO fans,

Robin Mitton
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS Ltd

Posted by: robin mitton  | November 28, 2007 1:17 AM

nigel (mumbai) wrote...

I'm getting more frustrated as the debate goes on - the goldfish is now in serious danger of going out the window, fish tank and all...

Jiffy - Norwich are a classic example of how communicating effectively with your fans, having an effective marketing strategy in place and showing them that you value them pays off in real financial terms.

Boro are evidence of the costs of not doing any of these. The difference in attendances is the most visible expression of this.

AV - 'team we (Teesside) can afford': yes, for as long as we limit ourselves to focusing almost exclusively on this area. It's more than an insult it's a complete misrepresentation of the importance of gate receipts and the opportunities afforded by the global platform we get courtesy of the PL. For the CEO of the club to have such a limiting mindset is debilitating.

Bradinho - you're a better man than I am: I agree with most of your suggestions re players and the team, I'm sure most others see it the same way, but a good coach can take a group of players and weld them in to a team that is greater than the sum of their individual ability.

It takes something special to keep cheering when we have a Coach who achieves just the opposite, and who leaves Tuncay - who arguably has most potential to score goals - a spectator as we draw another blank from another pointless performance.

When Boro bought Tuncay it seemed to me at the time that it had more to do with the fact that he had a profile the club could sell to the fans, there was no transfer fee to pay, and he might just turn out to be really good.

I don't think they bought him as a player who they'd researched and identified as someone who would fit easilly into the new plan - I don't think they still have any idea where to play him or how to get the best out of him.

Posted by: nigel (mumbai)  | November 28, 2007 7:14 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Two press conferences this morning, McLeish to Brum and Jewell to the Rams (oddly Forest fans call them something else allied to the Welsh Mountains where the men are men and the sheep run very fast). As matches against both theses teams are coming up soon it is imperative we get some momentum going sharpish.

As we play Arsenal a week Saturday and the Rams a week later that suggests sharpish means this weekend at Reading. We cannot get away with putting Downing up front alongside Aliadiere. Working on the assumption we wont have Mido the only apparent alternative is to give Tuncay a run.

In the midfield competition is increasing so Gate has the job of picking the rabbits least likely to freeze in the headlights. I dont think Boat and Cat will work but there have been so many formations tried out I think confusion has set in. It looks to be a case of picking out of a hat containing Downing, Jinky, maybe Arca, Rocky, Cat, Boat, O'Neill.

At the back it looks as if Pogo will play as will Young and Woodie. The choice appears to be whether Wheater continues to partner Woodie or Taylor comes in. The choice seems to be between the young lads.

I must admit I am getting ahead of myself cos there are still three days of training at Rockcliffe to come.

Talking to my colleague, a Rams fan, they are quite pleased with Jewell and can see a chink of light because they are playing the three NEast teams in their next four matches. That starts with a trip to the mackems on saturday.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 28, 2007 9:20 AM

Never Happy wrote...

When Tuncay was signed, we were told that the Boro now had a worldwide scouting system that would bring the best to the Riverside.

So the club has now informed us that we were to get a top manager and signings that would shock the football world, presumably found by the worldwide scouting network.

So far, no top manager, no top players and poor Tuncay, found by the scouts and destroyed by Southgate.

If you signed a contract when you got your season ticket and the above was included, most fans would be asking for their money back under the trade descriptions act.

If Boro are relegated what will happen to the sky money and transfer fees from players who leave?

Will it be spent on team rebuilding, or will we be told that due to smaller crowds it will dissapear into a black hole within the club?

Boro are heading over the edge of the cliff and SG seems to be sat back doing nothing.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 28, 2007 9:26 AM

David Morrison wrote...

Well there looks to have been two big developments at the bottom of the pl this morning. Jewell to derby and mcleish to Brum.

Not sure derby will stay up but mcleish shud be able to keep brum away from the drop so lets have a look at what this means.

1 new managers may have a hooneymoon period where they win a few games but then ultimately they start dipping again.

2 the transfer window is closing in and sunderland, brum, derby,wigan,fulham,reading look all set to go and sign a few players.

3. these player nead time to settle and get used to there new manager.

4. we have a settled side and a good crop of young players and are only 3 points off mid table.

5. lets be positive and try to get sum much needed enthusiam behind this team the more we barrack them the worse it will get.

6. Mddlesbrough FC please lets get sum sort realtionship back with the real fans. You are loosing much needed support and it only takes a one small gesture to start it off.

my suggestion..... drop ticket prices get the place packed out and give the fans sumthing to shout about. if we go down we will loose money anyway so why not drop prices and put on some buses to away games and give something back...

Posted by: David Morrison  | November 28, 2007 10:19 AM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - Has DGL been told he can leave? Who the hell will sign him? Who would take him on a free transfer?

Another poor Southgate signing.

**AV writes: Pohang Steelers here we come.....

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 28, 2007 10:21 AM

james wrote...

I do not think for one minute you will publish this letter, you have a job to keep and connections to maintain, but I am age seventy years and a long standing supporter and follower of the fortunes of “the Boro�.

So I hope you bear with me and through reading this letter get a feel of the frustrations and feeling of the average football fan.

I could have written to Bernie but he is in enough trouble with the M.F.C. management so I picked you.

I have not been to a game since they close Ayresome park and decided to build the new stadium in a wilderness. Talk about a lost opportunity, but then its familiar territory, "in the wilderness�

What do I think ?

1 the management

Always money first supporters second

The Management Run the club like the Battersea dogs home bringing in players who are past their best or injury prone, or even bringing them in to get them back on the field ready for their next transfer to continue their careers.

2 the players

The players seem to have built into their contract holidays at home on sick leave. It would appear that if they are injured then insurance pays their wages.

I cannot think of any other reason that so called key players are allowed to wander the world when, We do have so it is said, one of, if not the best training facilities in the premier league. Why are they not at the ground getting fit under M.F.C. supervision?

I will not name, names, because this would go on and on but most are unfit, lack direction , ideas, imagination, desire, need, they �perform� because they are the unlucky ones that get picked. You can see the look on their faces when the ref say three more added minutes.

3 all teams/ management and media

you all make a good living out of “the sport� and all know full well that football is corrupt from top to the bottom it is full of hidden secrets deeper than the so called masons.

If only someone would break the code of honour that keeps football the way it is. Until that day we will never know why clough was never allowed to play for England or never become the manager.

We see the same old clan coming out of the tunnel to waste another ninety minutes of their free time playing for England and they only get up to £200,000 a week and a failed manager can get £3m yet our small grass roots teams get £3000 for the season to bring on the youngsters

Fed up, yes; frustrated, yes; will I every get the answers, no! Do I want to see the Boro win the premiership YES YES YES.

If you read this thanks, if not Its got it off my chest

james

Posted by: james  | November 28, 2007 10:44 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Do you think that Steve Gibson would be prepared to accept relegation as part of his overall aim in establishing Gareth Southgate as the head of an academy-based club?

The noises coming out of the Riverside at the moment seem to point to this – stating that Boro can’t compete with bigger clubs in terms of money so they must adopt a different model.

I think this is a false analysis as a good manager will always get more out of players than an inexperienced one.
Also a good manager is able to find a style of football to suit his available resources, plus a good manager is able to establish which players need to be brought in to improve the team.

It’s fair to say that GS has not yet given an indication that he is a good manager but by the way that the younger players appreciate him as a good bloke to talk to he sounds like he has all the attributes that would make a first rate number 2 – which is also an important role e.g. as Peter Taylor was to Brian Clough.

So I would ask SG and GS to re-evaluate the situation and start looking for a Number 1 that can work with Southgate.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | November 28, 2007 11:08 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

James

Welocme to rhe board and keep posting, many of your themes have been covered in the past and AV is always willing to let the themes run as long as we dont transgress into areas that may lead to legal difficulties.

Just beware of a knock at your door in the dead of night form someone wearing an MFC stewards uniform.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 28, 2007 11:15 AM

pat mcdonough Dubai wrote...

Tuncay up front with Mido? I don't think so judging by the report on this foreign website today :

"Ahmed Hossam 'Mido' will miss the African Cup of Nations (CAN) Ghana 2008 due to injury, the Egyptian striker announced.

"I won't be in Ghana," a frustrated Mido told FilGoal.com via phone from England.

Tests showed that Mido suffers an inflammation in the adductor muscle and needs rest for 10 weeks. The Premiership club are yet to announce the news of Mido's lay-off."

Come on Boro, lets hear the truth. Mido was to be our saviour. Who now?

Posted by: pat mcdonough Dubai  | November 28, 2007 11:26 AM

Nigel wrote...

GS not playing Tuncay regularly has been the mystery of the season for me. He clearly favours Aliadiere, a player who has a proven goal scoring record, ie the last five years proves he can't score.

Tuncay we know can score, what we don't know is can he score in the prem. We don't know because GS hasn't bothered to find out. We need Tuncay up front now, with Mido when fit and Aliadiere otherwise.

We don't need Downing up front, he needs to be on the wing or left midfield(maybe).

GS - please keep it simple, football isn't a complicated game.

Rob Mitton - your insults to other posters show you to be the man you are.

Posted by: Nigel  | November 28, 2007 11:48 AM

mark j wrote...

Why did we get rid of Macaronne , he was treated the same way as Mendi is being treated and its coming back to haunt us.

Posted by: mark j  | November 28, 2007 11:49 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Pat

Checked the website you mentioned, if true it is a real blow. When I posted the assumption of no Mido I thought we would get a couple of games before he left for Ghana but not yet.

Could be that MFC dont know the full extent of the injury, diagnosis is not their strong point, nor is treatment.

We will just have to get on with it.

**AV writes: The way I read the various bit sof the jigsaw was that Boro had assessed the injury, scans have shown an abductor tear and have estimated ten weeks.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 28, 2007 11:55 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

Is it the original injury that hasnt cleared up or a new one possibly stemming from efforts to get fit?

It doesnt matter really, all it reinforces is my view that the resources what we have are what we have to use to get out of our current pickle. John Wayne is not wading ashore at the South Gare with the cavalry.

We will just have to knuckle down and get on with it.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 28, 2007 12:07 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Boro are Mido's (Ahmed Hossam Hussein Abdelhamid) eighth club since he started professional football in 1999 - 2000.

Why should he be any different at Boro to his other clubs.

Boro knew he was unfit and had a bad reputation when they signed him. Its looking like yet another poor Southgate signing.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 28, 2007 12:07 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Quote taken from the Garmin website

The Garmin mindset:
We don’t just design and sell products, we embrace the lifestyles. From aviation to marine, automotive to fitness, wireless solutions to outdoor recreation, Garmin employees are in the air, on the water, in the woods, behind the wheel and on the run. And we’re always thinking of ways to adapt and improve. At Garmin, you never know how the next great idea will be born. But you know it’s coming soon.

Prehaps our sponsors mindset can be passed onto the club to be used on and off the pitch

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 28, 2007 12:15 PM

robin mitton wrote...

Dear Nigel,

Warwick, Oxford, Kent and London are the universities I've had the immense pleasure of studying at. Where did you go? If you come back "Well I've been to the university of life!" I'll treat you with the silence such imbecility deserves.

Many of 'our' bloggers possess rare skills of analysis and research and deserve full praise for that - uni educated or not.

The comments by Simmo belie a personality which is either self-interested, prejudiced or truly gormless. Did you know that our football club is quickly gaining the title "thick man of Europe"?

"Foul" I here you cry and foul it bloody well is! How the management at Boro have got away with such crass and alienating decisions and policy making initiatives I will never know.

I spent 6 months up in the north east putting together a fantastic junior international summer school only to be told last Easter that Lamb didn't want it.

I can't wait to work with the continental clubs we are signing up with. One of the reasons being that they treat their fans with care and respect.

What a stupid, gormless culture we have in this country. We need positive and radical change in this country with care given to all that morally should underpin our civilisation.

I challenge you now Nigel to go and ask ALL the relevant questions to people like Lamb and see how far you get.

Robin Mitton
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS

Posted by: robin mitton  | November 28, 2007 1:34 PM

robin mitton wrote...

Dear AV,

I can well understand why you didn't state the reason given by Keith Lamb about why he was so concerned about the home stay part of the programme.

[Edit]

Keith Lamb is welcome to try and sue me.

Robin Mitton
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS

**AV writes: Maybe but it's not you being sued that I am worried about. The publisher (that's me) is the one who takes the rap under English libel law.

As you know it was not just the reason you gave that I took out but the conclusions that you drew from it which were grossly defamatory and a no-brainer in court, and as you have been a t four universities I will assume you understand that. What you say may be true but without documenatry evidence there is no protection in law.

Regular readers will be aware of my policy to allow a free and frank discussion of every aspect of the Boro and let posters go right up to the limits of "fair comment." At times I have even allowed a lot of things to go that maybe I shouldn't (I have given you a lot of leeway for instance) but I must work on the assumption that everything it is being read by the club and possibly their lawyers.


Posted by: robin mitton  | November 28, 2007 2:13 PM

Billy wrote...

Mr Mitton, what a charming man you are.

Posted by: Billy  | November 28, 2007 2:28 PM

Score Draw wrote...

We should have a chance on Saturday because Reading's goalkeeper is almost as bad as ours.

Southgate needs to be positive and proactive in his approach. I can't stand waiting for the postmortem at 5:15 on Saturday night.

He should start by boosting the players confidence. Go on TV and shout it out loud that Downing, ONeil, Arca, Woodgate and Pogatetz are players that any club want to have in their squads. Praise the academy boys don't use them as an excuse for our position. But most of all he needs to show Tuncay that he has faith in him.

Silence from the manager means the pressure builds up on the team. He needs to say something positive, something to uplift the team. Take the debate away from relegation, getting the sack, falling attendances and losing Mido,.

When we win on Saturday (which we will) he should ask the fans to 'pile in against Arsenal and promise to have a go at Arsene's superstars. Use the game as springboard.
We would expect to get beat by them anyway so it's hardly high risk and the fans love a bit of pre-match input.

He has to change the negative pessimistic atmosphere.
Our squad is so much better than Derby's, Wigan's, Sunderlands , Birminghams, Readings and Bolton's (post christmas) that he should be confident of avoiding relegation.

Posted by: Score Draw  | November 28, 2007 2:58 PM

Ady wrote...

Spot on AV, as usual no punches pulled and telling it like it is.

I'm afraid I'm another who thinks Gate's time is up, time to cut the losses and admit he's just not up to the job. Sad to see Jewell go to Derby as I figured he'd be the man.

Much as I love Mogga, I don't want to see him back here, and why? Because one day he'll be in Gate's position and everything won't be rosy. It would break my heart to see Tony Mowbray being booed by a Middlesbrough crowd, and one day it would happen.

As for the calls for Mendieta, please people, wake up and smell what's under your nose - he's had about 3 good games while he's been here, he's slow, can't tackle and whilst he certainly has flair, flair isn't gonna get us out of this massive hole.

We need to shore up the defence, and dear lord please bring in someone who will shoot - we expect to score without having shots!

So Mr Gibson it's over to you, what do you want from your club? The next couple of months wil make that blatantly obvious, myself I'm expecting the championship and a home grown team next season.

Posted by: Ady  | November 28, 2007 3:07 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Robin - pot, kettle and black come to mind when you posted

'The comments by Simmo belie a personality which is either self-interested, prejudiced or truly gormless.'

You may not be gormless but from your first post to this blog your whole objective seems to have been self publicity for your company.

Your comment about going to university just makes you sound arrogant and pompous, know wonder you and Keith Lamb don't get on.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 28, 2007 3:15 PM

Nigel wrote...

Robin Mitton, Four universities?! very impressive, if you'd only been to three I'd call you Diana Ross!

I'm not sure bragging about attending four universities does your arguement much good. I have a close friend who is a Professor of Economics and only managed to attend one university (LSE). I have another who is a Profesor of Zoology who attended one university (Cambridge) and another who having attended one university (Cambridge) retired at the age of 35 having made a shed load in the City.

I don't feel any need to list my academic achievements, but this post may give you a hint. My previous post was simply stating my opinion that there is no call to insult other posters, we are all entitled to our various opinions. You clearly have an axe to grind with MFC, but the style of your posts wins you little support.

Posted by: Nigel  | November 28, 2007 3:31 PM

Diablo "Derek" (Universito de la Darlingtono) wrote...

If seen some supercilious meffs on t'internet in my time but this snooty Mitton gadge takes the biscuit.

Posted by: Diablo "Derek" (Universito de la Darlingtono)  | November 28, 2007 6:37 PM

eddie fletcher wrote...

...and the breaking news we are £13,000,000 in the red. That's a lot of zeros! That's allot of questions?????

Does it explain our present situation?

Should we be looking at the ability of GS?

Should we be looking at the effort of the squad?

I think not!

We should be looking at the people who pull the purse strings! YOU ARE A DISGRACE. ARE YOUR PERSONAL BANK BALANCES AS PATHETIC AS YOUR CLUBS'?

You have to "feel" for GS knowing what a financial state his employers are in and the limitations and burden he has to carry in his attempts to strengthen the squad.

No wonder the Duke and Yak parted company - WE COULD NOT AFFORD THEM! Their replacements are obviously on less money - call me cynical but in my experience of the REAL Private Sector - "YOU PAY PEANUTS AND YOU GET MONKEYS"

Is this what we partially have? A squad of MEN and MONKEYS?

Is it time for SG to go down the Mallon route and try to attract some foreign investment from Oil Rich Distant Shores?

Posted by: eddie fletcher  | November 28, 2007 8:08 PM

Gemster1988 wrote...

Right now, personally, I think getting rid of GS would be a mistake. Hear me out here..

I was all for him getting the position (I actually wanted CC as manager and GS as assistant), and OK so he hasn't had 2 good seasons. Fair enough.

But you can't expect an unexperienced manager to walk straight into the job and know exactly what he's doing. That'd be like throwing me into engineering after I trained as a video/music editor. It's going to take some time for him to adapt. They usually say it takes two seasons to adapt.

Then OK, at least give him his two seasons. Even if we have to bring in help, which I think would be the better option, then so be it.

Alright, we can all see we're going to get relegated this season unless something drastic is done, and done sooner rather than later.

But I still maintain my faith in GS and his back-room staff. Dad says I think the world of GS, I don't. I just think you've got to have faith in your team and everyone involved within it. Otherwise, what would be the point in calling yourself a supporter if you have no faith in your team? (I'm not having a go at fans here, honestly!!)

I'm classed as this "new generation Boro fan", but I'm in my tenth season as a season ticket holder, and I'm not about to throw it in if we get relegated. It'll only make me more determined to get one next season to *try* and help the team get back up.

The team need the fans backing now, regardless of our current situation. They always need our support, but we're not giving them it. And I understand why, I really do, even though I think it's wrong. So I have no right to be telling fans to stop getting on their backs; it's all understandable in the current climate. Which is why I'm not.

I'm simply asking for the fans to be more united, even if we're not so much with the team at the moment, at least let's be as one in the stadium..?

All the leg pulling when I travel away to friend's because of the town's newly-aquired title and football club is undeserved. But I am so immensly proud to call myself a Boro fan and Smoggie, I really couldn't care whether we're the worst team in the world. I'd still support them with all my heart!

In the meantime though, God Gibson needs to see GS cannot do this on his own. Keep everyone we've got at the club now, just bring in that additional help. Please. I've been to reserve games which have had better atmospheres than games this season!

p.s. Statistics show, we have one of the best medical staff and facilities in the Prem. Why are people saying we should get rid of medical staff? I'm confused, sorry.

Posted by: Gemster1988  | November 28, 2007 8:23 PM

eddie fletcher wrote...

Last post edited

More "I think so" and more "I think nots"

...and the breaking news we are £13,000,000 in the red. That's allot of zeros! That's allot of questions?????

Does it explain our present situation?

I think not!

Should we be looking at the ability of GS?

I think not!

Should we be looking at the effort of the squad?

I think not!

We should be looking at the people who pull the purse strings! YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE.

ARE YOUR PERSONAL BANK BALANCES AS PATHETIC AS YOUR CLUBS'?

I think not!

You have to "feel" for GS knowing what a financial state his employers are in and the limitations and burden he has to carry in his attempts to strengthen the squad.

No wonder the Duke and Yak parted company - WE COULD NOT AFFORD THEM! Their replacements are obviously on less money - call me cynical but in my experience of the REAL Private Sector - "YOU PAY PEANUTS AND YOU GET MONKEYS"

Is this what we partially have? A squad of MEN and MONKEYS?

I think so!

Is it time for SG to go down the Mallon route and try to attract some foreign investment from Oil Rich Distant Shores?

Well maybe!

I’d like to think so!

…and why - because ££££ makes the world go round!


Posted by: eddie fletcher  | November 28, 2007 8:32 PM

Shaun wrote...

I was interested to read Malcolm Crosby's comments in the Gazette; if Southgate treats the players right then why aren't they doing him a favour and putting in a performance?

I'm growing ever more worried by our increasingly precarious situation. Gibbo has shot himself in the foot by hiring a manager with no experience and at the moment, I don't see anything positive to take from our current position.

I'd like to say that I think the time has come for Southgate to go but I don't see any other candidate out there that could come in and do the job...

Posted by: Shaun  | November 28, 2007 10:38 PM

old Bobender wrote...

Why would relegation be so bad ? Better to visit the Riverside fortnightly expecting to see goals and a win than the current struggles to avoid defeat. And please don't tell me me that relegation would cost "us" 30 million quid ! None of it would ever have gone into my pocket....or yours.

Posted by: old Bobender  | November 29, 2007 12:45 AM

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