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Decline The Billionaires' Indecent Proposals

Posted by on October 29, 2007 1:26 PM | 

SOME BORO fans are getting jittery as the global carve up of the Premiership continues apace and their cash strapped local club are left behind. American club owners were in town for the NFL Wembley beano this weekend and discussing their exciting plans for the future of the Premiership and it was a party to which Boro weren’t invited.

As foreign billionaires slice up the TV rights cash cow amid vows to buy Ronaldinho, Messi and Jermaine Defoe, some anxious Teessiders look on with jealously and fear. Jealousy at the thought of the £50m splash that seems to be the post-takeover norm for even a middle-ranked club - and fear that the stakes on the Premiership table will rise beyond Boro’s budget and cast us into the Championship abyss.

Now many are even starting to mutter the ultimate heresy and are talking about cashing in local hero Steve Gibson for a foreign billionaire businessman that can help them “compete” in a league now almost entirely shaped by spending.

We know the power of the pocket. Boro’s launch pad into the big time was Gibson’s spectacular spending spree a decade ago that saw off interest from glamour clubs to bring an in-demand England international, the reigning Brazilian player of the year and a Champions League final goalscorer to the Riverside.

But now that outlay to fund Boro’s quest for glory is a distant memory and, anyway, is chicken feed in today’s terms. The expenditure needed to underpin a crack at the top six is now measured in scores of millions - and the fear is that we are being left behind.

Hong Kong businessman Carson Yeung is poised to complete his £50m plus takeover at Birmingham and has promised big bucks for transfers.

That follows big money buy-outs at one time mid-table rivals West Ham, Aston Villa, Portsmouth, Newcastle, Sunderland and Manchester City in the past year that have pushed their financial clout into a totally different league.

Manchester United and Liverpool are US owned after deals that dwarf the mid-table acquisitions, Chelsea is funded by the bottomless pockets of one of the world’s richest men, Spurs are part of the global ENIC venture capital outfit while Arsenal is subject to a battle between rival US and Russian groups and a Stateside investment firm is weighing up a £50m bid for Blackburn.

Meanwhile American dairy billionaire Robert Kraft, who failed to take over Liverpool two years ago, has admitted he is still looking for a slice of Premiership action - and there are plenty of Boro fans ready to pimp their club for him.

Make no mistake, gratitude to Gibbo would go out of the window with local identity and pride if they thought they could seal a Faustian pact with the Philadelphia big cheese. Many are just queuing up to hand over their hopes and dreams to any Chuck S Gibbs Jr or Sergei Gibsonov that comes along without asking any questions as to their motives, staying power or their track record so long as they stump up the cash.

But we should be wary of the corrosive effect the rush to sell our heritage to outside investors will have. And we must be vigilant about to whom we are ready to sell.

Manchester City’s decision to sell to Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Thai prime minister deposed in a coup, came on the same day he was charged with criminal corruption in his home country, accused of spiriting billions of dollars of foreign aid out of the country.

Human rights campaigners and Amnesty International have accused his regime of a draconian ‘war on drugs’ in which there were 2,500 extra-judicial killings. But hey, he splashed out on Elano, Bianchi and Sven Goran Eriksson so that’s alright.

Attempts by Human Rights Watch to raise questions about his CV with the Premier League were met with assurances that they have stingent measures in place to stop undesirables buying into their clubs and insisted that a man who the Thai government want extradited on accusations of systematic fraud, nepotism and giving the go-ahead for violent supression of political dissent passed their 'fit and proper person test'. You have to ask, given possession of a big enough cheque book who would fail?

Fans must realise that the game is being packaged up and sold to the highest bidder and that an outsider arriving with a big pot of money is not acting as a white knight motivated by 'sporting glory'. Far from it. Any such cash injection comes at a price. An investor wants a hefty return and while much of that will come from TV rights some will come through higher prices, more cynical merchandising, more ruthless commercialisation, more money making friendlies in Dubai and Japan.

In many cases the takeovers are 'leveraged' funded by loans secured against the assets of the target club itself so the initial too-good-to-be-true transfer cash boost is added to the overall company debt leaving a millstone for the future, long after the lucrative current revenue streams have been plundered and the profits exported.

Imported billionaire badge- kissers who have no love for the game or understanding of what makes their club tick and see it only as a opportunity to make a quick buck is a recipe for long-term disaster. The NFL influenced US faction have talked casually about playing Premiership games in the States as a neat marketing gimmick without realising the damage that could do. Will franchising and expansion to the Glasgow Celtics and Cardiff Dragons be far behind?

The integrity of the game as a distinct and dynamic domestic cultural force with strong links to communities is under threat from owners who do not understand that a club is a precious local resource that transcends matchday, a key to identity and prestige in the towns they represent. That can not be bought and sold.

Fans have an unbreakable organic relationship with clubs forged by generations and that, not league position, is their real strength. We should not wish that away for a transfer fund that may only move us up half-a-dozen places and leave a long term legacy of financial uncertainty.
For short-sighted Boro fans to think of brushing Gibson aside and offering up the club to any foreign chancer or robber baron ready to spend £40m on players but who does not care on jot for Teesside or the team is self-destructive folly.

Whatever criticisms some may have - and when the team are struggling it is inevitable there will be many - Gibson’s sincerity, commitment and pride in the club is beyond doubt. For the past decade Gibson drive and vision has been the motor that has driven Boro forward and his personal kudos in the game is a major asset, not to mention the tens of millions that have been invested in the team, the training facilities and the academy without conditions, without any return and with only the good of the club in mind.

Taking Boro within the Bulkhaul corporate structure has insulated the club from economic volatility and helped ensure it remains a top flight fixture against a background of falling crowds and rising player wages that otherwise would be unsustainable for a club of this size.
He has ensured that we do not need to sell out to a profiteer, even if such a shark would be interested in unfashionable Boro, as we have discussed before. Not that Gibbo would go. He has unequivocally said that Boro is not for sale. And for that we should be grateful.


Comments (95)

tonyblack wrote...

An interesting article AV and not one without merits, especially regarding the moral question of the new Man City owner. Should he be guilty of what he's being accused of. I for one wouldn't want success at any cost or any price.

However, the more I read your articles and the more I have to sadly conclude that you are a more intelligent, more informed version of a Bernie Slaven, but a Bernie Slaven nevertheless in which you dare not question what needs to be questioned because you fear / your boss fears falling out with the very people ( MFC ) that fill your back pages and keep you in buisness.

Is this what it means to be a journalist these days ?

Your PR blurb says that you want to " get behind the headlines to flesh out the stories that Boro fans are talking about. "

So why do you have to produce such a butt kissing, Berniesque article at such a time, when you should instead be giving the man a warning about where the club is headed and how we all feel as fans in a bid to re inkindle what has long since lost in the man ?

In this article you say " imported billionaire badge- kissers who have no love for the game or understanding of what makes their club tick ".

Can you honestly say that Mr Gibson has made a good job of this " understanding " over the last few years and that he has demonstrated that he knows what he makes this club tick ?

How many times have we talked about how disenfranchised the fans feel from the club in your blog ?

Who is to blame for this ?

You go on to talk about " Gibson's drive and vision "

Is it visionary to employ a person as your clubs manager, someone who has never managed before and then to allow him to employ the very same as his right hand man?

Where is the knowledge, the experience, the ability to motivate, to man manage, to be able to communicate with the fans ? He and Coops have ABSOLUTELY NONE of these. The way he talks and the things he says are truly cringeworthy.

Isn't it better, sorry, more visionary to employ the very best people for the job ?

Are you seriously telling me that his decision to employ Gareth Southgate was visionary ?

Come on AV, it was an absolute joke to appoint him and if you're honest you know it because you're obviously a very intelligent and astute man.

Is it visionary to then publicly back such an unproven man for the next five years before seeing if he is in fact any good ? Only a fool would do this.

Where are the visionary policies for getting bums on seats ? Where was this visionary philosophy when it came to booting off the most popular radio commentary from our airwaves in order to replace it with utter emotionless rubbish ?

I have praised Steve Gibson glowingly in many of my posts and I will continue to do so and I will be forever grateful.

But his decisions of late and the clubs behaviour towards the fans have been what can only be described as farcical and a slap in the face and as such, at the very least, merit a bit of balance and honesty from you when you right about him and the club and from your paper, because what published today in that paper only serves to paper over the obvious cracks and to silence the very people on your blog that you say you want to incisively engage.

Why have you NEVER posted a FULL page article about these things ? Why have you NEVER questioned in the way that I and others do and have done for an eternity ?

We'll talk again when we get relegated or just manage to scrape out of being relegated by the skin of our teeth and then we'll talk again about this visionary man that you seem so unwilling / so unable to question, when questions are what are needed to be asked at this time given where we are in the league and the record of the man that he forced upon us.

To suggest that this is just a bad run is simply not factual and to dismiss it as such along with those " moaners " who see it as more simply isn't fair to us either as we are GENUINELY concerened by matters on and off the field.

Why DO you find it so hard to question this man ?

Is he really now beyond tough questioning and reproach just because of his past glories ?

I'm not wishing to offend you here AV, but simply to engage with you as your PR states and asks and to understand. So please engage with me and explain to me where I am wrong on the specific points that I have raised and why you have not had the guts / ability / power to reaise them for yourself.

Your article today COULD have begun by praisng Steve Gibson, because I totally agree with all the glowing words that you have for what he has done and also his " sincerity, commitment and pride in the club is beyond doubt." I really couldn't agree more.

But where you and I will have to agree to differ is that I belive that you then could have and should have fired a MUCH NEEDED warning shot to him about what I have just spoken about and what many people in here talk about bloody week, before we really do end up back in the Championship, because mark my words, this is how we're going to end up unless we wake these people up.

TB

**AV writes: I do not write anything for the benefit of Steve Gibson, the club or the shareholders of Trinity Mirror. I write only what I believe to be true. Naive and idealistic maybe, bad for the career path, possibly, but that is what you get from me and it will always be the case.

As I have said repeatedly over the years there is much to criticise about the way the club is run and its relationship with fans and I will never shirk from that.

But I have also repeatedly said that whatever the problems the answer is most definitely NOT to hand the club over to a bigger investor looking soley for profit and who has no feel for the club or the area and who will saddle the club with long term debt as they chase a short term killing.

For me the battle is one to democractise the club, to transform it through the imput and influence of supporters. We need to ensure control stays on Teesside and if there is a golden share up for grabs that it goes to fans.

Gibson and Lamb have both stated that they are just custodians of the club and that it belongs to the town. That is the key reason it should not be for sale.

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 1:07 AM

Andy, the Hague wrote...

Well said Anthony. When the Premiership stops spinning and the laundry is dry there will, undoubtedly, be tears...

Posted by: Andy, the Hague  | October 31, 2007 6:24 AM

Nick wrote...

Vickers is confused. As Chubby Brown might have said, there are only two kinds of owners: good ones and bad ones. Local types are not exclusively good and foreigners are not exclusively bad.

And billionaires are not responsible for the commercialisation of English football -- that's been going on for at least the past 15 years, or hasn’t he noticed? Indeed, billionaire-run clubs are the least commercial.

Look at Abramovich. He didn’t invest in Chelsea to cynically make money and he didn’t run up debts to buy the club. In fact, he actually paid off the club’s debts and his vast wealth allows him to run the club without worrying about profitability -- precisely the opposite of what Vickers is banging on about.

Gibson, on the other hand, counts the pennies, which is why ticket prices remain high and seats go unsold.

Look at Thaksin. Again, he is not in it for the money and didn’t fund the acquisition with debt. The guy’s a billionaire and far more savoury than half the blokes who used to run football clubs in this country -- if there was any merit to the charges against him (brought by an unelected military junta) we would have extradited him by now.

Thaksin and Abramovich have both delivered what all football fans want: ambition.

And what of Gibson? He is not some untouchable messiah -- he's just another rich egoist who gets his kicks from owning the local football club.

Given that he runs Boro as a business, rather than bankrolling it, what is his role now anyway? What difference would it make if he sold the club to the fans and left the current executives in charge?

We can all see what billionaires bring to clubs like Chelsea and Man City, but what is the point of an owner who doesn’t bankroll the club?

Posted by: Nick  | October 31, 2007 7:34 AM

Si wrote...

Sad to say this Vic, but Tony Black and Nick have a point. Compare Portsmouth's situation in 2004/05 to ours back then - now look at the teams to see just how far we have fallen and how high they have risen.

I can't stand the smugness of Newcastle fans at our expense, but it's justified - while we struggle everything we desire seems to be coming to them - Smith, Viduka, big crowds, lots of money and a qualified manager.

Enough said.

Posted by: Si  | October 31, 2007 9:01 AM

John Powls wrote...

AV

I agree with the broad thrust of your argument and with your comments on Gibbo's many fine attributes - not the least that he is a fan as well as the owner.

But I also agree with some of the other sentiments on here.

As Ian put it so well previously, whilst we all love Boro many, if not most, have fallen out with MFC.

I won't detail what the long and corrosive drip, drip of issues are that have lead to that position. We all know them very well and they're often rehearsed on here.

The problem is that Gibbo (and The Count and others in the club) are still in love with MFC as well as Boro. Love being blind they can't see that change is necessary.

Attracting new finance into the club doesn't necessarily mean selling up or selling out.

Setting up a proper Supporters' Trust, letting it invest in the club and giving the elected head of that a seat on the Board is no more than many other clubs, including in the Prem have alreday done. It might also further protect against a sell-out.

Having a commercial approach that is supporter friendly isn't giving in, it's just good business.

I could go on but my point is that, like it or not, the business model in Prem fotball is changing.

Sitting there, like some Canute of a 'small town' not-in-Europe, on Redcar beach hoping the tide isn't going to come in won't do it.

It's change or drown, I'm afraid.

Posted by: John Powls  | October 31, 2007 9:07 AM

stockton red wrote...

Tony Black -sick of reading your negative bile on here

Is the concept of supporting your team, chairman, manager, players alien to you or are you one of those that enjoys every defeat so you can dish out some more stick?

Southgate is'nt perfect. He's made a mistake with the Korean and should have brought in another forward but for me the biggest reason for our poor points tally are injuries to four central defenders at the start of the season and recently all our forwards. This is compounded by the loss of our best midfielder Arca.

So if we sack all and sundry who do we bring in withh experience? Souness? Peter Reid? Perhaps we could get Bryan Robson back? Dont make me laugh.

While we are on why dont we get rid of Gibson and replace him with Mandaric then you can have a new manager backroom staff and chief exec every six weeks to keep people like you amused.

Try getting to the game on Satuday and get behind the players instead of moaning incessantly on here

Posted by: stockton red  | October 31, 2007 9:26 AM

tonyblack wrote...

" AV writes: I do not write anything for the benefit of Steve Gibson, the club or the shareholders of Trinity Mirror. I write only what I believe to be true. Naive and idealistic maybe, bad for the career path, possibly, but that is what you get from me and it will always be the case. "

Thank you for your reply which I accept as being a statement of fact, which is good to hear.

We will however have to agree to differ on this one. In a perfect world all of what you say is true, but then the world isn't perfect and that's the problem AV.

Whilst we live in and seek to maintain this fairytail utopia, we simply fall ever more behind, just as we have been doing for some time.

It would be different if Gibson was an ex player and and ex manager who REALLY understood what he saw on the training ground and in the locker room, but sadly he doesn't, he's just a mad keen fan and this is his achilles heel from which we are all now suffering, because he just doesn't know about these matters.

I can comment on what you say, but as you can quite clearly see by the way I write I am not in a position to understand if your grammer e.t.c. are correct because I just don't have this knowledge, whereas you do.

Whilst this is the case Gibson remains totally blind to the reality of just how far behind we have also fallen when it comes to training methods, the treatment of players when they are injured, how we motivate them, man manage them and all the rest of it upon which success is built upon.

Forget skill or ability, the players of Man UTD, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool are simply physically fitter and stronger and that is just down to the people behind the scenes doing the coaching.

So not only can we not compete on the quality of what we field, we also cannot compete in these areas.

I know I've banged on about this since day one but there is just no escaping this fact, as you can see it clearly every time we play these teams.

Vision ?

I'll quote you vision so that we can be clear WHERE you and I differ AV.

Vision is at Liverpool in an indoor pitch which allows players to train and play at altitude.

Vision is having injured players recover by going to bed in oxygen beds.

Vision is the heated seats at Arsenal and the like so as to ensure players coming off the bench are far less likely to sustain an injury.

VISION is having a chairman who invests in these ares BEFORE investing in golf courses and hotels.

Vision AV, is being at the very forefront of knowledge and technology in an ever changing and fast paced technological world, as opposed to playing catch up years later, as we are always forced to do.

Vision is replacing the backroom team with those who know more without a second thought, because no matter how hard it may be to do, it's what's best for the club.

As I said before. Difficult decisions are the privilage of rank, and given that Gibson wants to be top dog, it's SOLELY down to him to take these decisions.

But he doesn't know as he is a haulier by trade.

TB

**AV writes: Yet you would see the club sold to someone who is an asset-stripper, a third world sweat shop giant or an internet gambler by trade?

What would ensure that a new owner would invest in those areas? Or maybe they would but would scrap the Academy. Or maybe the trade-off would be higher prices and even more disregard for fans? These people come with cheque books but with no guarantees.


Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 9:31 AM

tonyblack wrote...

" Try getting to the game on Satuday and get behind the players instead of moaning incessantly on here "

Ahh, good old faithfull Stockton Red, the ever present, rose tinted voice of the " agree and support us no matter what or else you're not a proper fan brigade ".

As ever you and your cohorts have to quote rubbish alternatives in order to justify the rubbish we have put in place. Why does it have to be Souness or Reid ? Why ?

WHY ? WHY ? WHY ? WHY ? WHY ??????????

This just shows that you too are an all too familiar accepter or mediocrity and that you too are so utterly entrenched in the petty, and small minded " we're just a small town in Europe " mentality that it's people like you, too many of which are running and working at this club, that are holding us back and sending us down at some point.

We can do, and we could and should do better if we just look up for a change and change the way we think as opposed to always banging on about where we were and that we should be ever grateful for this and just accept the stagnating, rancid status quo as a result.

Erickson went to Man City, and rate him or not as England manager, his club CV is excellent.

So with the right financial package, perhaps not what they have to spend, but with a good package we can also attract people of his quality.

I cannot and will not accept that Man City are a bigger club than the Boro because size of a club isn't just about how many people your stadium can hold based upon where the ground is located and the whealth of those that surround it.

YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK AND A CHANGE OF YOUR MIND SET MATE - YOU AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF STAGNATING PEOPLE AT MFC THAT JUST HAVE BEEN BOOTED OUT A LONG, LONG TIME AGO. No offence.

TB



Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 9:45 AM

alf wrote...

The club,chairman and fans have a tough decision to make in the next year or two. Do we want a local owner or do we want to stay in the premier league?

Financially we can't compete anymore and it is only a matter of time before we get dragged down into the championship unless we invest more money in the club

Posted by: alf  | October 31, 2007 10:20 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Tony Black - much of what you say is correct.

However the players are not to blame for who SG selects as manager, coach and for not having heated seats.

As such as a fan why not go to the ground on a saturday and support the players?

Have a word with the club and they may let you stand on youe soap box.

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 31, 2007 10:26 AM

tonyblack wrote...

" **AV writes: Yet you would see the club sold to someone who is an asset-stripper, a third world sweat shop giant or an internet gambler by trade?

What would ensure that a new owner would invest in those areas? Or maybe they would but would scrap the Academy. Or maybe the trade-off would be higher prices and even more disregard for fans? These people come with cheque books but with no guarantees. "

Come off it AV, is that really the best that you can do ?

Did I ever say this ? WHERE SPECIFICALLY did I say this ?

In my opening lines I did in fact say..

" I for one wouldn't want success at any cost or any price. "

All of what you say here is TRUE and I FULLY ACCEPT this, but I just don't accept the negative way that you portray this and the way that you parade this as justification for accepting the status quo and doing nothing.

The club's hitting rock bottom. How can you not see this ?

Southgate says that 18 months is not a long period of time and that change needs longer, but what SPECIFICALLY has he changed in all this time ?

SURELY we should by now be seeing a bit more than him just saying that he wants to play attacking football, as that means NOTHING.

Are we having a serious and honest debate AV? Ok then, please answer me honestly.

Are all foreign investors made in this mould ?

Isn't it POSSIBLE to have a UK investor who is a fan and has the money and desire to take over the Steve Gibson mantle ?

Who said that Steve Gibson had to sell up everything ? This point has been made well by John Powls and made others now and endless times before.

Why can't he sell a small / decent stake for a good amount to an HONEST UK INVESTOR FAN WHO DOESN'T WANT TO RAVAGE THE CLUB, stay in total control and invest that money into the club, whilst at the very same time having someone else on board who may well have the knowledge and time that he doesn't have.

I just don't understand this pereniall love affair with all things Gibson, I really don't. Are we MORE inetersted in him or isn't this just supposed to be about the club ?

TB

**AV writes: To be honest, yes, all investors are pretty much in that mould. Not neccessarily in their CV but certainly in their intentions. By definition an investor wants to make a return and that inevitably comes out of our pockets, either directly in higher ticket prices or indirectly through higher TV subscriptions and shirt prices.

The model by which the game is delivered into the hands of big investors is one in which we give up all hope of having any chance of reclaaiming our game.

It will lead ever more to a distortion of the entire game, making it an enclosed elite totally divorced from the other 72 (or maybe 76) clubs, from any control whatsoever by the 'football authorities' and from any realtionship with the fans. Maybe it will expand into a franchise operation, maybe spread to other countries, maybe end the threat of relegation, maybe new rules... who knows.

You can't cherry-pick the good bits about investment - that is transfer funds to compete - but ignore the bad bits.

You say the club is at rock bottom. I disagree completely with that. In the spell between 1982-86 the club was at rock bottom. It nearly went under and there was no hope.

Where we are now represents a slump back from unprecedented highs, a downsizing of artificially inflated dreams and expectations and the effects of football gravity reasserting itself after a spell when we briefly escaped the weight of history to soar to the stars.

But there is still hope. We are still well placed to reshape the club in a way that can give it a future, can bring it closer to the fans, and can be sustained.

There are many models for Boro's future. Selling out is one of them but it is far from the best, the most appropriate or even the one most likely to succeed.

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 10:46 AM

tonyblack wrote...

" Never Happy wrote...

Tony Black - much of what you say is correct.

However the players are not to blame for who SG selects as manager, coach and for not having heated seats.

As such as a fan why not go to the ground on a saturday and support the players?

Have a word with the club and they may let you stand on youe soap box. "

Never Happy you are right. All I can say is that by staying away I feel that this is the ONLY way to get the message across and to FORCE the changes that I feel are required for the benefit of the club.

With less and less people turning up change will be FORCED upon people who are content just to exist, trun up and get paid, which I simply refuse to ever accept.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 10:50 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

I am broadly in agreement with the article and certainly dont think AV is a Slavenista.

Many a time he has nailed his colours to the mast in airing our disenchantment with the club and started the debates. He has started many threads and allowed them to run, as far as I am aware he has never censored other than for legal reasons and allowed the themes to run.

He is entitled to his views as much as Tony Black, John Powls, Ian Gill, Robin Mitton and even Briggsy (wherever he is at the moment). We are in danger of shooting the messenger.

I also think the club needs some freshening up, John refers to my pre-season commment from a posting on this blog that we have fallen out of love with MFC. I likened it to new labour under Tony Blair where the spin took over the substance but they couldnt see it themselves.

Another analogy is M&S where the senior management had lost touch with the staff and customers in part because most of them had come through the company and had become inward looking.

There needs to be new blood (and some dough wouldnt go amiss) coming into an organisation to help its growth and development. The club doesnt give a second thought to renewing the pitch or rejigging the squad, the same should apply to the club itself.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 31, 2007 10:52 AM

robmitton wrote...

Dear TB,

Your comments regarding Bernie are nigh on incomprehensible! Here is a 'truly' world class broadcaster with the trophies to prove it.

This man along with Al created one of the most listened to and appealing sports shows in the world not just the UK!

And what do they get for their success?...nothing but ingrained prejudice and bias from people who cannot or will not hold a mirror up to their own performance.

If only our senior execs had performed so admirably we would certainly not be in the dire mess we are in. Talk about chucking a bucket of water whilst Rome burns Tony! Kindly leave THE BERN alone thank you.

Will email you all from Switzerland with news of just what BORO have missed out on and just because of the same people who wanted to shut Bernie up.

I tell you what Tony I'll not be inviting you to my farewell shindig at the Onion as I'll find some ragged old tramp to give your free drinks to as he will well symbolize the paucity and intellectual scarecrow like substance of your arguments against THE BERN!

Goodbye!

Seething Robin Mitton
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS

Posted by: robmitton  | October 31, 2007 11:04 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

This new wave of cash injection has happened at such a pace that for many club owners the decision whether to jump into the arms of a foreign billionaire before they’re pushed by wide-eyed fans is fast approaching.

It just amazes me to hear fans like Nick and Si being so easily entranced by these ‘White Knights’. Do you really believe that all of a sudden a dozen altruistic billionaires have descended on the premiership to make us all happy?

Do you not think it’s a massive coincidence that all these people (who said they’re not in it for the money) arrived the same time as a 1.3 billion TV deal – along with a nicely maturing internationally merchandising market.

As AV has so importantly pointed out – Many of these deals involve massive debts secured on the assets of the club – So if anything goes wrong you won’t just be in the championship, you’ll be starting again in Northern League Division 4 (or whatever it’s called these days).

I also didn’t hear AV telling us that the benign dictator Steve Gibson was the man for the future but was instead warning against selling our heritage to money men on the make – although I think SG was in it for the long haul, he’s now become too insulated from the fans and has made too many questionable judgements.

So Boro fans by all means chuck Steve Gibson out if you want - but don’t push him into the arms of Chuck Gibson, the all-American good guy who just can’t wait to own the Seal Sands Steelers and play fantasy soccer with his other American buddies before the next global financial opportunity comes along.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 31, 2007 11:10 AM

Holgate Ender wrote...

are you lot what want to shaft gibson all daft? do you think you can find a squillionaire who would put up with all the whinging on teesside? do you think these ruthless global businessmen would invest billions because back on teh mean streets of new jersey or bangkok archie stephens was the childhood hero?

no way. if they come it will be because they can make money and they won't think twice about sqeezing the club dry then legging it when it is empty.

whatever you think of gibbo (and it makes my blood boil to hear some of the things the ingrates and idiots say) he is a teesside lad and a boro fan through and through and has never taken a penny out of the club. can you say the same about the kind of fellas who you want here?

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | October 31, 2007 11:34 AM

jiffy wrote...

This discussion is purely academic.

The new breed of investors are only interested in Premiership clubs - and this club wont be one anymore come next May.

Posted by: jiffy  | October 31, 2007 12:10 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

OK, there seems to be 2 arguments on this board: (1) Should we sign up to a foreign investor so that we can compete and (2) We are not competing because the club is been run by a bunch of amateurs.

We should not fall into the trap of thinking that solving problem (2) is achieved by doing solution (1).

12 clubs have now gone down the foreign investor route and more will probably follow. But unless the investment is truly massive and sustained it only gives you a temporary bounce that soon settles out and everything returns to the usual order.

Here’s why:

- The number of quality football players available is limited.
- With markets, the laws of supply and demand dictate that prices fall when supply is increased.
- But with each new cash injection into football, transfer fees and wages have increased
- Sucessful clubs have a bigger fan base and are able to maintain the wealth gap and stay ahead of the chasing pack.
- Unsucessful or Unfashionable clubs need to pay over the market rate to attract top players

All we will see is ticket prices going up so that we can watch pretty much the same team with the likes of Rocky, Downing and Mido on 100 grand a week. We’ll still probably end up finishing just below mid-table and the new owners will may well be forced to sell our best players to service an ever-increasing debt.

Only FIFA, UEFA and the FA have the power to level the playing field - This will only happen following a crisis or financial meltdown.

**AV writes: I agree with all at hat but will add that with the economic power of the new foreign owners comes political power to reshape the game too.

They will not have the historical, cultural or emotional ties to the game and will not neccessarily accept the need for an organic link with the rest of the league for instance. If they want a closed set up to protect their investment from this alien threat of relegation, then they will get it.

Those who want to sell their clubs shoudl realise they run the risk of also selling their game lock, stock and barrel to people who may not value it as highly as we do.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 31, 2007 12:18 PM

Mike wrote...

First time I have ever disagreed with Vic. For me, Gibson is the problem at the moment and until he either brings in more investment (and a board to make multilateral decisions) or walks away then this club will not prosper.

Posted by: Mike  | October 31, 2007 12:32 PM

beeline wrote...

I'm completely with Vickers on this.

The day may well come, and soon, when all Premiership clubs are owned by foreigners. What will not change though, is that three clubs will still be relegated each year. Unless of course they buy the FA too.

Posted by: beeline  | October 31, 2007 12:43 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

For sure AV, the hijacking of the game by foreign 'investors' is my biggest worry about the whole future of the game.

It was also reported this week that the big European clubs - the so called G14 (actually 18 clubs) - have invited a further 20 selected clubs from around europe to attend a meeting.

I'm sure this is not a discussion on how they can best help the game as a whole.

How can the fans reclaim the power from the money men? The fans of sucessful clubs don't even see a problem!

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 31, 2007 12:48 PM

Score Draw wrote...

Interesting article Anthony. I share your concerns regarding the influx of largely US investors.

Only the truly naive would see their interest in football as anything but predatory. These are not Bill Gates type characters who amass fortunes and then give it away via some charitable body or institution. They have not decended on England because they want to unburden themselves of their 'filthy' money.

Ambrovich has used Chelski to cement himself into English football/society and avoid being force fed nuclear sushi back in the Motherland.

Gibson stands head and shoulders above these people. He's done a great job. He's no saint and his judgement has not always been perfect. And I suspect he's not lost a great deal of money at the Boro.

What is clear to me is that he has raised the expectations of the Town and the Club as is evidenced by the demands articulated on this Blog.

Ticket pricing, alienation of the fans, overpaid players, slimey agents, boring pundits, old boy networks, poor English coaching/scouting, tabloidisation of football, dodgy owners (not just foreign ones - look down the road at Leeds)..... These are all problems that exist because of the new found wealth in football.

The Boro is a healthy club in all aspects with the possible exception of being 4th from bottom of the league table - but that will change (immediately if we get a new goalie !!!)

I wasn't persuaded by Tony Blacks description of "Vision" , heated seats, oxygen tents ... ... etc etc. You could possibly argue these things help but I suspect it's bullshine to justify the immense wages of coaches.

The trick is to spot, develop, secure and select players with VISION and SKILL and COMMITTMENT.

I think Southgate shows some signs of having the judgement. Arca and ONeil are superb players.

There again his persistance with Schwarzer makes me sob with despair.

Posted by: Score Draw  | October 31, 2007 1:02 PM

Stockton Red wrote...

Well Tony Black we've now reached the truth.You do not even go to the game.Typical - the biggest critics never do.

I am not an apologist for Steve Gibson or anybody else but a genuine fan of 40 years. I try to make constructive criticism not just sack, sack, sack.

1. I believe it would be in the clubs best interests if additional investors or investment could be found.

2.I dont think the club's P.R. is good and could do with an injection of new ideas.

3. I think ticket pricing is totally lacking imagination particularly kids and family concessions.

However with regard to what is going on in the field of play I watch it and my opinion is valid. If another 10 to 12 thousand chucked the towel in like you and packed up no doubt we'd see investors falling over to get involved in the club with 10 thousand crowds. Get in the real world. Cant you do us a favour for a couple of weeks and give it a rest

Posted by: Stockton Red  | October 31, 2007 1:08 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Dear Robbin,

" I tell you what Tony I'll not be inviting you to my farewell shindig at the Onion as I'll find some ragged old tramp to give your free drinks to as he will well symbolize the paucity and intellectual scarecrow like substance of your arguments against THE BERN! "

Hey Robin, why don't you take your ball home with you whilst you're at it. You don't seem able to enter into an intelligient debate and your choice or words only serves to show you up for the arrogant man that you are in your misguided and patronising belief that only you and the Oxbridge graduates in here will be able to understand them.

I won't take lessons from the likes of you.

If you want to put me down please in future do so by ACTUALLY reading my posts before having your right of reply which your are entitled to and most welcome to.

This is what I actually said...

" Where was this visionary philosophy when it came to booting off the most popular radio commentary from our airwaves in order to replace it with utter emotionless rubbish ? "

Robbin, what part of that do you not undertsand ?

Did you bother to read this ? No it seems.

My comments regarding Bernie have absolutely nothing to do with his radio commentary, it's to do with the fact that he publicly backs Steve Gibson all the way, all the time and simply refuses to even question anything he does because in HIS OWN WORDS Steve Gibson AKA The King Of Teesside can do no wrong.

So by all means disagree with what I say because I've never claimed to be all seeing and all knowing. By all means tell me I'm a half witted old fool, but please have the common courtesy of reading my threads before you comment on them from your Chateux in Switzerland.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 1:12 PM

Si wrote...

Werdermouth:

Yes, I know I sounded like I wanted Gibson out in exchange for a foreign investor. The truth is, I don't.

I'm just shocked, no, make that saddened, at how far we've fallen since McClaren used our UEFA Cup run to make himself England manager.

And how far the likes of Portsmouth and Newcastle have risen since the arrival of foreign investors. As I was saying, how smug must the Geordies be at the minute seeing us in our current predicament?

Can you imagine how Man. United fans felt in 2003? They'd just won the league, and were set to continue their dominance, with the signing of Arjen Robben a likelihood. Then a certain Russian showed up...

But they came back and won the league again, four years later.

How I'd love us to do a similar thing. In other words, gradually rebuild a team capable of competing in the top half, with Gibson still the chairman, and return to those heady days. Only it won't happen.

If the likes of Woody and Downing play badly, then we will suffer because they're not pulling their weight - if they play well, every big club will be linked with them.

And we no longer have the funds to replace them.

I want to be positive, but the reality looks grim.

Posted by: Si  | October 31, 2007 1:32 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Jiffy has made a valid point.

Navel gazing is all well and good, in the short term the Spurs match followed by Bolton are much more important than where the next sugar daddy is coming from.

Then we can worry about the rights and wrongs of foreign ownership.

But one danger with US investors with a background in US sport is the idea a franchise that can be bought and sold. And what is more moved to another location. In US football the Oakland Raiders become the LA Raiders before moving back to Oakland. Couldnt happen in this country luckily could it - MK Dons. Truth is it is highly unlikely .

But that is the type of people you could have in charge of the club. Or you could have genuine football loving people who are fans of the game and become fans of the club.

Somehow we have to get the club to engage with the fans, attract more money in and keep it a local club.

It isnt easy and going back to Jiffy's point, if it goes belly up it is goodbye Garmin, hello Heritage Hampers.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 31, 2007 2:05 PM

VERY hAPPY wrote...

AV

Until something concrete arrives, lay your crumbled foundations to rest and concentrate solely on the guy who bought the seat, which has given the Gazette plenty of Premierships spreads.

You want to delve into how much some seats cost at Chelsea when certain games crop up. Then reality would kick home.

These Genies from overseas may well plough their loot in, but someone has to pay the price and that someone happens to be the ripped off fan.

The whole lot of them what to hop it back home and leave our game alone. Look at the Chelsea chairman of late.

Applauding his English heroes one day, then applauding his Russian counterparts the next.

Even Del Boy would not have sold us that one!

**AV write: Where have you been VH? We've missed you.


Posted by: VERY hAPPY  | October 31, 2007 2:08 PM

TCom wrote...

Can't agree.

It's nice to have a local person at the helm.

I'd like to have a local person at the helm who has the financial clout to bring cups to the Riverside.

If I can't have that I'll settle for "a" person has the financial clout to bring cups to the Riverside.

Posted by: TCom  | October 31, 2007 2:31 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

Any new investment/investor has the potential for success or abject failure for all the reasons discussed above. We have a current dire situation which is not unfathomnable as pointed out many times over in previous debates on here.

The current regime is underperforming in most areas of the business at the minute. How we address this as individuals is up to us. Do we go to the Riverside week after week and scream our support and undying love for the club or do we take the political stance and vote with our feet? Both extreme views ultimately want the same resolution i.e. relative success on the pitch!

Success on the pitch these days is highly complex due to the fast moving pace of commercial and marketing opportunities/threats which has taken the game away from the man in the street and reduced us all to mere pawns.

I am as frustrated as most and extremely annoyed at the at times comedic management and PR from the Riverside these days but deep down I also know that a Russo/Yank Billionaire will not neccessarily improve things both on or off the pitch.

The Premier league has become a "mini-Stockmarket" and it will have dark days ahead as crashes happen (and mark my words they definitely will!). It will be interesting to see what happens to the Randy's, Roman's and Carson's then.

Boro under its current regime need strong dynamic Leadership more than ever. The next few months will prove or disprove if the current structure has the stomach for it and more importantly the ability.

I believe it has plenty of misguided fight left in them but I doubt if it has the ability. Its up to Steve Gibson to provide the leadership and drive and reverse the disastrous performances both on the pitch and in the offices.

A new billionaire leader may be a genuine man of the people or an absolute despot (and there have been more than a few despots in English football who are English!) only time would tell.

Bottom line is something needs to change now and I would much prefer SG to put his underpants on over his trousers once more and produce one more superhuman effort than to follow the Lemmings in an effort to be the biggest and best.

That said as things stand it looks like Keith Lamb is wearing the underpants these days. Just hope SG can find the kryptonite and soon!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | October 31, 2007 2:46 PM

deka wrote...

interesting points AV, however I have to question your argument that we need to keep the club free from foriegn investors.

Steve Gibson has done wonders for our club but he does not appear to be doing much at the moment to arrest our slide to the bottom of the league, or to rally the fans to return - lowest attendances for 10 years -which will obviously have a knock on effect in merchandising, matchday sales in kiosks et al.

The leadership has to come from the top and at the moment the silence is deafening.the fans remember the quotes"WE ARE LOOKING FOR A TOP MANAGER TO TAKE THE CLUB FORWARD"

The time is fast approaching when serious decisions have to be made or it will be too late. We need a strong personality to lift morale, sorry Gareth, nice bloke but we need to be more ruthless at this end of the table.

Lets get paul jewell while he is available.and if a billionaire becomes interested...why not...your only here once.

Posted by: deka  | October 31, 2007 2:53 PM

robmitton wrote...

Dear TB,

I just think that it would be kind and wise to put your comments re: The BERN in the context that he's effectively lost his main job for the moment and I'm sure would love to get it back.

As I have alluded To Bernie and Al have spent years creating a quite unique and successful 'brand' if you like, the success of which bettered themselves, BORO and Century.

I can only hope that when they are invited back into the fold they can do so without pressure to repress themselves on air.

They are way too good to be without a sports broadcast show for too long in my opinion and many others can I add.

All the best TB.

Robin Mitton
WITH A TENT AND ON MY WAY FOR NATIONS

Posted by: robmitton  | October 31, 2007 2:56 PM

Nigel wrote...

I'm stunned by those posting saying we need a 'billionaire' to take us forward. Well I'll say this, there is no such thing as a 'free lunch'. Anyone buying the club will be in it for profit unless they are a Boro supporter.

Steve Gibson is rated as the best chairman/owner in the prem. and for good reason. He has set new standards for Boro so much so that the likes of TB have forgotten where rock bottom really is.

We currently have a new manager who is rebuilding a team, is set on playing attractive football and is highly regarded by no less a manager than Alex Ferguson.

We are all getting twitchy because this season we hoped for a top ten finish and that clearly isn't going to happen. None the less this is not the time to panic.

Steve Gibson has been and continues to be a brilliant chairman, although he is not perfect and for some reason seems to think there is no need to engage directly with us fans. That is his big weakness but it is not a reason for demanding he sells to a billionaire from kazakstan or South Dakota who hasn't heard of Boro doesn't care but sees the size of the SKY contract.

Steve Gibsons business model for Boro seems very different from that of most other prem. clubs and I for one am glad it is.

For those of you demanding radical change do you have no pride in the fact that half the Boro team are born in and around Teesside, it certainly means a lot to me. We would loose that if the club was sold to 'an investor'.

Hold your nerve and wait for the good times to come.

Posted by: Nigel  | October 31, 2007 3:01 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

TCom

I read yesterday that Oprah Winfrey is worth over 2 billion and is well known for her support of deserving causes.

She qualifies on your stringent 'is a person' test and is regarded as even more saintly than Steve Gibson ever was - that's before his golden halo was melted down to create our wonderful away kit.

Maybe she can even arrange monthly televised discussions where the likes of Tony Black and Robin Mitton can learn to forgive the sins of brother Gareth and uncle Gibbo.

Start writing that letter...

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 31, 2007 3:19 PM

tonyblack wrote...

STOCKTON RED...

Let me start by saying that I absolutely respect what you have to say and that you and I and others are only having a heated debate based upon a shared passion. I do not wish to offend and I am not offended by what you say as I know that it comes from the heart.

" Cant you do us a favour for a couple of weeks and give it a rest "

No, absolutely not. I intend to post again and again and again until things change.

Your opinion IS as valid as anyones, it's just I, like you, passionately believe in what I have to say and I am not and cannot be convinced that these two people in charge have the faintest idea as to what they are doing.

I have NEVER posted in here and just said sack, sack sack WITHOUT giving my own reasons for justifying my stance.

You can mock oxygen tents, heated seats and altitude chambers all you like, but when your stars are injured as a result of your kind of attitude then you shouldn't complain.

These things are KEY. It's absolutely pointless buying Mido and then having him sat on the physio's couch week after week after week.

Our injury situation is a direct result of people like you at the club not having the knowledge and understanding of these matters. Can I just give you one example ?

Next time you go to a game just ask yourself why it is, with all the injury problems we have, that NOT ONE of the coach's here puts the guys through their warm up before they come on as subsitutes ?

Surely, with all these historical injuries and with all the injuries we have now you would expect SOMEONE to get up off their backside and MAKE 100% SURE that players are as warmed up as they can be before they come on so as to reduce the risk of injury as much as possible ?

Have we all forgotten how Viduka used to warm up, laughing and joking on the touchline near the away end, instead of focusing on what he was doing ?

Is it any wonder that he's out of action so often ?

Am I really asking too much ?

This is how I DEFINE VISION, and this is the difference between employing people who have the passion and the bit between their teeth in order to DRIVE these changes through and search for ever higher and higher levels of excellence, and those who have not.

You don't need to pay through the nose for this, you just need to employ the right type of people who just LIVE everyday of their lives with this kind of attitude.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 31, 2007 3:29 PM

Scott Jackson wrote...

I rarely post on here, but do try and read as many of the blogs as I can but I'm quite astounded by a general lack of foresight by the biggest critics to your article in here.

The first thing that I would bring up is why exactly would ANY foreign investor want to invest in the "product" of Middlesbrough?

As an investor I would be looking at a return on my investment, which will hopefully come about as a by product of league placing, TV exposure, TV rights and ticket money.

Boro fans have already shown that any further rise in ticket prices will be met with very strong opposition, so there’s one main factor out. Then what else do we have to offer, Villa, Birminham, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, West Ham, ALL within major cities potential for massive fan bases, even Portsmouth are moving to a much bigger stadium to generate their new owner more MONEY.

Will an investor ever get a return on such things at Boro, I very much doubt it.

And then looking at the league, with a new investor what exactly would Boro be looking to achieve in the league?

Fifth place down to 17th every year? 8th place behind the other investors? No different to what we can achieve now with the right ideas behind the core things in football, buying players with the correct attitude and potential.

After all, look at what Arsenal have done on a meagre budget compared to their “peers” and Seville in Spain haven’t exactly spent a fortune compared to others.

Afterall, haven’t we been teaching the Geordies that it’s HOW you spend, rather than how much for at least a few years now.

Posted by: Scott Jackson  | October 31, 2007 3:36 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Looks like DGL has learnt something from his time at the Boro...

South Korea are set to ban two of their biggest stars over a late-night drinking spree during the Asian Cup.

Middlesbrough striker Lee Dong-Gook and World Cup hero Lee Woon-Jae are under fire over a raucous night with staff at an Indonesian karaoke bar.

Full Article http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7070927.stm


Posted by: Never Happy  | October 31, 2007 3:50 PM

tonymonaco wrote...

AV, can i ask you a favour mate and ask that you indulge my first and one and only ever long winded post as i have an announcement to make !

Let me start by saying what a really excellent blog this is. AV, you post some fine fine work and the people who blog in here really do make this blog top notch. so many other blogs and forums ive read are just full of abusive people where the content is mostly third rate.

Here you can feel the fire and passion of real fans who want a more intellectual debate from whats on offer on the whole on the net and want to have their say. I don't mean that to sound snobby or funny - do you know what i mean? anyway well done all and its a pleasure to be part of it.

Over the last few weeks since i came to the blog I've been reading up on past issues in my spare time just to get a feel of things and to see what topics have already been covered and to get to know the people in here a bit better.

Time after time Mr Tony Black stood out in a way that i just couldnt put my finger on. every time i read his posts I just kept getting that nagging feeling in my waters that I'd read this somewhere before, the type of feeling you get when you meet someone that you've met once before but just cant place them, do you know what i mean?

Then on Monday I was sat at work and it hit me right slap bang in the face and i actually started laughing to myslef as if I'd discovered the whereabouts of holy grail from the Da Vinci code film. I even took a half days holiday to go home and sit at my laptop to see if i was right.

I've been a boro fan for about 20 odd years and of all the managers I've seen come and go the one i really couldnt warm to was Steve McClaren. I know he brought home the carling cup for us and i know he took us on that incredible uefa cup ride, but i just couldnt stand the man.

I couldnt stand how he spoke on match of the day or what he said with that ever present magnificent word that he loved so much as well as how he tactically tried to play the game in that all too familiar boring negative way.

i know that this is harsh but his smile really grated on me as well. harsh because I've never met the man and hes never done anything bad to me! but i just could bare it.

This is when i realised where I'd read Tony Black's words before. Tony Tony Tony. I'm sorry to have to do this but I think he isnt Tony Black at all, hes Sergio Peretti aka slim, the man that wrote Maccarone's press release that all the papers picked up on and this is where I knew i read some of the things hes posted in here.

So I went home to check it out and im sure its him. I'm so sure that im willing to stake money on it, lots of it!

I then started to think what his motivations could be because hes been posting on here since Maccarone left and hes done so with such fire and passion so I doubt if hes trying to carry on the fight for his friend as it were.

I then decided to read through his web site and its so obvious that hes Tony Black because there is so much content from the site in what he says. He gives the game away when he says things like " Next time you go to a game just ask yourself why it is, with all the injury problems we have, that NOT ONE of the coach's here puts the guys through their warm up before they come on as subsitutes ? "

Only a football coach of some kind would see these things and point them out. I have to say that some of his training methods are really very good. and i mean that.

Whatever his reasons are the mans got bags of talent. his insight into why people like Franck Quedrue put in so many up and down performances is a corker and he explains how we can beat the Man Utd's etc and then lose to teams that we should be beating. So im really very impressed.

On his site he list who hes coached and on there there is a special message for his friend Abel Xavier. I did a google search on xavier and Slim must have also wrote Xavier's US press release as his web sites motto is in there.

Which leads me to the conclusion. he writes in here with real passion and fire and even if you don't agree with it it obviously comes from a real fan like it does with the rest of us in here. this is how it seems to me anyway.

So why the masquerade? The only thing i can imagine is that having written such a ferocious attack on Steve Mcclaren and MFC that hes burnt his bridges big time,
he's shot himself in both of his left feet with a bazooka and is now powerless and totally unemployable at the club he loves and personally believes is so out of date.

Sad really as I'm sure that if not the Boro that there must have been a few clubs that would have welcomed his input on the kids. now Im not so sure.

Sorry TB, but if you want to continue to post in the way you do you will have to take the mask off and explain why you felt the need to hide your true identity in here.

Whatever your motivations youve got me totally hooked into your own training ideas but i very much doubt that many people in here, if any, will be so charitable because - if you are Slim - you chose to air MFC's dirty washing in public with a very bitter attack and so you must pay the price.

You have accused some in here in lacking the guts to question Steve Gibson. I for one agree with you on this but that isn't the point is it? If you want to point the finger you have to at least have the guts yourself. Something that your masquerade clearly shows that you don't have.

My revelation might not set the world alight but it does spice things up and makes for an interesting addition to this formidable debate!

tony monaco

**AV writes: This accusation has been made on here before and TB has insisted he is not Mr Perreti but merely a member and close reader of that website. While some may still have their doubts we must take him at his word.

And you were right, it is a long post.

Posted by: tonymonaco  | October 31, 2007 4:51 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

Bet he still didnt score

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 31, 2007 4:53 PM

John Powls wrote...

Never Happy

Yes, read that too. Might explain a few things with Simba...

Scott Jackson

Interesting you pick up the Seville argument. I was discussing much the same with some mates the other day.

It's one of the more disappointing things about MFC that having had the sobering experience of the UEFA Cup final defeat we were in a position to learn the lessons from that and build from a position of relative strength.

One of the things we could have done is take a look at what Seville did to get themselves where they were and why - above being a better side - they bested us in so many ways on that night.

As you say, most of it wasn't down to money.

A lot was having the vision and doing what was necessary, consisitently to achieve the goal. Moreover that vision forged a bond between the club and its fans which was evident at the final and has been since as they have driven on to better things.

It does seem to many of us that MFC went the other way and that ambition died in the club at Eindhoven. Moreover that the way MFC has acted since has driven a wedge between the club and Boro fans.

Such a disappointing contrast and it didn't and doesn't need to be that way.

Posted by: John Powls  | October 31, 2007 5:13 PM

David Tomasetti wrote...

Great blog AV and great debate.Too busy to comment other than to say that the last time I looked, the Boro were the 14th best team in the country. Not bad in 20 years is it?

Cmon Boro

Posted by: David Tomasetti  | October 31, 2007 7:28 PM

chop wrote...

Agree entirely with the comments of Nigel.

The level of negativity directed at Gibson is unbelievable - were these people around 20 years ago? Do they remember what we looked like?

Gibson has performed amazingly well in my mind. Save a few slip ups we have become a firm Premiership team, we've regularly made it to finals (I'd never seen this before - Zenith cup doesn't count). We have brought in good players and we have stuck by a strong financial strategy which has seen the likes of Dooks go.

Other clubs haven't done the same and have falllen by the wayside - look at the investment of some clubs that have gone down, Leeds is obviously the best example - I'd imagine their fans would swap with us in an instant - especially with the number of local lads we have in the team - something to be truly proud of.

Which other club has invested so heavily in its Academy - we're held up by the national press as an examplar - now that's got to hurt the national press writing postiive things about the Boro.

I'm certain we haven't seen the end of the falls by some biggish teams. The scale of investment (sorry I mean losses) by teams paying silly transfer money for players and equally silly wages is just not sustainable no matter which billionaire is in the chair.

It reminds me of the financial markets, everyone investing in a bull market like money is going out of fashion, can't lose but there is always a correction and it will come in the Premiership. I will be happy if Gibson is still in the Chair when it occurs, no doubt smiling like a very smart cheshire cat.

The team is going through a bad patch and it has to be fixed - but please lets not think that buying a (non-playing) Chairman with billions will make everything right. It won't.

Boro owe much to Gibson and when he does step down he'll be the first chairman to deserve a statue out the front of the ground (God he must love the club given he is still around on the back of all the whingeing).

Mind I'm not saying he's above criticism - the support of Mac and the decision to appoint Southgate is questionable - but decision made and lets see what comes of it. I've seen enough to show we can stay up if Southgate fields the right players.

Posted by: chop  | October 31, 2007 8:35 PM

pauline johnson wrote...

Hi AV,

I'm disappointed that the early promise of the attack-minded football has failed to achieve results. I saw a new Boro in the game against Blackburn, playing with a new fervour.
In the next game I saw against Sunderland much of that belief was dissipated.

Injuries to key players have done much to disrupt the formation of the team spirit. I think that several are below par and not performing well.

I would like to see a more ruthless manager dropping those who aren't doing it, but the injury crisis is preventing that. It's difficult to see who would come in and replace the underperformers. The strength in depth just isn't there.

I have to say that the injuries we are seeing are also prevalent in the rest of the division. It may be a combination of ultra training and the boots. I do believe that the fitness of the players is at an all time high and perhaps is actually too high, in some individuals. Trying to do more is putting too much strain on them. Witness Rooney's metatarsal problem and Huth's and Woody's recurring problems.

Chopping and changing the team as we have been forced to do has also led to players not understanding what newcomers will do in certain situations.

Having said that, what are they working on in training? A recent article in "World Soccer" by Brian Glanville pointed out the number of times the punt upfield by the goalkeeper led to possession being given to the opposition. He must have been watching our games. It applies to the "last ditch" clearance by our defence too.

It seems to me that basic tactics are not being coached. Why no-one on the half-way line at corners conceded by us? Why doesn't anybody move to receive the ball at throw-ins, or after passing to a comrade ( on the times when that pass is actually completed?) Why does the target man persist in heading the ball onwards when he can see all his team-mates in their own half?

When will we appoint a striking coach who will instill a bit of anticipation on behalf of strikers or midfielders for knock-downs or rebounds? I know attacking the second ball is taught to the defence, why not the forwards?

Still I'm only a woman, what do I know?

Regards

Pauline

Posted by: pauline johnson  | October 31, 2007 9:38 PM

allycat wrote...

We have no assetts to strip and there would be nothing wrong with being taken over by an 'internet gambler', we were after all sponsored by 888.com.

Whilst it is not the case that all foreign investment is bad - why would successful businessmen want to run down their latest acquisition, especially when the actual club is not financially attractive if out of the premier league - I don't think there is any reason to want rid of Gibson. Lamb, Southgate and Crosby, yes, but not Gibson.

There are still affordable decent players out there to take us forward. We don't need to splash big cash on players that may turn out to be lemons - shevchenko anyone!

The only problem with Gibson is his insistence on bringing in rookie managers. We are in our current predicament due to lack of knowledge in the coaching, tactics and purchasing departments.

A experienced manager would have gotten us more points at this stage of the season, especially considering our potentially easy start to the season.

Lack of cash is not necessarily the problem, even if we had spent big money, i don't think we have the ability to bring the best out of really good players. Not until we get a new management team anyway.

Posted by: allycat  | October 31, 2007 9:47 PM

red_rebel wrote...

Allycat... we have no assets? Are you sure? What about the cash flow? And TV money? And player sales?

Here's how it works. You buy club X for above the market rate. Let's say the ground is worth £4m for housing, training complex maybe a bit more as it is a leafy suburb. Then there are three or four major shareholders who want their own stake back plus a few quid profit, say £1m each.

So say the total is £15m but you agree to take on the £20m debt too... the shareholders are relieved to be off the hook on debt, out of the fans firing line and quids in too.

Then you borrow the £35m plus another £15m for players secured against the club and when you fund a spending spree the fans are happy too.

You service the debt by paying the interest payments but don't pay the loans off and you pump the £30m TV cash plus all the other revenues offshore as pure profit.

To buy new players and keep the punters happy you then borrow more, secured against future ticket revenue.

Then after a few years when the pressure of the debts is mounting, or as relegation looms, or you decide to chase an easy buck elsewhere you cash in. You sell a few players then bail out, hive the club off from your corporate structure and cast it adrift but with the debt firmly attached.

The club is now the original £50m in debt plus whatever else has been borrowed, the ground is o the verge of being taken by the bank and needs to be leased back, the best players have been sold and future ticket monies for the next ten years are due to creditors.

Meanwhile the white knight benefactor is £30m x three or four better off and the club is shafted. But at least it will have competed for a few years. Maybe they even finished 7th. Hurrah!


Posted by: red_rebel  | October 31, 2007 11:31 PM

Neil (USA) wrote...

"This is a local club for local people..."

Interesting article AV and some great comments. I fear for the game in some ways. Several teams have attracted investment, but there is only so much success to go round. What we end up with is the ridiculous situation a la Spurs. Jol had worked wonders in two seasons, has a hiccup at the start of this season and poof...he's gone.

As to our predicament...I'm proud of our local ownership and talent from the academy, but it's clear we need an injection of something to help us if we want to compete whether it's from Gibbo or some other source.

Two tough games coming up, and who'd have thought that Spurs and Bolton would be in the bottom three?

I wish I knew the answer. I don't like the American system where the worst teams get rewarded with the best players from the college draft, but I do like their policies on salary caps.

I think some kind of salary cap (where your total expenditure on wages is capped at a certain level) combined with some kind of player restriction (maybe a limited number of foreigners...or if your an English club you have to have x amount of English players).

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | October 31, 2007 11:48 PM

Neil (USA) wrote...

Another thought here...

I think that our national team is suffering because our top club teams aren't really English. As much as I love watching the superstars of the Champions League battle it out on ESPN, what good does it do the English game if Arsenal succeed? I guess Theo Walcott might get the odd game, but isn't he an U21 player.

This will never happen, but it would be a much fairer league if every English team HAD to have x number of English players and x number of local players. And I mean real local players, not the Republic of Ireland thing where if your gran once owned an Irish wolf-hound you are somehow grandfathered in.

We might get a return to the good old days where Hereford just might beat Newcastle in the FA Cup.

Well...it's just a thought.

Anyway, I'll look forward to Boro's next game. Let's spoil Mr. Ramos's honeymoon period with the Spurs.

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | October 31, 2007 11:55 PM

allycat wrote...

Red_Rebel. So what you are saying is that the club is valued at approximately 15 million, but with an actual equity of -5 million. From which you are able to borrow 50 million?

The TV revenue is then pumped offshore and is 30 million of pure profit, apart from the actual wages and running costs and tax.

Putting the money offshore would not really be beneficial, as tax would still be payable on monies earned within the UK. The creditors will also be aware of and entitled to know about where funds are going to.

They would probably be also wondering why none of the capital was being repaid. The banks would also be well aware that although the premier league is currently awash with funds, this is a precarious position and many are predicting the bubble will burst.

Some of the situations you have outlined may have been allowed to occur in the past, (e.g. what happened with Leeds Utd was partly the fault of the banks as well as Ridsdale), however the potential for the boards of football clubs to over-extend themselves is now very well documented and in the current climate, credit is not as forthcoming as it once was

Finally, if you read what I actually said, I supported Gibson and I do not want foreign ownership. We have one of the best chairman in football and I am proud he is a local lad done well.

However foreign ownership is not necessarily a bad thing for other clubs - remember the Glazers at Man Utd and the doom and gloom that was predicted when they took over?

Posted by: allycat  | November 1, 2007 7:08 AM

Ken wrote...

Much of what AV has written, is almost word-for-word from the drivel spouted by the Manchester United fans who were burning their season tickets.

Owners who will only have financial interest and no footballing interest.

In actuality, the Premiership is constructed in such a way as to make it significantly more capitalist and comopetitive than American sports.

Relegation is a large part of it, but there is also the lack of "early draft picks" for floundering teams, not to mention that TV money is distributed proportionately to league standing, that attendance is roughly porpotional to standing, and that European places are rewarded by even more TV money.

The result is that owners who are financially motivated, are thereby more motivated to achieve sporting success, than those who are only motivated by 150 years of tradition. One can fall to League One, and still be a 140 year old club - that is not affected by success or failure (eg Sheffield Wednesday).

The "foreigners will destroy our clubs" is nonsense, and the stupidest idiots in the whole of the U.K. are those fools who burnt their Manchester United season tickets because the Glaziers had bought the club...

PS And none of this has anything to do with Steve Gibson.

**AV writes: Those who burnt their season tickets over the Glazers were idiots becuase they hadn't realised their club had already sold its soul a decade before when it was transformed from local club to the Martin Edwards plc pocket money hoover.

Posted by: Ken  | November 1, 2007 7:12 AM

stockton red wrote...

Tony Black - I really dont want to spend all my time arguing on here but I am no happy clappy numpty that you perhaps took me for. I have been reading your postings for weeks.

Some of what you say has a ring of truth. Lack of ideas, staleness, people at the club too long etc.I see where you are coming from and I think the criticism is valid.

With regard to injuries unless you are a qualified physio and have inside knowledgeI dont think criticism is possible. Please go on www.physioroom.com - it lists all Premier League club injuries. West Ham have 13 injured players twice as many as anyone else. Do they have a witchdoctor in charge?

A lot is down to the fact that when we lose key personel the replacements are not as good unlike Chelsea and Man U who have two internationals for every position.

You say we have a shared passion but I'm not so sure. My passion means that on Saturday I will be at the game along with 20000+ others in the hope that by my presence and vocal support the team will raise their game against what is bound to be a very difficult opponent and win. If we lose nobody will be more disappointed than me.

If your idea of passion is sitting in your armchair at home inwardly delighting in a last minute Berbatov winner so you can commence next weeks written barrage against everybody from Gibson to the cleaner then I actually find that quite sad.

I would have thought that as a person of some intelligence you could find a more useful way of occupying your time.

Posted by: stockton red  | November 1, 2007 9:22 AM

dave wrote...

Redrebel, you has an echo of how boro seem to be now operating. I heard there are redundancies and cost cutting in the pipeline. We sold the yakubu for £12m but have yet to see it all reinvested in the squad. A shrinking squad.

Posted by: dave  | November 1, 2007 9:55 AM

DAVE W wrote...

Stop the world I want to get off! We are a quarter through the season, nov 1st as I write, some interesting comments but some stupid. Where does Tony B get off? Staying away is the only way to prove his point!

In the grand sceme off GB football where do MFC rank? Are we a bigger club than Aston Villa, bigger than say Portsmouth or even our North East rivals?

The Premiership that I'm watching has four or five teams playing good winning football, ARSENAL, MAN U, CHELSEA, PORTSMOUTH and maybe BLACKBURN.

The season can turn around with the squad hopefully back to fitness. Are we not capable of beating Spurs at home, Bolton away, are the VILLA away from home pulling up any trees? Its a results business I know ask MARTIN JOL, JOSE and LITTLE SAM. Lets give SOUTHGATE at least a season with his own squad.

The other guy who blamed GIBSON for appointing the untried SOUTHGATE, were they singing the same songs when ROBSON took us to Wembley OR when MACLAREN won the league cup or took us to EINHOVEN?

So will the doom and gloom merchants get off now and judge when at least we've played everybody in the league at least once!

I for one am very proud of MFC AND STILL BELIEVE that this team is better than BOLTON, DERBY, WIGAN, SUNDERLAND, NEWCASTLE ,FULHAM, WEST HAM, READING, BIRMINGHAM and at least on a par with Villa.

Do we honestly believe that the foreign investment in Sunderland or Birmingham will push them towards Europe - I doubt it. But lets judge after more than 11 games.

And TONY B try visiting the Riverside some of the games are actually quite good, you can't miss it , on the river just outside the town centre!

Posted by: DAVE W  | November 1, 2007 10:12 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Ken

Of course the Glazers are financially motivated and are highly motivated to have football success - The club can't survive without it.

Following their £790 million takeover only 272m came from their own sources. Last year they restructured the debt that was incurred by taking over Man Utd – The club now owes £660m pounds and they must pay £62m in interest each year to service this debt.

To help finance the debt, they have increased ticket prices sharply since their takeover. Last year, despite increases in revenue (now up to £170 million), they increased the cheapest season ticket prices by 14 percent. These rises need to continue year on year as the Glazers need to raise an additional £35 million per year just to finance the debt.

So Ken before you think the fans concerns are just drivel, look at the facts and tell me that Man Utd are better off having a club-threatening debt (6 times that of what sent Leeds under) and ordinary fans gradually getting priced out of a season ticket.

OK, Man Utd won the league last year – they often do – but the Glazer model is what is being introduced to many clubs who have little hope of winning anything.


Posted by: Werdermouth  | November 1, 2007 10:19 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Come Saturday nothing will have changed at the Boro, so lets get behind the team as one and put personal grudges and whingeing behind us.

Lets get the Riverside rocking and send the cockney boys and their new boss back to London with their tails between their legs.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 1, 2007 10:58 AM

Nigel wrote...

TB - You damn Steve Gibson by claiming he is a haulier by trade and therefore by implication not capable of running a football club.

I have two comments, first of all when Steve Gibson started Bulkhaul he wasn't an anything by trade but he created a haulage business now reported to be worth £90 million, which proves he has vision and that you don't need experience to be succesful.

Secondly when he took over the Boro the club was on the brink of oblivion had never achieved anything of consequence, played in a clapped out stadium, trained in the local park etc etc.

He has created a premiership club, with a new stadium, state of the art training facilities and an academy the envy of the entire premiership.

He has given us a team that has won a cup and played in several finals. Unprecedented success from a Boro perspective.

He isn't perfect, he seems to have a block when it comes to engaging directly with us fans, but don't tell me he can't run a football club, the facts cleary demonstrate the exact opposite.

Tell me what qualifies you to make a judgment on his abilities?

Posted by: Nigel  | November 1, 2007 11:53 AM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - watch your back, rumour has it that Graham Fordy blames this blog, for forcing him out of the club.

Beware answering your door to anyone in a scream mask pretending to be penny for a guying.

It might be Graham ready to give you a beating with a load of old programmes.

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 1, 2007 12:56 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Stocton Red and everyone else,

SO WE CAN ALL BE CRYSTAL CLEAR.

I listen to EVERY match commentary and am hoping for a result to the bitter end. I take absolutely no joy in coming here after a loss. I ONLY do so to vent my anger and frustrations at what I percieve to be the problems and if I seem to ONLY ever do so then I am quite prepared to put my hand up, to apologise and to say that I will try to avoid repeating this.

I have said many times before that I absolutely want to be proved wrong and would be the first to post in here if by the end of the season I had in fact been proved wrong and to say what a complete and utter blind, faithelss idiot I have been.

Many times I have read other peoples posts and seen other peoples point of view. When I feel I have been wrong I have said so.

But NOTHING you or anyone else can say can change my opinion about GS and Coops.

I just do not see any of the positives that some people talk of and I just do not see what has been achieved in the time that these people have been here.

I only see mistakes made by people learning as they go and I passionately believe that this football club, given the enormity of the transformation that Steve Gibson has made, has gone beyond those days.

I feel that the club is big enough to employ better people in all the key areas and that it should now be talking tough, talking positively and ONLY EVER talking about moving forwards.

I only ever hear negativity, complacency and stagnating people all too happy to look back at where we were and to languish in the clubs Premiership status as if that was now the end of our ambitions and job done.

For me, Steve Gibson is the main culprit here becasue instead of always quoting the past he should be the man driving forwards to the future and explaining to us his vision of that future along the way and how he SPECIFICALLY is going to steadily get there.

I am sorry but I just DO NOT see or hear ANY of this.

I do not see any spark. I do not see anything of any kind that makes me excited and makes me want to buy in to this.

I do not accept that just saying we want to play attacking football is good enough.

How many times must GS say that players " will learn from that " loss ? How long does it take before they will actually learn ? They way he talks just shows him up. He's a nice guy, but he has LOSER written all over his face.

" I don't feel any pressure ", well that's just great Gareth, you just stay cool and relaxed and make it sound like we are too good to go down.

" If they can put a man on the moon ", well that's just great motivational speak, isn't it ?

Then after the Man UTD game we get these pearls of wisdom....

“In many respects I’m a lot happier conceding four against United than I was with letting in two against Chelsea last week,” said the Boro boss.

“I thought the performance was a lot healthier, we created more and had an energy about us and a go at them.

“I don’t think we lost the game in terms of the goals we conceded because of our general approach to it.

“We lost because of good quality play or mistakes on our part and we went there trying to play football because I think you have to stick to your beliefs.”

WHAT ??????????????????????

OH MY GOD.

No, any seasoned manager knowing the situation we are in in the league, knowing how many key players are out and knowing that our defence is not up to it at the moment would have gone there knowing that the chance of victory were about as much as me winning a popularity contest in here and so done their very best to get a draw by playing the classic Italian " catenaccio".

A draw at Man UTD would have given us a vital point and it would have given us some much needed belief and it would have stopped the losing rot that HAS NOW CLEARLY SET IN.

Instead they fired four past us and Gareth " learn as you go " Southgate is happy at that and can see the positives.

This man WAS APPOINTED AS MANAGER AT FAR FAR TOO BIG A CLUB AS HIS FIRST JOB and THE SOONER HE GOES AND TAKES THE REST WITH HIM THE BETTER.

With regards the chairman I have repeated and repeated and repeated my priase for him endlessly and I am happy to continue to do this ad infinitum.

His record over his time here has been truly outstanding and impeccable and as I have said oh so many times, he has done more to regenerate this town and to put it on the map than any other politician has or could ever do.

So lets be clear on this. Steve Gibson has been the very best Chairman in the business.

I have NO WISH to just boot him out. I just want to give him a big, big boot up the backside and for him to see that the club is in decline and that it needs to be put right. I would much rather HIM do it than anyone else.

I just want him to communicate with us all far far better and to make us all feel part of the club, that we belong and that we are appreciated.

I simply REFUSE to part with what little cash I have got and to hand it over to people who I feel do not appreciate the sacrifice I had to make in order to get it to and to then give it to them.

Unlike you I do not believe in supporting a club unconditionally and that unless you do you are not a fan.

When my 6 numbers come in I will stand with you every week. But until then this club has to earn my support and my money, especially with Mr Lambs all too recent comments in the Gazette and on the radio.

I know I am right and I know that time will PROVE me right about GS and Coops and at the state the club is now in.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | November 1, 2007 1:02 PM

Tony Ateman wrote...

AV is, IMHO, totally correct about fearing the foreign investment.

We now have half the clubs in the hands of foreign ownership by the big bucks brigade. To succeed in their objectives, which are mostly financial, those clubs need to be in the Premier League.

When these clubs get relegated they are in big trouble, a massive loan and not enough income to service it. The investors can just walk away and leave the club in trouble.

Or maybe they will insulate themselves from relegation by stopping it. Football stinks today and after 50 years supporting my club (not the Boro), I have had enough. Money talks now, football is not a sport anymore.

Posted by: Tony Ateman  | November 1, 2007 1:16 PM

jc wrote...

Does anyone remember those heady times when tony black wrote:

"GOODBYE AV AND FELLOW POSTERS - THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES !

so I'm checking out of the game as it were and going on a sabbatical for a while."

Aaahh, those were happy minutes!

**AV writes: Ooooooh. Top bitching.

Posted by: jc  | November 1, 2007 2:11 PM

Never Happy wrote...

I wrote 'Come Saturday not