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Boro Stutter To The Ten Game Mark

Posted by on October 22, 2007 2:44 PM | 

GOING down? Far from certain. But vulnerable? Of that there can be no doubt. Gareth Southgate’s stuttering side have equalled Boro’s worst ever start to a Premiership campaign to prompt widespread relegation fears, mutterings about the manager and, right or wrong, even the first stirrings of audible protest against the main man.

There has been much talk of the "ten game test" on this blog and elsewhere. Well it is time to apply it - and the results are deeply worrying. Boro’s current tally of eight points after ten games equals the low water mark set by Steve McClaren back in 2003-04 as the worst opening in 13 Premiership seasons. Incredibly, even in the two relegation seasons Boro had more points in the bag at this stage.

The ten game mark is a watershed. By this stage of the campaign there is no refuge from the cold harsh facts. The league table doesn’t lie. It isn’t all still in flux. New players aren’t just bedding in, the team aren’t still settling into new shapes and the early surprise results, and the optimism of August, are long forgotten. After ten games the die is cast. It isn’t a blip. A quarter of the season has gone and barring statistical quirks, radical surgery in the January window or an unusually potent galvanising effect of a new boss, the battle lines are drawn.

If you are in the top six now then you can realistically hope to be ‘there or thereabouts’ come May but if you are down in the bottom six then it is gonna be a long hard winter... bottom three and it is tin hats time and digging in for a dogfight.

The truth is that after ten games shot-shy Boro look fragile, one-dimensional, wafer-thin and vulnerable as they are suspended above the drop zone. They are not converting their chances and they are leaking too many goals, and especially the first goal - eight times so far this term Boro have leaked the opener and left themselves a mountain to climb and in the last four games that momentous goal has come in the first ten minutes. Even the optimists are left wondering where the next win is coming from.

That meagre return of just eight points falls far short of what all but the most ardent Slavenites would have budgeted for after what looked on paper a gentle start to the season. It was scripted as being a campaign that would feature an early charge into the top eight before the tough games kicked in. Naive maybe but most bought into that scenario.

Instead Boro have had a start that has enveloped Teesside in an air of apathy and resignation, gnawed away further at the crowd and given rise to dark fears that they were dancing on the trapdoor again. We stuttered unconvincingly through last season and weren’t mathematically safe until the penultimate game - but had 11 points on the board by now.

It has been a disappointing start. Boro have already played two of the promoted sides in Sunderland and Birmingham and four of last term’s fellow strugglers in Fulham, Wigan, West Ham and Manchester City - teams that Boro’s progress can fairly be measured against with alarming results.Those crucial season shaping games yielded just seven points, the other coming in the derby draw with Newcastle.

You don’t get points for attractive intentions or chances created but squandered. Boro have fallen between two stools with the widely demanded switch to attacking football yet to pay dividends but the change of shape also leaving them exposed to being hit on break. Boro are not landing their own punches but are being caught cold by the counter-attack.

So where are we after ten games? Boro’s eight points now is the joint worst tally in all the 13 season’s in the Premiership so far. An average of less than a point a game is relegation form no matter how you dress it up - although. to be fair, the only other time Boro had such a bad start they escaped the basement battle after a gritty upturn.

That was back in 2003-04 under Steve McClaren. That season started with a 3-2 defeat at Fulham then a 4-0 home hammering by Arsenal and a chaotic 3-2 Riverside reverse to Leeds either side of a goalless draw at Leicester. A 2-0 defeat away at Bolton left Boro joint bottom with Wolves before the team kicked into gear and won successive games 1-0 against Everton and Southampton then drew 0-0 with Spurs and stuttered their way up into mid-table.

Eight is a worryingly low tally at this stage. Even in Boro’s two relegation season’s they were better off. In Lennie Lawrence’s campaign in 1992-93 Boro had amassed 15 points and were looking comfortable in ninth. They were buzzing after thumping champions Leeds 4-1 and had also beaten Man City twice, Sheffield United, and Aston Villa plus drawn with Man United - the tenth game and one that marked Bernie Slaven’s last goal for Boro. It wasn’t until the post-Christmas slump and an injury crisis kicked in that the entire season began to unravel.

And in the “glorious” Samba powered Wembley double and relegation season Boro had already clocked up 12 points by now. There was a sizzling start at a sold out Riverside with a debut hat-trick for Fabrizio Ravanelli in a 3-3 draw with Liverpool then the ‘golden age’ myth of brilliant football was created in successive four goal wins over West Ham and Coventry. Boro won at Everton too and drew at Sunderland to edge up to eighth before the slow motion descent into chaos that to this day is lauded as a template for entertainment and excitement.

Boro’s best return on the first ten came in 1995-96 as Robbo’s promoted team proved hard to break down and with ‘the Midget Gems’ Nick Barmby and Craig Hignett as the cutting edge in a midfield five linking up with Jan Aage Fjortoft were hurting teams too. Boro opened with a 1-1 draw at Arsenal and lost only once, 1-0 at Newcastle, and leaked just four goals as they beat Chelsea, Coventry, Blackburn, Manchester City, Sheffield Wednesday and QPR. It may be heresy to mention it but that successful shape was changed to accommodate Juninho and that team never looked a coherent unit again although they finished a respectable 12th.

The next best start came in 2002-03 when Steve McClaren's team won five out of the first ten including a sparkling 3-0 win at Spurs that had pundits drooling over a Real Madrid style display of total football and a striking master class from new boy Massimo Maccarone.

Conclusions? That In terms of the table this is as bad as it has ever been in the Premiership - but last time we were here the team dug in and ground out some functional 1-0 wins to steady nerves and carve out breathing space so the situation while sticky is yet far from critical.

And, while the team has yet to be convincing it has also yet to be at full strength. The season started with a central defensive crisis and the main man pitched in without the benefit of a pre-season while injuries up front have left the team toothless for spells. We can only hope that if and when the gaffer can get his first choice XI out then the team can do what it said in the brochure and play some attacking football at pace that produces goals from all over the pitch. If not then we can only expect a long hard struggle for survival.

Comments (88)

Nigel (Mumbai) wrote...

Eindhoven was a watershed - we had a chance to kick-on and we didn't take it. Since then we've been fed a tissue of spin by Steve Gibson and Keith Lamb.

At a time when most of our competitors were investing more in better players we were losing ground by investing less. Gates were bound to suffer - people aren't idiots and if you tell them 'expect this' and then deliver 'that' they're going to feel alienated and disillusioned.

The squad is weak and its unrealistic to expect to go the season with all our key players available. We play a more open style of football but we don't have the players who will consistently score goals. When we lose possession we are not tight enough as a team.

You put all these factors together and you end up with 8 points from 10 games and a desperate search for comfort by looking to see how many teams are worse than we are.

If Gareth Southgate had had more money available would he have brought in different and more effective players? If he had would we be higher up the table? If Martin O'Neill (or a good foreign coach) had come in instead where would we have been now?

In any event, if the club had had an honest and open dialogue with the fans would we all at least be feeling a little better than we do right now?

The problems aren't new - they're fundamentally the same. It's just that now we're more entertaining as yet again we flirt with relegation.


Posted by: Nigel (Mumbai)  | October 23, 2007 6:52 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

So here are the stats - the 10 games test gives us 8 points from 30, which is about 27% - a failure in any examination. If this form continued through the season it would equate to 30 points and definite relegation.

The good news is that we're not alone in this predicament - we're in a group of 9 clubs who are struggling to make a mark in the money game of the premiership.

Sometimes I wonder what is the point of putting in all this emotional energy every week into supporting a club that can never realistically compete in a badly conceived league.

Look at Blackburn, it's a town roughly the size of Middlesbrough - they've got a good manager, playing decent football and are 6th in the league. But they have just as many empty seats in their ground as us - people know that ultimately they'll lose their better players to bigger clubs and more often than not finish just outside the european places.

So should we go along with the people who call for a tightening up of the formation ahead of a more attacking style of football? It won't be entertaining or move us forward and I think would ultimately lose GS all credibility.

I think it's time for a Boro player to come out and say PANIC!

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 23, 2007 7:25 AM

dave wrote...

That is worrying if its a worse start than under robson.

What is also worrying is that we have only played one of the big 4 once. still to play them 7 times. also got to go to newcastle and sunderland. can we get to 40 points from the remaining 28 games? with 9 tough games?

Posted by: dave  | October 23, 2007 8:40 AM

tonyblack wrote...

Good morning all.

A lovely article AV - thanks.

I absolutely agree that going down is far from certain and that we have the players to turn things around so as to slowly climb away from the bottom places once everyone is off the physio's bench.

It isn't a good side in my opinion, but it isn't any worse than those of Birmingham, Derby, Fulham, Wigan, Reading or Sunderland. So survival should be achievable.

The question is whether or not SG and Coops can bring this team together, make them believe, and bring out their fighting spirit channelling it all in the right way.

I agree totally that a new manager can galvanise things, but I also think that a new manager can also make things worse. So I'm not advocating that we make change simply for changes sake.

If and when we change manager it cannot be for yet another novice as the chairman likes to do for some unknown reason. It has to be for a tried and tested and winning manager that brings an air of optimisim and great excitement with him.

The next manager needs that " X " factor.

The next manager must be of such quality as to start to bring the crowds back. It doesn't have to be a manager who wants 5 million a year in wages it just needs to be someone who has the CV that merits him being the manager at Middlesbrough Football Club.

I would go for someone with a CV like a George Graham but with a more attacking style of play.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 23, 2007 8:47 AM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - If Boro had a first choice 11 on the pitch I am sure they will improve.

However if GS continues to select Boateng then Boro will be playing most games with 10 players.

The bottom nine teams in the PL are all poor sides.

I thought Spurs would easily climb the table, but this will not happen until Jol is sacked as to many players appear not to want to play for him.

I think Boro can get 12 points from the next 10 games, taking us to 20 points from 20 games.

I think 38 points will be enough to stay up this season so that would put Boro back on track for survival.

However we all hoped for better, even if many of us suspected a season of struggle.

GS has to show his metal and drop Boteng, recall Wheater and maybe have a midfield 4 of Downing, Cattermole, O'Neill and Aliadiere.

Get the team to play with discipline and not give them horlicks before the game.

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 23, 2007 9:44 AM

mark j wrote...

If Wenger can drop Gilberto for Flamini then that clearly proves that the Cattermole over Boateng point we all keep making is a valid one!

I dont want to hear any more excuses , I just want to see Boro win a game some time soon.

If Robbie Keane has scored 7 goals in 7 games and spurs are still in the bottom three then we are in a lot of trouble.

Ever had that sinking feeling?

Posted by: mark j  | October 23, 2007 9:59 AM

Chris D wrote...

Spot on AV

Frigthening to think that we have been relegated having had more points than this at this stage of the season, but heartening that with the same we have survived.

Lets hope we can pick those points back up because, I'm not sure of anyone else has noticed, if we aren't looking safe by the end of March, our last 7 games are looking pretty tough and we could struggle to gain double figures in points from them, even if we are playing well!

They are :
Chelsea (Away))
Man U (Home)
Spurs (Away)
Bolton (Home)
Sunderland (Away)
Portsmouth (Home)
Man City (Home)

Posted by: Chris D  | October 23, 2007 10:38 AM

David Morrison wrote...

Absolutely right, a good start to the season is a must for a team of our stature. we should have put teams to bed and we havnt and also one man dosnt mean the team is full of pace.

Aliadiere is pivotal to our attacking intentions and with him out the long ball game adopted on saturday shows our midfield hasnt got the legs to join up with mido (o.neill apart) or the creativity to interchange positions as boateng is static and looks a yard short.

come january we need to bring in more pace, try arsenal for some kids or spend money on getting stable premier league players to sure up the the team and give it a kick up the backside!

Posted by: David Morrison  | October 23, 2007 10:58 AM

Scott Jackson wrote...

I was going to comment on it, but you seem to have said most of it in the last paragraph Anthony.

We are coming up to a period of games where, although ten games in, Southgate can look at putting his first choice 11 into the games that we need them for.

Pogatetz, Arca, Aliadiere, Mido (looking very unfit at the moment) and Tuncay hopefully fit will give us options that we've not had as yet, however Southgate needs to come up with a game plan and stick to it.

Tuncay hasn't shown us anything of his promise yet, equal to DGL and Aliadiere in the goal stakes, who cares how many chances they miss I want to see them scoring.

What these first ten games have shown is a complete lack of a decent squad through middling investment in the Summer. The players we brought in will do well for us I believe, but there weren't enough of them to cover a regular season in the Premier League.

When was the last time we had a relatively injury free season? I honestly cannot remember.

Posted by: Scott Jackson  | October 23, 2007 11:43 AM

holgateoldskool wrote...

All of this was I am afraid predictable. Buying non scoring strikers coupled with a leaky defence spells trouble - and we are in it.

Unless we go back to basics we will continue to struggle. Can someone explain where the sense is in playing a more attacking game when you haven't the personnel to stick the ball in the net ??

Worryingly, Gareth appears to be acting with greater naivity than last year. I fear for the club. His position should be questioned but I doubt it will.

Posted by: holgateoldskool  | October 23, 2007 12:01 PM

Mark wrote...

The season that started full of hope full of thoughts about Europe. Finally becoming a top 8 team on a regular basis, challenging for Europe and maybe a good cup run.........

Suddenly becomes a seson of fear, relegation, out of a cup, scared of the draw in the other cup in case we get a big team, a minnow, or heaven forbid a team we always play well against......

The table does not lie. We are a poor team with an ill equipped manager who was left with some dodgy players who went and identified some other dodgy players to not play with them either.

Some good signings who really arent fit who really can't play with each other. Perhaps a panic buy and some bad management of players ...one who should have stayed and one who should have gone a lot quicker.

I think that about sums us up. Relegation. The club that nearly did not get relegated....but wait for it... yes they did. And you know what it should not be a surprise when it happens. The whole of football knows it, the people of Teeside know it. I mean even bloody She-Rah knows it.

And you know what we are gonna do about it? Prove them right.

Posted by: Mark  | October 23, 2007 12:25 PM

james emmerson wrote...

probably along with many others I share your concerns wholeheartedly Vic. What concerns me even more is where on earth the minimum requirement of 32 more points is going to come from.

If you think we've got 28 games left it sounds feasible, but we still have seven games to play against the usual 'top 4' (Man U, Chels, Liv, Ars) and I am being highly optimistic in saying let's suppose we get three points from those seven games...that leaves us needing, in actual fact, 29 from 21.

Or put another away, 10 wins. Or put ANOTHER way, a win every other game. In fact, whichever way you put it, it looks a huge ask now....we have to travel also to places like Newcastle, Blackburn and Portsmouth (places where we haven't won in ages) so our prospects - and remember this is just for survival, let alone winning anything - are looking bleak.

I saw a Derby fan on MotD2 saying he'd rather see his side win at Barnsley than keep getting hammered at Anfield and the Emirates and I must say I knew exactly what he meant....

Posted by: james emmerson  | October 23, 2007 12:31 PM

Nirnaeth Arnoediad wrote...

Reading 10pts
Fulham 8pts
Birmingham 8pts
Wigan 8pts
Sunderland 8pts
Middlesbrough 8pts
Tottenham 7pts
Derby 6pts
Bolton 5pts

That is how the bottom 9 teams shape up at the moment. With the exception of Spurs the other 7 teams are the ones we are in a mini-league against and if we cannot finish above 3 of them then we deserve to be relegated.

I agree, 8 is a low total but in the context of this seasons table it isn't as bad as it first seems. If not for a last minute equaliser by the mackems we would be in 12th and would there be so much doom and gloom?

As has been said we have yet to field our strongest 11 so far this season. Hopefully Poggy returning will help the defence and we stop handicapping ourselves by giving the opposition a goal start.

Posted by: Nirnaeth Arnoediad  | October 23, 2007 1:32 PM

GrahamG wrote...

This season mirrors the final Robson season for me - a manager out of his depth, a stubborn chairman, apathetic fans, demotivated, substandard players.

As I previously stated, there is simply no way that Southgate will be sacked. Its not going to happen. We all KNOW that deep down and so, in my opinion, we will limp into the First Division and then who knows what will happen...

As previous writers have mentioned we should have kicked on from Eindhoven when our profile was high. To pick Southgate was crazy. A year later to sell your two best strikers was even crazier.

Posted by: GrahamG  | October 23, 2007 2:07 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

AV, Although it's interesting to look at the historical context of our current performance compared to seasons gone by, it was also true that in those seasons there were only 2 big guns (Man U and Arsenal), and besides the few other 'glamour' clubs, we could generally compete both in the transfer market and on the pitch.

We took a gamble this year in the transfer market and we weren't able to buy proven quality up front. Also our right-sided solution now looks likely to move inside and solve our sluggish central midfield problem - maybe it's time to recall Johnson from Watford?

We desperately need a cool-headed accomplished striker in January - but then again so do half the premiership. So having acquired Spurs' 5th choice strike maybe we should now go for their 4th choice striker - ie Defoe!

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 23, 2007 2:56 PM

tonymonaco wrote...

Ian gill,

mate, i only asked you a series of questions on the other blog. My intention wasnt to offend so if i did i apologise.

According to people like Gary Gill and Mr Slaven GS and co arent to blame for any of our problems. According to them he's rebuilding and were it not for the injuries we would be doing a whole heap better.

When Gibson, Lamb, GS, Coops and co eventually all go, which they will and the sooner the better, Gill and Slaven should also make way for a more objective and less butt kissing approach.

Mark my words. THIS TEAM IS GOING DOWN or we will JUST escape by the seats of our pants and we will be in exactly the same position next season unless we get rid and make way for NEW BORO, just as Blair did with the labour party.

This club is riddled with people who just don't cut it anymore and havent for some time so is this team - full of home grown lads who arent yet up to the job either.

Lets face it- wheater, cattermole and the like would only get first team places here.

Why is mendi STILL here? Hows it possible that this situation has been allowed to carry on like this?

We have no attack, no defence, no bench, no spirit, no spark and when we go behind its goodnight vienna and will the last one out turn the lights off.

GET RID OF THESE PEOPLE. GET RID BEFORE WE GO DOWN- tony monaco

Posted by: tonymonaco  | October 23, 2007 3:16 PM

jiffy wrote...

Thanks Nirnaeth for including that little table in your posting.

This is our mini-league now

7 of our 8 points have come from those clubs. We have just a single point from 6 games against the rest of the league so we may as well forget about taking much from games against them.

Its games against these 8 teams that will decide our fate and we have 3 of them coming up after ManU.

Its 9 points from those 3 games - frankly I dont think 6 or 7 will be enough, we need to stop these teams taking points off us just as much as we need them for ourselves - or we can forget the Premiership next season and probably for a few years.

Posted by: jiffy  | October 23, 2007 3:46 PM

Alf wrote...

A few of us saw this seasons struggle was on the cards. First half of last season was built on Yakubu's goals and 2nd half was built on Viduka's goals.

You can not lose them and expect to replace them with unproven strikers without taking steps back. We miss those penalties than the yak and viduka would get.

Expect a striker crisis when Mido clears off with Egypt. The club have no excuse for not getting someone in when they know this wil happen and we still have £6m from the Yakubu money.

Posted by: Alf  | October 23, 2007 4:43 PM

robmitton wrote...

Dear AV,

If the 'positive' BORO fans want to be sado-masochistic then so be it...they can pay for us to go down.

Make the tickets cheaper, fill the stadium and bring back Century and reach out to the fans in our communities.

Then with the subsequent buzz around town and playing to full houses we'll get struggling players to raise their game by 10% and start winning.

If we do get relegated we can always give the BORO execs a raise.

Robin and Juan Carlos Sanz (CRONIE)

Posted by: robmitton  | October 23, 2007 4:51 PM

Pedro de Espana wrote...

Agree with all the above bloggers, this has been coming for a long time. The choice of GS, nice man as he is, was the wrong one, we really need a not very nice man, and somebody with experience. That is just something that takes time to gain, and at the Boro we never have that in abundance.

That is why our buys require to be as instant hits as you can get, and as previous bloggers have stated, what do we do in January??

Unfortuantely, we do tend to look on the black side, have you noticed the number of teams around that have played more games away than at home.

Posted by: Pedro de Espana  | October 23, 2007 5:17 PM

steve h wrote...

What all those stats prove, is that basically it doesn't matter if we start great or poor, we nearly always end up in the middle ground of not good enough for europe but too good to go down. I expect nothing different this year.

Posted by: steve h  | October 23, 2007 6:03 PM

AlanH wrote...

I genuinely believe we will improve from current form but not convinced the improvement will be sufficient to launch us up the league and steer us well away from the threat of relegation.

MFC have made some terrible decisions in recent times, both on and off the pitch. I personally feel Gibson and Lamb opted for Southgate, as he was micro-manageable unlike a high profile signing such as Martin O’Neil or even strong-minded Mowbray.

Southgate has been given limited funds to strengthen a team that is minus Viduka and Yakubu so has been forced to shop in TK Max rather than Harrods.

My finger is being pointed firmly at Gibson and Lamb not the management team. Their relationship with fans has become severely strained manifesting mass desertion and an overwhelming feeling of being disenfranchised.

Arrogance and stubbornness are accusations being thrown and Gibson and his cohorts and the case for the prosecution is strong. Gibson needs to start building bridges with the fans as well as building a solid team.

Posted by: AlanH  | October 23, 2007 7:29 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Tonymonaco

No offence taken just surprised that we were saying basically the same things and could'nt understand the links.

On another subject Manu looked good at the front and not so good at the back tonight. Luckily with the pace and precision we have in centre midfiled we should see plenty of goals on Saturday.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 23, 2007 9:24 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

We can't score to save our lives yet tonight Morrison and Johnson both score for the baggies and the hornets.

After 10 games our top scorer is another midfielder and our survival hopes rest with a half fit Mido who between fasting and going away in the new year is assisted by can't score (DGL), won't score (Aliadiere) and might score (Tuncay).

The warning was evident during and after the misleading Birmingham game. We played brilliant, flowing, exciting even cavalier like football but could only score 2 when we should have had at least 5 or 6.

If we can't score when we dominate games what chance do we have when we are up against it. The West Ham and Everton games confirmed this further.

All of the above allied to the alienating, appalling and arrogant customer relations fiasco during the summer has resulted in a nowhere to run nowhere to hide scenario for the senior executives in the club.

The signs on the pitch are very reminiscent of the final Robbo season with the realisation that the coaching staff quite simply do not know what they are doing but then again deep down we always knew that.

Ironically maybe the blunt harsh truth from a now ostracised radio pundit may have done some good to the current dictatorial-like regime by making them address reality by now.

Sadly they still haven't learnt. The opportunity for unity and positivity to be gained from embracing the recent successful charitable achievements of Slaven's motley crew representing Boro on national TV has been spurned and further alienating the fans when they desperately need them most.

Things on and off the pitch are in total disarray. Lets hope somebody in the club steps up to the mark and quickly!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | October 23, 2007 10:55 PM

allycat wrote...

Quite simply we will get relegated unless drastic changes occur. Those changes could be that the defence suddenly learn each others name or that the strikers remember that they are allowed to put the ball in the net or that the midfield pass to someone in the same colour shirt as they are wearing.

It would also help if the goalkeeper didn't always try and lead with his wrong hand when trying to make a save.

Or even possibly installing a manager/coach/director of football/tea lady who has an ounce of coaching ability or tactical nous.

One or all of the above may make things change and means we do not go down, however third bottom is looking pretty inevitable.

It will be absolutley nailed on if, not including the Man Utd game, we do not take 10 point from the next 4 games - Spurs (h), Bolton(a) Villa(h) Reading(a).

I live in Jersey and there are not many Boro fans here, however most casual observers that i have spoken to that have no interest in Boro either way, are of the opinion that we are a poor team and look likely to go down.

If things stay the same, we will only finish above Derby and Sunderland this year.

Posted by: allycat  | October 24, 2007 3:58 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

Redcar Red, I think you've got it pretty well spot on.

Gibson and Lamb have taken their collective managerial eye off the proverbial ball and are sounding more like the ugly sisters than Cinderella these days.

OK, it's not an easy job running a football club these days but the whole season seems to be built on naive optimism rather than calculated logic.

How could experienced people believe that a rookie manager would blend a mixture of unproven forwards with inexperienced academy graduates and out-of-position midfielders into a competitive premiership outfit?

Maybe a Gus Hiddink would have just about pulled it off but it was a massive ask for Southgate.

If you add to that the loss of Boro's trademark white band from the kit - plus the embarassing new badge and probably the most appalling away strip ever devised then the accidents are not just happening - they're queueing up.

Gibson is in danger of turning from hero to Nero - it's time to put the violin down Steve and stop the fiddling before our premiership status goes up in flames.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 24, 2007 7:33 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Prehaps the PL could help us get some unity by docking us 3 points.

This may help the fans and team get the everyone is against mentality and then we may get some passion on and off the pitch

**AV writes: Hey, don't give them any daft ideas.

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 24, 2007 8:43 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

When we were in Europe we complained about the workload of playing twice a week and travelling. We always seemed to start slowly and were leggy against teams who had a full week to prepare.

We now have three matches against teams in europe.

ManU have come back from a long trip to eastern europe with injuries; Spurs play on Thursday, a game at the weekend, a carling cup game then us the following weekend; Bolton play europe, league, cup, league, europe and then us.

Will we be fast out of blocks in those three matches?

Against ManU a good, up and at them performance would work wonders for confidence.

Then with Spurs and Bolton we have a chance to impose ourselves against tired players in two massive six pointers.

Or will we just roll over and allow ManU a training ground romp to loosen their muscles and warm down? Will we do our normal trick and give fellow strugglers a chance to kick start their seasons?

Whatever the debate about squad depth, injuries, formations and coaching credentials this is a test of attitude. We will forgive many faults but never a lack of spine to give it a go.

If we come out meekly in these three matches then we have to seriously doubt the football side of the club.

It is line in the sand time.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 24, 2007 9:19 AM

mark j wrote...

In the Beauty contest that is the premier league we are starting to look like a man dressed as a woman and the beauty spot has slid down and looks like a chin wart - the away strip only adds to the aura!

After watching Vidic take out the Dynamo forward inside the area and give Nowt, then give a pen at the other end for a outside the box incident that the linesman didn't give but once the ref had then waved him over to say penalty!

You may fear of another blinkered refereeing performance as we are playing Man U . It should have been3-3 but don't worry lads as I intend to replace the ref in our match at old traford and remedy the inbalance of one sided decisions over the last few seasons - I think a penalty every time a man U player touches the ball might give us a narrow 1 nil result as our strikers are a bit goal shy.

Posted by: mark j  | October 24, 2007 9:41 AM

Billy wrote...

Staying with the "off-field" observations from Redcar Red and Werdermouth, I'd agree that had the Boro team that won that charity cup included the likes of Gary Gill and Me (me, me, me) Mark Page, then the team would have been paraded around the pitch like conquering heroes.

There are so many things that are stale surrounding the club and we all know that nothing will really change and yet we keep coming back for more in hope that something will. It's really sad.

I had a nightmare journey getting back up for the game on Saturday and within two minutes of me getting into the ground Chelski score and it's game over.

I think we all agree that Boro's shirts make us look scruffy and cheap. I saw a Chicago Fire shirt on TV when they beat Beckham's team and thought ours could look like that.

Little things like a decent shirt made by a decent company can help galvanise people in pre-season. Take a look here for what we could have had...

(http://web.mlsnet.com/news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20071006&content_id=121715&vkey=news_chf&fext=.jsp&team=t100).

And don't get me started on Page playing his stupid music when we score, although the way things are going it might be a while before we have to hear it again...

Posted by: Billy  | October 24, 2007 9:49 AM

lg wrote...

I'm a supporter of over 50 years' standing and I've never written to the Gazette before; however, here goes...

I predicted relegation in September '96 when we standing 3rd in league! Why? We were giving goals away for fun! Oct'07 - has anything changed?

10 games in and we're already looking at other teams' results to keep us out of bottom 3. Saturday's team was almost picked to lose. Amongst the comedy of errors, Taylor's first 3 passes went straight to Chelsea players and pass no.2 brought the first goal.

Cattermole ought to have played before Boateng and I'm no means a Cattermole fan.

So many players were anonymous. In Johnston, we have a proper left winger who can actually get to the goal line and pull the ball back for players to run on to and score so, of course, he's doing this at another club!

89% of Gazette readers thought relegation a definite possibility.(Your on line poll)

Brian Clough won 2 European cups on a succession of 1-0 wins; let's bore ourselves to death and do the same.

QUITE SIMPLY, WE CAN'T AFFORD RELEGATION.
WE'D NEVER GET BACK UP!!

Posted by: lg  | October 24, 2007 11:58 AM

Never Happy wrote...

On to Saturday, does anyone think it may be worthwhile playing 5 at the back against Man U?

As both Taylor and Young often get caught up field prehaps playing Wheater, Woodgate and Riggott would give us some solidarity at the back.

Playing an offensive midfield 4 of Downing, Cattermole, O'Neill and Aliadiere or Tunacy with Mido up front could also mean that we are not to defensive.

Something differant needs to be done, maybe it might just work.

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 24, 2007 12:02 PM

tonyblack wrote...

GOODBYE AV AND FELLOW POSTERS - THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES !

Well guys, I don't know if it's because I woke up in a bad mood today or because I've just read through this board and become thoroughly depressed to the point where it's actually scaring me, but I'm fed up of reading about and then writing about things that I can NEVER have an effect on and so I'm checking out of the game as it were and going on a sabbatical for a while.

DEAR GOD ( A.K.A. STEVE GIBSON )

A football club SHOULD BE at the very heart of its local community, bringing together people of all colours and creeds in a shared interest and common cause.

MFC is no longer.

A football club that IS at the very heart of its local community SHOULD engage with its fans to the point that they really do feel part of the club and that they really do feel wanted by the club to be part of the club.

MFC is no longer.

When Saturday comes... Where has the childlike magic, buzz and air of excitement gone ?

I for one haven't had this feeling for quite some time and I'm sick to death of YOU calling the shots and just doing what you think's best all the time.

You have absolutely no right to do as you alone pleases just because you stuck the money in. If many of us in here had the cash that you have we would do the same and I think we would act in a different, less all seeing, all knowing manner than you do now and have for some time.

They say absolute power corrupts. You and your toothless rotweiler sidekick have become all to Thatcherite in what will hopefully soon be your last period in office UNLESS YOU GO BACK TO WHAT YOU ONCE WERE.

You WERE rightly the King Of Teesside who saved this club with your own money and your true fans passion and personal desire to inject life into an area of the country long since forgotten by the government and you have done more for Teesside than any other poloitician has, or could ever do.

So please don't think that we have forgotten or that we aren't grateful, because we will NEVER forget and we will ALWAYS say thank you.

But you have become stale. You have become part of the problem where once you were the main part of the cure.

The passion for success that you once had has long since fizzled out and you have now accepted the " Small Town In Europe " mentality that has become an endemic chant on the terraces, which, although once was true, has now just become a form of self mocking which I'm sure the makers of C4 loved, because that small town in Europe simply no longer exsits.

Middlesbrough IS NOT the best place to live, we all know that. But times are a changing and big things have, and are continuing to happen continuosly which is what C4 forgot to take into account. Changes that YOU in GREAT part are soley resposnible for.

So were are NO LONGER that small town in Europe that the stupid fans keep on chanting about, WE ARE getting to be a BIG town in Europe and so our mentality and our aspirations should match this change.

I can tell you for a fact that I'd much rather live here than in the wild west that has now become many parts of Liverpool and Manchester and the like.

This attitude, this small minded mentality and this constant harking back to what we once were, instead of pushing on and striving for ever higher levels of professionalism and success, IS what IS NOW the problem.

Simply BEING in the Premiership is no longer a real reason for celebration, as THIS is where we BELONG and THIS is we EXPECT to be, and unless YOU wake up to this fact then I'm afraid it's time for you to go.

This club ABSOLUTELY NEEDS to change if it is to survive in a thriving way, as opposed to simply existing.

At the moment their is an all too familiar stench of a contented acceptance from you and from many in the local sports media for the pitiful mediocrity that we have now become, all in the name of what we once were and so now we should be EVER grateful to you and just accept, like Mr Slaven seems to think, that you know best.

Steve,

Prices are too high for people with kids and the odd freebee on Boxing day is just yet another slap in the face by your people who seem incapable or just unwilling to come up with something better.

Going to a football match with kids is just like going to the cinema. No matter how good the film was you just can't help feeling a pain as a result of being fleeced.

Why can't kids go for free or for a couple of quid and why can't you do kids food and drink at cost so that more people with families can actually afford to go more often without needing to get a loan out in order to do so ?

It's not as if the ground is ever full these days, is it ?

The out of touch, Stalinist PR peremially coming out of the club on the back pages of the Gazette fools no one but instead just make a fool out of the entire club.

Crowds are down. Where the hell are all the flags in our hard core home end like ALL the big clubs in Europe have ? Why must it be left to the fans organisations to raise what little money they can for the odd flag ? Why haven't YOU and YOUR PR people set about funding these things so that we light up our home end and make our very own fortress Riverside? What exactly do those people do at this club and get paid for ?

It isn't exactly hard is it Steve? We can have a fund raising scheme for bloody bricks and a yellow brick road or whatever the hell it is, and there are endless flags all over the town centre, but surely YOU and YOUR people should have thought about doing it where it matters most first, i.e. in the stands as I've just mentioned.

Fans don't feel part of the club as you lot keep on making vital decisions without consulting properly with everyone who's interested first.

The football is truely dreadful, and year on year you produce what can only be described as bloody awful, dull, lifeless football kits that inspire no one.

Unlike in your Bulkhaul business, at the club for some unknown reason you just keep employing people who haven't go any CV of any kind. Gareth and Coops are top men, but as managers and coach's they stink and we all know it. When was the last time you looked at the " Who's Who " section of the clubs website ?

Is this REALLY the best that we / you can do ?

Dear Steve,

SHAPE UP, OR DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND SHIP OUT

You have too many stale people at the club who have been their far too long and so now just simply clock in, and clock out.

Rant over.

Goodnight Vienna.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 24, 2007 12:05 PM

robmitton wrote...

Dear Billy,

Just to show you nasty Boro execs have made me I'm gonna play Pigbag at your funeral! hehehehehe....


Watch out for my Communist Manifesto to save the BORO comrades!!

Robin Mitton
FOOTBALLSKI FOR NATIONS

Posted by: robmitton  | October 24, 2007 3:50 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Excellant point made elsewhere by Rob Nicholls about players we might bring in now or Janauary.

We have seen Young, Mido, Woodie struggle after missing out on pre season due to tranfers or injury. Any out of contract or out of favour players will have played little or no football by the time we get them in. Even if they have kept active they are unlikely to be match fit.

A case of buyer beware but it doesnt mean we can do nothing so no abuse please.

Whoever we bring in needs to be here for 1st Jan because we cant allow half a season to settle in or in Simbas case a season and a half.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 24, 2007 4:41 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

One of the problems we seem to have is an unsettled team playing different formations all the time. Playing five at the back could work if the full backs are free to attack as wing backs. You also probably need two up front to keep the other teams defence honest. If you dont play it regularly it can be a recipe for disaster - look at England in Croatia.

Whatever we do, we need to settle into some pattern other than start late, let one in early, defend like drains, miss what chances you get and pack in.

At the moment I would settle for a full shift from the players starting at kick off (and I mean for the first half) and ending after the whistle (full time not half time).

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 24, 2007 6:35 PM

Mish1975 wrote...

TONY BLACK... HERE HERE!!!!!!!

Posted by: Mish1975  | October 24, 2007 7:00 PM

Score Draw wrote...

Gareth for Gods sake say something to lift the spriits before the game don't wait until we get beat and say 'we played well ....' 'learned something from it ....'

Why don't you start by demanding that we get a fair crack of the whip against United ? Maybe the Ref could refrain from booking us just because we are from the worst town in the Universe ? Possibly on this occasion the ref could only give the Portugese tart a penalty if he deserves one?

By all means be fair, thoughtful and intellectual but that includes standing up for the team and the town. Get the Boro Boys fired up and cheered up before the game.

If the Anorexic Anderson is strolling around the pitch make sure we have the Prawn Sandwich brigade choking on their corporate delicacies when he gets well and truly clattered.

Then you won't have to appear in front of Sky TV trying to think what to say. Make sure there is something to talk about - That's what the good managers do to take the presure off the team.

Let's have Style + Spice + Spite. Start the ball rolling by simply saying "Let's hope Ronaldo's dives are punished and not rewarded this year".

One more thing - I don't agree with TonyBlack on the Boro and the lnks with the Community. There isn't a better club in the country than the Boro when it comes to being fully integrated with the whole community.

They are the leaders in reaching out to the community and not just the season ticket holders.

God Bless the Boro !!!!!!!!

Posted by: Score Draw  | October 24, 2007 8:27 PM

Redcar Red wrote...

Adding to TB's post above!

A passionate plea to SG!

Please don't become the modern day Charlie Amer because at the moment you appear to be doing a really good impression. Boro fans everywhere beg you to step forward and pull Excalibur from the stone one more time!

Posted by: Redcar Red  | October 24, 2007 8:49 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Score Draw,

I hear what you say and absolutely agree that the club do many good things, espcially for the kids, but this wasn't the point I was trying to make.

" A football club SHOULD BE at the very heart of its local community, bringing together people of all colours and creeds in a shared interest and common cause.

MFC is no longer.

A football club that IS at the very heart of its local community SHOULD engage with its fans to the point that they really do feel part of the club and that they really do feel wanted by the club to be part of the club. "

The reference here is to the fans and as Alan H correctly put it with reference to gibson and lamb, which is spot on in my opinion.....

" Their relationship with fans has become severely strained manifesting mass desertion and an overwhelming feeling of being disenfranchised. "

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 24, 2007 8:59 PM

ROBIN MARX wrote...

DEAR RED COMRADES,

COMMUNIST MANIFESTO TO SAVE THE BORO

1. Put red flags around the stadium in consonance with the team's colours.

2. Make Arthur Scargill Chairman and Ken Livingstone as Living Icon of Holy Boro relics (along with Pagey's jokes).

3. Sing The Internatioanale ALL THE TIME match is on.

4. Every fan joining the supporters club gets free hammer and sickle as a symbol of fraternity and brotherhood to the club.

5. Dismiss the board of management and ship them into the Tees.

6. Every time the team wins complimentary condoms to all adults to show strength and spread social intercourse or even bondaging between Tees folk.

7. If club loses all females over 18 to get the morning after pill to commemorate the event.

8. In the cold dark months ahead Arthur Scargill to hand out a few pounds of coal, matches and lighter fuel so fans can commune warmly until vast quantities of vodka have taken away every semblance of reality and consciousness from them thus enabling said fans to celebrate all defeats as well as the odd win - it'll keep the solidarity thing going.

9. At half time Mark Page - for the viewer's delectation - to be placed in a cage with his working for free builder
(although the builder did not know this)
who should proceed to publicly castigate him for his ability to bore people too with his inane ME, ME, ME chant of permanent self-glorification.

10. If the team fails we demolish the 'old' capitalist stadium which symbolises the worst forms of parasite capitalism in the North of England EVER!

This goes against our precepts of socialism without consumerism. We will build a downgraded version of the old stadium with no heating, no toilets and no electrical facilities which will contribute to the greening of the environment.

All management must avoid suits and posh cars which are repellant symbols of capitalism and decay!

We hope comrades you love the vision of Robin and his reddish Cronie which only wants to bring a new dawn to the already sinking club; reeling from the manouvres of greedy capitalism, liberalism and irresponsible management of the club.

HAIL FANS OF BORO we await your adherence to the new RED vision of this stinking club which we want to rebuild.

A final touch = FANS OF BORO UNITE, YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CLUB!

MARX ROBIN & FRIEDRICH CRONIE!

**AV writes: Splitter!

Posted by: ROBIN MARX  | October 24, 2007 9:05 PM

Billy wrote...

Thanks Robin, hopefully you won't be playing Pigbag for me too soon then. A mate of mine played it at his wedding, but it kinda worked there for some reason. I wonder if Page was there later in the evening to play it after the conjugals?

Posted by: Billy  | October 25, 2007 9:08 AM

Never Happy wrote...

"People over here know Tuncay was such a key player for Fenerbahce and they can't understand how he has dropped so low in his performances - mainly for his country.

"Initially it was thought that Tuncay has not been playing in his right position because he played as a striker in a couple of games. He is certainly not a striker.

"He is an attacking midfielder who can play between midfield and attack. He can also play on either wing. But I know that Middlesbrough's manager has played him there, so it's just about getting his form back."

If Tuncay is to prove his worth (60k a week?) then GS should play him in one position and let him get used to that role

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 25, 2007 9:19 AM

Steve Lynas wrote...

Tony Black.........SPOT ON!

it's time to stop living in the past and climb out of the box.
It's no good harping on about what happened years ago it's what's happening NOW that matters.

I really can't understand the apparent miserliness of the club at the moment. OK, we spent 23 million squid in the transfer market. But we didn't really did we? We recouped 11.5 mill and 1 mill from the sale of Yak and James Morrison respectively.

You'd have thought with all the TV money (which has ruined the game by the way) coming this season, that we would be doing our damnedest to stay IN the premier league.

You've got to speculate to accumulate.

(Still, at least our local derby will be against Hartlepool in the future and they'll bring a decent crowd with them.)

Posted by: Steve Lynas  | October 25, 2007 9:22 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

I think ultimately SG is powerless to take the club forward in today's premiership. The price of entry into the top 8 is way above what we as a club can afford.

Let's look at players contracts versus gate income - Take the example of Mendietta: I'm estimating (given that he's so reluctant to move on) that he's probably on around 40K a week, which is 2 million per year.

Given that a season ticket costs around 500 pounds then that means 4,000 season ticket holders are paying every year for him to sit in the reserves.

This also means that the rest of the 25,000 turning up to the riverside will only be able to pay for the wages of another 5 or 6 top quality players.

So no wonder the fans feel disenfranchised - it hardly matters in financial terms (as Lamb so tactfully eluded) that the paying fans turn up to a game.

Even if we finished bottom we would still receive 30 million quid - which incidently is equivalent to 60,000 season ticket holders or 15 top quality players wages.

Hence TV money is far more important than fans money - TV is the dealer and football clubs are hooked.

The problem now is that more and more clubs are selling their souls to foreign 'investors' in an attempt to get the cash to pay even higher wages and transfer fees.

I think SG's gamble is that the bubble will burst and in the meantime we will cut our costs and try and ride it out.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 25, 2007 9:44 AM

dave wrote...

Very good points Werdermouth,

the clubs now value tv money above the fans turning up at the stadium.

We are an inconvenience and nuissance and they treat us like those people who continually write in to points of view complaining about tv programmes. "IF you don't like it then don't watch it" sort of attittude

Posted by: dave  | October 25, 2007 10:34 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I hope that the players contracts have a clause which states that if the club are relegated then they wages will drop as well.

I don’t think that this is the case judging by some of the effort put in by the players.

Werdermouth
You may be right that SG is hoping that the bubble bursts, and also that FIFA insist on a limited number of foreign players per squad.

However it does not seem to be an educated gamble and if we are relegated those players that are able to get another club will leave like rats from a sinking ship.

SG may then get his wish for a home grown squad and we will have to live with Championship football played in front of even smaller crowds.

SG needs to bite the bullet and try and attract new investors into the club.

He needs to reduce ticket prices, the Sky money will compensate for any losses from ticket sales.

He needs to employ someone who has an idea about PR.

The club seems to be lacking in leadership on and off the pitch, come on Mr Gibson step up to the mark.

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 25, 2007 10:39 AM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

No need for a bleeding novel tonyblack and mitton.
Lets just roll our sleeves up and get stuck into United!
C'mon BORO!

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | October 25, 2007 1:00 PM

borolad32 wrote...

Just a quick thought,

We all know how much we have missed Arca as a creative force in the middle of the park. I keep hearing Tuncay mentioned as an attacking midefielder that scores goals, well why not put him in midfield (central midfield pushing forward) and let him attack.

Play ali and mido up front, with o,neil on the wing and i think we may get an upturn in performences and RESULTS.

Posted by: borolad32  | October 25, 2007 1:12 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Ignorant

Leave TB and Rob to write their novels if they want but your comment about the Boro is right.

Get stuck into ManU. Like Arsenal they earn their right to play pretty football by hard work. You dont have to drag ten men behind the ball to get a point, you have to work your socks off to keep the other team busy.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 25, 2007 1:56 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

OK, before we move on to talking about the Man U game here is a table I've compiled today.

It basically shows how the premier league is quickly moving from containing english clubs to english brands.

In the race for more cash most of the current top 10 clubs have recently been sold to big investors - nearly all foreign

It also shows the nationality of the manger and the number players in their squad and those that are english (note: many of the english players in these squads rarely play first team football).

I believe this is not only killing our club game but also our national game.

It's time the FA and the government started regulating the game as it's a major part of our cultural identity and not just a business opportunity.


TEAM - Ownership (Year sold) - Manager - Squad (english)

1. ARSENAL - English - French - 30 (7)
2. MAN UTD - American (2005) - Scottish - 28 (11)
3. MAN CITY - Thai (2007) - Swedish - 26 (7)
4. LIVERPOOL - American (2007) - Spanish - 33 (11)
5. PORTSMOUTH - French (2006) - English - 23 (8)
6. BLACKBURN - English* (2008?) - Welsh - 32 (5)
7. CHELSEA - Russian (2003) - Israeli - 27 (8)
8. NEWCASTLE - English (2007) - English - 27 (10)
9. ASTON VILLA - American (2007) - N Irish - 24 (13)
10. WEST HAM - Icelandic (2006) - English - 28 (15)
11. EVERTON - English - Scottish - 27 (10)
12. READING - English - English - 35 (15)
13. FULHAM - Egyptian - N Irish - 31 (9)
14. WIGAN - English - English - 28 (13)
15. BIRMINGHAM - English** - English - 28 (10)
16. SUNDERLAND - Irish - Irish - 34 (11)
17. MIDDLESBRO - English - English - 33 (21)
18. TOTTENHAM - English - Dutch - 29 (12)
19. DERBY - English - Scottish - 31 (16)
20. BOLTON - Irish - Scottish - 33 (8)

* Due to become American owned
** Due to become Hong Kong owned

**AV writes: Interesting. Good research. Can I nick this and use it elsewhere?

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 25, 2007 2:08 PM

pedro de espana wrote...

AV.........there are some excellent scripts here on the subject matter, maybe a little weighted, but written with passion about the club, by people who care. OK it might be early to talk of relagation, however statistics are showing it is a distinct possibility.

The club really do need to know how we all feel, maybe they feel the same, but obviously cannot always wear their heart on their sleeve, I understand that.

I believe that support should now be forthcoming to the bloggers from the journalists of the Gazette, it is now time to GET OFF THE FENCE, it is your club also???????

**AV writes: Weighing up the situation carefully and objectively and setting the problems in historical and political context is not the same as "sitting on the fence."

Posted by: pedro de espana  | October 25, 2007 2:35 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

By all means AV - I'm sure you can use your good work to highlight this issue better than me.

Note: Spurs and Sunderland were also recently sold and Bolton have just appointed Megson who's english.

**AV writes: Ta.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 25, 2007 2:50 PM

tonymonaco wrote...

TB, i'm with you all the way. best post ive read so far. nice one mate. the only thing id have a go at you for is thinking that you could be able to change things from a blog.

these places are to interact and let off some steam and thats it. to think otherwise is stupid and only ever going to end up making you leave as you have done. no need mate. just chill out and enjoy your football with the rest of us.

do you really think that gibson or lamb or southgate actually ever read this or give a stuff for that matter?

av, although theres no chance of tbs post making into the gazette along with a few others in here that make similar excellent points, it would be interesting to see how gibson and co would respond to such an onslaught that does now seem to be taking a hold among some fans.

how would you think they would react?

tony monaco

**AV writes: The blog IS regularly read by people within the club - I get the odd stinging e-mail - although I can't imagine Gibbo has it on his favourites.

The club are a commercial operation that to a large extent depend on their public image so naturally do not like sustained criticism, even if it is widespread and represents the consensus. That is understandable.

In the past when things have got sticky - the upsurge of c opinion against Lennie Lawrence, Robbo and McClaren for example - and we have reflected that in our pages it has led to spells of frosty Cold War stand-off but it is in everybody's interests to avoid that kind of situation.

Posted by: tonymonaco  | October 25, 2007 2:57 PM

Mainy wrote...

Why the hell is southgate blaming Mido's lack of fitness on him not playing in preseason?

Sorry but what exactly is it they do all week then in training? Surley fitness work comes into it somewhere?

Can somebody please remove Steve McLarens 'How to deal with the press' & 'How to be a tactically naive manager' books from Southgates office, or at least bar Southgate from reading them!

Posted by: Mainy  | October 25, 2007 2:58 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Werdermouth

Here are some other factors to add to your well researched post.

There is also a British aspect to the situation. Whilst I am bothered about England the other teams from our Islands have had their representation reduced in the top flight.

Some clubs are worse than others and at the risk of alienating Gunners fans they also have an affiliation with a Belgian side who then cleared their club of Belgians and brought in players from Africa to groom them for selling on (Eboue and Toure are two that spring readily to mind). Arsenal play wonderful football but it is not much use to England fans.

When Beniitez went to Liverpool he stated he was going to clear the club of its local element.

Looking at the situation in Scotland it is interesting to note their rise in the world rankings with a young squad.

Several years ago the Scottish league made a ruling about having young Scottish players in the squads. That coupled to the bubble bursting in Scotland (reducing the number of foreign players) has brought about an increase in the player pool available, the number of players getting european experience and now an improvement in performance.

Sadly, I can not see it happening here.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 25, 2007 3:16 PM

alf wrote...

Werdermouth, I like your table.

It shows up a few things. You need foreign investor to compete and the lack of quality english managers out there.

We are all quick to mock managers like Big Sam and Redknapp but they seem to be the best english managers around

Posted by: alf  | October 25, 2007 3:25 PM

pedro de espana wrote...

AV, .my comments re sitting on the fence, were possibly not the best chosen words, and not aimed at anybody in particually, especially you. Sorry if offence was taken, is was not intended to be given.

However, the point is the gazette in my opinion, should be more vocal, in written terms to the problems

**AV writes: The club may take a different view.

Posted by: pedro de espana  | October 25, 2007 3:43 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

I do try not to bring the legal eagles down on you but Arsenals loan to the Belgian blub is in the public domain.

Still, if you cut it out there must be good reason, certainly dont want MFC editing the blog.

**AV writes: I am just being careful, especailly about things I don't have a good working knowledge of. You never know who's lawyer is doing a careful Google search

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 25, 2007 3:57 PM

graham wrote...

tony tony tony
you said it all my son but it has been a dictatorship for years not just this season.

17 years a season ticket holder gave up this season.you can`t do this, you can`t do that. no contact from the club after years of shelling out money for 5 season tickets the club don`t give a damn about supporters

Posted by: graham  | October 25, 2007 4:12 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Look on the bright side, those of us that do continue to suffer at the Riverside will not get stuck in the underpass after games. There's going to be very few of us there

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 25, 2007 4:26 PM

deka wrote...

Agree entirely with tony black,the whole club needs a shake-up,we are resting on one laurel which we won after 128 years of trying.

It should have been the start of a glorious new era after our uefa cup final appearance instead its started a downward spiral which is heading for championship obscurity. Wake up gibbo, smell the coffee,and if you can't ship up ship out!

There are plenty of teams building in the championship for a crack at the big league, if we go down we will take a long time to get back.

If watford get promoted and we go down will johnson want to come back? Seems he is enjoying his football down there.

I hope aidy bothroyd doesn't burn him out by playing him every game after all he's only a young lad y'know. He should be rested like gareths resting wheater
don't you think?

Posted by: deka  | October 25, 2007 4:37 PM

Werdermouth wrote...

Ian

I agree that the so-called top 4 are the worst offenders - most of their squad's english contingent are unknown youngsters probably destined for the championship. Even Man U seem to be moving away from English talent.

Without regulation the lowest common denominator will always win through over altruism - ie club versus country is not even a consideration.

Alf

It's almost getting to the point where if you want an English manager of england they'll end up being from the championship.

We’ll probably have a foreign england manager for the next 10 years – I think that new manager of Man City looks like he knows what he’s doing…

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 25, 2007 5:19 PM

Diablo Rojo (Costa de la Darlingtono) wrote...

Dont worry Boro fans.
After you have been taken apart on Saturday, I predict that you will get at least 2 more points before the New Year. After all two points is better than no points isn't it!

Posted by: Diablo Rojo (Costa de la Darlingtono)  | October 25, 2007 7:51 PM

allycat wrote...

get Martin Jol as manager. He has a point to prove now he has left spurs.

Posted by: allycat  | October 25, 2007 10:02 PM

HolgateEnder wrote...

i cant believe so may people want shot of gibbo just because of a bad run. talk about fickle and faint hearts. no wonder the ground is like a morgue on matchday with you lot fretting and plotting.

gibbo has worked a miracle. took a third division bankrupt club padlocked up and on the slab up to the prem, wembley, cardiff, eindhoven, world class players, new ground and europe wide reputation.

now after a few months of a downturn everyone is squealing like we have some kind of a right to be chasing champions league. when did we turn into real madrid? we are little boro and we've NEVER had it so good. i think some people have forgot the history.

no one is saying the club havent made mistakes or that gibbo is beyond criticism and i been on here before now myself slating them and him for this and that but owway, gibbo has made this club what it is and funded it with his own dosh, or his companys any road.

whatever the problems he is part of the solution. those who want him out may have good points to make and be sincere but they dont half come across as spoilt unrealistic ingrates. show some respect to the bloke.

Posted by: HolgateEnder  | October 25, 2007 11:56 PM

tonyblack wrote...

Holgate Ender.....

" i cant believe so may people want shot of gibbo just because of a bad run. talk about fickle and faint hearts. no wonder the ground is like a morgue on matchday with you lot fretting and plotting. "

Your understanding of the situation is that this is just a bad run, a bad run that can happen to anyone.

My view is that this is a bad run which comes as a direct result of bad management which comes as a direct result of bad choices by Steve Gibson.

If matchday is like a morgue then perhaps, just perhaps my view and the view of many in here is fast becoming the majority view.

How else do you explain this match day atmosphere ?

Champions League ? Real Madrid ? Where did that come from ? I don't recall anyone in here saying this or that this is what people expect.

We will have to disagree and I do honestly respect what you have to say, I just don't agree with any of it.

Mark my words, this team will NEVER go anywhere with GS, CC, and their backroom team at the helm.

Only a mad man or a man so utterly convinced of himself could have put two such incompetent, inexperienced, and charisma free people in charge, in my opinion.

As Gibson is not mad then in my opinion he's become incompetent, and unless he wakes up to that fact then he simply has to go, no matter how good he was or how many great things he did for the club and area as a whole.

In every walk of life people come to the end of their usefulness. Harsh as it sounds this fate awaits all of us at some point.

Gibson is no different.

Time will tell who's right.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | October 26, 2007 12:33 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

If you would indulge me a little longer I have one further point to make based on the latest news in this mornings press.

American sports tycoon, Stan Kroenke is busy positioning himself to succeed in ultimately taking over Arsenal by joining a pact to stop the Russian billionaire Alisher Usmanov from taking control.

Meanwhile, American billionaire Robert Kraft has admitted he is still interested in owning a Premier League club, preferably in London, and hopes a deal will be closed soon.

Most worrying, West Ham’s Icelandic chairman Eggert Magnusson believes a Premier League fixture should be held in the US - "It would be good for the game," he said.

I find this very worrying – how long before we will see 2 foreign-owned premier league teams, managed by foreigners with teams consisting of no English players, playing some of their games outside England.

You may think this is an extreme view but once a global brand has been established and it receives most of it’s income from an American-owned TV channel and global merchandising network it doesn’t really need it’s local fan-base.

The government needs to step in immediately put a stop to this erosion of our national game.

**AV writes: The fans need to step in and realise their game is being packaged up and sold to the highest bidder
and that an outsider arriving with a big pot of money is not acting as a white knight motivated by 'sporting glory' .

On this blog we regularly have Boro fans DEMANDING their own club is offered up to a foreign investor so we can compete with Man City, Aston Villa, Pompey and soon with Birmingham City too.

But that comes at a price. An investor wants a return and while much of that will come from TV cash some of it will also come through higher ticket prices, more cynical merchandising, more ruthless commercialisation, more money making friendlies in Dubai and Japan.

The integrity of the game as a distinct domestic cultural force with strong links to communities and with fans having an organic relatiosnhip is under threat.

That is the argument that needs to be won before we can think of pressurising the government to act. Right now all the pressure they are getting is from businessmen who see this trend as 'good for the game' and want to speed it up while fans seem ready to make a Faustian pact with any shady money launderer or third world despot who comes along if it means they can buy Jermaine Defoe.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 26, 2007 8:56 AM

John Powls wrote...

The MFC spin machine has reached a new low in giving Gate 'lines to take' before the ManUre game.

His 'putting a man on the moon' line equates to 'Well, anything's possible' - not a huge confidence builder and not even original since he was quoting himself from last season.

Could he not have had something about recognising the fix we're in, realistically but not in a defeatist way, and saying that, whatever, we won't be beaten for heart, effort, organisation and will to win and we want the team and the fans to come away with their heads held high and something to celebrate.

The nearest we got is 'we'll roll our sleeves up and go again'.

Ian said above that this is line in the sand time and it is.

Despite Gibbo's trigger finger being less itchy than some it cannot have escaped Gate's attention that 2 of the 3 currently below us have already shipped their managers and the third were never expecting anything more than 17th place at best.

**AV writes: It is certainly true that Southgate has questioned the veracity of the moon landing in press conferences before. In fact, I've got him down as a full on conspiracy theorist now with an extensive collection of JFK and 9/11 videos.

One thing's for sure, if Lee Dong Gook was the mystery gunman on the grassy knoll then Kennedy would have escaped unharmed. There is no magic bullet at Boro.

Posted by: John Powls  | October 26, 2007 9:05 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

HolgateEnder

The bad run goes back to Xmas 2004 where we ended the season with 20 points from 18 matches. The cup runs of the next season helped cover up the slipping league form with a couple of flirts with the relegation battle.

Last season we again flirted with the relegation battle (only six points from our last two games gave us a respectable finish) and now we are currently in a relegation battle.

It is not a few months of downturn it has been coming with all predictability of Christmas. Doesnt mean we cant turn it round but we need the football side of the club to up the ante. We could also do with MFC showing a more inclusive approach.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 26, 2007 9:22 AM

Werdermouth wrote...

AV, you're right that many fans of success starved clubs are welcoming these 'white knights' with open arms - Man City fans have never been happier with the all cash injected from a man who has been accused of mass murder in his own country.

People should also not be swayed by assurances today that the premier league will not allow games to take place abroad - or rather they said it was 'unfeasible under the current system' – but I guess not under a new system.

The premier league was formed by clubs who broke away from the football league in order to make more cash for themselves through a TV deal.

There is nothing to stop a mainly foreign-owned group of clubs relinquishing their premier league share and forming a new ‘premier league’ that allows games to be played abroad.

Only regulation will stop this.

Posted by: Werdermouth  | October 26, 2007 9:49 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Changing your manager doesnt always change your fortunes but can give a temporoary boost.

And that is a real problem for us, a temporary lift in form for Spurs and Bolton could see them leapfrog ourselves when we play play them. Or, if as we fear, we get beaten and the other two pick up points this weekend they could be pulling away from us.

As John reiterates above we need a spark, some fire in the belly.

In his predictions Lawro states he believes there are three worse teams than us. For all we laugh at him and other pundits many speak common sense even if it is tainted with bias.

The table doesnt lie and we could be bottom after the weekend. That would not be good for morale of fans, players or the club.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 26, 2007 9:58 AM

Never Happy wrote...

A few quotes GS can use

“Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor.”

“Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.”

“Success comes from knowing that you did your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming.”

GS should also be telling the players that despite the fact that the team are under performing the away end at Old Trafford is full.

Go out and give the supporters something to shout for.

Give 100%, try from the first minute to the last.

The travelling support deserve nothing less

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 26, 2007 10:29 AM

dave wrote...

We have always been pretty average in the premier league. Our form is usually somewhere between mid table and just above relegation. The only period where we have genuinely looks the part was pre xmas in the season where schwarzer saved at man city.

Fans are starting to see that we have been short changed in the league over the years and rarely have we really looks a comfortable top half side. No consistency

After the uefa cup was an ideal time to use the clubs profile at the time to attract a proven european manager. We could even have pointed at the new england manager was our last manager as a pulling point.

Sadly gibson got himself in a corner when he came out and said he wasn't looking at foreign managers. What choice was there in england? Maybe we should have gone for Big Sam at the time.

Southgate is a gamble unproven as a manager and coach. Would gibson appoint such a rookie to run Bulkhaul? I doubt it!

Posted by: dave  | October 26, 2007 10:32 AM

John Powls wrote...

The latest news on Mido in today's Geee-zeh-eeeh-eette makes our record on player fitness an even bigger sick (pun intended) joke than it already is.

This is not just luck and never was. The Gazette shouldn't collude with MFC and keep writing it off as such.

Posted by: John Powls  | October 26, 2007 12:19 PM

Never Happy wrote...

JP - it is down to luck, Mido's bad luck that he signed for a club with a medical staff equivalent to Dr Nick off the Simpsons.

"The knee bone's connected to the...something! The something's connected to the...red thing! The red thing's connected to my...wrist watch! Uh oh."

Posted by: Never Happy  | October 26, 2007 12:50 PM

mark j wrote...

If you have a light squad and in particular a striker shortage then when important players[strikers] get injured leaving no back up the result will always be the same.

no matter what the physio and manager and team mates say about how the returning player looks good in training THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS in everybody's mind including the players is the importance of him being ready for the big game on Saturday .

Therefore another injury waiting to happen as the player over compensates for the previous injury and the lack of replacements in the squad forcing him to rush his recovery and get injured once more.

Cant anybody see that even with our full complement of strikers we don't have enough options to change a game.

Gibson thought he would hold money back and be alright when experienced managers like Redknapp said when the summer transfer window opened that ' In this league if you stand still you go backwards!'

I will not be surprised if this striker injury theme continues.
I know its expensive to and difficult to keep 4 good strikers as they are not happy when they don't play .

I would be happy to see Nemeth or Macaronne on for us instead of an unfit, injured Mido and a weak Dong gook.
[That is the Macaronne before McClaren destroyed his confidence and ruinned his career]

Posted by: mark j  | October 26, 2007 12:59 PM

'Ignorant' of boroland wrote...

'Put a man on the moon'? We couldn't feed a bananna to a baboon!

4 quality strikers not in place for pre-season!
No replacement for Arca!
Sending Adam Johnson to improve Watford's Goal diff?
Not seeing Boat floundering!
No back 4 fit and playing together regularly!

No decent manager would allow a season to start like this and Southgate cant do anything as Gibbo is giving him a lifetime opportunity.

Buying Mido who has not played for spurs for Donkeys and play him straight away and expect no injuries shows how this club is being run.

My young son goes out to play football at a national venue , the only one wearing a boro kit and the other lads look at him like he's a joke.

Wake up Gibson its about pride remember. Oh by the way where is the rest of that Yak and TV money?

Some of the players and Southgate are trying to make a difference but are hampered by the club not going forward and holding onto money and hoping things will work out.
Not good enough Gibbo you have not given us a chance.

Posted by: 'Ignorant' of boroland  | October 26, 2007 1:29 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

As the chairman of MFI said: 'as one door shuts another drops off'.

I see Mido is injured and doubtful with a groin injury. So we will be playing a just returned to fitness Aliadiere who had a setback last week which means I can hear the twangs of hamstrings from here more than a day before the match.

Great! I suggest John Powls next article be titled 'a view from behind the Sofa'.

The good news is that we will probably get Mido fit in time for the African Nations Cup where he will star before picking up a niggle, a bit like Veruka I suppose. To be fair you cannot accuse him of not trying

I would suggest not taking any risks by playing Mido (if he recovers) or Aliadiere before Spurs and letting them get fully fit for that important game.

Problem is did I ever mention I dont have great faith in the fitness and medical regimes at MFC? Is it more dangerous to let loose our 'state of the art' facilities on these unsuspecting young men than play them partially fit.

Maybe we should let loose Dong Goal Less on an unsuspecting Old Trafford, Vidic would probably not sleep tonight at the prospect of being mauled by the lion king.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 26, 2007 1:32 PM

jc wrote...

I hear that Michael Moore is bringing out a new film - it's a scathing polemic on the Boro, apparently.

Posted by: jc  | October 26, 2007 5:55 PM

Neil (USA) wrote...

Well, Tony Black looks like he's being proven right so far (see his earlier posts on the future of Boro versus the future of clubs like Man City).

I hope the season doesn't bear out his predictions, but I'm less confident than I once was (I thought Man City would struggle this year).

On an unrelated point...I don't think that Boro's medical team is any better or worse than any other clubs. What is different is our depth.

Last year, I watched a Chelsea game where the commentator spoke about how tough it was for Chelsea because they had ELEVEN players missing.

As they took the field, I looked at their team. Every single player was an international. I never read anything in the papers about a lack of medical knowledge at Chelsea. If we're missing even two players, it seems to cause us problems.

I hope we can start getting points because I would love to see GS succeed.

Come on Boro!

Posted by: Neil (USA)  | October 26, 2007 6:24 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

The weekend is coming and we now look forward to the match. Forget all the frustrations over tactics, formations, injuries, players, the club. This what we look forward to, a game of football.

For all our comments we still love the Boro and all of us have the hope that we play well at ManU. A Boro side that comes out and makes a game of it, a side that gets in the opponents faces, that shows bottle and skill.

We dont want to be depressed or humiliated. We dont expect to win every week, we dont expect to win the league, a trophy every year, we dont expect to finish in the top six every season, we dont expect a wonderful performance every week.

We would like to go to work and say we gave it a go. Even if we lose that we did well but ManU had to dig deep.

So let us hope Gate and co do exactly what it says on the tin and rollup their sleeves and give it a go.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 26, 2007 8:02 PM

Old Bert (Western Club) wrote...

Footballers these days are bloody rubbish and in general they couldn't kick a hole in a wet Gazette!.

How people can pay their good money to watch a bunch of overpaid pansies is beyond me. As for getting yoursell upset after a defeat, give over, these modern day jessies just aren't worth it.

You never saw the likes of Wilf, George and Brian carrying on with all the shennanigans that these foreign johnnies do with all this falling over, rolling about and wearing those girly headbands.

Men like Stan Cullis and Jimmy Scoular will be turning in their graves at all the softies playing the game now.
The modern games bloody rubbish I tell you!

Posted by: Old Bert (Western Club)  | October 27, 2007 7:27 PM

lg wrote...

The club has become a victim of its own pre-season publicity & hype.

"We're the most successful club outside of the top 4!!"

This statement has been made so often the powers that be actually appear to believe it despite the fact that almost every season, if the old 2 points a win still existed, we'd struggle to get 38 points from 38 games!

M is for Middlesbrough & M is for mediocrity...............let's be honest!

This is our true history - go on the stadium tour and look at the photos of the numerous planks who've not just played for us, but have been permanent fixtures in the side.

I remember a line from a 60s song - "Things are the same today as they've always been." Does this seem familiar? It does when I look at several automatic first choices in our recent history. Our real achievement is just "being there". Let's make sure we stay there!!!

I am a genuine member of the Four Thousand, when every one in the Holgate End was on first name terms with each other! I fear more for our future now than in '86.

I see that the owner of the New England Patriots is looking to buy a Premiership club.....now there's a thought!

Posted by: lg  | October 27, 2007 8:37 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

A plucky performance, shame about Downings suicidal play though looking at the football Man U played I dont think the result would have been different. The crucial matches are coming up against Spurs and Bolton.

Below is an exert from BBC's Sunday gossip 'Gareth Southgate is running out of games to prove himself as Middlesbrough manager, and former Bradford and Wigan manager Paul Jewell is ready to step in. (People)'

As usual these reports should be viewed with some scepticism but often the first signs of something are little snippets coming out. I think he is safe for the moment because Gibson is loyal and will not make, in his eyes, a rash decision.

I am not looking forward to todays results and fear a bottom three place in tomorrows papers.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | October 28, 2007 9:10 AM

Phil ex Warrenby wrote...

Well said Old Bert,there are some very clever footballers going around today but I would have loved to have seen that ponce Ronaldo up against Jimmy Gordon or Nobby Stiles, he would have left the ground in tears.

I still half expect him to burst out crying when he loses the ball in a hard tackle.great feet but sadly a cheat and the refs dont seem to realise.

Oh for the five forwards three half backs two fullbacks days, maybe that i'm just old but the games were more entertaining and more evenly matched.

Posted by: Phil ex Warrenby  | October 28, 2007 9:53 AM

Diablo Rojo (Cost