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Villa Own Goal As Club Plan New Future

Posted by on April 14, 2007 11:22 PM | 

WELL, THERE goes another one thousand season ticket renewals chuntering away early through the underpass. Boro could have gone tenth - and above Newcastle - and set up a morale boosting last month of the season by beating Average Villa and Martin O'Neill, the man who could so easily have been the Riverside supremo last summer.

Instead the glaring weaknesses of the squad were exposed and ineffective tactical changes exploited in a second half slump that cost Boro more than just the points. The feel good factor from last week's demolition of Watford has gone, the Southgate honeymoon is over and the best we can hope for now is lurching towards safety aided by the ineptitude of the teams below. It is hardly the Great Leap Forward envisaged when the Dark Age of McClarenism ended.

The Villa defeat was a disaster. The terrace cognescenti will argue long and hard in the pubs and clubs of Teesside and on the message boards about the lasting political significance of Southgate defeat by O'Neill and their relative stock on the unofficial BossDaq index will be adjusted acordingly. The Boro boss gained ground with a shrewd second half change in the 1-1 draw at Villa Park and going into the game it was easy for loyalists to dismiss O'Neill as having failed to transform a far bigger club, but the way the Irishman took advantage of Southgate's flawed substititions saw the pendulum swing back and our man's shares taking a hit.

But that is just navel gazing for the soccerati. What is far more damaging is that thousands stomped away from the game angry, despondent and frustrated because it was a contest that appeared to have been thrown away. It was a golden opportunity squandered by a team who did not have the cutting edge to kill off a poor side, the quality on the bench to make significant positive changes nor, crucially, the desire or ambition to match that of the supporters.

Poor substitutions, some individuals simply not up to the job and a collapse in a game that Boro were dominating will have an impact on season ticket sales. After the Manchester City own goal plenty of waverers decided that if the team would not bother to turn up then neither would they next season and the Villa game would have nudged new layers towards their own big decision.

The renewal forms are in the pipeline and the new price structure are being discussed now - and it will take a mould-breaking move to stem to flow of deserters from the Red Book Army.

Boro have a respectable record at home this season. Of 17 games they have won nine, drawn three and lost five which gives a decent Riverside return of 30 points from a total tally of 39. From that we can see where the problem lies and it would be fair to assume that Boro's home crowd should be happy but in football, as the cliche goes, you are only as good as your last game. Supporters generally have a short term memory and many of the nine wins will have long ago blurred into other shapeless seasons and the more recent vivid, shocking, half-hearted displays against Manchester City and Villa will outweight them.

And if the truth is told many of those nine wins were not great games. The 2-1 win over Chelsea was a fantastic early fillip but Boro were torn apart in the first half and only a late flurry as the champions sat back swung the game. The 1-0 win over Newcastle was an insipid derby that could easily have gone the other way. The 1-0 win over West Ham was dull and tense, the 2-0 over a poor Charlton side laboured and flat.

Only the 5-1 demolition of Bolton has been an outstanding and entertaining display although the wins over Everton, Sheffield United and Reading were good, solid shows that only the most creative moaners could really complain about.

The problem the club have is they are in the midst of a post-Einhoven stagnation of the Boro spirit at a time when widespread opinion is that the game does not represent value for money. That feeling became endemic under McClaren's era of functional caution and while there have been encouraging signs this season under Southgate, results and performances have not been good enough to turn the tide of pessimism and resignation.

Now under pressure from other clubs slashing prices - and a tabloid campaign to drive down ticket costs - Boro must think very carefully about a structure that will retain Red Books yet leave them room to manoevere with on the day discounts to lure back those who walk away on a pick and choose basis.

The club have long had a policy against match-by-match discounts because they have invested so much in the Red Book sell out ideal. The chairman has gone on record as saying he is against slashing casual prices as it it "devalues the product" and so big incentives have been given to get the up front commitment of season tickets. The price structure has been weighted towards the eason ticket and that made perfect sense in the days of sell outs and waiting lists.

But charging higher prices for unsold stock makes no sense at all when the buzz has gone, season ticket sales are ebbing away every week and there is next to no no walk-up market. Asking those less committed to pay a tenner more is a massive disincentive to casual fans, helps push away permanently those who break the Red Book habit but who intended to 'pick and choose' , and moves the masses towards the orbit of pubs showing al-jazeera. The prices have reinforced the idea that football is moving beyond the reach of ordinary Teessiders.

The club need to bring down matchday prices without shattering the appeal of the Red Book. As on day prices have been so high they have some leeway on this but they are terrified that major cuts will undermine the appeal of the season ticket.

To counter that they must look at ways of making the Red Book more than just a financial relationship. They status of the book was tainted by the sour taste of the Eindhoven ticketing scramble too so the club need to repair the damage done there and push on the develop a whole new strategy to bolster the reasons fans buy into the idea of the club.

Boro must offer fans something more than just a match ticket or many will judge it on Man City and Villa. They need to go beyond that and completely renegotiate their relationship with the supporters. The Red Book should be tied into a vibrant membership scheme with real benefits and a structure that gives fans the chance to have an imput into how the club works.

Ideally that should include non-voting representation on the board and a real consultative role at every level of the clubs's community and commercial activities. Ideally that would be tied to a "Red Share" issue in which fans could take a symbolic stake in the club. Ideally it would mean wider co-operation with the Twe12th Man and other supporters' initiatives to help foster a new culture of fandom and an acknowledgement that some aspects of the new all seater environment are counter-productive and could be changed for the better.

There are whispers abroad of a new badge and a major 'rebranding' of the club. We must hope that rather than superficial tweaks and lip service to the role of the fans that the exercise can produce a new dynamic that can stem the slow ebbing away of support.

What do you think can do that? What must the club do to prevent crowds sliding and recharge the emotional batteries? Is it just down to price? Or is there a way to make the relationship warmer, closer and more dynamic?

Comments (81)

Ian Gill wrote...

Have we not been debating this topic for a years, some of the areas covered were problems apparent during our cup winning season.

If I had a fiver every time someone posted about rebuilding bridges, the quality of the product, sensible ticketing policies etc I would be as rich as AV. Nay, I would have a baby Bentley.

The more the club look at nettle grasping as someone elses province whilst other clubs do something then the disatisfaction will grow apace as people adopt the approach that the Boro dont come and see them when they are bad.

I had hoped the fact I couldnt get there yesterday might have eliminated the jinx I have this season but fair play to John Powls and Phil they managed to stand in admirably as the Boro appear determined to depress the fans.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 15, 2007 7:21 AM

tonyblack wrote...

Av, I'm afraid that this is what happens when you employ people who have no idea what the are doing and who are learning on the job as they go.

Gibson would NEVER have put a complete novice in charge of his Bulkhaul buiness that funds his club but he seems to love to do it with his club's management team.

You can't blame the players either.

The players may well be not up to it as you say in that they are not good enough for us, but like all employee's they need to be lead, they need to be motivated and they need to be inspired.

Who is going to do this at the Boro ?

Southgate ? Coops ? Do me a favour...

What kind of susbtitutions do these people make and it isn't the first time, is it ?

As a fan you try to be positive and you try to look at the longer term, rather than judging on what you see every week. We all hope that Southgate and Coops do learn and do get it right in the end.

But it shouldn't be like this, should it ?

How long must we suffer and have to endure this kind of rubbish just so that the people employed to change things learn and end up sorting it out ?

1, 2, 3 years ?

You can see it from the bloody moon that our guys are not fit enough, they are not sharp enough and they are not motivated enough. All things that come as a direct result of what goes on everyday on the training ground. You know my opinion on that so I won't go on any further about it.

Southgate said last week after the game...

" I can't explain that performance as I didn't see it coming.."

Well my friend, if you don't know, who bloody does ?

What a thing to say live on TV. Even if you do believe it then at least have the good sense to say something else that you prepared well in advance so that at least it makes you sound that you know what you are doing.

Yesterday he said...

" I learned a lot more about my players today... "

Really Gareth ? Well that's really great to know. We get beat 3-1 but at least you learned a lot more. Maybe you should think about doing your learning in the class room or on the training ground the 5 days before we play and perform like that yet again.

Never mind, I'm sure that Coops will share his pearls of wisdom with us all once again in his weekly TV slot on a Friday night. Perhaps his time would also be better served in filling the gaps in his footballing knowledge that are clearly missing.

Our recurring situation reminds me of that old Irish joke of a man who pulls up in his car and asks an Irish passer by for directions where he is told that if he were the driver he wouldn't start from here.

We're just a small town in Europe. Well no, actually we're not. We're a bloody big club with a terrfific stadium, an amazing training ground, a great chairman, and a club who pay MASSIVE wages and can compete with almost anyone.

Unfortunately we just have a small, defeatest town mentality.

A big club like ours need a big manager, with a big coaching staff and not ex players who haven't got a clue and who learn as they go.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | April 15, 2007 9:13 AM

John Powls wrote...

Vic, Ian and Tony

Agree with every word that all of you say and have said it myself many times before. But, unfortunately, again as we have said before - and as Ian says above there's no-one listening - and that includes Messrs. Gibson and Lamb.

Of course Gibbo has been a great Chairman. We all owe him a great deal and I want him to stay Chairman and eventually become Life President of a differently structured club when he feels he wants to pass on the reins.

But right now, he's part of the problem and needs to change what he's doing and how and instruct Mr. Lamb to do likewise or the downward spiral we're in now will only continue.

This is all the more poignant as, when The Ex left (an inspired bit of Gibbo business) and despite the disappointing no shows at Villa Park and Eindhoven and the systemic problems we all knew were lurking, there was a platform and an opportunity for the club and the team to make the next move forward.

Instead we have moved backwards or are 'going through a transition' as the euphemism has it.

At the end of the day, in those circumstances, as an individual one is left with very few alternatives - and most of them unpalatable.

The most unpalatable but the one that I have found myself considering seriously of late is to withdraw my custom until things change radically for the better. Why should I continue to pay big money to go to games where the team can't be bothered to turn up?

I know there are people who are more heroic than I am in what they give up to support the team and that the season ticket support is the bedrock - but if you can get to see the team most often, as I do, away from home then the victories are very few and far between and if the defeats are abject and gutless, as they often are, it is hard not to feel cheated.

Where was our season ticket book launcher yesterday when we needed him? It was the only part of the game yesterday that wasn't pretty total deja vu from last season's game against Villa.

I know Never Happy and Vic will get the maths books, if not the foam hands, out and say we'll stay up this season - well, only if 39 points is enough - in my view because that's all we're going to get.

2 more demoralising heavy defeats at Liverpool and ManUre this week, followed by Spurs - no longer a soft touch away from home - looking for UEFA qualification, Wigan away, scrapping for their future (unlike us) and Fulham who may be coming to the Riverside looking for 3 points to save themselves and send us down.

If the same gutless, unprofessional disgraces turn up for Boro for that game I know where my money would be.

And if, by any slim chance, we don't go down this season, staggering through only because there were 3 teams worse than us, and we don't invest heavily in radical changes in the squad, in the coaching team and in the way the club is run as a business then we're a cert for relegation next season.

Posted by: John Powls  | April 15, 2007 11:52 AM

A Bannatyne wrote...

A poor Villa side?? Just how much better than Villa do you think Boro are? They say the league doesn't lie, and even before the 3-1 scoreline there wasn't much between the two.

You booed last season after 4-0, you booed this season after 3-1. Don't you think you need to take off those red specs?
Villa are better than Boro, and even worse for Boro, Villa will be better next season. The kids that beat you yesterday will not be so childish next year.

Posted by: A Bannatyne  | April 15, 2007 12:13 PM

Udayan Mukherjee wrote...

Noone cares about O'neill any more Vic, Leave it out. Southgate needs time and needs to use this summer to bring in players. This season we simply have too much deadwood. Next season we can start to judge him.

Posted by: Udayan Mukherjee  | April 15, 2007 12:52 PM

george lancashire wrote...

Srely it is time for Mr Southgate to accept responsibility for the shambles that takes place on the pitch. Why on earth did he take Johnson off, and not Downing , who , has not been the player he was prior to his injury?

Also worring yesterday was Woodgate's performance, easily nut megged and rather slow on the day. Is he fit? Also Huth was very cumbersome again. Is he fit ? Christie seems to be a nice chap but will not cut it in the premiership so why did he start ahead of Lee?

I am sorry but Mr Southgate and his after match comments remind me of our late manager and that fills me with horror . Time for a change Mr Gibson

George, Linthorpe .

Posted by: george lancashire  | April 15, 2007 4:27 PM

bigdek wrote...

"Boro have a respectable record at home this season. Of 17 games they have won nine, drawn three and lost five which gives a decent Riverside return of 30 points from a total tally of 39"
We would be flying up the league if the FA oounted the point the same as yourself !

**AV writes: W9 = 27; D3 =3. 27+3 =30. I know maths isn't my strong suit but that works for me.

Posted by: bigdek  | April 15, 2007 6:30 PM

Si wrote...

George, I will try not to be such a pessimist. If you check out my most recent blog on my site, you'll see that I believe the problem can be summed up in one sentence - there's a really good team hidden in this bad/mediocre one that we've generally witnessed in action this season.

We can win at least three of our remaining games. The problem is, I'm not so sure we will.

Posted by: Si  | April 15, 2007 9:41 PM

John Stone wrote...

Spot on again AV.

We played reasonably well upto halftime,then concede a sloppy goal right on half time.

What possessed GS to substitute Johnson and Huth very early in the second half? Even the crowd booed this decision. Johnson was begining to run at people and create chances and had a couple of shots on goal. Huth needs matches to regain full fitness.

GS is not learning from his mistakes.

He needs help. We should appoint a Director of Football. I would suggest Terry Venables or Bruce Rioch. Venables probably wouldn't be interested but Rioch may. The brief should be to clear the deadwood out of the club, players and coachs etc.

I am fed up of certain players slagging off the club and the area etc. when they are quite happy to pick up £40,000 per week.

Disloyalty seems to be too easily tolerated at the Boro.

Its also obvious that some of our players fitness levels aren't up to scratch and we have some players who seem to pick and choose which games they want to play.

The D of F should also be asked to look at the young players. We now seem to have a number of them in the team,who seem to think they have made it but are actually very raw and not as good as they think they are.

The D of F also should deal with the contracts. It has reached almost farcical proportions when everthing is done,or not done at the last minute.

Now to us fans. For the first time ever I left before the final whistle at the Villa game.

I with about 4,000 other fans trudged up and then down Sheperdson Way. What struck me though
was the almost silence from the crowd. We were like a retreating army who's leaders had surrendered.

Just a week earlier the same people had been smiling and laughing, optimism was back but this is the Boro who seem to be the masters at building your hopes up and then slipping on the next banana skin, usually losing to a team down the bottom who haven't won for weeks but the Boro will always help a struggler out !

SG is going to have to think carefully about the pricing for next season .

I would suggest a 20% cut across the board for season ticket holders and matchday prices from £20 for adults and £5 for kids.

Well,we have rejoined the relegation dogfight this weekend and I have a horrible feeling it could go to the final match, which is Fulham. It could be us or them. I hope I am wrong.

The Premiership is where the Boro have to be and always should be priority, and the aim every season should be to finish in the top 8 which should give entry into the UEFA Cup, even if its through the Intertoto.

Well I have had my say. I am observing a period of mourning after the debacle which was the second half against Villa, but Liverpool next and you never know with our lot.

Come on Boro !

Ps. Can the Boo Boys, lay off Stewart Downing.This guy is a clever player and creates a lot of our chances and will get better.

Posted by: John Stone  | April 15, 2007 10:28 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - 30 points 51.

JP - I have never had and will never own a foam hand.

I try to look on the positive side but admit I did not find any on Saturday.

Was Woodgate playing in slippers?

Rochemback is useless.

Much needs to be done, Quinn has promised Keane money and more money to ensure Sunderland's progress.

Steve Gibson has been very quiet.

One very simple gift to season ticket holders would be to give them free tickets to all Riverside cup games.

It might not even cost the club a penny, but the gesture will have been made.

I agree with JP that without major investment Boro will be in another relegation battle next season.

I disagree with JP in that we will get no more points.

Dissapointingly the team can get results when they need them, then not turn up the next game.
This is a trait that needs to be eradicated.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 16, 2007 9:10 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

18 months ago we talked about the clear out that was needed of playing staff whatever happened to Mac Moses and that this was going to be a season of change. In the interim our 'strongest squad ever' has proved to be thin at best, many have left and more will follow.

Lets look at who we have brought in over that period: Rochemback - hasnt settled and needs to go, Huth - injury prone, £6m, a bit cumbersome but the jury is still out, Pogo - mad dog but looks to have settled as a centreback, Euell - nuff said, Arca - calamitous full back now a first choice centre mid, Woodie - on loan and likely to leave, Xavier - short term fill in who vears between good and a liability as he has throughout his career, Simba - too soon to judge.

Of the remaining squad Taylor, Downing, Yak, Cat, Morrison, Johnson look to have a Premiership future. Question marks against the likes of Davies and co. Parnaby and Viduka at the end of contracts and may well leave. Young kids coming through but unproven and that includes Tony mac after injury. Christie and Riggott forever injured

And Boat, a valiant battler who drives Boro forward when at his best but sadly lacking in basic skills to fall back on when not playing well or 110% fit.

There is much to be done over the close season but before we get there we need a few more points please.

And that is the problem for the club, the fans can see all these problems and the club has been pretty poor at engaging them. Almost a resigned indifference, a bit like all the chattering classes who know better than the proles.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 16, 2007 9:30 AM

Holgate Ender wrote...

even cutting prices wont make much difference. the mood is flat as a fart and has been all season. a hangover fron eindhoven. membership schemes and free cup tickets wont change that.

it is down to the players. if they cant be bothered why should we. they need to show they are bothered and get stuck in for the last few and win the games. they have to show people that it is worthwhile stumping up.

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | April 16, 2007 10:32 AM

Michael wrote...

I was another who left for the first time before the full time whistle on saturday.

I have been becoming increasingly dejected by Middlesbrough FC as we seem to be accepting mid table mediocricy. Since 1998 we have finished in the top half just twice.

Almost every year we fade away and at least 4 or 5 home games a season are disasterous.

Seeing players consistently on nights out even after pathetic displays such as Villa on Saturday adds to my woes. Their consideration for the public should come with the massive wages they earn.

The combined wages earned by the squad on Saturday would have been more than I will probably earn in my entire career.

The Riverside revolution is becoming a recession.

And I agree it's the men at the top who need to book their ideas up. Sir Steve Gibson has been terrific for this club and should have a statue outside the stadium. However, the club has made a few niggling mistakes that have annoyed the supporters in recent years and the mentality of club as a whole is becoming sluggish.

Something big needs to happen now, or it maybe too late...


Posted by: Michael  | April 16, 2007 12:10 PM

Never Happy wrote...

I f Xavier is considering where he will be playing next season then drop him from the squad. Plays Davies or Tony Mac at RB, atleast both of these will give 100%.

Holgate Ender is right about the Riverside atmosphere, even when we scored and were winning on Saturday it was like a morgue.

GS says in the Gazette that he does not have much influence from the touchline, taking off Johnson certainly has an influence on Saturday.

Why is GS worried that Johnson is not the best defensively, leave him on the half way line and let the opposition worry about him.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 16, 2007 12:55 PM

Nigel wrote...

I don't know where to start, loosing to Villa was a huge disapointment.

AV's logic of a decent return at home this season is fair enough, but we have lost to too many average/poor sides.
Not because the team isn't good enough but because it doesn't perform against average teams.

I believe there is little difference in technical ability betwen Bolton players ain 5th/6th place and those of Wigan, Boro etc. The difference is those at the top end seem to be able to motivate themselves consistently.

Maybe Boro's transfer policy is way off, Rockie doesn't want to be here, Euell never was going to be good enough, etc etc.

We need commited motivated players who perform consistently, I don't know who should go and who should stay, but I believe one of our biggest areas af weakness in centre midfield.

The Boat does not have the full range of attributes needed. We need a new dynamic powerful centre midfield player, a new right midfield and......who knows who else.

Since we went out of the FA cup the Boro have lost the will to compete and that is why we lost to City, West Ham and Villa.

I'm gutted at such a poor capitulation from professionals who are showing little pride in personal performances.

I agree with pretty much everything that has been posted, but what I do believe now is that there is no simple answer.

One or two new players won't make a huge difference, it needs more than that but I'm not sure what.

On a slightly different matter I agree that there is a need for Steve Gibson to 'listen' to the fans. He has been in charge for a long time and there is a danger he is loosing touch with t he fan base.

Whether that be through a fan on the board or some other forum doesn't matter but its an issue he needs to adress asap.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 16, 2007 1:48 PM

buffaloboro wrote...

Once again, I will state that the overall product is flawed. The issues at the Boro are connected to the way the Premiership has gone - predicatable, overpriced & disconnected from what it was.

Again, I believe things won't change because it favours the top clubs to keep it as it is - they get big pay outs for finishing high up , they are pretty much a cert' for Champ' League games & the cartel bandwagon rolls on.

Nor will they care about the smaller clubs , as the money is in the European action.

Look at the Cricket World Cup - local people priced out of watching - its all about the £ these days.

If I were back home I wouldn't get a season ticket. We are treated as 'consumers' so we need to act like 'consumers'.

ps once again, an excellent piece.

Posted by: buffaloboro  | April 16, 2007 2:34 PM

Sick & Tired wrote...

"Seeing players consistently on nights out even after pathetic displays such as Villa on Saturday adds to my woes. Their consideration for the public should come with the massive wages they earn."

Was out in Yarm on saturday night & there were a number of players out on the town as if they had a reason to celebrate. Nothing new, its the same every week.

After such a pathetic display the management should have went through them like a hot knife through butter, they should have been embarassed to be seen in public, hiding away after having their prima donna ego's torn apart, should have been watching replays of their embarassing non-performances until they cringed at the thought of seeing their own weakness so vividly exposed to the world.

Thats the problem though, they weren't. They dont give a stuff, dont have the right attitude & Gareth Southgate is not the man to change that. Lets be honest, he's as intimidating as a care bear & isn't going to give these guys the roasting they so desperately need.

Next season? Yet more of the same but I fear without Woody & possibly Viduka we wont scrape enough to survive. Not a hope in hell of the suits at the club managing to sign the players we need to fill the gaping holes in the team (or keep the ones we have that are worth keeping for that matter) & just as importantly we are still going to be left with a manager continually 'learning' (questionable since he makes the same mistakes over & over & over again) his trade.

What a depressing state the clubs been allowed to get into

**AV writes: Fans may want to see the losers look suitably embarrased and forced to wear sackcloth and ashes while they do their penance but the reality is that it is the end of their working week and they will have made arrangements to get spruced up and go out on the lash with their mates, just as working class lads do right across the country irrespective of income or occupation.

That may seem insensitive if they have lost but you can't stop it without damaging morale even further. Imagine your boss trying that one on you.

Posted by: Sick & Tired  | April 16, 2007 2:37 PM

James wrote...

The club are going to have to be proactive if the fall off in crowd numbers is not going to continue, but have they got the nouse to do anything about it?

My fear is not. Personally I cannot see anything more than a price freeze for next season, but hopefully more junior and student discounts will be made. But I feel there is more to the general malaise surrouding the football club and football in general than simply the extorinate ticket prices.

The club have got to realise that the plastic experience of the Riverside on matchday is also driving fans away. People simply are not enjoying coming to the Riverside and feel a better time is had in the clubs and pubs showing the game. It is great that we have move away from the troubles of the 70/80's and the facilities are incomparable, but we have gone too far the other way with the majority of grounds (esp ours) having as much atmopshere as deep space.

I feel we need some big measures, lets have a season ticket amnesty, create an "away" end where fans who want to create an away style atmosphere can congregate, allow fans in this section to beable to stand for prolonged periods.

Let's try and get some noise back in the Riverside and not just more boo's! Scrap pig bag for after goal celebrations, and just allow the crowd to eio-eio (or whatever) in celebration and bring back school halftime penalties, no more cringe worthy games to win a pack of card, please!

Posted by: James  | April 16, 2007 3:08 PM

Nigel wrote...

Sick & Tired makes a strong point but so does AV.

Banning players going 'out' is probably a breach of their human rights! Then again watching them underperform is probably a breach of ours!

GS says he knows what needs to change I hope that what he really means is that he can see who wants to play and who doesn't, and that he gets rid of those that don't.

We've got nothing to loose against Liverpool so the players might as well get stuck into them and play like their lives depend on it. Two or three points from the next two games and they will deserve their night out.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 16, 2007 3:13 PM

John York wrote...

Still hurting over Einhoven tickets (or lack of)' S patron holder, renewed only for the belief that SG would make the right decision on the new manager, unfortunately it appears to have backfired.

Poor lacklustre performances at home, away form abysmal in the cup and even worst in the Premier league. If I could meet SG & GS i would ask this ONE QUESTION: WHY should i renew my family of three red book holders?

Price reduction? Concessions on home cup matches? I don't think so. As for looking after fans...watch Sunderland in the close season......then watch Sunderland next season, they will easily finish above this shambles of coaching and big time charlies.

Think about it MFC ...Sunderland higher next season.

Posted by: John York  | April 16, 2007 3:19 PM

Never Happy wrote...

A bit belatedly I had a go on the predictor.

It came up with Boro finishing 10th on 46 points.

I want Boro to do well but I fear that if my prediction came true (they rarely do) it may in the clubs eyes, put a gloss on a mediocre season.

GS seems to say after every defeat that he is learning by the week. This however does not seem to be the case as the same errors, lack of spark, lack of energy and lack of effort continue on the pitch.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 16, 2007 3:25 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Buffaloboro.

Yes the big boys get big shares for finishing highly but at least in this country they share the TV money. In other parts of europe it is a free for all where the money only goes to the individual clubs. For all the faults of our system at least the Premiership is collective despite the EU trying to end the cartel.

We dont like the way money is shared out now but give some thought to the situation where each club negotiated its own TV money. The cake would be the same size but it would ALL go to the big clubs. In theory the EU wants to end restrictive practices, in reality it would be destitution for a good part of the Premiership, in essence those that are not a national brand. Teams like Bolton, Boro, Blackburn, Charlton, Wigan, Reading, Fulham, Sheff Utd, Watford would suffer a catastrophic downturn in income.

Some more redistribution wouldnt go amiss but the big clubs do care about the smaller ones (even if it is to protect the product) otherwise they would have cut and run to hide behind the EU's rulings.

**AV writes: I find it hard to believe that the big clubs do care for the smaller ones. Sadly the also rans are just making up the numbers, providing cannon fodder and acting as nursery clubs for the big boys whil eacting a s sales drivers for Sky Sport in the provinces that have yet to fall to the juggernaut of the big four.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 16, 2007 4:15 PM

Nelly wrote...

There is nothing the club can do to stop the red books dropping off except buy Juninho again. The match is boring now and it isn't fashion anymore. The new fans have drifted away. ST have been sliding for three years now and they only held up this year because so many were glad Mac was gone and decided to give Southgate a chance.

He's had his chance and it is the same Boro Mac had , frustrating, weak squad, no pace, no right side, and always losing to the bottom sides. The whole lot needs a clearout and it will take a stronger man that Southgate to do it.

**AV writes: Sadly, Juninho returning even as a £20,000 a week mascot may actually put more bums on seats.

Posted by: Nelly  | April 16, 2007 4:19 PM

Nigel wrote...

Never Happy - 10th with 46 points? The team in tenth has 42 already (Villa). Surely 46 points would put us 12th/13th?

If SG/GS and KL try to put a gloss on this season they are more deluded than I thought.

I do believe GS can see the reality of the situation, the question is can he do anything about it?

JP - an apology, back before the City match I argued and you strongly disagreed that fielding a weak side was the right thing to do. Results since have proved you right.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 16, 2007 4:20 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Nigel
I predicted the results and 46 points had us in 10th.

I think Villa and the Skunks were just behind with 45 points.

Probably wishful thinking but after saturday all that is left is those straws to clutch at.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 16, 2007 4:46 PM

Never Happy wrote...

When Arca got injured, he was 50/50 to play against West Ham, almost sure to play against Watford and then it seems back to square one.

Huth foot injury, just like Botengs last season dragged on and on. The medical staff at the club appear as hopeless as everyone else.

Douglas Barder was back on his feet quicker than Huth.

It seems the club could do with a shake up from top to bottom.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 16, 2007 4:53 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Nigel

A comment from the cricket commentary during the Sri Lanka vs Australia cricket match where Sri Lanka rested Murali and Vass. They thought it was dangerous and gave away momentum.

That is exactly what the debate was about before the Citeh match and it has come home to roost as a great big albatross around our necks. It was folly to even talk about it because the attitude created amongst the players was that the match didnt count and that has carried over to our league form. A landslide can start as a little pebble but by the time it has gathered momentum it is difficult to stop.

Never Happy, go back in and put all the home games between the teams near the bottom in as home wins, have us losing against ManU and Liverpool. What will we get at at home against a good Spurs side? And then we play Fulham at home in the last match. It will only take one fluke like West Ham at the Gunners to put the cat amongst the pigeons. It may be us against Lpool on Wednesday. I hope it isnt Charlton at Liverpool.

I think we could be safe with 39 points but I would not bet money on it

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 16, 2007 6:00 PM

alf wrote...

we all thought that after his dressing room antics last season that southgate was the players choice as the new manager, but are they responding to him?

Southgate has the benefit of the doubt this season and his appointment was always going to put us back a year or two. Next season will be a bit extra pressure on Southgate as everyone wants to see him starting to learn from his mistakes and he starts to build his own team after shipping out Steve Mac's deadwood.


Is a top half finish a realistic expectation next season?

Posted by: alf  | April 16, 2007 6:32 PM

dave wrote...

Well it looks like the english season hinges on 3 games between Man Utd and Chelsea.

The dominance of the top 4 is too strong and it will only get stronger and stronger as they have more money fromt he champions league and the premier league.

Top 4 will only get bigger crowds while the rest of the league will get smaller. how often have boro been on sky compared to the top 4.

Collectively all the Premier League chairmen are at fault and that includes Gibson as they all wanted the premier league in its current format. They all saw the pound signs.

What needs to be done is have the money evenly distributed among all the premier elague teams.

Its about time fans started boycotting skysports, how about everyone boycotting the fa cup final on tv?

Posted by: dave  | April 16, 2007 6:37 PM

alf wrote...

Do the players feel much when we get beat? Most of them live miles away from Boro and only come into the town when we are playign at home. Once they drive off in their £100k car back to Harrogate.. etc do they spare a moment for a boro defeat? Maybe after a defeat they should be forced to do a tour of all the pubs and clubs.

Posted by: alf  | April 16, 2007 6:40 PM

Kev B wrote...

That wasn't only the sound of clattering seats you heard, when Petrov fired Villa 3.1 in front on Saturday, and scores of Boro fans left for an early exit.

It was also a premonition of the sound of thousands of Boro fans tossing season ticket renewal forms into the dustbin when they arrive, filled with the usual promises of achievements to come and the hollow pursuit of a top six place. Graham Fordy and his merry men should hang their heads in shame if they play that card again.

For on Saturday we saw just what this present era Boro have become. A team devoid of talent, devoid of hope and inspiration, and a lack of spirit, determination and guts that leaves you longing for days of old.

Forget the excuse that it is just because it the end of the season. If it wasn't for the fact that there are a few teams worse off than Boro, we would be staring over the abyss.

Rookie manager Southgate has so much to do this summer, that if he doesn't get it right, and if the Boro publicity machine led by, Lord help us, Fordy and Lamb, don't get their pricing structure bang on, then we will be fighting for our lives next season.

Where's Gibbo in all this? I heard someone say would he have put such an inexperienced man in charge of his Bulkhaul empire. The answer is surely no.

I've nothing against the Gate, I love him and his spirit but his players are letting him down, and only very occasionally this season have they pulled out all the stops for him.

The false dawn of a hope of an FA Cup final appearance has masked to some fans just how awful it has been this season. Forget this silly talk of a transition period. What a load of tosh. Another myth created by Mr. Lamb and Fordy.

The truth is, only the change of manager is the transition. We brought in for the most part inferior players, and instead the whole club has suffered a hangover from the defeat in Eindhoven. It's hung like a black cloud the size of Teesside over everyone, and even some fans each week still say to me how much they miss the excitement of European football. Well lads, get out your DVD's because it may be some time before we witness it again.

Against Villa, who always win here, and now that O'Neill is in charge of them, they may always win here - he's never lost at The Riverside - Boro simply went to sleep from the restart of the second half so quickly that I suspected that Southgate had given them Horlicks during the half time interval. It was shocking.

Up front we had a contrast. The lumbering awkward figure of out of sorts Yakubu, and the embarrassing Christie. Malcolm Christie surely won't survive a summer clearout, but what about the Yak? Would you keep him? Would you shed a tear if he was sold?

We missed Viduka of course. But rumours of him clearing off because he hasn't been offered the three year deal he wants are ominous. Boro have played with fire before on players contracts..and lost. Surely Mr. Lamb can learn a lesson this time, but don't hold your breath, he hasn't learnt yet after all this time. We also missed Arca, and I never thought I would be saying that.

The problem Southgate will have is that it's perfectly possible that no one will want any of our outcasts, and we will be facing another summer of empty promises and a couple of panic buys in early August. Oh no, not another Euell please.

Next up, Liverpool and Man. Utd this week. We can only hope that the revival of nearly all the clubs at the bottom doesn't continue. We will escape the noose this year, but what a nervous summer we face, to see if we can raise some enthusiasm and get those all important red and white book holders back in the door.

Where is the inspiration going to come from this time Boro?

**AV writes: There's plenty to get our teeth into there.

I agree that Boro are suffering one almighty Eindhoven hangover. The departure of McClaren - announced unforgiveably by the FA four days before the UEFA Cup final and turned into a circus by the press - shamefully overshadowed what should have been an occasion for the fans and undermined the team's chances. I don't think the fans have had what American pyschobabblists call 'closure' on that yet.

I also think it is a very important summer. If Southgate doesn't get it right, and if the club don't back him fully, we face a long hard season of struggle hampered by flagging morale, falling crowds and even more moaning.

Whatever happened to the Riverside Revolution?

Posted by: Kev B  | April 16, 2007 8:49 PM

tonyblack wrote...

" Whatever happened to the Riverside Revolution? "

It ended when we employed a management team who are learning as they go AV and who have so much to learn.

1. Maccarone was here for nearly 5 long years and we let him go, for what ? For a Korean who after GS and Co. said he was so amazing was then deemed to be not strong enough and so now he spends his days eating spinach and watching Arnie's Pumping Iron video for tips.

Maccarone was a failure here for what we paid and for what we all expected of him. The reasons are not important as to why he underperformed. The fact of the matter was that he only had 6 months to go and so he should have been kept here as he could turn a game, lift the crowd, and score a few goals.

GS could then have let him depart and he would have a lot more time to find his successor over the summer instead rushing into a panic buy which for this season at least has proved to be shambolic.

2. Euell ????????????? Enough said about this one.

3. When players are seen out having a drink after you rightly say is their day off like the rest of us do is not in question.

But when athletes are getting drunk at all during the season it raises questions. An English cultural problem perhaps but one that needs to be stamped out by a Ferguson type manager who rules with an iron fist.

4. Yakubu. Put him under the same iron fist type manager like Ferguson who knows how to man manage players properly and you will find that the Yak is easily a 20 a season player.

In my honest opinion he looks fed up to the back teeth, has had enough of what he sees here and the way the club is operated behind the scenes and so he is thoroughly de motivated in the extreme.

Anyone with half an eye of football can see that he is a very high quality forward and if he does go i think we will all come to regret it.

If we see all the things that are wrong at the club, just as we all have done in here, then you can bet your life on it that the Yak and all the rest do so too.

We all have had dead beat jobs where we get fed up, bloody sick, are not motivated, think the boss is a clueless moran who we can't stand, and so we leave or get fired because we've had enough. Why should footballers be any different ? Money ? no chance.

5. " Super " Lee Cattermole ? Maybe one day in the future, but for now he is just average at the very best of times. Running around the pitch like a headless chicken and screaming your nuts off with uncontrolable passion that makes you rash and impetuous doesn't make you good in my book, but then I could be wrong. It just gives you a sracp book collection of yellow and red cards.

6. The right sided issue. How long has this been debated ? When are we ever going to sort this out ? Why the hell wasn't this the priority when we got rid of Maccarone ? Why the hell didn't we borrow on some of the fortune from the TV rights to sort it out in January instead of waiting ?

7. WHEN WILL WE EVER SACK KEITH BLOODY LAMB ? How long can this bloke survive in his job? How many players are out of contract and why ? Why haven't we sorted this out ? What does this do to team moral ?

8. When we will ever sort out the pricing policy and win back the fans ?

I could go on for hours.............

AV, I love you baby, as Kojak would say, but to suggest that this is some Eindhoven hangover is just s joke, sorry.

This is the result of a VERY badly run club, employing VERY poor quality staff throughout - all the way up to the management team, his coaching staff, Keith Lamb, and even possibly now Gibson himself who seems to be starting to lose the plot.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | April 17, 2007 8:36 AM

coggins wrote...

It's a bit rich of people to have a go at Gibson and Lamb when the area never gave its full backing even during the golden era from 2003.

The Boro will never have a sustained period of success unless Teesside backs its local team, not only in terms of numbers through the turnstiles but also through dispensing with the prevailing negative moan moan moan attitudes of too many ordinary supporters towards the team, the club and the world in general which is such a turn off. cheer up and have some ambition you miserable sour-faced gets: this club and the area has massive potential.

On top of that, Boro's malaise needs to be seen in terms of a wider growing boredom, which will hopefully lead to the meltdown of the oh so predictable 'soccer product' which has been engendered by selling out to corporate greed and the sanitisation and heavy-handed policing of the matchday experience.

Posted by: coggins  | April 17, 2007 9:06 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Ian - I only entered the results that I thought (maybe hope for?).

Kev B - excellent post

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 17, 2007 9:27 AM

Nigel wrote...

Coggins, you make a good point.

I think for Boro to make real progress requires more than a change of management/coaches/chief exec. or whatever else. It requires a change of culture from one of 'we will never win anything' to 'we're good enough to win....'.

The lack of self belief I believe is endemic in the club and supporters. Supporters moan constantly even when the team is doing well. Back in '97 I was sat at Wembley waiting for the League cup final to start and had some prat sat next to me moaning we had no chance of winning!

When I go to a match I constantly hear supporters slagging off players, the last occasion was duting the 4-1 demolition of Watford.

But I also believe there is a lack of self belief in the club itself, I don't think this goes as high as Steve Gibson, because his belief has driven the club to achieve what it has. We have achieved relative success in cup competitions but not in the Prem.

We are now at a point where the belief is we can achieve cup success now and then but not in the league. We need players who think differently, who believe in themselves.

Also in the past we have never managed to hang on to our star players and then add a couple more to improve the squad. Over the years stars have performed well then moved on, Juninho, Rav, Merson, Zeige, Zenden etc etc.

If (and its a big if) we can keep Viduka and most importantly Woodie then we have a chance of progressing providing we add maybe two quality midfield players.

To build a team which can constantly finish in the top eight will not happen next season, it can be done but Steve Gibson needs to be brave and give Southgate money to spend and hope he buys the players with the right attitude.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 17, 2007 9:57 AM

alf wrote...

why does everything have to go back to massimo? he wasnt good enough and had nearly 5 seasons to prove himself.lets hope we dont make the same mistake withe dong gook lee.

I think now all the PR stuff the club came back out with back in the mid 90's is now coming back to haunt them. The had us beleive that one day we might make the top 5 and as a result fans expectations were too high. Now the club is silent and happy to be plodding along just below mid table.

Has the club peaked and now the only way is downwards?

Posted by: alf  | April 17, 2007 10:58 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

The point I made was that the big clubs could have chosen to cut and run and hide behind the EU's wish for individual negotiations. Where would that leave us?

I stated the big four (and other clubs bigger than ours) want to protect the product and that is why they care about the smaller clubs.

You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the rulers of the game are no better with the FA having to sevice the costs of Wembley.

The arrangement is far from satisfactory but in the current climate do you want a free for all? We would certainly be one of the losers.

**AV writes: The big clubs fought the EU ruling at the time becuase they were not ready then to go for individual deals. Their own infrastructure was not in place and they would still be tied to Sky for broadcasting so were in no position to be taking on their long time paymasters.

Now things are different. There are now several players in the digital market plys internet broadcasts to be considered. It may be that next time the rights com eup the big clubs may ge tthe calculators out and decided thatit is time to cut the rest adrift.

The owners of Liverpool, Chelsea and Man United have no organic link with the English game nor do they feel any obligation to protect its integrity, history or culture. The moment the maths reaches a tipping point where they are better off alone they will shaft us.

Then they will be going to the EU and using anti-cartel laws to bludgeon their way to independence.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 17, 2007 11:01 AM

dave wrote...

coggins,
boro's crowds are good. if you look back at our post war attendances they are still pretty high. For a town our size and a club with no ambition to be more than a local club i think crowds are still pretty good.

Plus Middlesbrough isnt exactly an area full of people who have lots of money to spend. Then there are the fans who have left the area to seek work and find its too far and too expensive to nip back for a game.

Posted by: dave  | April 17, 2007 11:03 AM

coggins wrote...

Boro's crowds were not good in Europe, even when price cuts were introduced: the old maxims that apathetic low aspirational Teesssiders would rather watch it in the pub on the telly over a few pints (or support a 'big', ie glamour club) have held sway.

To suggest that the support catchment stops at an artifical political boundary is obviously wrong. The club that bears the town's name represents the whole of Teesside and its hinterland ie a reach of around 1/2 a million people. With no local rival. The club recognises this potential which is why they extended the ground and dallied with the idea of taking capacity to over 40,000.

Comparison with post-war crowds is also pointless because the demographic is much broader now and the club was never that successful or wealthy before.

Yes the area has suffered deprivation and population loss over the last 25 years or so but this is still relatively small and as elsehwere affluent areas have also sprung up eg Ingleby Barwick & Yarm.

My point is that unless people back the club to the hilt why should Gibson gamble its own future by throwing yet more silly money around and rightly so given what happened 20 years ago and what has happened at clubs like Leeds.

Posted by: coggins  | April 17, 2007 12:24 PM

tonyblack wrote...

" why does everything have to go back to massimo? he wasnt good enough.... "

Which is what I said mate...

He wasn't good enough - There, I have no problem saying that again.

HE. WAS. NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH.

Right, now that I have made that crystal clear for the millionth time, the point I was making was that after keeping him here for nearly 5 years, YES, WAY TOO LONG, there was no point getting rid of him in January and replacing him with Dong Lee who has since been deemed not strong enough and not up to it, after first being praised to the roof by GS.

At least with Maccarone he was a crowd pleasure, gave all he could, raised the crowd, and scored quite well coming on as a sub.

Something Lee hasn't done.

I went on to say that we should have waited until Maccarone's contract was up and then waited, looked around carefully at who was available and at who we could afford and then bought the finished product that we REALLY WERE AFTER, rather than panic buying someone who for this season at least was a total and utter waste of time.

If we wanted to speculate on someone we should have kept Maccarone on the bench and used him as " Super Sub " and instead of paying him off in a lump sum and forked out for Lee, we could have tried to solve our right sided problem which in my opinion would have been a far better and more considered gamble which would have yielded better results.

This is how I would have done it. It seems here that the club doesn't have a set long term plan that it sticks to and works towards, it just goes from one badly thought out idea to another until they stumble on a lucky one that works.

Lee hasn't worked for this season, and neither has Euell.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | April 17, 2007 12:26 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

Of course we will get shafted but it doesnt change the fact we could have been dumped earlier. We are in the current deal with collective bargaining, things may well change in the future just like ITV Digital going belly up. At the moment I would rather be in our current position than in the Championship or like some Italian clubs.

Doesnt mean I like it, doesnt mean I enjoy the big four monopolising things. Going back a few years it was the big six with Leeds and Toon as the other two so things have got worse, we really do need some of the bigger clubs to come alive.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 17, 2007 1:23 PM

red_rebel wrote...

Coggins:

I think Boro fans HAVE backed the team throughout the Riverside period, with hard cash and in numbers. Despite prices going up an average 7% a year for a decade (well ahead of average wage rises so a disproportionately large rise) and Teesside being one of the poorer areas in the country ST numbers are still 22,000 so they are only 5,000 below the peak number and that is against a downward trend in the game as a whole.

Despite that, and despite an undoubted period of unprecedented success, the negative mentality remains with a large number frustrated, alienated and unhappy about where the club is, or appears to be. Why is that?

I think it is because the club missed an historic opportunity to engage with the supporters back in 1995. The new stadium, a new demographic, new horizons, a new belief that anything was possible. That was a blank canvas and a chance to build a real relationship with supporters.

But it wasn't taken. The fans were kept at arms length, treated (and not very effectively) as customers rather than partners in the new era. They were never engaged in the whole "new Boro"| project. There was no dialogue, no structures, no shaping of an ideology that people could understand, buy into and be inspired by.

Now, because of that, the relationship is almost entirely seen as a finacial one. The club only contacts its core audience when it wants then to give them money - ST renewal time and the Christmas catalogue.

In return the customers have gradually started to judge the club as they would any other service: does the ticket office have good customer service practice? Is the shirt of sufficient quality? Do the stewards treat the customers with the same courtesy you would get at a theatre? Is the match good value for money as a family entertainment?

This relationship has been detremined by the way the club operates. The club is no longer a unity of team, board and fans but a retail operation divorced from the essence of its own product: sporting glory.

The club need to get back to that. Fans are crying out for it. A lot of the moans are about a return to the "old days" and people don't mean being stood on crumbling concrete behind fences. They mean the days when they felt engaged with the team and a part of the club, when the crowd was seen as a vital part of the matchday product.

If the club want to arrest the drift then they would do well to end this tendency to berate the fans for 'disloyalty' or 'fickleness' or 'failing to back the chairman'.

Instead they should be looking at ways to reinvigourate the club as a whole, get people engaged in the way the identity of the club is shaped and start to listen on the little things like the white band, goal music and the surly staff in the club shop.


Posted by: red_rebel  | April 17, 2007 2:07 PM

Andrew wrote...

The biggest problem for me is the complete lack of atmosphere at the ground.

My first season following the Boro was 1986 we were in the 3rd division, we'd just staved off bankruptcy & yet I loved going to the games.

The buzz of the Holgate was electric, compare that to the 'silence please' attitude of the riverside & you get an idea why the club has lost a generation of supporters who went to the games for more than just the result. Going to football was never just about the football, if it was there'd be only a handfull of clubs left in Britain with supporters.

Ayresome park was where I found the heart beat of Middlesbrough, it's where I knew I belonged & standing on the Holgate, chanting my clubs songs & eioing with a bunch of fellow Teessiders was the best part of football. It also gave me a great sense of pride & belonging in my town, I and many others really felt like the club was ours.

I'm sad to say I cannot bear to visit the riverside these days, the lack of atmosphere & passion annoys me, I feel embarrassed when all I can hear are the away supporters ridiculing my clubs fans, (the Riverside was recently voted the quietest in the premiership).

Get rid of the piped in music, get rid of the foam hands, dedicate a section of the ground specifically for people who want to sing & create an atmosphere, reduce the prices as a reward for the people willing to lose their voices for 3 days after every home game.

Mr Gibson needs to know this is a working class town, a passionate town & a hard edged town full of passionate, working class, hard edged people.

He's made the Riverside a place where the prawn sandwich brigade can go, the ones who only care about results who are fickle & will vote with their feet after one bad result but he has alienated a generation of passionate Teessiders who would of died for the club no matter what division it was in.

Posted by: Andrew  | April 17, 2007 3:00 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Some of the posts on this subject have been brilliant.

It is sad that no one from MFC appears to take any notice.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 17, 2007 3:36 PM

alf wrote...

"The biggest problem for me is the complete lack of atmosphere at the ground."

Everyone keeps saying that, perhaps if everyone who said that started making an effort to create an atmopshere then it wouldn't be a problem. Complaiining about the atmosphere but just sit there whinging about the atmopshere rather than joining in.

"My first season following the Boro was 1986 we were in the 3rd division, we'd just staved off bankruptcy & yet I loved going to the games."

Let me guess, you are now about 36 and loved going to the games in 1986 with your mates who were all single and just wanted to go to Boro games and get drunk on a night. Now you are older and most of your friends are married, have kids or living away so dont go to games anymore and you feel too old to join in with everyone else singing who are 16-21

Posted by: alf  | April 17, 2007 4:56 PM

Simon wrote...

All I can say is I have had enough!

Players not bothered, same old rubbish every end of season.

Southgate coming out with loads of rubbish about "character"

Crazy substitutions

And it costs a fortune!

I am on average wage and have a family. the whole thing is a rip off. I have supported the Boro for 20 years but really i have had about as much as i can take.

This time i mean it they can shove it

Posted by: Simon  | April 17, 2007 6:57 PM

John Stone wrote...

The solution to transforming the atmosphere,is to remove the seats from the North Stand and make it standing only. Entrance by season ticket or membership scheme.

This would freshen up the stadium, appeal to a new set of fans but retain 70% of the seating.

It would also increase the capacity to probably 40-42,000.


Posted by: John Stone  | April 17, 2007 7:03 PM

Pauline wrote...

I've read with interest all the comments posted above. I agree with the majority of posters.

I didn't realise at the time but 1997 was a golden era. We had the players, the majority of whom were interested in playing. Now we have the others. No ambition except to pick up the next pay-cheque.

Where are the players who aspire to "the Best Goal-Scorer, or "the Most Appearances"? Even in this "modern" time surely 20 goals a season is not too much to ask? Given the number of opportunities there are to earn those goals?

I love the Boro. When my family bought me my ticket for my birthday a few years ago, I cried because I was so happy to get it. It meant so much to me. I'd had to give up my seat because I couldn't afford to pay the price and look after my family too.

I've seen some fantastic games - vs Man U, Chelsea, Bolton, Villa, Liverpool. The vast mjority though have been a disappointment in League terms. Missed chances and wasted opportunities. We've had the players but not the manager. We've had the manager, but not the players.

The only consistent factor has been Steve Gibson. We owe a debt of thanks to SG who has given us a stadium to be proud of, a team which has won its first major trophy and also come to its first European Final.

We need to take stock and ask "what is it that we want?"
I want to see a team that gives everything, match after match. I hope when we see that it will also accompany a team which progresses in each competition that it enters.

However I've been watching long enough to know that the two don't necessarily accompany each other. To know that "we've tried" is all I really ask. The current gutless players I could well do without. They know who they are.

So, to next seasons' players here's wishing you lots of luck in your endeavours. I do mean endeavours, which is another way of saying "hard work".

Regards
Pauline

Posted by: Pauline  | April 17, 2007 10:47 PM

Nigel wrote...

Andrew I suspect Alf is right is he not?

Actually when we were in the third division I suspect a few of us were stood in the Holgate, where a few hundred sang and shouted, it sounded great if you were in it. Now if a few hundred sing and shout in the Riverside among a crowd two or three times bigger than the third division the effect is diluted.

Also football has changed Hillsbrough and Heysell saw to that. Its a different game with a different range of people attending. I too look back with a lot of happy memories to the third division season but I'd rather be where we are now, playing Man Utd. rather than Southend, no contest.

Never Happy if the club don't monitor the message boards, blogs etc. then they really are incompetent, I'm sure they get read but prehaps not acknowledged.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 18, 2007 10:06 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I see Warnock played a weakened side at Man U last night (unfair on Chelsea). Surely he does not have one eye on Saturdays game at Charlton?

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 18, 2007 10:15 AM

alf wrote...

The passion to whinge about the poor atmosphere seems to be greater than the passion to want to create a good atmosphere. If only the whingers would concentrate their efforts into creating a good atmosphere instead.

Posted by: alf  | April 18, 2007 10:30 AM

Never Happy wrote...

I have just read an article, part of which includes the following.

‘But, given the number of empty seats at the Riverside in recent seasons, chairman Steve Gibson and chief executive Keith Lamb are looking to be more prudent.

With a fee of around £7.5m required to keep Woodgate in his hometown when his loan deal from Real Madrid expires, there would be little else made available for Southgate unless players were moved out’.

If this is true, what are the club going to do with the 30+ million pounds they receive from Sky.

Add to this any prize money made from our PL finish of this season and next seasons ST sales, and 7.5 million pounds looks a woeful transfer kitty.

If GS is not given sufficient funds, then as others have posted, next season will be another spent fighting relegation.


**AV writes: This year's income from Sky won't be £30m - that will come at the end of next season. This year we are still just on silly money rather than insane money. This year it will be closer to £18m - and that doesn't even cover the wage bill, even after it has been trimmed.

Gate money is somewhere in the order of £8m-9m. That will cover the £6m fee for Woodgate and his signing on fee but probably not his first year's wages too.

Transfer cash has to come from other sources. Given Boro's structure that in effect means Gibbo and his need to balance the greater Bulkhaul finances. There isn't a bottomless pit of cash.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 18, 2007 11:45 AM

alf wrote...

Thats the problem with loan signings, you get them for free for a year then just to keep them and keep the squad the same you have to spend a few million.

That few millions disapears to the other club and the fans feel like we havent bought anyone in transfer market. fans will be expecting a couple of big signing on top of if we pay the money for woodgate or not.

Posted by: alf  | April 18, 2007 12:29 PM

dave wrote...

"If GS is not given sufficient funds, then as others have posted, next season will be another spent fighting relegation. "

Can't remember the last season where we have been in a relegation scrap, well not for seven years or so. Usually we are in a mid table scrap.

Posted by: dave  | April 18, 2007 12:30 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - fair enough.

Comment by Richard Scudamore about next seasons PL

"This deal really does take us on to another level. It means that the team at the top who got £30 million last year will get around £50 million while even those at the bottom will receive about £30 million."

Surely SG needs to look at the bigger picture and ensure that GS has enogh funds to ensure that Boro do not get relegated next season.

If he has not got the money to take Boro to the next step, then surely it is the right time to attempt to entice new inveastors into the club.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 18, 2007 12:31 PM

Nigel wrote...

The son is shining and I'm feeling optimistic, my prediction for tonight is: Liverpool 0 Boro 1.
Just off to the bookies again to get the bet on before reality sets in!

Posted by: Nigel  | April 18, 2007 1:14 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Dave
Do you not think we have been in a relegation battle this season? I have always posted that we will stay up, but we have at times being very close to the bottom 3.

Regards
Paul

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 18, 2007 2:55 PM

Rob05 wrote...

The manager isn't up to the job he is just a wet towel.....

I heard some guy called slim a while back on the legends,why dont the club give people like him a go at least he talks sense and not bo-ll-x like southgates crew.
Suffering but not in silence!

Posted by: Rob05  | April 18, 2007 3:11 PM

dave wrote...

"Do you not think we have been in a relegation battle this season? I have always posted that we will stay up, but we have at times being very close to the bottom 3."

Not that close really. Always a few teams below us and its only recently that the bottom teams have been 7 points behind us with us having a game in hand. Take into account the goal difference and the gap is 8 points which is 3 wins for 9 points or 2 wins and 2 draws. plus sheff utd have to play charlton coming up.

now if you add on the 8/9 points to boro's total then we would be up there near to 7th. 2 wins and we are 10th.

we havent been in a relegation battle for years!

Posted by: dave  | April 18, 2007 3:40 PM

John Powls wrote...

Vic and Never Happy

Can't the Gazette ask Gibbo and Count DracuLamb how much Club cash (if any - it may be entirely independently financed) that could be invested in the playing squad for next season is going instead towards the leisure development (hotel and golf course) at Hurworth?

Surely this is what Gate referred to recently when he said that he'd been given a figure for transfers by Gibbo and 'recognised that investment had to be made in facilities and infrastructure.'

And, as a follow up, what cash benefits and when is the Hurworth development planned to return to the club? Again, the answer may be none, if the development is financed separately.

If this isn't part of what Gate was told was 'cutting his cloth' perhaps Gibbo or Lamb could tell us what the 'facilities and infrastructure are' and how they benefit the paying customers of the football club.

Aren't these maters of legitimate interest to the Gazette back page readership?

**AV writes: It is of great interest. The problem is that the money is not strictly the club's at all so can't really be said to have been ear-marked for the squad.

It is money made available from elsewhere within the Bulkhaul company structure for capital investment and there may be 101 other pressing calls for it to be spent elsewhere before the squad that we don't know about. There is a new plant being built in Singapore for instance and there is an argument that the health of the wider business is paramount in any plans for Boro's future.

That is the down side of a single benefactor and a corporate structure that makes the club just one factor - and a small and loss-making factor - within a bigger picture. It would seem very churlish and ungrateful to most fans to demand Gibbo makes 'more' available.

Posted by: John Powls  | April 18, 2007 4:01 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Dave - OK, I'm convinced but I think JP will beg to differ.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 18, 2007 4:12 PM

alf wrote...

the playuers wage bill is around £28m which is about what it was in 1997 and been constant at that level ever since but revenue has over doubled in that time and will go up more.

So what the fans need to know is where is all this extra revenue disappearing to? I have heard that most of it is being pumped into things like building a golfcourse and hotel near the training ground.

Posted by: alf  | April 18, 2007 5:28 PM

Scott Duncan wrote...

First of all, Ive just sat here and read from top to bottom, so if my spelling is out a bit, its because my eyes are square!

I think judging GS in his first season after inheriting a poor, wafer thin squad from a poor manager is a little harsh. This time next year would be the time to judge. Give him the summer, see who he ships out and brings in, and then see how the "his" new side fair next season.

Much of the squad are, in my opinion, not good enough to play in the PL, never mind my beloved team. I dont normally single players out as I think it is a team game, but i'm going to make this my exception.

Xavier, Rochemback, Christie, Dong-Gook (maybe to early to tell, who knows), Morrison, Taylor, Euell, Davies.

Thats 8 players who i dont think should even be in the squad, never mind the team!!

Ive just read above somewhere that GS may not have the funds to bring in more players if Woody decides to stay and we have to pay Madrid all of the cash up front.

I may have a solution, although i could get a torrent of abuse here. I think we should cash in on Downing. I know he's a local hero; a local boy done good, but the reputed £14m that Spurs are willing to offer would be too good to turn down, in my opinion.

We have a readymade (better) replacement in Johnson to step into his vacant position and we would also have more in the coffers to strengthen other areas of the team.

Stewy has more bad games than good, goes missing in games too often, has a final delivery which is either on the money or in row z and wouldnt be in the England squad if Mac werent the manager.

With these aditional funds, we could do well, look at Big Sam at Bolton, he does amazingly well on a shoestring. I just hope GS is as shrewd with his signings....although i doubt it!

My first post, attack away!

**AV writes: Attack? It's not that kind of forum. Welcome aboard.

Posted by: Scott Duncan  | April 18, 2007 6:53 PM

dave wrote...

Surely if johnson was a better player than downign then he would be ahead of downing and probably be in the england squad. lets not get carried until johnson has proved himself and holding down a regular place

Posted by: dave  | April 18, 2007 9:20 PM

borolad32 wrote...

After tonights result at liverpool, boro have now only one twice in their last 14 games in all competitions. Frankly I think the villa result is just the tip of the iceberg.

Boro have been in decline for some months now. The new dawn of entertaining attacking football has not materialised, if anything we have gone backwards.

The team looks like it is lacking motivation, and I am afraid that has to come from the top. I said right from the out set that Southgate's appointment was a very poor decision.

It is painfull to watch the team I love so dearly exposed week in week out by teams with much less technical ability than we have on paper, by simply approaching the games with a high work rate and a never say die attitude.

Next years season ticket sales will be determined by supporters perception of what the team is likely to achieve and what players we can attract.

If the club cannot attract season ticket holders to renew, then what would attract any top player to play for a club in decline. If we fails as i suspect, to hold on to Vids and Woody, then we may well be waving goodbye to our premiership status.

Posted by: borolad32  | April 18, 2007 10:25 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Scott

Welcome, some will attack you, most wont because we are all Boro fans.

The point about Downing is well made. More crucially he may leave because many fans, right or wrong, have turned against him.

The problem we do have is realisable assets and the fact any who come here largely devalue. My son is of the view you may as well sell Downing and raise some money.

I have a different view in that we do with Downing is almost irrelevant to our future. In his early years with ManU the safest place to be when Giggs had the ball was in the penalty area but row Z was a designated danger zone. we have the problem of lack of pace and aggression in the box and no fizz in midfield.

Downing gets double marked because that stops Boro playing. If you then keep Viduka and Yak away from the area there is no chance of us scoring.

Johnson can jink all he likes he will have the same problem.

If AV is right about the money then we are struggling. If we sell Downing then Woodie and Viduka will leave. If we dont sell him we have little money other than for Veruka and Woodie. The really big money is 12 months away. The other issue is we still have a few players to move on which may mean more money to pay up contracts.

hard place and rock a - please rearrange.

Av will give a better view because of his knowledge.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 18, 2007 11:00 PM

dave wrote...

"The point about Downing is well made. More crucially he may leave because many fans, right or wrong, have turned against him."

Not really, him leaving would be more to do with playing for a bigger club and getting more money.

woodgate and viduka are going even if downing stays.

Makes me laugh that so many fans are bigging it up that we are in a crisis! we are are just in the same position as the last 6 years.only difference is we have n cup final to paper over any cracks

Posted by: dave  | April 19, 2007 12:02 AM

John Powls wrote...

Dave and Never Happy

You're right JP does disagree.

We're going to get yet another tonking at ManUre on Saturday and then, the way things are going with our general gutlessness at present, lose at home to Spurs and away to Wigan.

By then it will all depend on how Charlton, Fulham, Wigan and Sheff Utd have done in the meantime.

We could find ourselves in a final day showdown with Fulham - and I wouldn't back our team and Gate coming off the back of a run like that to beat Fulham and Sanchez in that sort of scrap.

Vic

Understand the financial picture you paint and this is one reason why the 'single benefactor' position has to change.

I wonder what the investment at Hurworth has to do with the health of Bulkhaul - but that's Gibbo's business.


Posted by: John Powls  | April 19, 2007 8:48 AM

Nigel wrote...

Scott, without Downing we'd be down this season already. Who provides the assists if he isn't playing? How many times has he been voted man of the match by the fans? A lot more than most of his team mates.

He's a class player, Johnson is raw and untried, its impossible to judge him and Downing because Johnson has played very little prem. matches.

Boro need to invest in at least two players of proven quality this Summer to progress. Prehaps spending £3 million on a windmill while being a laudable idea is not the best way to invest the clubs money?

The bottom line for me is that as has happened many times before to many clubs, we got knocked out of the FA cup and too many players have lost motivation and so we are loosing to teams we are perfectly capable of beating.

I did the BBC predictor again yesterday, put Boro down for three draws finishing on 42 points in 14th.

Its proving to be a miserable end to the season but not that surprising I guess.

Posted by: Nigel  | April 19, 2007 9:28 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Scott - 'Xavier, Rochemback, Christie, Dong-Gook (maybe to early to tell, who knows), Morrison, Taylor, Euell, Davies'.

I agree with all of your list bar Taylor.

We will see if Gook is any good after pre-season. You can also add Graham and Mendieta to those that need to go.

From your list only Davies and Morrison will have any sell on value.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 19, 2007 9:36 AM

Never Happy wrote...

JP - you may be right, however you did paint a similar scenario before Christmas and Boro managed to overcome Charlton, Sheff U, Bolton and Reading.

I think we can all agree that Watford and West Ham have bitten the dust.

We will probably lose to Man U but I still think we can take seven points from Spurs, Wigan and Fulham.

I do agree with you ref 'single benefactor'

SG has been probably the best thing to happen to MFC, but for his dream of a Riverside Revolution to be rekindled, additional backing is required.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 19, 2007 10:33 AM

Nigel wrote...

AV - I'm curious, you have referd on several occasions to the Gibson O'Neill Group. I did a little research and found some info saying Gibbo owns 75% of the group. Are you saying MFC is a subsidiary within that group and if so who owns the other 25%, and therefore by default the other 25% of Boro?

**AV writes: The other half of Bulkhaul is Mike O'Neill, the lifelong friend and partner of Gibson in the original Bulkhaul. The parent group has the complex and flexible corporate structure needed to operate successfully globally and across different spheres of commerce.

The club itself is wholly owned by a holding company that operates tthe football side. That in turn is owned by Gibson O'Neil which is the parent company of Bulkhaul and all its subsibdaries both here and abroad. It is all perfectly normal busines practice and allows a tax efficient structure which has benefited the club greatly.

It is unfeasibly that Gibbo could or would stump up £20m of his own money for transfers but it is possible and sometimes desirable that the finance is moved from one company to another in the shape of loans.

I asked our business editor to explain it once and was left with a headache. But it works for the greater good.


Posted by: Nigel  | April 19, 2007 11:52 AM

tonyblack wrote...

My views about the situation at MFC have been well documented here and on the FMTTM website, especially my desire to see big changes behind the scenes with regards coaching and training methodology.

It hasn't been a good season at all, a pretty dire one at that, but we just have to hope and have faith that GS sees all that we see and that he has prepared well for this in the off season ready for a fresh start.

GS, Coops and the all the rest of the crew would never have been my choice but they are here now and we will just have to see what they come up with. It's very disappointing at the moment but then we all knew that a rookie set up like this would take time so now we must just sit and wait it out.

We gave bloody McClaren plenty of time and so now that GS and Co are here we will have to extend them the same timespan.

It isn't the time to call for their heads and I don't think it will be until we get about 10 games into the next season.

We still aren't safe and so we still must give them 100% support for now at the remaining games so that they get this most important of jobs done as it's far from over.

Then we will what changes they make and then see how it all pans out.

TB.

Posted by: tonyblack  | April 19, 2007 1:50 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Dave

Here is another big laugh, 104 points from 90 games. That is two and a half seasons of drift and Gate copped the driftwood.

It is the sort of thing that has done for many a team. Keep having blips and eventually you will get caught up at the wrong time. In autumn 2005 we posted about the pending crisis of rebuilding the squad, we have started but there is much that needs doing and no doubt Gate is doing his best.

I too think Veruka and Woodie are more likely to move than stay, so dont take one quote about Downing out of context. If he did leave before they had made their decisons it certainly wouldnt be seen as a plus in the decision making process. In the same way if they leave it may prompt movement on players like Downing.

I dont think we will go down but until we have the points anything is possible. The trip to ManU will be interesting because Fergie is already accusing us of paranoia about Ronaldover again. They will be looking to give us an extra special welcome. Lets hope we go there and are positive because they are more fluid than the scousers.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | April 19, 2007 1:53 PM

alf wrote...

Its time downing was dropped away from home as he is very poor away from the riverside. Lets give johnson a go. Unless downing is undropable

Posted by: alf  | April 19, 2007 2:14 PM

dave wrote...

I would be very surpised if gibson uses his own personal wealth to invest in boro. Most of it wil be loans and money from the parent company. Thats not meant to be a bad word against Gibson.

Good business men never chuck their own personal money into a investment. Dont forget Gibson bought boro when football was very cheap and his investment has probably gone up 10 fold.

**AV writes: Has it gone up ten fold? What is Boro worth to a foreign investor? And what has Gibson put in?

Posted by: dave  | April 19, 2007 2:18 PM

dave wrote...

Initial investement back in 1996 about 200k, then bought out mr envelopes and then ici..etc lets be generous and round it up to £3m. In total. Ayresome Park sold for £2M, new stadium land bought for £1, EU grant for £6M football trust grant for £4m..£2-4M loan and then rest from sale of ayresome park..now the club is worth about £60m+ if you include the training ground and future development of golfcourse and hotel complex. now with the extra TV money he can start running the club at a profit.

Posted by: dave  | April 19, 2007 3:13 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Alf - As downing is recognised by the opposition as Boro's only link to the forwards he is nearly always double marked.

A better solution would be to play Downong and Johnson, this would hopefully provide us with two attacking outlets that can supply the strikers.

Posted by: Never Happy  | April 19, 2007 3:28 PM

alf wrote...

neverhappy, when a club becomes too reliant on one player for creativity it is never good for a clubs progress. look at everton..rooney left for £30m but once he left it gave other players a chance to shine and they are doing aswell without him.

Posted by: alf  | April 19, 2007 4:52 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

I think the problem is deeper, because we lack pace in central midfield, right side and up front the wide men (whoever they are) will be on a hiding to nothing but even there they wont get across the centre backs or head goals.

Yes, Downing is double marked, but we dont play enough around the oppositions area. We are not in the same class but look at the sheer pace in teams like ManU, Arsenal and Chelsea. For that matter look at Everton, Spurs, Bolton and Blackburn. They all move the ball