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Cup Game Flags Up Mixed Messages On Downing

Posted by on March 11, 2007 10:45 PM | 

THE TWE12th Man unfurled a new pre-match visual device in the North Stand with a pair of eight foot square flags in the club's traditional home and away colours - for any club marketing men not aware, that's that's red with a white band and blue and black stripes - furiously waved in impressive patterns by steely biceped Boro boys. My semaphore is a bit rusty but I thought I made out the phrases "miserable red-faced whinger", "dirty, cheating, diving nancy boy" and "ugly spud-faced granny botherer". The link with the sea cadets is really paying dividends.

The critics who say the Twe12th Man is out of step with the Boro consensus must be right. If they had truly caught the mood of the night they would not trying to intimidate the opposition players or rousing fierce local pride. If they were really picking up the vibe from 'the Boro street' the flags would be angrily spelling out: "Downing you useless fanny."

Stuart Parnaby will be relieved, we have a new boo-boy target: the man whose crosses created both goals. The local lad made good who over the past two seasons has been Boro's assist king. The creative force who single-handedly salvaged the UEFA Cup dream with a string of pinpoint crosses against both Basel and Bucharest that engineered an historical orgasm.
The bloke who barely a month ago ripped apart Bolton and took centre-stage in Boro's most convincing display of the season. Yes, its official: Stewart Downing is rubbish!


There was a lot of hostility in the Riverside. Man U were booed from the off with Ronaldo's every touch in the opening half hour bring ear-bleeding peaks of audio bile. The loudest cheers of the night came as first Lee Clattermole then Julio Arca wiped out our dark spring loaded Nemisis to huge public approval. No doubt viewers across the land cheered too.

Rob Styles got some stick too, especially late on. His pivotal penalty award against Boateng was probably right, the acid test is whether you would be screaming "stonewall" at the other end and I think I would. But what was just a dodgy decision was given a sinister edge big club bias and multiplied into a gross injustice when he failed to give an equally compelling call against Vidic. After that a string of decisions went against Boro and a head of righteous anger built up with the crowd taunting the ref with some old school serenading: "the referee's a w*****", "you're not fit to referee" and "cheat, cheat, cheat" - all chants calculated to ensure every decision from then on went resolutely the other way.

So we clearly have our villains, the focus of our hate and our excuses: Ronaldo and Styles. But no! The vindictive Chicken Run faction shuffling heel-to-toe in the underpass had chosen a different scapegoat: Stewart Downing. He's crap apparently. He can't cross. He doesn't track back. He won't skin his full-back. And until he charges back 80 yards to break his leg in a reckless 60/40 challenge he will remain a lily-livered waster and we should get shot.

Unable to escape the half-cut kangeroo court in the jam as we waited for the 7.25 to Redcar to trundle past I stuck my neb in with what I though was compelling mitigation. "But his crosses set up both goals." They pair of them looked at me as if I was stupid. Finally one slapped me down with the retort: "Aye, but that's all he did do." "Setting up two goals against the best team in the country to keep us in it isn't enough?" I asked. "Wouldn't you take that every week?"

"But he doesn't look interested. His body language is all wrong. He's not getting at teams. He doesn't beat his man. The crosses came from dead balls. He can't do it in open play. He needs some fire in his belly like young Cattermole." So there you go Stewy; forget that knuckling down and waiting for the two or three chances in a game to float in a perfect cross. If you want the fans on board you need to go rushing 20 yards out of position to make an unneccessary crunching tackle, preferably leaving a big gap behind you for the opposition to come steaming through if you don't take the ball. Boro is a tough audience.

It is possibly true to say that Downing didn't have a great first half - but who did? There was a 20 minute spell where Boro were being torn apart and the team wobbled as a whole. The defence were being dragged all over and even the normally imperious Woodgate was backing off and in two minds over the first goal. But they were not getting the protection they needed from midfield - George Boateng in particular was exposed by United's pace - while the forwards were not holding the ball up when they got it to buy time to reorganise. The ball was being squandered cheaply with Andrew Taylor, Cattermole and Yakubu probably the biggest villains. If you wanted an excuse to slag off the irrational scapegoat of your choice it was easy. Downing did little with the ball - but for long spells he did not see it because the team as a whole were being battered.

But suddenly Boro were back in it as a teasing Downing cross was spilled and scrambled away then nodded back in by Arca for Cattermole to cushion superbly witha sublime first touch then crack home on the turn for the leveller just before the break. Then almost immediately after the restart a well crafted Downing corner curled over the crowd to the back stick where Boateng arrived unmark to stoop and head Boro ahead. There's three people it would be oh so easy to slag off turning the game in the space of a few minutes. But don't let that stop you booing.

Supporters claim they pledge their loyalty to the shirt unconditionally. If only that were true. Sometimes I despair that so many can not see the special, distinct and rare qualities of each of the players wearing it and their different contribution to the team. To berate Downing for not defending is as ridiculous as calling for Woodgate to be dropped because he doesn't dribble forward, beat his man or score enough goals. Or suggesting Viduka be pedalled because his marking defending corners is woeful and his tackling weak.

What is important is to recognise that the team - not individuals - did not preform well in the first half. But that they did in the second when they showed that with the right attitude, organisation and motivation they can take the game to even the best of sides. Boro are still in the FA Cup, the Wembley dream is still alive and there are growing reasons to be optimistic for the future under Gareth Southgate. The players that have played their part in that deserve praise. All of them. We should save our hostile energy for the opposition and for referees.


Comments (58)

John Powls wrote...

Vic

Absolutely right - every word.

Maybe the anti-Downing brigade would be happy if (and maybe it's when, if he gets sufficiently ticked off) he was providing the same level of service for Spurs or, in time, as Giggs replacement at ManUre.

Without his input this season we'd be below where Watford are now. And he manages this when usually double marked by every opposing team who know better than the chicken-runners where all our supply comes from and when his route up the wing is often choked by not only those two but The Yak and his marker too.

Sometimes one begins to despair of what some of our fellow 'supporters' see in a game.

Posted by: John Powls  | March 12, 2007 8:32 AM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - All players will have good and bad games, Downing gets extra 'stick' because he is a local lad.

I for one would much rather see him playing higher up the pitch. MaClaren used him as an additional left back, this is why he struggles for England.

I had a similar argument to yours in the pub after the game. No matter what I said, I was shouted down and told that Downing was 'crap'.

Still as you said, we are still in the cup and have nothing to fear at Old Trafford.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 12, 2007 9:38 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

AV

In another place a poster was complaining about it becoming a goalkeeping forum, I advised him to be patient because another scapegoat was just around the corner.

There is no doubt Downing is at his best when the midfield is balanced, it gives him a little bit of space to operate.

There is no doubt that he will not be a battler like Catermole but he does track back and do his best.

There is no doubt he would be better suited to a fox in the box to attack his delivery. It is ironic that the three main weapons we have are to some extent not suited to each other. Viduka wants the ball in to his feet so he can turn or slip balls through. Yak is at his best with ball at his feet running at centre backs or with the ball played over their shoulders for him to tussle with.

It isnt perfect but the results speak for themselves whatever the chicken runners say. The problems dont lie just at Downing's feet but elsewhere as well.

We have posted long and hard about the right side and central midfield. Arca has been a revelation, Boat is a mixed blessing, Morrison needs a run of matches, Cat is young yet but seems to be the obvious Boat replacement and right back is tricky - everyone pins too much on young Tony Mc.

But dont confuse us with the facts.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 12, 2007 10:16 AM

Nigel wrote...

I despair of the so called fans who get on a class players back and accuse him of 'not defending' not being commited. They are the ones that should be commited!

Years ago the chicken run used to abuse David Armstrong who was a classy player, the abuse got so bad he left.

Are these people so lacking in self belief they are abusing Stewie ahead of the day when maybe he leaves to play for a 'bigger' club?

He's an excellent footballer who thrives on confidence we should cheer his every touch. To say he is only good at crossing and dead balls shows a complete lack of understanding. David Beckam was only any good at crosses and dead balls, so much so that he was a pivotal part of a Champions League winning side.

We used to moan when Boro were too defensive under Mac, now Stewie is told to be more positive and doesn't track back so much he's accused of not trying! God help us!!

I for one thought the Man Utd game was excellent, we managed to hang on when getting ripped apart and came back fighting, took our opportunities (created by Stewie) and took the game to the best team in England (and maybe Europe).

Posted by: Nigel  | March 12, 2007 10:43 AM

dave wrote...

downings currently struggling to find that consistency to become a truly great players.

At the moment he is where Shaun wright philips was before goign to chelsea. He needs get some consistency. Especially away from home. He can make the England left midfield his own if he can take it to another level.

Even if he is playing bad he needs to learn to work hard, with back tracking and tackling back and helping out the left back. He needs to look at giggs and now ronaldo is finding that consistency..thats what he needs to aim for to push on. other wise he wil just end up another SWP, damion Duff, Andy sinton..etc

Posted by: dave  | March 12, 2007 11:40 AM

Nigel wrote...

Dave - no pressure then? I would suggest that what he 'needs' to do is to continue being the creative outlet for the attacking element of the team.

The concept of Ronaldo 'tracking back' is an amusing one. Stewie clearly does that when instructed ie the last England game. Prehaps his instruction from GS is to stay up field so he is an outlet when required?

Posted by: Nigel  | March 12, 2007 12:28 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Dave

Downing struggles for England because there is absolutely no point in delivering a cross into the box. Crouch is poor in the air and is too slow to get infront of the defender.

MacClaren would give his last dollar if he could put a fit effective striker on the park. Someone like Andy Johnson would gobble up the service Downing can provide.

There is also the point he has a way to go yet. We tend to compare him to Ryan Giggs but when the Welsh Wizard was Stewies age the safest place as a spectator was in the six yard box, the chances of you getting by the ball were higher in row Z. Ronaldo is a brilliant player and Stewie may never reach those levels.

He certainly contributes more already than the players you mention. But he is what he is, if people dont like it he may as well leave then the chicken runners can call him a traitor and be truly happy. That would be a great incentive for the like of Woodie and Veruka to stay, they too could become traitors. And Gibson and Lamb can clear off as well. And that Southgate, Parnaby, Swarzer, etc. etc.

I am not talking about you Dave but as my father used to say 'you can't educate Pork'.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 12, 2007 12:43 PM

Never Happy wrote...

Ian - the southern press need a scapegoat and if Downing plays he fits the bill nicely.

If they get wind of the Boro fans getting on Downing back, it will be justifcation in their eyes for leaving him out of the England squad.

Against Macedonia at Old Trafford I thought Downing was actually one of England's better performers, certainly better than a Lazy Lampard or Gerrard doing his headless chicken impersonation.

Why does Gerrard get praise for being all over the pitch, when he is selected as a right sided midfield player?

About the only place you do not see him is on the right side of the pitch. In my eyes this shows a total lack of discipline.

Dave - Chris Snode, sorry Ronaldho may be great going forward but does little to aid Man U defensively.

As I said in an earlier posting, I would much rather have Downing playing higher up the pitch, giving the RB plenty to worry about, than have him in the LB position inviting the oppo's RB into our box.

As John posted, those who slag off Downing need to think where Boro would be in the table without him.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 12, 2007 1:16 PM

tonyblack wrote...

AV,

I go to watch football when I can afford it, end of story.
I go to watch us hopefully win, but I also go to watch the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney and Co.

I don't care that they are from an opposing team as for me it's all about football and having the good fortune to be able to watch the " Beautiful Game " in full force.

I boo at the cheats but that's it. I ear bash the ref when I think he's got it wrong as it's all part of the fun, but I do so in the right way and by using the right language.

As for Downing.... you guys in the media have to take your fair share of the blame here. Bernie has hyped this guy up all the way and he has done so in such a biased " Home Grown Lad " way that it makes you want to vomit.

I fully understand that it is great to see local lads getting their shot at playing for their home team. But at the end of the day what matters is having the very best people possible in every position, " Home Grown Lads " or not.

Rocky, Maccarone, Zenden and co have all come under fire when they did not perfrom and were endlessly accused by Slaven, Brownlee and co that they were only here for the money, like mercernarys.

At no point did the club defend any of these players in the Gazette, Northern Echo, or on the 3 " Legends " radio show. Why not ? It's one rule for the " Home Grown Lads " and it's one rule for johnny foreigner at this club, AND IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

Recently it was Xavier who came under fire and straight away the financial accusation came flooding out without people actually going to speak to him before speaking out.

You may say that this is in fact right. But AV, Bernie " The Legend " Slaven says that it is only right that Woody goes where he can get the highest amount of cash.

I note that no one talks bad of Woody.

I am half Italiam and so I know only too well what it is like to be under the spot light.

When Maccarone left with his parting shot I can fully understand why it didn't go down well here, true or not. But on the radio Bernie accused Italians of all being " Lazy Moaners ". This isn't nice to hear.

So let's start by making it an equal playing field from now on.....

TB


**AV writes: The local media are not an organic lump of likeminded parochial racists and any suggestion we are is lunacy. Not to mention libellous.

To accuse Ali Brownlee of attacking Boro players in any shape or form is plain wrong, wrong, wrong and it suggests you are not familiar with his work at all.

To say that the media have not supported various players because they are foreign is nonsense. I always supported Zenden publicly and vocally for instance. But not Rochemback, and that's not because of the passport he holds but because he is not up to the job. That is how it works for me, objective judgements based on ability.

To say that Johnny Foreigner is not welcome at the club is ridiculous. How do you explain the Juninho worship? What about the popular clamour for Yak, Viduka, Pogotetz and Arca this season or past adulation of Festa, Hasselbaink or Queudrue? Your theory doesn't hold water at all.

I can only speak for myself. The issues you have with Bernie Slaven - and there appear to a lot of them bubbling just under the surface - you will have to take up with him.

Posted by: tonyblack  | March 12, 2007 1:24 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Never Happy

I thought he was going to get the blame for the Croatia match as well as Macedonia on the basis he didnt do enough in that match so had to be dropped and sit in the stands.

As Phil Macnulty hinted at the time Downing was a stick to beat MacClaren with, it was just convenient to ignore the fact we had five chances and four were made by Downing. Gerrard once even blocked off Cole and Downing he was that far out of postion.

I would happily have either Lampard or Gerrard playing for us but not both.

And as for Stewie, he can stay on the fringe of the England team and keep creating goals for us.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 12, 2007 2:16 PM

tonyblack wrote...

" The local media are not an organic lump of likeminded parochial racists and any suggestion we are is lunacy. Not to mention libellous. "

And I should think not too ! I am merely pointing out that Downing has been hyped up way too much and for way too long. He is a very good player, but there just needs to be less local hero worshiping and MOTM bottles of fizz given to him just because it's him and just because he is a local lad.

" To accuse Ali Brownlee of attacking Boro players in any shape or form is plain wrong, wrong, wrong and it suggest you do not know his work at all. "

Oh dear, did I dare to have a bad word for the sainted Alistair Brownlee ? Personally, I think he has done an exceptional job, he rightly loves and is proud of his home town, and I LOVE to listen to his commentary and pre match warm up. But does that mean that puts him beyond reproach ?

I listen to the match day commentary EVERY week AV. So, SPECIFICALLY, when has he EVER contradicted Bernie's idea that you have to be a home grown lad to take pride in wearing the shirt? I can tell you - NEVER.

So let's be honest about this.

" Rocky, Maccarone, Zenden and co have all come under fire when they did not perfrom and were endlessly accused by Slaven, Brownlee and co that they were only here for the money, like mercernarys. "

Unlike your good self I cannot afford to go to most games and this IS an accusation that is all too often thrown around, and it IS thrown around mainly at the foreign players.

" To say that Johnny Foreigner is not welcome at the club is ridiculous. How do you explain the Juninho worship? What about the popular clamour for Yak, Viduka, Pogotetz and Arca this season or past adulation of Festa, Queudrue? Your theory doesn't hold water at all. "

What you say is in part true, but the fact of the matter is that as soon as the foreign legion don't perform the accusation is immediate, that they are only here for the money. All is well and good whilst they perform, but the minute they don't there is a possy of people with a noose in their hands ready to hang them. That's how it seems to me.

Yak is one of the leagues highest goalscorers and yet he has been bombarded with criticism on the fans sites and wherever you go in the pubs.

Viduka was lambasted for being lazy only a few months ago and yet now he is a hero once more.

You say that my accusations don't hold any water ? Is that right ? How many times was Zenden accused of being here just to put himself in the shop window and of being a money grabbing mercernary for it ? I don't hear the same thing where Woody is concerned, even if he signs or not.

Please tell me when 1, JUST 1, of the local lads was EVER accused of being a mercernary and here ONLY for the money ?

I wonder if Downing has raised his wage demands for a new contract just because of much outside interest ? I bet my life he has and he is quite right to do so, but when Xavier did it, or Zenden, they were villains.

I quote Bernie as he writes for your paper, does the match commentry and has his nightly show, and so he is the one with the greatest voice and say. I complain here as you are one of the FEW, if not the ONLY one in which there is a right of reply.

I don't specifically quote you as I have read through all your work and you have always spoken out against this, it's just a pity that others haven't followed your lead, Brownlee included, because he SHOULD STAND UP TO SLAVEN and tell him that he's wrong when he makes such idiotic comments, and yet he NEVER does, and because of who Alistair Brownlee is he is NEVER criticised for his lack of action.

It's EASY to talk when your are not subject to daily abuse for being a foreigner and it is EASY to talk when you are not the one being lablelled as a " Lazy, Moaning Italian ".

I am not Maccarone and so I don't deserve to be abused for the way he conducted himslef just because he is Italian.

TB

**AV writes: Again I must stress that I can not be held accountable for the actions of others.

I do not think Ali Brownlee is beyond reproach, far from it, I have written things critical of his over optimistic zeal many times, but what you are saying about him is just factually incorrect. Brownlee has NEVER attacked a Boro player for being a mercenary, being a foreigner, or indeed for anything. They are like his children and you must love all your children, even the ugly ones.

And it is not just the foreign legion who get slagged off for not producing. If anything the opposite is true. Local lads get a harder time from fans than outsiders precisely because they are expected to wear the shirt with pride and so are more harshly judged. As a Boro fan you will know that the current in vogue boo-boys targets are Stuart Parnaby and Stewart Downing. Having local accents is not protecting them from anything.




Posted by: tonyblack  | March 12, 2007 2:43 PM

Alf wrote...

Tonyblack, did you support boro when festa was here? You would remember that slaven was a big fan of festa.

Posted by: Alf  | March 12, 2007 2:58 PM

armandobello wrote...

Mr Vickers,

hello, I have been made aware of this thread through the grapevine and wish to make something clear to you.

I have read all the posts here and your reply to them and you are quite right in much of what you say especially about you not being responsible for what others have said.

But, if I may Mr Vickers.

Bernie Slaven is the most well known of all the ex Middlesbrough players because of his work in the local media. As such what he says carries a great deal of authority.

When Massimo Maccarone left the club in the manner in which he did it raised many an eyebrow. His words were aired on The Three Legends programme on Century Radio.

A caller called in and stated that Italians were renouned for being " lazy moaners ". Bernie Slaven being in the position of authority that he is in should have known better and made it quite clear that this is not the case and that you simply cannot tar all Italians with the same brush. He didn't and he in fact agreed with the caller.

As a proud Italian I immediately phoned in to complain and I know that many other Italians in the community and surrounding areas also wrote in to the radio station and to your newspaper.

To date no apology was given for this outragious racist attact and let's be crystal clear that this was a racist attck, pure and simple. So when people like Tony write in the manner in which they do you shouldn't be at all surprised.

I have two boys who are both at local schools. At the best of times they are picked upon for being Italian. Thanks to Bernie Slaven this matter has been made even worse.

The Evening Gazette has a responsibility to act. The fact that it never did speaks volumes to those of us who have been here a long time, contributed to the local area many of us providing employment, who feel marginalised.

Thank you for allowing me to air my views.

Mr A. Bello

**AV writes: Again I reiterate that I can not be held accountable for other media outlets. Although Bernie has a weekly column in the Gazette, like all our work it is sub-edited to a legally exacting standard, a safeguard that is not available on the radio.

I rarely listen to the Three Legends so can't comment on this case but given that it is bearpit radio designed to be confrontational and provocative, has no journalistic control and is conducted in an atmosphere of schoolboy sniggering, such lazy stereo typing would not surprise me.

Posted by: armandobello  | March 12, 2007 3:17 PM

derek wrote...

nigel:

Just to put you right, David Armstrong was never abused by the chicken run and that was not why he left. He left because boro wanted the money.

Downing couldnt lace Spike's boots,and is rightly critised for wasting his obvious talent, his attitude is not what it should be, he needs to be more positive, he passes the ball back too much, and wont get stuck in,accusations you could not direct at his opposite numbers on the Man Utd team.

Local lad or not he needs to be told to attack defenders,then the fans will warm to him

Posted by: derek  | March 12, 2007 3:17 PM

Nigel wrote...

TB: I think its worth differentiating Slaven from Brownlee & AV because Slaven is a pundit who voices opinions some of which I agree are plain daft, but he is an entertainer so he is popular. AV is a journo so hopefully puts a more balanced perspective forward.

The difference between Woodie and Zenden I would suggest is that Woodie has never ever said he would stay beyond the end of the season, he can't be more honest than that. Zenden asked for a pay rise outside of the Boro pay structure and when it was turned down moved for more money to a bigger club.

Don't take Bernies opinion as representative they're not.

One final thought in todays football world most players are mercenaries they find it very difficult to turn down big contract offers, they're human after all.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 12, 2007 3:34 PM

S McClaren of Sloan Square wrote...

Woodgate should be dropped because he doesn't dribble forward, beat his man or score enough goals.

**AV writes: Why, that's ridiculous!

Posted by: S McClaren of Sloan Square  | March 12, 2007 4:20 PM

Nigel wrote...

Derek you're wrong, I was there.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 12, 2007 4:22 PM

Never Happy wrote...

AV - Its all getting a bit boistorous, perhaps you should direct all the blogs about racism to Trevor Phillips.

Back to all things Boro, and my prediction of a Chelsea v Boro final can still happen after todays draw.

However I now think Chelsea may get knocked out by Spurs and think it will be a Boro v Blackburn final.

I am suprised to hear that Massimo was slagged off for being lazy, he always seemed to try his best, its just that he was not good enough for the PL.

If you want to start a blog on Boro's laziest players I'll start us off with Boksic.

C'Mon Boro

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 12, 2007 4:23 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

have I missed something? whats with all the moaning italians having a go at AV because of something bernie has said? do all the english journalists look the same or soemthing?

seriously though, why are you having a pop at AV for this. shouldnt you be writing to century boss or the broadcast complaint people?

its a fair point AV makes. forget the foreign lads having a hard time, the local lads have always taken a load of stick from the chicken run. parky, gilly, kerny, whizza mcgee, stamp, stockdale and now davies, parnaby and downing.

cattermole is god and a future england captain at the minute but you watch, a year down th eline and he'll be getting slagged for being lazy, full of himself and wanting away. its the way of the world

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | March 12, 2007 4:52 PM

Barnet Nigel wrote...

I just hope Man Utd play a reserve side on Monday and we play a reserve side on Saturday!

Posted by: Barnet Nigel  | March 12, 2007 5:46 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Holgate Ender

As you say Cat will be slagged off in due course when he is settled into the team on a more permanent basis. Once he starts making passes to the wrong player too often or his exuberant style gives away some penalties he will get his fair share of friendly fire.

Some things in life remain constant and being a Boro fan is one of them.

Considering the state we were in last summer in terms of age of the squad, quality, funds available, expectations of strife, rookie manager with no qualifications there has been a remarkable turnaround in fortunes.

We may well go out of the cup next week and end up with 45 points but it hasnt been the doom laden season predicted by many and feared by some, though for a time, it did look to be unravelling.

We will still debate who is to blame, why Gibson hasnt put another £15million in the kitty, why dont we take the £10million for Downing and buy three world superstars with the money, why Lambie cant force people to stay or come and play for us.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 12, 2007 5:59 PM

davidt wrote...

Interesting postings, proving again footy fans are a diverse, mostly passionate lot.

I have to say, I thought Downing was poor on Sat, only realising his role in both goals when I saw tv highlights...so apologies to him.

Ive always thought, going back to the days of Rav and Juno that Mr Slaven was a bit xenophobic, ie foreigners leaving sinking ships etc (Of course, Pally only left to better himself), a bit suprising really when The legend himself chose to play his international football for a foreign side.

With regard to Massimo,in all the years Ive watched Boro, I cant remember the crowd wanting so much for a player to succeed, even though he painfully was never good enough for the Premier.

Finally, isnt Arca becoming a super midfielder, (almost by default me thinks).

Posted by: davidt  | March 12, 2007 6:03 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Going back to the Downing debate, mates, I do think he blows hot and cold, and probably has more weak games than really good ones, but Anthony is right - Boro as a team hardly touched the ball for the first 25 mins against the Mancs.Very unfair to blame Stewy.

I for one don't want him to leave - he is our best creative outlet, a talented dead-ball specialist and a superb crosser on the run. Left- footed to boot. And he's always double-marked.

But If we had an outlet on the right wing, it could take the pressure off him. Any takers for the right wing spot? Wot no James Morrison???? Give the lad a chance from now to the end of the season, GS. He will willingly run at defenders and take them on. Not as good as Stewy - but then he hasn't really had a long run in the side to prove it.

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | March 12, 2007 9:29 PM

Barnet Nigel wrote...

davidt - Arca has been great in midfield and Stewie is benefiting from having a left footed player playing inside him just as he did with Zenden.

Posted by: Barnet Nigel  | March 12, 2007 9:36 PM

tony black wrote...

" TB: I think its worth differentiating Slaven from Brownlee & AV because Slaven is a pundit who voices opinions some of which I agree are plain daft, but he is an entertainer so he is popular. AV is a journo so hopefully puts a more balanced perspective forward. "

This is a fair point. My ONLY gripe against Alistair is that he doesn't speak out when Bernie makes such daft comments, when he should. My remarks were never against AV, but the media in general.

Everyone wants the home grown lads to do well, of course they do. For the morale of the town, to highlight the wealth of talent in our area, and to put us on the map we all want this. But sadly the local media has fallen into the trap of the age old English disease in which they build people up only to then knock them down.

Downing is a good player, and if he is left alone he could well turn into a great player. But hyping him for months and months on end will only serve to give people the ammo they need to then knock him down at the first whiff of a bad game and this in turn will only serve to pile the pressure on him.

Hopefully this will not sway him into a move elsewhere as he is massively important to the success of the team.

Downing isn't yet the finished article and he can well do without all the idiots getting on his back.

" Considering the state we were in last summer in terms of age of the squad, quality, funds available, expectations of strife, rookie manager with no qualifications there has been a remarkable turnaround in fortunes. "

I would totally agree with these words. That said, I sincerely hope that the management take a far more pro active approach in the way they communicate with the local media in all sorts of areas.

Xavier was criticised in the Gazette for saying he had outside clubs looking at him and that he wasn't happy with a clause in his contract. Whether this is right or wrong is not relevant. I feel that the club should have spoken to Xavier, sorted these problems out and then issued some kind of defence of him in the press. This should be done when any player comes under attack from the outside in order to help build team moral.

I'm sick to death of players being accused of being here just for the money, or for not having pride in the shirt and not seeing the club defend them against these and other attacks.

We all want success here, but success is built one step at a time looking at every single area of the club and how it works, and not just on the training ground.

TB

Posted by: tony black  | March 12, 2007 9:42 PM

ChrisL wrote...

Derek, You can't have been in the South Stand at Ayresome in the late 70s - Spike got awful stick from the poisonous, twisted cynical old gets I had the misfortune to stand near - unsurprisingly he often played much better away from home.

Posted by: ChrisL  | March 12, 2007 10:47 PM

John Powls wrote...

Nigel

There is no way we should be playing a weakened side against Citeh on Saturday. That would be a profound mistake and absolutely unnecessary.

Posted by: John Powls  | March 13, 2007 8:44 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Clive

Downing always plays better when there is someone on the other flank. The problem with playing Cat there is that he really is a great trier but he will come inside, exactly the same problem as England have when Gerrard plays there. Acres of space on the right and no one to use it.

Downing is not a Ronaldo or Robben but he will try and he will deliver the ball. Like Veruka and Yak he is wasted in his own half. The team plays better when it oprates further up the pitch which allows any pass played to be a killer ball. Fancy flicks, turns or balls slid between defenders mean a potential chance in their box, not many need to come off to create a scoring opportunity. In your own half not many need to go wrong to create scoring opportunities for the opposition.

One of the biggest problems in that respect is Boat, some people can have an off game but get away with it. If George has an off day it tends to be a real shocker because his game doesnt have a good enough technique to carry him through. Possession keeps being squandered with people stranded out of position.

He isnt the only culprit, the Reading result was down to Rochemback and Arca playing silly balls in midfield stranding people up field which had Reading pouring down on the back four.

But that is all beside the point, it is Downings turn to be fall guy so get rid of him and then we can concentrate on someone else. Now that Yak doesnt do much tracking back and his control is poor and he has missed a couple of penalties. Yak by name Yak by performance, the big oaf, gerrim off, give Christie a go, he always scored loads before his injuries (but dont look at the stats, they get in the way)

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 13, 2007 9:17 AM

Never Happy wrote...

Ian -

Supporters will always take out their own frustrations on the players. No matter how well Boro play you always hear someone slagging off one of the players after the game.

Before we played Charlton and Sheff U at the begginning of this year, the moaners were out in force, 'we always lose these games, we are going down'.

When we won both it was 'well its was only Sheff U and Charlton wait till we play Bolton' .

When we stuffed Bolton it wasn't because Boro played well it was because Bolton were crap!

It's a never ending cycle, just like the supporters who always leave early to miss the crush, whats that about?

Boro and moaning fans seem to go hand in hand, but I suppose this applies to most clubs.

Still onwards and upwards against the Manc's this weekend.

Make mine a double!

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 13, 2007 10:05 AM

tony black wrote...

" Going back to the Downing debate, mates, I do think he blows hot and cold, and probably has more weak games than really good ones, but Anthony is right - Boro as a team hardly touched the ball for the first 25 mins against the Mancs.Very unfair to blame Stewy.

I for one don't want him to leave - he is our best creative outlet, a talented dead-ball specialist and a superb crosser on the run. Left- footed to boot. And he's always double-marked.

But If we had an outlet on the right wing, it could take the pressure off him. Any takers for the right wing spot? Wot no James Morrison???? Give the lad a chance from now to the end of the season, GS. He will willingly run at defenders and take them on. Not as good as Stewy - but then he hasn't really had a long run in the side to prove it. "

This is a great post and I agree 100%. Downing needs to be left alone to work on his game and when he has a less effective performance we shouldn't instantly round on him and condemn him. But at the the same time when he has a good game we should just keep calling him " the boy wonder " and say that he is the answer to englands prayers - as he isn't that yet.

I cannot for the life of me understand why morrison doesn't get a good run in this team I really don't. To be honest I think we have lost him for good anyway as the word on the street is that he's had enough and is looking to move as soon as possible and who could blame him.

He isn't playing and I think he like the rest of us knows that the club are looking to buy someone else for this position. personally I think this is a shame as I think with a good run and a bit of confidence he would prove his worth.

Catermole is out of position and it can be seen from the moon. Everyone seems to know it apart from southgate and coops and why I will never know. If I were either of these two, knowing how people outside the area are wanting me to fail because of all the qualifications rubbish, I would explain these sorts of decisions more so that everyone could understand the technical reasons for such decisions, even if they didn't agree with them.

That said, southgate has done well and I have to say that I think he has well exceeded expectations. But it is clear to me that he is NOT leading the ship. I feel that some of his choices are imposed on him from others within the club, perhaps from even the all powerful Lamb.

I say this because I find his team selection on occasions bizarre especially given the fact that he was well known to be hyper critical of mcclaren playing people out of position and yet he seems to do the same a bit too often.

This is how I see it anyway but I could well be wrong.

Mendietta is known to be training with the reserves and even though he may well be on his way out or surpless to requirements I don't like this kind of treatment as it doesn't send a positive message to the rest of the squad.

That said, I hope that southgate has seen all of this and is making some operational changes too. Things are going really well and if the man management of players can be improved, the way the club communicates with the press and defends its players against outside criticism, and if we can get a few really top conditioning coach's and nutritionalists that have won trophies and worked the world over I think things can only get better and that the club will only move from strength to strength.

8 / 10 so far ! If we beat Man UTD in the replay ( which is WELL within our capability ) I will gladly raise that to a 10.......

TB

Posted by: tony black  | March 13, 2007 10:57 AM

Nigel wrote...

JP Is it not worth taking the risk of loosing the game? Citeh are in a mess and we could still field a strong side without playing most of the first eleven. With two games in three days something will have to give.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 13, 2007 11:43 AM

Holgate Ender wrote...

TB, did you have any particular 'really top conditioning coach' in mind? [ ; )]

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | March 13, 2007 12:06 PM

tony black wrote...

" TB, did you have any particular 'really top conditioning coach' in mind? [ ; )] "

No mate. I have no idea but perhaps someone who has won a championship or two in France and Itlay, has had good Champions League experience and has done well there too.

I would just for once really love to see the club make a change in this area, I really would. It hasn't been done before here and I think that the time has long since come for this to happen. For me this would send a clear message that times are a changing.

We have a good solid academy structure and a think that a change would develop this too. How many of us see players out smoking and drinking eh ? This is a small town and we all see and hear things, some true, some not true, but we all know that the culture here is not the right one.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I just think that we have put in a new guy with a new team and that this team should extend as far as possible so that we can keep moving forwards. As I said things are going really well and if we can keep ringing the changes and sweeping out the old and replacing it with the new then this will only be a good thing in my opinion.

TB

Posted by: tony black  | March 13, 2007 12:26 PM

alf wrote...

if the boo boys get on downings back and it affects his play so much then why his he a good player at the riverside and usually anonymous away from home?

Posted by: alf  | March 13, 2007 1:02 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Nigel and JP

Weakened sides can work both ways. It gives your players a rest but can disrupt harmony and the chance to build momentum. We still need points to climb the table to battle for an Intertoto place if required and the next match should be the priority. We tried having two teams last year and despite the remarkable comebacks in europe were shocking.

ManU have a prestigious friendly tonight and play in the league on Saturday against Bolton. The latter is a 12.45 lunchtime kick off. Gate can make a decision as late as 2.30 if he wants.

My own view is that we cant pick and choose, we need the points for several reasons not least making sure Citeh stay in the doldrums. We should pick the strongest team possible because there will be a break anyway for the internationals. Obviously anyone nursing a niggle may need to be rested but that should be it.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 13, 2007 1:21 PM

Nigel wrote...

Does a 'conditioning' coach look after the players hair? Sorry couldn't resist!

Posted by: Nigel  | March 13, 2007 1:37 PM

Alan wrote...

AV: Although I enjoy your artcles in the main I often wonder why your journalistic style continually depict Boro fans as knuckle-dragging morons that just like to boo?

It seems a rather patronising stance to adopt to a townsfolk that is more renowned for developing people with knowledge about football than say "journalism."

I personally know lots of fans who have played semi-pro and even professional terms who share the opinion that Downing is "inconsistent!" Amazingly, they do not boo him.

These are normal intelligent knowledgeable Boro fans who have been involved in the game since they could walk and so not only entitled to an opinion but should be respected.

Perhaps this neanderthal image that you appear to have a predilection to convey in your articles is journalistic license?

Nontheless are these the same fans who identified the many weakness in Maclaren's tenure that you again described childishly as "boo-boys?"

Whether this was a sycophantic approach to defend Maclaren's weaknesses was to guarrantee a press pass or in the interests of maintaining a good rapport with the Gazette is question that only you and your colleagues can answer. Somehow, I reckon that I will not see any article proclaiming: "The Boo-boys were right all along!" People are saying he his inconsistent, people are not booing him!

ps was Downing's first corner of the game also "well crafted" after it had sheared a strip of grass as it headed towards a ManU boot?

**AV writes: "Continually depict Boro fans as knuckle-dragging morons?" Continually? Really? Don't I sometimes depict them as passionate and proud? Knowledgable? Obsessively well informed? Articulate? Well organised? Pro-active? Politically astute? Sometimes I am accused of over-intellectualising the crowd. Oh well, you can't please them all.

Posted by: Alan  | March 13, 2007 2:58 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Nigel

Even I wouldnt stoop that low. OK, conditioning prevents split hairs. Maybe we need some on the message board.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 13, 2007 2:59 PM

Nigel wrote...

IG/JP my feeling is that Woodie, Boat, and Viduka will be rested Saturday.
My belief is that if we give both games equal priority we may fall between two stools.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 13, 2007 3:11 PM

Another nigel wrote...

I too question Downing's effort , or at least the directing of his effort. Then I also doubt Yak every time he misses , I doubt Schwarz every time he makes a mistake .

I sit at every match grumbling to myself - and then applaud as enthusiastically as any when the cross does come over, the shot does go in, a save is made. Surely my short-memory is a trait of all football supporters ?

One thing I don't do is suggest Downing should be back helping out , any more than I expect (or want ) to see Yak or Viduka back in defence.

I do believe he should be more attacking , much of the time Tayl's is alongside or even ahead of him , how often can Tayl's (or Arca) put the pass beyond the full-back for Downing to run on to? He is rarely that far forward.

How often does he run with the ball (beyond the half-way line )? How often does he run into the opposing penalty area? Is 2 goals in 20+ games enough ?

Just to put some context to his contribution

1/ Of course he provides 75% of all goal assists , with no one on the right-side he is bound to

2/ I watched him several times for the Reserves .In those days his game was energy/commitment/direct , he ran , got in shots etc. different level I know, but is his current positional play his idea or that of the coaches ?

Posted by: Another nigel  | March 13, 2007 4:20 PM

John Powls wrote...

Nigel

Ian answered for me. Risk losing the game - I think not.

Get 2 or 3 ahead and sub some players early - fine.

Posted by: John Powls  | March 13, 2007 4:50 PM

Paul Bell wrote...

"AV: Although I enjoy your artcles in the main I often wonder why your journalistic style continually depict Boro fans as knuckle-dragging morons that just like to boo?"

This is symbolic of being what is known as a rara fan. These so called fans believe that they are superior to the average Boro fan. They all hang out "in a silly little forum" and they like to gang up on people who dare to view things in a different light to what they do. The average fan laughs at them and their ridiculous little message board.

Unfortunately, AV tends to let himself down and frequently tends to let his standards slip by taking too much notice of what these simpletons have to say!


Posted by: Paul Bell  | March 13, 2007 5:17 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Paul Bell

I personally view the blog as the best vehicle to air my views and read others on the Boro.

As I see it AV's role is to provide a medium for us to communicate with each other. He also raises issues that people respond to, my guess is that he sets a thread running and it will go the way we choose.

It appears he takes no side other than being a Boro fan reflecting on the different groupings that make up Boro's fan base. That includes those with scraped knuckles, chipped shoulder blades and boring old codgers like me. In a free society even simpletons have the right to speak, so I do!

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 13, 2007 6:21 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

alan/paul bell - what are you talking about? AV is a just a rara slagging boo-boys? are you touched? didnt he get banned from the club for having a go at robbo?

AV has been talking about the same things we fans talk about for years. he is the only reporter on any paper what understands or even cares what we think and most times on the big issues he gets it bang on.

and he is a real fan. and i know because the night before the zds he was stood with us in trafalgar square singing and EIO and drinking

and if you think this board is for simpletons welcome aboard. you definitely meet the criteria.

**AV writes: I think he was refering to Fly Me To The Moon with the 'simpletons' thing rather than here.

Posted by: Holgate Ender  | March 13, 2007 6:49 PM

Nigel wrote...

Paul I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.

If you are saying that those of us who post on this blog are ridiculous and laughable then good for you for having an opinion. As you may have noticed others have opinions too, we are all entitled to them.

I'm not too sure you are qualified to speak on behalf of the average Boro fan, whoever they are.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 14, 2007 9:33 AM

Paul Knighton wrote...

AV your a legend dont worry about it, the only boro reporter i actually read religiously.

Just wondering about some previous blogs and someone mentioned about how we should keep the white band on the strip. I totally agree with this point.

Could you not use your position to get this across to gibson as every fan i know wants the white band on the strip and not have some of the errea inspired disasters such as the 97 strip with the badge on the arm.....

**AV writes: If you look back to last week there was a long discussion on this subject. I am led to believe that a decision on next season's bandless shirt has been taken and it comes from the highest possible authority.

Posted by: Paul Knighton  | March 14, 2007 11:15 AM

Nigel wrote...

Reading AV's response re next seasons strip, given that 'the highest possible' authority is Steve Gibson then on this occasion Mr. Gibson has made a mistake.

Sad but true. I would like to hear his reasoning for abandoning the chest band. Still its not the end of the world, it will come back.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 14, 2007 11:37 AM

Never Happy wrote...

On the white band theme there is a simple solution.

All fans should refuse to buy the new shirt if it has no band, and wear this seasons shirt with the band for next seasons games.

Hit the club in the pocket and they will take notice of public opinion.

C'Mon Boro!

Posted by: Never Happy  | March 14, 2007 11:40 AM

Paul Bell wrote...

Holgate Ender said "and if you think this board is for simpletons welcome aboard. you definitely meet the criteria."

Apparently not as well as you do mate!

Posted by: Paul Bell  | March 14, 2007 12:08 PM

Disappointed wrote...

Totally agree. Stewie doesn't do himself any favours sometimes but the same criticisms were hurled at fellow left wingers Chris Waddle & John Barnes, so he's in pretty good company!!

My 1st game this season was the Sheff U match and I was appalled at the level of abuse he was getting. This kid has the best left foot in England, he's young, double marked by every visiting team, plays for England and he's a Boro lad - what more do the fans want!!!

They should be singing his name every time he touches the ball instead of raining boos down on him.

No doubt he'll leave in the next couple of years, win lots of medals elsewhere and then the Boo-boys will attack the club for selling their best players.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone!!!!

Posted by: Disappointed  | March 14, 2007 1:22 PM

tonyblack wrote...

"This kid has the best left foot in England "

This is the kind of over hyping that i'm on about. I think it's safe to say that we all think he's good but to say that he has the best left foot in England is just ridiculous, in my opinion.

" John Barnes, so he's in pretty good company!! "

John WHO ????

Very good for Liverpool, did 1 bit of Pele' type skill for England and that's about it. Just like Ian Wright at Arsenal he was very good for club and then not so good for his country.

" They should be singing his name every time he touches the ball instead of raining boos down on him."

Yes as home fans they most certainly should, but not as the "boy wonder" as he's affectionately known by Alistair Brownlee.

" No doubt he'll leave in the next couple of years, win lots of medals elsewhere and then the Boo-boys will attack the club for selling their best players.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone!!!! "

SADLY YES.

TB

Posted by: tonyblack  | March 14, 2007 2:28 PM

Holgate Ender wrote...

Downing gets loads of stick for "not tracking back" (which isnt true because he chased 60 yrads to tackle milner at newcastle) but when the other fella was in charge and made him a defensivce midfield stewy was slagged by the same idiots for "sitting to deep." cant these people see that he is playing the way the manager wants?

if you look back over the last two years whenever boro have played well it was because stewy was on fire. he is the one that has put the crosses in for yak, dooks, jimmy, massimo. we need that.

the problem is that the other lot try to stop him. man mark him and double up. man u are the best team in the country so maybe no surprize that he wasnt allowed to dribble about like a dad in the garden. people who complain about players not doing this or that must think its easy.

btw gutted about the band. if they have shirts left over coz they don't sell maybe they could use them to gag paul bells mouth.



Posted by: Holgate Ender  | March 14, 2007 2:51 PM

John Stone wrote...

Well said AV.

It seems to be forgotten that we are competing with other teams in the Prem with far larger support and budgets.

None of the local lads have let us down over recent years.
It seems to be a Teesside problem where whinging seems to be the norm. for about 25% of the population. Ticket prices, parking, access etc.etc.

Well done to GS for pulling things round when the whingers were calling for his head,and the true Boro supporters all support the local lads including SD.

Remember Woody chose his home town club to resurrect his career and I hope he stays !

Posted by: John Stone  | March 14, 2007 2:58 PM

Nigel wrote...

TB out of interest who is the best left footed English player?

John Barnes was good enough to play for a championship winning side so if Stewies that good then that makes him brilliant in my book. Players of that quality don't play for Boro that often.

Anyway who cares how good he is for his country?
So far he has provided the assists to get us into a UEFA cup final and has kept us in this seasons FA cup final with his contribution against Man Utd. If he had been good enough to single handedly destroy Man Utd he definitley wouldn't be playing for Boro.

Give him some credit and allow those fans that want to laud him as a star, that is what being a footie supporter is about. Its up to the professionals to make quantitive assesments of a players ability.

Posted by: Nigel  | March 14, 2007 3:56 PM

B.Tomo wrote...

Why is it that the Man.U tickets are priced in three different price brackets.And can only be bought in order of 36 pound 42 pound and 35 pound price range?

**AV writes: Because United have allocated Boro seats in three separate sections of the ground across three different price bands. The order of sale is determined by security needs based on how easy it is to segregate those particular them.

More to the point, the FA stipulate a minimum charge in these game but in these days of sky high prices shouldn't they also stipulate a maximum one?

Posted by: B.Tomo  | March 14, 2007 7:32 PM

alf wrote...

MFC and gibson are not completely innocent when it comes to the Man utd ticket prices. According to the FA rules the minimum price must be £15 but if it is higher the 2 clubs must agree on the price.

So really MFC were happy for Man Utd to charge those prices and only receive 3,000 tickets rather than cheaper prices and 6,000 fans.

Why dont they offer free travel as they will make about £750k from the replay? I think MFC arent expecting us to progress and so have decided to cash in. NOw what ever happened to playing for the sport and glory.

**AV writes: I think you are right that the economics played heavily in the decision. With the money from the live broadcast, Riverside gate money and 40% of the Old Trafford gate money (70,000 times and average ticket price of £30 = £2.1m) plus prize money if they win, Boro could make as much from this game as they did from the entire UEFA Cup run.

I think there is a compelling moral case for the FA to legislate for MAXIMUM as well as minimum ticket prices.

On the transport issue I think you are right. Think back to Charlton's 'Operatioon Riverside' with its convoy of coaches and subsidised trains and planes. That was a show of intent by the club that they valued theri fans and that they wanted to win the game more than they wanted to make it commercially viable.

Boro shoudl be doing things like that. The PR value of such a gesture is incalcuable.

Posted by: alf  | March 15, 2007 10:35 AM

alf wrote...

No idea hgow much it costs to hire a coach but if the club normal charge about £20 for a 60 seater caoch then thats only £1200 per coach. say we took 70 coaches.. thats only about £80,000 cost. CHicken feed when you think the club could be making nearly £1m from the replay.

Posted by: alf  | March 15, 2007 11:34 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Alf and AV

This is a similar situation to us playing at home in the cup to lower league teams. They expect us to get a bumper gate and want higher prices to get their cut.

The scenario we have seen is a classic cup tale, play at home to a huge club in front of a sell out crowd plus a prime time TV slot, draw then have a replay before an even bigger crowd.

What will tell us what the club expects is the team on Saturday. We have a premier league match against Citeh. A win will give us the potential for extra place money - it was £800,000 a place last year or thereabouts, it will take us a step closer to an Intertoto cup place and improbable though it sounds a UEFA cup spot.

I dont think we can qualify via the league but is is a target. I am not saying we have no chance on Monday but the likelihood is a ManU - Chelsea Cup Final and with the league Cup already decided then 7th qualifies for europe. If we dont try then we wont reach an Intertoto place.

Losing or drawing at home to Citeh wont help in the league or the cup, it can easily knock confidence even if a weakened team plays. I suspect ManU will go all out to stuff Bolton then pull players off if needed but their priority will be three points.

Sir Alex will then look at the cup replay and think that if he gets that out of the way his players will have a break from club football, surprisingly there may well be the odd niggle that will prevent his players joining the international squads.

There is no real case for resting anyone for Saturday as I cannot see ManU doing it against Bolton - Big Sam will have them wound up following the home humiliation to ManU. The only caveat I can think of is that ManU play at lunch time so Gate can look at the situation before he names his team.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | March 15, 2007 11:38 AM

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