About this blog

Untypical Boro is a lively topical blog by the Evening Gazette's award winning football columnist Anthony Vickers that aims to get behind the headlines to flesh out the stories that Boro fans are talking about.

Incisive, provocative and well informed it seeks to engage with articulate supporters and give them a platform to help set the agenda on the issues that matter.

Recent comments

Recent Posts

Sponsored links

Archives

Links

Advertiser

Sponsored links


Gaffer Gareth Earns Political Point At Villa

Posted by on November 28, 2006 11:04 PM | 

HE MAY not realise it but Gareth Southgate scored a major political victory at Aston Villa. A point away at one of the top six is always good. To achieve it with a radical tactical shake-up better still.

But perhaps more importantly, as far as the Chickenrun chattering classes are concerned, he achieved it against the man he has been measured against since the day he was appointed.

In a kind of intense soccer Celebdaq, gaffer Gareth has been critically examined alongside both Martin O'Neill and Tony Mowbray with the fortunes on the ground of each fluctuating wildly by the week. Mogga's stock is hypothetical as while he can call on a long term sentimental hardcore local support from the Holgate nostalgists he is now working in what is literally a different league. Any comparision is entirely theoretical.

O'Neill's presence a reality though and far more troublesome. The boss who had talks with Boro before both parties failed to agree terms - he wanted to bring his own staff and work long distance flexitime, the club wanted continuity and a 24/7 commitment - has dramatically transformed a side that last season was down with the dead men and on a par with Boro, if mot behind. Now they are chasing a Champions League spot having spent about the same. The only key transfers in at Villa are Petrov and Sutton, players moved by personal loyalty and who may just as well have followed the boss to the Riverside.

From day one, or week one certainly, Martin O'Neill has been used as a stick to beat Southgate with; sometimes by people who genuinely supported the Irish candidate and believe the club have missed a trick in failing to accomodate him, and sometimes by those habitual 'typical Boro' pessimists continually looking for any weapon that comes to hand to express an inate frustration born of long years of failure. In that first week Boro collapsed away at Reading to let slip an early two goal lead and lose 3-2 and days later Villa comfortably beat the new boys 2-1 and eyebrows were raised, notes made and knives sharpened.

Defeat at Villa Park last Saturday would have spelt trouble. It would have underlined that early impression of many that the club should have bent over backwards to get O'Neill and without doubt it would also have strengthened the position of those who would measure the manager by the one that got away. As one regular poster on here put it, it would have been a Jim Bowen moment, a case of "let's see what you could have won".

But Southgate has clawed back some of his stock and gained some credibility with the display at Villa. He out-thought O'Neill and the shape he opted for - one his rival used so successfully at Leicester and Celtic - frustrated in-form Villa and helped Boro build a platform for a display that earned a useful point, kept a good running, and provided a storming second half performance that pointed to a more optimistic future than early season results suggested.

Of course, there is still a long way to go. Villa, and O'Neill, are still sitting pretty at the top while Boro are precariously placed just above the relegation dog-fight and far from secure and still struggling to create. But in getting a result - and from a shrewd tactical move and a slice of overdue luck - Southgate has earned political breathing space and shored up his position.


Comments (19)

Malcom wrote...

Good post, Vic.

I was sad to lose out on O'Neill as he's a great manager. It's my understanding that it was in no small part to McClaren's engineeering of his coaching staff's contracts even though he knew he was going to bugger off and leave us for Leeds. Sorry, I meant Newcastle. Ah, it was England he ended up going with. Wonder how he's doing?!

I'm firmly behind Gate though. He's a good man and deserves our support. Lets hope Gate wins, or at least tries to win, the next battle with O'Neill - the christmas fight for Robbie Keane.

Posted by: Malcom  | November 29, 2006 3:21 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

We should all remember that O'Neill wanted to be near his sick wife and therefore wanted to be part time. I believe they live in Herts and from a personal viewpoint for O'Neill it is better for him to manage Villa where it would be easier to devote more time to both his job and family.

It would have been great to have him at the Riverside but it was not to be. Gate is our manager and we should back him to succeed.

Rumour is we are willing to listen to offers for Mendi in the window, how about a swap for SWP? Maybe not.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 29, 2006 9:24 AM

capi wrote...

Who said we even went for MON? As far as i know we only ever went for Venables and to make southgate assistant

Don't know where these stories about MON wanting the job part time came from as I dont remember any quotes anywhere. Its just speculation and a get out clause for not going for MON.

I think the reason why we never went for MON is more down to him being an outspoken manager and Gibson has a history of going for novice managers who he can mould and influence how he wants to.

He doesnt want a manager who will come in with his own different opinions and shake up the club. Gibson doesnt want a manager who isnt afraid to quit if he doesnt agree with the chairman.

Dont know why the club are so keen to keep the current coaching staff as our record in the league has been pretty average for five seasons.

**AV writes: You are right there were no quotes as the whole thing was kept very discreet but the Gazette were kept closely informed of developments and I can assure you there were extensive talks

No agreement could be reached but the fact that talks were held before Venables and/or Southgate entered the frame show that a) the club considered him to be their to top target and b) O'Neill was actively considering it.

Posted by: capi  | November 29, 2006 10:09 AM

red_rebel wrote...

*sticks hand up sheepishly*

I have been judging the Gate against Southgate because that decision by the club is the most important one they have made in a decade.

With a UEFA Cup final under out belts, two years in Europe, a trophy within recent memory and the chairman we have we could and should have had a big name boss to move us on to the next level. If not O'Neill then Hitzfeld or AN Other. It has been a major opportunity missed.

Because of that I wince when I see Boro grind out another turgid draw and Villa flying high with a squad no better than ours. What's the difference there this year? An experienced manager.

I will support the Gate because he is Gibbo's choice and is here for the foreseeable future but I still think the club have made a strategic mistake that we could regret.

Posted by: red_rebel  | November 29, 2006 10:14 AM

Martha Fakhir wrote...

red rebel wrote, "we could and should have had a big name boss to move us on to the next level."

This comment was also made by a Charlton fan regarding Curbishley on the Sky Sports phone in two weeks ago to which the reply was made "There is no next level for Charlton - that was as good as it gets".

Maybe the same thing applies to the Boro and people should realise this. (Just a thought!)

Posted by: Martha Fakhir  | November 29, 2006 10:57 AM

capio wrote...

AV, so when did we start talking to MON as the Venables fiasco started not long after the season finsihed.

Venables was interested until he got wind of McClaren wanted him then we were used to negotiate a good deal with England.

If the the MON talks happened during the season, then surely that would have unsettled McClaren? Would he have left even if he didnt get the England job? Was Gibson looking for a new manager as far back as january? And who was that person that was set up on the Keith Lamb century phone in to phone in right at the end and say it had come to his attention that mcclaren hadnt signed his contract? Keith lamb didnt seem flustered by itr so maybe is was a bit of internal politics...interesting stuff..


**AV writes: there certainly were some months of dark internal politicical machinations, spin and counter-spin, and a bit of arm-twisting. As you say, Lambie's little hand-grenade about the contract was an eye-opener.

Venables and O'Neill were both publically linked with Boro at the end of May, El Tel using his column in the News of the World to out himself as a candidate just as the O'Neill rumours started to circulate widely. Our understanding is that the O'Neill talks at that point were a second session with the initial interest being raised some months before as the club made contingency plans for McClaren's exit.

Posted by: capio  | November 29, 2006 12:22 PM

capio wrote...

I wonder if anyone at the club were that fussed if mcclaren stayed or left? Didnt see many players and admin staff pleading in the papers trying to persuade him to stay.

Was it a calculated gamble by gibson that he was going? And why did that four year contract remain unsigned for so long then suddenly it was signed within days of the century phone in? It seems that Gibson wasnt a fan of his agent so maybe his agent was holding out for something.

Gibson implied recently that his agent made up that other clubs wanted McClaren so we would offer him more wages. Would be interesting to know if Southgate is on top wack or starting off at a low salary with increments as he proves himself and meets targets.

**AV writes: I think McClaren's departure in one form or another was anticipated. Our understanding is that McClaren was reluctent to sign the offered contract because it contained elements that tipped the balance in the clubs' favour but was cleverly manoevered into it.

Not only did no-one publicly mourn the club's most successful ever manager's departure but barely a week goes by without some comment being made by someone to twist the knife further.

Posted by: capio  | November 29, 2006 12:49 PM

Neil (Baku) wrote...

Vic,

I grumbled loudly when we "missed" the chance to get MON.

But to give Gate his due, he is slowly starting to show that he has knowledge if not experience, of tactics and he appears to be learning about playing a settled side albeit now and again changing formation.

And yes, he has a lot still to learn, but I agree with Ian, he's our team boss so let's just get on with it and support him as best we can. He will make more mistakes, hell which manager doesn'?; Ferguson at Southend to name but one this season.

HOWEVER: In terms of the man at the helm, Gibbo, he has his vision of an all England club at Boro (or at least all British), and who can blame him. But it's HIS vision and maybe not what the discerning Teesside public want?

We thought we were on the up after our Carling Cup win, but in my eyes we have actually gone backwards. Is it because of Gibbo's refusal to think outside the box?, We'll never know.

We as fans craved success in our new post 1986 era, and we have eventually got at least some; an established PL outfit, 5 major finals, a trophy in the cabinet and Uefa two seasons running.

But we want more, the level of expectation has move up a hundred fold since Brucie's boys ran out at Hartlepool and that's what is killing us.

A lot of us have short term memories, me included, and I sometimes have to sit and think back to where we came from. But it doesn't help.

I still feel like some others on here, that we have missed a trick in not getting MON or some other experienced manager to take us that stage further.

But no, we followed what has become a Boro tradition and got another rooky manager in charge. So the cycle starts all over again.

And I think that is the root cause of why so many fans have become so disillusioned and frustrated.

We've paid for the journey more than once, and the scenery isn't changing.

**AV writes: You are right that overly inflated expectations are a problem but it is not just fans being overly demanding. It is also down to the club who promote the idea that the Great Leap Forward is just around the corner with every Red Book renewal letter.


Posted by: Neil (Baku)  | November 29, 2006 1:12 PM

capio wrote...

McClaren is obviously an ambitious man which you can understand, but a bit more loyalty would have gone a long way. I dont know how much the local media took to him but I can imagine some weren't keen on him with his constant spin and lame excuses which must have caused lack of respect in media circles.

I think the england job is too big for him. He's got a tough job on his hands to get us into euro 2008. If we dont qualify he will leave, if we do qualify he will leave after the tournament unless we have a fantastic tournament.

I feel the national media will turn the screw on him in interviews as it gets closer to qualifying/not qualifying. I dont see him getting a better job after England than at Boro. But will he care after a nice pay off from england?

Managing England is better suited when you are in your twilight years. Just look at the damage it does to a managers reputation.

Will we see southgate being put forward in 4-8 years as a new England manager? The quality of English managers about is pretty poor.

Posted by: capio  | November 29, 2006 1:43 PM

dave wrote...

Why shouldnt we have high expectations when you look at the quality of players and money since moving to the Riverside?

You cant compare it to the club at Ayresome Park. Its a different club apart from in the name and a totally different era.

Just look at our current strikers and defenders and keeper and we are under achieving. We have under achieved in every season in the premier league apart from when we finsihed 7th.

We must be in the top 10 spenders in england over the last 11 years or so. Just look at how Bolton have consistently finished above us in the league..that is where we should be in the league.

Cup runs are good but arnt a true reflection on how good a team is. Just think back Millwall made Europe. Chesterfield nearly beat us in the fa cup..etc

Posted by: dave  | November 29, 2006 2:06 PM

Ian Gill wrote...

Even from afar without the local titbits it was fairly clear before Xmas last year that Mac would not be staying long term. The fact Gibson went on the radio phone in was a clear sign that all was not harmony in the Boro household.

There are not many Boro fans heartbroken at Mac leaving. I remember when the polls were coming out saying only 25% of fans were happy with him becoming the new England manager joking with colleagues that they were all Boro fans.

So does Steve Gibson have a dream of the Boro nation united with a local team? I think we all want a balance between exciting imports and local heroes.

The new proposals from Europe about wage caps and quotas may well happen. It was interesting that many of the bigger clubs were slow off the mark this season following the World Cup. Wenger has said he had 15 players on duty and they were slow to get into their stride - he says he doesnt look at passports when he picks players but he certainly does when he looks for excuses for, relatively speaking, poor performances. The fact we have some good young players bodes well for the future.

The problem we have now is Gate trying to get the best out of someone elses coaching set up with most of the players the legacy of the ex manager. We have already seen the start of the exodus with JFH, Doriva gone and Ugo away on loan, the club willing to listen to offers for Mendi and Parloursaurus off the radar.

Gate will be his own man and that is who we have. He will move on in a few years time, nearly all managers do. Whilst we pine for a top drawer manager we should bear in mind that if Van Gal or M'ON came it would only be short term until an opportunity at a big club came round.

We are a medium sized club experiencing a wobble, let us hope for some stability in the rest of the season and kick on again.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | November 29, 2006 2:36 PM

davidt wrote...

Cant agree Dave. Middlesbrough hasnt under achieved, On the contrary, for a club its size and with its Limited in numbers hard core fan base, the club has, through its astute executive and good management, over achieved and punched well above its real weight.

Posted by: davidt  | November 29, 2006 7:18 PM

John Powls wrote...

Vic

Clearly the rot has now set in for MO'N! Gate scored the political point last Saturday and Citeh scored 3 last night.

**AV writes:

Yes, just as other teams bad runs end against Boro it has started to work the other way too. If a team going well loses to Boro they go into a tailspin. Look at Everton. Flying until they came her. Newcastle, collapsed after the Riverside. Now Villa...

Posted by: John Powls  | November 30, 2006 8:20 AM

dave wrote...

davidt, You are wrong. just look at how much money we have spent in the last 11 years. probably about 100M!

Dont forget how much tv money we now having coming into the club. with the money coming in and money spent on internationals. we should be 9th every season as a minimum. Gibson must get depressed when he sees how much money has been wasted by previous managers. but i suppose his investment is still becoming worth more. £60M maybe

Posted by: dave  | November 30, 2006 11:49 AM

Never Happy wrote...

If Boro manage to rid themselves of Ray, Mendi and Ugo in January we will have one of the youngest squads in the PL. This will also free up some cash for new signings and we all know which positions these are needed for.

I read today that Preston want 5 million for Nugent. Why don't Boro test the water now and make them an offer?
It could be all done and dusted so that he becomes a Boro player on January 1st.

The other priority of a right sided midfielder with pace will be harder to fill. Maybe Milner from Newcastle, with Viduka being used as the bait.

SWP from Chelsea would be a good signing however I think his wages rather than any transfer fee would be the major stumbling block. Another option would be Gera from WBA who did not look out of place in the PL.

Boro's master talent finder Don Mackay seems to have gone all quiet, is this because he has located some foriegn superstar that he is keeping under wraps?

Posted by: Never Happy  | November 30, 2006 4:50 PM

Clive Hurren wrote...

Fact is, we're a very good Cup side. 5 finals in 10 years and 2 other semis is a fantastic record. Who in their right mind ever expected Boro to reach a UEFA Final?

I think we do under-achieve in the League, however - you've only to look at Fulham, Bolton and Blackburn to see that, whose squads are weaker than ours on paper .

Clearly the jury's out on Gate. We certainly need a lot more wins, especially away from home, we need to climb well into the top ten and we need to play more attacking, entertaining football.

Yes, Boro took an almighty risk, but I do have faith in Gibbos' judgement. Gate needs to be given a chance to prove himself. We're seeing signs now that he's starting to get it right.

A final word; look at the example of Chris Coleman. A dodgy start, sure, but Fulham are flying now!

Posted by: Clive Hurren  | November 30, 2006 7:55 PM

John Powls wrote...

Never Happy

I would add Stephen Appiah to your list of midfielders - and Mr. Mackay only needs to dust off his old post-it notes for his agent's number since we tried to get him on loan before he went to Turkey.

Clive

I agree the Cookie Coleman parallel but you could argue they had less choice and had had some experienced managers before.

We were an established Prem outfit with a recent Cup pedigree, just off the back of a UEFA Final at our 2nd attempt, a Chairman to die for and a squad full of Academy graduates with potential.

So why did we have to have our 3rd rooky manager in a row and have to wait 2 seasons whilst he gets up to speed when we could have done what Gibbo promised and gone for a top drawer manager and moved on - not backwards.

I have never doubted - and still don't - that Gate has what it takes and will eventually come good. And I wanted it to be with us - but just not yet.

But, hey, we are where Gibbo's put us so we have to make the best.

Posted by: John Powls  | December 1, 2006 8:56 AM

Ian Gill wrote...

Dave

Everyone else has the TV money coming in as well. Many clubs have spent more than us. In relation to Bolton we may have underachieved over the last couple of years but we have been to five cup finals, won a trophy and been in the prem for more years than them, gone to cup semis.

Teams like Everton, Toon, Villa, Spurs, Citeh are all bigger clubs than us, with a a better history of trophies. Their average crowds are bigger than our ground, they have bigger fan bases to buy the merchandise. As a rough rule of thumb we tend to finish in line with our average attendance. Rather than saying we have underachieved it is more appropriate to say we could have achieved more.

As to getting a top drawer manager, we will never know if M'ON would have come. I do believe that a top drawer manager would be here until a bigger club came along, even MacMoses was tempted to leave. But it is all academic.

Posted by: Ian Gill  | December 1, 2006 11:58 AM

Nigel wrote...

Steve Gibson has a clear vision of what he wants to achieve at Boro and part of that was wanting a British manager, therefore once O'Neil and Venables were ruled out it became almost impossible to fulfill the 'top draw' manager criterea. So he took a risk appointing a guy he clearly thought would be the next but one manager.

If we finish mid table ish then maybe in the medium term the risk will pay off. My feeling is that we seem to be heading the right way. The Man Utd performance (not the result) will be another indicator of progress.

But to concurr with others the club has raised the bar in terms of what success to expect, not long ago there was talk of achieving a place in the champions league.

Given that after reaching a UEFA cup final nothing is impossible a top four finish means finishing above one of Chelsea, Man Utd., Arsenal, Liverpool....not impossible but almost.

I know we all look at Villa with envy but who knows where they or the Boro will finish.

Posted by: Nigel  | December 1, 2006 2:22 PM

Post a comment

(If you haven't left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won't appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.)

Advertiser