Right Royal Battering For Red Faced Boro
I'LL KEEP this short. I'm embarrassed. Boro were butchered. It could easily have been six or seven. More maybe. Steele made a great save. Ripley made two or three. Kebe rounded the keeper and missed a sitter. Reading had a stonewall penalty waved away. Our spot-kick was soft. Even the ref felt sorry for us.
It was obvious after the first two or three minutes they were going to be under the cosh. Cracks appeared alarmingly early and soon turned into fissures wide enough for Reading's front men to run through at will. An inexperienced defence? Yes. But a poor defence too. The central unit was disjointed. Frightened. Inept. Physically and mentally weak. The full-backs were run ragged and failed to stop raids and crosses. Almost every goal was self-inflicted: cheaply conceded free-kicks; a failure to clear routine balls into the box; aerial balls going unchallenged; long punts forward bouncing between static centre-backs. I swear the Reading players were laughing with glee at how easy it was.
The post-Wheater, post-Bates defence has been tortured in every game bar Forest (when the unit in front of them worked like Trojans to grind the opposition down) and Boro have now leaked 10 goals in three games - and arguably but for a one man penalty box whirlwind in davies at Millwall it could have been far more. The really alarming thing is that there is very little Mowbray can do. Clearly Maxi Haas is not ready. Will he throw in Rhys Williams who has barely fit and who has never played at centre-back in the first team? Will he play himself?
The midfield was useless too. Ineffectual Zemmama - "don't call him the new Juninho!" - was lost on the left. He barely got a touch in the first half an hour, was repeatedly caught for pace and was brushed aside as he turned inside time after time then disappeared. Robson was poor. Taylor was swamped. Bailey battled and beavered away but gradually his single-handed fire-fighting faded.
Up front Lita didn't have his greatest game but he did score his mandatory two go
als against a former team. He worked hard enough without any support. Emnes was anonymous. And when Boyd came on... well, he has the mobility of the Transporter. "Give him the ball in the box he will score." Yeah, right. He had a fantastic chance and fluffed it. Apart from that he did absolutely nothing.
Coming back to between the sticks. Steele needed a rest after a butter-fingered few weeks. But not like this. He was at fault for at least one of the goal but made a good save before going off after looking to have pulled a muscle in his side leaving teenager Connor Ripley - due to play for the Academy in the FA Youth Cup on Sunday - to come on. He had never played a minute of first team football. He did OK. He made three good saves but still leaked three,. It was a traumatic debut.
It was terrible. We know the Boro squad is thin and fragile - injured Arca and infectious McDonald being out made it worse - but that display was unacceptable and deeply worrying. It was like the first half of the the shameful 3-0 defeat at Watford welded to the second half of the torrid 3-0 defeat at QPR.
Don't let the goal paper over the cracks: if this defence is not shored up then this team could easily go down. The thinking even just a few weeks ago was that Boro would just scrape over the line and could rebuild in the summer but the seven point gap has evaporated and who knows what psychological damage that hammering has done to the youngsters. Bates and McManus are months away and Davies is an open ended absence. And now we have a rookie keeper and nothing in reserve. We need reinforcements now. Mogga has talked about bringing in a keeper on an emergency loan - the crisis is just as pressing at the heart of defence.
The alarm bells are ringing: If we don't act now we could be in deep, deep trouble.
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It's just not funny any more. It has got to the point where Mackems and Geordies (there are a couple who break cover from time to time in North Yorkshire) feel so sorry for us that they no longer make jokes.
To have someone with whom, a short while ago, banter was shared, now increasingly offering sympathy and patting you on the shoulder as if to say "it'll be alright, don't let it get you down...", is just too much.
If I bring my boots on Tuesday, can I please get on, at least for a spell in the second half? I have a video showing me playing in excerpts from a number of games in which I was OK(ish). You might notice the hair changing colour between the clips, the team strips changing, and the hairline moving northwards (not to mention the waistline unaccountably increasing in girth), but the clips were taken from the same half a dozen games last season. Honest!
Look, it's the same sort of video/DVD clips that have fooled the club in the past. And since I'm local, there would be no question of my needing time to settle in, to come to terms with the intensity of the game in this country etc. I'm available, I'm keen and I'm not injured - so that puts me several points ahead of most of the players on the staff.
I may not be as fast as I used to be (actually whilst never quick, I was once at least adequate, though my current progress could be described as "stately" which would be similar to several on our playing staff), but I would give 100% effort and my head wouldn't go down. However any striker trying to go round me towards goal would find it a very long way, and would be tired before he made too much goalward progress. It's got to be worth a try.....
AV - I was there - it's as near as I get to a home game for me and I took my 6 year old lad for his first "Missleboro" game. He enjoyed it, probably the only "Boro" fan who did!
A more objective view:
Negatives:
1) Five in midfield with Emnes and the Moroccan wide yet swamped by a standard four
2) Silly free kicks or lost possession led to goals as you say - Reading at 5-2 were still content to hit row Z when required
3) Jason Steele - made an amazing save and if fit would have got to the first free kick in my view
4) We had a goal rightly disallowed for offside (my boy thinks we lost 5-3!) - too easy for Reading to work as a unit
5) Boyd - started off running the channels but the ball didn't come then gave up
6) Defence like the Red Sea
7) at the end three or four players stormed down the tunnel without a second glimpse - don't like that even if they were embarrassed.
Positives:
1) Conor Ripley - made some great saves with no protection - hope he doesn't suffer having let three in
2) Rhys Williams - great to see him on the pitch and you could see he has class - just get fit quick lad
Perhaps it's me - last game I saw was Blackpool at home 0-3 last season - those who saw won't forget - so I'm staying away for the rest of the season!
UTB............
Forever Dormo at 1:06AM : But are you cheap?
Gibson and Lamb - oh what have you done !!!
Mogga, why such inconsistency from one game to the next ? Millwall good QPR bad, Forest good Reading butchered
Look at Ipswich and Bristol City, down in the dumps a few weeks back, managers find and instill consistency and the results come - Boro and consistency don't go together. Don't want to harp on to the rose coloured glasses brigade, however two steps forward and ten back, where the hell is the improvement ???
I don't know if it was a good or bad thing that the live blog did not show for the game. The team certainly didn't!
I think we need an explanation form you AV as to the status? Are we going in to liquidation? Is the live blog out of money? Suddenly AV has gone very quiet and appears to be missing.
Come out and tell us what is happening Vic. We the supporters at least deserve that much.
Oops. Sorry AV. I think I just got confused. That was directed at Steve and Larry.
RED ARMY.
**AV writes: Teesside will get the laptop it can afford.
Forever -
John Powls and I have already offered the width option to previous managers but it has never been taking up but if there is someone else with suitbale girth maybe they join the three of us too make a back six.
Those three points dropped against Swansea and Forest now look huge - I suppose you could argue that 3-1 against Swansea makes it five points.
Throw in the two lost against Preston and we have wasted the situations where we have played well.
In any season form comes and goes but whether it is a promotion battle or relegation fight you need to end the season in a good run of form.
Get amongst the dead men and as we saw in our relegation season it is difficult to get out. Palace, Scunny and the Blades will be looking at our form and be thinking that if the get a couple of decent results they can catch us.
You may well ask what I am doing posting at this time of day, people of a certain age need to get up during the night so I though I would watch some cricket. That is not much better than Boro, I just hope the rugby against Scotland turns out better.
I was embarassed to be there,but that could easily have been the scoreline at Millwall after the first half if it hadn't been for as you say Davies.
Grounds and Hines are terrible, they havn't a clue how to defend. I am sat there watching knowing what ball is coming where it is going but they can't see it,they haven't a clue.
Haas is rumoured to be worse than these two and is never going to play so these to are going to have to wise up quickly,three out of the next four are at home. We need points on the board quickly,then four out of the next five are away. Even Scunthorpe who usually leak four a game at home managed to shut out Swansea. They are now creeping up on us.
Cant blame Tony,he can only put out what hes got and he cant bring anybody in. Steve Gibson has been annonymous at the riverside for ages,makes you think he only appointed Mowbray because he knows he is a fans favourite and the fans wont turn on him when losing.
Its about time Gibson came out of hiding and told us what exactly is going on at the club!!
Forgot to say good luck to the youths today.
A Vickerâs virgin writes...
Master Samuel and I ventured north from our South-Coast hideaway for our first match of the season. The omens were promising, we were given free tickets to get into the ground but things went downhill from there.
My mind went back to last yearâs fixture between a club who had lost their Premiership status and their way (Reading) against a recently demoted Boro. I genuinely pitied Reading and their support last time out, oh how the roles have reversed! And that is where we must grab whatever crumbs of comfort there are. If we can hang-on and re-organise then may-be, just may-be the seeds of recovery can be planted. But not on that performance!
AV, your summation is damning but correct and I wonât dwell on individual performances too much. I was disappointed however that Zemmama was not put in a position where he would actually see the ball more regularly than he actually he did, surely a place in the âholeâ beckons.
Onwards and upwards and see you all at Fratton Park. Any chance of a feature on Jarkko along the lines of our Banik Ostrava colleague?
**AV writes: Welcome aboard. I've passed Jarkko onto a news reporter and the club PR people. Let's see if we can get a ball rolling.
The situation is grim - and it's a situation we're stuck with.
Forget form, the rest of the season will come down to grabbing points wherever we can and hoping that there are 3 clubs out there who manage fewer.
A couple of weeks ago it looked as if we would be fine because other clubs were being good to us, but there's still at least one ticket to league 1 to be allocated, and some of our rivals are starting to make a fight of it.
A couple of weeks ago I thought the situation was simple and that our destiny was in our own hands. Now it clearly isn't so simple and I'm not sure we have the capacity to stay out of the bottom 3.
Derby on Tuesday? We don't just need to win it for the three points, we also need to win it to get back into the fight. At Reading it looked like we had already given up, and that's one thing I can't accept from my club.
Its a simple equation isn't it.
Derby, Watford, Leicester, Barnsley, Coventry and Doncaster at home
Away from home forget it, inform Leicester, Ipswich, Portsmouth, Hull City and Cardiff (alarmingly all better than Reading)oh and Sheffield United.
So basically to get past the 50 point mark we are going to need to win four or five of those home games, no easy task when we have won only six at home all season.
The folly of selling Wheater came home to roost with Bates injury; yes we should have sold him to Bolton, but couldn't we have put a clause in for him to be loaned back to us until the end of the season.
Loans now Mogga, that defence is nowhere near good enough to keep us up.
Boro will NOT go down. Three of the four teams below us are so poor that even if we try as hard as we are at the moment to prove me wrong they will always be there to help us out. Young teams like the Boro will have good days (Forest) and bad days (Reading). Be Strong Brothers !
Feel sorry for the fans who had to see this, it's bad enough watching at the Riverside at times. But that was an alarmingly weak 11 put out there, it just shows that even without Arca (who most fans wouldn't have in the team on a week by week basis) and McDonald, we are horribly exposed with a team full of academy boys.
Mogga has a tough task keeping us in this division, especially with rival relegation teams winning. I don't know what he will do. He has bought Haas who apparently is nowhere near ready for this standard, and it makes me wonder why we bought him in the first place.
The injuries keep coming, but its no good moaning. We have to get on with it. Forget Arsenal Vs Barcelona on Tuesday evening. Your club needs everyone of you. Maybe Boro should open the gates for free...
Where we are today is all down to winning that meaningless tin pot at Cardiff 7 years ago. Since then the club has over extended itself and is now paying the ultimate price.
Carling Cup = Europe = Buying over paid prima donnas = where we are today and still sliding
No wonder the likes of Holloway and Houllier are more concerned about staying up than winning a cup because finishing 17th and above in the Premier League is far more notewothy and profitable than winning the Carling Cup and even the FA Cup these days.
I fear that Boro are now doing a "Luton", another club that slid into obscurity after winning THAT tin pot trophy.
AV's assessment is right on the money.
I read Mogga saying he was planning to pull clear of relegation asap so he could blood some youngsters. Worryingly complacent - chickens duly ennumerated. One match later, I fear I've been proven right. Our rivals show signs of some revival while we're imploding.
Although Preston and Sheff Utd look doomed, there is still the third slot. Significantly and ominously, Boro are 3rd bottom of the form table while Palace are mid-table and Scunthorpe top half. In short, with just one fortuitous win in the last 6, we're deteriorating just as they're recovering.
Worse, that was mostly happening while Bates was available and Davies made his fleeting impact. The squad was already anorexic - it is now an amputee.
We find ourselves with just one goalkeeper - who risks being distracted by his homework. Our residual defenders are very inexperienced and, lacking mental resilience and physical presence, are almost certainly not good enough in the first place. AV's right: just as we're entering the crucial last dozen games, relegation looks more likely.
Everybody thought we were selling Wheater and O'Neill to raise funds to bring in new faces. What happened? Nothing. Then we find that, despite the fire sale, we haven't even a few bob for loanies.
Anybody could see that we needed a GK; a commanding CH; a MF who was either creative or had pace; and somebody with physical presence up front and preferably a goal threat. Two out of those four would have shored things up nicely.
It was obvious even to trained chimps that, if Steele got injured, we would be in deep do-do - and he needed a rest anyway. Even with Bates available, it was clear we were weak in defence. All those chickens that Mogga prematurely counted came home to roost yesterday (nicely mixed metaphor!).
Meanwhile the hierarchy have been notable by their absence and utter silence. They are standing by, listening to the death rattle of this squad. SG: you might own the shares but this is OUR club, not yours. Back in '86, you portrayed a vision of Boro as a community club - what happened to you?
If we go down, we now know we have no money, insufficient income and administration would cost us 10 points. Unlike in '86, I can see few players on which to base a recovery and we'd lose the best because, in administration, they all get frees. Where would that leave us?
Leeds' predicament a few years ago looks positively rosy alongside that prospect. Shame on you, SG and KL.
'Teesside will get the team it can afford.' Is this it? Is that how hard-up Teeside is? If the current Boro mess is a a measure of the area's poverty, perhaps the club should do a Wimbledon/MK Dons and move somwhere more affluent. Baghdad Boro?
Yes there are some bad teams down the bottom, however at this time in the season they are not going to be doing us many favours.
Fifty points would see us safe, certainly PNE and Sheff Utd will not reach it, Scunthorpe and Palace at a push might get close.
We now have three games in the next four at home, Derby, Watford and Leicester, I would be looking for two wins and a draw here; another seven points should set us up for the final push, Barnsley, Coventry and Doncaster at home.
We really do have some poor teams at home to play, who are equally desperate and nervous; we need to go for the throat from the whistle, and none of this 1-0 going into the last five minutes, because we know what happens then .....don't we!
Like it or not we cannot continue with Grounds and Hines at the heart of the defence. We can get away with one ,marginally Hines, but not two of them both are simply not good enough,hard enough for this league.Why not try Williams at centre back? He is more of footballer than the other two put together.
I think Haas is a lost cause and that is without seeing him!!Otherwise he would be in the team.Why didn't Tavares play on Saturday? We are too open and easy to play against.That means we should have two holding midfielders to offer further protection to the defence.
Michaend you if we keep making elementary mistakes and by experienced players, eg McMahon and Bailey its going to be a long slog to the end of the season.
I have been saying this for a few weeks now. Accept the fact our team is rubbish.We will not progress anywhere but to the First Division with the players we have.
Get used to this,I put on another post that every few weeks we will put in a great performance to raise hopes and then the next week back to our usual inept selves and it happened and will again.
TM is not the answer,indeed Alex Ferguson could not do anything with the squad we have.
The problem and the solution is at the top. Steve Gibson needs to spend or go!!
However it is his club and he has the right to run it as he sees fit and I doubt if there are many buyers if any who would come on for us.
"Sandy said...Gibson and Lamb - oh what have you done !!!"
Remind me who they are again, will you please?
David of Redcar -
I have to agree that we will not go down. I've said it before.
Yesterday was, however, a shocking and embarrassing result. I turned the tv off when their 5th went in. I was scared of what the final score was going to be!
Our support for the academy players should be 100%. They will only get better and remain the only realistic future for the club. If they fail we have major problems.
The Team Is A disgrace not one player deserves to wear that shirt. Waiting now for Gibson And Lamb coming out and saying we didnt see this coming part 2.
Back to reality: why did we think Mowbray was the one? He got lucky with his past clubs except for Celtic. Megson any day of the week,would of kept us going. Very bad mistake by the board who employed him!
If people remember my prediction Is coming true.The money has gone and wouldnt put It past the board that we will be going bust very soon. Was It worth paying millions for the past players of yesterday? Where are there now?Sitting on the wages the club paid them!
My Post of last night seems to have gone missing?
Anyway the gist of it was "Blind Faith" and the silence of Gibson and Lamb. Then whether Mowbray gets sick and decides to walk away from the shambles the twosome created whilst they set about disenfranchising and disengaging from their customer base several years ago.
I also proferred that we probably can't afford any Loanees and we may end up with Pearsy pulling his boots back on. If we can afford to beg steal or borrow a Keeper then what about Zaluska from Celtic (unlikely) or Adriano Basso from Wolves who has a lot of experience at this level and is behind Hennesey and Hahnemenn in their pecking order.
Regarding the CB problem Haas can't be that bad can he? And regardless of that if Williams is fit he must start in the middle of defence against Derby before we destroy whats left of Hines and Grounds - especially if we have young Ripley in goal.
I'd also be inclined to move Tayls to LB to try and muster as much experience as we can at the back. Its not an indictment of Bennett but we need some serious defending at the moment until we steady the ship.
Midfield needs Robson and Bailey in the middle defending in front of the back line, I'd be inclined to go with one up front with another three across the middle perhaps with Emnes, Zemmama or even Kink playing in the hole. If we don't stop conceding immediately then we are going one way.
NikeBoro -
This is not the team Teesside can afford, there are plenty of teams in the premiership with far lower attendances than Boro.
This is the team the CLUB can afford after wasting so much money on the likes of Alves, Mido, Aliadiere, Digard, Emnes (he is back to his enigmatic norm) etc and getting us relegated.
Anyway a word of praise for the Marie Curie shirt idea to both the club and Ramsdens.
Then I started thinking why not put Mary Celeste on the shirt to represent our defence - adrift, all at sea and no one on board.
It is a very young group of players and the inexperience must lead to confusion and hesitation
Where have you all been since Eindhoven?
Gibson and Lamb could have invited CVs from proven managers after Eindhoven, when McClown decided to go. After that final, Boro could have had a pick of many good managers who'd have been happy to come here and build on our success. However, those to blood idiots chose another idiot to be manager..............and the rest as they say is history.
That performance yesterday is only one more catastrophy in the slipery slope since Eindhoven. Get used to it boys and girls, this is the futire.
45 years plus supporter, now a non match goer.
Decided to delve into the blog archives and randomly picked sept 07 and by pure luck it was KL interview which was printed in FMTTM which was generally about declining fans (we no longer got 30,000) how he just splashed out £6m on a truly fantastic signing Mido and the sacking of century and Bernie Slaven because of negative comments which basically were the truth.
Pity KL and SG didnt take more notice of the fans and their comments back then and we wouldn't be in the mess we are now!!
I have read so much about us not being good enough for so long now it is starting to bore me a little....
TM has done what he can with the squad he has available to him, end of! Yes we can all argue until the cows come home about the money wasted and the mercenaries that have played for the club in the past (and present), but please do me a favour and FORGET ABOUT it and move on!!!.
We are where we are; we are now at a pivotal moment in the clubs history, League 1 or another year in the Championship trenches⊠Whatever the outcome we should support the team through the good times and the bad (Thick and Thin?).
I keep hearing that the Boro belongs to the supporters and not SG, (i.e. I have supported the Boro for 45 years + and am now a non match goer). Myself have supported the team for over 20 years but could only afford a season ticket THIS year, if the team really does belong to the fans it is time that that WE got behind them and gave it our all.
YES I would like (love) for SG to come forward and tell us how it really is, but until then I will support the team and regardless of the league we are in next season I fully intend to be back as a Season Ticket holder.!!
Is this the worst Boro team of the century? I do not not know as I have only seen them once in a full match so far this season. What I have seen is some very good Championship teams playing good exciting attacking football so I do not understand comments that this is a poor league.
I thought the Boro were safe as the four teams below them appeared to be poorer than the Boro, but with Scunthorpe's win against Swansea I now have my doubts to this assessment of the situation.
Not having seen Haas but wondering why he never made a first team appearance for his German Club, leads me to the conclusion he will not be a regular member of the Boro:s relegation battling team. So how come we bought him?
Some one must have recommended him to Tony as Tony could not have seen much of him actually playing. This sort of scouting nonsense is one of the reasons we find our selves in now, when you look back at Maccarone, Alves, Emnes, Mido, to name just a few of the notables who should never have been signed.
The scouting team at the Boro must take a huge slice of the blame for these disasters.Where to now, God only knows, as I have given up all hope for this season, and now looking to a miracle to keep us afloat.
I seem to recall when our Chief Scout Don Mackay left (Circa summer 2007) being told that we were building the best Scouting network we ever had, with coverage through agents right across Europe.
What happened? Where is all this prodigious talent that our crack team of uber Scouts were about to unearth? Alves, Emnes, Haas?
Where are all those with the Rose Tints who were all waving their collective foam hands (interesting to see how many of them have stuck around!) and bought into the new religion from Gibson and Lamb of "For us or against us"?
When Bernie was being made "persona non grata" at the Riverside (along with Century) us Soothsayers were branded as non-believers and deliberately undermining the club. As history has subsequently unfolded unfortunately Bernie and the Soothsayers were right and now the general with Elton sized Rose Tints on has disappeard behind the sounds of silence.
Right now those fans that warned and were ignored and are still standing united amongst the mass of red plastic have a right to be told that we have something or nothing.
Times are tough and if its nothing then so be it. If we have nothing to spend then perhaps we actually need to go down to give the kids a chance at a level they can handle and mature into the Phoenix to hopefully bring us back up again.
Survival is meaningless if it means another 12 months of selling and struggling in the Championship. Come on Steve and Keith, Mogga can't make a Silk purse out of a Pig's Ear!
If an interview comes during the Summer on Radio "Rose Tinted" Brownlee it will be seen as a cynical attempt at selling Season Tickets. Its now or never, don't say you didn't see it coming again, tell us what to expect and what not to hold out for.
"Hansolo20x said...I keep hearing that the Boro belongs to the supporters...i.e. 'I have supported the Boro for 45 years+ and am now a non match goer'...Myself, I have supported the team for over 20 years...I will support the team and regardless of the league we are in next season I fully intend to be back as a Season Ticket holder!!"
Okay, Han, on behalf of the 40+ years brigade, why don't we all agree to meet in another 20 years and see how YOU feel then.
Wow, what a reaction...a few must have been waiting for a thumping like this.
This was actually the score I was expecting (not including our two) against Forest.
There's no doubt we're a Mowbray style team now. He's managed to introduce his West Brom standard pretty quickly. We've been involved in two seven goal thrillers and one five goal thriller in a couple of weeks. Might as well get used to it.
That's 15 goals conceded in the last five matches... a recent average of three a match! I've had a quick flick back through his record to date. 21 games, 7 wins, 9 defeats and 5 draws, so his win percentage is similar to Strachan's.
But the goals are flying in compared with that era, 30 goals scored and 30 conceded.. Only four times have we kept a clean sheet, but on only three occasions have we failed to score...just think about that for a second, we only fail to score on average every 7th game. Think how that compares to the last three or four years.
So basically we're the same, but we see more goals at matches these days. I think we'll stay up...just.
Work's a bit slow. I was so shocked with the one blank in every seven games stat I thought I'd check Strachan's record - 17 blanks in 44 games, or roughly every 2.5 games we would not score. With the same strikers!
Pity we can't defend for toffee.
Gibson and Lamb oh what have you done ......
Are these guys still around ..........
Why are they not takling ............
What have you done ...........
RIP Middlesbrough Football Club
AV said:"I'LL KEEP this short."
Me, too. Or better still I will just forget the result (but bring in Max Haas).
Up the Boro!
As a life long Boro fan and a resident of Reading for nearly 15 years, this was a very, very hard match to watch.
We've had some great games against Reading in recent years at the Mad Stad (remember the first ever reading Premiership game!!) but never have I left any ground with such a feeling of utter despair for our footballing future.
We were devoid of talent, skill, passion, belief, & physical presence. It is hard to write these words but let's be honest, Championship football next season looks like a dream.
What did irritate me at the match on Saturday was the constant singing about Mogga and how lucky we are to have him and we're dancing to the Mogga beat.
He's a legend and has given him best years to the club, but we can't paper over cracks and believe it will be OK just coz Mogga's here. If anyone knows the importance of the club to the area and what we've been through, it's Mogga.
However, that sentiment will only wash with the Teesside boys and the best ones have gone. The ones that are left are surrounded by dross and we have been an interesting sporting experiment over the last six months that will answer the question 'Could the top SPL teams cut it in the Premiership?' - no, not even in the Championship.
Gibson has been a great chairman - no questions - but we have to find quality from somewhere. Academy? Not sure but the highly paid dross brought in by Strachan has to be unloaded soon.
We can't criticise Gibbo as he has dipped into his pocket every week to balance the books and we/he doesn't want another 1986. Fine balance between giving us the glory days back and running the business well to ensure we have a future.
You never know though, the Thai consortium that bought the steel works at Redcar might like the look of the Boro and dip into their pockets further??
Saddest part is that I'm going to get so much grief from neighbours, friends and work mates alike and i never would have thought that Reading would have bragging rights over the Boro.
AV said:
"But a poor defence too. The central unit was disjointed. Frightened. Inept. Physically and mentally weak."
Boro-Russ said:
"The Team Is A disgrace not one player deserves to wear that shirt."
Yes, it was a very poor performance indeed, but we need to keep a sense of balance about our comments right now. Inasmuch as the team themselves will know they were poor, there is little point in airing our pain and frustration to a young team who desperately need confidence before Tuesday and are, in my view, the best lads we have available.
Or do supporters feel that supporting the current team is not what is needed right now?
Firstly, in an effort to restore some balance and proportion to the debate, I will say that I thought Seb Hines played remarkably well, especially considering what he was up against.
The areas into which Reading were allowed to hoof the ball were regularly huge, and Seb was pulled all over the park in consequence. I can recall six occasions at least when Seb used muscle and brain to snuff out serious dangers.
I can't recall his particular errors causing us serious problems either, but the memory is not what it was, especially when I want to blot out my trauma!
It seemed to me that Nicky Bailey was playing further forward than he has of late, and the inexperienced centre backs were massively missing his assistance.
The midfield was a little better when Rhys came on, but was arguably the weakest link as a unit for much of Saturday, often just bypassed by long passing.
Reading were swift and strong, and our full backs were indeed struggling, although McMahon also did some good work on Saturday, mostly going forwards, though.
If Joe Bennett becomes chary about using his great gifts to move quickly into attack, which is likely to be because of dented confidence, then the Tayls/Bennett thing stops being effective, and that was the case to an extent against Swansea, QPR and Reading.
Relying on junior goalkeepers also causes central defensive problems, because you need, above all else as a central defender, to know where you and your partner are and where the other defenders are, including the goalkeeper.
McMahon was trying to do too much on the right, and Bennett and Taylor were in a bit of a muddle against Kebe, so Grounds especially got into a sequence of flusters.
So, a bit of a mess on Saturday for sure, but what on earth can come out of hanging our young lads out to dry? I am sure Mogga will be waiting till this morning, and trying to allow his team to do a Southgate - i.e. learn the lessons that are there to be learned, and even give credit where it is due.
It is what it is, he will say, and Tuesday will be what it will be. Wrecking anybody's confidence will not be part of his plan for staying in this division, I am quite sure.
Simon -
I was always one who didnt want Mogga to be appointed because he would be on a hiding to nothing.
My views changed because we needed someoone the fans could identify with, someone they give more time to do the job following two very disappointing spells under GS1 and GS2, they both tried hard and did their best but to no avail.
GS2 did us no favours other than walking away without compensation. Dont forget GS2's buys were but a fraction of what was spent by The Unholy Trinity, they amount to two thirds of Alves - that's his body minus two legs and a head, about right as he couldnt score.
But we have been left in a right mess and no mistake and I have to face Derby fans whose club will basically be safe if they win tomorrow night.
I can understand all the gloom but hey, this is how youngsters earn their experience.
And besides, our mission post-Strachan is survival, nothing else. And were still on track.
This will work out fine, and the squad will be better off to focus on new (play off) missions next year.
Up the Boro.
We got hammered, these things happen, move on.
Simon you are spot on with everything you said. I was at the game too and some of the fans' mentality in not seeing what's in front of them is frightening.
I live in London, and can't help thinking that for those that don't live in the Teesside bubble, we can see a little more clearly and objectively than people who do.
I pray to God it works out with Mogga, but from what I'm seeing (and saw on Saturday particularly) is that there are players who can't even do the basics. I mean what do they do in training every week?
Throw in the Maxi Haas debacle and yeah I'm going to question the management.
Some of the comments here are unbelivable. Probably our first off day since Mogga took over, and suddenly panic!
"Let's be honest, Championship football next season looks like a dream. "
"RIP Middlesbrough Football Club"
"I have given up all hope for this season, and now looking to a miracle to keep us afloat. "
"If we go down, we now know we have no money, insufficient income and administration would cost us 10 points."
Those were my particular favourites. Let's see where we are on Wednesday morning. How about giving them the chance to redeem themselves before immediately jumping into the lifeboats?
Think thats the result most people expected but not the scoreline or the performance.
Having just watched the goals on the BBC I must say in my opinion they were awful goals to concede no matter who we were playing. Rank bad defending all round.
If something is not done soon to stop the rot which is setting in quickly now we will drop back into the bottom three. The warning signs have been there for a number of weeks and Scunthorpe are the first to break rank and win a match.
If we drop into the bottom three we will not get out of it with this squad.
It looks to me that the club are quite happy to drop into League One, more excuses to cut cloth accordingly one feels.
If the club, manager and players can't see that relegation is on the cards they are either blind or incompetent or both.
I said a while back that the whole feeling at the end of last season and even the close season reminded me of the whole mid 80's early 90's
I do think that worse is yet to come, the clubs receipts are falling and this retrenching points to a rainy day fund long since spent.
I feel sorry for the loyal fans and Tony Mowbray and those in the team that try.
There is nowhere to hide anymore, the cracks in the organisation, whether its the board that is so out of touch and in some bunker somewhere, the training facilities or coaching that seem to destroy so many fit players or the sub championship marketting.
Whether we stay up or go down this season is largely irrelevent. We have too much access to information, we are too well informed and too cynical to be fooled any longer.
You cant blame the loss of the foam handers for this, the vast majority of fans have seen this coming since Robson's days as the on field success only really sustained the stadium, the fundamentals have long trailed in its wake.
I expected a tonking at some point, like a previous poster I thought Forest would do it, we may scrape through and survive, but mismanagement is the one and only reason we are here, from the rubbish Erea kits, the three points, the woeful ticket fiascos, all the on field success cant hide that underneath its the same badly run business
AV -
any news of a possible replacement for Steele? They must have had some names in mind ever since Coyne got injured.
Please send Uncle Eric to Rockcliffe Park (but gently I don't want to see the old man injured).
Up the Boro!
**AV writes: Paylor has been despatched to see Mogga with his I-Spy Book of Goalkeepers.
The slide started pre Eindhoven but it will stop. Whether in this division or the one below it will stop.
We cannot undo what has gone before and no matter what people say it isnt any one persons fault.
But we are Boro fans and another match looms and that is against my local team. It is imperative we play a pressing game so that Robbie savage can't stroll through the game like he did at Pride Park. Give him time and space and he will pull the strings.
The difficulty is that the back five is starting to unravel and there is no quick fix. So we have to keep the ball and play up the pitch, play the game in their half. If we keep dropping into our own area we will invite problems.
I'm with BoroPhil on this - we need to get a grip.
We know that ours is a fragile and unbalanced team. We know that we've been struggling towards the bottom of the Championship all season and ought to accept that we will be beaten, sometimes badly.
We've been better on almost every footballing front since TM took over (entertainment, goalscoring, accrument of points) and as humbling as the defeat to Reading may have been we are not doomed and are still more likely to be in this division next season than the four clubs below us.
The general mood on the board swings wildy at times. You'd think we'd have accepted our inconsistency by now. Chances are we'll beat Derby on tomorrow - it's our nature.
⢠Since September, Middlesbrough have won only once at home against a team outside of the current bottom four (1-0 v Cardiff on 11 December).
⢠They have now let in 52 league goals this season - two more than they conceded throughout the whole of last term.
â¢Middlesbrough fans are 86.2% more dissatisfied than they were this time 6 years ago
Anlov said: "our mission post-Strachan is survival ... were still on track.' On what is that based?"
With one win in the last six games, Boro are 3rd bottom of the form table. Relegation place. Meanwhile Palace are mid-table and Scunthorpe are even higher. So we we're already heading for a relegation place while those below us show signs of some recovery. Even worse, we've now lost our GK, having just lost our only two CBs with any experience.
The only track we're on is for League 1.
**AV writes: I've been number-crunching some stats, looking at the remaining fixtures and reading some trends for tomorrow's paper which suggest overwise. Points per game over the last six, eight, 12 and 20 games all suggest Boro have enough to escape while Preston and Sheff Utd are all but gone and Derby and Coventry are plummeting.
I think Boro need 14 points and four wins if Boro beat Derby they will look good bets for survival. Of course, if they don't....
Nigel Reeve said: 'We got hammered, these things happen, move on.' He's right.
Unfortunately these things happen much more in failing teams and, as opposed to being a mere blip, this appears to be the case with the Boro. What's more, such things are often the cause of relegation.
My fear is that, with hindsight, we will see the Reading match as the watershed and the 'moving on' might take the form of relegation.
BoroPhil says: 'Probably our first off day since Mogga took over'. If Burton, Swansea, QPR and drawing at home to be bottom club weren't off-days - and that's just the last two months! - then your standards must be very low.
Stat Man John said:
"Middlesbrough fans are 86.2% more dissatisfied"
Only 86.2%? well at least thats some good news!
Andy R said: 'We've been better on almost every footballing front since TM took over'
I partly agree: Boro are certainly scoring more goals and are mostly more entertaining. However the real stats are against you. Mogga's results are very little better than Stricken's.
Andy also said: 'The general mood on the board swings wildy at times ... Chances are we'll beat Derby tomorrow.' Hopefully you're right and I'll be ecstatic if we do.
However my judgement is not just a knee-jerk reaction to Reading. My overall assessment is not based on this season nor even the last three disastrous years. I'm looking at what has happened in the six or so years since the infamous 'Teesside will get the team it can afford' statement.
As Ian Gill pointed out earlier, that's just not true - Teesside can afford much better than this. Even with a poor team, our attendances are the 10th highest in the Championship. Yet we're amongst the most impoverished teams in the division.
The only reason for that is many years of gross mismanagement. Through appointments of a succession of inept managers, a fortune has been wasted. We're now left with an empty kitty, excessive running costs and zero credibility at the bank. One good result will do nothing to change that considered long-term judgement.
If we won half the remaining games and drew most of the rest, finishing well clear of relegation, I would be relieved (and surprised and impressed!) but still see no significant change. I would be no more confident long-term.
Without a dramatic change in executive management and a lot more financial backing, I would still expect another struggle.
I can't believe I'm having the temerity to argue with the mighty AV - this feels like sacrilege! Mind you, he said I was wrong - so, what the hell, iconos duly clasted.
In his reply to my 5.52 posting, AV said he'd been 'number-crunching some stats ... which suggest overwise.' (he meant 'otherwise' but, with my typing skills, I daren't be picky). In AV's assessment, the stats showed Boro to be good bets for survival.
I don't see it this way. This is an extract from the 6-game form table I quoted:
P W D GD Pts PPG
10th Scunthorpe 6 3 1 -1 10 1.67
14th C. Palace 6 2 1 -1 7 1.17
22nd Middlesbro 6 1 1 -7 4 0.67
That seems clear evidence to me that, based on recent form, while those below us are showing some recovery, Boro are heading for League 1.
Vic
I will try and feed comments form the Sheep loving Radio Derby. Wellington boots extra as is talcum powder.
Channel 4 have today said that Middlesbrough FC GROUND is owned by the state and not the club, whats going on!!
One wonders what S G has put into the club. Was the money put into the club (losses) offset against tax in respect of his other companies.!! I don,t know !! but could it be that the money invested in the club has been provided by the tax system!! And that loophole has now been closed ,this may explain why no further monies are available.
Please help me Mr Lamb and disprove what I SUSPECT!!
"BoroPhil says: 'Probably our first off day since Mogga took over'. If Burton, Swansea, QPR and drawing at home to be bottom club weren't off-days - and that's just the last two months! - then your standards must be very low."
Burton I couldn't care less about and we should have put the game well past them before they smash and grabbed us, Swansea we played well, and QPR are the best team by far in the division and we matched them 1st half.
You need to stop being so short-sighted and look at performances, look where Mogga is taking the club (League one, ho ho), look at the style of football he's trying to play. In that respect, we've advanced light years.
If you (and others) are so sure we are doomed, we are 9-1 to get relegated at Stan James. Knock yourself out, make a fortune.
http://www.oddschecker.com/football/english/championship/relegation
So Guzan prefered Hull to us,weve come along way havent we,
Hey go after Carlo Nash
I am sitting in my study here 12 000 miles away from the Middlesbrough. You can not get any further away otherwise you are on the way back. Yet after reading all the latest comments I still feel the hurt that all the Boro fans are feeling, even maybe more so, as I can not go down to the Riverside and lend my support to the team.
If we lose to Derby I can not see us surviving from the dreaded relegation spectre. I am still convinced our situation is caused by Strachan:s demolition of the confidence of the players especially the young players from the Academy, with with outrageous statement about men not boys,and other stupid comments he made during his tenure.
So Mogga's main task is to instill this confidence back into the players, a task that is not easy to perform in the short term.
That being said we have goal scorers in the squad who given the right service can score goals. So it boils down to the defence tightening up and letting in less than we score, simple logic, after all football is a simple game. So lets get at them and beat Derby County.
Incidentally I have just watched The Damned United, the story of Brian Clough's love hate relationship with Don Revie and Leeds United. Having played with Brian in his earlier years I found it most interesting viewing and recommend it to the Boro fans,
Finally, we're just like Arsenal. Down to playing a kid keeper at the most pivotal time of the season. Sure Voycheck Chesney can shine against imperious Barcelona in the CL, but let's see him do it on a cold Tuesday in Middlesbrough...
**AV writes: I prefer your spelling of his name.
Ive been told by an insider that after ten games next season, no matter what division we will be in, we will be in administration. So all you fans in the pubs every game who call up with your rants, at local radio, you've won.
**AV writes: It'll be alright... the other yonks old rumours are finally coming true as well so the Viduka injury insurance money and Cleveland Cables buy out will save us.
Nikeboro
Our current situation is that we probably have the highest wage bill in the championship.
What frightens me is the comment by Weatherston, no doubt our glorious leader will shed some light.
I've not had anything to say on the football as I rarely get to see anything of Boro unless I'm prepared to stay up until 1.30 on a sunday morning to see the latest defensive collapse.
Anyway, I was initially sceptical about Weatherston's claim but it's true that Channel 4's Dispatches programme did say that the government owns the Freehold of Middlesbrough FC - which usually means they own the land and all buildings on it.
Is this something new? If so when did this occur? or was it always the case? Maybe it's time Mr Gibson got out of his fox hole to say a few words.
**AV writes: When the stadium was built Boro agreed to become one of the first projects on what was supposed to be a prestige scheme led by the then Teesside Development Corporation.
Part of the deal was that the TDC would provide the land, put in the infrastructure and roads etc and pick up some of the bill for the groundwork for the stadium. That's why it came if for just £16m.
For planning, political and tax break reasons the entire site was controlled by the TDC. Because of that Boro never owned the land but took it on a long lease at a peppercorn rent - £1 a year has been mentioned. But they do own the stadium and always have. It is registered in the accounts as an asset.
When the TDC was would up its assets and legal obligations were transferred to a residual body, English Estates, who presumably now control the lease. I presume this is the full extent of the state's involvment.
NikeBoro -
I'm in complete agreement about your long-term complaints of how the club has been (mis)managed.
I made pretty sure to say the the "mood" of the board swings wildy, not single people out. I suppose you when you read about 30 comments in one go they all meld into one.
I disagree, however, when you say that "the real stats are against you" in response to my assertion that we've been better under TM.
The real stats (ie results) are in TM's favour too.
Strachan picked up 17 points from his 18 games in charge this year at a goal difference of -10. Mowbray has picked up 20 points from 16 games at a goal difference of 0.
Not a significant improvement, but if my maths is right that is an improvement of 14 points over a 46 game season.
That's it for the stats, but if you also take into account all the other mitigating factors that Mowbray has had to deal with (not his own players, no money, transfers of Wheater and O'Neil, the injuries to McManus and Bates) then it adds up to a much improved picture in my opinion.
And thats before we even come onto entertainment.
BoroPhil -
'look at performances ... the style of football he's trying to play. In that respect, we've advanced light years.'
I can see what BoroPhil's getting at and I agree to a large extent. As I said earlier in reply to Andy R: 'Boro are certainly scoring more goals and are mostly more entertaining.'
I think TM was a good appointment, one of the best of the SG era and the best available. Despite having precious little to work with, I too can see progress in some areas. My beef is with SG and KL, not Mogga. I see him as the victim in all this - along with us.
As football is a results business, that's where I'm coming from. As I also said in reply to Andy R: 'the real stats are against you. Mogga's results are very little better than Stricken's.'
My real concerns are deeper and much longer term and to do with the fundamental health of the club. The fact that we're accepting losing to a little League 2 club - recently nonleague! - is evidence of how far our expectations have had to plummet, even since the start of the season.
I, for one, refuse to blithely accept our current predicament. Even without the backing of a sugar daddy, I am clear what is an affordable, sustainable level for the club.
Teesside can afford much better than this and Boro, at least, should be a Championship power.
I have no intention of being 'realistic' about this - that's giving up. Inaction = agreement = complicity. If the worst comes to the worst, I will not be one of those who inadvertently are indirectly guilty through passive acceptance.
I can back the team and support the players while complaining about the powers-that-be and agitating for executive change.
Yup, it would be good if some light could be shone by AV and Uncle Eric on Weatherston's report of what Channel Four are supposed to have alleged.
It seems the Scouse vultures are circling too with Damien Comolli allegedly trying to start the asset stripping by trying to nab Cameron Park.
Can't we try to 'sweeten the deal'? They can have Park if they take Boyd and one other non-performing high earner too?
Just looking at the divide in posts that's getting more stark by the result between the 'too good to go down' foam handers and the rest.
What strikes most of all is how eerily reminiscent it is of this time in our relegation season from The Prem.
It might be instructive to look at a few back numbers from around that time, AV.
I must say, though, I don't buy the 'look at the performances' argument - even from Mogga. Last time I looked, there was no column for that on the league table. The results are pretty well all that matter now - however they're got.
Agree with BoroPhil, though, that we need to see what happens this evening - in our result and others - before we get too set in our ways. This is a big evening.
I've had an exchange with AV - even dared to contradict! - about interpretation of form tables and attempting to predict final positions.
I'd been comparing our recent form with those below us. As Scunthorpe and Palace have showed some recovery while we've deteriorated, I'm fearing we'll end up in the 3rd relegation slot.
However I hadn't looked at the teams above us and AV has pointed out that Coventry and Derby have been dropping like stones.
Relegation could be decided by who plummets fastest and whether any of Boro, Coventry or Derby can 'pull out of their dive'.
Makes tonight's Derby game interesting doesn't it? Bit of a gripper
**AV writes: If current form is sustained (I know it never is, that is the problems with 'form' and statistics) then Boro would stay up and so would Scunthorpe and the third relegation spot would be taken by either Derby or Coventry.
We have a chace to reinforce those trends tonight.
Hi all been away, Long hard road ahead think it will go to the wire.
I see on Sky Sports Boyd to Forest with goalkeeper Smith to Boro.
In reply to my 5.52 post, AV reckoned Boro need 14 points to survive. I agree - but can't see where we're going to get them from.
I'm working on the basis that the GK crisis will be remedied soon but, with key defenders out for weeks, there's no alternative to our colander defence until April.
Predicting results is notoriously fraught - that way lies madness. What's more, bearing in mind we couldn't even beat the bottom club at home, it's especially diffiult with unpredictable Boro. But here goes anyway.
With a 6th former in goal, Derby will smell blood and seize what is a huge opportunity. Portsmouth are top of the form table. Last game at Cardiff is likely to be a promotion/relegation decider. With five wins in the last eight, Burnley are going very well. Hull are similarly high in the form table. All of them away, I expect very little from any of these games - 2 points at best and possibly zero.
At the other extreme, Sheff Utd seem doomed and Coventry are collapsing - there should be wins to be had there. Barnsley aren't much better than us so, at home, there should a decent chance of three points.
Depending on how the above games pan out, that leaves us needing three to seven points from the Watford, Leicester and Ipswich games. Three points: yes; Seven points: I can't see it.
I suspect a great deal depends on who we get in goal and the quick return of experienced players.
Oh how we have fallen, having to get rid of Boyd to bring in another Championship clubs second/third choice GK.
The club is past being a joke, the joke is not funny anymore.
Thanks for clearing up the stadium ownership issue AV. Good job you did mind, its not like MFC might step forward at anytime is it?
I'm a bit young to remember but, how does the present compare with the state of things in 1985?
AV, one to ask uncle Eric.
**AV writes: There was a real stench of death around the club then and also around the whole town and the wider game too: debt, mass unemployment, falling crowds, poor policing, board romm paralysis, crumbling stadiums, hooliganism... it wasn't a great time.
Now I don't think we are worse placed as a club - I don't beluieve we are on the edge of a financial implosion for instance - but having fallen from such dizzy heights in such a short side it maybe stings more now.
AV, I agree this is nothing compared to the 1980's.
People don't understand how close we were to going out of total existence then. Now we have a new stadium, a training centre and a hotel (?) etc.
Back in 1986 we did not have a training ground (Mogga & co trained on parks), very old fashioned (but charming) and rotten ground in a middle of houses, parking problems etc. And most seriously no vision or money - and were literally bankrupt.
I have no fear of us going into liquidation this time. Up the Boro!
This season I had written off because I never really got going at Middlesbrough," Boyd told BBC Radio Nottingham.
What a disgraceful statement to make.
AV, forget to mention we did not have internet nor untypical Boro in 1980's. That was terrible (luckily I got the Sports Gazette posted every week)! I was also at Hartlepool to see Boro play the opening league HOME match in 3rd division.
Up the Boro!
A couple of hours is a long time in footall. Having posted at 10.26 expecting to face Derby with Ripley in goal, by luchtime it's all changed!
So that's the GK gap filled earlier than expected and, very importantly, in time for the now-decisive Derby game. I know we shouldn't expect too much. Smith hasn't played much 1st team football and wasn't that good to start with - but at least he's mature, solid and experienced (I reserve the right to retract that if he has a 'mare tonight).
If we can scrape a win it is not only a six pointer. It would give us a much-needed boost and the reverse for Derby by confirming their (very desirable) freefall.