Second Class Citizens
ARE BORO back where we belong? Is this scramble for position in the second tier pecking order our true lot in life?
Now the aberration of the Gibson funded dream has faded, is this it? Are we just one of football's second class citizens back in our natural habit?
A Villa supporting friend and one time fellow second division terrace tourist asked me this week if I was enjoying it back down with the dead men and going to real grounds away from the sanitised Premiership experience. I am as it happens. For now.
Back in the dark days of fences, fisticuffs and fanzines I shared a house in Coventry with this lad, in Highfield Road which was handy, and every weekend we would jump in the car and go to a random match nearby... and from Coventry pretty much everywhere is nearby. And back then Villa, like Boro, were pretty much rubbish.
After a bit of banter ("thanks for Stewie"... "remember when YOU were OUR feeder club" etc) he asserted that after a decade of bullet dodging Boro were just back down in our natural station and we should get used to it because factory settings had been restored.
It's not as if it hurts us to be down there, he argued. Its not like Boro are a big club who NEED to be in the top flight. A brief stint in the spotlight is just an occasional treat for us, not part of our birthright.
Naturally I got all Teesside, indignant and defensive and fuelled by parochial righteous anger and sent the flat-vowelled second city half-wit a robust e-mail that was possibly against company policy.
After all, while his team have drifted aimlessly around the lower reaches of the top tier Boro have been to five cup finals, won and lost a League Cup showpiece (the same as 'mighty' Villa) and become the only side outside the Big Four to reach a silverware showdown in Europe. Big Boro were a Premiership fixture and taking Villa's best players.
Yeah, until the money ran out, he countered. It was always just a matter of time. Middlesbrough is just not a first division kind of town. Ouch!
It must be said, no matter how painful, he has a point. Historically Boro probably ARE a second division club. In fact, to most outside observers - and many cynical old school Holgate Enders - Boro are probably THE archetypal second division club.
And not just because we are battling to scrape into the play-offs in front of crowds of 17,000 with a team that is hard working but short on quality.
In almost every list you draw up of England's hierarchy - crowds, trophies won, overall average position, finances - Boro finish round about 20th or 21st... just outside the top flight or clinging on by statistical fingernails.
We are a long-standing member of that perfectly respectable group of clubs - a sizeable group it must be said - who are just too big to be content to stay on the second shelf for any length of time but not quite big enough to cement their position in the elite when presented with a chance.
They don't have the money or glamour to sign and keep the best players long enough to build a dynasty and for all the short lived stints of glory and occasional foray into the top half - maybe even the heady heights of the UEFA Cup - they are always looking over their shoulders at relegation.
They are in a permanent state of flux, uneasily straddling both divisions and with a personality split between delusions of grandeur and unsubstantiated hopes of somehow stowing away in the elite and the cold hard kernal of truth: this time next year you could be playing Scunthorpe. And not in the cup.
These clubs have little bursts of glory, maybe five years, maybe ten, usually based around the arrival of a dynamic manager with a particular tactical approach that kicks the door down; or maybe the emergence of a extraordinary group of young players; sometimes it is based on a peculiar inspirational mentality, as in Boro's fightback from the brink of liquidation; but usually it comes down to money making it possible to build on one of those elements. But rarely can it be sustained for long.
The clubs in this notional second division group who are currently on sabbaticals in the Prem will sooner or later be dragged back down by football gravity to their natural station. You know who they are. And so do they... Bolton, Blackburn, Sunderland, Birmingham, Wolves, Portsmouth, Burnley, Stoke, West Ham... come on down!
No matter how much they squeal about ancient history none of those sides have the financial resources, the established crowd base or the momentum that comes with sustained success over decades. And barring the title Blackburn bought just before the real money arrived and the odd shock cup win in a year when the big boys weren't looking none have won much since the advent of colour television either. And none will last a decade up there as Boro somehow did.
They, like us, are all part of the historic second division. The truth is the game's "natural order" is now pretty much fixed and very few teams will be able to break it for long.
Wigan, Hull and Fulham may be on an artificial cash-fuelled top flight joy ride for now but they will eventually stutter and plummet back to their 'true' position... and for two of the three that is the third tier. Or lower.
Some others in the lower leagues are too big to stay down there for long and they will inevitably rise to reclaim their rightful historic second string status: Norwich, Leeds, Southampton, Charlton and at a push Notts County in a good decade are all natural second division sides.
At this point it should be noted that the mandatory office Leeds fans - we have to have one under barmy new Brussels workplace equality laws - has threatened to call in Ken Bates' lawyers over this slur and insisted that the self appointed title of "Champions of Europe" means they should be inserted into the elite ex officio. Maybe he has a case.
But apart from the stupid sock tagged Revie years and Howard Wilkinson's long ball shock troop season they have failed to trouble the top table except with annoying boasting. They are no bigger than Wolves except in their own imagination.
And there was an high-pitched objection from the Stockton contingency too over marking their side Sunderland down among the mortals. They have won the title six times you know, although you would have to be at least 75 years old to remember the last one. One post-war FA Cup win - and one regarded at the time as a massive upset - doesn't make you a giant. Ask Wimbledon. Or Coventry.
Sunderland have won the second tier title four times in the past 15 years (twice with record high tallies) and promptly been relegated again almost immediately (and twice with record low points tallies.) If that doesn't prove the point what does?
Throw Leicester, West Brom, Ipswich, Sheffield United and Wednesday, Derby, Forest, QPR, Bristol City and Coventry into the mix and you have 25 teams of a comparable size to Boro, all with similar outlook and with the same great ambitions and limitations, all propelled on regular upward surges with optimism and the certainty that this time they will stake a claim - only to be brought down with the thud of historic certainty soon after.
Some of those may seem harsh, especially the inclusion of Forest, champions and twice European Cup winners - but even they would admit the achievements were a freak as a driven dug-out team transformed a provincial also ran briefly into a powerhouse that stuttered almost immediately on Clough's departure.
See also Derby and Ipswich, small time outfits who burnt brightly in short bursts of glory that could not be built on. And Sheffield United, Wednesday, West Brom and Wolves have all had their spells in the sun, mostly between the wars and certainly before National Service and the maximum wage were scrapped. Winning the title in the 1920s doesn't mean you are an elite side for all eternity or playgrounds everywhere would be dotted with Huddersfield shirts.
This second division, this Legion of the Damned, are the teams that Boro fans will remember playing with monotonous monochrome regularity throughout their formative years at Ayresome, our prison ship peers who took turns at a brief tilt at the top before returning bloody nosed and chastened two or three years later. These are the sides that make up a psychologically mapped out second division that deep down we all recognise.
This survey of the footballing landscape means the 'real' first division constitutes a 'big club' hard core of maybe eight gilt edged members - Man United, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Spurs, Villa, Man City and Newcastle. Our Friends in the North are only just reluctently included and probably the most precariously placed of the elite... it is only the post-Keegan rebranding that has salvaged them and if they don't win something soon they face demotion to the cheap seats alongside fellow Pathe News stars Sunderland.
Added to that group are Chelsea, a team in a transitional phase who I still see as a rubbish second tier side in exile but it has to be conceded that they are now probably cemented permanently up there by Roman's roubles.
It doesn't mean that these teams can never go down. They can. Even Manchester United took a tumble in the seventies; in the seventies Villa dipped into the third division as did Manchester City in the nineties; Newcastle have had spells in the second tier. But the point is that when they go down the expectation in the wider football world and the media is that there is an inevitability about their return.
The rest of the current Premier League are a clutch of nervous passengers clinging on for dear life during their hectic high speed spin knowing full well that one slip and they are back down in the scrum. And that may not get back. Ever.
That means there is a notional top tier of just nine and a second strata of 26 - but that is a pretty accurate reflection of the game's current structural and financial imbalance.
Being outside that elite group is not necessarily a bad thing. It isn't a mark of shame. To bounce around between 12th and 25th or so in a 92 team set-up constitutes a healthy place in the food chain.
Boro made a self deprecating virtue of being a "small club in Europe" with our mantra during the UEFA Cup campaigns and Gibbo lops another 5,000 off the population off the shrinking town every time he speaks about how we are punching above our weight. We know where we stand.
While we have enjoyed long spells in the top flight in the Charlton/Neal and Riverside Revolution decades, the majority of the post war years have been barren time serving in our allotted status. The era just gone was our Golden Age. A cup win, finals, Europe and a respectable spell as one of the Premier League's best established sides. It may never be repeated. And in a few years time no-one else will remember it.
It doesn't take much digging around to find statistical evidence to cement Boro in the netherworld just outside the bona fide big boys.
They can all bring crowds, trophies and shirt sales to the table in any playground pecker contest over status.
In terms of trophies won Boro have a meagre record - one in 130 odd years - and two third placed top flight finishes are not a lot to write home about.
Boro have always held their own in terms of crowds. We are currently ranked 19th in the all time average table, again just falling short of the big boys.
All time tables are notoriously unreliable, skewed as they are by the anomalies of inter-war giants Huddersfield or the short lived modern surge to the summit of Wimbledon. Remember them?
If a table is based on total points or wins then it is biased towards the original 12 members or gives unrealistically high placings to teams like Grimsby, Bradford and Millwall who have had countless promotions from the bottom two divisions before hitting the glass ceiling; if it is based on average numbers of wins or placings per season overall the likes of Darwen and New Brighton Tower who played when there were only two division sneak in to the top 25.
The least flawed table I could find was one on Football365 based on average position ranked 1-92 away from the top in the post-war years. It is a good snapshot of the modern realities and 56 years is a big enough time scale for anyone with pretensions of being a big club to prove it (that's you Preston and Huddersfield).
Boro are predictably ranked 20th - you would no doubt have guessed that.
Just above are Derby, Sheff Wed, Sunderland and Leicester. Just below are Ipswich, Birmingham, Sheff United and Coventry.
Boro have an average position of 24.2... or just outside the automatic promotion places.
It is hard to argue with that.
**AV writes: This is an extended DJ Yo-Yo ft Faded Giants remix of today's Big Picture column in the old fashioned paper Gazette.
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Anthony Vickers
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AV, terrific article (apart from one paragraph about a certain club), with some much admired stats too.
At the start of the season I remember thinking relegation wasnâÂÂt a total disaster as we have always been a bottom half top tier, or top half second tier team. We can not compete with the biggest 10 teams in the country on a regular basis, but got up their nose for a while.
All we can try to achieve is to be is the best that we can be. And with GibboâÂÂs money that had pushed us up a few rungs on the ladder. But we cannot realistically think top half of the Prem again. People talk about the âÂÂBig Fourâ but now with investment and years of being in the Prem there is now a Big Eight.
Last season we went down but Arsenal, Tottenham, Villa, and Everton all won nothing. Some of their fans see this as a bigger disaster than a âÂÂsmallerâ team going down.
How does this change? Well I may have mentioned the Euro super league before but I strongly believe it is going to happen. Look at the footy rich list released today. These are not teams or clubs anymore they are big business. They will protect them selves and ensure all the money they are generating stays with them. Not being handed out to the rest of planet football.
Not such a bad idea as us mere mortals could have a league that could be monitored by a governing body ensuring that there was no financial mismanagement. It could also lead to a very competitive division.
**AV writes: I was umming and ahhing about naming Newcastle as one of the big eight after their relegation and turrmoil but today's new cash league vindicates that controversial move. It shows them as still the 20th biggest business in European football and one of just eight English sides... the eight I suggested.
I remember hearing John Peel one night describe a song by a particular band as being "really good for a band who are usually a second division outfit". He went on to qualify his remark by saying, "Its not that they're not good, its just that they're a second division band. If they were a team they'd be Leicester or Middlesbrough". Always stuck with me that. Sad fact is, it is probably right.
Good article, Vic. Enjoyed it.
For those who did not see it on the last topic.
For those who write about anagrams here is one for you. I now know why they call Middlesbrough Smoggies. The anagram of Middlesbrough is "smog did blur eh" good old english talk.
Vickers man, you donâÂÂt half write some twaddle. Speaking as a Leeds fan not usually prone to boasting it must be said that any sane person with even a passing knowledge of the game knows that no matter how deep or long our current slump Leeds will ALWAYS be a bigger club than Littleborough.
What Boro donâÂÂt have (apart from any class or loyal fans) is history. We have won the title three times, the FA Cup, the League Cup, the UEFA Cup and played in the Champions League final. No one in their right mind thinks we are only a second division side. If we are are then Boro are non-league.
**AV writes: Until Revie Leeds made the odd short lived visit to the first division. Since then you have been chasing the shadows of that glory and spent as much time in the second as the first. In fact, if you don't go up this season you will have spent more time in the third tier in this stint than Boro have in their entire history. Apart from the Sgt Wilko season ALL your honours came in one six year spell. Leeds fit the second shelf profile perfectly.
As for history, Boro were top flight fixtures, packed full of internationals and had shattered the world transfer record long before his Leeds had even been founded (after the old second division side had been kicked out for financial irregularities.)
I know I shouldn't bite but it is a slow day at work.
I remember my University years in a student house in Coventry - it overlooked one of the open corners of the Highfield Road ground, so if we strained out of one of the bedroom windows you could see about one half of the pitch - it made watching matches a little awkward!
I even remember the first day Gordon Strachan signed as Coventry manager and watched the wee fella and his family get out of his car in front of our house...
As for the big club issue, a town the size of Boro is never going to be able to give sufficient supporter numbers to finance a permanent foray into the top division, nowadays you need not just national but international support to stay there.
I remember a trip to the Gambia, where we took a Jeep safari into the bush there, 50 miles away from anything close to civilisation in a very remote village I saw a 10 foot tall picture of David Beckham in Man U kit painted onto the side of a white mud hut. I can't imagine ever seeing a Boro player ever being worshipped in that way.
For the umpteenth time, can we stop taking a pop at Scunthorpe United as a metaphor for everything less-than-totally-nice-or-worthy in football terms. We all know that Boro are used as the same metaphor, just a bit higher up, so we should know better.
I worked in Scunthorpe for several years and had the pleasure of interviewing Brian Laws for the MSS magazine whilst he was manager there. Iron supporters are as delighted with unaccustomed success/frustrated with failure and club management as we are.
The fact is that at the moment the Iron are in the same division as the Boro on merit, so suck it up and get used to it. And before anyone points out the we beat them twice, I don't think that Blackpool are a better club than Boro for that reason,
Great article, interesting stats but no surprises.
Football is all about success and failure and for a club (and town) the size of Boro success is promotion/mid table prem finish/reaching cup final. It doesn't make supporting Boro less rewarding than say supporting Man Utd.
Living in London I obviously know loads of Man Utd fans (!) and they are no more satisfied than we are, for them success is winning the European Cup or Prem. Everything else is failure.
I think the sustained period we spent in the premiership led many of us to think that was now the norm and when the wheels fell off last year one or two threw their toys out of the pram and blamed the chairman. Interstingly those few people dont seem to post much on a Championship blog.
For the rest of us its been hard to adjust, especially given that relegation was so soon after the UEFA cup final which seduced most of us into think we'd cracked the big time. Pride comes before a fall!
For me I just feel a little disapointed that the ride generously funded by SG didn't result in an FA or UEFA cup in the cabinet as a momento but I'll live.
Given that Boro are around the 20 something biggest club in England means that we'll have periods of hope and above average success. When these come the trick is to enjoy it and not get sucked in to thinking a new era has dawned.
All the 'second tier' clubs who have flourished at some point have had someone special at the helm more often than not acting as a catalyst, Clough at Derby and Forest, Robson at Ipswich, Gibson at Boro, or they got lucky on a cup run, Coventry, Sunderland etc.
Those opportunities won't go away and our turn will come again. It may come sooner than we dare to hope, so many second tier football clubs are in a financial crisis that Gibsons decision to re-trench sooner rather than later may pay dividends, we can only hope.
What I do know is that over the years I have enjoyed watching Boro slaughter teams in the second division when we had Souness pulling the strings and winning promotion to the second division when we had Mowbray jetting off to the moon, just as much as I enjoyed the times I saw Boro beat Man Utd at the Riverside and Juninho and Ravenelli in their pomp.
But watching the UEFA cup quarters and semis on TV will take some beating. The fact of course that I watched those matches on TV rather than in the stadium is an indictment of the modern business that is football.
Bouncing around between 12th and 17th is a healthy place in the food chain. There's no reason - apart from the debacle wrought by the Unholy Trinity post Eindhoven why we couldn't still be there right now.
And, equally, had the remedies been straight after the end of last season we could have been where the Barcodes, Baggies and Forest are now, so little should it/does it take to put yourself above the also ran in the second tier.
If I ever feel myself to be getting used to the quality and entertainment free zone that is The Championship and believe that lolling around in it for ever is Boro's lot or the height of the club's ambition, then that's me out, I'm afraid - at least of any active support - until things changed.
I had more than forty years of all of that. You might never miss what you've never had. But once you have had it and you know what's possible and eminently achievable, well.......
I'm not talking about financial profligacy either - just decent management and direction on and off the pitch.
Mind you, unless Halliday - a right footed, eighteen year old left winger from the basement in the Scottish Leagues and available at a ã50k loan fee - is only being viewed as 'one for the future' and as in addition to the one (at least) that we need immediately then we may be seeing the height (or depth) of the club's ambition now.
I've been wanting somebody to write that article for years. Well done and thanks for your hard work in putting it together.
**AV writes: Here to serve.
We can only judge modern day football through the paradignm of the Sky Premiership.
The all time Premier League table places Middlesbrough 12th, chasing Leeds and above Man City. The 12th best team in the land since the arrival of the modern game. If we accept the Premier League to be the best in the world with a handful of good teams from Europe/south America we can reasonable guestimate that Boro are about the 22nd best club in the world.
Furthermore, the only teams above us in world football are massive cities and Blackburn. Taking into consideration, the demographic of the town, small population, historical onbstacles faced, general parahia status, we can conclude that Middlesbrough are pound for pound the best club in the world, bar Blackburn.
This is the way I have chosen to see it anyway.
If we get up this year we can easily pass Leeds.
Moreover, the best two managers of all time came from Middlesbrough. I can't even think of a Manc/Scouse manager who set the world alite. Not many great cockney managers in recent years either.
So you see, Middlesbrough is the heartland and birthplace of the beautiful game! Even when we are not in the top tier our academy boys are the stars.
It's great to be a Boro fan!
**AV writes: That's the spirit.
Teesside white - Leeds a class club!!?? Ha, Ha Ha, Ho, Ho, Ho.......
Jaguar Boy - Villa, an under achieving club if ever there was one.
Not forgetting the fact that Citeh, Spurs, Villa, Everton and Toon have all tried their best and in some cases been relegated in the last couple of decades. It is all down to arresting the tailspin that clubs get into from time to time. That is down to financial muscle and/or the acumen of the management teams.
Our current incarceration below decks chained to the oars is more down to management acumen than our financial difficulties because in part they were self inflicted with poor purchases and dim sales.
I accuse the Holy Trinity, with the blinkers in the boardroom.
That does not deny that we are part of the second grouping as per Vic's piece but I still adhere to my three tier scenario.
1. The big four (or five or six). The last few years it has been ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, Lpool.
2. Sleeping giants. Villa, Citeh, Everton, Spurs, Toon. Maybe West Ham and Leeds as temporary members on occasion
3. The lodgers on short term tenancy agreements. That is basically Vic's list.
The aspirations are to be at the top of this of scavengers on crumbs from the top table.
It was a bad season to be relegated because the lower half of the Premiership is weaker than it has been for years whilst the battle for play off places is probably tougher than in previous seasons. Throw in the loss of ã50million in TV revenue for the current season and the folly of 18 months of inaction becomes depressing.
John Powls and I are in agreement, we should not have been relegated.
**AV writes: West Ham? Sleeping giants? Occasional cup winners but apart from that they are just Charlton with a fawning media machine behind them.
Steady on AV, Loose Lips Sink Ships.
Last year Rugby League created a franchise only Super League with no promotion or relegation. This has been achieved on the back of SKY TV money. Clubs applied for a franchise based on grounds and support. This enabled new clubs like Celtic Crusaders to gain a place in the top league. Old established clubs like Widnes missed the boat.
We are in danger of the Premier League heading the same way. If that was the case we would struggle to get a place, with no chance of relegation or promotion, the rich would just keep getting richer.
In keeping with the rest of Europe a top league would be limited to 18 clubs. That scenario would be a disaster for clubs such as us. Without the possibility of getting into the Premier League where would we be?
Excellent article AV
However I do take issue in the idea of thats what it is, and probably always will be. In my time Ive seen,Man U,Spurs,Villa,Chelsea,Newcastle,and others all be relegated from the top division,other teams at the top become mediocre.
The reason for that is very simple, they had players who were not good enough and poor management at the top. I understand, today, money can take you along way up the ladder, However I strongly believe you can become competetive every year in the top flight if you expect and maintain high standards.
That's why there should be a full investigation into why our scouting has been a failure time and time again (will some one from the club please answer that one). We were a top flight club for a decade,there was absolutely no reason for us to be even struggling considering the money we where lashing out.
Dave Parnaby expects certain standards at the Academy. Its obvious the coaching is top class. They won the youth cup, brought in ã25/26 million to the club, I for one will always believe at the first team level its about players and coaching,nothing more nothing less (Simple). Lets hope Gordon expects high standards and more important expects the team to win every game.
My only regret after last season ,once again is they didnt fire the whole of the scouting personnel. It's got to be the worse one in Europe
AV
I did say West Ham maybe as a temporary member just like Leeds. I have just checked your 'best' guide table and it says Leeds 8th and West Ham 11th. The other teams in the top eleven make up my big four/sleeping giants grouping.
I rest my case my lord though, some of the sleeping giants can get into the top group and also spend some time on the oars like the rest of us.
It's probably even simpler than you suggest - any team that spends more than one year outside the Premier League automatically becomes a second-class citizen.
With the loss of income that happens once you drop out of the PL it means your budget is shrinking faster than you can adjust your costs. Newcastle must be at risk of financial meltdown if they don't go up - Boro will no doubt be selling several of their top earners come the summer if our last gasp promotion push fails.
Also 95% of clubs lose their profile in the media once relegated and are generally ignored by the national press, which gives the fans a feeling of being second class citizens.
As for choosing 'since the war' as a measure of achievement - it's probably a meaningless point in time in footballing terms and is now 65 years ago, which is almost literally a lifetime of supporting a club.
Perhaps the only meaningful starting point is since SKY entered the game and that would give Boro a favourable standing - though whether a new point in time will soon emerge (e.g. since new financial regulations were imposed or most likely, since the foreign ownership invasion).
It may well be that Boro escaped the PL financial suicide pact just in time and will take advantage in the years to come (though we're still not sure what is the state of our debt). Football is a bubble like all other financial bubbles that have gone before - the bust will almost certainly follow the boom and being second class will become a dream for a lot of fans.
Grove Hill wallah -
If a franchised league with no promotion/relegation comes it will be a European league surely?
John Powls/Ian Gill -
you both agree we shouldn't have been relegated? I'm sure thousands of Boro fans feel that way. But surely the truth is there is no 'should' or 'shouldn't' about it. There were a whole host of key moments and decisions which had they turned out slightly differently would have resulted in Boro staying up.
I would agree that the club management made mistakes but given that they are human presumably they always have even when we were enjoying success only then we didnt notice so much.
Boro have existed in the bottom third of the prem. the entire time we were in it apart from the odd occasion where we managed to hit the middle third. Existing in the bottom third means relegation is a constant possibility and that one day events will come together such that relegation occurs, such as last season.
All we needed last season was for Stewie to continue his form of the previous year or for Alves to score maybe only a few more than he managed which seemed perfectly feasible after he started scoring a few at the end of the previous season, or for Huth to stay fit for an entire season etc etc.
We weren't relegated because SG, KL or GS made any particular fundamental mistake, we were relegated because the club ran out of cash which meant we couldn't replace like for like when Southgate, Boateng, Viduka, Schwarzer came to the end of their Boro careers.
Teams who need to go through a rebuilding process always suffer a loss of form for a season or two. Boro never had enough of a buffer between our 'natural' position and the relegation zone to be able to withstand the slump without suffering relegation.
By the way your arguements are not enhanced by the constant use of cliches such as 'Crockcliffe' and 'the holy trinity' they're funny for the first few times after that they're just boring and detract (in my opinion) from your arguement.
You made a little mistake in your article. Boro are 16th on all time average attendance, not 19th.
Also I'd just like to point out to the Leeds fan that Boro have spent more seasons in the top flight than Leeds have.
Tenth place in the Premiership is the tops for us, now that the finance has established the big nine for all time. So Southgate didn't too too bad finishing 12th and 13th, did he?
Also, I'm not sure, but I think that if you look at our record as Boro 86 as opposed to Boro 1876 than we might be Premiership material.
I had to laugh when I read Teesside White's comments.
You see, I have always had a theory about this "big club" nonsense. It is very easy to tell if a club is NOT a big club. Quite simply, you will know they are not, because their fan's will spend a lot of time telling you just how big a club they are.
No Manchester Utd, Liverpool or Arsenal fans ever feel the need to convince others of their "big club" status. You only ever hear these statements from the fans of the "wannabees" like Newcastle, Leeds etc. In all probability, they are trying to convince themselves as much as anyone else.
I also believe that "big club" status is a pretty simple business as well. Big clubs not only play in the top tier, but win trophies regularly while there. As the Meerkat would say, "seemples" !
Very interesting, informative and enjoyable read, AV! I especially like your use of colourful graphics!
I like the positive spin JP's used! That really did make me smile and lift my spirits! Nice one!
I agree with McReevalinho. AV's Blog is an invaluable and diverse source of Boro information the likes of which cannot be found elsewhere. It is right there at the top of the Footy Blog League and I think no one can argue that we are one of the Big Four!
I can get my fix of FMTTM cliches elsewhere and would prefer to see intellectual, rich and thoughtful posts that reflect a respectful approach that other websites simply cannot match.
One of the Big Four Footy Blogs: Remember, you heard it here first!
Champions, Champions.....
Good article. Pretty much sums up my feelings.
McReevalinho
I would agree but for one set of facts.
In August 2008 we stripped out the entire midfield and spent loads a dosh on Digard and Emnes. Then Young went and we spent ã4+ million on Hoyte.
Fans on this message board cannot be accused of 20:20 hindsight because it was widely discussed at the time and before the window closed in 2008.
Forget the later losses on Alves and Mido, nothing was done to bring any midfield steel or experience in Jan 2009 or August 2009. The firesale merely helped to cover the losses.
Throw in Crockcliffe (like it or not) as we seem unable to treat anything other than with two paracetamol (I will list the evidence if you want it) and the Unholy Trinity - though sanbiki no saru may be more appropriate as they did chuff all - and you have the recipe for our relegation.
There is always the danger of a slump affecting the lodgers as I call teams like us but it needs no encouragement through the actions of the management team.
You need a constant focus of what isnt going right to stay in the premiership. Ignore it and as in all our work places you come unstuck.
The sins of John and myself appear to be mentioning responsibilty, adding a bit of humour (or not) just emphasises that responsibility.
You're right about a whole division of clubs who have aspirations, history, the ground and the crowds to be in the top division but who can't now compete with the bloated Champions League super-clubs.
But that doesn't mean they are not "big" clubs. I think the Leeds glory hunter has a point. Some clubs acquire greatness through tangible success and there is no taking that away.
Leeds are a massive club. Sunderland are a massive club. Wolves. Forest. Sheff Wed. All massive clubs who with a little spark (or money as it is called now) could be back up there and very quickly far bigger than Boro have ever been.
The reason is simple: they have all won the title and lots of cups. The title bestows prestige that treading water in the top flight for a decade can't buy.
When I was a kid I used to be able to rattle off the list and dates of all the FA Cup and league title winners and it used to really sting me that Boro weren't on it but the likes of Bury, Barnlsey, Bradford, Charlton and Notts County had won the cup. Since then clubs like Southampton, Coventry, even Wimbledon have joined them.
The League Cup is nice but it is not the same. Swindon, Oxford and Luton have won the League Cup. I'm not saying we should send it back in protest but I think we all know that it is the consolation prize.
The "big clubs" in this country are those that have won the title. They all deserve respect and some reverance from anyone who cares about the history of the game. Preston and Huddersfield (who didn't make your list) have won it more than once. That makes them bigger than Boro for me.
I am not bitter about all this. It just is and I came to terms with it in the 60s and we are still far bigger tnan 70 odd other teams. Our only chance was in Big Jack's first season up but it fizzled out and since then we have never been close.
AV - Brilliant! Truly you are in the all-time Premier League of journalists. And certain to cement your place there for many years to come.
Jaguar Boy - re your image of Beckham on a mud hut in Gambia; I saw a huge mural of Mido in a Boro shirt in miles- from-anywhere rustic Egypt. No,hang on, I tell a lie, it was somewhere in Thornaby.
Rank mismanagement of M.F.C. cost us our top flight status. Ten seasons in the P.L. was surrendered so meekly it was criminal.
A.V. you failed to mention Stoke as one of our yo-yo peer group, who by inference of your rationalised debate should not have even dreamed of coming close to dumping the mega rich City slickers from Eastlands, out of the F.A. Cup.
What this proved was that shrewd, intelligent, inspiring, and incisive management of limited resources can still overcome the most cash soaked of clubs.
The Boro over time, and on balance have wasted, by rank bad management, much greater investments and resources than "similar sized clubs",that they could only have dreamed of.
Investments that were made possible by ten years of Sky money and profligate, unregulated bankers doleing out easy credit in those now infamous pre credit crunch hay days of unsustainable fiscal infidelity.
How much of Gibbo's money has been squandered ? Will he be bankrupting himself? How much was diverted to the Rockliffe developments?
Boro finished last season as the 12th best supported club with an average gate of 28,000 plus,which was on the back of three seasons of mainly woeful home form, were scoring a goal was a rareity, never mind a win.
All this dumbing down spin fools nobody, it merely serves to cover up the failures and massive misjudgements of Steve Gibson and the woeful Keith Lamb.
You give us Wigan, Hull and Fulham as examples of clubs that are "living the dream" on borrowed time, but all three, and especially the latter, have the advantage over us of being very well managed with a steely, intelligent professionalism that will stand them in very good stead.
Everton are also an excellent example of how a well managed team can be successful, despite limited expenditure; achieved by intelligent, intense professionalism that gets the maximum return on most investments made.
The same can be said of Bolton, Birmingham and Blackburn who are streets ahead of us in terms of product on the pitch but behind on average attendances in recent seasons.
In other words AV, your rationale is flawed because your figures don't add up. You can't use the numbers game to justify our shocking demise. It's the manager stupid! Or should that be stupid management?
I'm coming home I've done my time. I will be back for the Newcastle game, and then home after that. So who is meeting up for a drink when I come back? CB1983 If you want we can meet up with your friends before the game as you travel from Derby area. I really would like to meet up and have a pint and friendly chat, about our BORO or anything else. Are you still out there BOROBETTY we have not heard from you in a while? Are you up for a pint Anthony.
**AV writes: Not on a matchday. I am a dedicated professional. You don't think I do all this a in a lager fuelled daze do you? Oh...
Tosh
Like many of us,who see the big picture,has simplified in his comments why we are where we are,its down right criminal,and I dont think we blame Gibbo totally,but certainly he has to know people under him where pulling the wool over his eyes
Sorry I think it is Ian Gill from Derby area not sure
For sure with only a guarantede gate of 20,000+ on a good day we can't compete with the mega rich but Boro's current situation is more to do with poor management than anything else.
We have witnessed and enjoyed those glory days when big money was spent at the end of each season to boost ticket sales. Some of the signings not sure it was about anything else. But, the optimistic mood at the start of each season was infectious.
The main failure as I see it was after McClaren left we needed a Strachen then to continue our improvement, not necessarily spending big money, after the European journey. Not the reluctanat novice.
Boro have punched above their weight and surprised the doubters more often than not which is what makes me proud to support them. Okay we're in a transitional spell right now, we may have left it late for the play-offs regardless of Saturdays result but Strachen has been in the process of reforming this team in one season.
The loss of AJ was a big hit more than the loss of SD. The guys that have been brought in are exactly what was needed. Players with bite who enjoy wearing our colours.
Sure if we were to make promotion who wouldn't be concerned about our survival, who didn't think Stoke would be down in one or two seasons. Canny management and coaching which is what we have now.
Teams may eventually return to their "level" but who wouldn't want to be a Stoke or Birmingham supporter right now sticking it to the big guns.
Keep the faith as tough and ugly as it is right now.
What's the story with George Boyd AV?
**AV writes: Forest offered a similar deal to us ... loan with a view ... and I don't think it came down to money. He fancies his chances of getting into the Prem sooner rather than later there. Plus he won't need to move house. Sorted.
Clive
I saw an image of Mido in Cairo.
It was big, fat, immovable and no one could come up with a use for it. Then I realised it was the Sphinx.
It makes me laugh when people point to all the other clubs and say "thats how to do it" and point at then at Boro and say we are a mess of mismangement.
Don't they realise that for10 years BORO were the team other fans pointed at and said "that's how to do it"?
All those years people thought Boro were the model for a small sustainable club in the top division, jealous that we had found the secret getting to cup finals, winning one, Europe good chairman, bringing good kids through but also signing household names from Milan, Real etc.
But guess what, its no secret. It was all down to money. Just like Wigan, Fulham and Sunderland at the moment. Or Portsmouth a few years ago. And when it runs out they will be back down here with us.
Hi there Anthony. No you are a dedicated professional, mind I think that some of the people who comment are seeing the game through blurred 8 pint eyes (only joking). No we will have a pint on an evening get together. It was just some people only travel to BORO on matchday, so I say I will meet them then if they want to.
George Boyd goes to youknowwho, As AV says no-brainer, but one thing AV didnâÂÂt mention and its one thing that would sway me as a player is that when we were down by the Trent there were 25,000 there. The week before when Boyd was at Fortress Riverside there was probably 14,000. This has to make a massive difference to a playerâÂÂs enjoyment and feelings of a âÂÂbigger clubâÂÂ.
Stevenage Borough to
Peterborough avoids
X Middlesbrough X passes go an gets
Beast from the East Midlands
Is he a Judas? Nah, canâÂÂt be bothered, IâÂÂll save all my booâÂÂs for John Terry. Actually I canâÂÂt be bothered with that either. Instead IâÂÂll boo Jones and Arca, that will be productive!
But we might yet see George back at the Riverside in the Play offs. What price a last minute winner?
**AV write: Given the current thread and discussion you may note that Boyd said after his move: "I can't wait to start. Forest are a massive club. It was a no brainer."
What that says about Boro I don't know.... although had he com ehere he would probably have read off the same PFA endorsed script anyway.
Totally agree with McReevalinho (can we have a recommend button?).
On the subject of 'Crockliffe', do people really believe we have it worse than any other club? Everyone gets injuries, I don't think we particularly suffer more than anyone else.
On the main point, of course we have punched above our weight, and lets not forget we had the longest post-war spell in the top division in our history. There was going to be a blip at some point. The Championship isn't the disaster some people make out. We still have a club, there are still matches to go to, there are still goals to celebrate.
As long as those three are always there, I'll still be going, regardless of division.
A PFA script! What nonsense, as if footballers canâÂÂt think for themselves. The script you are referring to is in fact published and Marketed by R Keane enterprises. A copy can be found below:
"As soon as I heard about (insert team name) interest my mind was made up. This is a massive club with huge support and joining (insert team) them is a childhood dream come true. I canâÂÂt wait to pull on the shirt and show the fans what IâÂÂm all about. I want to reward the manger and repay the faith he has shown in me."
Region Specific.
London â Cosmopolitan Blah Blah Blah Great Fans
Manchester â Northwest heart of English Football. Great Fans
Liverpool â Great Fans, bring back title
Newcastle â the women, er I mean the culture and great fans, if not already mentioned them do so at least 10 times. DonâÂÂt forget Wor Jackie, Wor Alan and Wor Mike.
Middlesbrough â very pretty countryside (well done Gazika)
Ending
"Like to take this opportunity to thank (previous clubs) manager and Chairman. And of course the fans who always treated me so well."
Robbie Keane is also available for promotional Events. His favourite Supermarkets are TescoâÂÂs, SainsburyâÂÂs, Asda, Morrisons, Waitrose, Co-op, Aldi, Netto, Farm Foods, and M & S, where he has shopped since a boy.
**AV writes: Excellent. It's funny because it's true.
The debate about where we are is all dependent on the viewpoints of individuals.
I have never criticised the club for not spending money and will never criticise the buisness side of the club because I dont know enough about it. Nor will I call for the sacking of Gibbo and The Count because again I dont know enough to make a judgement but I may make the odd harsh comment.
From outside the club I can comment on what I see, from putting together what evidence I can garner from sundry media and my own views.
We have had unparalleled success at the club since moving to the Riverside and that has largely been down to Gibson and his wallet (or Bulkhauls). People calling for him to go should look at Pompey, Palace, Cardiff, West Ham etc.
But, and it is a huge but, from the evidence available the slide into the Championship was self inflicted. You cannot strip the entire central midfield out of a club and replace it with an injury prone Frenchman and a Dutch winger both 'for the future', you cannot sell your best and most experienced defender and replace him an unproven fullback, you cannot let an experienced keeper go and then have a beauty parade with two unproven keepers.
They were gambles, they were risks that had most of us worried at the time. No problem with players moving on, they have done so and will continue to do so, but to do nothing about bringing in some experience over three windows was a nonesense.
No money is the cry, well what about the ã11-12 million on Digard, Emnes and Hoyte?
I stand by my view that it was self inflicted. I also stand by my view that to call for Gibbo to go is nonsense - if he could find some money down the sofa or someone willing to put some money into the club I wont complain as long as he retains control.
Dave Connor - Cant make Toon, it is likely to be Derby away as my next match.
Boro Phil - Are we worse than anyone else? Hard to tell but we do seem to have a capacity for injury.
Didnt the club clear our all the spots science staff? Didnt gate say he was concerned about the fitness and injuries? Dint Strachan make the same comments?
**AV writes: I used to check regularly on physioroom.com last season and we were well down the league table. West Ham, Newcastle and Man City were by far and away the most injury ravaged all season.
Ok, they took risks. But does that constitute 'rank mismanagement' as the aptly-named Tosh put it? Not for me.
Rank mismanagement is Portsmouth.
Ian -
I agree with many of your arguements and points of view, my thought looking at the whole picture is that we forensically analyse what the Boro management do and don't do and of course we like some of it and disagree with some of it.
Take the injury situation for example. Your view indicates I think that our injuries are somehow avoidable or players should recover from them quicker. But is it not the case that other clubs players suffer similar injuries? The difference being that we don't look closely at other clubs so the perception is that our problem is worse due to poor management.
My belief and this is where we differ, is that Boro on the whole is a well run club and certainly no better or worse than the majority of other clubs in the premiership.
At the risk of repeating myself my view is that the reason we went down was lack of cash. If we'd had more the buying of Emnes or Digard et al would not have been a point of debate because we wouldn't have bought them in the first place but someone of proven premiership class instead such as when we bought Southgate, Boateng, Viduka etc from those under achieving giants of the game Villa and Leeds.
As for the cliches trust me, they do detract.
AV
Thanks for the info.
AV
Does physioroom make a comparison that is adjusted for squad size? Same number of injuries for the Hammers, Barcodes and Citeh may not amount to the same impact as it does/did for Boro.
I know managers can also be prone to hyperbole - particularly in their own defence when things aren't going well. But if it's not all that bad, how come both Gate & Strachs have commented on how unprecedented the number and severity of injuries - and on how it hit Boro particularly hard because of the squad size?
And how many of the injuries that we have suffered with have occurred in training?
If Crockliffe was that good (and I'm not talking about the excellent facilities but how they are used), why have Southgate (with some push from Gibbo on the second occasion) and Strachan - successively - attempted major reforms to improve it and why did Strachan, on arrival, express his shock at how unfit and frail many of the squad he inherited were?
**AV writes: There are a lot of questions in there and it would probably need an expert physio to answer them. The pace of the game and increased strength and size of players has made impact injuries worse plus there is, quite correctly, a trend to keep players out until they are fully rehabilitated whereas in the past they would be thrown back in carrying knocks and sometimes do irrepairable damage. I've even heard compelling arguments about thin boots and blades being a factor.
Subjectively I can add that it is not at all unusual to go to games where the local reporters are bemoaning their own injury ravaged team in very similar terms to our own. I think it is endemic in the game but we only focus on our own club
I think it is endemic within the game but we only focus on our own
AV - I nominate you the chief of the Gibbo's propaganda ministry, with Paylor, and Brownlee your sub lieutenants. All I want as a Boro fan, is for this club to be the best it can be, it was doing that up until Eindhoven, then took a nosedive.
Gibbo made Charlie Amers mistake by investing the clubs income elsewhere. By justifying the present posistion you are doing this club great harm, and more season ticket holders will fail to renew this summer. Swap the ministry of propoganda for the ministry of truth.
**AV writes: Promoted above Ali Brownlee? Blimey.
Your point is flawed by this phrase... "investing the club's income". The key factor is that the club's INCOME falls far, far short of what is needed to even support a top team in this league, let alone the Premier League. That is the harsh truth and if anything would do the club great harm it would be avoiding that reality.
Surely the whole "Crockliffe" thing has an easily identifiable source ?
During our long tenure in the PL, we seemed to operate a transfer policy that valued the recruitment of previously top-class players, coming towards the end of their careers. The list of names is obvious & endless. Boksic, Mendieta, Branca, Parlour, Merson etc.
All of these players were bought while in their 30's (or close to). Their age, plus the wear & tear inflicted by a dozen or so years of domestic & International football meant that they were never going to maintain perfect fitness records during their time at the Riverside.
Any squad with an average age of 28 or over (McClaren's team especially), is bound to suffer more injuries than their counterparts at an Arsenal, for example, where the average age must be below 24. This must be accepted as par for the course when recruiting players of that ilk, after all, there was a reason their previous clubs were willing to release them in the first place.
Of course, this theory does not work for our current situation, where the incredibly young squad (mainly assembled by Mr Southgate) has suffered an unusually high injury rate. I would personally put this down to a blip, although having too many players who are seemingly made of glass cannot help things. Yes Messrs Aliadiere, Bates, Digard & Emnes, I am looking at you !!
Portsmouth - rank bad management? Well, yes - of course.
But before we get all 'holier than thou/there but for the grace....' about them in comparison with Boro/MFC (sorry, Nigel Mc R - another cliche!) what about the following:-
- Pompey be won't the only team to have been relegated from the Prem as a result of not doing well enough anyway, topped off by a points deduction that was down to the club breaching Prem/FA Rules. Who was the other one? Oh yes....
- From what I read of the Administrator's assessment of the amount of debt that Pompey have it didn't seem to be much different than what was on the MFC books. Like MFCs it has also been 'restructured' a number of times.
The difference being that in our case the 'debt' is part of the arangements between MFC and Gibson/O'Neil/Bulkhaul, though the banks have been taking an increasing 'interest' in that situation too.
For that 'shelter from the storm', Gibbo has to be thanked, of course.
- lastly, and assuming that Pompey successfully survive administration and get sold on to someone(s) actually 'fit and proper' to start their sojourn in The Championship next season with most, if not all, the high earners gone and replaced with a smaller squad they can afford - how will that be any different (except for a forced change in ownership) than has happened to Boro?
**AV writes: That is too simplistic. The problem at Portsmouth is not just 'debt' - all clubs have debt but in most cases the TV income means it is manageable - but it is the inability to tackle the debt because prospective new owners are unwilling to work their way through the dark warren of liabilities to various previous owners and the as yet unresolved issue of land immediately outside the ground which is needed for redevelopment and is owned as a ransom strip by the Gaydemaks.
Without assurances of that land being transferred, prospective new owners have refused to take on the club and its debt but the Gaydemaks have refused to sell unless they get the cash up front and before other footballing debts are dealt with.
McReevalinho
Did I say anywhere we are a poorly run club? Dont think so.
Did I say we should spend oodles of spondoolies? Dont think so?
If the warning light comes on in my car telling me that the brakes need looking at, the tyres look a bit bald and there is a nasty noise from the gearbox should I go and spend large amounts of money getting a super DAB digital sound system fitted because in the future analogue radios are being phased out? In effect, that is what the club did.
The problem we had is that some on this board thought the club was taking a real gamble by taking the actions I outlined above. We posted about it stressing our concerns and it wasnt hindsight because we did it whilst the club were doing it.
If you notice I havent blamed the club for Mido and Alves not working out even though they were expensive mistakes. These things happen.
''At the risk of repeating myself my view is that the reason we went down was lack of cash. If we'd had more the buying of Emnes or Digard et al would not have been a point of debate because we wouldn't have bought them in the first place but someone of proven premiership class instead such as when we bought Southgate, Boateng, Viduka etc from those under achieving giants of the game Villa and Leeds.''
The point is, why pay the ã11-12m when you needed something else and then plead poverty. That is a substantial amount of money better spent on making sure you brought in someone who could do a job now, replacing something you were missing. Ensuring the car was roadworthy rather than a cosmetic job.
ã11-12m is a lot of money so you cannot just write it off because you havent got more after buying something you do not need when you know you are short of cash. It is always an issue if the club is to be run well. ã50m if still in the premiership makes the misuse of the money all the more poignant.
Finally do not confuse me criticising the club for getting something wrong with writing off all that Gibbo has done for the club.
The facts are we are ninth in the Championship and you cannot airbrush the mistakes out of history. I still support the Boro, go to as many matches as I can manage - it is incurable. Here I am accusing the club of misusing money, you should hear what my son thinks of me! My wife has just given up and smiles tolerantly.
AV
What you say deals with part of my 'simplistic' view of debt comparison - though not all of it. Thanks.
Doesn't address the other two points though.
GS2 exaggerates our injury problems to suit his own agenda. If he was that bothered about the thin-ness of the squad, he wouldn't have shipped out Digard and Yeates. We've had more than enough fit players in recent weeks to get necessary results.
JP - the fact that Portsmouth may be in a similar position to us next season does not reflect on how badly Boro have been run, it refects badly on league rules that allow a club to start again after running up huge debts, then being able to go into administration and effectively cancel those debts and start again with almost zero penalty.
We've almost been penalised for sticking to the rules. I'm not going to criticise the club for that.
The legend that is Crockcliffe grew in the MacClaren years, not his fault by the way.
It was things like having had Junhnios cruciate injury as experience, Ugo jarred his knee against Spurs and the medics sent him off for his summer break. When he returned for pre season his knee swelled up only for a cruciate injury to be diagnosed.
Downing jarred his knee oddly against Spurs and was sent off partially fit to train with England and jarred his knee again. Sent off for his summer break and jarred it again early season. No problem said the club, quick opp and back into action. Jarred it agains and six months off. Unrelated said the club, same injury said Downing senior.
Christie and the multi broken leg. After one break and recovery complained about pain, two paracetamol and run it off. Still hurting. Ok you wus, we will xray it again, shiver my timber slap my thigh its broken again.
Boat and his broken toe, after a couple months when he should be fit he was still suffering. Oh, the ligaments and muscles havent grown back properly.
The problems appeared not to be players getting injured but the fact we used to joke about the diagnosis. Even AV joined in when we debated the moveable Huth injury and the worry that they would operate on the wrong elbow for his ankle injury.
That is how legends are born, Richard Foy did a superb Boro Banter and the Spirit of Hurworth. It is all part of folklore but there is always a grain of truth.
Locally the journos keep complaining about Chris Commons and his multiple comebacks
BoroPhil
Understand what you're saying. My illustrated point was that Pompey went off 'Bang', we went with whimper.
At the end of the day we'll likely end up in the same place and similarly placed - whatever the rights and wrongs.
Though I'm absolutely not suggesting that Pompey are any sort of example to follow, I think that one irony will be that the fan 'common enemy/threat' solidarity as a result of their particular 'bang' as opposed to Boro's 'whimper' may be that, pro-rata, they will hang on to more of their home support than Boro have in the second tier - at least to start with.
We'll see how they feel - and react - when they've had half a season of watching a rubbish Championship - especially if they're not doing very well in it.
Ian -
Of course you've said the club is poorly run, everytime you raise the issue of 'Crockcliffe', or refer to 'mistakes' made by KL, SG, GS etc you imply the club is poorly run.
If you balanced up those criticisms with positive comments regarding the actions of the management team that would be a balanced view and I couldn't sit here stating my opinion that you constantly accuse the club management of managing poorly.
Of course you have stated the club should spend a shed load of cash, we may have spent ã12m on Emnes, Digard and Hoyte, but to replace Boateng, Southgate and Viduka with players of similar quality would cost what now? ã30m? ã40m?
However you type your words the message you send regularly is that you think the club is badly run.
AV -
the club income I talk about is mainly Sky T.V.money, which other clubs use to finance their stay in the Premier. Post Eindhoven we became impoverished all of a sudden, starting with the sale of Luke Young, we have being going down ever since, no satisfactory explaination has been forthcoming from our local journalists.
Maybe you should have taken Keith Lambs offer up on Radio Brownlee at the start of this season, when he stated that he wished Boro fans could see, a 10 year spread sheet of the incoming and outgoings of the finances of our club.
You the journalists should have snapped his hand off for this offer, if it had been forthcoming and proved that Gibbo had done his best for the club, I would have backed him by renewing, as no such undertaking was forthcoming, we find ourselves at war with the club.
**AV writes: "no satisfactory explaination has been forthcoming from our local journalists". Are you sure about that? I seem to have been banging on about economic determinism for at least five years.
The club was not "suddenly impoversished" no matter how that view suits those who would explain our decline by an arbitary decision of the chairman to wind the whole project down. Far from sudden it was the steady accumulation of a massive debt. Sky money has NEVER covered the wage bill let alone transfers and the debt stems from a ã10m a year deficit on running the club at the level it was.
The problem was exaccerbated by a crazy decade long transfer policy of buying 30+ established stars, often for inflated prices, and very rarely getting a penny back from them in resale. That is the root of the club's decline.
Harold Sheperdson, now doesn't he just epitomise the club and the town.
or maybe Arthur Horsefield...
Are we a big club? Only way to settle this is with instant word association, think Mallets Mallet. HereâÂÂs my results but try your own ( it beats the office discussion on weight watchers diets etc)
Fruit:
Man Utd..... Pineapple
Newcastle ....Grapes
Boro...... Granny Smith
Charlton.... Prunes
Derby..... Lime
Arsenal.... cumquat
Leeds..... Lemon
Drink:
Man Utd.... Champagne
Newcastle ... Baby Sham
Boro.... Bitter
Charlton.... Lager Top
Derby.... Panda Pops
Arsenal.... Brandy
Leeds..... Watta
TV Show:
Man Utd.... Dallas
Newcastle ... WHTT Likely Lads
Boro.... Waybuloo
Charlton... Wish you were here 1986
Derby..... Crossroads
Arsenal..... Holiday 2010
Leeds.... Jeremy Kyle Show
I think you will agree this is pretty exhaustive and accurate.
In summary, Boro are fairly average but with the slight tendency to surprise and please.
**AV writes: Well, its as scientific as anything I've ever written
I have read all the posts with great interest, some are critical of management and some supportive and some are really funny with typical Teesside humor.
You could pick arguments with many of the people, but what is the point. I came to Teeside in 1966 just in time to see Middlesbrough relegated to the third division and supporters were saying the same things then, sold all the best players etc.
I have been supporting the team ever since and have stood in the Holgate end in freezing rain with barely 5000 in the ground so we have a long way to go to reach those depths. The last eleven years have been fantastic and I live with my dreams, my only dissapointment was the failure to beat Cardiff in the F. A. cup
AV - An interesting and thought provoking article. I have mentioned in the past (and it remains topical), how I cannot escape the fact when observing the goings on at Fratton Park how that could easily have been Boro's fate - if we had escaped relegation last season.
Maybe, in a Darwinian sense,we have found our true position in the football natural hierachy. I can recall the heady days (when I first started watching regularly) of Big Jack.
Whilst we haven't experienced boom and bust we have meandered between the lofty heights and the lower reaches. The process continues and that is why we must remain hopeful, it may take some time but we will return to the feted top table......eventually!
Nigel 'McReevalinho' Reeve
I think Gibbo has been a genuine saviour for this club. Crockcliffe got its nickname for its activities, I didnt coin it but at times it is apt.
Where did I state we had to buy Viduka, Boateng, Southgate quality of players?
Where did I state we had to spend ã30million?
Top keepers moved for ã2-3 million that summer. We didnt need to spend multi millions just some to replace what we stripped out of midfield, even one decent fit midfielder would have been better than nothing. Not a Fabregas or a Scholes just someone with a bit of grit who could shield the defence and pass to red shirt.
You are making up comments that I havent made, names I havent mentioned, thoughts I havent had. Why dont you just read the actual words that I have written.
I have posted many a time that the club needed to slim down the age, size and pay of the squad and that it was apparent that needed to be done even before Eindhoven.
I have never argued against the need to tighten the belt. I have always stated that the TV money doesnt come in one lump at the start of the season whilst others are saying why havent we spent the ã25million yet.
I have always argued that you wont get players in before the end of windows because of where we have been and where we are in the food chain. That bigger clubs get first call. I am the one who has been defending the new players saying give them a chance
I was always amused and commented that we wont be getting Gus Hiddink or Kaka as some seemed to think. I havent even criticised Gibbo him for appointing Gate as many have.
We stripped out Boat, Cat and Rocky and they left on two frees and ã3million. I even posted there were probably good reasons for them going. To do nothing to replace them was folly. To repeat the mistake in successive windows was folly cubed. The effect Barry Robson is having is testimony to that mistake.
Are you saying that it was right to not reinforce central midfield? Was it a good policy to play any fit defender in the centre? Your solution appears to be spend ã12million on what you didnt need at the time and dont worry about the consequences.
The club isnt badly run but it has made some bad mistakes.
Maybe you didnt read my comments on the last thread.
''I think Gibson is owed a huge debt but the club has made several serious mistakes over the last few years. Doesnt mean he has to go but there will be sections who think he should. They should consider Pompey, Leeds.''
and
''Portsmouth are in the high court trying to fend off HMRC, West Ham have paid millions for a few games from Llundberg and Dyer - a think it worked out about a million a game. Suddenly this Steve Gibson fella doesnt seem so bad, one weakness is that a benevolent dictator is still a dictator.''
Clearly acknowledging how well he has done and supporting him against those who think he should be shot. Few years means less than 20!
Still think the last couple of years were not handled well. No doubt I will receive an admonishment for faint praise. Please feel free to redraft and put in your own words.
AV - Were we not discussing the need to trim the age, size and pay of the squad on this very board even before McMoses left us?
**AV writes: Yes. I was getting flak off the club long before Eindhoven for argiong on here that the big spending days were other and we needed to reign in the wage bill, stop wasting money on over the hill mercenaries and start signing the likes of Cahill, Koumas and Jagielka (the rising stars of the lower leagues) with a view to selling on at a profit. It was seen as dangerous subversion at the time.
McReevalinho: "As for the cliches trust me, they do detract."
I concur but rather than let it fester, I pick and choose what I read, bypassing posts which contain ill-conceived phrases such as "Crockliffe" and the "Unholy Trinity".
Not only does it detract from their posts but it also tarnishes this Blog.
There was a very valid discussion in there somewhere about the change in our midfield but I moved on too quickly when I saw those boring phrases as to care to support the poster in his view.
Ah well, his loss.
I agree with AV regarding Boros standing in the Big picture.
What actually is a "Big Club" though, what criterea is it measured on! is it Crowds, History, Finances or Recent History?
If it is a mixture of all of these, which it should be, then in my opinion there are only three big clubs out there - Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal.
As for the other teams mentioned, if it goes on recent History, what have, Spurs, Everton, Man City, Villa and Newcastle done, not a lot! actually probably less than Boro come to think of it.
As for Chelsea, well they have only won the league once and a handfull of cups prior to the Roman take over, they were once classed as a bit of a music hall joke in London
I read an interesting article a couple of years back about catchment areas of football clubs within a 10 mile radius of their grounds.Middlesbrough had one of the biggest with (750'00), this can not be correct I hear you say, What about Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield and London; the problem with all the clubs from these cities is that they have more than one big club in this area diluting their support, Boro don't.
If it wasn't for a mixture of high unemployment, poor football and spiralling match day costs, Boro could potentially have one of the biggest followings in the country!
**AV writes: I agree that the crieria are flawed, especially when it comes to what constitutes a "big club" and a lot of it is subjective but Villa have won the title seven times (and the European Cup) and Everton have won it eight - and both in relatively modern times so have got to be considered in the select group no matter how you stack it up.
Spurs real success is more distant while Newcastle and Man City's claim are more based on intangible notions of size/history/potential/brand (and in Newcastle's case the very modern concept of just qualifying for the Champions League as the benchmark of glory) and are more open to challenge.
We have spent the last two days in the office arguing vehemently with the lowly position of Leeds (threats of violence have been made from the West Yorkshire direction) and the elevated position of Newcastle the key areas but this article is really a discussion document rather than a definitive statement and I am more than willing to be persuaded.
Its all subjective. If you grow up living and breathing football like we all do you have an instinctive feel for what is a big club from being a kid but I think it also depends how old you are and what part of the country you live in.
I think up here we are more inclined to think of Newcastle and Sunderland as big clubs because we have Look Geordie and the office idiot telling us all the time but down south they are just two more provincial clubs who haven't won the title for 50 odd years, like Wolves or Sheff Wed.
If you are as old as me you can remember Spurs, Ipswich and Burnley winning the title and Derby, Leeds and Forest in their pomp and so see them as still being clubs with some clout. You have to respect what they have done and what they have won.
You can't just put that history in the dustbin just because a team isn't in the Premier League. Money can't buy history.
For me, when you travel around the country and go to other grounds you can feel a big club. There is a vibe. Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U have that. Everton has. Spurs Leeds. Villa. Forest. Newcastle. Sheff Wed.
Boro hasn't. It pains me to say it but we are well short of a lot of teams on that second division list and a few years in the top division because we have a few bob doesnt change that.
Threats of violence from Leeds supporters? That would be a surprise to an away fan approaching Elland Road, wouldn't it?
How about a table of "Intimidating Away Grounds", or "Clubs Known for their Hospitable Approach to Away Supporters"?
Welcome to West Yorkshire, our friends from the north of our great county, the home of our greatest ever Manager......phrases you've never heard whilst trying to avoid the eyes of the youths who are clearly straining to hear the accent as you speak under your breath to your mate who has travelled south with you from Teesside.
Despite our fall from grace, we can still take pride in the fact that outside the 'Big Four' (sorry Glenside Stevie), Boro have been the most successful club this past ten plus years with our European Cup Final underpinning this. Make no mistake, we did it and it's as relevant today as it was last year.
Leeds and Newcastle can fight all they want for the boasting rights before this period, but we are in this elite band of five clubs until such time as one of those lesser Premiership clubs dare to advance to a European Final.
Fulham are in with a fighting chance but there are some really great sides in the last sixteen of the Europa Cup so they have their work cut out. I'd say they'd have to win it to oust us because their domestic cup record doesn't stack up to ours.
Well done Mark Schwarzer by the way and of course their vewy capable and woverwy manager!
Sure, there'll be lots of clubs who'll go on about how wonderful it is that they can consistently finish the season in the top ten of the Premiership but the truth is that getting to Cup Finals cannot be bettered and that is as precise a measure to gauge real success as you can muster.
Neil from Canada
Nice one. If the odd word of ill attempted humour upsets you, try and ignore it, just check out the meat.
Luckily Gibson appears to understand the situation. That is why Gate is summarising on ITV, Digard is in the south of France, Jones is in the reserves, Strachan is the manager, Robson is in our midfield, St Ledger is back at Preston, Coyne in goal and McManus tutoring Wheater.
Sadly we are in the Championship, expensive lesson.
Neil from Canada
A quick PS.
We shouldnt forget how much the relegation will have hurt Gibson. He is a Boro fan, he has put his money (or Bulkhauls) in to the enterprise.
Not just that, but realising that things had gone wrong was probably a personal blow as well. It was his new model army that came a cropper. He, Lamb and Gate were the architects of the new Boro. It must have hurt to dismantle it, may have accounted for the delay in taking action.
May be wrong.
Fans of colourful graphics about football teams' progress may enjoy the one at
http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/other-premierleague.html
- the extent of yellow as opposed to darker colours is a very quick and very visual indicator of who deserves to be up there in the Premiership era. On balance I think the Boro probably rank something like fourteenth or so... so sixth outside the top eight. Carry on.
Mostly I like the graph for looking at the Bradford, Oldham and Swindon lines.
Excellent article AV.
I have no problem with our placement somewhere in the middle of this second tier group. The good thing is that it's a reasonably large group behind quite a small group, so opportunities to play with the big boys crop up on a fairly regular basis.
The other good thing is that it's a fluid group. I could see a couple of clubs elevating themselves into this list over the course of the next 10 years or so...say Cardiff and Preston or Blackpool (one of, probably not both).
I can also see one of the 'big clubs' dropping down into this group for a longish spell, most likely candidate at the moment might be Liverpool (who historically are no stranger to the second and third divisions...like Leeds).
The other thing to note is that there are a couple of clubs currently playing in the Premiership who don't fit into either the "big clubs" list or the "second tier" list - Wigan and Hull. No doubt gravity will eventually happen for these clubs, but it shows that any club can achieve their time in the sun, and stick around for a while (Wigan must be up to about 5 years now).
It's this type of thing that provides supporters of all clubs with hope. If Wigan and Hull, why not Rochdale or Chesterfield or any number of clubs who to date have never done anything.
With regards to the debate about Leeds, I agree with your placement of them in the second tier. The difference is that their relatively brief "golden period" was decidedly more successful than most clubs, and certainly more successful than ours...and they have the trophy cabinet to prove it.
These are all reasons why English football is so fascinating. Grove Hill Wallah has identified the real threat - the franchise system, with no promotion and relegation. I can tell you that in Australia the AFL (Aussie Rules) NRL (Rugby League) and Super 14 (Rugby Union) all operate along these lines, and all of them in my view are tedious competitions, not discounting the fact they throw up the occasional pearl of a game. I hope it never happens, but I think I'm whistling in the wind.
Great to see Barry Robson getting the assist for the Scotland goal tonight!
Hope the "Celtic reject's" still got his motor runnin' on high octane for Sat'di.
Got the tweet from AV - Barry Robson injured and taken off v Czech Republic. Hopefully just a precautionary measure...sounds like he was integral to the Scottish attack with his deadly crosses and intelligent headers. Get back for Cardiff...
Preparing to keep tabs on our Kiwi just a few hours away in southern California. Don't know if Killen will feature, but his size could trouble the Mexicans - bang a few in and carry that form over to club for the final stretch.
Thanks again for the bonus content AV - top stuff
To Anthony and all my friends out there, and the ones who want to meet up for a beer and a chat. I was thinking Thursday 18th March EVENING. Please confirm who is coming by email daveconnor@gmail.com and I will sort out a venue.
The Green Tree behind the bus station in Middlesbrough is very central and saves driving. We can use the lounge for privacy if we have enough. I hope this date is ok for you. I hope to hear from you soon. All the very best for saturday from a very snowy Kazakhstan. Cant wait to get back to cold Middlesbrough next week.
I think the point about clubs being able to 'build a dynasty' is probably what keeps clubs in the first tier of football.
For most clubs, they only have the resources to add a couple of top players each season and need several years to reach a critical mass of quality players to keep them out of trouble. This is why the first season is always the most important for promoted clubs.
However, the problem arises in being able to maintain that level of spending in an inflationary market of transfers and wages.
AV, said in an early reply that the Boro debt was the result of spending ã10m more than income over a ten year period. This eventually resulted in reaching a debt limit before the club needed to start cutting spending in order to reduce that debt to a sustainable a level - It's called the economic cycle or Boom and Bust if managed badly.
Success for a club of Boro's size is all about getting the best out of your resources - unlike the nouveau riche who will keep spending until they stumble on the magic formula.
You could argue that Boro reached their 'debt limit' too soon because of poor decisions in the transfer market (e.g. expensive flops and signing of old players with no resale value etc). Also the debt problem was exacerbated by the credit crunch, which meant even less debt than usual was deemed servicable.
Where we are now is more or less back at the beginning of our economic cycle - but unlike when Robson took us into the PL our residual debt means we're already starting at a disadvantage.
Though we're not in isolation and the decision to tackle the debt early may prove an advantage if Boro can get back into the PL and receive the subsequent income boost - though staying their will depend on the balance of relative debt versus the need to buy quality players.
So, can Boro build a new mini-dynasty under Strachan? It appears the project may need a few seasons in the Championship to completely overhaul the current squad before once more rising to the first tier - though should he fail then it's probably going to mean being second class citizens for a prolonged period until another manager is sucessful in building a dynasty.
**AV writes: If we are painting the financial landscape it is also worth pointing out that TV money meant sparked an inflation that Boro's benefactor couldn't keep pace with. When Steve Gibson first started funding the dream and he was putting ã5 or 6m on the table in June it was a massive sum that could pay for two or three big name international players. By the end it barely got a top flight squad player.
Is it safe to come out yet? It got a bit spicy on here yesterday. It was fantastic stuff, so much so whilst reading it I completely missed EgyptâÂÂs goal and therefore forgot to cheer.
I do sometimes wonder what would be come of us all had football not been invented. Where and how else could we get so emotionally involved? People from all over the world use this blog, although I think Neil in Canada is really in Saltburn but just wants to impress with a far flung destination in his ID. Could anything else bring us all together? I canâÂÂt see us getting so tied up in local politics
Nigel 'McReevalinho' Reeve said:
Pot holes can be extremely dangerous, but the driver should drive according to the road conditions.
Ian Gill said:
I have never said that drivers shouldnâÂÂt take responsibility but three years ago I was saying the bad weather was coming and that preparations need to be made now. They were not and my road is full of holes.
Neil In Canada said:
Here in Canada we donâÂÂt have such problems. Yes we have bad weather but we deal with it better. But we do get the odd Grizzly bear popping in for tea. The grizzly population is on the increase, I propose introducing a new system of bear taxesâŠâŠâŠâÂÅ
Thank God for football
"Despite our fall from grace, we can still take pride in the fact that outside the 'Big Four' (sorry Glenside Stevie), Boro have been the most successful club this past ten plus years with our European Cup Final underpinning this."
How do you work that out? Does this selected timeframe of yours exclude Tottenhams two Carling Cup wins or would you like your selective timeframe to exclude Leicester Citys two League Cup wins.
Hang on a mo', the FA cups more notable than the Carling Cup, so add Pompey to the more successful in your timeframe than Boro list.
You Boro fans who continually witter on about your "glory" in your selective timeframes and waffle on about your catchment area are totally embarrassing and very funny. LOL!
Having a fully justified superiority complex I don't understand this bull you are pushing about 'us' being second class. Get off your knees you pathetic, limp wristed, hair gel wearing, submissive, manbag owning, smoothie drinking, sushi eating, umbrella carrying, excuse for a 'Middlesbrough Man'.
It's the Boro you're talking about for God's sake. We 'OOOZE' class you just need a discerning eye to spot it. I've always had my doubts you. Real Boro men don't like science fiction (Blade Runner is film noir and Star Wars is an acceptable allegory).
We'll win 3-1 on Saturday. Cardiff are a good side but we should have beaten them last time. More importantly the pitch will be good. 'Tap up' Chris Burke while you are there Gordon.
**AV writes: What is this sushi you speak of?
Well done smog! I wont mention an agglomeration of trees ever again.
I must admit I watched England last night and they looked much improved in the second half. The best balanced 'team' had SWP, Barry, Carrick and Milner in midfield. Oddly one of the best England performances recently was the patched up team against Germany which had no 'stars'.
More pressing is the fitness of our squad for the trip to Cardiff, hopefully Robson will show no ill effects and Killen comes back safe and sound.
Smogonthetyne NIN - A good bit of perspective! But by the way, the potholes down my way are dreadful, I've already smashed up my suspension once, for which I take full responsibility, that said in moments of weakness I blame Ian Gill!
For certain, however a 'big' club is defined Boro wouldn't meet the definition. We have a medium size fan base, medium sized income, moderate success record etc. Although for one brief period when Juninho et al arrived it looked like Boro might be heading for 'big' club status on the basis of crowd size.
Remember when the corners were built and planning permission was applied for to take the stadium capacity up to 40000+. Maybe now we should remove the corners? Just a thought.
Looking ahead to Cardiff, that's a BIG game for sure, the way I see it, if we win, it gives us a fighting chance of making the top six. If we lose the psycological damage as well as the points gap would make it almost impossible to make the top six.
Anthony I'm not sure what Sushi is but I believe it involves raw fish fingers dipped in pot noodles. Which must eaten in the nude.
Right up your street I would imagine. Whey hey.
**AV writes: It sounds suspiciously metropolitan to me.
Interesting reading Alliadiere is disappointed in not getting a contract extension. Yep well I was disappointed on Saturday when Aliadiere didnt tackle back the QPR rightback who had got the ball off him.
Now he is playing for his future , I am not sure what level he is at really. I didnt see too much of a threat out of him on Saturday and totally understand the club running down the contract on him.
Give us some Goals Ali!
**AV writes: There was a chance to sell him in August.
I heard that Alliadiere tripped over the extended contract as he made his way into Strachan's office and couldn't continue with meeting after a visit from the trainer.
Potholes are no better where I am, they spent the road maintenance budget on new curtains for the council offices in a push to be european city of culture in 2026.
Lets hope there are not too many potholes on the way to C, oops, Rockcliffe so we have a fit(ish) squad for Saturday.
I see Riggott will hopefully be fit, the Derby lads keep asking about him but he was never fit there either. 200 games at the age of 29, almost makes Folan looked productive.
Sorry for coming back on this one so late, still hanging on at Corus on night shift.
AV, the only time in our history that we have achieved our potential, was in this Gibson reign. You say we bought badly and paid over the top wages is the reason we are skint, not the Rockliffe Leisure Co. Then give us the ten year spread sheet KL.wants us to have.
if you are right it proves that this club was badly run, I can live with that, what I can't live with is not knowing. You know some football fans are interested in the corporate side of their club. Take a look at Man U and some of the hundreds of supporters trusts throughout Britain
Having read the article with great interest I must agree to it to a certain point.
There has always pecking orders in football and personally I don't care if we are perceived as a big club or small club. In the past it was more about winning things, now it seems its more about having the right amount of money to be able to win things. Now and again the scrap of a League Cup or FA Cup is thrown down and a Boro, Leciester or Portsmouth snap it up if they are on a high at that moment in time.
The main thing for me is that the Boro exist and there is a clear masterplan for the future of the club and how they are going to achieve this plan.
In the northern echo the other day Gibson suggests that we are ready to start punching above our weight again, I hope he is right but without repeating the mistakes of the past I would like to know how he plans to do this.
Are we any closer to defining a big club? We should ask some players and see what they think.
Mark Draper famously said he would like to sign for a Big Italian club, like Barcelona. Ok Mark but bear in mind these wise words from Ian Rush. "I couldn't settle in Italy. It was like living in a foreign country.âÂÂ
So do some clubs make their players feel more at home? I had a quick chat with NunthorpeâÂÂs on Jonathan Woodgate. âÂÂLeeds is a great club and it's been my home for years, even though I live in Middlesbrough."
So could managers shed any light on this? Well I think Bill Shankley sums it all up best. We donâÂÂt support a balance sheet, we support the team.
âÂÂAt a football club, there's a holy trinity the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the checks.âÂÂ
I don't know how many people saw it. But our own Barry Robson was excellent in Scotland's win over the Czech Republic yesterday, even set up the winner. He also started ahead of Charlie Adam, who many on here rightly rave about.
Real class act, our best player ever named B Robson? Discuss.
All of this talk about which club is biggest became immaterial when the Premier League was formed. The 20 biggest clubs in the country occupy the top league. At the end of the season three will be relegated to be replaced by the three newest members of the Big Club 20.
Football Clubs can no longer exist on income through the turnstiles, it is the television money that determines who is the big club these days, not history.
Down in Derby our office tipster thinks we will beat Cardiff, he also thinks we will get into the play offs.
Bless!
Smogonthetyne now in Nunthorpe ~ You just about nailed it other than the reference should have been a Moose.
F T Maxwell's house ~ Just keep making the coffee, will ya! You missed the point as your kind (opposition fans) always do! Note the sentence ends with "European Cup Final underpinning this."
Shove your boring domestic cup hullabaloo, we're talking the heady heights of Europe of all places! Your selective reading once again drops you in it from a great height.
What's important is that at the Boro we have a club, infrastructure, manager, chairman and players that can move us within punching distance of the premiership- where we belong.
We won't ever have as much money as Man Utd, Arsenal and Tottenham but we have the ingredients to play on the same level as them and rub their noses in it once in a while. We are a club that can and should be able to produce a team of good footballers worth watching.
There is a lot to be admired at the Boro. We're not 2nd Class.
And another thing. The present fashion of mocking the staff at Hurworth is getting tedious. The 'statistics' trotted out on this site seem to be based on 'invention and imagination' at best with a bit of urban myth and anecdotal bull thrown in as well.
Players are different today the game is much more demanding both physically and mentally. Injuries are inevitable (Ferdinand-Vidic-OShea- Hargreaves ....)
The area of risk to be most worried about is paying for older players who are physically over the hill like Boscik, Parlour, Gasgoigne (couldn't stand the weeping, attention seeking, Geordie ....).
That's not to say we shouldn't sign older players, 'Rough-House' Robson seems to care about his performance, he has professional and personal pride. I like his steely presence and apart from his common Geordie name he seems right for the Boro. I may write to him to ask him to change it to Mannion, Maddren, Murdoch, Souness, Mustoe, Mowbray.
And that, I would say, is the beauty of Gordon Strachan you have a great chance of getting your money's worth with him.
Having said that - bring back McMahon!
Jesus how did I miss the post from Dr Whitebread the Leeds fan ?
What are you doing in Middlesbrough Seth ? Don't answer I can guess. We are logging your number plates !!
I know this is asking a lot of a tyke but shouldn't you stop and think before opening your mouth ? You do realise don't you that Ken Bates is in charge of your club ? You'll be sold to some Albanian Land Fill company if the price is right.
Know your place Eli, you're not even on the top table in Yorkshire t'Wednesday, t'Blades and t'Donny are all above you.
Now then, Stewart!
Missed the game but caught up on things as best I could via internet news reports.
Begrudgingly missed by most Celtic fans, he is definitely one of our own now and as you rightly say, a real class act! I hope he hasn't aggravated the injury he has which he seems hell bent in playing through for us, for the cause and for his country.
A big heart laced with Hicktonite, he has all the hallmarks of being one of a new breed of heroes among our ranks. Is it ok to use the term Hicktonite?
**AV writes: Yes, please use Hicktonite, spread the word. It is another one from the Victionary.
Stewart,
I also saw the Scotland game and yes Robson was superb...as was Dorrans from West Brom... interesting Dorrans started off at Livingston the same club that Andy Halliday now plays for. Get him signed Gordon !
You started your article with a question. Are Boro back were we belong?
The answer is most definitely no!
In our 100 league seasons we've spent 60 in the top flight. After we were relegated in 1954 we spent 20 years out of the Division 1. That's the bit in living memory that clouds most people's prejudices. But that was an anomaly. Apart from that spell we've spent 75% of our time up with the "big boys".
Using post war as a measure stick seems a bit arbitrary. It would be better to use a benchmark that changed the way football was.
For example you could take the start of European competition. Or after the maximum wage was abolished. Or after the Bosman ruling. The start of Satelite television, or the premiership, or the Champions'League.
Whichever spell you take for "modern football" you will find that Boro were more often in the top division than out of it.
We are historically a bottom half of the top division club.
You've got the big nine spot on. It doesn't matter how you measure it. Those nine clubs are the biggest nine in english football.
We are fighting with the 26 clubs in your colourful list to become number ten.
AV, any news on signings?
**AV writes: No, its all gone very quiet.
Hicktonite, excellent description
I remember his first game against Shef Wed think it was and he took the penalty which changed the game and took what seemed like a 20-30 meter run up.
**AV writes: Didn't he start at the Cenotaph?
HELLO MY FRIENDS. NOT MANY EMAILS COMING FOR HAVING A PINT SO FAR. HOPE YOU NOT FRIGHTENED TO SHOW THE "FACE" BEHIND THE WRITING.
I only chose the 18th because it was a quiet evening. I hope to hear from more of you soon. All the best for tomorrow. daveconnor@gmail.com
PS is that Mick Johnstone of centre forward fame, who is writing. If so I think you should take your boots down and show them how to put a few in Mick. Oh happy days from yesteryear
A funny (for the right reasons) boro related article in the national press. Enjoy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/mar/05/middlesbrough-harry-pearson?
Smogonthetyne now in Nunthorpe: Thanks for that. Harry Pearson's a brilliant and amusing writer and a great Boro man.
ronmarg
I think Hicktonite first made its appearance in the 3-2 home win against Workington coming back from 2-0 down. Sheff Wed was the team we signed him from.
Vic, have you got a post lurking in the in tray from me about TV money.
If not the essence was that in recent rich list of footbal clubs the Spanish giants were one and two. In part this is based on the fact they negotiate their own TV rights just as the EU would like to impose on us.
For all their faults the big club have maintained collective bargaining rights. I dont like the way the money is shared but it is better than the EU alternative.
As an aside does anyone know if the lower leagues in europe get the same or better TV coverage than we get in this country? Do they get any at all? I must admit I dont know.
Girding my loins ready for the Cardiff match, daughter is back this weekend and I am hoping I am spared from a 'family day out' (aka shopping).
They were talking of a day out somewhere different, my suggestion of Cardiff was met with a frosty reception. I suppose 3-4 hours drive just to go to an M&S somewhere else isnt worth it.
Dave Connor
Long way for midweek mate, hope it goes well
Smog
Great article by Harry Pearson, I doubt the rest of the Journos at the Guardian even know where Middlesbrough is.
Where ever 'Big' John Hickton started his penalty run from we always knew where the ball was going to finish. Football is a simple game and taking penalties is a simple procedure, none of this poncing about with 'funny' run ups etc for Big John just plenty of Hicktonite. A proper footballer!!
Neil - You're not one of those 'ice road trucker' gadgies are you from that there telly programme!!??
Av do you get an overnight stay in Cardiff? or are you hitting the road early? Does team Gazette share the driving or can you nod of Slaven style?
**AV writes: We rarely get an overnight. a midweek in London maybe but we haven't had one of those this season. Plymouth will be. We share driving in the Gazette office clichemobile.
Smogonthetyne - thanks for pointing out Harry Pearson's bit in the Guardian, what an excellent piece, certainly made me laugh, the part about why the pitch at Ayersome was so good is just priceless!!
Peoole know ehere they were when JFK died, when the Twin Towers was struck but I was there when the Hicktonite failed to work.
It was in the FA Cup and the Tigers had taken a surprise lead when we were awarded a penalty.
As usual our intrepid hero set out from in front of the Dorman Long museum, ran past Rea's cafe, down Kensington Road but as he approached the penalty area something didnt seem right. There was not the same venom in his shot and it was saved. I believe we went on to win 1-0 in the second replay at York City. Could be wrong.
We suspected Lex Luther, closet Hull City fan, had the penalty spot at the Holgate end painted in Kryptonite.
First the tooth fairy, then Easter Bunny, then Hicktonite. Super heroes all shown to be illusions but of them all, at least Hicktonite came back with renewed vigour
I canâÂÂt believe itâÂÂs taken me this long to remember but it was the defeat in the cup against Cardiff that shot me to prominence. My ugly mush (fortunately partially hidden by my hand) was the picture on the front page of the Gazette (full Size!!) the day after the cup exit.
Not living in Teesside at the time I didnâÂÂt know until my Aunty called in a state of shock from her newsagents. Quite why she had to buy 10 copies I donâÂÂt know. Quite why I have had one framed and put up in the spare bedroom will always be mystery to my wife. But as Harry Pearson says getting kicked whilst you are down by the Boro is what we have come to expect. ItâÂÂs nice to have a constant reminder of this.
If you can bare it hereâÂÂs a link to the photos, IâÂÂm in there somewhere.
Up the Boro.!!
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/videos-pictures/boro-fc-photos-video/2008/03/10/boro-fans-at-the-fa-cup-match-84229-20598204/
Tonights paper has Taylor and Arca as our left side at Cardiff.I sincerely hope it's not true.
If the penny hasnt dropped with Strachan that these two are simply not good enough then I really despair.
As we are reminicsing over John Hickton, the following is a song that was sung at Ayresome Park....
Some talk of Alexander, and some of Hercules.
Of Hector and Lysander, and such great names as these.
Of all the world's great footballers, there's none that can compare, with H-I-C-K-T-O-N, that's Hickton of Middlesbro'.
Sung to the tune of The Grenadier Guards.
(I kid you not)
I have enjoyed reading the debate initiated by a good article from AV on our status, ourrecent history and general position in English football hierarchy.
What is important is how we seen by our rivals, most of whom we have been playing against for over a century. I believe the club is well respected for the players it has had and the quality of football it has played over the years.
Living in West and South Yorkshire as I have for nearly forty years, most friends and colleagues regard Middlesbrough with interest and respect, certainly not the loathing that still hangs over Leeds United.
Football in its soul is a working class game and Middlesbrough is a working class town that embodies the game for its simplicity and purity. We have never had dirty teams and courted controversy. We can hold our heads high regarding how the club tries to play good football.
Yes as described brilliantly by Harry Pearson in today's Guardian when you need an emotional uplift, the team will guarantee to disappoint and break your heart.
As I become older I try to desperately to see every set back in a philosophical context ,every advancement viewed with caution.
That the Boro are enigmatic is to say the sun is hot. The day before my dad died (he lived and breathed Boro when he was a lad) I told him the result when we played Crystal Palace and that we had lost and missed numerous easy chances.
He knew instinctively what I felt as he raised his eyes to heaven in predicatable exasperation. No doubt similar feelings will surface this weekend.
McReevalinho: "You're not one of those 'ice road trucker' gadgies are you from that there telly programme!!??"
I hunt Moose and cut down trees but not necessarily in that order, eh? Wouldn't be seen dead in a juggernaut. Far too easy, them roads. I like to spend my time off the beaten track huntin' and hackin'.
Smog/Tyne/Nunthorpe:
Thanks for the Harry Pearson link. I have a feeling I might have been one of the three men walking to the ground when the subject of jumping off the Transporter raised its ugly head!
Since the new stadium at Cardiff is so modern, I expect it will have lots of electric points, internet-enabled sockets for your ethernet cables and/or Wi-Fi available. So can we take it Mosso will get a start again, and that we get a half-time Journos' food report (Cawl Cennin, Welsh rarebit....)?
**AV writes: Mosso is raring to go.
Smogonthetyne's hurt that day was shared by us all. A very poignant snapshot.
Hiya Neil (rumbled in loftus),
IâÂÂll go along with the pretence and imagine you at work in Canadia. Idly whiling away the hours before you finish for the week. What part of Canadia are you in? IâÂÂve been fortunate enough to visit Toronto and the Canadians are great, much better than the yanks.
WhatâÂÂs the football scene like out there? Are you tempted to tell any Canadian that will listen that Middlesbrough FC is by the greatest team the world has ever seen. Anyway hope to âÂÂseeâ you all in the virtual away end tomorrow.
Up the boro!!
O no not Taylor/Arca. What's up with Bennett/ Franks on left? Lots of pace and poss goals from Franks. Nowt from other two
I said before, Strachan's lost the plot.
I think somewhere on this thread somebody asked about live TV coverage of the 2nd division in other countries.
I pay 20 euros a month and can watch every Bundesliga and every 2nd Bundesliga game live. If games are played simultaneously then you can either pick and choose which game you watch, or watch them all in a conference, where they hop from ground to ground every time a goal is scored.
On top of that on free TV every Monday they show a live game from the 2nd Bundesliga.
Anyone else out there have the suspicion that people are not where they say they are?
Remember (was it?) Neil from Baku, Tim from SA, Neil in New Jersey, Borobythesea, smogdownunder etc. Let's be honest lads (in order) - Neil from Billingham take a bow, Tim from South Bank show us a smile, Borobythesea is living happily in a rowing boat at Paddy's Hole, smogdownunder - let's be honest you live in sunny Brotton (it's as far south as many wish to go).
Cosmopolitan? This blog doesn't know the meaning of the word. Grove Hill wallah has won so many Mercs recently from this blog that he lives in a gated community not far from Wynyard. And Chris from Beverley probably lives in Beverley Road, Redcar East, and let's be honest, the blog doesn't stretch to Bremen so I reckon Werdermouth is proably a loudmouth from Cockermouth....
Can't fool us AV. The scam has been recognised. We are the bhoys who know their geography. We are, after all a small town (no longer) in Europe. We shall overcome, slowly and inoffensively, if it's alright with you.
Come out, bhoys, and wear your badges of loyalty with pride. (Dormanstown, that beacon of civilisation in a sea of barbarity, is of course excused from criticism as it challenges people to rise as high as humanity allows, whilst always retaining a layer of patience encased in a skin of boundless humility).
We are Boro. We are. We will be (there could be a motto in there somewhere). It's a good job we have a sense of humour.
Fingers crossed for as at Cardiff. Come on Mosso, do a job for us, whilst the rest of us hang on the last words of AV, Ali Brownless and SSN.
The important issue - can we sneak the away win? I have a feeling in my waters...
SmoginNunthorpe, once of Tyne ~ "IâÂÂll go along with the pretence and imagine you at work in Canadia."
Honest guv, as the day is long, tundra is frozen and the local folk invariably finish their sentences off with an "Eh?" I live in south western Ontario, 18 clicks south of a place called London (pop. 360,000) and not too far from Lake Erie.
They're Ice Hockey-mad around here. As Footy is in our veins, the Canadians are totally fanatical about their national sport, the Gold Medal win against their southern neighbours underpinning this.
Crosby is the player who at a very young age has not only won the Cannucks the Gold at the Olympics, scoring their equivalent of the golden goal but he's lifted the Stanley Cup with the Penguins in 2009. Our local hero is Joe Thornton and is often in the town during the off-season.
Since they decided to build some tall buildings in Downtown Toronto, the City has sprung to life but it wasn't too long ago that it was perceived as a dour, soulless urban sprawl without a heart.
The Rogers Centre and the CN Tower are two buildings that probably stand out most for you guys although the financial sector has seen some great additions to the Toronto skyline.
Toronto has some teams, most notably the MLS club with Mo Johnston as their gaffer but it's so dire I find it difficult to get excited about. Grass roots leagues play throughout the summer for obvious reasons but it's just an excuse for hockey players to hip check and fight under the sun.
I've tried in vain to convert some of my hockey-mad friends but they'll have none of it. Baseball is fun though and I've had many opportunities to watch the Jays strut their stuff.
Forever Dormo ~ Used to live in Bransdale Grove. Good 'ol Dormanstown. Now there's a real dormitory for the working man. Bit short on the night life though, eh?
Dormo need to put my teeth in first before i give that smile and yes the truth is out. Zumas other four wives stayed with me in South Bank while he had tea with the Queen.
Anyway today its Cardiff hope for a win as always and hope for some other good results around us.
Thanks for not saying i come from Stockton that would have made me a Mac........
Foreverdormo I am truly writing from Kazakhstan. Like I said when I invited people to come for a pint "lets see the face behind the name" I have not had a response from you yet. Are you a ghost writer also?
I hope the BORO have a good win today, all the best for you lads going down there. I will be home next week and going to match next Saturday, that is if I can get my season ticket back.
Guess you are all rooting for the Toon today, at home to Barnsley??
If the worse happens and Boro lose at Cardiff and Barnsley win at sid's they will go above the Boro! On the other hand... if the Barcodes win it will be yet another helping hand from your NE neighbours on Boro's quest for the last remaining play-off spot.... I will thank you in advance for your support then?
Thanks guys.... gritted teeth an all!
Then onto the BIG one... 'Derby' day... now, what's Boro's injury situation?... will your international midget of a striker be fit? Will GS2 want him in the side v the Mags?... best check weather and snow forecast before answering that one!
With all the assistance the Toon have given the Boro in their drive towards the play-off spot this season, I have heard on the grapevine that the Mags are going to make the ultimate sacrifice and let you have the 3 points next week... after all the Mags are so far ahead at the top it will not make one iota of difference to them.
So, don't take too much satisfaction if that is the case... you should applaud the Toon for being such good neighbours. I will be making my annual pilgrimage to the land of the permanent cloud cover... the dreaded trail thru the tunnel...
A66 or Transporter? ... must check wind velocity.
3,600 Jawdees, what a day in prospect. ... Whatever the outcome, keep smiling!
Dormo, I think you're confusing me with one of my ancestors - the great poet and writer William Werderworth, who was born in Cockermouth in the late 1700s.
Forever
Talking of my Mercs, one suspects that Vic and Eric travel in one of those stretched limos so beloved of eastern block leaders and the KGB. Darkened windows, chauffeur up front, bar in the back. Maybe even travel with Lambie.
My daughter has decided on the family day out and it is up to York. As part of the trip she wants to visit her grandads grave, cant even dream of arguing with that.
So it is over to Powls junior at Cardiff (Powls senior will be in the air), Vic, Mosso, Uncle eric and the Diasboro to do the busniess. As I get back in the car I expect three points, dont let me down.
Wonder if you can get Radio Tees in York, whilst they are in Bettys I could pretend to go to the Supermarket........
Neil Said:
"Honest guv, as the day is long, tundra is frozen and the local folk invariably finish their sentences off with an "Eh?"
That's Carlise isn't it?
I watched the ice hockey last sunday, and despite the BBC's best efforts to dumb it down, the show was presented by Steve Cram, Some Female Canadian Skier and Matthew pinsent you stil got the gist that it was a big deal.
Baseball looks ok, especially the sitting the sun drinking beer part.
Do the fnas of these sports get as emotionally involved as us poor sods?
Did Mosso fall foul of the Welsh Border patrol?
**AV writes: As far as I know he did the full 90. It seemed quite lively on the virtual Holgate although I don't think anyone was taking much notice of the game.
Chopra 5 mins
Bothroyd 33 mins
Burke 56 mins
Ardlyeverthere 67 mins
Ardlyeverthere 69 mins
Arca 88 mins
coyne og 90 mins
Gutted!! After todays result, I think that is us condemned to at least another season in this dreary division. (5 points behind Cardiff, plus they have 2 games in hand on us) Waiting for the football league show to see if Lita handled the ball for the "goal".
Despite only 570 something Boro there today, we didn't stop singing and getting behind the team - great to be apart of it.
Now..... where does that ref live? He and his assistants made some dreadful decisions against both teams, but more so against us. Must also say how impressed I was with Chopra's work rate and ethic he didn't stop closing down and was a threat all game long. If some of our boys had his heart and desire we would be winning more than losing.
AV, the link for the QPR game was on your blog so that's where I looked for it. Seems todays link was on the Gazette page. Oh well, another must win game lost.
Just back from Cardiff.
We were terrible first half,improved in the second,denied an equaliser with a dubious decision from the linesman and plenty of missed chances late on.
Why on earth Taylor and Arca on the left?? Taylor not good enough and Arca contributes nothing to the team at all,when Franks plays hes fast,goes past players and creates oportunities in the box and if Bennett is at left back as well we trouble teams with their pace,Taylor and Arca never move.
I presume Killen was on the bench because of the travelling with New Zealand but why buy Miller and leave him to warm the bench and then play Aliadiere(i'l never score or get a shot on target ever) and Lita(more concerned with winning a foul than trying to put the ball in the net)when Strachan didnt rate them hence his buying three strikers of which MacDonald still isn't fully fit six weeks later.
Why do we persist with the long ball to Lita when he never wins the ball ever,we are much more productive when we pass the ball and use the wide men.
Our playoff hopes are well and truly gone now!!