Strachan's Celtic Tigers Fail To Roar And West Brom Watershed Woe - One Year On.
SO, BORO unleashed their three new Celtic Tigers and still there is no bite. A bit more of a roar in the first half maybe but no ruthless predatory instinct. No teeth.
Gordon Strachan blooded all three of his old bhoys at Sheffield United and all offered some promise. Robson had some nice touches and some deft deliveries but was maybe wasted out on the right; Flood showed plenty of industry, a bit of a snarl and a willingness to put a foot in; and Killen worked hard and won plenty of aerial flick-ons.
But while adding bodies and options in midfield is a tentative step forward it will take a radical revamp at the back and a lot of added punch up front to transform this squad into an effective unit that can flourish in the Championship.
It was nice to see new faces; less pleasing to see the same old flaws. For all the possession, free-kicks, corners and persistent approach play there was still no real threat. A couple of weak shots from the edge of the box, a few easily held free-kicks, one spooned over and a stonewall penalty claim waved away.... their keeper never had time to relax but neither was he ever really tested.
Meanwhile, at the other end, there was more deja vu as Boro worked hard to keep a physical Blades side at bay only to let it slip with one costly lapse, again a familiar one as David Wheater let his man sneak in and get goalside to bundle home a routine ball in.
Three new faces in. It will take at least that again to get the team functioning to anything like the way Strachan wants. And by the time we get them bedded in time will be of the essence if anything is to be salvaged from this season.
*******************
BEWARE the Ides of January. A year ago this weekend we went to West Brom and got comprehensively battered. A team that looked dead and buried embraced us in a suicide pact and rammed quite a few nails into the coffin: they tore us apart, Digard was sent off in a shameful and shambolic second half and hope for many was extinguished.
The Baggies fans started singing 'sacked in the morning' and a lot of Boro fans joined in and after the game Southgate was an ashen-faced zombie, shell-shocked and barely capable of speaking coherently to the media. We were shocked. We genuinely thought he was going to cry. Everyone was convinced he would walk. Or be sacked. It was stressed to us in no uncertain terms from very high up that was not going to happen.
It was a pivotal moment in the history of the club. It was a two train crash. Had action been taken then, who knows what would have happened? Could we have survived? Where we would be today? How much has changed in a year? The team today will be virtually unrecognisable. The horizons and mentality altered beyond belief.
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Only one inaccuracy from my recollection. John was there with Phil, I was there with my son (before he decided I was absolutely barking) and I am sure the sacked in the morning started in the Boro fans to be picked up almost straight away by the Baggies fans.
The writing was on the wall when we started with Tuncay on the left and Downing in the hole!
we are the walking dead.
I would love to know what said at half-time by Strachan. We went from a team closing down, looking lively, creating space and chances to an absolute shambles. Only positive from the second half was Adam Johnson, imagine what he could do if he had quality around him.
Eindhoven was THE pivotel moment, the end of an era and the beginning of an error.
How much has changed in a year? Well an awful lot!
Its like a scene from "Back to the Future" or perhaps more aptly "Life on Mars". Picture yourself in the early seventies, Cat Steven's playing on the Radio, followed by Nilsson's "Without you" then Don Maclean with "Vincent" followed by Brain Connolly's (note not the Comedian Conley) Sweet and the telly programmes fluctuate between Black & White and the "new" modern Colour programmes (cue "Are you being served", "On the Buses" or even "Budgie").
Graeme Souness is yet to arrive, Big Jacks's era is far into the future and Boro are a non descript team of journeymen battlers and grafters who survive each year in the 2nd tier and occasionally threaten to maybe one day get promotion, one day but never did.
Mobile phones were something out of Flash Gordon (later to be made even more famous by a band called Queen!) and the height of trendy modernity was a Dansette reel to reel tape recorder (not even cassettes had made the breakthrough yet although 8-track players in the car was the ultimate accesory for your brand new Cortina 1600 XL!
Tomorrow morning the kids in the street would be out riding around on their Orange Raleigh Choppers (or Purple if they had one of the rarer colour combo's) with a Leeds or Liverpool footy top on because that wasn't treason: they were in a different league to us and so it was the norm. Boro might have won, lost or drawn and to be honest it wasn't such a big deal because they were Boro and Boro didn't do anything, they just simply existed.
Then we had a short lived time in the top flight overachieving with Big Jack until all our young starlets were sold off to balance the books and all we had were the memories (and the white band!) of when we dared to dream (later a Swedish Band would take the world by storm, honestly believe me).
Present day 2010 Boro brings to mind a 70's Carpenter's song (sing along if you like):
All my life's a circle;
But I can't tell you why;
Season's spinning round again;
The years keep rollin' by.
It seems like I've been here before;
I can't remember when;
But I have this funny feeling;
That we'll all be together again.
No straight lines make up my life;
And all my roads have bends;
There's no clear-cut beginnings;
And so far no dead-ends.
Chorus:
I found you a thousand times;
I guess you done the same;
But then we lose each other;
It's like a children's game;
As I find you here again;
A thought runs through my mind;
Our love is like a circle;
Let's go 'round one more time.
Like the song says "Lets go around one more time," ah well nostalgia's a wonderful thing, I just thought mine would start in old age and not in my 40's!
Speaking of song's didn't that Swedish band eventually go on to say "If you see the wonder of a fairy tale, You can take the future even if you fail, I believe in angels, Something good in everything I see, I believe in angels".
We now need the spirit of the Ayresome Angels "You can take the future even if you fail, I believe in angels", C'mon Boro! (the Swedish band didn't actually say that last bit!).
**AV writes: Joy Division, the Clash, the Smiths, Devo... all musical references I can trade with you all day long. But the Carpenters and Abba? That's well out of my comfort zone.
I don't know if the live blog is just not working for me or is down for everyone.
Anyway, I listened to the game on internet radio with Brownlee commentating. It sounded like the new bhoys added a lot of energy and commitment to the team. AND Robson looks like a leader right from the off. It sounded like we were the better team by a long way. Just need to find the back of the net.
I hope we can get another three or four players in and that they show the same commitment as the three ex Celtic players who could very soon be hailed as our saviors!!!
Come on Boro. Lets get behind Strachan and the team. The only way is up!
Same old Boro: half decent first half not troubled by the opposition, you are happy with 0.0 half time and think the games there to be won in the second half. Then we get the half time team talk it all goes wrong and within ten minutes of the second half then we concede and you know its game over because we will never score if we played all night.
I didnt think the new lads were any better than what we have,Flood no better than Yeates, Killon a big man up front heading on to nothing and Robson no better than anyone else we have played on the right.
Why on earth does GS persist with Hoyte at left back? He cant use his left foot and certaintly cant defend and half the time isnt even aware of what is going on around him.
Osbourne made little contribution we may as well have not extended his loan spell and the same can be said of Bent. We kept him until today and never even played him.
Aliadiere starts a match, goes off injured,comes back from injury starts again and goes off injured again,getting a bit repetitive. Definitely hasn't got the heart.
I hope GS has a plan C now because we are sliding at an alarming rate towards league one.
AV, the Carpenters and Abba were hopefully representative of flowery, numbed, carefree times (removes fingers from back of throat admittedly) days when Waterloo was just a train station somewhere down south, that or a battle somewhere outside the old Den.
The Clash and Joy Division came along a few years later (mid to late 70's?). Consider the appropriateness of Joy Divisions “Love will tear us apart”, the Devo album “Duty now for the future" or even perhaps Clash’s “Should I Stay or should I go”. Then again maybe not, you could have title's for another three blogs there!
So it appears the revival has been put on hold until we manage to sign a decent striker or two - though it sounded like Robson could do well for Boro.
But with Forest putting the pressure on Newcastle, with maybe WBA pushing on behind them, there's a possible scenario where Newcastle have a dip in form and finish the season in third.
So if Boro somehow get their act together and ultimately make the playoffs we could still have a season to remember by beating the Geordies in the final - OK it sounds a bit far-fetched but it's the best bed-time story I can come up with at the moment.
By-the-way AV, I'm also struggling with Redcar Red's musical references but a quick scan of Wikapedia has informed me that apparently The Carpenters and ABBA subsequently went on to form the supergroup Ikea, which I understand Alicia Keys' father Allen had some involvement in assembling - though I believe after a catalogue of disasters they eventually fell apart.
We bring an experinced Manager Shambles!We are going Down!
Instead of following Jeff '257' Stelling this afternoon I spent some time with my lad watching an ESPN highlights package of the Premiership in 1998-99. Hamilton Ricard was featured early in the piece, as were our wins at Spurs and Man U. Amazing times to recall, really.
After that we went full on, watching our heartbreaking 3-3 draw at O.T. in May 97, the first Chesterfield semi-fianl, before resorting to 'Match Of the 90's' when our heroic Rumbelows Cup semi final (again at O.T.) and then our historic win at Wolves that took us into the first ever Premier League.
When all was done, and we switched back to see the results, it was no surprise to see yet another defeat and more evidence (if more were needed) of the demise of this once proud club.
As I have said before, we will be stuck in this division for years and years.
PS
**AV writes: Joy Division, the Clash, the Smiths, Devo... all musical references I can trade with you all day long. But the Carpenters and Abba? That's well out of my comfort zone.**
I can reveal to your many fans AV that in your teen days you were a major league punk/indie man, self-styled 'Vic Vomit' and possessing many fine 'subversive' records of the time that we used to listen to. Happy days! What did you do with the 'Inverness' record?
**AV writes: Ah, the Prats... Aberdeen's finest schoolboy one chord cartoon punk band. It'll be in the loft with all the Poison Girls, Crass, Flux of Pink Indians and Alien Sex Fiend stuff that is pretty much unplayable now.
...and whilst we're on the late seventies anyone notice the similarity between wee Gordon and Rat Scabies, the Damned's erstwhile drummer...and that takes me back to if my memory serves me right to when the Damned played Gaskins - above or very close to the very wonderful Frankie Dee's....and Gaskins burned down the following night.....
**AV writes: Willo Flood - Howard Devoto?
Walk in Silence,
Dont walk away
See danger
Always danger
Endless Talking
Life Rebuilding
Dont walk away
**AV writes: Now you're talking. Get MMP on the job.
Hello all - long time no send - sorry but I guess I am typical of most things Boro at the mo... tho's I do still read and see how things are looking...
And from down here AV the question is a simple one... are we still turning out the same dross as we were a year ago? HAve things got any better or are the perfomances worse? At the end of the day GS2 is a proven performer and so if things are worse then surely GS1 must be a candidate for manager of the year by making us punch above our ability
If they are better, then how far off actually winning some games are we? Who are our striker targets and are they realistic, will they score goals?
And finally how much would it take to sell Wheater since he seems to be the weakest link through the middle at the mo?
It's all very depressing.... Oh well roll on next week when I'll be awake at 3am yet again praying for a miracle.
C'MON BORO (he screams)
**AV writes: The team falls between two stools at the moment. It was put together to play a particular type of football which was having mixed results (better away from home) and had reached a brick wall because of a lack of physicality and mental toughness.
Now a new manager has come in and tried to get players to operate in a style tactically, physically and mentally they are not really equipped for. Only a few of them look capable of really bridging the culture gap. Hence the need to bring people in who can play the way the boss wants. It could take some time and frankly, it could get worse before it gets better.
I agree with Simon in the USA. We played well the first half and started the second well until their goal...
I have a feeling that Robson will be OK in the middle with O'Neal. I hope Flood is the man for right wing and Johnno on the left. And when fit Rhys could well play in the middle, too. So I see we were enforced already in midfield.
But we (and Wheater) need a 'caldwell' type talker in the defense and a goal scorer. The latter being the big thing. But then GS2 have talked about three more signings this month. So there is some light in the tunnel.
Interesting to see if the three players are a defender, goalie and a striker (or two strikers and a defender). I mean there seems to be a goalie on PL wages who does not fit to our bench anymore...
And I couldn't find a link working to the live blog, either. Which was a pity. Even Boro World was broadcasting Hartlepool's commentary first before they switched on to Bramall Lane. So it's hard to be a Boro supporter.
Up the Boro!
I couldn't get the live blog (is it crocked AV? who's fixing it the Rockcliffe IT guys?)
Anyway, I decided to watch Chelsea systematically dismantle Mr Bruces hastily put together Sunderland side. At half time I read the half time report on the MFC website, and said to myself, "this sounds like the Barnsley game".
So off I go to continue watching the Mackems horror show (not without a little snigger here and there I might add), and just as Bolo gets a consolation for them, I get a Boro SMS, we were one down. I knew then that was us on the end of another defeat.
So I've read the usual reports on here, the MFC site and it strikes me that you could have every weekend off AV.
Just make a couple of match report templates, one for home and one for away, and all you'd have to do is change the opposing team name and team sheets. Job done, because nothing changes.
**AV writes: It has certainlt felt like that most of the past year.
Strachans record is now P12 W2 D3 L7.It is little short of a complete embarassment.
What is more each consecutive failure is a personal humiliation for Mr.Gibson. People talk of getting in new strikers.They have a point but in our last three games we have scored a single fluke goal[Hoyte at Barnsley] and created not a single decent goalscoring opportunity.You could put Drogba and Anelka in this team and they would have to create something for themselves.
Strachan is totally getting the fundamentals of team shape wrong. With a right midfielder on the left[Flood] a right back at left back and a slow left footed central player on the right[Robson] it basically means you cannot drive down the flanks and get any quality into the box because on both sides your personnel are having to check back over.
Add to this one of your two central players Osbourne does not appear to have even heard of passing the ball forward let alone trying to execute it and you can see why we are creating nothing at all.
In my view Digard was disgracefully jettisoned without being given a single chance by Strachan likewise young Bennett.
A team must have shape and balance and have some pace down the sides of the pitch. The one good thing about our team at the start of the season was that we played with pace and skill on the counter attack away from home. With a surgeons precision Strachan has removed the good bits and we are left with sterile dross.
It's not too late Mr Gibson to accept that you have made a big mistake and rectify it before he causes damage that will be totally irreperable.
AV
Where was Rhys Williams yesterday? I've read nothing about him being injured but he wasn't even on the bench yesterday. Was he dropped? Another one in the departure lounge?
**AV writes: We were told he had picked up a knock in training.
I'm sure I saw one of Strachan's midifleders (O'Neil) cross into the opposition half yesterday! I hope Gordon gives them the haridryer treatment. There's no room for that on Planet Gordon.
We've scored in 2 of the last 7 games and GS is keen to stretch that to 2 in 10. Midfielders getting forward will ruin the masterplan.
Apparently wolves have offered 6.5 million for Jinky......sounds good money but if we lose him and O'neil we will truly be in a mess.....oooohhh hum
martin in southampton said:
...and whilst we're on the late seventies anyone notice the similarity between wee Gordon and Rat Scabies, the Damned's erstwhile drummer...and that takes me back to if my memory serves me right to when the Damned played Gaskins - above or very close to the very wonderful Frankie Dee's....and Gaskins burned down the following night.....
I was there!! A marvellous night indeed. The way Strachan is going though, we might as well bring in Rat Scabies himself to manage the team. "Smash It Up" would be a good place to start, while "I Just Can't Be Happy Today" could belt out from the tannoy when the team came on the pitch.
Stockton Red it is already irreperable, in fact it was from the moment we sold Cool Hand Luke.
The more time goes on the more it appears that Gareth was indeed a Scapegoat who was ultimately dealt a bum hand. Despite Gareth's inexperience and bewildering tactics and formations he was getting a lot more from a lot less points wise. Gareth was definitely not the answer but he had a lot more answers than the Stricken incumbent we now have.
I wonder if the Hoops would be interested in a swop deal? Stricken for Mogga? both had far more success in each others leagues and both appear to be more suited from whence they came.
Stockton Red
I suppose it just carries on the Gate approach. Corporal Jones in goal, Yeates on the left, Jinky on the right, as many defenders in central midfield as possible, Caleb Folan on loan, Arca in the squad.
Please bear in mind Digsoft was only evicted from the treatment room not from the match day squad. May as well get someone else to pay his wages whilst he isnt fit.
I totally agree about shape and balance, about playing people in the correct positions. There must be something in the water at Hurworth, I wonder if you stayed at the hotel you would drive on the wrong side of the road after your stay?
I fear there is will still be some more pain to come for the Boro fans so badly let down by their Chairman over the past three and a half years. I suspect Gibbo will let it slide a bit longer before he surfaces from his bunker with a Henry V battlecry speech, 'Rally round the flag boys', 'Band of brothers', 'We are all in this together' and other regurgitated waffle.
The sale of Johnson, O'Neil, Wheater and Williams will bring Gibbo an estimated £15 million either in January or in the summer. Whilst more journeymen will come into the club. The Boro will be lucky to remain in the Championship at this rate.
Stockton Red
I also agree the form has been shocking during Strachans tenure, I just dont think it started when he joined us.
He certainly doesnt get 9 out of 10 thus far nor would his school report say could do better, must would be a better description.
If he brings in another 3 or 4 players and there is no improvement then I will be very worried but not as worried as Gibbo who will have given up on his brave new world and found the other side of the fence no better.
Was there with Pete from Halifax yesterday. I'm sure Strachan has lost the plot already, if he ever had one in the first place. Trying to play with no wingers was a disaster from the start.
Robson is going to be suspended more than he plays as he has this rogue tendency to do stupid things. Flood got stuck in and didn't shirk out of anything, which was good to see. Killen, well the less said the better.
Not sure what GS2 is trying to achieve by getting rid of everyone. Now it appears that Yeates is off to Sheff Utd. Johnson will be next, the whole scenario is a joke, and as usual it is the fans that suffer.
SG get your act together and sort this club out, it is becoming a laughing stock. Wrong choice of Manager in my opinion, and it will come back and bite you on the bottom.
Rant over.....
Now bottom half of the Championship. Have we reach rock bottom yet?
Sell O'Neil at our peril!
I was there yesterday with a close friend who is a Blades season ticket holder, so sat with him and we both endured a dreadful match.Interesting always to hear and listen to how their supporters see the game and view your team.
Apparently it was the worst Blades home performance all season in the first half; ironically a view expressed from behind where I was sat, stated we were a 'dirty side' (music to my ears!!)
Finally driving away from the ground, their host summariser, an ex Boro lad, Keith Edwards thought we tired in the last twenty minutes.
As for our performance we were solid but slower, the trio of signings added little to what we already have. Robson might be of more use in centre midfield. We all had to suffer what is becoming a disturbing habit from Wheater,a weekly howler.
As usual, nothing up front, made worse by the sight of Franks running around the pitch like a puppy which aggravates the feeling of how useless we are in the final third of the pitch. Please can we be spared the sight of fresh face boys pitched against men such as Morgan. Its just cruel !!
Having listened to the match and having seen the highlight at Boro World I think we should have got a point from the Sheffield game.
Yes we lacked the goal but had as many chances as the blades had. After seeing several replays of the only goal I think Killen was at least as much faulty as Wheater. Killen did not follow his man - and did we warn Wheater that the Sheffield player came from behind?
Let's hope we get a good goal taker before February. Up The Boro!
I cant believe the comments on here about the three new players. For God's sake they have only had one game! Give them a chance. Dont forget also Strachan only paid £600,000 for them..A certain Mr Southgate paid £12m for Alves. Enough said
I maybe the only one on here now but I believe Strachan will get this right but we have a lot more pain to go through yet.
Lets get real here the club is in a mess...there is no money...morale and gates at rock bottom..so accept it .. get on with it and we are going nowhere this season. This is a whole new ball game and we have to rebuild from the ashes... Strachan will give us a team we will be proud of but it aint gonna happen just yet.
He is a proud Scot and will not give in. He is totally honest and that is one the things that have been missing at the club for quite sometime. So while we are going through this troubled period lets get behind the club.... there is enough people in the media who give bad impressions of the club and the town without us having a go.
I am Scottish and very proud to be but because Middlesbrough are my local team I support them..if I have the faith then so can you.
This is very hard to take , we should nt be waiting for a penalty to be given for us to salvage a draw.
Midfield- no supply
Strikers- no goals
Its so bad Joy Division now sounds like bouncy holiday music. I know Flash Gordon has not had time or the money Gate had but could Southgate have done any worse?
I spent the afternoon with the other half watching Mamma Mia in Newcastle, so was unaware of the score until after the match had finished.
Suffice to say, it seems that watching a load of women dance around to some 30-year old Abba songs is more enjoyable than watching the Boro at the moment.
Right, it doesn't take much to get me optimistic again, our next 6 fixtures are extremely winnable:
Swansea (h)
Doncaster (a)
Bristol C (h)
Ipswich (a)
Barnsley (h)
Peterborough (h)
So, who knows, maybe the comeback starts on Saturday (how many times have we said that this season?)
Braveheart is absolutely correct. This communal wrist slitting has to stop, so for Gods sake have a word with yourselves. I only hope the players and manager are a bit more positive.
When my dad started off the Ayresome Angels in 1966 the situation was far worse than now and God forbid it gets that bad again. Lets not give the media or anyone else the opportunity to blame US for making things worse.
The one thing that the Angels organisation peddled above anything else was LOYALTY, and that is what's needed now.
Not loyalty to the chairman, the manager, or the players. All these things change through time including the fan base, even the stadium has changed. The one thing that's there all the time is THE CLUB, OUR CLUB, THE BORO. Let us, the current fans, get behind the current team, in numbers, and try OUR best to turn the situation around. Ultimately it's us who will be the losers if we don't.
LOYALTY
Mal from Ingleby
**AV writes: Good shout.
I believe that club are lucky with the support they are receiving, especially the away following. Imagine if what was happening here was 38 miles up the road in Newcastle I think they would be a lot more vocal in showing their displeasure and probably rightly so! It takes two to make things right and and the Boro have been providing with dire results on and off the pitch.
Gibson is still keeping stum and with every passing day it's annoying me more and more, we have questions that need answering and the silence is unbearable!!
Well said, Mal from Ingleby! What about taking a leaf out of your Dad's book? Sign me up if you do because I'm 110% with and behind you!
And to Braveheart and Phil, keep up the positives! We don't see nearly enough of the grubbier side of that coin and I appreciate you fellas flipping it for the rest of us. Reminding us that it is ok to be positive and that it is good for the soul, even when things aren't that rosy for us is a very good thing.
Things could be far worse for us and we'd do well to remember that there are clubs going under because they have bitten off more than they can chew. And there are many more clubs who've yet to reach the point of no return which will become public knowledge in the weeks and months ahead.
Anyhow, I'm absolutely sick to the pit of my stomach of all the vitriolic, poisonous, self-perpetuating negativity out there in the ether.
In the end, this rubbish just brings you down before a ball even gets kicked! What are we doing to ourselves when we start fighting with each other and have such a dim view of things and end up losing sight of the greater scheme of things?
Collective depression has set in within our Footy Community and we need to start the therapy treatment now! Try and pick a positive from everything Boro and share it with the rest of us.
Go on, I'm sure there must be something that made you feel good about yourself?
Gutted!!:
How dare you! Where's your LOYALTY? ;)
So unquestioning "Loyalty" is the new fashion accessory for beleaguered Boro supporters to be wearing is it?
Actually, AV - Mal's shout is a BAD shout. And that's not just a poor French/English pun! It may be OK for a relatively small number of a "Total Immersion" disposition, who's life's sole focus may be entirely Boro.
Most stay-away people are demonstrating where their perfectly reasonable economic priorities lie. And while Boro turn in such abject home performances that those who do turn out can find nothing therein to warm them, it behoves the club to do something about it more than it behoves the supporters to continue to bear it!
If any organisation is taking £30 entrance fee from punters every home performance, they'd better provide something worth watching!
Loyalty? Tell you what - why don't you and Mal just donate your annual salary at the club and tell them to spend it as wisely as they think is reasonable. (Just bear in mind that your annual salary would probably approximate to about a week and a half of Jeremie Aliadiere's wages. Sobering thought is it not?)
Loyalty? Sorry mate! Loyalty went out the window when Sky took over and the game was sold to mercenaries. If that's the game THEY chose to play, then that's the rules we live by!
Loyalty? Sentimental crap! Loyalty is earned and has a basis in respect and mutuality. It's not a divine right based on place of birth nor is it an immovable object!
Loyalty needs a context. Rosie West was loyal to Fred! Mira Hindley was loyal to Ian Brady. Josef Goebbels was loyal to Adolf Hitler and indeed, he was as strong an advocate as you'll find, of loyalty (to Nazism) in his role as Minister of Propaganda. So that made loyalty good did it?
Restore the game to a fairer structure, other than free-marketeering and perhaps I'll then give you loyalty - until somebody breaks the rules in their own favour again - and "loyalty" is again tested!
In the meantime, don't try the moral blackmail approach by asking people to be loyal to mediocrity by continuing to turn out and shell out their £30 each dismal matchday!
Those of us who have withdrawn feel bad enough about it without somebody with a "holier than thou" attitude trying to send us on a guilt trip and telling us how to behave!
Many wouldn't have withdrawn if arguably more loyalty had been shown by the club executive to the fans and engaged them in some sensible level of communication.
**AV writes: I don't think 'loyalty' to the concept of 'our team' implies the kind of unquestioning capitulation you suggest. Newcastle fans for instance have made visible loyalty their brand defining USP - but it doesn't stop them organising a broad front against the owner, nor indeed mobilising a campaign with the support of MPs and the local council around a supporters trust to buy the club.
The relationship between fan and club is a very complex one and the ways people engage in the match equally so. I can remember many times when as fans we have been very, very low and at odds with the club yet the opposition was articulated through a defiant show of support for the team.
For instance, after the season-ticket throwing incident, after the booing had died down the chant went up "you are my Boro". I think that is key. MY BORO. A lot of people believe it will always be their club no matter how bad the management.
Loyalty for the team, a visible focus, can be important in galvanising dissent.
"Gutted!! said:
...Gibson is still keeping stum and with every passing day it's annoying me more and more, we have questions that need answering and the silence is unbearable!!"
White Lies - Nothing To Give:
You talked me to sleep last night
I hadn't felt that sad in years
Your eyes like glass mistakes
They moved me close to tears
You speak those favourite fables
Which I am yet to live
And casually confirm my fears
That I've got nothing to give
I wish I could say
That I've got no regrets
But saying that would be one more
To pile on my desk
I wish I could say that I've clung to time like gold
But as you said goodbye I almost died
I take it back all of it
Those names I called myself
The heroes of my childhood
Like hardbacks on the shelf
I take it back those promises
I made to everyone
I'm falling through a ribbon last
Before I'd learnt to run
I wish I could say
That I've got no regrets
But saying that would be one more
To pile on my desk
I wish I could say that I've clung to time like gold
But as you said goodbye I almost died
I almost died
I almost died
**AV writes: Well, if the football goes belly up we can always start a music forum.
angry-pirate is right that Eindhoven was a pivotal moment and there is a question mark about the thinking of Steve Gibson and Lamb, both in terms of talking seriously to Terry Venables and then appointing Gareth Southgate.
The problem was compounded by the lack of new players being brought in during last January's transfer window and the retaining of Southgate at the end of last season. He had nevertheless created something this season, precarious though it was and as Redcar Red notes was getting a lot more with a lot less. With his removal his creation has imploded and it seems clear that our remaining assets will be sold either this month or in the summer.
The man we have appointed after a casual conversation in the stands at Coventry is not averse to short term stays at football clubs and claims that his desire to see more of the world has subsided and that he has a chance to build something here.
This conflicts somewhat with Gibson's view that we need an immediate return to the premiership. If we don't go up which doesn't look very likely is he really going to want to spend another couple of winters on Teesside working with the likes of the 3 celtic bhoys and what were our reserves at the start of this season?
The 'Boro can't keep really good players, they never could, they always want to go somewhere more attractive - look below at the images from flickr - says it all really. So unless we are going to pay over the odds wages we are going to attract mid table journeyman 2nd division players because once again, that is the team that we are.
The difference now is that two and one from four go up and three go down so question is, are we going to be pushing for the play-offs or avoiding relegation, ether way it stretches out the season I suppose.
Mal from Ingleby is also right that it was a lot worse in 66. And I seem to remember it was the signing of John Hickton that changed the fortunes of the side and didn't he play his early games at right-back? I think we beat Workington 3-2 at home his first game and we didn't look back from there.
That may be proof that one signing can change things although as I've said earlier we will need what Strachan calls leaders through the spine of the team (and I'd assumed Robson and O'Neill would pair up in central midfield) so at least 3 more players required, 2 if O'Neill stays and we go with Coyne for this season.
The Boro are a safe place to put your disappointment. Always were and it seems always will be - for Cardiff at home in the cup 09 see Orient 76 (maybe 75). Will there be a second golden age in my lifetime? hell I hope so but right now it's hard to imagine. This club have succeeded when the manager brings something.
Southgate was always a risk and Strachan , even if he manages to take us up is uninspiring. We need to get McClaren's replacement right and it looks like it is going to take several seasons and at least 3 managers to do that.
Redcar Red
Thank you for a wonderful post!!! You made an insomniac smile at 1.30am.
As for the music - just say thank you.
AV - I was there when The Smiths played the Town Hall in the 80s (1986??) - but in terms of fiity.... Heaven Knows ...
Strachan OUT - well who in god's name would replace him...???
No one in their right mind is going to takeover a poor Championship team who look like they are destined to stay in that division for several seasons to come.
No quality manager is even going to look at Boro now, no decent money to spend, selling the better players and poor crowds.
I hate to say it but Steve Gibson is to blame pure and simple. He may well have used his own cash but in recent years Boro have gone down the pan and a successful businessman like him should have stopped it happening well before it has come to this.
Never mind Strachan out, it should be Gibbo OUT through his poor company management skills of MFC. It sickens me to have said that especialy after all he has done but the time has finally come to say it like it is.
Last posting went missing.
Yet another inept display on saturday against a team that was booed off by its own supporters at half time. Please dont say give the team time to gel or to listen to the words of Strachan "I know what is wrong" that is the 5th time in 12 games he has said this.
Only one win in seven - his record since taking over is abysmal: only two wins in 12. We only have two saleable assets - O'Niel and Johnson - and we have not won many games with them in the team so let them go now and get "somemore" money in, it makes economic sense to do this.
This season is over, and anyone who thinks different, really needs to have a good look at how the club has gone downover, even moreso in the last couple of months. We are still a disjointed team with no fight.
Can you believe we are getting beat on Saturday and Strachan does not bring on "his only centre forward "Bent" who he brought in on loan. Mr Strachan you have been a failure since you came, and you are taking us on a faster downward spiral than we were under Mr Southgate.
Another defeat allbeit I would have been happy with a draw from this one.
Mal the Angels song with the part saying, WE NEVER MISS A MATCH,could be catching and build up a bit of togetherness but Riverside Angels in the same tune wont go. How about COME AND JOIN THE ANGELS DOWN BY THE RIVERSIDE or something to that effect.
Thats why I am working my butt off in SA and not living at Wembly by the way.
Seriously a rallying cry would be good perhaps a membership which gets you in a certain part of the ground which will generate the noise,
I stated awhile back I was hoping the Chairman has a long term plan to take the club forward eventually on both a competetive and financial footing.
I would rather take a few lickings now if we can emerge as a viable premiership club in the future. I can now see he has started that on the financial side of things. The big earners will be gone and replaced hopefully with solid pros,on a lot less money but are willing to put a shift in.
The budget for next season will be based on crowds of 15000,anything above that will be a bonus, we will get the team we can afford. So thanks to all the armchair fans, whether they are right in their minds or not, everyone is part of the problem and the SOLUTION. Keep the Faith
I've no problem with most of what Richard said and it's a perfectly reasonable position to take - I would say that the majority of people who advocate 'blind faith' or 'loyalty' are far from being altruistic but are merely demonstrating a selfishness for the need to feed their habit of being a Boro fan and wanting the feeling of the high gained from victory.
It sounds like they believe that those who stay away during the tough times are hoarding their cash and waiting in the wings - ready to turn up and reap the rewards of their hard toil once the club is back on track
Richard's right, the game has long since sold it's soul to the money men - where is the local identity of trying to relate to a group of transient players who will only come to unfashionable clubs like Boro unless the money is indecent.
So it's not the fault of those who complain and stay away - it's the fault of those who run the club and make terrible decisions on our behalf. The stay away fans are just a symptom of bad decisions - such as the £30m wasted in the last couple of years on the likes of Alves, Mido, Digard, Emnes and Hoyte - who all came for the money but offered little in return.
So whilst football clubs are owned and run by a dictatorship, with no involvement by supporters, then the only active way for disgruntled fans to demonstrate their displeasure is to stay away.
Maybe the coming financial storm in football will change things for the better - perhaps more like what we have in Germany where all clubs have to be owned by supporters trusts by law.
**AV writes: The sooner the better.
In response to GT. We only had 9,000 for the cup against Man C (yes I know the weather is bad). However, the gates have been dropping week after week and after the showing on saturday I dont think there will be 15,000 there.
In fact I dont think there will ever be 15,000 there again, if we have to continuously be served up with the rubbish we are getting at home.
Unbelieveable that the same bloggers who constantly sniped and called for Gareth's head, now suggest that 'loyalty' is the way forward.
You got what you wanted, GS1 out and a complete overhaul of a team that just required some tinkering with. The idea that all players have to be leaders etc is a complete myth that GS2 has fed and you have woofed down.
Skill is also required and that is being replaced. Interestingly every player from GS1's days still seem to be scapegoats... neither Hoyte, Jones, Taylor (though I do accept Arca) are the devil incarnate. But until all are driven out, like Southgate, it seems no one will rest.
Funnily, at Sheffield Utd Coyne scuffed a few kids rather comically and our crowd decided this merited a good sing of his name rather than the usual bile that Jones has to suffer.
I am puzzled as to why Gibbo listened to you all though, he seemed fairly sensible until then. Job done, congratulations.
AV - please tell me that the paper talk about Boro offering Nicky Weaver a contract is just paper talk.
Saturday's match was almost a repeat of the first shocking game of this season until Sheff U spoilt it by scoring. Why was Johnson on the bench? He is surely fit or not fit.
C'Mon Boro!
Still, we could be Montrose fans. 18 games into the season 0 wins. 4-2 up at home with 18 mins to go but they still manage to conjure up defeat by conceding 2 goals in the last five.
So I have just been on the Montrose supporters boards and they are saying the following.
‘We are the walking dead. Morton was THE pivotal moment, the end of an era and the beginning of an error.’
‘We bring an experienced Manager Shambles! We are going down!’
‘Get your act together and sort this club out, it is becoming a laughing stock. Wrong choice of Manager in my opinion and it will come back and bite you on the bottom.’
‘LOYALTY’
‘Another defeat albeit I would have been happy with a draw from this one’
Their mood seams very familiar to ours so I can only conclude we have now hit rock bottom.
Cheer up guys, what’s the worst that can happen…………
Dear Steve,
Sorry to be such a bore again, but I'm still waiting for you to offer some explanation and your honest appraisal of why the club is where it is.
As the chief executive, indeed owner,it's surely incmbent upon you to talk to the supporters of the club. Where and why do you think the situation became so bad; what in your view what was the catalyst?
Is it entirely down to you, or perhaps the supporters are to blame somewhat for failing to maintain the type of numbers the club became used to for a period, which led to the further expense of increasing the stadium capacity, a daft mistake with hindsight wasn't it? What mistakes do you think you have made, which may have been instrumental in the current decline of the Boro?
At what stage did you realise that the 'dream' couldn't be sustained in an area like Teesside? When Keith Lamb talked about the area having the team it could afford, was that a swipe at stay away 'supporters'? Did the club misjudge the level of 'real' support?
By and large your stewardship of the Boro has been brilliant, there is absolutely no doubt about that. However, do you think under all the circumstances, that you cannot take the club on, indeed, financial commitments apart, do you want to?
If so, what, realistically and honestly is your short and longer term prognosis for the Boro? Please talk to us in an open, honest way, we can take it Steve.
Oh yes, and please, if at some stage you do put your cards on the table, please don't just blame the global economic situation, as pertinent and serious as it is for all of us.
Steve, I'm writing this as a blog rather than as a letter to you, because as a supporter I'm sure you read 'Untypical Boro', the only real forum for Boro supporters.
We have got a tiny squad with lots of injuries, what is the point of getting rid of Yates. He was man of the match in one of Strachans 2 wins!
Is it possible for Boro to get back into the play offs?
Well the most remarkable effort to make the play offs was Crystal Palace back in 03-04. In the bottom 5 at Christmas they went on a great run to finish sixth and win promotion via the play offs.
They finished with 73 points. Home form was average but 11 away wins and most notably the contribution of 31 goal Andrew Johnson was key.
Palace’s final and Boro’s current stats
Home
W D L
10 8 5
4 2 6
Away
W D L
11 2 10
5 3 5
GD +11 boro +4
The play offs are not yet unreachable but are getting further away with every week. Oh how we could do with a 31 goal striker.
And as we all know getting to the play offs really aren’t much of an achievement. You have to WIN them!!
We have a good ground, great training facilities, excellent academy a good chairman and the sort of manager who is made for the Boro. We just need to be patient and give the manager as much support and resources as we can.
The problem with modern day media is that it provides an ideal forum for the 'cranks', obsessives and the socially dysfunctional who text and email saying Strachan is COMPLETE failure ..... Wenger has got to go .... Hughes deserves to get the sack .....
For these people life must be a state of perpetual unhappiness and unrelenting pessimism (which cheers me up no-end !)
I do wish Gordon would resort to his real personality - i.e. let's hear exactly what he thinks . A bit of straight talking would do us the world of good. I realise it's risky having a go at players so why doesn't he 'beat up' the local press, the FA ..... ?
**AV writes: I think after a stony start GS2 has found a kind of detente with the local press now. Not that he has turned into a talkative pussycat.
If Johnson stays until the summer it will be a double edged sword. As our most creative player his loss would make it even harder than it already is but we could do with some money from his sale to strengthen.
But if we sold him would we get that much more than we would by compensation in the summer? Not an expert on the figures but what we lose in playing terms by him going should offset any loss of cash.
We certainly need more players to bolster the squad though losing Yeates seems careless. Shawky and Digsoft were neither here nor fit so getting them off the wage bill was a Brucie bonus
The loss of Williams to injury to join Aliadiere, Pogi, Hines, Bates, Taylor, Emnes has weakened the squad and even if they were available it is a moot point if the team would be any stronger.
Where we are in the table is probably a fair reflection of our strength at the moment.
We should have taken advantage of the bad weather to go on an unbeaten run.
Look at Darlo - their undefeated since dec 12th. How many other teams in the NE can beat that!
If money is the root of everything that is wrong with the game, how come Boro were perpetual under achievers for most of the second half of the 20th century ? It’s too easy to blame money as the root malaise in English football.
There is more than money and there always has been. There are a handful of clubs that have always been among the elite in English football and that will never change. From time to time some less fashionable team gets to flirt with success and silverware. That hasn’t really changed in the SKY years either.
I get a little disheartened when I read that people “blame” Steve Gibson for the current predicament at the club. You know, he might just have saved the club (again). Look at Portsmouth, West Ham even Liverpool (who were themselves once a mediocre and under achieving side, and maybe they will be again) and ask yourself do you really want to see your club on the financial brink .... I know I would rather not want to see the gates padlocked at The Riverside.
Maybe a symbolic padlock and chain should be permanently sculptured onto the old gates from Ayresome Park, as a permanent reminder of how bad things really were once upon a time. Except that I can’t abide Chelsea, I would shudder to think what will happen to them once Comrade Abramovitch either gets bored, or needs to move his wealth elsewhere.
No team has a divine right to be in the Premiership. Every team will, over a period, have some glory, some mediocrity and some pain. It’s all relative where that glory and mediocrity and pain is. Just now we have lost the right to be in the Premiership.
Maybe it wasn’t quite in Steve Gibson’s plans to get relegated (he is after all a fan first of all and no fan wishes for relegation), but it’s happened. However, the club haven’t gone bankrupt so we still do have a team and so we still do have a future and we still have something to hope for.
The only thing I would blame the money for in football, is in giving [some] fans a false and totally unrealistic expectation of immediate and perpetual success. I believe and always will believe the Boro will be successful again. I hope it can happen this season, but if it doesn’t, there is always next season.
I’ve posted about this before and after Mal’s entry from yesterday evening feel the need to do so again. Being a fan is all about expectation and hope for success. That’s where the buzz is. If it was all just about expectation of success, then it wouldn’t be anywhere near as intoxicating. I’d be a Boro fan before being a Man U fan, ( or a Liverpool fan, or an Arsenal fan etc etc) any day of the week. They don’t know what they are missing. Well said Mal.
I just don't know which position we need to strengthen first!
We have defenders that cant defend, and strikers that can't score, and even if we had Torres and Drogba we still couldn't score as we lack midfielders that can put the ball in a position for them to have a shot.
It seems we have just 3 positions of the 1st eleven sorted - centre midfield, right back and one of the central defender slots.
Following that, and starting from the back we need: a replacement for Jones, a left back as Hoyte surely cant be a long term solution there and Poggi should be either center back or leaving soon, an organising centre back to replace Wheater, as another poster mentioned "Wheater's Weekly Howler" has lost us more games and more points this season than anything else, and the sooner he is gone the better. Seeing you single him out in your blog (which is unusual for you AV) I take it you'd agree with this.
Moving into midfield we need defensive midfield cover for new boy Robson, attacking midfield if O'Neill goes, Right Midfield & right midfield cover, left midfield + cover if Johnson & Yeates go.
We also need at least 2 more talented strikers.
that leaves us with jones, Wheater, Arca, all the left backs, Williams, Emnes, Aliadiere who either really aren't good enough / can't play the style of football we are now facing, and None of which are good enough for the Bench other than replacement for injuries as none can come on to change a game.
Yeates out as GS2 doesn't fancy him for some reason, Osbourne and Bent going back, and possibly Poggi, O'Neill and Johnson gone now or at the end of the season...
Other than Robson I'm struggling to name anyone else who GS2 wants as his first choice in any position on the pitch who will still be with us come end of the season, and this complete lack of a team let alone the cash to rebuild it will have a negative effect on influencing quality new players to come here.
And for those that class this as disloyal - I'd still think of myself as loyal, but at the moment I'm loyal to the idea of the Boro, as the loyalty to the players, coaching staff, management or owners and even the bloomin redesigned badge has been abused / misplaced, still I think the tea lady might be OK...
SmogOnTheTyne, of course statistically on paper making the playoffs doesn't appear too difficult - afterall, Sheff Utd in 6th have dropped as many points as they've won.
Though, our position is a false one in relation to our current form (i.e. we're much higher than our form of the last ten games suggests)
Question is: Can Boro achieve 75 points? or 43 points from our next 21 games?
That would probably mean we can only afford to lose another 4 games, with 4 drawn and 13 won - Any takers? Thought not...
To Ian Gill,
Gibbo did not give up on the brave new world, he had little choice but to leave. Our exit strategy from the big money days could have been done better, but it did have to be done.
Smogonthetyne now in Nunthorpe
Theoretically and mathematically Boro can of course still make the play offs, but realistically they won't..not a chance. Even in quite a poor league light years away from the premiership, Boro isn't good enough.
On past performance, which current players could hold their own in the top flight? I'd suggest probably O'Neill, Johnson and Poggi.
Like Boro, other teams such as Norwich, Charlton, Southampton, Sheffield Wednesday, etc, etc, etc who have all tried to live the dream have found it more and more difficult to compete.
For a time, Boro did hold their own, mostly by pushing the boat out and paying,by their standards,exorbitant wages to attract better players. We know the club couldn't sustain the model and I'm not sure why they ever thought they could, although at least Steve Gibson gave it a go.
Most seem to consider Eindhoven to have been the watershed, McClaren leaving and the appointment of Southgate, despite Steve Gibson's talk of a world class manager and the attempt to appoint Martin O'Neil. I guess we will never understand how and why, when so much was still going for the club, that such a disasterous appointment in Souhgate, who I loved as a player and a bloke was given the job at such a time.
Steve Gibson is a fan as well as the chief and therefore surely had the same reservations as most others..a gamble to far and as an astute business man, a decision most of us will never understand.
Sorry to diversify, Smog on the Tyne etc and its good to see you and other glass half full supporters hanging in there, but isn't the simple truth now that we are just another middling championship side who like so many before, and in future, couldn't sustain the dream?
In GS1 we had a manager who sadly was not equipped to turn the club around, but who had passion for the club. In GS2, who should know how to turn this club around, but sadly doesn't seem to give jot about this club - it's just another job and income to him!! So now we have a manager to match many of the players!!
GS2's sarcastic and laid back interviews were amusing to start with, but now they are wearing thin and seem to show a lack of urgency or commitment to the fight we have on our hands.
When is SG going to break his silence and tell us all what he intends to do to put this club back on a winning run and survive to fight another year in this league?.
Well Richard I can't quite understand the personal vitriol but hey, I can take it.
I believe that loyalty is not a NEW fashion accessory but more a very old one. Also I don't confuse loyalty with faith (blind or otherwise) as I have very little faith this situation can be quickly turned round and agree with most of the more 'negative' (for want of a better expression) comments on this blog, including yours.
However this does not prevent me from being loyal to my football club.
I have a mate of long standing (40+ yrs) who emigrated to Oz in 1974 and now lives in Melbourne. He's had a season ticket since Ayresome Park and shows no sign of giving it up, even though he gets to only 2 or 3 games a season and is as brassed off as you and I.
It's interesting that the only people who can't understand why are the Melbourne Poms. The Roos just look upon it as showing support and loyalty to his club. But hey, he can afford it so maybe that fact dilutes the 'loyalty' claim, not sure about that though.
The Boro are not 'life's sole focus' for me, I do have a life, although Middlesbrough Football Club does form a significant part of it and has done for some 50 yrs.
I can well understand anyone's 'economic priorities', I have them too, but so far they have not reached the level of my SC. To be honest, it's very doubtful that they ever will as having been at for so long it would be like hacking off a limb.
As for donating my annual salary Richard, well as I'm retired I don't have one but don't feel sorry for me as I'm not exactly on my 'uppers', but my wife does buy the cheapest toilet paper. I can say though that every year my season card is a major purchase.
I agree with every word you say about the obscene level of players wages. What was Lawrence Delallio's comment on football? The Andrex Premiership! Soft and unneccessarily expensive - A spot on comment and apologies for another toilet paper reference.
I've a lot of sympathy with the view that 'Sky' taking over was a sort of 'sell out' by football. Well our club embraced the good times of the last few years by using that Sky money and we all cheered, so I guess we are stuck with it.
As for your 'loyalty needs a context' comment, I have to say, this is The Boro we are talking about, not the world's great 'Anti Christ's'.
I never intended to blackmail anyone, morally or otherwise, or adopt a 'holier than thou' attitude, or make anyone feel guilty. I just tried to offer another view, maybe in an unsophisticated sledge hammer way, a sort of reminder that we've been here before and come back and we will again (I hope).
Sorry for disagreeing with the general view Richard but my intention was to divert the focus of our support or potential support away from Chairman/manager/ players and towards what we as fans have always supported, THE CLUB, OUR CLUB. In the wider context of time it will hopefully be there for future generations to support.
Up The Boro
Mal from Ingleby
We sack a manager who was 1pt off the top! Now we have a expereinced manager who has took us from the top to the of middle of The Championship!
There Is no excuses about they're not his type of players and he doesn't have time. He knew what he came into he knew how the club had little funding for players, he knew everything about this club or he wouldn't of took the job!
Gordon Strachan, you are a football manager. I thought experienced managers could turn brass into gold! After you have left this club In shreds It's ok he can take his money and run and get another job at another club and ruin that too.
Football Managers should be vetted properly I would of gave It to a non-League manager because If we dont stop the rot thats where we will be! Oh how back In August Southgate had till December and how we were all going on saying If he's nowhere near the top he's out. We should of let him finish the project not butt In halfway through on a win and sack him!
We will always say wonder how we could of gone up if Southgate had been here.It will go down In Boro folktales In years to come!
In an earlier comment it was said that 1966 was the bottom and as far as was concerned on a cold day around the middle of November I went to my last match for 3 years. It was diabolical a defeat at home by Grimsby Town and if I remember correctly that placed us in the bottom 4 of Division 3.
To win promotion that season seemed impossible that night but they did it so who knows what will happen as the season progresses.
I will admit that the club had a mental breakdown when they signed Alves but I suppose the fact that he is a Brazilian blinded everyone at the club.
Borobythesea and Werder
I too don’t think we look like making the play offs. What I was trying to say was it is still possible and some team often comes from nowhere to grab a place. I hope it is us as we have the potential to turn it around. New Manager, New Players, New style of play it might all click.
Our Current form is atrocious but look at the starts Forest and Swansea had. Sheff Utd couldn’t win for ages but are now on a good run. Form is temporary if a good run could be put together then the play offs are still a realistic possibility.
Other teams will soon have Fixture pile ups, Injuries, suspensions. Can the small squads at Leicester and Palace sustain their form?
The sad thing is we are going to have to pull out some good form but only to sneak in the play offs. Not a good season. What we need now is for the team to give us reason to believe and not rely on stats and good will.
Massive game at the weekend. We have to beat a play off rivals Swansea. Have to.
JP
Gibbos Brave New World was referring to his low cost, largely home grown, speedy, young team with continuity at the helm.
The replacement with GS2 and grizzled pros is the other side of the fence.
I also believe he had to follow a lower cost model and that thought started even as Eindhoven approached.
Powmill, Yes there have always been 'bigger' clubs, but what having the Premier League has done (along with the Champions League) is to make the wealth gap much greater and made it virtually impossible for a well run small club to have any chance of competing with their hugely bloated squads.
For example, in the 15 years before the PL arrived 18 different clubs finished in the top three (which is practically equivalent to a whole league) - in the 17 years since the PL formed only 10 different clubs have finished in the top three.
Also, if you exclude the first year of the PL (before the cash started to kicked in) then it's only eight teams - with only six teams making up the top three during the last 14 years (it would have been only five but Leeds managed third once before imploding under the debt created achieving that).
So yes clubs like Boro were always at a bit of a disadvantage but if they were well run with a good manager then they had every chance of having few seasons at the top before their players and were cherry picked.
The situation at the Boro is by no means 'disastrous'. The team and the performances could be transformed with 4 signings.
It doesn't have to be these 4 players but to illustrate the point if we bought:
1. Ryan Bertrand left back (Chelsea/Reading).
2. Chris Burke (Cardiff).
3. Igursson centre half (Reading).
4. Snodgrass forward (Leeds).
We would get to the playoffs and have a good chance of winning. That's the real beauty of football it's finely balanced, it doesn't take much to get you going again.
See Stewart had another good game for the Villa - I'm really looking forward to seeing him flourish in South Africa. I think he is going to be a star and as long as he stays fit I'm certain he'll be in Capello's team.
I can almost hear the comments from the pundits - 'He's got a lot quicker since he left Middlesbrough' - 'He's got a lot tougher since he left Middlesbrough ....' 'His right foot has improved since he left Midd...." "Downing eyes have got a lot bluer since ...
The same people who have been saying Lennon, Joe Cole, Wright Phillips, Bentley should play ahead of him will have to eat their words.
Martin O'Neill will stick up for him thats for sure
Not discounting money, the manipulation and hype from Sky/the Murdoch press and the domination of the big four but there is another problem in the game alive and well on this blog - the ridiculous levels of pompous self importance of some fans.
It used to be that people worked during the week and turned up on Saturday to support their team ina simplistic way, either cheer or boo, enjoy the day out and go home.
Now everyone is a tactician, a scout, a nutriotionist, a PR guru, a contracts lawyer, a social scientist, a business strategist with a working knowledge of football finance and the books of Bulkaul and they never switch off 24/7 and instead bore anyone who will lkisten on phone-ins and message boards like this (Sorry Av).
Fans have to put their hands up an accept that it is not just Sky that create the hype but it is their own constant over analysis, political theorising, conspiracy theories, speculation and it must be said, total bull and has created a monster.
On this thread we have uberfans slating people for naively wanting to support their team by turning up and cheering instead of calling for economic boycotts and bringing down the chairman and coming up with some kind of revolutionary model for supporter ownership. What pompous infantile nonsense.
Let people support the club however they like. Besides, how do fans benefit from inflicting financial damage on a club we already know are struggling for money?
Someone from another planet even said that fans who want to see their team win are showing "selfishness for wanting the feeling of the high gained from victory" and practically blamed them for all the ills of the past few years.
What pseudo-scientific half-baked psycho-babble stupidity is this? I thought wanting to see your team win was what support was about. Are there really people (presumably unselfish people who are principled and pure and politically correct) who go to games to see the team lose. Silly me.
Some people, in non-academic terms, really need to "have a word with themselves."
croft on tees wiggy said: " Look at Darlo - their undefeated since dec 12th. How many other teams in the NE can beat that!"
Newcastle ... undefeated since 20th October 2009
.... had to get this in BEFORE game tonight v WBA!!!
Southgate was in the job for three years; Strachan has been in charge for three or four months.
Let's try and keep things in perspective: we're two wins away from the play-off spots at the moment and the season is far from over.
At the end of the season there will be time for an accurate assessment of the team's progress under the new manager. At the moment, however, Strachan is trying to deal with an injury crisis and is in the process of replacing people like Digard and Shawky.
I'm still confident that we'll see a much-improved Boro in the second-half of the season. Keep the faith.
Judging by your comments, I suspect Mr Average is a badly disguised pseudoname for Mr Mean - though I wish you'd read other people's posts more carefully before going off on one and misquoting them to help justify your own apparent pompous self importance.
I should mention again that the idea of having clubs owned by supporters trusts is not regarded as theories of the kindergarten over here in Germany, but the sustainable model for ensuring the supporters have a healthy involvement in the way in which THEIR local clubs are run.
Also, I never suggested that fans should inflict financial damage on their clubs (I'm sure the clubs are more than capable of doing that on their own) but they have the right not to attend if they no longer find what is on offer palatable without being treated as traitors by those who believe not obsessively attending every game possible is wrong.
Nor did I suggest that fans who want to cheer on their club were to blame for the ills of the club. The 'selfishness' tag is merely stating the obvious that there are fans who's life revolves around their club because it make them feel good and not because they are showing community spirit.
Anyway, it's always interesting to see how some people are ready to try and smother debate when they don't like what they hear. Though I recall somebody said earlier that Steve Gibson probably reads these boards - I wonder if deep down he is also just an Average fan who doesn't like criticism of the club.
Back again! A long trip to the frozen north, and a fear that there would be no easy way back (13 hours behind the wheel in the ice and snow, given the odd stop and a few times when there were enforced spells of inactivity as traffic was halted for lengthy periods). Never thought being snowed into a pub, as opposed to being on the way home, could be so appealing. Should have stayed in the pub!
Of course, for Jarkko, this would have been a typical early Spring drive, not a trip to the Arctic. Frozen waterfalls....lines of conked out HGV's....groups of frozen deer looking menacingly at us in our warm car as we inched along beside them through the snow. I'm sure we passed an exhausted Father Christmas, his work done for another year, on his way back to the frozen wastes to recuperate.
I've missed no football. I was phoned by the club to say my ticket was activated for the Man City FA Cup game (about 90 minutes before the starting whistle) but couldn't have got back to Teesside until just shy of midnight so would have missed the game unless I had possessed a rocket. In fact I'm not sure what has been offered recently by the Boro for public consumption could be described by purists as "football".
Anyway, the real question is not about me or about the supporters. It is about what the vision of the club's management is, and what action is intended to put right the problems that our manager says (in post match interviews) he can see, even if he doesn't elaborate.
In the final analysis it is wholly wrong to criticise the "customer". If Kellogg's produced an inedible Corn Flake that customers refused to buy, it wouldn't be within the power of the company to sack the general public for refusing to hand over their cash. It would be a selection of management that would be going unless a product could be presented to a public willing to purchase. Otherwise, the company would go out of business.
I could be an optimistic, flag-waving, foam-sniffing Corn Flake lover, or a pessimistic, glass half empty chicken runner who was always unsure whether breakfast cereals would really take over from a decent cooked breakfast. But if the cereal company went out of business, there would be no choice left open to either side of the argument.
We could do with some leadership, and fairly quickly. While we wait, it would be helpful if potential customers stopped fighting amongst themselves.
**AV writes: Welcome back Dormo. I was getting a bit worried about you and watching the Weather Doomsday Ice Hell News Specials carefully for any reference to a Teessider found hypothermic in his tent, hands frozen to an empty two litre bottle of Glen Sounness
That was an interesting post from Werdermouth about the top 3 in the Premiership. I can remember the days when it was normal for the likes of Ipswich, QPR, Watford etc. to finish in the top three. Will that ever happen again?
The Bundesliga is much more interesting. You get different teams challenging for the title each year. Bayern Munich are the only team that are always there or thereabouts.
I am getting a bit confused about the blog.
I dont go to every match so does that make me a fan or supporter?
I go to matches to support the team and have never booed so does that make me a foammie?
I come on here and make comments about the quality of the football does that make me a chicken runner?
I dont make comments the financial situation because I dont know the facts so does that mean I have blind faith or no faith?
I make comments about square pegging, the fact we cant keep players fit for more than a couple of games at a time, bizarre substitutions and formations. I really must have a stern word with myself.
I am accused of being prescient if I mention comments made before.
I just thought this was a medium to discuss all things Boro, clearly I have misunderstood the purpose of the blog.
Maybe it is Vics fault and we should all be profiled and fitted into separate groupings who would have their own individual blogs.
**AV writes: Maybe I should do a big on-line survey, do the number-crunching and create a huge venn diagram to see where all the foamies, rusties, fathiests, ra-ras, square-peggies, doom&gloomies, economic fatalist, Prem Junkies, post-Juninho bangwagoners Gibsonians and Slavenistas all intersect.
In The past I've been a plaudit of foriegn investment but have now come to the conclusion that this is not the answer to our current woes! - see Portsmouth etc.
GS1 and GS2 are not responsible for our position at this moment in time niether is SG and as much as this hurts me neither is Lamby.
Many blogs and posts have pin pointed our decline since the exit of Steve Mac after our Premiership, Carling and Euro success.
A "Club Before Country" mentality, at the time, just might, just might have spun out a different story and destiny and still seen us in the top flight!
Hear hear Mr Average.
Extracted from Wikapedia:
"A fan, aficionado, or supporter is someone who has an intense, occasionally overwhelming liking and enthusiasm for a sporting club, person (usually a celebrity), group of persons, company, product, activity, work of art, idea, or trend.
Fans of a particular thing or person constitute its fanbase or fandom. They often show their enthusiasm by starting a fan club, holding fan conventions, creating fanzines, writing fan mail, or promoting the object of their interest and attention."
I don't think a lot of the fans on here have an intense liking and enthusiasm.
GET REAL, GET BEHIND THE BORO
Just watched the Geordies v W.B.A.2-2 and a very entertaining game of football.
Quite frankly both of those teams look an absolute street ahead of us at present in every aspect of the game.
Richard wrote:
"Josef Goebbels was loyal to Adolf Hitler and indeed, he was as strong an advocate as you'll find, of loyalty (to Nazism) in his role as Minister of Propaganda. So that made loyalty good did it?"
Godwin's Law strikes again.
1. I watched the NUFC v WBA game with a mate at the Putrid Pheasant. I can say that both of us agree with the comment of Stockton Red at 10.18pm. It was an exciting game (admittedly I got in just before half time) and a real game of football. More fun there than I have seen at the Riverside all season.
2. I spent some time discussing the blog with my wife after reading earlier comments. Mythbuster answered the question. Neither of us could remember "Godwin's" name but we both knew what we meant during our discussion. However we still look forward to Richard's regular contributions which are often well thought out. It isn't compulsory to agree with him, but variety is the spice of life.
3. Next time I might just send a comment based on my own views. Wives can't control everything....surely?
I have read all of the comments made above and on the Evening Gazette pages and I have passed my own comments too. Everyone of us are entitled to our own opinions.
How many people out there have been for an interview for a job and they have been told you are on a 3 month probation period? The reason for this is that the boss will know in that time wether you are good at your job or not. Well Mr Strachan if I was your boss you would be out.
We did not have all that good a team to start with but you have decimated it even further (was this under instruction from your bosses?). Your selections have been rubbish, your loans have been rubbish, your results from 3 months have been rubbish. your management in ENGLISH football was rubbish. Your weekly comments are becoming the same old rubbish. In fact your total work rate at the BORO so far has been rubbish.
So to all the writers out there wanting "loyalty" "Keep the faith" etc etc When the present BORO set up give us something to warrant these requests then the supporters will give this.
I have been a supporter since 1958 and a season ticket holder since 1975. I have seen the good and bad times I have seen players come and go. So without any roses coloured glasses Strachan at the present time is the worst manager we have had (I did not like Southgate either, but he was not a qualified manager) and Strachans team is the worst BORO team of all time. I stand by these comments.
Stockton Red -
WBA looked streets ahead of us on 19th September.
Eddie Fletcher -
I think the club would have restructured the team whether MacMoses stayed or not. The highly paid and ageing members in the squad hadnt been doing it for a season and a half in the league. It is the process of managing that cost reduction that caused the current difficulties.
Reading all the blogs it seems there is not much faith in Gordon. Even Look North last night had a pop at him.
As you know I have said he will get it right but I think in all fairness it is time Gibson came out and said Strachan is here for the long term while he builds his own team.
But fans are very impatient and Strachan is getting stick from all quarters and I fear if saturday is a bad result then the question will be AV can Gibson hold his nerve?
For some reason you don't seem to see much evidence of Godwin's law over here in Germany, though I wonder if there's a law that exists for the point at which someone quotes from the dictionary to try and prove an argument - if not then maybe it could be called Keenog's law.
Anyway, if I could risk invoking this law then here are a couple of definitions from the Cambridge Online dictionary
1. Supporter - someone who wants a particular team to win and might show it by going to watch them play (thousands of supporters have travelled to London for the cup final)
2. Fan - to make worse; to encourage bad emotions or behaviour to get worse (e.g. the newspapers deliberately fanned the public's fears of losing their jobs).
Erm, I think I may have inadvertently pulled out the wrong definition of fan - No doubt there are better definitions - but I'm quite happy to call myself a Boro supporter on the basis of the definition above.
So for all those supporters who are struggling to watch the current horror show on display at the Riverside...
GET REAL; GET BEHIND THE SOFA
Werdermouth
In view of the dwindling crowds at the Riverside do you think it worthwhile to remove seats and fit sofas?
They could serve a dual purpose. When the Boro are playing their turgid football the fans can sit and have a snooze but when the opposition get a set piece, attack or the match enters the infamous red zone they can hide behind them.
Since Strachan took over our results have been nearly identical to the bottom team Peterboro. Infact we couldnt beat them.
We'd better find some money and buy some decent players soon as the writing is on the wall. Getting rid of Yeates to a rival on the cheap is a big mistake.
Dave Connor:
Dave don't cross reference everything in life with your work experience - "if he was was in my job he would be on 3 months probation ..." Your job/work MIGHT be rubbish and you are then 'baselining' everything using your shit life experience.
Come on now - aren't being a bit unfair and overreacting when you say Gordon is the worst manager with the worst results and the 'gingerist' hair .... ?
Keep in mind he's been here 3 months and inherited a team that is forged in previous managers image. You also seem to be softening in your assessment of Gareth now that you have a new target. I remember all those posts in capital letters ...."SOUTHGATE -FOR GOD SAKE GO NOW IF YOU HAVE ANY DIGNITY...."
Gordon Strachan is exactly what the Boro need- a clear thinker, a hard worker, an articulate straight talking knowledgable football man who chose to come to the Boro when I think he could have held out for a 'bigger' club.
Things could be worse, at least we are not in Man Utd's position. They might be the 'biggest' most famous, global brand in football but they HAD to sell Ronaldo, they had to let Tevez go, Rooney is going to be saying adios shortly and even after that they will still have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana skin.
We Boro supporters have a good idea what the position is i.e. we have not got the financial resources we used to have .. can't afford another Ravenelli... but we have got a good stadium, training ground.. academy..etc etc and Gordon Strachan.
Dave - lighten up, after reading your post I was beginning to feel like a Liverpool supporter.
I sense 4 wins on the trot - £20 on Swansea game with the winnings going the Doncaster game and the lot going the Bristol game culminating in a trip to Ipswich where I can celebrate in front of that poseur Keane.
AV, what I really fail to understand is that Gibson gave the reason for sacking Southgate as being that the team we have is better than the results and we should be doing better than we are.
He felt that with the players we have, our results had been deceptive and we should be doing well. Now he is allowing Strachan to pull that very same co called underachieving team apart and bring in new ones.
How come the team was good enough to be doing better with Southgate, yet according to Strachan is lacking in so many areas he is going to bring in up to eight or nine players when he is finished?
Killen, after signing for us, criticised Mowbray for saying he is going to bring in 10 new players to Celtic which isn't good man management. Strachan has done the very same to us, constantly undermining the players and telling them they're all babies who need new, experienced recruits to come in and hold their hand.
How must Gibson be feeling now? He thought under Southgate our team was underachieving and should be doing better. Under Strachan the team is rubbish and needs replacing. I wonder if he imagined this to be the case when he appointed Strachan?
dave connor -
I understand what you mean. But I think the 3 month probation period must be counted from January when the window started. Anyway in three months the employee will only see if you are REALLY interested in the job in question and that you are not a boozer.
Only after a year or 18 months can anything proper be judged. So please give GS2 some time to adjust his own team. What can he do before a proper goal scorer arrives? Of course one must come before February or ...
Up the Boro - be positive!
phew!!!.... Newcastle ... STILL undefeated since 20th October 2009
Following the death of his father last week Peter Lovenkrands made himself available for selection last night....40,000 shared his grief when he walked onto the pitch... and 40,000 his tears of joy when he popped in the equaliser. A true professional... well done Peter and well done to both teams for serving up a thrilling advertisement for Championship football.
mmmmmm? ... when are the Boro going to join the party??... soon I hope!
I do like a good stat and the one showing our form = Peterborough’s is spot on.
This leads me to some questions. Is the team underperforming? Should our squad see finishing lower mid table in the chimpship a fair return for the players or are we underachieving and can we do better? If so, how much better can we do?
Can we reach the play offs? Would that be a good achievement for our squad or would that be an under achievement?
Chances are the team will look different again by this weekend, and the weekend after, so as much as I think Strachan has been a disaster and the team has continued to look poor under his charge, you can't really judge him until February, when he's made his signings and has a settled first 11 he thinks is good enough.
I'm looking at Donnie away on the 26th as a pointer of what our team will look like at the end of the season.
In response to scoredraw.
I am a charted quantity surveyor I have been in employment since leaving college in 1962 and I still am. I have never been out of work once in my life and nor do I have a sad life.
I expressed only that most jobs over the years have a three month probation period. Please read my comment in the context that it was written.
Yes I admit I wrote for Southgate out and I still stand by that he was a very poor manager, and at the present time Strachan is not much better, was he not the person who did not want to manage again.
As for betting, yes, I am a gambler and I have lost a small fortune by backing the BORO this season, always in the hope that they must win this one, but it was not to be. I did put my money where my mouth was. I enjoy the debate with you anyway. I hope your bets come up.
P.S and by small fortune anybody who know me, knows that is not two or three figure numbers.
I note today's rumour concerning the interest in Leon Best in the Gazette.
Better late than never, Gordon mate.
If I could be bothered I could trace back my many mentions of him as a target Boro should have been after to the Summer transfer window. But hey..... when did anyone at the club bother with what we all say. What do we know, anyway?
Mr. Average - though I doubt that all the skills, knowledge, competences and backgrounds that you 'accuse' people on this blog of holding are likely to exist in any one of us, all of them - and many more - will exist if you aggregate us all. From the snatches of people's backgrounds that we see on here, let alone from what they write, that's pretty obvious.
It's often a pretty quick and sure way to go out of business or at least cause significant damage to ignore your customers or treat them like a more or less necessary evil.
This is particularly true of football fans. Gibbo and The Count have often talked of themselves as 'only stewards' for the 'real owners' - the fans across the DiasBoro and the town. They don't really mean it, of course, but they're right nonetheless.
There's nothing revolutionary about Supporters' Trust ownership or shareholding in this country or around the world. It's no panacea - any more than sole ownership by Gibbo or being a plc is - but it has its place and many significant advantages in a (to quote Gibbo) 'business that is actually a sports club' and where customers are actually more fans - however you define that.
Back to Leon Best.
It's not just the goals he's now getting but the heading and hold up ability - and what impressed me most was his 'good touch for a big lad' control and bringing others into the game. He reminded me a lot of the younger Heskey when he was starting out at Leicester.
He's not going to be a twenty a season man but if you did what is now becoming fashionable and added, likely, his ten to fifteen goals per term to his assists for his striking partners he'd probably top The Championship tables.
There's still a need for a Phillips or Phillips-a-like to give us a balanced set of four with Killen and Lita. If Jezza's staying, I don't actually know what he is - except perpetually injured - or how he fits into a squad or a pattern of play, unless Strachs is going to give up the habits of a lifetime and go 4-3-3, in which case there might be a place for M&S too.
Robert Snodgrass from Leeds would be good too - but I don't see him coming here, why would he, or Boro being able to afford him unless Johnno goes.
Width, goals and affordable from a club that needs to raise money? What about Darren Ambrose from Palace.
And, if Nicky Weaver is seriously being considered (I hope not) what about Speroni from the same source as Ambrose (now that he's got rid of the daft pony tail!) or, better still, big Joe Lewis from Posh if McGregor can't be prised out of Rangers' bankers at a reasonable price.
Argentinian centre backs (maybe someone's been looking at Colocini at Sid James now that he's dropped down a division) and Dutch/Angolan midfielders who can't make the Angolan AN Cup squad and is playing in the Eredivisie (don't we learn?) on trial. Hmmmm.....
**AV writes: When I saw the Leon Best story I immediately thought about your persistent cheer-leading.
Here's one slightly from left field on possible centre back loans.
Philippe Senderos. No, don't laugh. Wants out of Arsenal for first team footy in preparation for the World Cup. Says he'd go on loan to Celtic so he's not bothered about dropping down a level or going North.
Strikes me that he could be like another Huth - on the margins or worse in a top class Prem side and squad but could be a big figure in a Championship side.
I'm interested how Anthony Vickers knew all of the details about the Sheff Utd game when his column shows as being posted at:
By Anthony Vickers on Jan 16, 10 10:44 AM
Can he see the future????
**AV writes: I just write them in advance now. It's been that kind of season.
Chelsea 7 Sunderland 2, Hartlepool United 0 MK Dons 5, but Boro lost only 0 vs. 1 at Sheffield. Are they going to sack mr Bruce, too?
Seriously I hope we get Coventry's Leon Best or Rangers striker Kris Boyd and get all the new boys settled in. We have horribly lot of injuries, too. So a striker and a fully fit squad should see us in play-offs.
Also Mido has admitted that Hull City and an unnamed Premier League side are interesting in signing him (Sky). Anyone?
Up the Boro!
**AV writes: Please let Mido go to Hull. Boro get the waster off the wages and maybe some dosh to spend and Phil Brown gets relegated. Everyone is happy.
"In view of the dwindling crowds at the Riverside do you think it worthwhile to remove seats and fit sofas? They could serve a dual purpose. When the Boro are playing their turgid football the fans can sit and have a snooze but when the opposition get a set piece"
Ridiculous post, does Mr Gill not realise that falling asleep at the Riverside gets you arrested?
:)
The Boro shop has some unbelievable bargains at the mo, and interestingly large cardboard posters of Brad Jones, Mark Yeates, and ........David Wheater. Is there a theme emerging?
Nicky Weaver will be a cert once he hears about the local culinary delicassy's.
Leon Best would be a great signing. What about Aaron McClean.
Would love to know who the players that will be dissappointed they aren't coming to Boro are.
"**AV writes: Please let Mido go to Hull. Boro get the waster off the wages and maybe some dosh to spend and Phil Brown gets relegated. Everyone is happy."
Not like you to be so diplomatic AV! Is the pet Guinea Pig safe?
John like the Senderos idea but could we realistically afford his wages?. Lets face it the club can just about afford to feed a cat at the moment.
Looks like Gordon is being linked with every man and and his dog... I am expecting a call soon.... maybe he thinks braveheart1 can do a job for him....
O Dim (sorry Mido) claims a club also in the top half of the PL want him as well as Hull. He claims a club with a great history at the top half of the PL are looking at him.... can't see anyone stupid enough to take a gamble on the overwight parmo loving man but the sooner he's of the Boro's books the better.
Also as a side note Portsmouth are staring down the barrel of a gun after there attempt to block a winding up order against them failed.
craig
If Celtic (who, it is said are already talking to Arsenal) can afford Senderos's wages then I guess Boro can - given the recent events.
If it's a loaner then it could be that Boro (or indeed Celtic) would only be picking up a proportion of the wages anyway.
Must be worth a polite enquiry, don't you think?
Thanks for the stats Werdermouth.
But if you look at the history of the league in the whole you will see that the league has always been dominated by a handful of clubs. In fact over the entire history of the league 5 teams have accounted for 59% of all champions and over the same period, those same 5 teams were runners up 45% of the time.
Interestingly, if you strip out the Premiership years, the same 5 teams still accounted for 55% of all championships and were runners up 48% of the time.
I've pasted the rankings below. To me these confirm that there is very little difference now to what has always been, periods where one of a handful of "elite" teams dominate English Football.
In the 17 years there have been 43 different teams in the Premiership. Some have come and gone quickly. Others have been there more than not (including the Boro). You said it yourself, that there was always the chance for a well run and well managed club to break through and that used to happen from time to time.
Well I think that will continue to happen from time to time, but it has always been the wealthy clubs that have dominated and that is unlikely to ever change. Just that the particular clubs with the wealth long-term may change (ever so) slowly over time.
I haven't the time or the inclination to research the stats, but I suspect that a very similar pattern would be discernible in most of the European leagues, certainly the Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French and Dutch leagues. It would be interesting to see how the German league compares with it's different style of club ownership.
All the same, I'd still rather be a Boro fan than a fan of any of those teams at the top of the two lists here, with the hope of winning and the occasional realisation of achieving something. We will be back, this year or next or maybe it will be longer (I hope not!), but we will be back.
Champions and Runners-Up since Adam and Eve
Champions Runners Up
Manchester-United 18 13
Liverpool 18 12
Arsenal 13 8
Everton 9 7
Aston-Villa 7 10
Sunderland 6 5
Newcastle-United 4 2
Sheff Wednesday 4 1
Wolves 3 5
Leeds-United 3 5
Huddersfield-Town 3 3
Chelsea 3 3
Blackburn-Rovers 3 3
Preston 2 6
Tottenham-Hotspur 2 4
Manchester-City 2 3
Derby-County 2 3
Burnley 2 2
Portsmouth 2 0
Sheffield-United 1 2
West-Brom 1 2
Ipswich-Town 1 2
Nottingham-Forest 1 2
Champions and Runners-Up Before Premiership
Champions Runners Up
Liverpool 18 10
Arsenal 10 2
Everton 9 7
Man United 7 10
Aston-Villa 7 9
Sunderland 6 5
Newcastle 4 1
Sheff Wed 4 1
Wolves 3 5
Leeds 3 5
Huddersfield 3 3
Preston 2 6
Tottenham 2 4
Man City 2 3
Derby 2 3
Burnley 2 2
Blackburn 2 2
Portsmouth 2 0
Sheffield Utd 1 2
West-Brom 1 2
Ipswich 1 2
N Forest 1 2
Chelsea 1 0
(PS. Sorry, I don't know who were the runners up on the handful of occasions it wasn't one of these clubs)
Senderos is a good shout - any centre half from a top four club available on loan would be nice.
Weiss from Citeh and Macheda too.
Mr. Average and Richard paint entirely different pictures of their ideal Boro fan. Both seem to be painting with the wrong end of the brush.
Mr. Average contradicts himself. He demands that all fans be allowed to support the club in their own way, yet he wants to deny contributors to this blog their individual angst-ridden modes of support. Personally, I find Mr. Average’s rant much less interesting than the posts he was trying to trash.
For Mr. Average the golden era was when players had Brylcreemed hair and shorts below their knees, and everyone knew their place. Unfortunately, the removal of the maximum wage swept his world into the dustbin of history.
But, for him, the solution remains simple. If he doesn’t like other people’s opinions, he shouldn’t bother reading them. He should just take his flat cap, rattle and rosette along to the Riverside and cheer himself hoarse. Nobody will complain, except possibly Sue Watson.
Richard thinks being a supporter means taking your ball home when the other kids won’t play to your rules. His position is also self-contradictory. He blames Southgate’s failure on the evil Gibson, for his (illusory) lack of investment in the team. For him, the golden age was the Robson-McClaren era, when the club was spending money hand over fist, money it didn’t have.
At the same time, he complains that the game has sold its soul to some mysterious “money men”, Sky TV or whoever. It seems to me that what really bugs him is the same as everyone else, the dearth of playing success in recent times. Somehow this is entirely Gibson’s fault, and the million-pound-a-year “scapegoat” Southgate can’t be blamed in the slightest.
For Richard the solution doesn’t seem so easy. He can’t have what he wants, which seems to be some kind of supporters’ trust. Many of us would like that, but we’re still prepared to take the Boro as it is, warts and all.
Besides, in the current structure of English professional football, a Boro run by a supporters’ trust couldn’t compete even at Championship level. That is, unless all the debts were somehow written off. So, from Richard’s viewpoint, Boro being in the Championship shouldn’t seem so bad after all.
But such is his grievance that Richard doesn’t attend any games, entirely through choice rather than through circumstance. So in what sense is he a Boro supporter? Wouldn’t he be better off supporting some other team, or finding another interest outside football? No amount of hair-splitting about the difference between MFC and Boro is an answer to these questions. Whether Richard likes it or not, MFC and Boro are just different names for the same thing.
Perhaps the answer is that being a Boro fan is something you can’t get over, like an incurable disease. If that’s the case, he should resign himself to his bad luck in being a Boro supporter. Come back into the fold, Richard, and enjoy being miserable with the rest of us. You obviously have the talent.
Dave Connor:
I think there may be a misunderstanding - I was trying to say don't judge football (players or managers) by your personal experience at work because it is so different. I wasn't saying you are some sort of feckless waster - just that our work experiences don't always transfer easily to other people's professions.
But let's get one thing straight - you are a Quantity Surveyor therefore you are sad in the work department (nothing personal Dave). QS makes you top of the Sad League.
It's not as bad as being a clamper but it's hardly something that keeps you awake a night thinking "I can't wait to goto work and get stuck into those estimates ..."
They won't be holding an X factor competition for Quantity Surveyors will they ?
Maybe they will - Simon: " I like her calculation/measurements ..." (insert screw joke)
Don't ask what I do - it's sad as well.
On a more serious point my 'Bets' have been much more fruitful since the Boro got relegated. Stewart Downing & Gary ONeil let me down for several Lucky 15's last year. I'm free of all the hope and sentiment these days and I'm getting a better return.
In the meantime stop counting those nails and give Gordon a break you saddo.
**AV writes: So who has the saddest job then? Maybe you are a pre-stressed concrete slab casting operative. Or a traffic survey data analyst. Or maybe the fourth choice left back at a former Premier League club. Let us know.
R van Winkle
I hang my head in shame though Sue Watson would probably be happy with fans dozing as long as they dont snore.
I rarely disagree with Mr Powls but I have a concern about Mr Ponderous. the aforesaid Gunner is no advocate of zonal or man to man marking but specialises in no markimg at all.
From our games against them and what I have seen his problem is that he is like many of his colleagues and can be bullied off the ball.
Thinking about it I refer my reservations, he appears well suited to our needs.
Powmill,
for the last 4 seasons the same 4 teams have finished in the top 4. In fact in this century Arsenal and Manu have always finished top 4. Chelsea in each of the last 7 years. And Liverpool in 8 out of 10(finishing 5th on the other 2 occasions).
There has never been such domination by any 4 teams before. Obviously, it's all due to the Champions' League and the money involved. The Premiership is no longer a sporting competition. It's a farce.
**AV writes: I've got a breakdown by decade somewhere that shows that there is always a group of teams that dominate for short spells but it is usually cyclical (fading as their loyal long time local players age) and then the next - different - clutch of teams would take over.
In the 20s people were still moaning about the big teams but it was Huddersfield (three titles, twice runners up), Wednesday (two titles) and Liverpool (two). or in the decade between 1949-59 it was Wolves (four titles), manchester United (three and four runners up) and Portsmouth (two).
Even in the 70s when six different teams won the title only eight other teams finished in the top three in the entire decade so it was hardly the golden age.
Powmill, nice bit of research - I guess now it's all about whether we can agree on how to interpret the figures. I'll start by giving the table since the PL started 17 years ago.
No. of Championships (runners-up)
-----------------------------------
Man Utd - 11 (3)
Arsenal - 3 (6)
Chelsea - 2 (3)
Blackburn - 1 (1)
Liverpool - 0 (2)
Newcastle - 0 (1)
-----------------------------------
Whilst spending shed loads of cash doesn't guarantee that you win anything - it certainly helps and it seems without megabucks the top two is out of reach.
Jack Walkers millions basically bought Blackburn success and so nearly won spendaholic Keegan's team the title. We all know that Abramovich has spent over half-a-billion getting Chelsea to the top and of course Man Utd have more or less matched their spending.
Meanwhile, Rafa has not been shy in the transfer market either but his rotation methods don't seem to gel a team together - Whilst Wenger has probably been the shrewdest investor and has managed to compete at the top without breaking the bank.
OK, I agree that there were always clubs that had more money than others, but since wealth was mainly derived from paying customers through the turnstiles, the biggest clubs perhaps only had around double the income of smaller clubs.
I would also argue that even these big clubs didn't necessarily buy their success. Take Liverpool in their dominant years, they usually only bought one or two players a year, often from the lower leagues. They were sucessful through good management and stability with a system that players were bought to fit into - so were Don Revie's Leeds (albeit a bit more brutal).
It certainly felt like it was down to having a good manager before the PL - Clough built a team and took it from the third division to the best team in Europe. also Bobby Robson built an Ipswich team that almost won the title - plus Norwich and Watford amongst others had spells challenging for the title.
It's probably unrealistic to expect that football will return to having more of a level playing field any time soon but the whole system is beginning to creak under the weight of debt - plus without regulation there's nothing to stop teams with unlimited budgets like Chelsea and Man City dominating whilst all around them fall.
John if Senderos could be done its certainly worth a shout.
Well done Richard on what I believe was the 100th post on this thread.
Sorry I wasn't in the penalty area when the cross came in. I've been away for a short while and it will take a few games to recover full match fitness, and to get used to the pace of the game again. And, of course, it might take a while to gel properly again with fellow posters.
I'll just have to do the hard yards and hope next time I'll get the rub of the green.
**AV writes: Blimey are up there already? I wasn't watching. Does it count?
Sorry, AV, I got ahead of myself there! I was expressing a personal view. It was like an involuntary leap from the seat when the ball flashes off the striker's head and JUST goes wide at the far post. Call it a reflex action.
A hastily arranged virtual conference of the Dubious Goals etc Committee confirms that if the ref fails to see the incident, and the "goal" is not awarded, the ref's decision on the issue is final. It doesn't matter if it number 1 or 100. No award is made.
Rather like a "goal" against Man U, struck from distance and where the keeper drags the ball out just before it hits the net (but a good two feet over the line). Although we all saw it at the time, and even had video evidence to replay it, the ref's whistle didn't blow. There was no centre spot kick off, and the papers next day showed the unpalatable but undeniable truth, that the "goal" was not counted.
Nice move though, Richard. Quick feet and an eye for goal. Pity it was too quick for the ref. It will no doubt feature on a "football bloopers" CD in the near future.
Hi there scoredraw
Are you sure that you dont really know me. I was on the X-FACTOR I got all the way through to the television recordings in 2008. (yes in front of the panel of Judges). I was shown many times in the Evening Gazette there were only 3 people from the BORO made it that far that year.
As a for a job as a Quantity Surveyor being a "sad life" as you put it, this was a mispell by me, you actually said "your sad life experience." I had to leave my beloved BORO during the early 90's for work abroad due to the work in the area being decimated.
Since then I have worked in many different countries around the world and each day is a new challenge. So my friend I am one of the lucky ones I work very hard and as I said my life is very far from being "sad."
I have continued to support the BORO (I saw more BORO matches live on TV than you can imagine) whereever I am and I have still kept my season ticket going and it is used all of the time. Maybe next time home we can meet up before the game and have a pint. Who knows I might give you a song.
I will continue to support the BORO and I will also continue to have my say on this board when I do not feel happy about the way the club is being managed
Forever Dormo: I only seem able to sneek in while Grove Hill Wallah (the ghost at the post) has his keyboard fingers in plaster, you're still nursing the New Year hangover, the Night Watchman's having a kip and the Immigration Officer's preoccupied with whatever it is Immigration Officers get preoccupied with!
Seems it's easier to walk straight through the front door than try to sneak in the back with an Antipodean pseudonym, a false beard and a packet of Werthers!
Are you waaatching, are you waaatching, are you watching Mythbuster? Are you watching Mythbuster?
Are you waaatching, are you waaatching, are you watching Mythbuster? Are you watching mythbuster?
To the Night Watchman/ Immigration Officer: What do you mean "does it count?" I was well on-side (apparently!)
**AV writes: Oh go on then. It's been so long since we've seen a goal.
We are like the real Boro. A cross came in to the area and some of our posters were not even in the penalty box. Typical Boro.
And the spectator (AV) was not even watching! Was he sleeping? Uncle Eric must arrest him then. And here in Finland no channel even shows the C'hip. Is this the thing they called 'Boring Boro' in the past? Apathy?
Hope the rest of the year goes better.
-Jarkko-
PS. Forever Dormo, we have had -8 to -20 degrees and nearly half a meter of snow since Christmas. But everything works as normal (as Boro, too!).
Just a suggestion,read Fergies introduction in Pallys bography,and I see some parallels with a certain guy who has taken over at Boro, in as far as what he saw at the beginning of his time at Man U is similiar to where we are at now as far as personnel
Hi Werdermouth and Steve H.
I agree it is always possible to interpret (almost) any set of statistics to suit your own argument. But, like AV pointed out, there is always a small clutch of teams that dominate for periods.
In my original post I did say that it is more than money that is the reason for dominance, which is not saying that money does not have a part to play.
However, even grossly over paid footballers want to play for the best teams of the day. They crave success, and probably more so than money, which is a big part of what makes them top footballers anyway. So as teams come into the ascendancy, so the top players will gravitate to play for those teams and so extend those teams' period of dominance.
Someday the Chelsea dream will come to an end. Arguably the wheels are already starting to come off at Liverpool and maybe even at ManU. This season (so far at least); it looks as if possibly ManC, Villa and Spurs may get into the top 4, or maybe higher. Spurs and Villa in particular are achieving that mainly because of the quality of the manager and arguably, so are ManC when you compare their current form with that under Mark Hughes.
Hmm. Would Arsenal and ManU have been nearly so ever-present near the top for the last 10 years or more, were it not for Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson? I suspect not.
Look in the Championship. Forest to me is the team of the division and I expect them to win that league. Once back in the top flight and with some momentum (and especially because they have a good manager/coach) they may re-establish themselves as a force in the top flight. I kind of suspect they will. How is this being achieved? With TV money? No, but because they have a good manager and coaches and probably a good scouting system.
Look at Portsmouth this week. Teetering on the brink. Back to my original post and you know Steve Gibson really may well have saved the club from going under. With the right manager putting together the right collection of players, the Boro will get promoted again. However, the right manager will be someone who can do it without having to spend untold millions.
Money helps for sure. But it is only a part of the recipe for success and I believe there is always the opportunity for the right team at the right time to go on to earn some success. However, as history has shown, these teams that occasionally break through will never get to stay among the elite for any extended period.
TV and TV money really has altered the expectations of football fans more than it has the reality of cyclical dominance by a handful of teams.
Ah..... lies, damned lies and statistics !
The current question is whether or not GS2 is the right man to take the Boro back and I'm not going to try and analyse that question at the back end of this already long enough post. I'm right behind him and the team regardless !
"Look in the Championship. Forest to me is the team of the division and I expect them to win that league. Once back in the top flight and with some momentum (and especially because they have a good manager/coach) they may re-establish themselves as a force in the top flight."
Oh, so Billy "11 points" Davies is a good Premier League manager/coach now is he?
The Boro transfer bonanza looks set to gather pace.
Yeates off loaded to free up space on wage bill, to enable us to achieve Strachan’s goals in this month Transfer window. Now 3 midfielders have been shipped out and only two in so far. Possibly O’Neil out for £4m, Mido cleared off the wage bill. I think Gordon could be about to bring quite a few more names.
QPR have turned down £500k for Routledge, wanting nearer to £2m, Leon Best set to sign due to Chief scout Powls recommendation.
AV/Chief Scout any other names out there that you have unearthed, any stellar marquee type signings imminent. (By Stella I mean leading scorer in the SPL)
I think we are due for an exciting couple of days.
Now now, lurking Lester Fox.
If you can't take in the general tenor, overall argument and thread of a series of lengthy posts, you should maybe avoid trying to read any thing with more than a few simple syllables. There was no need for that trite comment.
Its definatly going to be an exciting few days. The big problem is we are looking for strikers and selling midfielders.Strikers we need desperatly. Digard gone Yeates gone and whats the bet GON off to Stoke very worried.
So the problem moves plenty of strikers no midfield.
Dave Connor:
Dave I am absolutely sure your life isn't sad and never meant to say it was. I never questioned your work ethic - how could I? I do believe that the lessons learned in the world of QS are not that valuable in football management.
I'll accept, reluctantly, that being a QS is more glamorous and exciting than I could ever have imagined in return could you possibly consider not saying Gordon is "rubbish" at management until he has proved it like Gareth ?
I wasn't aware of you X Factor fame - what did you sing ?
"Do it my way !!!!"
SmogOnTheTyne,
I think the next couple of games might well determine whether Boro feel it's worth hanging on to O'Neil and Jinky in order to make the playoffs.
If Boro win these games then they'll be back in touch with the playoff pack with five winnable games to follow - but a couple of defeats may leave Boro an impossible task and cashing in may well be the best option for next season's budget.
It's still going to require a major turnaround to make the playoffs. We need around 43 points from 21 games - since Newcastle mangaged 46 in their first 21, it means we will need to be the best performing team in the league until the end of the season.
This is highly unlikely unless we get a couple of goal scorers ASAP (i'll go for John Powls' recommendations as he generally knows what he's talking about) plus a creative midfielder and possibly a keeper.
Though, our budget may have been already boosted by Hull's interest in Mido (pauses to control laughter) - maybe we could swap him for Jan Venegoor of Hesselink if we can still afford the letters on the back of his shirt.
As to the question raised by Powmill as to whether Strachan is the right man for the job? On reflection he probably wasn't the right choice to takeover from Southgate if he was supposed to get better results from an underachieving squad (I think that was an excellent point made by John earlier in this thread) rather than start again from scratch.
Though since the goal posts have now been moved and now it's all about building a completely new team to compete in the Championship then he has to be given time to prove he's up to the task - though I'd draw the line that he should escape removal if we're staring at relegation with half-a-dozen games to go as that would be just suicide.
It is reported that MIDO maybe signing for either Hull or another premiership club. I tis also reported that we were still paying his wages whilst he was on loan in EYGPT. Therefore are we going to get a transfer fee for him or is he going on a free transfer. What are you doing Mr Lamb? This should be explained to the supporters.
Hello my friend scoredraw.
It was "KISS" - a good version with lots of singing and dancing!
Also as regards my football prowess. I played in the 60's in the Northern League and also amateur international. I was a goal keeper and continued playing till I was 58 my last game in goal for England against Scotland in Qatar in front of 10,000 expats and we won 3-0. So I do know a little about football also. I still play 5 a side here in Kazakhstan. Not bad for an old man.
I enjoy the banter with you. Like I say I am always available for a pint when I am back. My local watering hole is the Green Tree behind the bus station.
All the best for Saturday. 2-1 for the BORO you should get around 9/1
**AV writes: Ah bless, best mates now. All's well that end's well.
So Sol Campbell is suing Pompey for £1.7mil. Without taking sides (havn't you got enough Sol) doesn't it truly encapsulate the whole sorry state our beloved game has got into?
On a lighter note,If Senderos isn't good enough for the Arsenal, how on earth can he be good enough for the Boro?
**AV writes: The most shocking aspect of the Campbell case is that he is sueing for money due for "image rights" and bonuses. How many Sol Campbell duvets do Pompey need to flog to clock up that kind of royalty?
43 points from 21 games sounds a bit steep even for Strachan’s reinvigorated all stars. So how about closing the gap on the teams above?
Swansea 8 point lead = we need to win 0.38 points per game more than them to catch them. A win on Saturday lowers this to 0.25 ponts per game
Cardiff = 0.333 points per game
Sheff Utd = 0.285 points per game
Leicester = 0.285 points per games but their bubble has burst, you agree Lester?
Palace = 0.238 still to visit Fortress Riverside
Blackpool = 0.190
Bristol Cities = 0.142 still to visit Fortress Riverside
QPR = 0.095 still to visit Fortress Riverside
Donny = 0.047
We only need to match the form of the teams above us and beat them at Home and we will be level with them. Or if we could pick up some form from somewhere, we might do this easily. Possibly automatic, Champions League in four years.
All IFS I know but I want to get excited about going to games again. I’m sick of all this defeatist, depression, doom laden talk.
Let’s all go Ra-Ra Ga-Ga for one week and see if we can beat Swansea.
Come on Boro.
Hull target Mido apparently would prefer going to Ajax. Quotes "With a bit of spit and polish I could shine there".
What about Scott Brown from Celtic apparantly told by Mogga he has no future there. As we have already signed three from them what about another one.
If a requirement for another 43 points is the perceived wisdom, then I've just been through the remaining fixtures and believe that we could struggle to make that.
I know it's daft to try and predict them all so early in the season, but I did so all the same and came out with 40 points (and that was predictiing through my rose tinted glasses).
The biggest missing link is the goalscorer. That must be GS2's priority. Without someone starting to score goals for us, I think we will be very lucky indeed to get any where near 40 more points.
I like the idea of Leon Best from Coventry and if he lined up with Kris Boyd from Rangers, that could be profitable in terms of goals. (Has Kris Boyd ever scored against us ?) Everything is quiet on the Boyd front. AV, do you know if we are still pursuing an interest?
Also I notice that Scott Brown looks to be available from Celtic. Hibbees I work with rated him highly and were surprised he went to Celtic instead of down south. I think he could be a very good signing into midfield if we could get him.
**AV writes: I think the valuation of Best is under discussion. I don't know about any movement on Brown but his name has been mentioned.
Good to see Gary O'Neil giving an honest account of the season thus far and of the mentality of some of the players, I just hope he and Gordon and just as open in the dressing room. Hopefully he won't disappear off to Stoke but if he does how about a swap for Beattie?
Good to see Gary O'neil giving an honest account of the season thus far and of the mentality of some of the players, I just hope he and Gordon and just as open in the dressing room. Hopefully he won't disappear off to Stoke but if he does how about a swap for Beattie?
Impressive stats SmogOnTheTyne, but I don't care how many fractions to three decimal places you present me with, I still think we need 43 points from 21 games to make the playoffs.
But I know what you mean when you say you're sick of the lack of a positive outlook - surely Boro could start a winning run soon and give us some hope that the season isn't already over - even if it was by accident and Arca fluked a hat-trick to become an automatic choice in midfield.
Werdermouth,
Over the last 7 seasons the average points of the 6th placed side = 73.428. This ranges from 70 up to 75 points. So I think your target of 75 points is fair.
So like Powmill, I have gone through the remaining fixtures and I see us picking up 37 points. This would give us 69 points, six short of the Expected Play Off Cut Off Point (EPOCOP). Frustratingly we are currently six points short of sixth place.
So in conclusion what I have done is talk myself out of our possibilities of getting the EPOCOP. But hang on this is only based on my predictions, and I only think it prudent when estimating 21 results you factor in, say a six point swing-o-meter. This will cover last minute equalisers/winners, fixture pile ups, loss of form etc.
Also the EPOCOP may be lowered if the games we win are against are EPOCOP rivals. So in conclusion we can still make, just…..with a fair wind.
Just win on Saturday Boro.
I would forget about Boyd and Scott Brown
Brown was signed from hibs by Strachan for 4.5 million so Boro could not afford the fee and his wages although he would be a massive massive player for the club
Boyd has expressed his desire to stay at Rangers and I dont think also that Boro can afford him
Scott Brown would be a great midfield signing but:
- didn't he snub Boro when we were in the Prem and he was leaving Hibs? No problem in us letting bygones be such but will he want to come now when he wouldn't then, even if he's a Strachanovite?
- my reading of the various 'official' responses to rumour and speculation indicates that Mogga doesn't accept that Brown is going anywhere or that what was rumoured wasn't the content of the conversation with the player. Brown has declined to comment.
- if Brown were to be available (and I guess that Celtic are in Boro's position - anyone's available if the price is right) then there'll be more than a couple of Prem sides interested. I'm already assuming that the hotel at Hurworth keeps a printed sheet with satnav directions to the DW Stadium on it - they might need the same for St. Andrews and The Britannia.
There seem to be persistent rumours that Johnno has been spotted at Brum's training ground today and that the deal for Boro involves cash plus McSheffrey coming the other way.
My guess would be that they wouldn't be one of the two clubs that Johnno wants to go to - if he can have his choice at the end of the season.
If Big 'Eck could make the deal McSheffrey plus Phillips plus enough cash to secure Boyd and agree not to get in the way of Boro buying him from Rangers, I'd be tempted.
John its possible Johnno could be tempted by Brum: massive financial input to the club from new foreign investors, more than likely guaranteed a starting place and if they keep going the way they are at present possibly a sneak into the Europa League (do they do Parmo's I wonder?.) What do you think?
Richard wrote:
"Are you waaatching, are you waaatching, are you watching Mythbuster? Are you watching Mythbuster?"
Trouble is, the hard work done in midfield by posters like me will always go unappreciated. I'm more of a "continuity" poster, tirelessly covering the ground from inbox to inbox. I'm able to make the short post with either hand, occasionally launching the defence-splitting long post.
And what do I get for my efforts? Deemed surplus to requirements, and told to find another blog during the transfer window.
**AV writes: My money is on a gazumping bid from Wigan.
Interesting little mini-spat between Powmill and Lester the lurking fox about Billy Davies.
He was on my mind last year when there were calls for Gareth's removal during the season. The generally held view was that club's who act quickly and replace their manager stand a better chance of avoiding relegation.
Well it doesn't always work and it didn't for Derby. Yes, they were rock bottom when Billy Davies was sacked, but if memory serves me right, they were even worse when Paul Jewell took over. I think it took him a season and a half to amass the same number of points Davies had amassed in half a season. Eventually they gave up on him as well.
Meanwhile Billy Davies has moved on and proved himself very capable at Derby's fiercest rivals whilst Derby continue to languish somewhere in the lower end of the second division (somewhere near us I think). Must be tough being a Derby supporter too... bet they wonder what might have happened if they'd been a bit more patient.
Interesting too that Paul Jewell's name cropped up fairly frequently as a possibly successor to Gareth when we were looking for our mid-season saviour! At least that was a bullet dodged!
I find it helps to find some other clubs have their problems too...and don't even get me started on Sol Campbell...
craig
There are Boro old boys at Brum too that Johnno could have talked to.
I don't just think it's about the money that could be on offer from the likes of Brum with Carston Yeung's backing but about the view the lad has of himself and which clubs he thinks may be interested and fit his view of himself.
Also, Birmingham's not London, though it's nearer than the Boro, of course.
I may be doing the lad a complete disservice of course and he has to make the best advantage to him of his career, personally and professionally. And timing is everything.
But, as you say, there are other than financial advantages to him going somewhere like Brum rather than somewhere more glamourous but where he may well be a smaller fish in a bigger pond.
As is evident from this season and from previous loans in The Championship Johnno's a stand out at this level. I don't believe that he's that good at a Prem level, however, but he and we will doubtless get chance to find out when he moves in the next couple of weeks or in the Summer.
After contract talks with Untypical Wigan collapsed, I find myself returning with my tail between my legs.
**AV writes: Now you will be tortured by the boo-boys for being a Billy Big Balls who wants away and thinks he is too good for this level. Booooooooo.
Following last year's outburst from Caleb Folan's against Phil Brown comes Daniel Cousin's reported outburst saying he can't stand him either.
I wonder how long Mido would last at Hull before relations with his new manager reached breaking point? Two weeks? a month?
Maybe we should fit Mido with a webcam as part of any deal and sell the rights online as a Pay-per-view money spinner.
**AV writes: Mido is the archetypal argument in an empty room merchant . He would be brilliant in Celebrity Big Brother.
Following on from Bob's last post.
An interesting comment from Graham Taylor on Five Live this morning, talking about how Martin O'Neil has been patiently building his Villa team, adding to them a little bit every year and every year them improving a little.
He observed that too many ex-players are given high-profile jobs as their playing careers come to an end. MON started maging at Wycombe before progressing via Norwich and Leicester to Celtic. He compared that with Ferguson, who started managing at East Stirling, then St Mirren, before Aberdeen and then Man U.
In other words a better career route for an ex-player is to go and do the management apprenticeship in the lower leagues.
If he is a good manager (and I think he probably is) Billy Davies will have learned a great deal from his half a season in the Premiership with Derby, that is going to stand him in very good stead if he does get promoted with Forest.
We didn't go for him, but instead went for Gordon Strachan. Arguments about right at the time or not are now quite redundant. He is here and he is doing the job as he sees fit. He too is building a team to suit the way he wants it to play. He too has had something of an apprenticeship. He deserves the time and the backing of us (the Boro supporters) while he does build a team.
It would be great if he could get enough of what he wants in this transfer window to give us the impetus to maybe achieve EPOCOP this season, but we need to be realistic about this now and buck the trend of the modern football fan and be patient if it doesn't happen this year.
Mythbuster
You have my sympathies, I see myself as the Robbie Mustoe of the blog, beavering away whilst leaving others to get the glory, hitting the post whilst poachers knock in the rebounds.
After a long career in Premiership blogging I have now dropped down a level and having to blog in the Championship. There appears to be no approaches from the likes of the Manchester or London dailies and there is little point joining the Derby Evening Telegraph.
But we have to keep going, there is professional pride to consider.
Has the "exciting couple of days" started yet ?
There's a bit of a contradiction with your interview of Barry Robson in today's Gazette. He said "What Gordon Strachan is like is that if you work really hard for him and you put in a real shift and put your heart and soul into every game then he will like you."
Isn't that what Mark Yeates did when he was given a chance under Strachan? I still don't understand why he wanted to sell him - particularly as Kevin Blackwell who's managing a playoff rival said "I'm delighted to finally get my man, although I was surprised Boro would let him go."
Do you think it was just a case of needing to sell players to free up the budget for wages in order to bring other players in?
**AV writes: No I don't think so. Yeates came from Colchester so he would have been on relatively smaller wages. I think it was more case that on the pitch while offering energy he didn't always stick to his instructions, was positionally suspect and also didn't meet the "ball retention" quota; and off it is he wasn't quick to tune into the mentality or fully embrace the frugal new lifestyle demands.
Know its being negative, but I have seen very little "strengthening" in this transfer window. If anything the squad is weakening towards one which is just about good enough to do the minimuum to stay in the Championship for the next couple of years.
Have we been sold yet another pre-season "dummy" in being told that promotion straight back to the PFL was our main target this year??
Werdmouth (plus AV of course)
I was speaking to a Leicester fan this morning and he always asks about the Boro. Yeates was there for a time and my friend says he is a third division player.
He had a good first game then flattered to deceive always liking to go for the tricks rather than concentrate on the job in hand. Always busy but not achieving. You can recognise some of that from his time at Boro. I thought he was a trier who never quite stepped up a level.
As for the other bits that AV mentions I do not have access to such information but would never doubt the veracity of the statements.
Chris D:
Yes.
Oh dear, the predicted ‘exciting few days’ hasn’t really got going. Unfortunately this means that my mind has started to wander. How can we start to improve the match day experience?
How about SC/tickets are bought for the North Stand lower but are not allocated a seat number. Therefore groups can sit together easily and hopefully lead to a better atmosphere. like an old terrace.
Ticket prices not to exceed £15.00. Currently if we are getting 18,000 paying on average £22.00 = £396,000 in gate receipts per home game. If £15.00 were to be charged then the club would require crowds of 26,000 to recoup a similar gate.
The shortfall would surely be made up by other match day revenues and merchandise. I’m sure another 8,000 could be tempted back. Imagine that, relatively full ground, do you remember the buzz that goes round the ground, you could always hear it when there was a lull in the action. Now when it goes quiet, it goes quiet. You can hear the shouts on the pitch or from down in the concourse.
How low could ticket prices go? And how low would they have to be to get 30,000 to championship game?
Or and as radical as this sounds how about £1 per person per match. Ticket revenue this season = £9m. So the club would be losing out on £9m. But the fans and community would benefit. Just think the transfer fee’s and wages saved on St Ledger and Caldwell would amount to over £7m this season alone. Maybe the fans should benefit and keep the money in the community.
Now I know it wouldn’t happen but just think of the millions of pounds the club has lost recently be it on Transfers, players wages etcetc. This wouldn’t be the worst loss the club could endure.
Maybe the club could do it for one game next season. All in for a quid. Obviously with arrangements made in SC prices to avoid anyone moaning.
I guess what you say AV is backed up by what Strachan said last week: "The ones who find it too much hard work or too intense, or the discipline or the fact that you have to push yourself to a new limit to be a winning player and a competitive player too much, they have to go by the wayside."
I also accept Ian's comments and he was probably not going to prove to be anything other than a squad player anyway - though Sheff Utd seem to rate him.
I get the feeling that GS2 is building for next season as it's probably going to take too long to gel a team with six or seven new recruits and have them back to winning ways immediately - though as it isn't the best of leagues, it's still not yet reached the point where have to write this season off completely.
Anyway, to make playoff calculations easier, If we win on saturday then we're looking at needing 40 points from 20 games - which gives a target of win three, draw one, lose one every five games.
One question I would ask is, does Strachan just get rid of players who don't get it straight away? Does he take the easy attitude of getting rid of anyone who he finds it difficult to get to do what he wants (regardless of ability) or are there really good reasons behind him letting someone like Yeates leave?
For those who say Yeates does nothing and is a 3rd league player or whatever, how about looking at his actual achievements for his previous team?
2007/2008 - Colchester in Championship
29 apps 8 goals 7 assists
2008/2009 - Colchester in League 1
42 apps 12 goals 11 assists
Not bad for someone who is always busy but never achieving. Anyone in the Boro team match up to that? Johnson perhaps with his 9 goals and 4 assist in the league this season? Anyone else?
Smogonthetyne I was beginning to think you were on to something here .... but then you said "...... to avoid anyone moaning". And pigs will fly I thought to myself.
Shame. Yours would have been a far worthier 150 not out than the goal poacher Richard's well timed, but monosyllabic "Yes" !
Ian with regard to Yeates who I found to be tryer but with not much end product the comments from your friend in Leicester is very similar to the comments that were made by Colchester fans at the time of us buying him.
A few of their fans rated him on there messgae boards but quite a lot were passing the same comment as your friend. Yet again its another lesson learnt by the Boro.
So Boyd is talking to Villa, on to plan B then, which presumably is the man fron Coventry.
Missed the boat with Boyd. He’s in talks with Villa, never mind Wigan, try a bid for Leon Best instead.
Powmill: "Yes" is positive! Hardly a moan is it? I'm keeping my powder relatively dry , as I have for most of this season. If I'd posted even a tenth of what I've actually written - but then elected not to, for fear of falling into a Slavenista trap - you'd have far more grounds for such reaction. I could hardly have been more restrained than to provide a monosyllabic answer!
However, I HAVE anticipated more of the same (just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me!) and should it be forthcoming, I'll perhaps decide to post, in further explanation and defence of my position and in fuller response to Chris D. Your relatively gentle jibe has been insufficient to have me hovering over the red button. But somehow, I expect more!
Incidentally, I didn't realise it was post 150! If it was, I'll take your word for it. It wasn't contrived - purely coincidence. Such milestones mean nothing to me. Nothing whatsoever. Not even a little bit of historical kudos. Nope, nothing at all! Don't know why people make such a fuss. Nothing. Nada. Niet. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nowt! Not me! Not ever! Nope! And I'm not even thinking about 200! No Sirree!
John said:
"One question I would ask is, does Strachan just get rid of players who don't get it straight away? Does he take the easy attitude of getting rid of anyone who he finds it difficult to get to do what he wants (regardless of ability) or are there really good reasons behind him letting someone like Yeates leave?".
I suspect there's some truth in the suggestion that Strachan jettisons anyone who doesn't get his ideas, regardless of their ability. Some will doubt the wisdom of that approach, but it's worked for Alex Ferguson and personally I'm quite happy with it. It's a team game after all and all that.
The reason he's made up his mind and acted so quickly, however, may b more to do with that face that he needs quick finance for his own signings.
Perhaps he feels there is no time to waste.
Most people cite the West Brom game as the one where it dawned on us all that we were going down, but for me it was the week before against Sunderland.
That game came at the end of a massive week in which Downing handed in a transfer request and it was obvious that there was unrest in the dressing room. All the talk was of whether Downing would be booed. In the event, we got behind him ... but the way we were pegged back and then dominated at home by a very average Sunderland side didn't bode well at all, and I can remember thinking, 'If we can't win this, we won't win many more.' We had relegation written all over us.
...and as Richard put the full stop to his post at 4.19pm, he had to turn his head away from the keyboard, as his nose had now grown to such an extent it threatened to type on its own.
Ah Richard.
That was no gentle jibe at you, but an ironic observation that there will always be those who will find something to moan at even in the most positive of event (as Smogonthetyne was imagining).
Great respect for the humility over the 150th post. I suspect this blog will not reach its 200th as Friday is now upon us and I'm sure AV will have something new to start a fresh debate.
Sad we will not be able to hijack Kris Boyd from the Brum or Villa, but if he's definitely not coming here, then he's forgotten and fingers crossed the Leon Best move will happen.
Looking forward to 3 points on Saturday. Lita to bag a brace anyone ?
I am looking with ironic amusement at the stats quoted above by those of us with some optimism still left in their veins.
Reality is that our current form will yield us 10 to 12 more points between now and the end of the season. 3 points in the last 6 games. Ouch!
To date the comings and goings have hardly been inspirational but the likely departures allied to the calibre of the to date incomings hardly inspire me with anything but even more dread.
The truth as hard as it is to swallow right now is that Boro will be extremely fortunate to avoid relegation this year. We are in a relegation dogfight, its just that it hasn't dawned on some of us just yet. Play offs? Yer jokin arnt yer!
The turning point last season was the Hull game, 1-0 up and looking good, then we had that disastrous ten minutes, we never recovered and of course it gave Hull an extra three points as well.
**AV writes: Dodgy penalty decision. The turning point was the disallowed goal at Blackburn/ missed penalty at Sunderland/sale of Luke Young .... insert your own here.
Forever Dormo:
It were my nose what dun the whole thing, Guv! I plead "not guilty" on the grounds of diminished responsibility but extended proboscis!
BBC say that Boro have made a bid for Wayne Routledge (born 7 January 1985). He is an English footballer who plays for Queens Park Rangers. He plays as a midfielder predominantly on the right wing but can also play on the left (Wiki).
Sounds good - I hope L Best is signed, too. Something to happens today, Friday before the Swansea game?
Any news on this, AV. You must put a spy microphone near uncle Eric. He must know something already... Up the Boro!
**AV writes: There has certainly been a bid although I don't think it is anywhere near QPR's ambitious £2m valuation.
Redcar Red wrote:
"We are in a relegation dogfight, its just that it hasn't dawned on some of us just yet."
Great stuff. This really is world-class gloom. No daft questions about whether the cup's half full or half empty. Just the simple statement that it's smashed into a thousand pieces all over the kitchen floor.
"Cash-strapped Derby have placed every member of the squad on the transfer list as they try to raise £8m by the end of the month" by Daily Mirror.
Where is the English football heading to?
You're all wrong! The rot set in the day Mr Gibson decided he'd appoint one more novice at the helm.
My goodness it is going to take a long time to recover from that error in judgement and move away from the oh so wrong romantic notion that youth and pace would bring us success. It's alright to admit that most of us were all duped into thinking that would work.
We just can't get it into our thick skulls that any amount of tweaking and weeding out (and there is a lot of that to be done) will not produce instant results. When things go wrong at Boro, folks just disappear rather than stay and show some unity. You only have to look north a bit to see a club in complete disarray and yet they still show unity and spirit by going to games.
The change we are after is going to take some time and so we have to resign ourselves to that fact, be prepared to knuckle down but above all, start showing some patience and unity.
I know, I know. You'll cite three plus years of dross on the pitch, a losing mentality, a downturn in the economy, daft marketing ideas etc but the bottom line is that other supporters put us to shame because they still turn out for their footy teams, despite arguably having deeper-rooted off-the-field problems.
Football fans have a right to moan and cheer, that's what it's all about at the end of the day. But the bottom line is that if we continue to see dwindling crowds at the Riverside then we truly are setting ourselves up for mass failure.