Slowly Does It As Strachan's Changes Start To Show
THREE games in and Gordon Strachan is starting to slowly stamp his mark on the team.
Slowly. Too slowly for many supporters, true. Especially those that thought getting shot of Southgate was a magic bullet solution. And so slowly that any hopes of promotion are now precariously balanced against the swift expenditure of time and games. But the signs are there.
Admittedly one point from nine and just one goal along the way may not be much to shout about, and the new boss admitted himself that he was only happy with 30 minutes of a disappointing 1-1 home draw with Nottingham Forest.
And there were a lot of familiar Southgatian fatal flaws on show, so much so that there was plenty of post-match phone-in and concourse grumbling that nothing at all has changed and the managerial switch was pointless.
You know the story: over-elaboration; and a lack of the teeth to make the obligatory spell of territorial superiority count; the inability to hold on to a lead or to close out the game; a second half paralysis in the face of a spirited fight-back by a more determined and hungrier outfit; and once again the fatal peppering of cheap free- kicks conceded around the box, one of which inevitably led to the sickening goal.
If the truth be told Boro were lucky to escape with a point and but for a series of brilliant blocks by much-maligned Brad Jones Forest could easily have romped to an embarrassing emphatic victory.
It was another run-through of the Groundhog Day script that has sucked the soul from all but the most innately upbeat of optimists, compromised early hopes of a swift top flight return and ushered in a renewed ascendency of time honoured Teesside defeatist cynicism.
But despite all that weighing heavily in the debit column, there were small tell-tale signs of a change in approach and line-up - including some that chimed with growing demands from a knowledgeable crowd - that offer some hope of concrete progress.
The most visible and symbolic change came as the captaincy was taken from ailing David Wheater and handed to leader by example Gary O'Neil.
In recent seasons the armband has proved toxic. Since Gareth Southgate stepped up from skipper to supremo the responsibility of the role weighing down and drained form from in quick succession Mark Schwarzer, George Boateng, Julio Arca, Stewart Downing and Emanuel Pogatetz.
Only Robert Huth has worn the skipper's skill-sucking dark-matter armband with any conviction and responded to promotion with improved displays, consistency and a heightened sense of inspirational leadership - and that was all too brief.
When he left the role fell on Wheater's shoulders by default. O'Neil then was out having stomach surgery. Of the squad that travelled to Bristol City after Huth's exit, Wheater was the only viable choice; the only other senior player on the day guaranteed a first team start was mercurial but meek Adam Johnson.
Wheater, one of our own though he may be, has struggled this term to reach the eye-catching early high standards that earned him an England call-up. And that is a generous assessment. A harsher one would point the finger at him for string of costly late lapses that started the day Huth walked out of the door.
After four clean sheets in succession alongside Huth, Wheater has had to learn on the hoof to play with teh more cavalier Sean St Ledger in a porous back four in constant flux - Saturday saw Boro's 11th permutation at the back - and at times the local hero has looked uncomfortable and exposed, clunky and flat-footed. Calls are growng for him to be dropped for a breather and with Riggott back to full fitness it may be an option.
Wheater needs to focus on his own role, getting back to his best and developing his relationship with St Ledger. The armband is a distraction he can do without and Strachan taking it off him is sure sign that the problem has been recognised.
O'Neil is the most experienced, most influential and most consistent performer in the team and is the obvious choice to take on the mantle. Let's hope the cursed captaincy does not now infect him too.
Another welcome change that hinted at thing sto come was the switch of Rhys Williams to right-back. He had a torrid second half but nevertheless the move to his natural position was a two fold statement of intent.
Firstly it suggested the end of an era of 'round pegs in square holes' and secondly it has signalled that Strachan may already have decided some players in the squad are not in his first team thinking.
The dynamic Aussie started well in his emergency role as a makeshift midfielder this term but the quick-fix was far from ideal and soon started to show the fault lines. His lack of specialist experience and lack of creative instinct left Boro one dimensional in the middle, especially alongside the equally conservative Didier Digard or Isaiash Osbourne.
The arrival of Osbourne and the move of O'Neil back into the middle has signalled Strachan's recognition that a makeshift mono-paced engine room is a major problem.
It has meant the move of Arca out onto the right which is far from ideal - but that has the feel of a short-term fix heavy with sub-text. Yet putting left footer Arca starting on the right ahead of several players who see that as their natural berth raises questionmarks over both Mark Yeates and Marvin Emnes and suggests that position could be a spending priority when Strachan starts to rebuild.
Similarly, the relatively inexperienced Williams slotting into right-back ahead of Justin Hoyte, who has played there in the Champions League, calls into question the ex-Arsenal man's job security, especially as Tony McMahon was on the bench ahead of him.
And playing patched-up Pogatetzt on the left for solidity and experience in defence must worry fit and available Jonathan Grounds and Andrew Taylor who have been found wanting there this season.
Up front two arrivals on loan - Bent and Kitson - have already marked out Strachan's intentions and again it doesn't look good for Emnes.
There is much work still to be done and the feeling is growing that if the play-offs are to be achieved then there will need to be major surgery in January to reshape the squad in Strachan's image.
Meanwhile the style has changed subtley too. There is more passing out from the back, a higher tempo early on and an increased emphasis on ball retention in the middle and more movement up front to create options.
The next stage is to make it gel. Several times against Forest Kitson or Lita made well timed runs behind the defence but the ball was still being played sidewards along the half-way line and never picked them out. That will have to change.
Strachan is off the mark now with his first point. It will take time to shape his team. But Boro don't have a lot of that left if it is to happen this season.
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- Brad Jones was excellent on Saturday - hopefully the inbreds who boo him will realise the errors of their ways now.
- Williams looked pretty tasty in the first half.
- Adam Johnson has been shocking ever since is masterful performance against Sheff Wed.
- Marcus Bent is a terrible, terrible footballer.
- Osbourne looks good (a potential Boateng/Catermole replacement).
We'll see if you are right at the next game....
**AV Writes: No, we'll see if I am right in January. Or, depending on financial restrictions, even next summer.
What is really disappointing is that most of those that seem to be drifting out of the first team picture are our much-feted Academy products.
The club puts great store on its Academy products - to the extent it has gone down the route of removing all its experienced and thus expensive non-Academy products - but to see the likes of McMahon, Taylor, Grounds, Walker and now potentially Wheater too becoming regular bench warmers at best at Championship level is worrying. Thats a lot of person investment seemingly going down the drain.
Which just goes to show where the real problem has lain for years - the total inability of Boro's coaching staff to develop these young players to the levels needed for Premiership and now it seems Championship level.
Most of our youngsters have been at this level before - out on loan - and been highly praised everywhere they have been. Yet now they are no longer good enough at this level.
That tells you they have what Cloughy used to call "good habits" - the Academy coaches gave them all the best grounding and also the ability to listen to and take on board the coaching they received when they were out on loan.
Sadly back at Boro they are not receiving that quality of coaching and their careers are fading away. These are not useless players we are talking about - they have shown what they are capable of elsewhere.
Strachan MUST clear out the coaching and bring in quality OFF the pitch or he is going to find his own reputation going down the same route.
I wasn't impressed with Osbourne at all, he was far too ponderous and never looked comfortable on the ball - in fact I'd rather have Williams there, but his future is surely at RB so good to see him there. Please please please GS2, injuries allowing, can we give that back five a good run of games now.
I've defended Arca at times, but he was truly awful on Saturday. Surely Yeates could offer more. Or switch GON out to the right and bring Digard into the middle.
I think lack of confidence is still a big problem, if we can get a couple of wins, we could go on a big run and get right back in the mix.
Pogatetz could also play centre ie his natural position instead of Wheater, with the promising Bennett slotting in at LB which would also give us another attacking option.
The words of Uncle Eric
''Boro started like a house on fire, with both Adam Johnson and Julio causing problems on the flanks, and it was their combined efforts which led to Lita’s goal.
Ironically Johnson and Arca then switched positions from left to right and right to left respectively for the remainder of the game, and were nowhere near as effective.''
Now a few words of praise for Corporal Jones. Well done, thanks for keeping us in the game.
I couldn't get to the game but clearly there is a fear factor involved particularly at home. First step is to identify those players who have 'stiffened' with fear and rest them - admittedly that is easier said than done so the best way is to 'promote' those that have a natural propensity to show mental courage.
Courage like fear is contagious. The team will benefit across the board from the intoduction of Tony McMahon. Wheater will get more confident, we will be more steely and Tony's honesty and offensive instincts will do us all the world of good. Tony McMahon is not frightened give him chance.
On another subject imagine having Roy Keane as manager? What a flawed and joyless individual.
AV said.. "It was another run-through of the Groundhog Day script that has sucked the soul from all but the most innately upbeat of optimists, compromised early hopes of a swift top flight return and ushered in a renewed ascendency of time honoured Teesside defeatist cynicism..."
Sorry AV, I must take exception to this. Teessider's may be cynics,and accept that the Boro usually let the fans down, but they are never defeatist.
To take up Jiffy’s point regarding the (non) development of our academy prospects :
Nathan Porritt. Here was a lad that Chelsea openly (as seen on TV some three years ago) tried to poach and yet when he was loaned out to Darlington he was publicly slagged off by the manager for “…not trying…being too casual”. I recall him being hauled before half time on more than one occasion.
Now I understand he has been sent back to Boro with hardly any first team football under his belt.
Where did that lack of work ethic originate and breed? Surely ingraining work ethic is one of the very first responsibilities of the coaching staff isn’t it? Yes alongside skill development, fitness, movement etc but attitude and application must come first. A professional sportsperson is nothing if not possessing those attributes.
Chickenlunch and Ian Gill - I agree the Corporal had a good game in goal and we would have lost if he hadn't made a couple of good saves.
Of course one swallow doesn't make a summer so he must maintain a good level of form and dominate the area, particularly the six yard box, in the months to come, to justify his place in the side bearing in mind that Coyne had generally played quite well apart from the disastrous game against WBA. But about 9 others had a shocker against WBA so the blame for that game should not rest on Coyne's shoulders.
I agree Williams had an impressive first half. A couple of passes astray but also a number of interceptions, runs and decent passes, too. I think our best two full backs might be William (R) and Bennett (L), so if you play a back four and in the unlikely event that they were all fit at the same time (and that would be a first!) the question is which two of Wheater, Poggi, St Ledger and Riggott would play centre back.
In centre midfield surely our best two would be O'Neil and Digard (again, IF FIT!!), and obviously Johnson on the Left and made to stayt there. On the right we might start with Emnes to see if he could do it there at this level but I would still like to see Yeates given a chance to play where he was intended. Up front, Lita and Kitson at the start.
So then: Jones; Williams, Wheater and Poggi let's say, with Bennett; Yeates, O'Neill, Digard, Johnson; Lita and Kitson.
I want to see Franks on the bench and if we put those centre backs on at the start we would need to have St Ledger (to come on when Poggi inevitably starts to bleed again), and Riggott, with Coyne and then perm your choices for the rest of the subs.
We dont have time for January and If we play like we do over the past Decembers you can count out promotion. Welcome to The Winter of Discontent. If we dont beat THE POSH on Saturday start heading for the lifeboats. We are sinking faster than The Titanic!
Grove Hill Wallah... Teessiders NEVER defeatist? What are you on? The current breed of Boro fans are the most spineless bunch of lily livered half-wits in the league.
Most of the bottle job Boro fans gave up on the team last year well before Christmas when there was still plenty to fight for. Most wrote this season off before a ball had been kicked. After the first wobble of this season they were queuing up to say "see... relegation form".
They slag new signings off as has beens, crocks or mercenaries before the press conference is even finished and they slag new managers off before the first month is up. If Gibson says we are cutting back a bit they run for the hills squealing abour bankruptcy and liquidation.
A goal from the opposition and the heartless oafs fold immediately, turn on the team and start predicting a thrashing. Sometimes I am embarrassed. I look at teams like Norwich and Leeds who can go down the level below us and sell 20k season tickets or Stoke where the home fans get behind the team for the full 90. That is what a crowd who are never defeatist do. Our idiots moan and predict the end is nigh when we are winning.
Interesting he took the armband off Wheatr. Now with Williams out suspended next match GS2 can put Wheater there and that gives him the chance to bring Riggott in at CB.
If he plays well (and we will beat them) then he can say he wants to keep that pairing in place and bring back a specialist RB... voila, Wheater is dumped on the bench, out of the picture and come January out of the door. There's another £20k a week player gone.
I think Forest deserve credit. For me they are the best team at the Riverside this season. They passed it well, had a lot of pace down both flanks, closed down quickly, played well as a unit and that Moussi was excellent in midfield.
They will be up there at the end of the season and have the best away record in the league so maybe a point is not a bad result.
But what is frightening is how things have changed in a few months. I went to Forest in the Carling Cup and Boro were the better side overall on the night and should have won easily. Forest came back late on through sheer work rate and spirit but it felt like minnows and a giant killing.
On Saturday I felt they were the better side in every department. They have gelled and come on leaps and bounds and we have gone backwards at high speed.
The main difference in the Boro team now is not that Southgate has gone but that Robert Huth has gone. We have never been the same team since the Berlin Wall went. I hope Gibbo thinks the wages saved was worth it.
For me the biggest plus so far is that we've had some brutal honesty.
Under McClaren I lost count of the times that our "passing was magnificent" when it looked anything but.
Under GS1 I became tired of hearing that we'd have to "learn lessons".
GS2 has been upfront about our problems (it's almost like he's been reading the message boards for the last year), and by the sounds of it we were unlucky in his first two games and somewhat lucky to escape with a point on Saturday. He's said as much in his interviews.
I agree with some of the posters that much of our problem is "in our heads"...here's hoping to a morale boosting win on Saturday. I think we still have time to turn things around this season, but wins must start coming soon.
I agree with Boro Russ. This has got to be a 4-0 win or GS2 should pack his bags.
The last time I saw Boro v Posh was on Shoot in the 60's in black and white and we beat them 2 - 1 I think. I hadn't been to a Boro match then as I was too young. But we were in the 3rd division. Now we are Prem league hopefuls and they are at the bottom so no more typical Boro please, ... lets beat them big time.
Tees Exile - I was talking about Teessider's not being defeatist. Please don't confuse football with real life.
I think we were one point behind NUFC when Southgate went. We are now 11! They are not a great team but have adapted to Championship level and go the full ninety minutes. And from all accounts the midfield of Nolan and Smith -both failures in the Prem - have stepped up to the job at the lower level, a department we are struggling in.
No local derbies for us next year I suspect.
John, Aus
Tees Exile, I think you may be understating our current form by calling it a 'wobble' - in fact you can only call it a wobble if we subsequently get back to winning ways and continue to do so.
Also the reason many fans are disgruntled is that they witnessed perhaps the longest slow motion car crash in history last season and those in a postion to change things seemed incapable of acting.
As to this season, we have the worst home record in the league - how positive do you think the fans that pay at the Riverside should be? I would very much doubt that Leeds fans would be turning up in their tens of thousands if they had the worst home record in League 1 - nor would Stoke fans.
I think there is no escape from reality being offered at the Riverside - just a diet of spin and a promise of better times to come.
Tees-Exile - so the success of Man Utd is down to the loyal, hard headed, clear thinking patient fans ? Nothing to do with Ferguson, Rooney, Ronaldo ... Evra.. ? The same fans who give a standing ovation for a back pass by Rio to the goalie.
Chelsea's success is down to the undying uncritical loyalty of the hordes of "west londoners" . Nothing to do with Terry, Drogbha, Mourhino, Abromavich? Norwich ? Not sure what the hell your point is there. Stoke? Jesus, be careful what you wish for.
So you think our problem is down to "spineless, whingeing oafs" who support the Boro? The 5-1 thumping by WBA was because of their brilliant fans? You are the fan equivalent of Roy Keane. You have decided who to blame for every failure (the people of the Boro) and then shoe horn the argument in.
You do understand the basic principles of football don't you? You know what I mean - the team that scores the most goals wins ..... Eleven players on each team ... White posts at each end of the field. ...
Boro fans are not perfect as evidenced by me and particularly you but to blame them for Mido, King, Cattermole..... Emnes .. Morrison is a tad 'Keanesque'
I wonder why Tees Exile left? He seems quite good at sniping and moaning. You'd think he'd love it here.
Anyway, don't rise to the bait. Having a pop at the crowd is just his USP, like Richards is management flow charts and Tony Black's is demanding Gibbo sells up.
You hear worse in the Steelies every week. And they don't go to matches either.
Meanwhile, those suffering from Boronoia may want to check out the Independent today as they've done a feature on the biggest wins in the Premier League - and although they managed to include Boro's 7-0 defeat against Arsenal they forgot to include our 8-1 victory over Man City - needless to say I felt compelled to point this out.
Why are we in mid table? Lies, damned lies and match statistics might provide an answer. To show no bias I have used the match day stats from MFC.
When Gate left we had enjoyed, on average, under 50% possession in all our games. We had averaged around 11 shots a game as had the opposition.
We had played largely lower half teams and been found wanting when we played the better teams, the well organised teams with a bit of skill.
So we were one point of the top but not from a fair sample, it was skewed in favour of MFC. It was like asking members of the Royal British Legion if people should wear poppies on Remembrance Sunday.
Oddly the stats are slightly better since Gate left with possession up to 53% and shots for and against 11.5 and 9.5 respectively. The results havent improved, we are still in the same slide, if doesnt stop we will be well off the pace at Xmas.
It seems to boil down to the fact we cannot control the football. When we have it we attack but dont keep possession, we tend to give it away. Against a good number of sides our attacking quality will work. Against the better organised sides we struggle.
It was the same last season and dont just say it is at home. Think of that long run of away defeats in front of the ultra loyal, travelling, Parmo Army.
Something had to be done, my hope is GS2 is the man to do it.
Wedermouth, I think we should happily forget the 8 - 1 win as it was our worst enemy last season. It papered over the cracks of a fragile 07/08 season and probably made Alves think the Prem was easy.
We all know it was end of season nonsense but it might have made some take their foot off the pedal until it was too late in 08/09. It's been downhill since then.
John, Aus
Stats, stats, stats. That sounds like a pre-emptive defence of GS2 because you are starting to get worried Ian Gill.
Stats mean nothing. You can have 95% of possession and it means nothing if you can’t score with it or defend when the other lot have their 5%.
How do you analysis these stats - played 3, lost 2, drawn 1, F 1, A3 Pts 1 - and come up with the answer that it is somehow an improvement?
Southgate’s last three games Boro took six points and we were one off the top. Strachan’s first three and the same team... no, the same team plus three “improvements”... got one point and are 11 off the top.
Strachan was brought in at the wrong time, we all know that. It is not ideal. But maybe it is not just the timing that is wrong. Maybe has just got the wrong bloke completely.
We were told that the squad is good enough and it was just Southgate that was wrong. An expereinced manager would soon get this squad flying.
But performances, haven’t improved, gates haven’t improved, the players haven’t improved, we are no nearer keeping Adam Johnson, we are no fitter, we are no stronger mentally, we don’t look any more organised, tactically aware or creative and if anything we have less pace now.
Strachan was brought in to ensure promotion this term but now it looks and sounds like he is building for next year. I am at a complete loss as to what he is doing, why and what the club strategy and timescale is now. Gibson needs to come clean and tell us these things.
Craig B - I am worried and it is not a pre emptive defence of Strachan.
Until Gate was sacked the problem I forsaw was him actually getting sacked because the reason would be things were not going well. I was most certainly not in the 'wont go back until Gate is sacked camp' nor did I want us to lose to get him the sack.
There has not been the dead cat bounce a new manager is supposed to bring. I want Strachan to succeed in the same way I wanted Robbo, MacClaren and Gate to succeed because I am a Boro fan.
Statistics can tell all sorts of stories, many of them false, but you cannot turn your back on them totally. It is why I started with the damned lies quaotation.
If you do not keep control of the football you will be punished, the better the opposition the harder it is. If they have more shots they will normally score more than you.
I actually agree with nearly all your points but you assume I am defending Strachan. I am not because we are still in the same slide as we were before. It isnt the cataclismic collapse of last season, more of a little slither down the table.
I still hope Strachan is the man to halt it because I dont fancy a depressing season like the last one. Do we want him to fail as well? Cant see the benefit in that.
I will repeat my oft stated view, our plight was not just down to Southgate, the players, coaches and senior management were all complicit in our demise. Southgate was the boy holding the ball outside the shop as the glass scattered over the pavement, his accomplices had melted away.
Now he has gone we have to hope our new manager gets us back up the table.
I wanted Gate to succed, I take it you want Strachan to fail? Or is that taking a tiny bit of your reply, adding two and two together to make 5.
Or should I take your post in the full, ignore your assumptions about what I am saying, and read into it that, like myself, you think we havent turned things round yet and we are bothered about the rest of the season.
Just a quick stat attack as I can see we love them.
Last five chimpship (that’s what Mrs Smog calls this division, quite apt) seasons.
Points needed to avoid relegation, 46, 52, 42, 42 and 50 = average 46.4. It would take something spectacular for us to go down. Perhaps 12 straight away defeats and no wins in 18 games or summat. We’d never do that!
To gain entry to the play offs, 74,70,75,75 and 73 = 73.4 average. Only one team in the last 5 years finished sixth and won promotion, West Ham with 73 points. The average points for the play off winners are 77.8.
So there you go more numbers that can be made to look like one thing or maybe another. All I know is that 4/5ths of all Statistics graduates have a 33.3% chance of being unemployed this year.
It appears to me that GS2 is doing too much hailing at the moment (not that it is not deserved), and not enough kicking up the backside.
He seems to be changing his public stance, where pre-Boro he was very autocratic and media unfriendly, whereas at Boro he exudes a new calmness. Very strange..... perhaps he has brought Bill Beswick back in to calm him down ! Just the thought brings a shiver.
Ian Gill - I do not want to see Strachan fail. It would be a disaster. But I am deeply worried that he ALREADY HAS.
I remember last summer and all the talk of debts, restructuring, cuts in jobs, the squad and the wage bill and I got the message loud and clear that we HAD to go start back up or our goose was cooked.
Some people may have short memories. The finances problems havent gone away. They are the elephant in the room that some people are trying to ignore even if it is wearing day-glo PJs and banging a drum. We can't afford not to go up.
Strachan was brought in because Gibbo was scared that promotion was drifting away. He was brought in to give a quick fix to make sure we stayed up with the leaders. He was supposed to deliver quick results with a squad we were told was good enough and just needed a kick up the panst. That was the whole point.
But now already after three games the goalposts have been moved and we (and he) are talking about rebuilding in January or next summer and giving him time to get his own team together. WE DON'T HAVE TIME.
If we don't go up this year I fear for the future. Loads of players will leave. Crowds will really collapse. We will be back to square on. The Gibbo era will be dead.
Craig B said:
“Southgate’s last three games Boro took six points and we were one off the top.”
Your window of Southgate’s last three games is obviously chosen to favour him. Let me choose a different window, which doesn’t, his last six games. Southgate’s team had taken seven points from 18. Or take his last nine games, in which we’d taken 13 points from 27. Both better than one point from nine, I agree, but neither anywhere near automatic promotion form.
Perhaps you don’t attend games. But, if you do, cast your mind back to the last of those three games in your window, against Derby at home.
The match was largely dreadful, a dismal affair between two very poor sides. Boro won by gaining a dubious penalty and scoring a wonderful solo goal. Both came from Johnson, who may not be at the club after Christmas. The rest of the team contributed little. And the second goal came at a point in the game where it looked just as likely that Derby would equalise.
“One point off the top” maybe, but on the way down, not up. I agree that so far we’ve continued the slide under Strachan. But let’s just wait for a while and see whether he can arrest it. There’s nothing to be gained by fantasising about what might have been, and then bitching that your dreams aren’t being fulfilled.
Craig B
I agree but I must admit that whilst I didnt think we were getting enough out of the players we already had I didnt think we were good enough to go up in an automatic promotion spot.
Nothing has happenend to change my views.
To suggest a manager has already failed 3 games into a job is just daft. He has had no time to make an impact on the squad.
Gibson wasnt thinking short term when he gave GS the boot. He was doing what is best for the club long term, as any good CEO would. In my opinion he wrongly gave GS his chance in management and after affording him time to learn the job, at the supporters expense may I add, he realised GS wasnt taking the club in the right direction.
Even under Southgate this side never looked like earning automatic promotion. Regime change was critical because failure to bounce straight back up this season wont be a disaster but it will be an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY next season if we dont go up. Gibson didnt belive GS would achieve either.
The more time Strachan has to work on this the better. He will need at least one transfer window to do his stuff and even then we may be relying on teams around us having a bad patch to even make the play offs. Remember this is Southgates weak minded, inexperienced squad that Strachan has got. Please dont hit the panic button yet let him get his own players in then evaluate what he is doing.
However, I must admit i am surprised we didnt win our first few games under GS2, there is usually a honeymoon period when a new manager comes in and the players raise their game.
I think it underlines the fact that this truly is GS's squad, it has his mark all over it, from the lack of passion to the lack of tactical knowledge. These players wanted to play for GS. Were they fully behind the change in management?
I'll start renewing my optimism regarding any promotion prospects after we've achieved three victories in a row as at the moment we're more or less in relegation form.
I have some sympathy with Craig's view that Southgate was replaced in order to secure promotion and the reason to bring in an experienced coach was to ensure our promtion bid didn't falter - though this may well have been spin.
Though any thoughts that we supposedly had a team in place that was good enough should have been dispelled by Gordon's list of targets where only central defence and left wing were blank.
Also Strachan quickly steered away from the notion that his new regime was going to be a quick fix when he said judge me in three and a half years time.
Though probably the only thing that most people will agree on is that during the last couple of years the people who run the club have not had their finest moments.
Gibson had gambled that having Strachan in charge would be a better bet than Southgate and would keep the club on track until the January window opened - it still might be the case but it still might not be enough to get promotion.
One passing thought.
Open windows allow things to fly out as well as in. January may not all be good news and not just because of post Xmas slump.
Craig B
I don't really buy the official line that Strachan was brought in because the team was under-acheiving. At least I don't understand it. Why wasn't Southgate sacked in the summer if results were the key reason?
He was sacked to appease the masses in my opinion.
Out of the Frying pan into the fire. Does anyone think the Strachan is capable of putting a good constructive side to-gether.
Southgate bled for Boro and was ousted badly when the fans turned against him.
I am sure he could have changed the fourtunes and I expect nothing less of Strachan.
Yes it is early days but does Gibson think this appopintment will bring the fans back? I don't think so. Does it have anything with him him recently resigning from Bulkhaul his company that he was fortunate to make his fortune from? Who knows.
He has appointed unspectacular managers from Robson to date (and credit to him) but I can't see this guy doing any better. And really do we want just to be another struggling bottom half premiership team (if we ever get back there)?
Get off the terraces Steve and get back upstairs and to your loyalty and a manager that really can give the fans a team to be proud of and help when he has put on a great performance or reached cup finals and consolidated in the premiership. We are going around in circles.
About the sacking of GS. A lot of, interesting I might add, views on display here today. The responsibility is neither Strachans, nor Southgates.
When the sacking now obviously backfires, speaking short term, the responsibility should be divided between the all too eager Southgate anti-fans and Gibson, who sadly chose to listen to them. Lets forget the excuses about attendances or failing team. They are both proven wrong.
But anyway: Lets not forget that the playoffs are well within our reach and enjoy as Strachan builds a new team. Despite losing some of our assets come January (O'Neill, Johnson, Pogatetz, Wheater) he will probably get enough funds to buy decent replacements.
Andy R said:
"I don't really buy the official line that Strachan was brought in because the team was under-acheiving. At least I don't understand it. Why wasn't Southgate sacked in the summer if results were the key reason? He was sacked to appease the masses in my opinion."
This makes no sense at all. If the opinion of "the masses" was the reason, Southgate would have been sacked well before the end of last season.
Gibson's timing was bad. The decision was right but long overdue.
It used to be fashionable for second division clubs to buy a midfield general from a higher club, to bolster and hopefully ensure a promotion bid. In the Boro's case years ago it was Bobby Murdoch. This team is crying out for experience and drive in the centre of the pitch. My choice would be Paul Scholes. If he was offered a suitably attractive package (player coach) then I think it could be a real possibility.
**AV writes: Boro inquired in the summer. He wasn't interested.
Andy R - Of course Gareth was sacked because the fans demanded it. And of course, some of those fans are now whinging that it was done at the wrong time. Well, you can't have it both ways.
As has been said, it is utterly preposterous to suggest that GS2 has failed already. A lot of Boro fans are hideously negative, and I just have to laugh when people suggest we have NO CHANCE WHATSOEVER of getting automatic promotion. All it takes is a run of wins to get us right back in there. I genuinely think some people enjoy being miserable.
Guess what? Apparently the team is useless! And we are still only three points off a play off spot with 20 odd games to go. I hope you are all at the stadium when we do hit form, this league is just above the old fourth div level.
I think there is some over coaching going on. Tell the team to relax, express themselves. On paper we are more talented than the rest, get out there and enjoy it. Play the game as it happens: sometimes, get stuck in and long ball ,other times keep ball wear em out,
The only thing stopping us from winning at home are the negative reaction from the fans, Yes, you have a right to moan ( WE all do it) but come on, there's nothing to beat, lets get back to to who we really are, an Island called Middlesbrough FC.
I don't see how anybody can blame the fans for wanting a change from having to endure a lot of poor football - they've been expected to accept relegation was down to circumstance out of the club's control and now are being expected to be patient whilst they wait to see if a faltering promotion attempt can be revived.
It's now been over 10 weeks since the promotion campaign came off the rails against West Brom - during which the supporters have had only ONE victory to enjoy, FOUR defeats and last week we escaped with a draw, not to mention only THREE goals to cheer.
I'm one of the lucky ones who resides at a safe distance from the horror show but several of my season-ticket-holding relatives would trade in their seat for a sofa to hide behind at the Riverside.
So those who wish to put the blame at the fans for being negative should start sharing around their elixir of eternal optimism because in the real world nobody can feel happy under those circumstances.
"**AV writes: Boro inquired in the summer. He wasn't interested. "
Perhaps the Count could whisper an offer into his ear that he can't refuse?
**AV writes: What, like "we'll move Middlesbrough 100 miles closer to Oldham?"
Mythbuster
Of course it makes sense. Majority opinion may have been against Southgate long before he was sacked but it was only when attendances dropped to near 50% of capacity that action was taken. That costs the club an awful lot of money and Gibson must have felt that he had to act.
By my calculation on the home attendances for PL matches from Feb to season end last year, average attendance was over 29000 (although this is slightly inflated by games against Liverpool and Man Utd). I think that shows that supporters were at least turning up, even if they were against him.
This season, at the end of September when Strachan was approached, we were averaging under 21500. A significant drop then, and it's my opinion that once supporters starting voting with their feet, Southgate was sacked.
I'm not against Gibson replacing Southgate. I think the club needed a new direction to give most supporters a sense of hope again. It's most unfortunate that Strachan hasn't had a flying start to give everyone belief but, for what it's worth, I'm backing him to get us back into the Premiership, if not this year then next.
It's the Southgate scapegoating I can't abide.
Don't be ridiculous AV!
Move Oldham 100 miles closer to the Boro!
I dont accept the fans were responsible for Gate going.
Many fans saw exactly what Gibson and Lamb saw. Many fans walked away in the summer because a weakened squad was going to try and put right faults that hadn't been rectified.
We knew from previous seasons that the squad could play some good football but was unable to control the football, we knew that a team with a bit of fire in their belly and an element of skill would cause us problems.
I know statistics are the bane of everyones life and in reality it is the scores on the doors that matter. Despite that they do give some evidence to trends etc. It is why I did my bit on possession etc above.
At the time of Gate leaving we cannot get away from the fact we had lost three games in a row at home. We cannot get away from the fact we only had a couple of points against top half teams and we had mostly played the strugglers.
Like many fans I fully expected to pick up points against those teams. I was worried about getting points against promotion contenders and that has proved correct so far this season.
As I said several threads ago John Harvey-Jones said that if if you change you may get it wrong but if you dont change you have definitely got it wrong.
Grove Hill mentioned Bobby Murdoch and it got me thinking about the team that Jack built. That team was built on people who could score and people who could defend but they had Graeme Sounness in midfield to knit it all together.
That is one of our core problems, we cannot control the football, we struggle to pass to each other and surrender possession.
Was Gate the man to put it right? He built the squad with no little help from our senior management. It showed the same flaws from last season.
We will never find out but we must hope the new incumbent can do so. What I will say is that anyone who thought there was nothing wrong was maybe seeing something in Gate that the rest were missing or not.
It was the football that got Gate the bullet not the fans. As I walked away from the Baggies, Leicester and Watford game there was little real anger in many of the fans around me. It was more a realisation that something had to change.
I'm stunned that anyone would think it wasn't the fans that forced Gareth out. It was clearly the dwindling attendances that finally forced Gibson's hand, so the stay-aways who promised never to return while Gareth was here got what they wanted.
Unfortunately for Gibson, most of them are still staying away.
I was concerned enough about the current Boro situation but then yesterday and today brings an outbreak of 'Allan's Law' in action.
Allan's Law states that how well Boro are doing is in inverse proprtion to the number of players and coaches wheeled out to do PR telling the (assumed to be dumb) punters that everything is OK and that we're 'aiming for Europe/confident of staying in the Prem/still confident of automatic promotion/top six/'we're no worse than a lot of others/'you don't talk about must win'/we know what it takes to put this right etc.
See Messrs Arca, Coops et al - and to a lesser extent, Pogi - in the media in recent days and be afraid..... be very afraid.
The emergency loans window closes tomorrow and we're still without the right sided creative midfielder Boro have desperately needed for several seasons now.
Strachan is alleged to be focused on January now, but with the second of the pre-Xmas 'season shaping six game slam' (at least Pogi has recognised we need at least four wins from these games) coming up and only a streaky draw from the first of those, January may well be too late.
If there's to be no midfield addition this week, then the issue is how to shape up what's there. And, for me, the focus has to be on the midfield as the key to team play.
Boro’s travelling Parmo Army for Saturday's game will also hope that Strachan’s head-scratching about the right formula and formation for goals, clean sheets and wins results in more than another pile of dandruff.
But we are still waiting for the graft as well as the craft.
Strachan’s Boro are, evidently, no fitter and no stronger of body, head and heart than the previous incarnation and don’t draw strength from one another because they are no better organised or disciplined and there’s no settled side, no settled partnerships and no settled units.
But, player for player, Boro can field a first eleven and a couple of subs that can compare well in qualities with the teams above them, with the exception (perhaps) of the top two for experience.
Time - and to an extent, my patience - is running out for the new, experienced manager dividend to make itself felt.
I hope (rather than yet expect) to see it at London Road.
BoroPhil, surely it was the poor home performances under Southgate that reduced the attendances and it's the lack of improvement that have continued to keep them low.
You can't expect people to return to the Riverside until Boro get their act together.
Nothing has changed, its like last season all over again but in a lower league with a worse team.
Attacking midfielder with vision required, bring Back Tuncay, bring back Huth. The left back position has been a load of rubbish since Frank left and Pog got injured the first time. It will be a miracle if we make the play offs.
So Mr Southgate was sacked to "appease the fans" many of you say. If this was correct he would have gone the season before last. He was not a goood manager of the BORO Team, either the team he inherited or the team he put together.
Lets forget about finances, forget about selling players, forget about budgets. He put sqaure pegs in round holes, his tactical sense was nil. Yes we were one point off the top of the league based on points won against the lowly teams of the division. We never won one game against better opposition and did not even score against four of them.
It would appear that Gibson saw the error of his thoughts too late. Was it not said "I was going to sack him three weeks previously." The crowds were dwindling moral was low. IT WAS TIME FOR CHANGE and not before time.
Mr Strachan has also inherited a very mediocre team left by Mr Southgate and he has tried to get forwards in to score goals. It has not happened for him in his three games so far, but at least give him a chance to turn things around.
At least we dont have to listen to the weekly cry of Mr Southgate "we have lessons to learn." The problem was Mr Southgate, you NEVER DID LEARN ANY LESSONS
It's a fairly horrible thing to have to come to terms with the fact that Boro are now a mid-table championship side, both in terms of position and players ability, and the anger required before the hollow feeling of acceptance is being shown on this forum at the moment it seems.
We have perhaps two or three Premiership quality players, the best of which has rightly decided he's leaving, either in Jan or at the end of the season, and GON has been given the captaincy in a bid to keep him here.
The rest of the team already proved it wasn't good enough for the Premiership, and will need changing if we get there, sold on to other clubs at the level we are currently at, hence this is their skill level.
To improve the situation the only real solution is better players, so the ambition of MFC to reattain premiership status will be shown with the amount of Hard Cash given to GS2 in January. Ambition=Cash, anything else is just wishing and daydreams.
How much cash will be fronted in this gamble will be the interesting part, but three points away from only a 25% chance of promotion (or mid table as it is known) isn't the most healthy starting position.
For those that say GS2 should have started earlier, please realise that the blame for the selling of our Premiership quality players in the summer had to be laid at the feet of GS1 so as not to infect GS2 with fan hatred, and GS2 would have to have sold all the same players, but would be a fan boo target by now.
**AV writes: I agree with most of that.
I hate to admit it, but I had expected more from GS2 than he has delivered so far (in points terms that is). I had expected that Plymouth home, a typical Boro banana-skin would be a nice gentle start, and even proposed that GS2 delayed taking the reigns then was perhaps to avoid a tough game away at Preston, which could have got his reign off to a defeat for start.
However, it didn't turn out that way. Far from blaming Strachan - we should, as Jaguar Boy says, be looking at the players. We have a mediocre, inexperienced bunch of players. They showed that from their reaction to the new boss coming in. You ordinarily expect teams to give their absolute all for a new boss, to cement their place and impress.
Our lot couldn't do it - even in front of a home crowd looking for a response, against a lower-table side - the perfect mix.
I don't believe that GS was hard done by, and I don't believe that our higher league position when he was booted out suggest that he was a better manager. He wasn't. His record was appalling, and other than the Sheff Wed win - we didn't look up to much or see much different from last season.
Having said all that, in previous seasons it's been the teams who can go on a 4-6 game winning streak that surge out from the pack and make the play offs/automatic spots. I'm not sure I can see us doing that at the moment, so the future does not look very bright...
I think a more accurate barometer rather than focussing on the Southgate / Strachan debate is to consider that after the departure of Huth and Tuncay we have amassed 15 points from 13 games - a very poor return.
I'm sure that if we had retained one or both of those players the results would have been dramatically different.
Steve Gibson talks of promotion but that is all it is - talk.You do not get promoted by getting rid of quality and bringing in second raters. Kitson, Bent and Folan are probably getting in combined wages from us what we were paying Tuncay.Where is the value in that???
Jaguar Boy -
I guess Paul Hart felt pretty badly done to at Pompey. He tried to manage a squad that was disappearing before his very eyes, he kept going as owners came and went then just as they seemed to have weathered the storm and Pompey were showing signs of improved form he got the bullet. They clearly wanted to take all the pain before giving a blank sheet of paper to the new man.
I think our situation is slightly different in that I believe Gibbo wanted Gate to succeed - just like a lot of us.
When and John Powls and I talked about the situation at Boro post the Baggies and pre Gates departure we discussed some of the things I have posted on this particular thread. We guessed Gate would have until roughly the end of November unless we picked up points in the trickier matches coming up and were up with the front runners.
As it turned out Gibbo had already made the decision. One suspects it was a case of when rather than if by what we have heard since.
I suspect my view of the window may prove correct with incoming being matched by outgoing. Gibbo has to be careful about a potential backlash if a war chest suddenly becaomes available after all the struggles though he could sell it as being a result of previous prudence.
We also have several loan players coming to the end of their time with us so we may see quite a turnaround of personnel with the resultant unsettling of the team.
It is going to be an interesting few months as we hold on to the Boro roller coaster.
Jaguar Boy - an excellent appraisal of where we are at. It's shocking, the speed at which we have hurtled from UEFA cup finalists to average championship side.
We may reach the play offs this season but I wouldn't bet on it now. If we did and managed to get promotion, where would that leave us? Odds on for instant relegation and a season of abject misery at the bottom of the Premiership would be a realistic possibility.
We are now well and truely confronted by the fact that todays professional football is a very simple equation; 'money = success.' Spurs are an excellent example of how spending power can propel you into being champions league contenders. Boro an excellent example of how weak spending can propel you to mediocrity.
I suppose football success is cyclical like most things in life, at the moment Boro are very much on a downward curve. If GS2 can change that trajectory and get us into the play offs from where we are now he will have done very very well.
Ian Gill
I would agree that Gibbo wanted GS1 to succeed, but my point is that it may very well have been an issue of timing - if rather than when as you rightly say, and if the decision was actually made in the summer to allow GS1 to take the flak for the required player sales and move him on once a new manager was found.
Who knows how long it takes to find a manager and agree a deal? MFC could have been talking to GS2 for a long time before a deal was agreed, and could show Gibbo and the count in a very cold calculating light, even if it was in the best interests of MFC.
It is all water under the bridge and really past debating. All we can hope for is as much cash for AJ as possible in the window (maybe with a loan back to us), and for Gibbo to show as much "ambition" as possible and give plenty of cash to GS2 to spend who we hope will do so wisely, and as many good results as can be generated with what we've got between now and then.
Nigel, whilst I agree that in football money = success it's probably more that success is directly proportional to your wage bill, which equates to the quality of your players.
It's probably possible to get close to breaking even on transfers if you know what you're doing and move players on before they either lose value or run down their contracts - but far too many of our recent purchases were gambles that didn't pay off.
Boro's problem now is that most of our assets have been sold we will need quite a significant investment in transfer fees to regain anything like mid-table obscurity in the PL.
Though what would be a sustainable wage bill in the PL for a club of Boro's resources - £30-40m? where £15m = 6 players on £50k a week or 15 players on £20k a week - but I guess we'll cross that bridge if we get to it.
Nigel at 2.30pm - whilst money might equal success, far more important in raising Spurs in my view is the tactical "nous" of their manager 'Arry Redknapp, and his ability to get the most out of his players. If we had been able to get the best out of ours last season we would not have finished below Hull City or Sunderland and would not have been relegated.
And as Werdermouth said at 3.04pm whilst money is important it is more the amount you have for wages than the amount to buy players that counts. 'Arry might spend a lot but also sells players and so recoups some of their value, and might make the odd very profitable sale, too.
We have tended to pay over the odds to get players, we have often bought them on the downwards slope of their careers, and have therefore sold at a big loss or had to see them leave for nothing at the end of their contracts. We seem to be good at the latter.
Oh to be able to dig out an unknown like Anelka for very little money and then (after getting quite a few goals and some value from him) sell him at a vast profit thereafter. Profit that can then be ploughed into a new purchase or three. Mr Wenger seems to have either a very good scouting system or be extremely lucky. But if you keep doing it, it can't be luck, can it?
I suppose someone at the club has thought to go and have a chat with Arsene, haven't they, to see what his secret is? Not to try to steal him or his coaching staff (some hope!) but to learn and to see what he has been doing right that we could adapt to our needs and bank balance.
Surely even we at the Boro could offer enough to tempt...I don't know, but some tasty Uraguayan or Argentinian battling youngsters or some talented and athletic ball-players from the likes of South Africa, Mali or Nigeria.
Are things so bad it's better to stay in sub-Saharan Africa than to come to Teesside? Or is it that our net no longer covers as wide an area?
These statistical debates bug me. As a professional teacher, I know how dull the people are who try to measure progress by figures - and how many new levels of stupidity they bring into the thinking of honest teachers.
In reality, educational progress takes place in individuals, not in "cohorts"; very exciting things can happen in education across large numbers of pupils, as I occasionally was lucky enough to observe with things like school plays, where groups get excited and bring each other on in great big leaps. But I have never known groups to make progress via management initiatives or, still less so, by government initiatives.
Does this have anything to do with the situation at the Boro? Maybe not, but maybe so.
On the money thing, do we all remember Bruce Rioch paying out of his own pocket for the kitman's car to be repaired? Do we think this kind of commitment had nothing to do with the improbable improvements he achieved from the utmost in bargain basement squads? I, for one, don't. This magical work had to do with heart, with soul and with complete commitment.
I would say that, although you may have to pay good wages to attract good footballers, paying good wages does not mean you get good footballers or good football teams.
Big wages to Ravanelli ensured a fair return in terms of Premiership goals (16 in a season, for example, nothing special)and he cheesed people off to the extent they assaulted him in the team bus, but many of the big earners gave us very little in fact. Tuncay did little when he was not on TV; Huth was injured a lot, so was Viduka. On many occasions, Hasslebaink was no great asset. I have never seen a more arrogant demonstration of contempt than Yakubu at Burnley pre-season (before he went to Everton). Anyone who thinks we should have kept him did not see him on that day.
What hurts me most about our recent history is the fact that we can't seem to bring our Academy lads on as well as other clubs can bring them on. I was (together with, I think, Gareth Southgate) genuinely buying in to the (OK, romantic, but romance and soul go together) idea that our club could survive and, in time, thrive with our own lads at the heart of the team.
Turnbull or Jones; McMahon, Bates or Wheater, Davies, Hines or Williams, Taylor or Grounds, Morrison, Cattermole, Someone Bought In or Downing or Johnson, Graham and Franks or Porritt. OK, so I'm an idiot! But not such an idiot, since no other Premiership club could come anywhere near as close as this to providing its own team. And I was rightly proud of bragging about this fact.
Well, we're all slagging David Wheater off now (not me: I saw his emotion at West Ham, which was as genuine as you will ever see from a professional player, as genuine as Juninho's tears) and talking about our lads like Tayls and Grounds and Brad Jones as if they are rubbish (which they are not) and keeping ridiculous arguments going about whether Gareth could have done better than Gordon etc.
It's heartbreaking. My biggest hope is that GS2 doesn't sweep "clean" and send Aliadiere off to Fulham where the best manager of the lot (Hodgson) will make his speed and skill count for something, send one of the quickest players around off to show what a decent winger he could be (Emnes, not really asked to do his job yet) and give Digard away to someone who can see a good midfielder in him, give Williams back to Burnley where he was valued, Hines back to where he was a success, McMahon back to Sheff Wed where he was applauded warmly when he appeared this year, etc. etc. etc.
If that happens we will end up with a bunch of mediocre pros who weren't really wanted by anyone and have no real interest or desire in proving that this town is a deep-down, thoroughly passionate football town.
Sorry, I have gone on too long, I know, but I am still very proud of our club and what we have built here. I still don't think any other club has as much to be proud of as ours. And it is an arrow to my heart to hear people who I know love this club deeply as they set about slagging off our players who have worked very hard to be as good as they are.
We need a creative midfield player still who has authority like Souness or Peter Eustace, but we have some great potential at the club still - I would say more of them than Bruce Rioch inherited - and we cannot make anything better by fouling our own nest.
I would rather support the Middlesbrough Football Club than Gordon Strachan's fantasy team any day of the week. (No disrespect to Gordon, who is a good man and a football man and a manager we are lucky to have.) But can't we stop demoralising our lads? Please? Pretty please?
halifaxp-that's the best post I've read on here for several weeks.Interestingly enough I'm told Emnes played on the right wing this evening for the ressies and scored two goals to boot.
stockton red
Which one -right or left?
John Aus
Halifax P - what about toe poke though? ( (Hamilton Ricard) I liked him. He always had a crack at goal and produced unexpected goals to liven up a maych.
Halifax P - I agree with what you say, I believe the current squad is full of triers and are doing their best.
It is harnessing their sundry talents that is the tricky bit and how we could do with a footballer to put his foot on the ball and look around for options, someone always available who can pick a pass but is also an athlete. The closest is probably Arca but I dont think he has the legs or physique for it never his propensity for the drag back and twirl.
It is not just a holding/destroying midfielder we need but someone who pulls the team together but where on earth do we get one. Are Digard and Walker capable of that role? One is never fit and the other keeps being abducted by aliens.
O'Neill? He is a workaholic who will run all day and like many of our players would be ideal alongside the man we need.
Williams is a right back despite his valiant efforts.
Problem is most clubs need someone to be that man in midfield, wonder if Fabregas likes Parmos?
In answer to Ian Gill. We had one a very good midfield player Lee Cattermole and Southgate detroyed him. He never really played the lad in his true position.
What happened when he signed for Steve Bruce? He was played in his true position and got man of the match in nearly all the games he played. Steve Bruce thought so much of him he signed him for Sunderland and the his play continued untill he got injured.
Remember what I wrote above earlier. Southgate round pegs in square holes. Steve Bruce got the best out of the lad.
The problem with footballers is that they want it both ways - they've managed to convince themselves that they're actually worth over £20k a week (or in some cases more than double that) but seem unable to perform the most basic of skills required by their chosen profession as soon as the slightest of pressure falls on their precious shoulders.
And then if they don't get picked by the manager then they're demanding a move or if they suddenly think they've been playing better than average they either want a pay rise or will engineer a move to a 'better' club.
Also there's probably a reason why most premiership clubs don't field teams of academy graduates - on the whole they might have the odd good game individually but they appear to lack the overall ability and mental strength to consistently win matches as a team.
OK if you stick with this principle then they will find their level as a team but it's probably at the lower reaches of the Championship rather than in the PL - as Crewe discovered and Boro were on their way to discovering too - plus better players will regularly jump ship unless you can match their ambition.
I think the romantic notion that you can build a team of local lads and take them to the top belongs to an age before football became a multimillion pound industry - Strachan is a realist and will try to build a team based on ability but I think sadly the days of putting loyalty to the club before self-interest are of a different age.
Forever Dormo - I agree with you that Spurs employing 'Arry' was the catalyst they needed to become top four contenders, but it is their buying power which has given them the potential. If 'Arry' was at Boro last season we would probably have stayed up but we'd be nowhere near the top four.
Halifax P is right in stating we have plenty of committed players, the problem is they are inexperienced and some of them aren't committed enough. I'm not a fan of Aliadiere for example, I think he lacks guts.
What we need is a couple of experienced leaders on the pitch and goodness knows where we get those who have the quality we need.
I think there is every chance that Strachan will be capable of instilling into this squad the self belief which is currently lacking, whether he can do it in time to get us up this season is debatable.
Dave Connor
I tried not to bring up the fact the club discarded every central midfield in the summer of 08 and brought in a crock for the future.
Now you mention it.....
halifaxp wrote: "But can't we stop demoralising our lads? Please?"
This reminds me of the "Keep the faith" campaign of last season, which the club and the Evening Gazette (to its eternal shame) promoted. Did it make one scrap of difference? No.
Werdermouth (11.43AM) gives a realistic portrait of the modern professional footballer. Read that and stop blaming the fans for the shortcomings of the players.
Maybe these players can be turned into a skilful, disciplined and committed squad.
The real problem you need to address is why they aren't that right now. Why is it that the Academy players, who clearly weren't good enough in the Premier League, are also proving not to be good enough in the Championship?
Whether Strachan can perform a coaching miracle while these players are at Boro, given its recent history, seems very doubtful to me. I hope I am wrong about that, because it would be the ideal solution to the current problems.
You are concerned that some of these players may do better elsewhere. That may very well happen, but their failure at Boro is not the fault of the fans. Put the blame where it belongs.
**AV writes: Backing the club when it was in trouble = eternal shame? Blimey.
AV writes: "Backing the club when it was in trouble = eternal shame?"
No. The actual equation was
Throwing up a smokescreen instead of addressing the real issues = eternal shame
**AV writes: We did address the real issues on the pitch out, week in, week out. Relentlessly. There was no escape from that. But equally there was no escape from the fact that the chairman was quite adamant that no matter what the circumstances he was not going to sack Southgate during the season.
By our calculations calling for the manager's head in those circumstances may have been a populist gesture that sold a few papers but it was disruptive and destructive and could only undermine the team at a time when, even with a few games to go, survival was still possible.
The Gazette would have backed Custer at Little Big Horn!
**AV writes: Bad analogy. Of course we would have backed Custer. Would you back the enemy just because they were more likely to win?
I agree with Ian Gill that harnessing the talent is the difficult bit, and the place of the highly paid professional in a club like ours is to set an example, encourage and educate (along with the coaches, of course)the younger lads.
Gordon Strachan said on arrival that he liked working with young players and improving their game - music to my ears! I just hope he does not mean working with Aston Villa's players, improving them and sending them back at our expense!
Mythbuster, I do already recognise the realities of the modern game, so I do not need to be told to "read that", although I did of course read Werdermouth's words (as I always do) with great interest.
My pride in this club revolves around the fact that - and I think it is a fact - we have been much better than other clubs in bringing on loads of capable players; we are an exception to the rule that clubs are things to be bought by outsiders and used as personal playthings, as if they are a 3-D Panini scrapbook - with the players feeling no real commitment or interest in the local population or community.
I also feel that Teessiders have as strong a passion for our team and our football, as any other group of fans - and a far stronger passion than most. That is our soul; that is why we do achieve Romantic dreams now and then; that is why I am not so stupid as you think I am in holding that romantic feeling up as a prize asset of our beloved club.
Do you actually think it is helpful for posters to respond to suggestions that David Wheater might move on with "good riddance", or might it be better for this young man to hear and be reassured that he's "one of our own"? If you think the former is the right way to proceed, well, I do not agree. He's young; he needs support; he has a lot to learn, but he is not "rubbish" and should not be rubbished.
I also do not anywhere in my post blame the fans for the shortcomings of our players: that is far too simplistic. I don't blame the manager, the coaches or the players either in isolation: in fact, every player - as every human being - has shortcomings.
Souness was quite slow and could be a very dirty player indeed, for example. Cattermole was a hothead who kept getting booked. His passing could be woeful. George Best and Jimmy Greaves were alcoholics. Bobby Moore was slow and also a drinker. How managers, coaches, team-mates and supporters deal with these shortcomings is what concerns me. That's why Ian Gill is right: harnessing and balancing out shortcomings is what makes a good team and also a good manager.
Because we have so many younger players who have shown medium-term commitment already to this club, a good manager should have something really valuable to work with there - a fund of players' knowledge about each other's games, weaknesses and strengths. To me, that has got to be worth something in a team game.
My post was trying only to express the hope that Gordon Strachan respects the fact that we have a lot of promising young players who need building up in just the way that some other clubs' coaches seem to have been able to do (Steve Bruce with Cattermole, Owen Coyle with Williams for example).
And perhaps also to suggest that playing experimental games with other teams' cast-offs might bring occasional short-term hopes for a Boro fan-base who have had a real bashing and are desperate for signs of hope from anywhere (Bent seemed to look good to the good folk of these boards in his first game; now posters say he's rubbish too) but this strategy does not seem like a great way to build a half-decent team. Too much guesswork and disruption is involved.
We simply can't afford to build a team of superstars now: would the real superstars ever come here except for one final, lucrative pay-day? Have they actually done so in the past - apart from Juninho, of course?
Robson threw Gibson's money around like water, buying one left-footed centre forward after another until he finally got one who alienated the whole team: two of his full-backs, Fleming and Cox were (in my humble view) nowhere near as good as McMahon, Bennett, Williams and Grounds; two other full-backs, Ziege and Luke Young left us in the lurch. For all Robson's "investment" or, to me, wastage of money, his results were not much better than Southgate's. A couple of mid-table Premier League finishes, one ninth; and a relegation.
So, it's all well and good recognising the mercenary nature of many modern footballers, but can't we recognise as well that sport is very much involved with romance, feelings, commitment, passion? Isn't that where the real interest is?
And if we do recognise that it's about feelings, then comments from the "fans" to the effect that McMahon, Tayls, Emnes, Wheater, Aliadiere, Jones, Bent, Digard, Grounds, Folan and Wheater are all rubbish - and that Southgate was "clueless ... an idiot" are not likely to help promote the commitment and passion we need from the players or managers we have got. Are they?
(And my list of targets is not complete, of course: even Johnson has been called rubbish on these boards this year!!)
**AV writes: Bad analogy. Of course we would have backed Custer. Would you back the enemy just because they were more likely to win?
Are you calling the fans the enemy Kemo Sabee?
Completely agree with this AV. I have wondered about Williams for a while, and in terms of ball winning and getting around the field, Osborne and O'Neill is a decent pairing I think. A lightweight midfield has hurt us over the years, and I think we will get physically harder as well as more experience as Strachan rebuilds this team.
A notable shift of substance rather than style is grounds for optimism in my mind.
Reported by PA in Yahoo! News yesterday, 25 Nov 2009 12:59PM:
"Scottish researcher Dr Gordon Strachan said it is plausible Jesus may have visited Britain to further his learning".
Apparently they've made a film about it. "Life of Gareth"?
AV - your reply to Grove Hill wallah at 3.07pm: but would the Gazette have challenged Custer's ability to lead, to enthuse the warriors under his command, to set up his troops in a formation to make it best for them and more difficult for the enemy, and would the Gazette have challenged the tactics he employed?
Was it critical of a management that, as we know from more recent dislcosures, only saw relegation "come out of the blue" as the season ended?
Further to earlier posting, and to be fair to you Vic, I went back into the archives. In January this year, for instance, and whilst I don't know what Unlce Eric was saying at the time, you were critical of what had been going on as we looked towards our own Little Big Horn.
Jan 31st - "Dismal display deepens Basement Gloom" - starting out a game we should have been setting out to win with FIVE central defenders and no real midfield at home to Blackburn.
Jan 18th - West Brom "demoralising scale of the defeat.....WBA organised, motivated and up for it" (and by implication Boro were not) and "....10 without a win and turned over by the basement boys..."
Jan 11th - not exactly effusive praise after a draw against relegation rivals Sunderland. (Actually the thing linking these is that they were all our relegation competitors).
....and no doubt there was more. The problem is that no-one at the club seems to have been listening.
If we draw or lose on Saturday it could be a monumental point in MFC's recent history.
The Foamee's will struggle to hold the high ground and the Bedwetters will run out of Tena pads! Crowds will collapse even further making a January spending spree unlikely and the level of deserters even greater.
There are a lot more than just 3 points riding on Saturday's result, it could be the defining point where Boro's hopes of a return to the Premiership died or kept the light barely flickering.
Forever Dormo at 7:52pm:
For "Custer's Last Stand" read "Boro's Upper West Stand" ?
Saturday sees us play a team we should beat comfortably. They are not huge brutes and try to play football. They are porous at home but do score goals. We should have too much pace and quality for them.
But should is the operative word. It only takes a few percentage points drop off in attitude and performance to cause problems but I am going for a first win under Strachan.
If we don't come back with three points it is difficult to see us getting enough in the following games up to Xmas to get into the top six ready for Santa.
**AV writes: We we don't win I've got big problems hairwise. When GS2 arrived I needed a hair cut but I vowed not to until he got his first victory. I already have hair like Jedward. If we don't beat Peterborough I could be going to the Scunthorpe game on Boxing Day looking like the Alarm.
Hello Ian Gill. Sorry to be a little slow, but what did your response mean?
All I was saying was Mr Southgate never got the best out of the lad by playing him in his wrong position and Mr Bruce did. As for the gent who said Souness being slow. He would be possibly the first player I would put in any team of mine. He was right though it is the way the manager plays. them .
Thank you all writers on here, it certainly makes interesting reading
Mythbuster; backing the club equates to eternal shame? I think the shame is all yours!
A couple of interesting posts regarding the academy players and relative levels of success. Surely no one can argue that Boro's academy is one of the most succesful in the country? Players such as Downing, Johnson and Cattermole show that, plus plenty of others at Boro or now elsewhere.
The problem is a premiership team and almost certainly a Championship team cannot rely on its academy only, especially one that recruits almost entirely from the local area.
There is also the wider issue of the ability of English/British players compared to those from say the continent such as Holland for example. British kids simply aren't given the coaching needed to develop their individual skills, ball control etc. Which is why Arsenal's and Man Utd's academys are full of foreign players and even then most of them don't make the first team.
Playing elite support is as much about mental toughness as ability and spotting 'mental toughness' in a teenager is very very difficult. We have a great academy which we can be proud of but that alone is nowhere near enough to give us a team which can survive in the premiership.
Why we are so worried that only Boro will possibly loose players in January. This is more likely happen to others in this league than us. The papers reported today that Manchester United have concluded a deal for Cardiff's teenage defender Adam Matthews, who will move to Old Trafford for £5m in the January transfer window.
So we are the big players and we have above average squad in the C'ship. And I believe GS2 have some money to spend as well as Sean Saint is staying January window.
So let's be positive for a while. Up the Boro!
Very good Richard and well spotted - It's an unbelievable coincidence that we've had both the messiah and the anti-christ working at the same club.
Redcar Red, you a right that the Boro may well face an Exodus tomorrow... but according to Uncle Eric he is not expected to start.
Surely there's some serious mileage in that name that you will be putting to good use AV?
**AV writes: Oh yes, quite puntastic. If he comes on and scores it will be a smiting of Biblical proportions but no doubt GS2 can still lead us to the Promised Land. Etc
Dave Connor
I was pretending not to dwell on the full central midfieldbotomy that we managed in the summer of 08. I was trying to look forward but without much success.
I suppose the Boro are a bit like Christmas Carol with Keith Lamb in the role of Scrooge. Gate could be Bob Cratchit and downing Tny Tim. Charley Amer could be Marley. Sadly we cant replay it and get a happy ending.
Nigel
There is also another problem with too many academy kids. ManU had their golden gereation and then the supply seemed to dry up.
You cannot play them all unless like ManU they were supremely talented but even than they were sprinkled with imports from other British teams and overseas. You end up with blockages and players not developing. Managers tend to play their big earners or someone above them asks why they were bought.
I guess, at best, you may be able to get 2 or 3 a year breaking into the team without it undermining performances.
If you can make money out of the academy as well that is a bonus.
Nigel said:
"Mythbuster; backing the club equates to eternal shame?"
I didn't write that, AV did. Read more carefully.
Nigel, I agree we can't ever just rely on our local lads or the products of our Academy. You need players from outside as leaders or to fill in where the Academy is not producing the right kind of player - strikers, perhaps, over the last few years.
We need a coherent strategy which has at its heart the things that are undeniably strong about our club, the Academy, the training facilities and the passion of our fanbase.
While we still have this talented stream of Academy talent - and Dave Parnaby who keeps bringing the lads on -, and since WGS is clearly interested in bringing the lads on as fully blooded professionals, we have a potential goldmine and should do everything we can as a club, including us supporters, to keep this production line going and thriving.
This way, local lads will continue to see the Boro as a really good place to learn their trade, better than most other Academies. The golden goose will then keep dropping eggs.
For all these reasons, I think it is also important to bring in the right kind of professionals to flesh out the team. What a brilliant example Pogi gave, for example, at the Forest match (even if he does wish to leave for the sake of his career). O'Neil is the right kind of captain, as most people agree. Downing also showed a good example before he left by continuing to battle for us.
Boksic, Ravanelli and Yakubu (as just three examples of big time Charlies who've sucked our bank accounts dry) - all very talented, no doubt - showed the wrong kind of example.
I don't think it's too fanciful to suggest that big-time-charlieism may be where the young talent we've brought through so far may suddenly be hitting a glass ceiling - with some possibly falling victim to inflated self-importance (modelled on such arrogance) or to the blandishments of agents who persuade them they are too good for the club that's made them.
They may then start to work less hard at their game than, I suspect, the kids who move on who have to prove themselves all over again to a new club, as Danny Graham, James Morrison etc had to.
If the club has not already investigated this, it might be a useful thing to have a good hard review of how our coaches can achieve what Wenger and Ferguson seem to manage, which is to keep their good young ones on a steady and continuously improving path to become top pros.
Exodus 2:24-25, "God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Gibson, with Lamb and with Strachan. So God looked on the Boroites and was concerned about them."
halifaxp at 5.48pm - I think we are in agreement at least with the idea we should be looking at what the management and coaches are doing at the top clubs, and see if we could learn from them. See my post on 25th at 7.54pm.
Isn't that how progress is made? Look at what the successful performers are doing and see whether some of their work could be adapted to our needs, to improve what WE are doing. Particularly if those successful performers keep on doing it consistently over years.
Wenger, Ferguson, 'Arry (go back further if you like but let's keep it simple). It isn't LUCK that makes them consistently improve players and teams. Yes, they may now have more money than we have, but they'd do well with less. Were Aberdeen a rich club?
Look at their methods and try to use those parts which we can. It really shouldn't be rocket science.
There is a joke about crosses in there somewhere but I am steering well clear!
Preview of Peterborough game for all interested;
http://www.comeonboro.com/columns/314020.php
AV
I hope you can have a haircut after today but maybe an Aliadiere foppish bob might just suit you.
Will we win? My view is yes based on the fact we are in a bit of a pickle if we dont.
We should have too much quality and if we put the effort in should be too good for Peterborough.
But football thows up odd results, which would 'odder' a home or away win?
I reckon that, whilst AV was on the A1 down to Peterborough, there will have been an avalanche of posts all trying to get the big, fat, round 100. Honestly, haven't you all got something better to do?
We will win today.
Left leg shinner...rolls agonisingly slowly towards the goal line...goalkeeper laid out ....can the defender get back in time...
Looks, lads, I have given you all a chance. I have been to the grocer and the butcher's (actually 2 butchers) and then the bakers (but not the candlestick makers) and then the Big shop at the Co-op. I return home expecting to see someone has bagged the Merc, but maybe you are all being shy.
This is, therefore, my official attempt at extending the fleet. I will not make repeated posts to do it. We will have to see if this is the 100.
Incidentally I heard on the radio as I returned home that there had been power cuts in the Press Box at London Road, so I hope the Live Blog is in order. I will switch over now to see....
Still a Boro win, though, despite the odd midfield.
O'Neill out injured. The cursed captaincy strikes again?
1. The 2-2 draw at P'bro wasn't good enough.
2. For those who haven't gone to the Live Boro Blog, you should get on there for the next game. Some banter. Talk about food, drink, and then the disappointment of the football.
3. To the "Bloated Goat" to calm down after all the excitement.....
That game was utter garbage!
Leading twice to a team rooted to the bottom of the table, but only taking a point. I'm afraid there is no excuse for that. We must get this midfield sorted out....and listen very carefully Mr Strachan, Julio Arca is not the answer.
I think AV's Christmas stocking is going to have a lot of hair products in it!
After London Road this afternoon, it appears that Gibson and Lamb have actually managed to achieve what Mike Ashley couldn't despite the appointment of Dennis Wise and the rest of his ensemble. That really takes some doing, stand up and take a bow Messr's Gibson and Lamb you have taken us from Eindhoven to the level of last years League 1 sides in only a few short years.
I was sat thinking after the Peterborough collapse (sorry match) about who we need to get rid off, starting at the top of course with the two aforementioned then after going through the management and coaching staff (including Stricken!) I realised it was easier to list who I would want to keep:
1) Wheats (because he does care and is one of our own)
2) GON (because he is our most consistent player)
3) Pogi (because he runs through walls, literally)
4) Jinky (our best player by far)
5) Dave Parnaby
6) Roary
Thats it 4 players, Dave Parnaby and Roary out of our entire structure, no wonder the club is in the state it is. That means the Ledge can return to Preston where he has a chance deservedly of getting into the play-offs.
Not that Sean isn't a decent player but he doesn't compliment Wheats and together they are like Mike and Bernie Winters (not greatly entertaining and made you feel uncomfortable and cringe at their act) whereas Wheats alongside Huth in August were the footballing equivalent in the Championship of Morecambe and Wise (best double act in decades and so comfortable together they were like a pair of old slippers).
Our lowest ever attendance at the Riverside by Christmas (accompanied by a league position to match) and demonstrations with chants of "Sack the Board".
Oh dear and there's not even a Scapegate (oops Scapegoat) in sight. "Et tu North Stand"?
AV, I hope you have a hair cut soon! Meaning we start winning...
Can we see a picture of you now? Any hope? I mean at QPR? UTB!
Forever post poaching Dormo. Fancy you posting when there is no one about.
Anyway, against my better judgement I was making the cross country journey whilst you were poaching, it was an even crosser country journey on the way back.
We should have that in a canter with so much possession and chances but we let it get away again. Lita has proved a livewire but he misses some chances. Kitson looked like a centre forward.
A few other thoughts.
When Johnson went onto the right wing after 8 minutes I started grinding my teeth, luckily he swapped back before I wore through the enamel. In general his end product was not at its best but it was a marvellous cross for Kitson's header.
Osbourne and Arca were too slow as a partnership tending to stop momentum. Without O'Neil I would have preferred Digard to partner Osbourne. There was a fair bit of aerial stuff in central midfield and Land Crabs are not renowned for jumping ability, the ball must have cleared Arca's jumps a dozen times.
The substitution of Hoyte for Yeates was futile. Hoyte added nothing apart from being in the wrong position and confusing McMahon.
John and I agreed, we seem no nearer to a settled midfield. Phil, Powls the younger, just muttered. I dont think he has forgiven his father for the Boro gene.
One consolation is that Vic will have a quiff by the time Xmas arrives.
"No, we'll see if I am right in January. Or, depending on financial restrictions, even next summer."
Well said AV! Why does every setback and success have to be so final?!
I think when all is said and done we will be pleased. The playoff spots are well in reach and quite frankly will be if our form remains average. We are a good run away from being right in the hunt, and this team as it is frankly ain't good enough and needs more work than many want to step back and admit.
And Grove Hill Wallah's stocking should have a Merc by calculations.
Forever Dormo will be devasted.
Halifaxp
I just read your November 25th post and it is brilliant.
Intelligent words and some good points. Don't agree with it all, but noone ever will pal ;-)
Time to call it a day, lads. We'll never, ever, return to respectability (let alone any modicum of success) whilst we continue to sail on the ship of fools ("Heh?! Keith!!" We are truly "The Damned").
Well, I listened on the radio and it was same old same old. Our meek squad of players and our poor coaches along with the farce that runs the club have sunk to this depth.
The midfield is and always was shameful, now the defence has got just as bad.
No chance of promotion this season.
Is Lita Alves in disguise? What glaring misses. Once again in front against bottom of the league. I say we are a very mediocre team. And why oh why. Bring Hoyte on, what that about?
AV
In light of your follicle dilemna I think we should have a poll to pick your new hairstyle so follow the link to http://www.menshairstyles.net/main.php
It would be a good barometer on how the fans think we will do. Those voting for a short hairstyle obviously think we are close to a victory - foamers. Those going for a more new wave style are medium term, like most fans, whilst a heavy metal / James May look see it as very much a long term struggle - bed wetters.
Over to you AV, may the locks be with you.
**AV writes: Alright I'll play... what haircut-as-reflection-of-attitude-to-Boro style should I go for? Maybe something eighties, Or receding slowly but surely.
There is definitely a chance for promotion. Our squad is better than average in this Division - that's for sure.
We just need to start playing well and especially scoring: Our midfield is good and make chances enough to win games. Wait a few weeks before saying GS2 is no good.
By the way Cardiff 1 - 2 Ipswich yesteday. I think it was the 3rd successive defeat for Cardiff now. So the top 6 places are there for the taking for us. Up the Boro!
Go for a combover AV, to hide that blank expanse in the middle
There is the famous story of Bill Shankly at the hairdressers. When he was asked if he wanted anything off the top he replied 'Everton'.
AV cousin it look will do. Will send you some shades from sunny SA.
On to the game live thread was great. Pity GON didnt play as i think he would have been the differance. Two goals was a change but two against not good enough against the bottom club. I think this blog should hang around for the two hundred as it is still the story of slow improvement.
We can give SG the Gomez look and guess who can be Festa.
Hmmm....two posts to comment on, decisions decisions.
A bit like deciding which of my Merc's to get out of the garage.