Promotion Hopes Running On Half Empty
(***Boro honour fallen heroes today***)
MEANWHILE, with a damaging defeat at Crystal Palace, Boro's stuttering promotion campaign is now running on half empty.
The shot-shy side squandered chances and were caught cold at the back on the break (again) , a serial self-inflicted twin design defect that has gradually blunted the bright start and ground down optimistic early hopes.
But more than that, it has crucially stacked the vital numbers against Boro as new boss Gordon Strachan starts his rebuilding on the hoof and under the cosh. Boro have now suffered six defeats - and that is too many at this stage for a team with promotion ambitions.
The second half Palace coup means that Boro have now taken their defeats tally to the half-way mark of the outside limit of what is possible for a team with genuine promotion pretentions and the two on the bounce under the new gaffer mean any feelgood factor from a dug-out change has dissolved quickly without a discernible immediate dividend.
Six defeats. That is half of the figure that any club can realistically afford if they are to make it into the play-offs, let alone grab one of the precious automatic promotion spots.
The 2-1 defeat at Bristol City - the first this term - was a sickening late lapse blip in the middle of a promising early run of five wins.
West Brom was a painful but instructive systematic dismantling by ruthless rivals as Boro chased the game after two unfortunate early set-backs.
But with Leicester, Watford, Plymouth and Palace the worries have mounted (and the old boss was axed). All those archetypal limited but organised Championship sides delivered single sucker punches in Groundhog Day games in which Boro had the edge for long spells and the chances to win but ultimately could not break down a determined defence and stick the ball in the net.
It is easy to sit and dissect those games in isolation and come to the conclusion that it is about fine margins, and to conclude that Boro are structurally sound barring a prolific poacher; what would we give for a Slaven, a Branca, a Yakubu, a Viduka; even a sporadic striker like Fuchs or Ricard would do.
And it is easy too to counsel calm and argue that Boro are creating chances and that all it takes is a slight tweaking for Leroy Lita and Marcus Bent to click up front, or the midfield to start chipping in, or a new hero to be grafted on to turn this chassis of a team into a viable vehicle capable of driving us back into the promotion race.
Boro are not far from being an outfit that could and should be among the contenders in what is in truth a poor Championship populated by limited but effective teams.
But those four frustrating 1-0 defeats in the last seven games have now tipped the numerical balance decisively against that. At least for this term.
The margin for error is now being eroded at an alarming rate.
Generally in recent years the teams that secured promotion did so having lost 12 or fewer games over the season.
Last season Wolves were champions having lost ten games while Birmingham went up in second having suffered just nine defeats. Burnley squeezed up through the play-offs having lost 12 while of their rivals in the end of season shoot-out, Sheffield United had lost 10, Reading 11 and Preston the relative rarities having limped into the lottery despite a hefty 14 reverses.
In 2007/08 West Brom went up having lost 11 games with simplistic Stoke in second with nine defeats. Hull won the play-offs despite having lost 13 while Bristol City had gone down 12 times, Palace 11 and Watford 12.
And in 2006/07 champions Sunderland and Birmingham had both lost a dozen games as did play-off winners Derby.
In the past three seasons then only one team in has gone up having lost more than 12 games - and Boro are at six defeats already with just a third of the season gone.
That means they can realistically only afford six more defeats in the 30 games that remain and given that they are so brittle at the back and so often lack the teeth to turn spells of pressure into an unassailable lead, to achieve such a record demands an immediate and fundamental change in performances and results.
Given those mathematical imperatives the breakdown of remaining fixtures suddenly looks ominous. So far Boro have won seven games. Six of those - Ipswich, Reading, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Derby and Sheffield Wednesday - were against teams below them in the table while the other was against Swansea who were down there at the time but who have just leapfrogged above them.
Of the teams above them they have played, Boro they have been thrashed by West Brom and been caught napping late on by both Leicester and Bristol City as well as losing at Forest after extra time in the Carling Cup. And all three of those have arguably improved markedly in form and confidence since Boro met them.
That is worrying, not least because Boro still have most of the teams above them still to play. In fact, those tough games now dominate the fixtures.
Of the 30 games remaining - of which remember they can only really afford to lose six - Boro must play leaders Newcastle twice, third placed Cardiff twice, fourth placed QPR twice, fifth placed Blackpool twice, in-form Forest in eighth twice plus travel to second placed West Brom and Leicester in sixth.
Strachan will have to work very hard indeed to make his team far harder to beat if they are to negotiate that particular programme without adding irretrievable mass to the 'lost' column. They will need to become tougher, more focussed and better organised at the back and sharper and more ruthless up front. Consistently.
The next half-a-dozen games will be decisive. Between now and Christmas Boro face a Forest side who are unbeaten away at the Riverside and go to struggling Peterborough then a resurgent QPR before crunch home games against Jason Euell's Blackpool and Cardiff and a derby sunday showdown away at Newcastle.
How we fare in that six game run will determine whether we go into the January transfer window with Gordon Strachan looking to fine-tune his improving side ready for the second leg of a quickfire promotion push... or start rebuilding completely for next year.
*****
A COMMERCIAL BREAK....
NATIONAL treasure and precious posh polymath Stephen Fry has now decided that trendy 'Twitter' is a bit silly after getting some 140 character long bites of banter - and indeed, if you use it to relate vacuous ephemera while stuck in a lift or ask for help in deciding which preserve to have on your breakfast toast it, that may well be the case.
But I am sticking with the trendy Blackberry generation social networking tool. After all, without it would I have been able to lean across the aisle and tell Kenwyn Jones, an incognito fellow passenger on the 1900 KX-Darlo on Saturday after the game on Saturday, that Craig Gordon had broken an arm?
Here's some of the stuff I have linked to on my Twitter in recent days:
A good Remembrance article in the Mirror about when international call ups meant something far more significant than football and when players really were heroes
And a counter-balance or two to an hysterical and slightly sinister bullying tabloid campaign to name and shame football clubs that refused to jump onto their populist poppy/shirt high horse.
The Lingo of Calcio... Italian tactical nuances explained.
Where's Whaddon Road again... there's a totally engrossing interactive lower league football geography quiz.
And a happy 140th birthday to the Gazette - a link to a brief history of Teesside's best loved institution (apart from the Bongo, the Boro and maybe the parmo) on our sister blog Remember When.
To have your browser pointed at similar stuff plus the odd quip and occasional exclusive snippet of breaking news you can get down with the kids and "follow" me on Twitter here.
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Anthony Vickers
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I think you are right. This season has already gone. It is not just about not losing but about winning and if we can't score goals we won't do that. especially against the teams we NEED to beat.
We need to hope Newcastle lose three more games than us now or beat them twice to close the gap and that won't happen.
We might still limp into the play-offs but we won't win them. Even if we did we would need to spend £50m just to make sure this team wouldn't get battered every week.
We should accept the old era is over and the GS2 needs to rip this sorry squad apart completely and start again from scratch.
We are too weak minded on the pitch to get promotion. Newcastle, West Bbrom and Cardiff will fight for the automatic spots.
The bite from the team has been sold off and another 1 nil defeat is par for the course of typical Boro. Southgate must be laughing teacakes!
You say "That means they can realistically only afford six more defeats in the 30 games"
That really isn't a target that should worry us. If we lose more than 1 out of every 5 games for the rest of the season it will have been an awful season.
**AV writes: Unless of course we win the other four.
I'm not sure what it's going to take to turn this season around but we no longer have the luxury of waiting for the January transfer window.
The obvious problem is that we don't have any strikers who look comfortable with the job of doing what strikers are supposed to do.
We must bring in another striker during this international break as neither Lita or Bent are even remotely prolific - Emnes is also not a £3m forward and Forlorn was a mistake even before he was injured.
It's not as if we are conceding lots of goals so if we solve our goal scoring problem then a five-match sequence of winning three, drawing one and losing one repeated over 30 games would give us a further 60 points and a promotion gaining total of 84.
But we must get in an in-form striker ASAP to put the chances away and relieve the pressure on the other strikers who are clearly low on confidence.
Failure to address this problem will see us out of touch come January and also probably see Johnson, O'Neil and possibly Wheater being cashed in before their values slump - especially if decent bids materialise in the transfer window.
AV: I agree entirely with your last paragraph in your main article. (Not that I disagreed with the earlier stuff!)
My own perspective on the remainder of the season, I believe, is based on evidence rather than on sentiment or any intrinsic glass half-any-which-way tendency.
The numerical facts are as you've described, and as I posted in the last thread.
What is daunting, however, is that Boro MUST WIN a minimum of 19 of the remaining (30) matches and even then, MUST DRAW another 10 to leap-frog WBA, on their form-to-date, to gain automatic promotion.
To gain a 6th place play-off finish Boro MUST WIN a minimum of 13 matches but even then would require to draw at least 16 of the remaining 17.
These numbers assume that the performances of 2nd and 6th places remain unchanged by season end and the target points totals to beat are 90 and 79, respectively.
This, of course, may change if either of the pace-setters blow up and some other club strikes an incredible extended purple patch - such as we all are hoping for from Boro! As they say “the past is not necessarily a reliable guide to the future!”
The play-off positions, though not easy, are of course more "do-able" - but then it becomes a "cup competition" and much more of a lottery.
As you say in that last paragraph, the next six matches will (probably) determine the terms of any re-structuring and the time-frame for doing so. We’ll be virtually at the half-way point and the die is effectively cast.
For what it’s worth, my money's going on the longer-term. The implication for that however, is that it's going to take EVEN MORE of Steve Gibson's money (or credit headroom) to put Boro back into the Premier League it - and I'm not sure he's either got it, or is/will be up for it, although the “Rockcliffe Park Effect”, whatever difference THAT makes, may begin to kick in. It’s time it was paying its way!
Irrespective of what Gibson's decided intent is however, I would like the club to come clean on it as soon as decisions on what the REALISTIC intentions are, so that supporters can share the targets of "New Project Boro". Then there's less likelihood of those who decide to support, feeling that they're being hoodwinked, which many of us have done over the last three years or so.
I think the days of talking up season ticket sales by "bigging-up" the ambitions beyond what is realistically achievable are gone. Gibson needs to be straight with the people who are loyal to the club.
If he then backs the club and favourable results start to flow, consistent with the declared and shared new ambition, then people will find the time and the money to attend. Some may even begin to drift back to the Riverside. But I suspect this won’t happen until some demonstrable success is in evidence.
In this case, we know which one is the chicken and which is the egg!
It is too soon to write GS2 after just two games. And before anyone says those two games show he is not better than Southgate, that's just not true. It just shows exactly how a poor a squad he has taken over.
Southgate had to go, we all agreed on that (even AV who had been the last loyalist knew time was up) and he had to go because he had completely failed to turn this squad into one that can compete for promotion. That's the bottom line.
GS2 hasn't been brought in to take over a good squad that just needs motivating. He has been brought in to COMPLETELY REBUILD. That's why he was talking last week about 'judge me after three and a half years'. Expect a massive clear-out.
Anyone who expected an instant upturn was naive and knows nothing about football. You can't have a 'new manager' effect if the squad is rubbish or you would sack the manager twice a season like Newcastle.
We are now looking at NEXT YEAR'S play-offs.
AV wrote:
“They will need to become tougher, more focussed and better organised at the back and sharper and more ruthless up front. Consistently.”
I would like to believe that's possible, but I really don’t. Automatic promotion is already a lost cause, and it is time to start wondering whether we can reach the playoffs. That will at least raise morale and set a marker for next season. It must now be the target, and I think it's still achievable.
What is standing in the way? Gareth’s squad was, and is, devoid of the necessary attributes, both in playing strength and mental strength, to perform throughout a season in the way you describe.
So far, Strachan hasn’t changed anything for the better. He must be given time before we judge whether he can. Unfortunately, as you point out, there isn’t time this season to improve the squad sufficiently to achieve automatic promotion. Or, most probably, any kind of promotion.
Not sacking Gareth last season, or in the summer, is turning out to be Gibson’s biggest mistake. He will be very lucky now to have Premiership income next season to offset his financial woes. Those who claim this is because he listened to the fans are the biggest fools. It is because he didn't listen soon enough.
And anyone who believes that this wouldn’t have happened if Gareth had remained is living in a dream world. Do a reality check and look at last season’s slide into Premier League oblivion. In theory, we had a stronger team, but they showed exactly the same failings as the current crew.
Maybe Strachan could persuade SAF to part with Macheda for a few months now that the Champions League is set for its winter break.
Ste Mac, I don't buy into any theory that promotion THIS season is still not the goal. Also Richard, even if we get promoted this year and then get relegated next season we'd still be much better off financially than if we didn't get promoted at all.
Gareth didn't go 'because he had completely failed to turn this squad into one that can compete for promotion' - this squad is more than capable of getting promoted. He went because the fans demanded it.
Let's not pretend that this squad is not good enough. The players are not performing to the levels that we should expect at the moment. Ultimately that's down to them, not the manager.
Werdermouth:
That depends on how much it cost us (net) to buy promotion!
And that's not something you want to do by alves! ;)
Relax, this league is weak. We're gonna hammer some team soon and then its off to the races. I'd rather be on form and getting better going into the play offs than limping in.
I think one of our problems is still the fact we are a big scalp and teams will put twice as much effort in to win against us. We have to change tactically to play them at their own game: keep it tight, make them do all the running then win with our superior ability in the last fifteen minutes and none of this long ball rubbish
To say I am disappointed in the way the season is going is an understatement.
As others have stated recently, it is difficult to find the positives, in the current fare on offer.
I said last week, and others have reiterated my sentiments by remarking their concern about the disappearance of Didier Digard and young Joe Bennett. Both of who were (in my opinion), probably the best two players on the pitch at Preston.
Boro are currently walking a very dodgy tightrope. They have the ability in the squad to improve and have a real go at getting up this season. They can also go the other way into League One mediocrity like Leeds and Norwich. With Boro there is never any middle ground, it is either all or nothing, and in this case I sincerely hope it is the former.
Nottingham Forest will be a stern test. They have already turned us over in the CC, a game in which I went to, and like most games this season should have been out of sight by half time.
So many games last season were classed as six pointers for the wrong reasons, Strachan needs to turn it around quickly so games like Forest at home become six pointers for the right reasons, as nothing less than three points will wear with the dissipating thousands....
I posted a couple of weeks ago that I did not think we were good enough to go up. The key point is the oft used expression that a team is only as good as it's strikers and ours are no good.
I believe that any neutral observer would say that on balance of play, chances and the general flow of the game we did not deserve to lose ANY of the four 1-0 reverses we have had recently but unless you can score this will be repeated.
However with three points for a win things can turn round quickly if you can put some wins together.The margins are quite fine. Newcastle are sitting pretty at present but in two of their last three games they've had lady luck on their side. (Doncaster 1-1 when Donny miss a penalty with 10 mins to go and then winning courtesy of a total fluke at Sheff Utd).
Maybe lady luck is going to pay us a visit and then we will see a resurgence in confidence and belief. We'll definitely have a better idea after the next six games.
This was sent on Sunday but disappeared into the same place as Bents 'shot', well wide of the target but at least it wasnt on national tv.
''That is the danger of relying on your away form; it is always likely that some away matches will get away from you. If we were still in the premiership come FA Cup third round and we were drawn at Palace, the pundits would fancy a shock and home win.
"The upshot of the match is that we are in 10th position on goal difference and gradually slipping down the table. 16 matches have passed and of those only 6 have been played against teams currently in the top half garnering 4 points (three from the game at Swansea early season)
"The next six are Forest H, Peterborough A. QPR A, Blackpool H, Cardiff H, Newcastle A. Five teams above us and the traditional banana skin strugglers in the Posh. That run of matches takes us to Christmas Day; I wonder what Santa will bring us?
"Would this have been different with Gate in charge? I doubt it because after 11 games we had two points from games against top half teams. Nothing has really changed yet at a playing level.
"Marcus Bent has come in and looks to a useful addition to the squad but is struggling to score goals. That is what he has done throughout his career and at this late stage is not going to morph into Torres. He is not match fit and may struggle to get on Brum’s bench even when fit
"Isaiah Osbourne is a young player learning his trade; he doesn’t make the bench at Villa so is unlikely to be next Fabregas. They are here because we are a Championship side who can offer them a game. I am not blaming the players because they are who they are.
"I stick by me pre and early season predictions, should make the play offs but automatic promotion is another matter.
"Was the timing of bringing in Strachan right? The words of John Harvey Smith come to mind when talking of change. If you change you may get it wrong, if you don’t change you have definitely got it wrong. Better to have changed from a decent league position than wait until you were struggling.''
Having pontificated for a day or so I cannot see an easy fix. The writing was on the wall before Gate was dismissed.
The signs have been there for a few seasons. We were liable to sucker punches with a far more experienced squad than this so why would it suddenly improve?
Once teams found that if they kept us out for an hour we would implode it did for our prem status. The coaches in this division are not stupid, the players may not be as skillful but they are capable of setting out in way to exploit our frailty.
I still think we can make the play offs but we will have to do better.
It is good to finish on a positive. At least we have harmonised our corners. We have all our players in the box for corners at both ends of the pitch.
If anyone expects Steve Gibson to be honest about plans for BORO (Richard) they are in for a big dissapointment.
I was one of Gibsons biggest supporters, until the sacking of Southgate. If we are to believe SG/AL and even Stachan, then shortly after midnight following the Derby WIN, GS was sacked and sometime on wednesday Strachan was approached, negotations began, plans laid out, assurances given, terms agreed for Strachan and his No2,contracts drawn up and signed before Friday morning,
If anyone believes that then they must believe in Santa ! At least Lamb came out with half the truth that they had been in talks for over three weeks, that is when Gibson lost his integrity.
I believe that Southgate will become a brilliant manager, and Boro fans will regret their loss in time, Strachan after two or three years in the Championship/League 1 will walk away and I dont think we will see the Prem 1 or Prem 2 (soon in the future) in my time. We will drop to gates of 10,000 - 12,000 and have derby matches against Hartlepool and Darlington.
Merry xmas all
All due respect to the Southgate-haters here.. His squad wasnt THAT bad. Thats a load of bs. Defensively we're among the strongest in the championship, The midfield is OK though it lacks backup. While the attack is rightly questionable, As it always were under GS1.
Given the lack of resources and pressure to sell all assets he did well. And this squad is more than competent of reaching first or, more realistic, second place.
It seems that people are quite quick to forget he was sacked one point from the top. With a squad that according to most fans were mid-table material. Does that mean you regard Southgate as a brilliant manager?
I predicted (look on Borobanter) that If we start losing away from home and cant find our home form we will be doomed and most likely going to be swapping places with LEEDS UTD.
The Players we could have sold In January we should have sold. Now we are seeing seven players out of contract next summer, Thats bad buisness, I still think these players think there are good enough where I think there are not.
Agnew and scott were at Hartlepool Utd and got sacked by Pools scoring first and eventually getting beat In games. Yes you can take the lead (deja vu) but one goal Isnt enough Just have a look at the stats when they managed Hartlepools You will see something similar WITH Boro last season and this season.Enough said.
UP THE BORO!
Werdermouh summed it up perfectly in his 1st post, and there's really not much to add. Don't get hysterical about our chances of automatic promotion, I still stick to my original predication of a play off place.
This stripped down squad was never good enough for a top two finish. But there will be blips for other teams around Boro as the winter bites. It's not all about Boro's form you know, serious though that is! It is entirely possible that we will only lose another six or seven and then it all depends on the teams around us.
GS2 clearly had a lot to do when he inherited this squad, and he still does. Why, even AV is getting depressed, and you don't have to read between the lines. You are right it is a poor league, we've all witnessed that, not least from our own team! But because it is such a poor league, we are not out of it yet. It's still early, and 30 games (of torture!) to go.
It's an interesting season to say the least, and it isn't over by a long way just yet fellow bloggers.
This mathematical stuff is vaguely interesting, but could be self-fulfillingly prophetic, couldn't it? If the maths proves irresistible, so do the matches.
It would be vaguely interesting to see how many people will continue to support the Boro when they are sure there will be no big blast at the end of it all: 10,000? 12,000? That was the norm during the middle-table second division Ayresome years. But finding this out would be only vaguely interesting.
We need to be really careful; being right in our gloomy prophesies should not necessarily be something to be proud of. Cassandra was right, but was she happy?
I, for one, still want and need to believe in some possibilities, and I do not feel as foolish in my belief as these stats tend to make me seem.
Jones has played well and is a really good shot-stopper, who showed at Palace he can start to command the area; he's big and strong and (if someone builds his confidence) can be a good goalie, bossing his back line. Coyne is decent back-up.
We have some good defenders with a variety of different skills: Taylor was good coming forward with the craft of Stewy to help him; Bennett looks classy, but raw; McMahon has a true Boro passion and never stops trying; Hoyte must have something because Wenger brought him on; Williams is full of potential; Wheater has been very powerful and loves this club; Ledge has rarely disappointed; Riggott is one of the best centre-backs in the country; Pogi may hang around and bites yer legs; Bates is versatile; Grounds is too;
Digard is quality, but a little injury-prone; O'Neil is quality and still here for now, and may stay if given the captaincy; Osbourne is OK, and here for now; Johnson is a good dribbler and here for now; Walker has shown great promise; Yeates is not as bad as some people have made out, and will not replace Johnson, but will do a job on the wing; Emnes is really a winger and may fill the Johnson gap better than many would expect (he's been played out of position in most for us).
So, we should remind ourselves of what I think is pretty factual, that we have a decent, youthful, potentially ambitious and teachable squad until ... the forward line! If GS2 is a decent manager, he ought to be able to get that lot to produce some solid work. The forward line needs some investment, I think, or Franks or Porritt to come on very strong.
One thing that came up on the coach back from Palace was the idea that our Academy lads who go out on loan or get transferred rarely fail to produce the goods - Grounds, Williams, Downing, Johnson, Walker, McMahon, Hines, Graham, Greening, Morrison, Cattermole etc, etc. - which implies that a good manager should be able to help these lads perform at the club which knows them best. That is what I would like to see GS2 try to achieve.
That is why I am not happy to see him bringing in loans like Osbourne, who is (in my view) a class down from Digard. Bent could be a good loan signing, if he makes Lita tick (but at Palace the two of them played too far away from each other and it looked like two separate strikers again, not a pairing).
We are not a rubbish club and the squad is not rubbish. All these faithless comments can only encourage GS2 to a wholesale dismantling of what is good and promising in what we have. I have watched all but a couple of matches this year and I have honestly not found myself envying many opposition players (maybe Maynard and Danny Graham made me think, but no-one else).
There are 90 points to play for. If this manager is any good, he should be able. with the players at his disposal, to stop the losses, and, eventually, to get the team winning.
People who talk in terms of completely rebuilding the squad from the bottom up may sound like hard-nosed realists, but may just be giving our opposition some really good players on the cheap and bringing in people who may or may not gel. A very, very dangerous strategy, and I, for one, have more faith in the players we've got than in the reputation of GS2 to get such wholesale changes right.
Promotion this year would probably be too soon at any rate. The prospect of enduring a season of spankings in the Premiership (see Sunderland under McCarthy and Derby more recently) doesn't do anything for me.
I think Strachan will already have in mind the players he will move on in order to fund the complete overhaul of the squad he seems to be plotting. Our younger players will benefit from another full-season in the Championship (Williams, Bennett and Wheater) and Johnson and O'Neil will presumably want to move on the summer irrespective of our final position in the table.
I agree with mythbuster: the decision to part company with Southgate was correct, it was just made 9 or 5 months too late depending on whether or not you think relegation was inevitable after the West Brom game in January.
I said at the beginning of the season, it's never too early to panic.
I likened the start of this season to the start of the relegation season in the premiership, and it is going exactly the same way.
We have no one apart from Johnson who seemingly knows how to score a goal. Yakubu was the last HALF decent striker we had, and I emphasise HALF, as he was so lazy.
All we've done since his departure is buy 3rd rate players, or over-hyped rubbish. A single goal is usually enough to take three points off us.
No action was taken last season to remedy our poor goalscoring record, and we went down. This season is turning into a repeat of last season, and unless someone wakes up and starts buying some quality strikers, this season will end the same as the last one, with us relegated to Division One.
Tell me the rumours about Adam Johnson going to Sunderland are not true. At least tie him down to a new contract to ensure that we get a reasonable figure for him at least. Cattermole is already there. at this rate we will become a feeder club to Mackems.
I agree AV, my excel charts show exactly the same. We are not going up this season. In fact we never were, according to the charts, as our table position was inflated by the walkovers we had early season.
From that you can deduce that Gibbo was right and GS1 really didn't have a clue as to how to get a young moderately talented cheap side to perform. Does GS2 know how to do that? Not bloody likely. So now we have the true agenda.
Teesside will get the side it can afford and the club will be in the league it can realistically and commercially compete in.
The glory days are gone though to be honest it was depressing watching the Boro week in week out losing on the Sat TV.
We can look forward to giant killing exploits instead - its not that bad
My first season with the Boro we knocked out Clyde Best and Booby Moore in round 3, York 4-0 in Round four with a cracker from our No4 blond defender whose name eludes me ( George Smith?) and who can forget Hicktons goal against Manu when he lobbed Alex Stepney to equalise and get a replay.
Next season we beat Man Utd at Ayresome park in the snow with Georgie best missing a sitter in the six yard box in front of the Holgate end and we earned a trip to Goodison park for the 4th round.
In amongst all that, we were, to quote the codgers in the North east stand " bloody crap" but it was magic being a giant killer.
When we went up and later in the PL we had aspirations above our ability, and now the dream is over.
Now I will become an old codger and when I return will probably sit in the OAP stand wherever it is and just moan.
It was good while it lasted.
AV: I think this one sentence from you main article sums up Boro's season to date: "a poor Championship populated by limited but effective teams".
Boro are quite simply not an effective team, and are failing miserably, after a bright-ish start, to adapt to a different way of playing in the Championship.
In contrast our mono-chrome neighbours seem to have got it just right.
They have kept just enough experience to get themselves into what I believe will prove to be a position from where they will (barring injuries and supsensions on a small-ish squad) walk clear of this league with some ease. More still, they have also found the right formula under Chris Huyton for getting results, and let's face it that's what counts.
Boro have gone with a very young and inexperienced squad that struggle when they come up against resolute defences, and hard working sides. Add to this the fact that at the moment they cannot score in a brothel.
It's far too early to lay any blame in GS2's door, but he certainly has a job on his hands to not only change the habit of conceding late and not scoring, he also has to change a three year old legacy and culture put in place by Southgate with no little help from Mr Gibson.
I wish him the best of luck, but I certainly am not expecting miracles.
At the beginning of the season to gain automatic promotion two points per game is needed: win at home, draw away. Last week boro needed 2.2 points per game... it's now 2.3 points from EVERY GAME FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON!! The difference does not look much, but in fact it's massive!!
On another theme it's amusing reading contributors' funny but mostly derogatory names for St James' Park, after all, Mr Gibson would never change the name of The Riverside for ugly money... would he? Short memories me thinks! 'Cellnet'... 'BT Cellnet'... what's all that about?... yes, MONEY!
The only reason The Riverside is not called by some other name is simply because no one will cough up the money! The Riverside naming rights are FOR SALE... just the same as St James'.
So, in response to the amusing names put forward for St James' Park... here's a few for the BT Cellnet, opps, The Cellnet, opps, The Riverside. How about 'The Century Radio Riverside Stadium' giving that 'Century' is now dead in the Tees, or 'The Teesside Airport Riverside Stadium'... opps that's dead too. So it's got to be 'The Bulkhaul Riverside Stadium' ... oh nah... that's nearly dead too!!
I agreed with "Ste Mac" and "Mythbuster".
The last two defeats highlight what a weak squad we have and how poor the backroom staff is. GS2 is going to have to have to be allowed to bring in new blood, not only on the field, but also in the coaching staff. They also show SG has made a major error in not acting sooner to bring in a more experienced manager.
Even the most ardent "doom & gloomer" would not have even considered that we would be this far off the pace and in tenth place at this stage of the season!!!
Frightening to think that we have already lost half of the number of games we can realistically lose and still gain promotion - we need one hell of a good run now to gain ground.
Unfortunately we also have that little matter of our traditional Xmas holiday / January dip still to come!!!
I went to our first away loss and i was there at Palace on saturday. What more can I say? I have a little giggle at everyone who thinks we will be promoted this season, or even next season.
Its hard to beleive that when I arrived in london in 2006, I was watching Boro in Europe. We wont be there again until we sell to a wealthy sheikh or American tycoon, I'm not being pessimistic but this is the way of the footballing world now. Gibson will never have the money to compete again,
Viduka, JFH, Yakubu, Ravanelli, Juninho, Emerson, Karembeu, Boksic.. Gibson threw money at the club and we didnt get remotely close to cementing our place inside the Prem top ten. If we want to even be an established prem club, Gibson will have to sell. Simple mathematics.
If we dont do it soon, we will fall behind the other championship teams who are getting financial input. This is truly the end of an era for some time. On the bright side... we might do a Leeds, who i can really see being back in the Prem before us. You read it here first!!!!!
Talk of promotion and the playoffs show how deluded some Boro fans still appear to be.
We should be looking at last season's parallel and looking over our shoulders at the teams below us.
We only have a 10 point cushion over the teams sitting at the bottom and looking at the next 6 fixtures have to be relieved that the game with Peterborough is away from home as we can't even avoid defeat at home to the likes of Plymouth.
I think at the end of that 6 games we will be actually talking about avoiding the drop because the results havent yet affected the confidence (except maybe at home) but how many more can we lose before the heads drop again entirely?
Ste Mac said: "It is too soon to write GS2 after just two games. We are now looking at NEXT YEAR'S play-offs."
I beg to differ. This is the worst Boro side since liquidation and is destined to spend years and years in the championship. Strachan - so good he was out of managerial work - has spent two weeks achieving precisely nothing whatsoever. For so called professionals it's an embarrassment.
This season Boro have by and large been utter rubbish and there's plenty more where that has come from.
On the striker issue, now that we've got a new boss, and seeing as no one can score, why don't we get Mido back in? He's be the best CF in this league. Or am I, like Bent and Lita, wide of the mark.?
Also Greggs have annonced record profits, and his abscence from these shores could threaten future profits of a great NE firm. Come in broadsword, all sins forgiven
I do not think automatic promotion is possible for this team, play-offs would be pushing it. The reason I say this is that the current players, some of which have been in and around the first team for three or so seasons seem incapable of putting a run together.
An unbeaten run would be good, a winning run even better. When was the last time we went ten games unbeaten? Thats the kind of form we need to get back in the race. My feeling is that we will crumble against the 'big' teams in the division. We still have no leader on the pitch and no consistent spine to the team.
What about trying to get Tuncay back on loan? I don't think he is too happy at Stoke. With Turkey not qualifying for the world cup finals, top flight football is no longer an issue for him.
AV
Couldn't agree more with what you said above.
If I could just add that it's adding insult to the injury of being dumped, unnecessarily and entirely avoidably, in this division to be drawing or losing games that Boro need to win in a Championship where standards, quality and entertainment are - to my eye - one step above park football.
I admit that I am going to most games now only out of 'duty', because I love Boro, not because I expect to see - or actually do see - anything worth the entrance fee.
The only thing that would make having to go to games in this league worthwhile would be watching a Boro side with the determination, organisation and qualities of the Jack Charlton side that got promoted from the old Div. 2.
That's something like what we were promised in the 'Blind Faith' prospectus. It's what was needed from day one to get promoted automatically and have a fighting chance of the basis of a side that could stay up.
And it's needed now even more than it was needed at the start of the season, given where Boro are - in all senses.
As you say, Boro must start showing this sort of determination, organisation and quality from the next game onwards, continue it through the half dozen games up to Xmas and then establish the improvement by what they do in the January window to hit the kind of marks in the second half of the season that are needed to get out of this second rate second division.
If they don't, then more of us will 'fall out of love' - and with this Boro as well as this MFC. And, sad to say, I may be one of them. That's saying something after fifty years of Boro fandom. Another season in this no-bargain basement is hard to countenance - and as for several seasons........
Where are 'Relate' when you really need them?
C'MON Boro - for goodness sake!
Having read through the comments a couple more thoughts spring to mind.
Gate may well become a good manager but the time had come for a change. It is pointless saying it should have been last January or in the summer because it didn't happen.
We have had a poor run of results, sometimes the luck has not been with us but GS2 is spot on when he says if you miss the chances we do then luck isn't an issue. It is bad football as is conceding daft goals.
There is no point harking back to Eindhoven and the strikers we have lost because we cant get them back.
I still think we are not getting the best out of what we have and I dont know if GS2 knows his best team yet. Until we get some stability we wont develop teamwork.
We could do with a couple of early goals to get us up and running again for the tricky run up to Xmas. I don't think we will be in a relegation scrap and we will finish around the play off places.
We just have to be better all over the pitch, that folks is the tricky bit.
What's the situation with Digard Vic?
He seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth since he put in a good performance against Preston. No mention of injuries in the Gazette. No mention in the pre-Palace Match Pack on the official site. No comment when he wasn't on the bench.
If it was about fitness he'd have been in today's reserve team, but as far as I know he wasn't. Usually when a player is injured there's at least a line to that effect.
Is it any wonder that most people I talk to seem to think he's been frozen out. Surely not?
**AV writes: He was supposed to play in the ressies last week then got a little knock in training so didn't, but we expected him back in the squad at Palace. You have got to wonder about his position if Strachan has brought Osbourne in, unless the intention is to sometimes play a five in midfield. He hasn't helped his cause by being pretty much permanently injured since he arrived.
I went to the match on Saturday with a relative who is a Palace season ticket holder.Therefore, sitting with Palace supporters (a friendly lot) all were agreed that Boro should have won quite easily, because of the excellent chances made. But of course and rightly, no sympathy was expressed.
As far as the missed chances, both Bent and O'Neil's efforts were appalling. However, Lita's decision to try and score from an all but impossible angle instead of passing to Boro players, particularly Johnson, who would surely have scored in front of an empty net, was unforgivable and in my opinion cost Boro the game.
Whoever the coach, even the best in the world (which Strachan certainly isn't) could have done nothing to rectify Boro's total failures in front of goal.
Having previously been a season ticket holder for 20 years, I would not have renewed this season even if I still lived in the locale. Not because of relegation so much, but mostly because of the disdain with which Steve Gibson and Keith Lamb hold supporters.
The decision to dismiss Gareth Southgate was of course Steve Gibson's to make and I can understand why he took that path, although I would certainly question his timing. It's the manner of it I find disgraceful, in particular the spurious statements from the club that (as I recall) suggested that Keith Lamb had bumped into GS11 in Coventry or somewhere. Are Boro supporters so naive and gullible to believe such statements? I think not.
To me the way it was done shows cowardice and deceit, and it's interesting that many in the press, even the more respected journo's have shown surprise and questioned Steve Gibson's otherwise previously perfect reputation.
I have said before that I think having GS11 in charge will at least be a laugh with his famous put downs and pithy comments. But can he really manage? I don't know, but he certainly can talk the talk. Lets see in May if he can actually walk the walk. He says, he should be judged at the end of his current contract; does that mean that promotion this season is no longer the only measuring stick?
At the match I was keen to see David Wheater play as he seems to have received some stick of late and to have gone backwards in his development. I was disappointed at his performance and perhaps the captaincy is a responsibility to far at present.
Also, there is a real lack of understanding between him and St Ledger. Surely by now they should be forming some professional relationship and understanding in their roles together. Some of the mix ups between the two were more akin to Sunday morning stuff. With regard to St Ledger, Im not particularly confident about his defensive qualities, but it's the first time I've seen him live.
On a positive note, I thought that generally Johnson and O'Neil were way above any other players on view (although Ambrose was easily to good for Hoyte). I also thought that Bent (despite the miss) led the line well, the best since a fit Viduka, but as has been detailed his goalscoring record isn't great.
All in all a disappointing game which Boro should have won comfortably on chances created.
Finally, is Digard injured and what happens if GS2 doesn't fancy St Ledger? A big plus for the travelling Boro supporters. Brilliant and praised by Palace fans to me.
**AV writes: I refer you to my previous answer on Digard. We asked St Ledger about whether his situation had changed and he assured us it hadn't. No one at Boro is willing to go on the record about the loan-turning-into-permanent arrangement because it may be suggested in some quarters that it is actually already a full-time move in disguise as part of a cynical attempt to get around the rigid transfer window. And that wouldn't do.
We will know where we are going to be after playing Cardiff City & Newcastle United back to back, just hope the customarily winter wobbles don't kick in! Maybe they already have and this is just another prime example of global warming!!
Ian Gill said:
"It is pointless saying it should have been last January or in the summer because it didn't happen."
It's not pointless to say that it should have happened, unless you mean that it's patently obvious to everyone. But it's clearly pointless to say that it didn't happen, because that is obvious to everyone.
Boro are 66/1 to get relegated at Coral Jiffy et al. Put your money where your mouths are, you'll be rich in May.
"stockport wiggy said:
...Come in broadsword...".
Broadsword calling Danny Boy.
Broadsword calling Danny Boy.
Come in Danny Boy.
Where Eagles Dare was released on 4th December 1968. On 7th December 1968, Middlesbrough were second in the old Second Division (today's Championship) with the likes of Cardiff, Backpool, Preston North End and Bristol City lagging behind them.
Sadly, we can't say the same today.
Broadsword calling Danny Boy.
Broadsword calling Danny Boy.
Come in Danny Boy.
There is still plenty of time left in the season for automatic promotion. If confidence can grow with results we could go most of the season undefeated.
At the same time, there is still time for the team/club to plummet and get relegated.
Everything is still possible. Anyone know the odds on Ipswich getting promoted via the play offs?
On the subject of managerial sackings, if Darren Ferguson can get the sack after 2 promotions in 2 seasons then anything is possible. Southgate for POSH?
For those saying KL and SG sacked GS1 too late, I feel you are missing the bigger picture. You could easily argue it happened at a perfectly planned time to coincide with MFC's financial fortunes, as others have leavily hinted at.
If MFC needed to slash costs quickly, as they did when GS1 was hired, but also needed a change of management due to last seasons performance, however (I believe) they may not have wanted to bring a new manager in and have to have the argument about selling players with him, or have the new man blamed for poor decision making in the sale of those players and alienate the fans.
You could argue the current incumbent GS1 was forced to do these things and once the dirty work was completed, MFC immediately set to work on finding a replacement, judging by the time frame of the interview of GS2 well before GS1 went, and assuming these things are not set up overnight.
If that was the case then it appears as if GS was given not one but two poison chalices, with all the close season bluster just the usual smoke and mirrors hyperbole, with the chances of GS1 being in a job around now regardless of results being very slim. If you look at it that way the Scapegoat nickname just seems more and more apt.
Whether this was case and whether it was the right thing to do either ethically or for MFC seems to depend entirely on your viewpoint as to if Strachan is a good move for the Boro, but I do not believe that he would have been allowed to hold on to any of the players that went in the summer even if he was here then.
(AV - I'd guess you'd like to edit this as appropriate unless you're looking to add to those journalistic war wounds / badges of honour* you have hanging on the wall) *delete as appropriate
**AV writes: Nah, couple of tweaks, I think we'll get away with it.
Mythbuster:
I wonder if "Mythbuster" is the right online name for you? Perhaps you should consider some alternative IDs. "Ambiguity Annihilator" or "The Clarifier"? Maybe "Penickity Pedant" or "Explicit Exponent"?
However, your observation on Ian Gill's remark is not, itself, without flaw. Strange as it may sound, some things aren't patently obvious to everyone. Particularly matters of opinion. And, of course, it depends on what the refered "it" is!
However, reflecting Boro's last two performances, these posts are both a bit pointless! (But only if you ignore the entertainment(?) factor, I suppose).
(Your post to Ian was cleverly amusing. Or should that be amusingly clever? Over to you Mythbuster!)
One point of slippage I'd draw to Ian's attention is his reference in his post, at 6:18PM on 9 November 2009, to John Harvey "Smith". I think you meant to refer to HIS alter ego, which is a surname with which not only you, Ian, have some difficulty accepting as Boro's "safe pair of hands"! Boro could use the Troubleshooter's services now, actually!
The trouble with that is however, the great man, Sir John Harvey JONES, passed away just a year ago, spookily, just about on the same date as ICI, the company of which he was an ex-Chairman, ceased to exist, on being taken over by Akzo Nobel.
But, as the famous film actor Sir Michael Stick said, "Not many people know that!"
German national goalkeeper Robert Enke committed suicide tonight by throwing himself in front of a train.
News like that puts other things into perspective. There are more important things in life than which division your team is currently playing in.
He was a real nice bloke. I can't imagine why he'd do a thing like that.
R.I.P.
Mythbuster - Brilliant last post and logic!!
John Powls at 3.59pm - I think we should have this blog sponsored by The Samaritans, not Relate.
Incidentally, it always occurs to me that when an organisation changes its name, then needs to add a by-line explaining what it really is (Relate, formerly The Marriage Guidance Council; Relate, Relationship Counselling etc) then it has all been a possibly expensive mistake. I mean, what exactly is Accenture? Or a number of other image changes that must have cost a fortune.
And the number of supporters who have regularly attended games (but maybe gone to the pub to watch away games) who are now teling me how much they hate going to the Boro....it must be a worry for the management. GS2 has a real job on his hands here.
Economically this sub-region is suffering more than most. It would be surprising if things don't get worse before they get better. People will have less money to spend. Unless they like the product, they will find other, more pressing, things to spend their money on. So the club has less money.
We have this year and next year (with a reduced chance of success bearing in mind Leeds and Charlton will probably come up and three Premier clubs with parachute payments will come down) realistically to seek promotion. If we don't achieve that, we will have no prospect of promotion for the foreseeable future, and an indefinite stay in the lower reaches will mean a significantly lower crowd next year, and the year after that etc. So begins a spiral of even less money for the club to spend on players etc.
I hope the players we will be looking at will be used to the real world. Wondering if they can afford a three bedroomed semi in Redcar, maybe if they are good and secure a place in the first team they might look at Wheatlands Park or a larger detached house in Saltburn or Nunthorpe. They could do alright for themselves without necessarily finding themselves driving a Merc, an Aston Martin or (God forbid) a baby Bentley as soon as they hit the first team.
We won't be employing many multi-millionnaires, but maybe a few more who bear a passing resemblance to the people who support the club. Might not be a totally bad idea.
**AV writes: If we don't go up there will be a new age of austerity that will see the players car sharing to Hurworth and getting the 263 on matchdays.
Glad to see system is back up and running.
So it is time for a reality check. For those without the rose coloured glasses, the reality check was there a lot earlier in the season. "The BORO team that would get automatic promotion" was not good enough then.
We were only beating lower teams, we could not beat nor score a goal against the better teams. So the early points amassed were what was expected. Then the reality came the team was not good enough. Result after result went against us.
That was not "bad luck" it was because the players were not good enough. They thought they were better than they were. I for one never thought we were good enough to go straight back up, the players do not have the fight in them.
When Southgate brought Jones back in that said it all for me, and the continuous changing of the team. Now Strachan comes in and drops the players who were playing well. I will reserve my judgement on him, because he has not inherited "A GOOD SQUAD" he has inherited a "VERY MEDIOCRE SQUAD"
I will hope and pray for better things to come.
Please, folks...
"Result after result went against us". "The team werent good enough (earlier in the season)". "Very mediocre squad".
Fact: One point from the top.
Can anyone please explain how Southgate managed to take this "mediocre" and "not good enough" team to the top of the table?
AV, since you're the man here, can you please sort these things out for us..
Richard
Remiss of me about John Harvey Jones as my late father actually worked with him. I stand admonished.
Mythbuster
My comment about pointless is an example of everytime I open my mouth some fool speaks - the hat fits perfectly and it looks very fetching!
The intention was to focus attention on the here and now. The actions and inactions of the past are filed away for future reference.
My current concern is actually getting some points on the board. Somehow we have to get some results in this tricky run up to Christmas to get us back in the play off positions.
Do that and then we can worry about the top two. GS2 has his work cut out.
I wonder if a certain party in Yorkshire is sat drinking his morning coffee following the school run with a whimsical little smile playing on his lips? Hopefully thinking it is a relief to be out of it for a while.
**AV writes: Won't he be writing his application for the Peterborough job?
In response to Anlov.
A letter is written like a contract document, please dont use only the words that you want to. Please read all of what I have written.
The points amassed were against lower level teams that is why we had the points. How many points or goals scored did Southgate get against the better teams. I rest my case.
To Dave Connor:
Fair enough, was not my intention at all to lash out at your post.
My point was not against you, but against the hordes of fans both here and elsewhere critisizing the squad and Southgate, forgetting that he lead us to the top of the league. And for us just beating lower teams, I dont think we can judge GS1 for challenges he never got the chance to meet (except WBrom, an obvious disaster).
Points average pr game GS1: 1.77
Average incl last 3 games: 1.5
Goals scored GS1: 1.54
Average incl last 3 games: 1.38
Yes, these remarks are, if not bitter, an attempt to explain the fact that we made a disastrous error in sacking the immensely talented GS1. Lets keep faith in Strachan, but also give the sacked man the credit he never got, which he clearly deserves.
Talk to anyone outside the hardcore hateful of the Riverside and this become all too obvious. Lots of people had great respect for Southgates achievement of getting us to the top table position based on the economical facts of the club.
So yes, lets all get behind GS2, but stop moaning about the quality of the squad and the stop blaming GS1 for everything. Please..
I was speaking to the Admiral about Boro’s plight last night. Usually he commiserates but ends with ‘son, stop wasting your time and money on those wasters’
However last night he re-found the Boro supporter in him. Fed up of the gloom despair and the resigned attitude of failure he rallied:
‘Do not let us speak of darker days: let us speak rather of sterner days. These are not dark days; these are great days - the greatest days our club has ever lived; and we must all thank Gibbo that we have been allowed, each of us according to our stations, to play a part in making these days memorable in the history of our club.’
Victory on the 21st
I think it's worth pointing out that Boro are not completely hopeless across the pitch - it's just that scoring bit where we're most lacking and we need a decent striker on loan - Though knowing Boro we're probably going to announce we've just signed Dean Ashton for the rest of the season.
I also agree that Digard could be the best midfielder at the club but unless he's able to play the majority of the season then it's pretty pointless in planning a team with him in it.
But before we get too bogged down in the game of 'promotion point permutations' there's still two-thirds of the season to go and we're only three points away from the play-offs - but nevertheless the downward trend needs to be reversed ASAP.
Finally, now that we're at a loose end during the international break: If Southgate is contemplating the conundrum of whether to apply for a new job in order to put everthing behind him, then he may be interested to know which managerless football club is an anagram of 'The Boro Purge' - where's Jeff Stelling when you need him?
Werdermouth:
Very clever! But where IS Purgetboroeh?
Somewhere near Limbo - about half-way to Hell?
If you are ever in a position where you need Jeff Stelling.....then it may already be too late.
What dreadful reporting by Eric Paylor the exclusive from the Scottish Sun "Former Boro player Derek Whyte backs Strachan" I read the the same quotes from Derek Whyte the day or the day after Strachan was confirmed as boss. Chip shop paper reporting.
**AV writes: The piece carries neither a byline nor any claim to be an exclusive. It is a PA feature and been in a queue for a while. That is why it is well back in the paper, away from the topical Boro stuff we have generated and is on a page with other stories that have been held over for some time now.
I recall Jeff Stelling ranting on our behalf.
I think it's time to start thinking positively and if you look at the stats it's not all doom and gloom.
a]We have won 7 games, every single one of them by a two goal margin.
b]That figure of seven should have been 9 but for last second lapses in concentration at Coventry and Preston where we were clearly the better side.
c]Take out the West Brom game and every reverse has been by the odd goal and certainly in the games against Leicester ,Watford, Palace and Plymouth we were mugged in games that should have been won[or not lost] but for missed chances.
That tells me that at the level we are playing at we are not useless as suggested by some posters.We obviously need a goalscorer but the rest of the squad is capable of a play off position.Onwards and upwards [I hope]
Anlov:
You’re obviously an incurable Gareth groupie, and I don’t suppose anything will change that. Actually, I find your “blind faith” in Gareth strangely touching, since I don’t think he really deserves it.
And I’m not a “Southgate hater”, I liked him as a player. I just don’t think he’s a very good manager, and I think he should have recognised that himself.
Maybe he’ll be lucky and get another chance. If he proves me wrong, you can crow all you like. But you have to wait for that to happen, if it ever does. Right now, there’s really no evidence for what you say.
And you mustn’t abuse statistics to try to support your case.
You wrote: Points average pr game GS1: 1.77
The true figures: Gareth gained 143 points from 127 league games as manager. That’s an average of 1.13 points per game. In the Premier League: Gareth gained 120 points from 114 games as manager, an average of 1.05 points per game.
I presume your statistic is based on 23 points from 13 games in the Championship. Without the “previous”, that might look impressive. So do you think Gibson shouldn’t have been allowed to consider Gareth’s dubious record in passing sentence?
Let's just leave history to judge whether Gareth can make it in football management.
Mythbuster wrote: "you mustn't abuse statistics to try to support your case."
Isn't that the main reason statistics exists? Or are you trying to rewrite the old adage as "There's truth, absolute truth and statistics"?
Mythbuster:
Youre right, of course. I am a big fan of Southgate, and will concede to that. But Im also the first to admit to mistakes he made, tactical, manhandling and transfer-policy (buying poor forwards, except Tuncay).
Despite certain errors, which comes natural because of little experience, he did a very good job in the championship with a young and cheap squad. I dont think that can be disputed. A fair point being that people outside the club actually praised his results before he got sacked. No one else but the hardcore negatives could fail to see the value of the one-point-from-the-top performance.
But the lack of experience was not his fault, and he was quite obviously gaining knowledge fast. We were just about to witness his progress into a better and more solid manager. The last results showed that.
And as Ive said before, given the sell out policy of the club even a Wenger or a Ferguson would have had big problems in surviving the Premier League with this team.
In short my objective is to point out that the massive critisism he got (and still gets) is based on pure myths. That being said, its quite ok to dislike him or not to favour him. But thats another story, based on feelings not facts.
Anlov - I'm with you, I think GS was a decent manager and one day in my opinion he'll come back to haunt us, maybe at Posh in a couple of weeks!!?
It's easy to point the finger of blame at a manager and say 'my clubs decline is all your fault' which is what a lot of posters on here have done. Fans for some reason need a focal point for focusing their anger and disapointment.
Clearly the reasons for Boro's decline are several, a lack of financial resources, the loss of experienced players and maybe in the wider context the impact of the recession on Steve Gibson's core business.
I also think that a significant additional factor was the appointment of an inexperienced manager who not only had to learn on the hoof had to over see cost reductions, change from being a players mate to a players boss and maintain premiership status. No wonder he failed, he'll succeed somewhere though.
Got to agree with Anlov.
Didn't we finish 12th & 13th in Southgate's first two seasons (i.e. roughly where we always finished) before the money ran out?
We're a strikeforce short of a team now, and might even have been overachieving by being a point off the top when GS1 was sacked.
I wish him well.
Off topic but this is from the BBC gossip column:
''Referee Peter Walton will not officiate in the next round of Premier League games after awarding Liverpool the controversial penalty which gave them a draw with Birmingham on Monday.''
No doubt Ngog will not be available for selection as Benitses makes a dignified stand against divers in the game. I am not having a go at the Spanish waiter, it just happens it was one of his players who was gravitationally challenged.
We are not immune, I liked the comment that Johnno had his short studs in as he collapsed on yet another occasion in the box. It looks as though the FA may be about to act and about time too.
Interesting that Ronaldoveragains antics in his early days at ManU resulted in him being taken to one side by Neville, Scholes and Giggs.
I have no problem in situations where the keeper or defender makes a stupid challenge the attacker doesnt get out of the way like JFH against Roma.
I do dislike it when players stick their foot out and trip themselves over - Pires was a master at that trick. I also cant stand the Gerrard trick of running into the players and then throwing himself to the floor. To be honest he is very poor at it, he should study video footage of that well known ex man City striker Lee Wun Pen.
Oh well, back to work.
Ah, AV, you've taken me back. Memories of the 263, the 271, 2 and 3, the 281... All United buses. No Transit in Redcar (it was as though their buses came to the town boundary then, if going to Saltburn like the old TMS buses did, they would skirt around the edge before disappearing to their destination.
Middlesbrough had its Corporation buses (subsequently Transit) in addition to TMS and United. Our United stood alone!
If Transit was financially assisted by Teesside and then Cleveland Councils, why didn't good old Redcar get a rates (or Poll Tax) reduction? No taxation without transportation. Could catch on as a slogan.
Southgate's gone - we might as well debate John Neals' stats during his time as Boro manager, as they are both in the past. I liked GS1 too, but we have a current manager in Strachan. Let's debate the future!
By the way, I agree that we should have arranged a friendly. Would we be allowed to do that in an international week AV? You know all these silly rules...
Forever
I remember the United buses running from the Coronation into Stockton, were they the 272 and 273? Then there was the O that ran from the town centre by the railway through Thornaby into Stockton.
Stockton was a foreign land in those days, Gibbo apparently still thinks it is.
Then there was the A from Acklam and B from Brookfield that we used to go to the match.
In Southgate's 13 games we averaged 1.77 points. Which was so bad that it earned him the sack.
If Strachan can repeat that "bad" form for the next 30 games it will give us 77 points. That will definitely get us in the play offs. Anybody who says that isn't posible is daft.
Quote from the BBC
"Middlesbrough's on-loan midfielder Isaiah Osbourne has revealed the club's players are puzzled at their inability to finish teams off this season."
Answer: Your new team mates just aint good enough sunshine!
Andy R said:
"Didn't we finish 12th & 13th in Southgate's first two seasons (i.e. roughly where we always finished) before the money ran out?"
Oh dear. Gareth worship seems to be the new religion. Perhaps the club shop will start selling pieces of his holy tie.
Personally, I'm not too interested in Southgate's managerial future, if there is one. I don't particularly wish him well because of the damage he was allowed to inflict on our club. But neither do I wish him any harm. He's incompetent, not evil.
Southgate's history as far as the Boro is concerned. His acolytes will just have to get over it. Maybe they could replace morning prayers with a study of his actual managerial record, rather than regaling us with readings from the Gospel according to Saint Gareth (as told to the Mail on Sunday).
Southgate averaged 40.0 points per season over three seasons. McClaren averaged 48.4 points per season over five seasons. And I doubt many would claim that McClaren is one of the world's greatest managers.
Southgate spent £54.4M in his first three seasons. McClaren spent £54.6M in five seasons. Even taking sales into account, Southgate's balance over those three seasons looks better than McClaren's only because he sold Yakubu, who McClaren bought.
Southgate did achieve 46 and 42 points in his first two seasons, as he carefully dismantled McClaren's "over the hill" side and built his own dream team. We know how that ended.
Now we have a "proper manager". Most, if not all, seem to hope that he will succeed. We do know that, if he fails, it won't be for the obvious reason that he has no qualifications or experience.
So let's forget the sainted Gareth. We've had better players who haven't cut it in management, Willie Maddren and Bobby Murdoch, to name two. Southgate's not unique.
Mythbuster at 11.35pm - that was a douche of cold water thrown into the face. Reality sometimes brings one up short. Good post.
Sorry AV - I used the word 'exclusive' as that is the word used in the fourth paragraph "In an 'exclusive' interview in The Scottish Sun, Whyte said: “Boro needed an experienced manager and they have got that in Gordon."
The piece suggests to me that these are recent and 'exclusive' quotes taken from another paper, when it is actually old 'exclusive' quotes taken from another paper. How long does the Gazette hold onto storys/quotes before using them - international breaks?
Please don't get me wrong AV I am an avid reader of your column and you often have a sensible and honest approach when reporting on the Boro, often put things into perspective, and it's great to have a platform to have your and our voices heard. I just believe Erics Paylors article was old news and poor reporting.
**AV writes: I stress again, there was no byline on it. It wasn't an Eric Paylor story. It was a piece sent out by PA, says in the text that the source was from another paper and makes no claim whatsoever to be a Gazette exclusive. In fact it clearly says otherwise so there is no subterfuge there.
And while you may have seen it elsewhere (so have I and I linked to it from the blog when it first came out in Scotland) many of our readers do not have the internet and much of our in-paper content is based on that fact. It may be of interest to them, especially as that two weeks on the Southgate/Strachan debate rumbles on and not everyone has yet even started to form an opinion of the new man. While not news, it was sjudged to still have some value.
That it was not our own content explains why it hasn't made the cut earlier and has been sat on the shelf for a week or so. We have limited space on the pages and a lot of content (not all football!), so not everything can get used the next day. Some things, especially 'featurey' things have to wait. Some never see the light of day.
Response to Anlov
Peace is upon us. We are allowed our comments.
I hope for the best at all times for my BORO from Afar
Kev B:
Southgate has only recently gone and the effects of his time and tenure as manager are still being felt. There are still underlying issues concerning that time and which still affect and are an intrinsic part of how the club is run s it's still quite appropriate that matters coming to light or developing during that time should be discussed here.
With all due respect to John Neal, his time truly is historical, but as with your post, it's perfectly OK for such subjects to arise here too.
As I mentioned the other week, I think Boro play better at home when the away team bring a good following. It helps generate a better atmosphere, remember Curbishley’s comments about the FA Cup quarter final a few years ago.
But I don’t know weather to be pleased or not to see our next visitors will probably fill the away end. Are they falling into the trap and waking the slumbering giant. Or are the cocky gets so sure of three points they are bringing the whole family.
It’s starting to get to me now. The shakes, interrupted sleep, panicky moments in Tesco’s. I keep seeing Marlon Harewood trickle a last minute equaliser past Marlon Beresford, John Hendrie slalom his way from the half way line and slam a 25 yarder against the post, Ian Woan diving to win yet another soft penalty for Stuart Pearce to score against us, Nigel Clough falling over himself but still able to score, unmarked from two yards out, Andy Dibble reaching into his net for the fourth time, trudging into school the Monday after to be faced with constant derision and mocking.
Come on Boro please win next week, please!
Victory on the 21st
I dont distrust MFC but, living in Derby, to get a feel for the mood and what is going on I rely on the Gazette website for information.
But it is only a small cross section of the fans who actually post on this blog, Come on Boro has its regular articles but again it is only a small number who contribute.
I find some of the others lack a little substance.
With no match this week, no paper Gazette, little info elsewhere in the media and no local fans to talk to it feels lke a vacuum.
So, AV, what are the views of people like yourself, Eric and Phil? Are the contributors to this blog representative of the fans at large? Is there a schism between factions, is there a postcode battle between GS1 and GS2 away from this little group of Boro fans?
**AV writes: I think the contributors on here are fairly representative in having a few loud evangelicals at the polar opposites and most of the rest waiting to see which way to jump, hoping it will be a good new regime but having the initial optimism blunted a bit by the start.
Some former pro an anti factions are circling and eyeing each other up warily and looking to retrospectively justify their previous position on the basis of two results but it is too early to take a definitive line just yet. It was the same when Steve McClaren started with four brusing defeats in a row and there was a loud sanctimonious "Ah! See!" from detractors across Teesside.
Most hacks don't take any position early on, we just get on with it. We don't have a relationship with th enew boy yet so it is hard to read any nuances or get an inside track. We are just as much feeling our way as you lot.
Is Boro's best hope of getting into the Premier League dependent on the result of today's discussions on expanding the PL into two divisions?
Whilst it sounds an interesting idea I don't really undertstand what it would actually achieve unless there is both a net increase in money paid and a decision by the current PL clubs to agree to a more even distribution of that money.
Besides we know how poor the football is in the Championship so why would TV companies want to pay extra to show lots of these games to a uninterested viewing public?
Originally they were talking about the possibility of removing relegation from PL2 and thus making it a franchise of around 40 clubs - which may include Celtic and Rangers - but it seems for the moment that is no longer acceptable.
I think there is room for a rethink on structure but I think it needs to be on the lines of creating more meaningful games - perhaps starting with qualifying groups for the PL and then perhaps two-thirds through the season splitting the PL into a top and bottom group.
The problem at the moment is that unless you're in the elite of the top 4 or fighting to avoid relegation there is very little to play for.
**AV writes: The only way to have more meaningful games is to end the structural imbalance created by money. The game is rigged in favour of the big boys. Two decades of uncontrolled pouring of cash into the coffers of the already rich and ever more greedy elite has eroded the concept of a fair and competitive league.
AV - is there any possibility of the Gazette finding out why Folan is still at the club and why we are paying or contributing to his wages?
According to my calculations his loan has about 5 weeks to run.He has never been fit to play and there appears to be no sign of him. What on earth is he still doing here?
**AV writes: The short answer is we don't know, We have asked several times and have yet to have the situation clarified, although Southgate stressed there was no deal already done for January, so that seems to rule out a St Ledger scenario.
When GS2 was asked about last week it he took umbrage and shot the question down, saying it was "disrespectful" to suggest shipping out "a body" just because they were injured and said he hadn't assessed Folan yet. He didn't seem in any hurry to make a decision on it either to be fair.
Mythbuster
Interesting post, but it doesn't really address my point.
Making reference to average points tallies is flawed beacuse it doesn't take the strength of your oppostion into account and also beacuse where you finish in the league has got to be more important than your points total. Would Liverpool rather have 70pts and finish 5th, or 65pts and finish 4th?
It's an undeniable fact that we finished 12th & 13th in Southgate's first two seasons, which is roughly where we always used to finish before him in (I think 9 or 10 of our Premiership seasons saw us finish between 10th and 14th).
I think it also has to be taken into account that several previously comparable Premiership clubs were taken over and heavily invested in during Southgate's three Premier League years (Villa, Sunderland, West Ham, Portsmouth & Man City - twice), which pushed us further down the football food chain.
This isn't Southgate worship, it's just an appreciation of the bigger picture.
But life goes on.
Mythbuster:
Well, this is not busting myths, rather creating new ones:
"Southgate spent £54.4M in his first three seasons. McClaren spent £54.6M in five seasons."
This is almost correct. But your next claim is not:
"Even taking sales into account, Southgate's balance over those three seasons looks better than McClaren's only because he sold Yakubu, who McClaren bought."
This is far, far, far from the truth.
Taking sales into account it looks like this:
McClaren: £45m
Southgate: - £3,5m
McClaren sold players for £5,6m in five years.
Southgate sold for £58.25m in three.
I can post the list of facts if dont believe this.
But far more interesting is the list of big earners in/out.
McClaren had few restrictions, and brought at least 16 top earners into the club. Southgate had to get rid of approximately the same amount. (He also eventually had to get rid of the ones he bought himself.)
Well, this is surely not a McClaren vs. Southgate contest, but we should respect the facts.
In the final analysis, what we need to do is:
(1) to get the players fit,
(2) to get them playing to the best of their ability,
(3) to play them in the formation(s) best for the team, so the sum of the parts is better than the individual totals,
(4) to employ tactics that reduce the ability of other teams to hurt us whilst improving OUR chance of hurting them (accepting these will have to change from team to team, and that there is flexibility to meet changing circumstances within games),
(5) if we are to have a chance of promotion we must keep our better players,
(6) if there is any money in the kitty, to spend it wisely to replace players who cannot positively contribute and to improve the squad overall,
(7) to instil confidence in the squad and a positive approach.
I'm not sure whether that is simple or not. But then I am not paid tens of thousands of pounds a WEEK to manage the club. Over to you GS2, his coaching staff and even GS.
Anlov wrote:
McClaren: £45m
Southgate: - £3,5m
There's no convincing the fundamentalists, but then I couldn't expect to. Faith isn't based on reason. Sorry if I interrupted the recitation of the liturgy.
I've posted full data on this website previously, so I won't repeat it. Perhaps you'd care to take a look, if it won't spoil the illusion.
My figures (as stated) refer to the end of last season, when Southgate could have resigned. He wouldn't, so he should have been sacked. Inexplicably, he wasn't.
Your figures presumably include £29M of receipts last summer. That was after Southgate's inspirational leadership had taken his team of lemmings over the cliff of relegation.
Last summer's receipts are not within his first three seasons, during which you claim he was unfairly starved of the investment necessary to keep us in the Premier League.
Take the £29M out, and you'll see that it was not really lack of investment that brought relegation, it was Southgate's misuse of the investment. It seems Southgate's greatest managerial feat has been to convince people that his failure was really not his fault.
Most of Southgate's profitable sales were for ex-Academy players or players bought by McClaren. Of the players he brought in, he made a profit on only two, Tuncay and Young. In last summer's sale of the century, he made a loss on Huth and a substantial loss on Alves. And Mido was essentially written off the books.
Also, the £29M includes £7M that the club reportedly received for Alves. Does anyone believe that figure? My guess is that a large part of it is just the saving in wages for the remainder of his contract. That's not usually considered to be a transfer fee.
Southgate's gone. He wasn't badly treated, whatever he says. He himself described Gibson as a "ruthless businessman". But, when Gibson behaved like a ruthless businessman, Gareth cried foul and went bleating to the press.
That really is my last word on the miserable subject of Southgate's (mis)management. It won't convince the faithful, but there you go.
I've tried about 8 times to publish a long post which, amongst other topics of discussion, offers an alternative view of the Alves sale fee that everyone had been led and allowed to believe was about £7M.
There is a public statement from Al Sadd in Qatar which states that EUR12M was transferred to MFC immediately when Alves signed for them. Given that the Chairman of Al Saad is The Crown Prince of Qatar, the source ought to be kosher. (Oops! maybe not quite the right term!, However, you get my drift! No offense meant - just a wee Western joke!)
Checking the historical interbank rates for 11 September and thereabouts, to the second decimal place, the GBP:EUR rate was about 0.87 yielding £10.4M as a sale transfer fee for Alves!
Just read that Darrius Vassel has been kicked out of his hotel 'cos his Turkish team are skint and haven't paid the bill. Wages are being paid late too. I think he would do a job in this division. Worth a cheeky 3 month loan bid methinks??
Mythbuster
You forgot to factor in the £30m it cost us for relegation which neatly offsets receipts from his firesale.
The captain of the Titanic slashed the wage bill. He and Gate have something in common, both were in charge when their ships went down.
Mythbuster
We should also remember the part played in our naval catastrophy by the owners of the good ship Boro employing as master someone whose only experience was captaining a pedalo in the Algarve, getting rid of all the experienced sea dogs and replacing them with callow youths out of naval college.
Despite that the passengers on deck kept shouting 'look out for the iceberg'. Sadly the crew didnt have the experience or skills necessary and the ship continued on its collision course with the owner doing a Nelson.
Some of the passengers ignored the shouted warnings, even when the ice for the gin and tonics came through the windows they didnt believe the cries.
Anybody else having problems posting on here recently? I've submitted several posts,several times, only to have them not appear. I don't think AV would have found them inadmissible, so can only assume the ether-monster's scoffed them.
**AV writes: Nothing has been reported to me but I will ask if there is something amiss.
Mythbuster -
why do you have a need to convince those that have a different opinion to you? You could simply respect anothers opinion and cut out the cheap jibes, it would strengthen your arguement if you did.
My opinion is that there are a whole host of reasons why a manager succeeds or fails, not just what is spent on who.
I'm sorry that people are tired of the Southgate debate. I can understand why (although I think it's a shame as it's still the most engaging discussion surrounding the club). I'll try to make this my final say, if only to get it off my chest as it makes me feel better!
I think Mythbuster's transfer figures are spot on and there's no doubt to me that Southgate's record in the transfer market is awful. I can only think of Woodgate, Luke Young and possibly Tuncay as genuine transfer successes during Southgate's tenure.
My point was that the money ran out after his second season. Was that not the case? I thought that he'd had the same resources as his predecessors for the first two years, and done a comparable job. We hadn't progressed in any way, but we hadn't really gone backwards either, our final league positions would suggest.
Things only really went horribly wrong in his third season. I could well be wrong, but I would guess that our wage bill was significantly reduced from the end of Southgate's second season to the beginning of his third, as was his transfer kitty.
Of course Southgate played his part in our relegation but his two previous seasons suggested to me that, given equal resources, he could do an ok job. The hope being that he would improve as a manager with experience I suppose.
I don't see Southgate's tenure as a three year demise. I didn't see us going backwards month after month. I saw us achieving pretty much what we always achieved, lower mid-table obscurity. Then the wage bill was slashed, then the transfer kitty was cut, then we got relegated.
I'll try not to mention it again though.
Mythbuster:
I didnt include the sale of Alves. If we do the sum of Southgates transfers is
- £10,5m (Yes, thats a minus)
And McClarens is still £45m (Plus)
This is not a fruitful quarrel, but the facts are there. I'm not claiming that he was 'unfairly' treated by the club in this. It was just the economical reality in which he had to operate.
He is being treated unfairly by the fans, like you, who wont admit that he actually did a decent job in the PL.
And more important: he did an excellent job in the Championship.
Nigel
Two Teessiders being stubborn and refusing to budge? Just like the rest of us.
It seems some things are emerging on the Southgate tenure,and that goes with the comments made by the CEO when hiring Strachan (" Hes a manager who is a coach"). The fact is Southgate wasnt on the training pitch a lot which to me adds up when I would often felt he was out of touch with what was going on on the field of play, hence often seeking advice on the sideline. Does that at least clear some of the fog?
Nigel wrote:
"Mythbuster - why do you have a need to convince those that have a different opinion to you?"
I don't feel any such need, and I know I can't convince you. I said so, if you had read what I wrote before replying.
But I do think that baseless assertions shouldn't go unchallenged. Otherwise people might just think they're true.
My comparison to religion is that religious beliefs are based on faith, not fact. That seems a fair summary of the position of Anlov and others, including perhaps yourself.
And, if you think these are jibes, they are nowhere near as cheap as the schoolboy name calling that originated from some of Southgate's more disreputable fans on this site.
You didn't rush to your computer to condemn that, did you?
On the subject of Southgate himself, my lips are now sealed, as I also said in my post, if you had read it.
Ian -
Your analogy of the Titanic and Boro is interesting. Of course it wasn't the Titanic's Captain who was responsible for the ship sinking. If the owner and shipbuilder said to him this ship is unsinkable why would he disagree? By the same token if GS1 was the Captain there is a strong case for arguing that the reasons for the sinking of Boro lie elsewhere not with the Captain.
Ian - Its a pity Boro's defence isnt as stubborn!
Mythbuster - In my opinion name calling is pointless wherever it originates.
Southgate-debate:
Lets keep to the facts. Remarks about religious beliefs arent all too fruitful, is it? Being a fan of Southgates methods isnt the same as being a fan of the man. Ive not forgot his mistakes, which - tactically speaking - sometimes came in plenty..
As Mythbuster was the one to post the transfer money spent by our managers, its only fair that we keep to the actual numbers. But, as Andy R points out, the wage cut is far more cruicial if we want to analyze the road to relegation.
To Andy R:
Excellent point about the interest of the debate! Why shouldnt a fair debate on our manager for the last three years be relevant?
To be hounest, this debate is one of the most refreshing in a long time, because were moving on from the constant complaining and nagging. Now it seems were doing some actual analyzis. Next to the next match nothing is more Boro-interesting than good old arguments.
So, I return to my original intent: Lets stop blaming Southgate for our position in the Championship. Simply because he was leading us firmly to promotion. He cant be blamed for what happened after his sacking. And the squad is more than good enough. Theres a reason for why the rest of the world have made us favourites for promotion. That reason wasnt Southgate, it was...the squad.
Nigel
I thought I had included the heirarchy in my second post.
In fact that was the main reason for the second naval reference to show that the master of the good ship Boro didnt have the skills and experience to do the job and what is more all the old seadogs had left the ship prior to the fateful voyage.
And that is down to the owners of said vessel.
At the end of last season I stated that the manager gets the blame but that the other culprits in the piece shouldnt be allowed to slink away scot-free.
And before the Caledonian element get their ginger wigs all of a tizzy it doesnt refer to the alleged frugality of the Pictish nation.
No Boro game this week but it will be interesting to see how St Ledger performs against the French attack - hopefully it'll be as good as a £4m defender.
By-the-way is it only me who finds it mildly amusing that the Irish are taking on the French at 'croak' park - surely tabloid headline writers heaven.
Mythbluster;
'name calling originated from some of Southgates more disreputable fans'.
You really have convinced yourself havent you? It was the bigger boys picking on you first!! Come off it; we're all big lads here; lets have a little objectivity. 'Hoss tods' have been flung from all directions! Positions are entrenched; we all have our opinions and these are unlikely to be altered by further 'facts'. You 'know' Gareth was poor, Anlov 'knows' he wasn't. Isn't freedom of speech wonderful!
Speculative cross to the far post......
**AV writes: And it swerved in to the top corner! Incredible.
Nigel said:
"If the owner and shipbuilder said to him this ship is unsinkable why would he disagree?"
The captain and crew sailed the ship into an iceberg and you blame the owners?
Even if the captain believed the ship to be unsinkable, did he really need to test the claim?
By the way, the owners and shipbuilders both disputed that they had declared the Titanic to be unsinkable. It's probably a myth.
Unlike Ian Gill, I won't draw comparisons with current myths, still being retold on this blog.
Looks, boys, I have been to the Fetid Ferret, I have taken the time to eat a steak as good as any to be had for double the price, and I come back still with the possiblility of the Big 100. Too good to miss, but I wasn't hanging around the six yard box. Honest! I waited ages (last post at 1.16 pm when I was working hard).
Cup of tea to come. And no doubt when we get our tame journo back on line we will find we have got to 150 with a massive input from Australia. No justice, I say....
**AV writes: If you had stuck to the light bite menu instead of going for the ful Mido you may have been in the right place at the right time. Alas...
Honestly, it was meant as a cross, The obligatory yellow card will be contested.
Das ist typical! 4 days 4 hours und 29 minuten I wait! Zen I nod off fur funf minuten und miss ze verdamnt Merc! Goddamnt Grove Hill wallah. No Klass - grossen punt into Untypical Boro box und as so offen ze case - late goal! Ach Schittenfaart!!
**AV writes: Dr Werther? Well, its original..
After seeing the players Southgate spent the money on in his first two seasons, it's hardly surprising that he wasn't allowed to was too much more money in his third season.
He bought third rate players and paid over the odds for them. That's not good management, and proved he did not have an eye for talent. Those players were 'his team' and that team got us relegated through lack of talent and lack of effort.
The merc is just like the lottery, no matter how many times I enter I dont win.
My hopes appear to be lost at sea, holed below the waterline by an iceberg. In Grove Hill of all places!
I know it's free weekend and there is little to talk about - but I'm surprised some boro fans still have the energy to try and rescue Gareths reputation.
The financials are a distraction. Irrespective of the financial situation you have decisions to make. There are many examples of Gareths frighteningly bad judgement - here are a few.
1. Defensive midfield: sell Boatang and Cattermole and replace with Digard who he was too frightened toplay for 6 months.
2. Move Cattermole on because of his 'suspect character' and sign Mido and King both paragons of virtue.
3. Bates in midfield ! after selling Cattermole & Morrison
4. Hoyte in front of McMahon !
5. Goalkeepers
No matter what the financial situation these are fatal footballing errors. Gareth rather than complaining about his treatment should thanking Steve Gibson and the fans of Middlesbrough FC for the experiences, opportunities and wages that the club has presented him with.
It's baffling to 'hear' the resentment of his supporters. He'll be lucky to get another management job.
I prefer losing under Gordon Strachan to drawing under Gareth Southgate - there is more life, energy and hope with Strachan in place.
Mind you how long is it going to take him to understand that McMahon is the best full-back in the club. He has skill, physical and mental courage and leads by example.
Come on Gordon for christ sake he's exactly your sort of player !!!
So, Pally thinks that Folan has 'got a bit of pedigree'. As what?
Certainly not a goalscorer - unless the bit of that pedigree he's got is the bit that the actual goalscorers threw away.
Certainly not on being so valuable to a team that he's first on the team sheet, given the number of games played in a career long on seasons, short on appearances.
Maybe he was praising with faint damns or perhaps he had the first thought in his head that I had in mind for a link to 'pedigree'.
Hope for a good, confidence building performance for Ledge this evening - something to relieve the ennui and frustration of a Boro free fortnight before the season shaping 'six game slam' starts against Forest.
G'day Poms!
I see you eventually managed your century with Seikh assistance after only 4 days 4 hours and 29 minutes! That's about your usual strike rate, ain't it?
Typical Poms though - waiting until the hours of Oz darkness to gain advantage!
Ah, what the heck!- back to the sheep. C'mere you gorgeous Sheila!
Someone say Werthers?
Gotta go mate! Just got a call to say that Sydney Sydney's got 'is digeridoo stuck in a sheep again!
Or was it, Up the Burra?
Anlov wrote:
"Theres a reason for why the rest of the world have made us favourites for promotion."
Not true, unfortunately. Odds vary between bookies, but mainly range from 5-2 to 3-1. The vast majority make Boro fourth favourites behind Newcastle, West Brom and Cardiff. Some also place us behind QPR.
There are only three promotion places available. Odds of 3-1 suggest that we would reach the playoffs with an equal chance.
Personally, I think fair odds right now are a bit worse than 3-1, but not too much. Promotion is possible, but unlikely.
No amount of "keeping the faith" from the fans will change the odds. But improving and organising the squad may. That's Strachan's task, and it isn't an easy one.
Richard said:
"There is a public statement from Al Sadd in Qatar which states that EUR12M was transferred to MFC immediately when Alves signed for them."
Where can this statement be found? The fee was reported as £7M, including by Keith Lamb.
Even if the EUR12M is true, there was a lot of money still owing on Alves, and all of it in Euros. The true cost of the transfer from Heerenveen, at current exchange rates, is probably more like £17M. So even £10.4M still represents a big loss.
I'd also like to know how much of whatever was received was handed straight to Alves and his agent.
If the club really did clear even £7M on the deal, I think anyone who has ever criticised Keith Lamb should hang their head in shame.
Incidentally, I see that Al Sadd are also playing Afonso as a non-scoring forward.
102 - nearer than our strikers have been getting for some time. Still a sickener, all the same.
And by the way, Mido is still eating.....
Here you go Mr Buster:
http://www.alvesofficial.com/en/latest_news.asp?AjrDcmntId=7247
Last paragraph.
It seems to me that Boro fans have spent the last few weeks playing "Runaround".
The old loyalist/ra-ra/pro-Gateists who had backed the boss ex-officio and spent so much time defending his (frankly average) performance based on the collective responsibility and financial limitations have reinvented themselves as the "from day one" cynics about the new manager.
While the former chicken runner/ realists/ anti-Gate group now seem so glad to have got rid of their old Nemisis they are ready to support the new boss no matter what average displays his team have turned in - and even though he seems to have some similar tactical errors ('square-pegging', bringing in non-scoring strikers, inability to get the defence organised and focussed).
Soon the former critics turned new pro-boss ra-ras will be saying GS2 has done well given the lack of finances and the former ra-ras turned chicken runners will be slating him saying he has gone backwards from when he took over.
If only we could all just accept that Boro are a middling club with an average team and who have just enjoyed a golden age that they are now harshly judged against. Then we may be a more united and reasonable crowd and that may just relieve some of the pressure on the team and the new boss.
Rather than arguing over who did what with what pile of cash let's all accept that the money has run out and that we are now back where we probably should expect to be in terms of resources and expectations.
Once we accept where we are maybe then we can start to move forward.
I like mythbuster. I like anyone who is passionate enough about Boro to put in the time and effort to dig out three years of facts and figures to prove a point. I am always impressed with that commitment.
I think he is wrong mind. Southgate did OK in his first two seasons, not great but OK, keeping us up despite losing his best players (in his first season people forget that he lost not only Yakubu but HIMSELF) and I think we went down last season not because Gate was incompetant but because Alves/Tuncay/Downing were as they did not score all those sitters.
Sometimes I think people who use statistics are trying to hard to prove their point and because of that their mind is closed to anything anyonme else says or the most obviouus unscientific answers.
Time for bed, chaps.
Richard:
http://www.alvesofficial.com/en/latest_news.asp?AjrDcmntId=7247
is on Alves' own website. It says, amusingly, "Middlesbrough received 12 million Euros, which was transferred right away to their account."
I think I still trust Lamb's figure a little more. But thanks for pointing me to this page. It contains many gems, including the following amusing quote from Afonso:
"When you score goals here, the financial limit is the sky." Unlike the Boro then, where the financial limit is the sky and you don't have to score goals.
It also informs us that
"The Prince of Qatar is worth an estimated 1 trillion US$, so it is not a poor club, Alves has joined." Also unlike the Boro.
I wonder if Gibson has the Prince of Qatar's phone number?
Interesting that BBC are reporting an article saying Johnno has been told he cant leave until the summer (sourced from NOTW) despite the interest from Sunderland, Chelsea et al.
Lets wait and see what happens in our run up to Xmas. That may well define what our approach will be in January.
And can we please focus on the rest of the season
Well, as there is little else to talk about, I'll just round off the Titanic analogy.
I would assume the Captain didn't intentionally sail into the iceberg and as a result of the collision he died so no lack of commitment on his part. The truth is, it like all accidents it was a result of the cumulative effect of random events, mistaken assumptions and errors. Much the same as Boro's relegation.
In danger of boring some people I'll continue the debate about our relegation manager. I think Neil M said it quite correct, the first two seasons he did ok. No one is defending the relegation, no one enjoyed falling down. Lets all agree on that.
But there is a reproducing 'blind eye' to this debate, which is obvious. The 'one point from the top' fact has been mentioned, but no Southgate-hater wants to touch it, or admit it.
Lets reason: If the squad is terrible (Southgates fault) then it should be a great achievement to stay at the top of the table, shouldnt it?
So, to those who keep on calling the team mediocre and bad, how is it that the manager you also call mediocre managed to stay on the top. That's a puzzle.
And Mythbuster: I know youre trying your best to bend the stats and numbers to your favour, but Boro were AMONG the favourites for promotion. Please let us not argue about something everybody knows. And once again, we were favourites because of the squad, not the manager or the money.
Which proves that the football world in general views us as a promotion-squad.
I'd like to be acknowledged as the exception to Mr.Average's rule book as I supported GS1 and am backing GS2 to be a success.
I see we are being linked with Kitson from Stoke, that really would be an excellent signing, but surely a bit unlikely if we've just signed Bent.
Foul day down here yesterday, so I got cabined up and did a bit of couch potato scouting.
Caught the Huddersfield game to have a look at Smithies, the young England goalie that we're supposed to be interested in.
Difficult to tell because they were playing Wycombe and Lee Clark's lively and well organised side slaughtered the bottom side 6-0. Smithies was only called on to make two saves - one routine and one sharp save from close range - both of which he did very well.
He had a number of corners and crosses to deal with - Wycombe's only tactic being route one - and he held those efficiently. He organises and bosses his defence with an authority that belies his relative youth.
But most impressive was his ball distribution. Uniformly excellent kicking out of his hands, off the ground or throwing out.
His throws out, with the speed and accuracy of a forty yard pass by a class midfielder and right into the stride of a sprinting winger, set up breaks for two of the Huddersfield goals.
He is, not surprisingly, being watched by Prem clubs too but he's certainly worth watching.
Difficult also to judge Celtic's midfielder, Barry Robson, in an execrable performance by the Jocks, in going down 3-0 to Wales.
He came on as a second half sub and made a few decent tackles, runs and perceptive and accurate forward passes into forwards' feet of the sort that Boro can't manage.
But he was still part of a rag tag tartan midfield that got over-run by what was essentially the Taffy U21s midfield after Ramsay went off.
Ledge did OK against France's mega-stars but - like Eng-er-lund against Brazil - as soon as the big names woke themselves up and upped the pace and the pressure, the game was up.
He couldn't do much about the shot that deflected off him but he could have stepped up rather than back when the ball came in. He made another couple of errors but that's no shame against that class of opposition and got impressive distance on his clearing headers and made some decent passes out of defence into his midfield.
All in all, a good learning experience stepping up a level. Let's hope that the return leg in Paris isn't a rout and that he comes back fit and with confidence intact and, hopefully, enhanced by the experience.
God I hate international breaks...who cares? Having said that, great to see NZ qualify...white is the new black! It will be nice to get back to the real thing next week.
I'm feeling pretty happy with the Boro at the moment. AV reminded me above that Steve McLaren started with 4 straight losses...I'd forgotten that.
I was a Southgate supporter, but one who was getting frustrated. When people called for his head I was opposed to it, partly because I wasn't convinced about the available options. It used to amuse when people called for Southgate to be replaced by Mowbray. Here we were, towards the bottom of the league and in danger of relegation, and a large number of people appeared to want to replace our manager with the only one in the league who was actually doing worse than Southgate!!
But once Strachan's name was mentioned I could actually see that as being a good move, and I'm glad that we pushed it through, even if it was a bit messy and probably not fair on Gareth in the context of this season.
I can see Strachan being a really good manager for us, and getting us promoted again... although possibly not this year. I'm prepared to put up with a bumpy start.
I think the argument over the 'success' of Southgate's tenure should depend on what his remit was. We could probably all agree that part of that remit was to downsize the wage bill whilst retaining our PL status - which we now know wasn't entirely successfully executed.
I think another remit was to build a team with up-and-coming players that would have a higher resale value than they were acquired for. Though sadly most of Souhgate's gambles did not pay off - whether they were ultimately his choices alone is debatable.
Though what was most likely not in the remit was creating a team without characters who could drive the team when the going got tough - it was his dislike of strong-minded opinionated players that stripped the team of experience, which was probably a by-product of his own inexperience and the need to achieve his own authority over the team.
In the end the players that GS had assembled together just weren't up to the task. That's why despite our initial hope to the contary there will be no quick fix under Strachan.
GS2 will perhaps reorganise the players on the pitch to greater effect - but it would be unrealistic to expect him to be able to achieve the right mix of players and get them to gel within a short period of time. However, getting hold of a proven goal scorer would definitely speed up the process and thankfully mistakes will often go unpunished in the Championship.
OK, Southgate may have had less resources than other recent Boro managers but he still had a fair amount to play with - he unfortunately just didn't make the best use of them.
AV, can you end this international break already. Every one seems longer the the previous...
AV, have you met GS2 already outside a general press conference? I think we need to know a bit more about the lad.
I think - and certainly hope - Boro will play only better in the future than currently. We are due a run like we had at the start of the season - also some home wins ordered.
My guess - Boro are 3rd in the table by Boxing day. Up the Boro!
Hate these international weekends off. The football is totally boring.
If Kitson is on the radar good, hope he is coming good regular goal scorer in this division. Digard needs to come back for the Forest game. Still no news on the Forlorn AV?
● ● ● ▬ (think the start of Beethoven’s 5th, Der Der Der Dung!)
V for Victory.
So in the time honoured tradition I will begin the big weeks build up with a haiku poem
Lost in the Wilderness
Together we can
Chop down the forest
Victory on the 21st
Sky seem more certain on a Kitson loaner to Boro than others.
If it's right, I think that's good news. He did well for Reading in The Championship in their record breaking promotion season and then in their first season in The Prem - including against Boro, sadly!
Then he got a dose of 'the big heads' and lost his way somewhat. But he can lead a line well, hold the ball up effectively, use his height and strength to advantage and he can get goals with his feet and head.
I rate him more highly than Bent and certainly than Forlorn.