Opinions, Accountability And Shouting From The Cyber Soapbox
GARETH Southgate should get his tin hat on quickly because after the beginning of what will be three days of exclusive head-to-head interviews with Uncle Eric in the Gazette (here's part two) he can expect a lot of incoming high-explosive.
Given the bi-polar nature of public opinion on the Boro 'street' any utterance is merely the prelude to the same old arguments being chased angrily down the same old cul de sacs and the same irate people become increasingly frustrated because their own favoured crescendo to the debate is not on the agenda.
For some Southgate soberly assessing where last season went horribly wrong - the hasty exit of Luke Young, the departures of Cattermole and Boeteng without new faces coming in to replace them, Alves failing to ignite, the slow motion slide towards relegation and the effect of key players wanting away in January - is a good thing. Recognition and acknowledging mistakes is a key step in preventing them being repeated and doing it in public helps show that the club are willing to take responsibility for relegation.
But for others - many others - the interview will be seen as a provocation, a brass-necked public picking at barely healed scabs and a premature attempt to play the popular politicians' card of 'drawing a line under it.' For them because heads have not rolled - an assistant in the BBC and a masseuse or two hardly constitute a full blooded Night of the Long Knives - the architects of the downfall have escaped responsibility.
Last week there was much talk of opinions without accountability and for the harshest critics such interviews are objects lessons in just that. The conclusion will be drawn that if Southgate is putting his hand up to the mistakes that led to relegation (and he bravely moves away from the collective mantra that was the soundtrack to the summer to take personal culpability on many issues) then he should carry the can.
Southgate was very open and never ducked a question. The answers may not be what people want to hear - and let's be honest, some people want a full scale public rigourous Maoist self criticism session combined with the medieval self-flagelation of a wretched sinner, preferably with the sound of a gallows being knocked up in the background - but that is always the case: beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
In covering all the bases and admitting mistakes - Cattermole, Young, Alves - the gaffer is simply pointing out a selection of sticks to be used to beat him with. Knowing that yet going ahead with the interview (two hours in the Hurworth canteen) shows real steel and willingness to front up and take responsibility... which brings us back to the notion of "opinions without accountability."
In his weekly Gazette growl today an affronted Bernie Slaven tackled head-on some of the issues pointed to by Southgate in last week's rage at the machine. The gaffer had pointed to the rumblings from radio phone-ins and inescapable cyber soap box of internet message boards as contributing directly to the negativity in the ground and the booing that piled pressure on a young team that, after all, very much in the shake-up.
Bernie was naturally fighting his own corner - his job on the Three Legends is to facilitate just the kind of populist hue and cry that Southgate has suggested helps if not create, then certainly perpetuate the white noise of dissent - and made a string of good points in a sterling "we're no living in Russia" 'free speech' defence of his role.
"When I hear Gareth Southgate having a pop at the fans in the national press and talking about supporters who boo the players and who criticise them on phone-ins and internet message boards as being "opinions without accountability" I take offence at that. I take offence because I work for the biggest phone-in show in the region and that means whether he meant to or not he is having a pop at me, my colleagues and my callers.
"But I take offence speaking as a Boro fan too because when you are talking about "accountability" then what fans want to know is who is taking accountability for relegation, for being the lowest scorers in Britain and for a string of players like Alves who cost a fortune but who were disasters?
"Fans don't boo for fun. They aren't being unreasonable after one bad game. The booing is because year on year the team has got worse, results at home have been terrible, we've slipped back from Eindhoven to the Championship and performances have been rank bad along the way. Fans have every right to an opinion on that! For me anyone in football who points the finger at the supporters is trying to hide from their own responsibility. Fans don't lose games, they don't pick the team or make the substitutions.
It is hard to disagree with any of that. And to be fair I don't think Southgate would disagree with the rights of fans to express an opinion. What he did say though was expressing it had consequences, in this case possibly demotivating a young, recently reassembled team that were trying hard and are overall in a good position.
And Bernie himself admitted that the booing was a double edged sword.
" I know that as a player if you are booed as you come off after a game where you have really tried hard but it hasn't quite gone right that you do resent it and you do talk in the dressing room. You do! Some like me get fired up and think "stuff you" and go and score in the next game to prove a point but others let it get to them and heads go down of they can stop busting a gut.
Perhaps the most pertinent point the Glaswegian fence climber made was about how the upsurge in populist opinion - radio and TV phone-ins, e-mails being read out live, internet forums and, yes, blogs too - was partly down to the way clubs have gradually tried to take control of the free flow of information.
Clubs have launched their own magazines, TV stations and websites as potential revenue streams and see themselves increasingly as rivals to the traditional media, while collectively they become far more strident in protecting their product and copyright. At the same time players have become media savvy and know they too are a product and that they should control their own image rights where possible. As a result much that is in the media has a sanitised "official" stamp on it.
So maybe it is no surprise that passionate fans have tried to reassert their cultural control of the game's soul by expressing forthright opinions on every platform possible - especially when they see their own role denigrated, sidelined or insulted. As Bernie said:
"It really gets my goat when football clubs - all football clubs, not just Boro - try to control people's opinions. And they do want to control opinions. They can control what is written in the programme, when and where you talk to players, who is allowed to broadcast from the ground. They can try to manipulate what is in the press or on TV.
"But they can't control the fans' opinions and every time they even try it is a slap in the face for the people who care most. If there is one sure way to rile fans it is to tell them they are wrong to express an opinion. Our switchboard nearly went into melt down when Steve McClaren said Boro fans needed to be educated and when Keith Lamb said the club didn't care about season ticket holders and preferred match by match fans.
Now Gareth is telling the fans not to boo the players!"
And Bernie also points out that people are far more informed about the game than ever before. That is undoubtedly true. When I was a kid foreign players never entered my consciousness until the few weeks of the World Cup forced them in via TV and Panini sticker books, and even then you knew so little of their capabilities. Now my boy, 10, has a mental list of continental superstars, knows what positions they play, what their relatives strengths are and their inside leg measurement all through playing endless hour of Football Manager, FIFA and ProEvo.
The internet, wall to wall TV coverage from the G14 Brand Fest of the Champions League down to the Conference, YouTube, endless acres of newsprint all make the game as comprehensively covered as an any area of human endeavour in history. Fans still have the same basic spectrum of emotions and perspectives - but now they have far more information to back them up when it comes to justifying them.... and far more outlets should they be inclined to evangelise. As Bernie said:
"Look, I know there are blokes out there who can't even spell 'football' and taking stick off people like that really hurts. But there are a lot of fans who have watched the game for years and are very knowledgeable. There is football so much on TV, on the internet and computer games. Fans are more informed than ever.
"And yes, there are more outlets now for their opinions, the Legends is one, the internet is another... but that's healthy. For me it actually takes pressure off the players because it helps fans get their frustrations out in a good way. In my day fans worked nine to five all week and stored up their frustrations and really let rip at their team on Saturday."
Where I do disagree is his insistence that every opinion is equal, that all should be given the same air-time and all carry the same weight. In theory maybe. But it is a pseudo-democratic argument that helps to reduce the overall level of debate. Look at the comments stream on JustinTV for frightening evidence of that. And some forums are zoos. And that helps the clubs dismiss the genuine nuggets of insight and real political questions raised in such forums. Which is why I spike posts on here that are foul mouthed, hate filled and untruthful.
An ill-informed, vindictive rant peppered with insults and half-truths and regurgitate pub rambling bereft of context is easily used as evidence that fans are stupid and that by extension that the media are encouraging willful ingnorance.
Plus, and this is important, it is not as useful a contribution as shrewd insight backed by tactical, technical or historical knowledge or genuine understanding of the mechanics of the game. And that is not about elitism but a concern for the content. What makes such popular imput as yours valuable - and gives it political weight - is the selection and moderating process. But then, I would say that wouldn't I.
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Ther Eric Paylor interview with Mr. Southgate: Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear..... When you read this desperately weak stuff from The Manager (again and again), it's no wonder we were relegated. Very, very poor - and easy amunition for those entrenched in the 'anti' faction. It won't help get the 'don't knows' onside either.
I've got past the angry stage now and onto the merely resigned but much more of that sort of stuff and I could get back to cross very quickly... but it would be fruitless.
So, I don't know if I want to even look at Parts II & III but it does have the seemingly unavoidable morbid fascination of rubber-necking at a wreck. I'd much rather have a convincing manifesto from him for how Boro are going to get back to the top flight this season we can get behind - if Mr. Southgate has one - and how he thinks the first quarter of the season has gone and does it meet his plans. There would be more than enough questions to ask about that, surely.
southgate today: "But since Alves was signed, we have changed the whole policy and procedure and the way we go about our recruitment" What was the policy before? Sign a player on the basis that he put seven past a non league team, watch some videos or take his agent's, or mum's, word that he is very good?
Think of a realistic figure: double, no treble, no whatever the word of multiply by 24 is that to work out the inflated fee you will pay? Not get suspicious that there hardly seems to be a scramble to sign him, despite a dearth of goal-every-two-games strikers anywhere out of the top four?
In some industries, in fact probably all, someone in responsibility who made that decision (and despite what anyone says, it was his responsibility and he would have a veto) and lost such a lot of money would be sacked or would be expected to, at very least, offer his resignation for the employers to accept or reject.
I cannot think of a such a shocking misjudgement and poor signing in football as it relates to a club's own finances. Ok, Man U and Chelsea have had bigger, more expensive turkeys, but their pockets are effectively bottomless. For Boro to waste that amount of money given their turnover, and debt, must be one of the worst signings ever made. Southgate must pray nightly to give thanks to whoever is the patron saint of tame local journalists who never ask hard questions.
**AV writes: The questions are all written down in the paper. Which ones did you think weren't pertinent? Which ones were 'easy' or soft on the manager? I think your gripe is the answers but we can't do anything about those.
I thought Alves was a great signing at he time it happened. I still think he had more chances to score than anybody else in our squad last season. I think he was a good player (bad players don't even get the chances). But something went wrong - unfortunately!
But I agree with John Powls that this interview serie might get people angry again. Just as I were hoping that something positive might emerge here and at the Riverside. So please accept what happened and concentrate on the next two home matches! Up the Boro!
Southgate has revealed that the policy used in signing of Alves has been changed and basically admitted that the sale of Luke Young , Cattermole and Boat made good buisness at the time but weakened the squad regarding prem experience.
A £7m cut had to be made to the squad. Luke Young was our player of the year the previous year and a real leader on the pitch, he was replaced by Hoyte for £3m making a profit of £3m. He basically sold our player of the year and the bite in midfield to chae an inflated price on un proved Alves. Complaints about a lack of experience on the pitch are mad after the team stripping that went on.
Experienced brazilian Rockemback could have suplied the bullets for Alves but went for nowt (I know he was on big wages) but even then we had Mendi not able to get a game all season despite being the most experienced player on the books and having blinders for the reserves. In order to save £7m we lost £25m and prem status. I dont want to hear the learned lesson stuff any more because it seems in order to teach Gareth what it takes to manage Gibbo has sacrificed the team. OUCH
A straight forward interview with GS so far,he's as honest as always. I dont think there are any surprises in what he has said.
For me the summary would be several mistakes made due to inexperience, combined with a reduction in funding, result relegation. There's nothing new there, I am interested in looking ahead though, strategy for the rest of the season, plans for the January window and indeed the Summer.
AV, I think the Gazette website is experiencing some technical problems as it seems a Boro Banter piece written by Richard has accidently been posted as a legitimate interview from Gareth Southgate.
Still, at least the Gazette has kindly broken up the article in order to give us time to recover from laughing from each gem - obviously these are too numerous to list but my favourite has to be the following: "There are certain players that you would have banked on to score goals and to make assists. They promised to reach those levels at the beginning of the season, but then it stopped"
Priceless! i'm already looking forward to parts II and III.
Bored of extra time. Watching the clock tick down, waiting for the fun bit of penalties? Tired of has been pundits talk of the lottery of the shoot-out and it’s a shame we can’t find another way settling a game.
Well after much thought, research and practical testing I have the new solution.
MULTI BALL
Extra time starts as normal but after 7 and a half mins a second ball is introduced via a bounce up in the centre circle. The original ball enters play where it last left i.e. throw in corner etc. Now the offside rule is only applicable from the edge of the box.
The start of the second half begins with an addition to the pitch. A giant (6ft) wooden toadstool. The sort of thing you might find on the bar billiards table, only bigger. Then with 7.5 mins to go a third ball is introduced, a vividly different colour to the other balls and is worth two goals if scored with.
If you are still reading this you may be wondering why the toadstool. Well this is placed on the centre spot but if knocked over by a player or a ball this ends the game. The side responsible for knocking over the toadstool instantly lose, even if they lead 15-4.
I only post this as I have grown bored by the constant criticism of the club no mater what they do. Southgate gets pelters for talking to the gazette and trying to explain some of last season’s failings. The Gazette gets pelters for asking soft questions.
What sort of world are some of you living in? What do you want? AV dressed up in full Rambo gear, breaks in to Southgate’s home in the middle of the night demanding answers. ‘Why did you destroy my club you fool?’ Southgate meekly replies ‘I’m sorry, I’m a worthless man, put me out of my misery’
Can we please lay off the club and the ‘soft press’ for a while or Multi ball extra time could become a reality for the modern, instant satisfaction football fan.
**AV writes: *sheepishly takes off ninja outfit*
It's on the field that counts. And I for one am just getting sick of reading all these regurgitated explanations, we all know the story by heart now.
Lets have some action on the home pitch now if the club want the fans back onside.
AV
On the pertinence of questions - and taking Alves as an example he might have been asked:-
Once you realised that this £12.7m asset wasn't performing on the field what analysis did you and your coaching and backroom team do to establish why - and what conclusions did you reach?
What interventions did you then put in place to improve his performance? Possibly physical conditioning, individual coaching or team coaching to ensure he had the best supply of chances that suited his style? In your view, why didn't those interventions work?
**AV writes: They are all good questions. Maybe we should draw up a list and see if we can work our way through them..
Well, after all the sensible comments on this blog over the last week, this won't help will it? Old wounds will be opened up again and dividing lines will be redrawn. This interview should have been done and dusted just after the season ended, and it really isn't helping right now. Read it if you wish, and then let's move on please.
We have a promotion campaign to progress. We put a bandaid on the wounds last week on this blog, please don't rip it off again.
For once I didn't get a copy of the Gazette, so it would appear I have missed my hard-copy of the hard-hitting interview of the manager. However I would have decided to give it a day or three before responding anyway, as I have decided "shooting from the hip when annoyed" may not always be the best response.
I reserve the right to go back on that decision if REALLY annoyed in the future, though (or maybe if I forget the New Resolution).
I have also realised I might for ages have been incorrectly giving a "co.uk" ending to my e-mail address in the address field above, rather than a ".com" Curses! I wonder how long I have been doing this, and also whether there are loads of messages out there from all sorts of sources that were never destined to get to me. Technology and how we can misuse it!
Not quite the muckraking expose some us tacitly desire, but full credit to EP for tapping into most of the items that previously fell short of acceptable levels of transparency. Same for GS too - a steady stream of candor that I still appreciate.
How controversial or cutting can we expect it be while he's still in the job?
Another "lesson" for Gareth to learn: when you are in a hole, stop digging!
Gareth take a tip from an experienced Manager, one who has learnt quite a few lessons over the years (including a few jibes, strikes and abuse). Do your talking out on the factory floor (read: Riverside pitch). A Manager gets judged by his ability to maximise productivity, efficiency, utilisation and most of all Profitability (read: results, preferably winning games).
Feeling sorry for yourself and trying to justify your decisions is a sign of weakness, stand firm and deliver the results and people will respect you and maybe even ....wait for it..... support you! The ones that despise you will despise you even more for being succesful (just revel in it), it goes with the territory.
AV, is this the BBC with so many repeats from the previous thread? I hope no one is allowed the 35,000 trophy with a repeat.
Now on to the topic. What is sad is that we will all, and I mean all, take what Gate has to say and fit it to our own views.
I genuinely believe that this is one of the best mediums for discussing the Boro and the way ahead. We have some fun and banter, one or two spats but there is a genuine concern about our team. Yes, our team. Gibbo, The Count and Gate are only temporary custodians of our beloved Boro.
And therein lies a problem with the current regime. We are the people who matter, we are the fans who support the club, who travel all over the country. However much we disagree on here, however much the Count dismisses us, however much we are told of 'opinions without responsibilty', when they are gone there will be people afflicted with the Boro gene.
I am not criticising the people at the club who are doing their best but Gate's words are irrelevant. The same as Gibbo and Count they are well meaning but nothing can undo the relegation. No point going over it for its own sake.
The only thing that matters is getting the club moving forward. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the media are there to be used. The club has no qualms about distributing its message, we just have the choice to believe it or not.
On Southgate - I like the guy for always answering the question honestly and I know he makes good stories fot you AV but he should really just stop digging for a while.
The PR sense at the club is non-existant. Don't they realise this will just wind the 'rusty bedspringers' up again? As you say it gives the antis the chance to use Young, Alves, Cattermole as sticks to beat the club again just as the dust was settling.
Let Gate address the nation in May when we are either back in the Prem when he is vindicated or offering his resignation. Until then I just want him to get on with winning games and getting the team right.
On Bernie - I will always love the guy for the goals and the good times as a player but like Southgate he should shut up too.
He is a broken clock and the High Priest of whinging gets who don't even go to the match and who spend Saturday nursing some ancient grudge against the club.
Legends is the worst example of pub talk elevated into entertainment. It is full of poisonous idiots with thinly veiled agendas who come out with ill-informed nonsense that Bernie NEVER pulls them up on.
It is one thing saying everyone has an opinion. It is quite another to say it is OK to propagate half-truths, rumour and wild conspiracy (the club "wanted to get relegated") as if it is true and without any challenge at all. He is supposed to "represent" the club to the NE public and be an expert yet at times he comes across as clueless at best and malcious at worst.
On this I agree with Southgate. Things like Legends ARE damaging because it lets loudmouths who don't even go to games shaping public opinion in the pubs and clubs and among all those people who the club need to win back. It is creating a bandwagon of doom.
Southgate tried to throw a lot of the blame for last season onto the players, saying he didn't have a big enough squad, they were young and inexperienced, their heads went down too often, too many players didn't perform, player unrest spread in the dressing room..
Sorry, but whose fault is that? HIS. HE is the manager, he assembled the squad, he picked the teams, it was his job to motivate players. He FAILED MISERABLY.
AV,
happy that we formulate a list of questions but, as I said, I'd prefer them to be about something that can be changed - this season. Nonetheless, some have resonance to the past because they're things that have continued from last season and before.
So, we might ask - why is the best left winger in the league now constantly square-pegged to the right wing (80 minutes in each of the last two games) and his effectiveness severely reduced - let alone his morale, as is evident from his demeanour on the field where he has looked jaded?
You can also argue the impact on Mark Yeates who, for me, is still struggling to step up a division despite his enthusiasm and effort.
Even my old mate Julio Arca has found himself on the left wing when coming on as a sub in the last two. There is much I can be critical of the Land Crab for but it's not his fault that he's asked to be what he isn't.
Why is there no 'Plan B'? OK, there is a strong preference for 4-4-2 and nothing wrong with that. But there are opponents, games and parts of games and times when your own available resources demand something different. Boro have never had that under this regime.
In what is often, rightly, acknowledged to be a squad game, one of the few tools that good managers and coaches have in their box when the game is in flight is their use of substitutes. At their best, these can be positively game changing. Can The manager point us to an occasion where his tactical use of substitutes has had that effect - or anything like it?
You might gather from the question that I can't think of a single such occasion. But I can think of plenty where a good or bad job has been made worse.
Why is Zonal Marking at set pieces persisted with?
Just one more for now - and topically - The manager said that he, the coaches and the players were going to use the International break to ruminate on the conundrum of why Boro's home form and results this season have been so much worse than those away.
With two important home games coming up, can he tell us what the results of their deliberations are and how we can expect them to be deployed against Watford?
I think I agree somewhat with Mr Averages point that rolling out the excuses now doesn't really help Southgate draw a line under anything - only winning promotion would do that.
Other than making him sound a bit David Brent-ish, the underlying theme I found from the interview was that Southgate felt he was powerless to affect change - once it had all started to go wrong then that was it.
To me it is proof that a change of manager last January would have been the best option in order to save our PL status - especially given the small margin of our relegation.
It also vindicates the people who said Southgate doesn't have the experience yet to be given such a high profile job - clearly he was having problems motivating the players as he himself admitted that the players could have done better.
On the subject of Bernie - he comes across as a very passionate character, and whether you agree with him or not, I bet a half-time team talk from him would get the players adrenalin going more than one from Gareth.
Good Morning AV.
I tried to post on this thread last night from a different machine. First I forgot to put in my name and address and hit submit before realising it and then I tried again with a summary of what I had tried to say. All seems to have disappeared without trace.
I was generally agreeing with the observation you made and that others have already repeated, that everyone is going to take from this “interview” whatever they want. I was having a small cynical moment, that the editorial team at the Gazette knew exactly what they were doing in arranging this and then running it ……. more copy sold, more web hits, lots of letters in the post or lots of comments posted on-line, stirring up more of Pte Frazer’s “We’re doooomed” sentiment.
But then again this morning, feeling a little more sanguine about it. The Gazette is , after all only doing a job, fulfilling the need of a large and varied population, for some of whom navel gazing and dwelling on past shortcomings is probably something genetic, but who, all the same, have the right to have news delivered that they can connect with.
I did go on to suggest that SmogontheTyne had a brilliant idea about the giant toadstool (what was he smoking at the time, I wonder ….) and I wondered whether there would be any scope in this plan to introduce giant flippers if, with only 10 minutes left of Toadstool Time, the team had ingloriously failed even to get the toadstool knocked down, let alone score one of those double points with the coloured ball. This would at least give that section of the support the opportunity to really knock the team and the management, rather than just to be vocal about it, just to make absolutely sure that the other team will win.
But, this morning, I even find that idea a little silly.
I read Ernie’s comments at the end of the last thread this morning and there we have it. It proves the point.
Quite right Kev B …..
“Read it if you wish, and then let's move on please. … we have a promotion campaign to progress.”
And quite right Ian Gill ……
“ No point going over it for its own sake ……… the only thing that matters is getting the club moving forward.”
**AV writes: You make a key point that the Evening Gazette is for "a large and varied population." That includes those - the sane majority - who don't spend 24 hours a day hardwired to the web devouring and deconstructing every single word about the club, sifting the semiotics looking for hidden meaning or worse, searching for implied insults and evidence of conspiracy. Not everyone thinks too much about it like we obssessives do on here.
A lot of people out there in Gazetteshire will read the Southgate stuff without pre-conceptions and think: "Hey, that was really interesting. I never knew/thought about that." That includes fans who are not in the political hot-house, casual supporters, non-attenders, former fans, kids who are prospective future diehards, nanas who take a passing interest, people who support other clubs or none. We write for them too. We can't assume everyone is a paid up faction fighter.
Some people appear to think that our job is to lead an inquisition on behalf of a disaffected minority who have an undisguised agenda to drive the manager out and anything short of that is some kind of betrayal. It isn't. Neither is it to defend the boss ex-officio as part of some symbiotic alliance with Keith Lamb.
Our job is to provide interesting, pertinent and entertaining news and views that reflect all strands of opinion and try to give the fullest picture possible. A key element of that is whenever possible getting the key people in the club to explain in their own words exactly what their thinking is on the big issues. What you do with that, which bits you underline furiously with a red pen is up to you.
And we will never get all the answers all the people want. And you will never get anyone, in any walk of life, to demean themselves with some public confession of their own ineptitude and worthlessness, which is the only thing that some people will accept before they will bedgrudingly admit we are not sycophants.
You will never get people at the club to cough to what the zealots want. We can't wire their gonads up to electrodes and whack them full of truth serum to get answers that satisfy the fundamentalists, no matter how many hits it would get as a webcast.
If you are torturing Lambie sign me up for that webcast. You'll get more takers who pay for that than will pay for Englandnil.com
I love it when AV gets riled and starts to defend the Gazette. Very entertaining. Reveals more than Gareth does about his job.
**AV writes: Riled? That is my default.
There is a maxim widely stated in business (and maybe the wider world also) that goes something like 'Never ask a question unless you know what you are going to do with the answer'.
So when I read various posters stating Uncle Eric should have asked this or that, my question is why? What would you do with the answer?
For example John believes GS should have been asked what he did and what interventions he put in place once he realised Alves wasn't performing?
What would we do with the answer? It might be 'we gave him extra shooting practice', 'we sent him to a sports psycologist', 'I gave him a good b*ll*cking', 'I did nothing' or 'I realised he didn't have the mental strength to compete in the Prem.' (the last one is my belief by the way).
He may have given any of those answers, if he had where would it take us? Would we feel better, would the'anti' Southgate faction suddenly forgive him, not at all.
I'm not having a go at John here by the way. my point is I'm not sure there is much to be gained by constantly re-visiting last seasons car crash, we all know mistakes were made, we all have different opinions on what should be or should have been done and we all know (like it or not) that GS is the manager and more than likely will remain so while Boro are promotion contenders.
I want to know what Southgate's views are looking ahead, that is more relevant and interesting to me. I also know that I'm enjoying being a Boro supporter this season much more than I have for a few seasons, its proving to be an exciting season to date, so for that reason I'm in!
And by the way, Three Legends is bloody awful and I don't blame GS for having a pop at it. The idiots they get on there (and who BS encourages) are among the most badly informed, thick, easily angered, soulless, chronic depressive and sad individuals I have had the misfortune to hear - and I've been a Boro fans for 40 years.
Powmil – you need to trust your gut instinct. Toadstool time will form the corner stone of Flavio Briatore's new Euro League the Total One Soccer Show. No games can end in draws. Managers only have contacts for a month and have to have a TV crew (ala Peter Andre) following them 24/7.
Clubs already signed up for this league are Celtic, Rangers, FC Wacker Tirol, Sub Standard Liege. The Boro could be the first English Side to sign up; however Barnsley and Totnes Town are interested.
One of the stipulations of the new league is that fans have a place on the board and they can appoint one of their own to be manager for two games a season. Every signing, training method and tactic has to be ratified by the bored/fans. Therefore complete accountability and understanding of the fans.
I for one can’t wait for the advent of TOSS
Or you can put your £35.00 in to Ebbsfleet and get constant e mails asking you to vote on Team selection, transfer dealings, club budgets. It drives you nuts. Can’t we just leave the running of the club to those in charge?
Or I may regret asking this, are there posters on here that think they honestly can do a better job than GS, SG and the Gazette?
What questions where actually answered? I don't think those questions had teeth at all. Yes he may have answered them honestly but he ain't hardly gunna turn around and say, "well Lamb bought Alves, I didnt want him so na na na na na na na."
Whilest he is an employee of Middlesbrough Football Club he will never go into details of boardroom conversations, why it went wrong and why he failed, dressing room unrest... I'm sorry but that is what you get when you keep players who do not want to play for your club.
Downing wanted to go, he should have gone. O'Neil wanted to go, should have gone. We could have acted and brought in players with a point to prove who where available. There was plenty of experience available in that transfer window. Most of it went to our rivals, why couldnt he have explained that?
Why did £7million need to be cut that season? Why did you play six defenders at home to Blackburn? Why didnt you set the team up to get at Sunderland, Wigan, Blackburn, Fulham? Why do you allways wait till other managers make substitutions before your own? Why have you never ever changed tactics in a game?
Why are you still at this club? Why do you feel that in the last three years with your decision makiing and shift in finances you are capable of bringing this club back to the premier league?
**AV writes: Why pose questions if you say there will be no worthwhile reply?
Gareth Southgate is always going to be beaten with a stick, whatever he says in any interviews.
I agree the timing of this 'Forsytgate saga' is probably ill timed, however, I have to agree with Kev B that the bandaid shouldn't be ripped off and we should be looking forward, not mulling on past events.
What we don't need is this festering from the bandaid to a full blown bandage and sling !
I don't think I like the idea of a riled AV.
I think we are actually talking about the same thing here and I'm not taking a pot at the Gazette (and especially not AV). I'm taking a pot (if that is the stuff what brings on giant toadstools) at those who latch onto everything that is published in good faith as yet another something to talk the team and the manager and the club down.
It's worth repeating Kev B again ... “Read it if you wish, and then let's move on please. … we have a promotion campaign to progress.” and double underline the "..we have a promotion campaign to progress" bit.
**AV writes: The questions are all written down in the paper. Which ones did you think weren't pertinent? Which ones were 'easy' or soft on the manager? I think your gripe is the answers but we can't do anything about those."
I never said anything about being pertinent. The questions about Alves were simply invitations to state the party line. In another journalistic sphere, say a reporter questioning a local council about wasting £12m, the person responsible would be asked, politely, how the decision was made, on what basis was that price arrived at, when he fudged questions, he would be pressed.
Simply saying the procedure has changed is not good enough. It's not as if the club had never bought players before, and good ones. The point is that someone's professional judgement was seriously flawed, there was no consequences for them, unlike the rest of the club and fans and this is something that should have been addressed with more vigour as it was probably one of the crucial factors in us being relegated. Same goes with the mismanagement of senior players, tactics etc.
**AV writes: But with a local council official the person being questioned would be under an obligation to answer because there is a legal process by which accountability can be ascertained: there are rules on the publication of documents, Freedom of Information requests to find out the paper trail of the mechanics of a decision and ultimately there are bodies like the Standards Commission and the Ombudsman for recourse. They may not be all powerful or perfect tools but they at least give reporters statutory teeth.
Football is different. It is a private and closed community under no legal obligation whatsoever to reveal its finances, its structures or the motivation foro its decision making. Football authorities don't even know precisely who the owners are at Leeds, Notts County and Portsmouth. What questions do you suggest the local reporters ask there? And what sanctions do the use if answers are not forthcoming?
Ultimately getting any information beyond the most basic news or spin, comes down to building a diplomatic, symbiotic relationship on the ground. Aggressive and inquisitorial questioning does not work. They won't answer and next time you ask for an interview they will just say no.
AV, re your comments about the Gazette's job leading an inquisition. I believe that the main thrust of those wanting such a thing, or at least the desires of the 'more educated fan' you get on this blog, are motivated for such a process because they feel that despite the promises of management and the all round consensus that a thorough investigation and analysis followed by firm action was not just necessary but imperative, that it never really happened. Or if such an event ever took place, the blame was really to be found with those carrying out the questioning and were never likely to pronounce themselves guilty or carry out the sentencing required.
Maybe it was our own fault for believing those that promised it and allowing them to raise our expectations of what such a thing would accomplish in the first place.
Following the old axiom that people never really change, the same personnel given essentially the same problems to solve will produce the same answers, hence we have seen the same errors repeated this season despite close-season promises from management and owners.
The only management / backroom staff that seem to have been 'held accountable' are those that have gone for reasons of cost cutting rather than under-performance.
Whilst I would completely agree that it is not the Gazette's job to carry out such an inquisition, there is also a strong feeling that as fans like us all wanting the same thing, you are perhaps best placed to do so, and that as it seems to have been carried out so poorly by those who announced to the world that they deemed it necessary in the first place.
Perhaps MFC needs its own 'Internal Affairs' unit, with the power to replace any and all members of Management and the Board, reporting not back to SG (who would also be under investigation) but reporting solely to the members of this blog with yourself as Chief Inquisitor, dressed a la Monty Python...
Remember, No-One Expects the Untypical Boro Inquisition!
**AV writes: "Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless inefficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the pursuit of truth.... Our four ... no... Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, cynicism, a tendency to believe almost any tittle-tattle, inefficiency and an almost fanatical devotion.... etc"
After reading the two pieces in the gazette from both Mr Southgate and Mr Slaven. I find myself siding with Mr Slaven's article.
This maybe that Bernie is able to speak his mind without the restraints Gareth faces from the club? However i remember listening to Bernie talking passionately 2-3 years ago how worried he was with how things were going i.e. selling our best players, the squad getting thinner and weaker, the age of the squad and playing players constantly out of position.
This i recall prompted MFC to ban Bernie from the ground and end the coverage of his radio station and state in the press the ex players didn't know what they are talking about. Well look at the picture now all of the concerns Bernie had have left us relegated and an average team in a very poor league.
I too would like Gareth, Keith, Steve to have the guts to go on his radio show and listen to the fans without the sugar coated protection offer by Radio Tees. Then finally admit to Bernie on air that the rubbish he was spouting has come true.
The question I would like to ask is simply :-
"Cleary, there were mistakes made last season in the management and coaching approach which directly led to us being relegated and having the worst scoring record in the UK. After being retained by Steve Gibson somewhat fortuitously, how are you and your backroom staff going to change your approach so that we do not see the same mistakes repeated and subsequently fail to achieve promotion?"
That is the least a 'Client' (i.e. the fans) should expect to have clarified
I've just finished reading Southgate II, in fact I read it three times in case I missed something, but it was all a bit dull really with nothing new - though not nearly as dull as watching pictures of NASA crash a spacecraft into the moon (now that has certainly raised the dullness bar way ahead of watching dry paint stay dry)
Anyway, I assume it's all meant as a PR exercise to try and demonstrate there's nothing to worry about (that's Southgate not NASA). Though I'd disagree with the point that "Nobody in this division frightens me in a one off game. I’m sure they don’t frighten the fans either" - he forgot about Boro - they often need watching from behind the sofa.
Maybe there'll be a twist in part III? when Southgate goes berserk and holds uncle Eric hostage until everybody agrees he's doing a good job - maybe not.
Are Eric and Brownlee the two with the comfy cushions?
And now for something completely different. I wonder if Gate could be likened to the Parrot? Or the Gibbo and the Count likened to Doug and Dinsdale Piranha?
Note to GS.
When you are in a hole, stop digging. Don't ask the Gazette to send a JCB round to help you.
Pat Mc, exactly. That's where the fault lies, and we need to know that Management acknowledge it, and are doing something to ensure the same mistakes are not repeated.
I feel that this interview with Southgate is unecessary at this point in time and counterproductive. What good is it to immerse yourself in the past when we need to know what is going to happen in January and beyond. What is the clubs overall strategy to move forward?
You might as well have done an interview with Robson about the three point fiasco and how a team with Juninho, Rav and Emerson could possibly have gone down reopening that old wound.
I agree with the criticisms of Mr. Average of the Legends show. I gave up on it quite a while ago. It is complete and utter rubbish.
Not sure what SG was trying to achive but I agree that the interview just seems to deepen divisions. Is this deliberate?
Reading Bernie's quotes I'm now firmly entrenched within the faction that want change, accountability-for-failure and the freedom to express our opinion - either positively or negatively.
Maybe Bernie should apply for the job? He's tuned into the clubs problem areas and the fans expectations. A step up from Southgate on that basis at least. The post match interviews would be entertaining if nout else....
The internet has gone insane with opinions and views over the last 12 or so years as it has grown and spread to most homes. I couldn't imagine being able to (or even wanting to) send an WWW blast at Brucie's red and white army back in 86. The club cannot respond to everybody and I assume that some people even write or email the club direct.
That is why GS comes out and answers the Gazette's questions. AV is right, GS has no obligation to admit/explain anything. It is not the fault of the Gazette that GS does not come out and say well, we dropped one letting Rocky, Catts and Young go that summer. I suppose we will have to wait for his book to come out for that.
I am dissapointed with 'more of the same' answers and I know it won't get the fence sitters to the matches. Just before the Reading match I decided I was going to attend the Watford game. Its not because I think the management team are doing a good job - or that I think the club is well run (in terms of PR, transfers, reaching out beyond the 5 mile radius into Yorkshire etc etc) but just because I want to go and see the Boro win football matches.
I have to say the Gazette's timing of the publication of this interview is perfect, I wasn't looking forward to a weekend free of Championship footie and thought we'd drift through the next week or so.
Now with this article not only can the RaRa's and Chicken running bed wetters chew each other up, we can now turn on the messenger aka the Gazette sports desk! Fantastic, it's great to live in the modern world of instant news and electronic communication where we can all engage in rational debate............
**AV writes: Glad to be of service...
**AV writes: Why pose questions if you say there will be no worthwhile reply?"
OK so if southgate comes out and says I didnt want to sign Alves, Lamb tied my hands behind my back and I had to work with a player I didnt rate? What would the backlash be?
I think more fans would be on his side but he doesn't, he minces around the questions and by doing so lets people make there own assumptions about what it means?
Redknapp last week was talking about Nugent, he says i didnt really rate him and was unsure at first, I wanted to sign Anelka but the chairman didnt have the funds and had been told Nugent was available for a fraction of the price....?
Is that an answer that beats around the bush or an answer free from the shackles?
I just dont think these questions are anything we havent already heard. Give me tomorrow's questions and I bet i can answer them for you!!!!
"Well I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition..."
Well said Mr Gill.
All this "public flogging" via forums and phone-ins is deeply unsatisfactory.
Isn't it about time that we returned to the good old days of the village stock? What a smashing piece of half-time entertainment that would be. The opportunity to chuck some rotten vegetable matter at our manager would be worth the entrance fee alone. Who knows, the gates might even go up!
Personally, AV, I don't see what the big fuss is about. So Southgate commented that people have more of a public say that they had before and can say whatever they like without accountability. To a certain extent, he's right isn't he?
We can write whatever we like on here and fill in whatever gaps we want to with our own ideas and opinions and everyone can choose whether they want to read it or not. Whether they want to take notice or not. It's just a fact of 21st century life.
Why so then, if Southgate gives his opinion on this (and I didn't take any of it as a dig, just his acceptance of how it is), do we slam him for it? I agree with his accountability question because we all expect him to say the right things otherwise we hold him accountable for it.
If I was him I wouldn't want to talk to the media because whatever I say gets blown out of proportion. But he doesn't, he gets out there and still answers questions. He accepts the criticism and says its just the way it is and accepts it.
If there's anyone on here who is perfect and never makes mistakes then maybe they should run the country, never mind Boro, because I haven't met anyone yet who is capable of that.
We want him to tell us all the whole truth and nothing but the truth, except if we don't agree with it. It disappoints me that we treat people just trying to do a job like that.
I agree with John.
I have no problem with Southgate saying anything, not even about the fans. People whinge non stop about their "right" to boo and insult players routinely in the ground and on the internet but as soon as a player or manager has a go back (even as gently as GS) they start squealing and go into some emotional meltdown of indignation.
They want GS to be more honest and he comes out and says something concrete they don't like and they can't handle it. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.
He should have been brutally honest and added that most of these fans are stupid too. Half baked opinions without accountability.
Nigel 1:53pm .... whenever was love rational ? COB
Werdermouth
If you thought NASA crashing a spacecraft into the moon and GateGate 2 were dull you should have been at the first 70 mins of the Leicester City match.
AV
I must admit I havent seen Bernies articles for ages. Is that because I live outside Gazetteworld?
I think the blog about the interviews is more interesting than the content. As you say, it appears most of it is a rehash of what we already knew and not worth commenting upon but no doubt it will prove useful for those outside our self obsessed cyber world.
**AV writes: Yes, Bernie, along with our other columnists is a print only feature. It is a cynical ploy to get people to buy the paper. You can't everything for free.
Powmill - Is that another Joy Division song?!
I have to agree that the Legends show is now awful. The same 10 people call each night. Its now Mickeys (I can shout louder than you two) to Bernies (please call me Boro fans,or I might be out of a job)... even Malcolm has drifted into the Laurel and Hardy skits, I'm afraid its gone from a true fans forum to a pantomime of self indulgence
I agree with John. And with Neil M. I am fully supportive of Gareth Southgate.
I support Boro but I do not love Boro.
The Gazette does a very decent job - up to a point.
Although almost all of us didn't know all of the details begind all of the goings on at Rockliffe and at board level, much of what Gareth Southgate is now disclosing could be guessed at by anyone with half a brain or a little imagination.
Also, it really SHOULD be accepted that the top people at the club don't and haven't been acting against what they believe to be the best interests of the club. To suggest otherwise is simply perverse - or designed to reinforce a personal following of neanderthals that keeps you in a pundits job by continuously lambasting a club you purport to "love" (puke)!
So what Gareth is now saying to Uncle Eric is simply putting a little more meat on the skeleton of what many of us knew, or could already guess.
There are bigger, more interesting questions out there about the future - and they're NOT answerable by Gareth Southgate.
Looking forward, for me, the jury's out on Steve Gibson, his plans for the future of Boro, the PR function at the club and if and how Gibson plans to take the fans along with him (or in the company of others) on the next phase of the journey.
Building on the uncertainty lying behind an observation by poster Geoff Blonckeye-Watson on an earlier thread, I too would like to know what's next after Premier League status revival, should it happen? What happened to pushing on to the next level then Steve?
If you can't afford it, what are you going to do to turn Boro into a potent and sustainable Premier League challenger? Or have we all given up on that one because the fundamentals are too challenging and the realities of the big peoples' world are just too big for your little Boro and its 5-mile radius??
While I'm sure the club's intentions were good with this interview, they really should learn that well-intended or not, a lot of people just get really annoyed at whatever the club says.
Can't really see the point of it at this time, the only thing that will bring some fans round (barring a public flogging of Gareth) is winning matches.
SmogontheTyne's 6 foot wooden toadstool bar-billiards Multi-ball game: thinking RIGHT out of the box. BoroPhil's "public flogging of Gareth": blood sports brought into the third millennium.
With spectacles like these on offer, there wouldn't be any more 18,000 crowds at the Riverside. We could put another tier on. And if we get an enthusiastic 55,000 crowd each week, think of the profits to be made in the Parmo Bars, Petch's Pies Stands and winkle barrows. It might even drive some people to drink (I haven't looked recently, but do they still sell "Boro Buckets"?).
Of course a simpler solution might be to translate away performances into home good form. I know it's old fashioned, but most of us go for the footie and we feel better about life if we win.
It's not ALL about winning generally, though. A good performance in a losing game can be OK, too. Let's be honest, if we drew Man Utd or Arsenal in a 3rd Round FA Cup tie and lost in a 3 - 4 thriller, many of us would leave the ground in good spirits. We would have put up a good show, and still saved ourselves for the promotion battle ahead.
So when I said it's not ALL about winnning generally, I should have hedged that with a few qualifications. This season is all about seeking (and hopefully securing) promotion. If we go up, next season would no doubt be more about securing survival, and in the context of last season, that might be a grim affair. In that case we would find good performances and good football secondary in importance. The 3-4 cup defeat might then be a welcome distraction.
For this season, however, and having been in the top league for a decade and more, and then finding ourselves in a league where WE are percieved to be one of the big fish (rather like the Champions League teams in the Premier League), being able to put some decent football on the pitch seems a fairly minor request. But even then, promotion would be more important.
Football - a results game. Do well on the field and problems with the fans will vanish. Suddenly articulate, nice boy Gareth will become popular. Grief, even the Count may attract some admiration. Well, perhaps that is going too far.
Stiil, when SmogontheTyne tells us what he was drinking before his "out of the box" post earlier, can I have one, too?
AV - Why didn't you get the chance to do the interview with GS?
Don't get me wrong, I was impressed that Eric and co managed to get the report of the matches in the Sports Gazette out before I even got home from Ayresome. In the pre-internet and mobile phone days that was impressive.
But Eric's stuff smacks of a bit of brown nosing nowadays and as fans we need some harder hitting stuff. The stuff we get in your blogs which represents the most balanced viewpoint of all opinions and puts things into a correct perspective.
Bernie's soundbites are quite pertinent, but it will the whingers who will get the majority of air-time on the three legends irrespective. Bernie is a journalist now, and will be pushing the more extreme anti-GS elements rather than those more moderate. By moderate I mean we are about where I expected and that now gives him until the New Year to sustain and improve our position in the league.
**AV writes: It's a good cop, bad cop thing.
AV
Tried various newsagents in Teesside to see if anyone could deliver a Gazette to Derby but they said their delivery people wouldnt get back in time for school.
Borophil
Why should Gibbo and The Count miss out on a public flogging. Or we could have 'I work for Boro, get me out of here' where we observe the whole motley crew in action and vote each week but in this version the worst performing stays and gets flogged at the end.
Even better put the winner in a room for a week to watch a compilation of our 'greatest' performances on a continuous loop for a week.
The basic answers to the problems at Middlesbrough (sorry Gibsonbrough) is obvious - lose the manager, job done. Simples. He has lost the crowd, he will never get them back on side, too many memories of three seasons of dross.
I have to admit that I didn't think that it was possible for GateGate III to be a bigger yawn with less information and insights and more platitudes than GateGates I & II.
Some achievement.
NorthantsBoro said.
"Bernie is a journalist now".
I hope that's a worthy attempt at sarcasm rather than a dig at a worthy profession.
What was I smoking, what was I drinking?? I am most upset at these accusations. As reported earlier I am renowned economist (early career at Enron and moved to Halifax bank). My blue sky thinking is to help the Boro be at the forefront of plucking the juiciest fruit from the highest branches.
Living in Toonland I get to sniff at the rarefied air and benefit from the logic and free thinking of the locals. I consider Mr Ashley a shining light in how to run a football club. He has a much better grasp of fans wishes than that muppet Gibson. What has he ever done for the Boro? The self publicist! He probably only puts his time and money into the club to then be able to buy the opportunity to have a go at the people of Stockton. The sooner we are rid of him the better. Me and Mr Ashley will only be too happy to fill the void.
Chairman/ Owner, Mike Ashley
Chief Exec, Me
Manager, Scordedraw
Asst Mgr, My Dad (the Admiral),
Head Scout, P Beagrie
Communications Director, AV (just to keep him and his cronies on side)
My first initiative is to make all our games only available on pay per view internet. I can’t see that getting a bad reaction.
Bernie is completely correct in saying that everyone has the "RIGHT" to an opinion but he is wrong if he is saying that every opinion is EQUAL.
They are not equal. That is why Bernie has a column in the Gazette and not say John Powls. Bernie is a former player so we give his opinions more weight, despite the fact that half of what he says is utter tosh (Bernie, not Powls).
If anyone on the Legends disagrees with him Bernie is quick to wheel out the fact he was a player as he shouts them down. In fact, Bernie can't go two sentences without reminding people that he used to be a professional. That because no matter what he says about every opinion being equal he actually believes the opposite - that being a former player makes him more informed. And it does.
I will get some stick for this but judging by what I hear around me, most fans don't know anything about the game. They think passion is the same as knowledge. It isnt. Most are stupid. They don't understand tactics, they don't understand what players are doing, the don't understand that there are two teams on the pitch and sometimes what the other lot are doing is the most important thing, and they don't even understand the rules.
I hear enough rubbish in the ground and in the pubs. I hear even more idiots on the phone-ins (606, talksport, Youre on Sky Sports and the local versions) and now even the Championship highlights show gets some bimbo to read out e-mails from other fools. Always ridiculous extremes, either sack someone after one defeat or someone else is going to win the league. These shows paint a very poor picture of us fans.
I agree with Bernie. Southgate should apologise for slagging the fans. We can say what the hell we like. If the dont like being booed they should start winning games.
I really do not see the point of this interview stuff with Southgate. I don't know whether this was a contrived attempt by the Gazette and MFC to "put the record straight" from the managers point of view, but whatever the reason, for me it failed miserably.
It succeeded only in dragging up all the stuff we on this blog and everyone else who supports Boro knew in our heads and hearts of why we got relegated, something I am still having trouble coming to terms with, hence I haven't been on here for some time (even though I read every word).
I really don't want to read any more from the MFC trio about the why's and wherefore's. What's done is done and everyone associated with MFC and Boro are having to live with it.
Whether we like it or not the bubble has exploded and we are now a Championship team, who even if we were to gain promotion, is going to struggle like hell to survive and stay in the PL.
So if MFC and the Gazette are going to contrive to get all the lost fans back on side, then why not tell us what the plans are should we get back up. For instance where will the funds come from for new players, Gibbo has none now so why should we expect he will suddenly find a pot of gold come May.
I wonder if GS keeps the side winning, how long will it be before we are all singing his praises?
Good to see Ledge have a decent game against Italy last evening. Just a shame about the one, late lapse of concentration with his defensive colleagues - Gilardinho doesn't need the gift of two yards space in the box to turn and shoot, but he'll take it.
But, great to see the Boro centre back get the sort of goal that we're (thankfully) starting to become used to him getting for The Reds.
Fingers crossed for another good run out for him against Montenegro and no injuries!
I hate international breaks. The local sports papers have no news to write about so they resort to doing things that have already been done and then split it into three installments to fill even more paper space...
We have another break in November. Who are you going to reinterview again then?
They should cut out qualification altogether. Do it like Ice Hockey, A, B, C world championship with relegation and promotion. Then we have no breaks, and the bed wetters can moan about the last match instead of having to repeatedly moan about last season.
Steve H
I have been drinking gallons of water, beer, coffee and tea but I am having real troubles bed wetting. My wife is thinking of sending me to the doctors to see if I can get a prescription.
International breaks are a real pain. I never thought I would see the day when I was more interested in the Republic of Irelend than England. My standard response to the Celtic nations is that I give them all the support and best wishes that they give England, cant be fairer than that.
It is probably reasonable to say that Ledge scoring and not being culpable for the goals conceded is a result. Sorry to Celtic Boro supporters, nothing personal.
I suppose the fact the ingerlund match wasnt on TV created part of the problem. Still Notts County vs Torquay up next. I have a soft spot for Count living in the Midlands. Dont tell anyone, but I have a soft spot for Helen Chamberlain as well.
centre forwardproblem fixed!!!
St Ledger....
This whole interview thing has just dragged up old wounds. This should have been done at the end of last season with all three of them.
Since the season has started we first had Lamb then Gibson and now Southgate giving their accounts of what went wrong. All interviews coming after decent wins.
If all this was out early the good start would have put this all to bed but no we are now spending two weeks dissecting what happened last season ten games into this one. In business that is trying to fix history which we all know you cannot.
Before this last set of doom interviews from Gareth we were getting into what the team, club, fans needed to do to turn things around at home. As our next two games are at home I find this a far more important issue.
I notice the Uncle Eric article about Boro trying to keep Johnson.
Here is a little tip, play him on the left side of midfield, you may find it helps but one suspects he is waiting to see who is interested in January.
If an established Premiership side cames along with a decent offer then I suspect he will move because he will put his future before any loyalty to Boro. I will not criticise anyone for thinking of their career.
The club will be faced with the prospect of him leaving on a free or taking some profit on an academy player. And of course we have those well known left wingers, Yeates and Arca.
If Adam Johnson decides not to sign a contract extension in the next few months then does that place him into the group of players who don't want to be at Boro? - and hence not part of Southgate's criteria for people he wants at the club.
Personally, I can't see him signing a new deal if, as uncle Eric says, PL clubs are queuing up ready to make an offer in January - can Boro offer him better wages than Sunderland for example? So what's in it for him to stay at Boro beyond his current contract? At best be part of a low-budget team where avoiding relegation from the PL is the aim.
So Boro have only two choices: sell him in January and risk promotion but bank the cash or keep him until next summer and be happy with a small compensation fee - Sadly, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him joining Cattemole up the road if he sits down with his advisors to discuss his future ambitions.
AV, this internatonal break is awfull! Please give something positive to think about.
Let's concentrate on the next home game. What are the weak and strong points of our opponents? How do you, AV, see us attacking at home . We do have a problem with our home form? What can supporters do to make Riverside a fortress again?
My prediction: Boro 2 Watford 0. AV's prediction?
Up the Boro!
**AV writes: I think we will batter them. Then again I always do when it is that far away. I don't start flapping until the morning of the game.
I agree with both Ian and Werdermouth on Johnno.
Rumour has it that all is not happy in paradise between player and manager either - and hasn't been for a while. That can't help.
It's got to be odds on that he moves on in January but, in the meantime - and as the scouting for a replacement goes on, his value to Boro on the field in the games in the rest of this calendar year and his value in the market can only be enhanced by playing him on the left wing.
AV
Should be in good company with the Corporal, he can flap for Australia.
As it is looking like a slow news day (famous last words, we are bound to announce the return of Juninho or something).
AV, does being a boro fan help you when writing these blogs? Or if you were to move to Dundee do you think you could do a similar thing North of the border or for any club? In the world of journalism is there headhunting in local papers. Would you fancy a move to a national? What would it take to turn your head? (neck muscles withstanding)
PS. Ever since I mentioned the number of replays to these blogs they have gone through the roof. Coincidence?
**AV writes: You need to be emotionally engaged, obsessive over minutae and have overly sensitive political attenna to write top quality BS like this. I couldn't do it anywhere else. I have "snubbed" approaches from bigger clubs because I'd rather have the creative freedom and be happy in what I do than have more money but write rubbish I don't care about for papers I don't like. I'm old fashioned like that.
I think the above comments by John Powls and others rearding Jonno are incorrect.
Why would any club offer big money for a player that they can get 5 months later with only a payment for his development.
Also IF we are in the same league position in January what's in it for the club to accept £2-3m for him.He could be the difference between going up and not .That alone will earn the club about £25m T.V. money.
I believe he will stay for the season.If at the end of it we've gone up then even if we lose him it will have been a gamble that's paid for itself about 10 times.
**AV writes: The main reason a club may offer cash in January is to steal a march on other clubs. Come the summer there could be eight-10-12 clubs interested and then it becomes a wages auction.
Anyone who fears they may get squeezed out by more glamorous or bigger paying rivals then (say a lower-mid Prem side) may be tempted to make their move early.
Stockton Red - to what **AV writes, you can add the feelings and wishes of the player himself - and, therefore, his representatives.
I do, of course, hope you're right!
Cheers AV, are there any rumours of potential investment into the club? Reports at the weekend suggest that at least 10 wealthy Arabs were looking to invest in PL and Championship clubs. I honestly don’t want a billionaire foreign sugar daddy. That may be the only way to compete at the very top, but we have never been there anyway.
Also I believe a Euro Super league is now a serious possibility. Maybe not Flavio’s TOSS but it will happen in some form. With seven or eight of the top clubs out of the league it would make it a lot more competitive. Anyway, would the club be open to foreign investment? I’m guessing Gibbo wants to remain the major share holder, but would he take some petro dollars?
PS: When you turned down the bigger club did you do it Steven Gerrard style, by initially accepting, then rejecting and getting a bumper new contract? Take that Wapping!!
**AV writes: As if myself, my agent, my accountant and my PR and brand management consultant would play a cynical game like that!
AV, for a bet have you ever put a certain word, an acronym or phrase into one of your articles? Can we use the quietness of this international break to request articles for the next break in November? Providing we don’t lose the next five games and you really do have something to write about, how about?
• The academy, how much has it cost, who has it turned out, how many pro’s now in the game are due to the MFC academy?
• On an uplifting note, favourite boro memories but not the obvious promotion or cup highlights?
**AV writes: I'm always up to do requests.
Some random Boro memories: the away game at Barnsley where they thought they had been promoted because their PA man got a score wrong and then had to retract it to spark chaos, including the angry home fans being faced down by the Boro 'lads' in Hawaiian shirts and flip flops; the back doors of a transit van bursting open at the traffic lights in Nottingham city centre before the play-offs and a loads of Boro lads falling out and one of them getting up blow a reveille on a bugle; people barging Pele out of the way to get Wilfie's autograph at Wembley; Save Redcar Baths! Uwe Fuchs walking up and down the bar in the Dickens wearing only a black plastic bag; Willie will you reggae with me; hundreds of Boro lads sitting on the lions and in the fountains in Trafalgar Square singing the night before the ZDS; Alen Boksic scoring a wonder goal against Coventry and looking bored to tears by the whole thing; being soaked through to the bones at Old Trafford in the Rumbelows SG in 1992; the sadness of the auction when they broke up and sold off Ayresome Park..... and many, many more.
Adam Johnson was on Soccer AM Saturday morning.(His pal Jonathan Grounds was backstage). He stated that he liked playing on the right. Perhaps a bit of player power is being exercised?
From his demeanour I would suggest cashing in on him in January.
I'm not too sure there is much point in sweating on Johnno , historical evidence suggests Boro won't sell in January. If that is the case we will have the benefit of his services until May, then if we're still in the Championship he will leave for a premiership club and if we've been promoted he may stay as we will be able to offer him a big salary increase. Or alternatively he will leave for a club playing in the Champions league (is he that good?) or the Europa league.
My gut feeling is that he is on his way, he may be similar to Downing in that he uses his left foot and has talent, but I'm not sure he has Downing's loyalty, which was unusually strong. He isn't a 'Boro boy' born within the magic 5 mile radius of the Riverside is he?
If he goes hopefully it will be on the back of playing a big part in Boro gaining promotion. Interestingly I feel from what I read that already one or two posters are preparing to blame GS for his departure, unbelievable!
If Jinky doesnt want to sign a new contract then there is nothing Gate or anyone else can do.
I would like to see him stay and help us get back up. I just hope we dont get another squad unsettling Jan all over again.
A good move would be to sell Johnson,with the provision of loaning him back
I am sure that Johno will leave at the end of the season whether or not we get promoted, Gate has messed him about too much. The best we can hope for is to give him a good wage to sign on and make promise like we did Downing that we will not stand in his way.at the end of season if he still wants to go. That way we all win.
Grove Hill Wallah
Didn't see the Soccer AM thing with Johnno - have to try to see if I can call it up under whatever the 'play again' mechanism is for Sky. Sounds a bit to me like the less-than-sainted Mandy Rice-Davies with her "Well, he would wouldn't he."
While we're on the epigrams let's try 'trust the art not the artist'. If Johnno's performances on the right are at the level they were last season and in the last two games of this season he's about 10% as effective as he is on the left.
If he's square-pegging himself, his manager ought to insist he knocks it off!
"If he's square-pegging himself, his manager ought to insist he knocks it off!"
Even if they're all agreed that it's the best interests of the team that he plays there to accommodate a particular line-up thought to be most effective against whatever the opposition is?
I don't suppose for even a second that Johnson is making up his own rules as he goes along. Southgate doesn't strike me as being one to tolerate too much from too many mavericks - even when being held to ransom on players' future loyalties.
Johnson is no different to most players. He's young and ambitious on two counts - sporting achievement and money (and not necessarily in that order!). He's had a great upbringing in the sport and shows some promise. He's far from being the finished article, but probably feels he won't achieve his full potential at Boro - especially since he's seen all that's been done an undone in his last few years at this particular club.
He'll know Boro's wage structure and the club's prospects and, like most everyone else in any line of work, will look to fast track through the ranks by-passing the hard stuff if he can make it. So why struggle for recognition at Championship rates when he could be struggling for greater recognition on much higher rates?
And Johnson's never struck me as being one short in self-esteem. He's always come across as a lad who's self-assessment has always been at a premium to that of others. So what's the big driver for him to stay - if there are likely to be other offers on the table from Premier League clubs prepared to offer him Premier League wages and take the risk on his potential being more than just that?
It's a bit of a "no brainer", is it not? He can always fall back down a league if he fails. He's young enough, and with his style of play, he's unlikely to incur serious impact injury!
Said it before - Should of sold Downing when the money was offered and had more trust in Johnson. That's not in hindsight!!
All this nonesense that he may not be up to PL level... , get him in a team with other quality players and see him shine and be an England regular!
I remember when not much faith was shown in Downing and he nearly went to the mackems very cheaply.
At the moment Johnson in a very average team and with a very average manager (being kind!) any team we play at the moment can double up on him, imagine if their were with players of equal ability in the team who could frighten defenders with skills and pace.
Like many times before Boro have been too late in sitting down and making players feel wanted!!
I don't have time to give the 49 paragraph piece on why we should try to keep AJ if we can (and also why I believe he will stay until the summer and then review his options, influenced by whether or not we are then in the PL). I will say only that I have this on the authority of my hairstylist ("Stop that undignified noise at the back!).
However, equally pressing is the fact that the National Blood Transfusion Service has been paying a visit, and draining some of the natives in my parish. I saw somebody hiding in the shadows when I came out. I think it must have been The Count, casing the joint to see if he could make a "withdrawal".
**AV writes: Well the nights are drawing in.
Johnson will leave in the summer, I have absolutely no doubt.
Whether he has squared pegged himself or not, his performance levels on the right touchline are abysmal at the moment, and quite frankly unless Southgate sorts it out and gets him back on the left both Boro and Johnson are going to struggle, particularly at home.
Although I accept that his worth to the team is probably more important this season than any previous season, he may as well not be on the park for the impact he is having at the moment.
I've personally always thought Jinky a bit of an enigma anyway and I still believe his performances elsewhere for England are what is putting him in other managers minds, not his (recent) performances for Boro.
He'll go, but hopefully he'll have helped us to at least a play off place.
**AV writes: I'm not sure where this in vogue 'Jonno is rubbish on the right' line has come from but he was devastating there at Sheff Wed. As he has been a few times.
Isn't his own productivity (and need to switch wings) directly related to how many men the opposition opt to stick on him to stifle him rather than his position?
Have I timed this post to get the magic 100?
Anyhow Johnson should sign an extension and he can load it with caveats such as promotion etc and then he would get a transfer fee. So I think he will be wise and sign up.
**AV writes: Miles wide. Its gone out for a throw.
**AV writes: I'm not sure where this in vogue 'Jonno is rubbish on the right' line has come from but he was devastating there at Sheff Wed. As he has been a few times.
Isn't his own productivity (and need to switch wings) directly related to how many men the opposition opt to stick on him to stifle him rather than his position?"
Careful AV!! You're in danger of leading the witnesses! (But a big "Well done!" all the same!)
This particular "law" ( or opinion stated so frequently as to become embedded in the psyche of those who read it - as in Huxley's "Brave New World") came from a couple of the frequent visitors/contributors here who are infrequent visitors/contributors to the Riverside, but follow the Boro to some "away" matches; people whose opinions are equal - but more equal than others (as in Orwell's "Animal Farm") and who, in their own way, have all the answers tactically and seemingly, according to them, unlike Gareth Southgate!
Leading the witnesses is an art form it would seem! It's a question of "knowing" your readership - or listeners. Ask Bernie Slaven - he's making a living out of it!
Richard Dawkins proposed the concept of "Memes" back in 1976 in "The Selfish Gene" and, more recently, the effects of memetic propagation have been illustrated in Gladwell's "The Tipping Point". It's a very real concept and one used to exploit the unwary or the susceptible and bend them to the will of the perpetrator. A bit like the darker side of NLP.
You can fool some of the people some of the time..........
If Digard is fit and returns into the team this weekend then I expect Johnson will be returning to the left as it probably means O'Neil gets pushed out to the right in order to leave Williams in the centre - or will Williams be dropped and Yeates retained since it's only Watford at home?
I'm sure Boro have already decided to keep Johnson until the end of the season as failing to gain promotion by a few points after selling him would need more than a few interviews with the gazette to convince the fans it was the right decision.
Having said that - What kind of offer would it take to persuade Boro to sell him in January?
AV
Johnno isnt rubbish on the right, as I posted before, Mendi14 said he was brilliant at Sheff Wed in that position. He is also brilliant on the left. Switching wings is ok and provides a different set of problems for defenders.
The evidence of my own eyes over 180 minutes of football in the last two games is that he poses more problems on the left. In the brief time he played in that position against Leicester he got to the bye line several times and put in crosses that troubled their defence.
He then went on the right where he played most of rest of that match and at Reading. Most of the time he was shepherded on to his left foot 30-40 yards out and if he got past the defender there was always another player drifted over to pick him up in a central area and if needed a third.
We got a few free kicks that came to nothing but never got the defence turned and going back towards their own goal. It compressed the space, he was always running into defenders facing up the pitch.
On the left, if he gets past his man and it is normally on the outside so the second defender has to go wide and is pulled out of the centre creating more space because players have to come out to meet him rather than waiting as he cuts into the middle towards them. If he beats his man on the inside he can still go wide again.
In either case he is pulling the ball across the box or even backwards which all defenders hate.
He can be double marked on either flank but the geometry gives a greater advantage on the left. If you dont believe me just get some paper and a pen and draw it out. If you want I will email a drawing to you!
The same argument can be used for many players. O'Neill may be good on the right but he is better in central midfield. Wheater can play right back but is better at centre half.
Jinky doesnt have to stay nailed to the left touchline, he is too talented for that but he causes so many problems out there that the variations should be that not the norm. Against poorer teams it wont matter so much but against the well organised teams it is playing into their hands.
A look at the games so far illustrate what I mean about the need to use every advantage.
(based on current positions)
Bottom half played 6 won 6.
Top half played 5 drawn 2 lost 3.
We need to take every opportunity possible to create space, compressing the play just plays into their hands. If you asked their coaches what they feared I am sure it is the thought of Jinky getting to the bye line and cutting the ball back. What they would like is to shepherd him into ambushes in towards the centre of the pitch.
PS
Werdermouth
Digard should have no influence on whether Johnson plays left.
Agree with Alan give him a contract extension on higher pay.With a get out clause if we dont go up.If we do go up and he still wants to go ie top six intrest then also let him go but we still get the fee we want as he is still under contract.
Win win that way dont you think.
On the Watford game i would love to see us take one of these teams to the cleaners 5 or 6.But alas a certain Mr Graham will be hear and no doubt will have some say in the result.
By all accounts Jinky had a poor game v Reading. But I don't believe this had anything to do with him playing on the right. I think he just looked a little tired and jaded and I would have said he didn't impose himself on the game as much as he can.
However, from that right position he did put in a wondeful ball straight to Lita, who on another day would have buried the chance. What I think we really have to ask is how do we want to use Johnson? As a winger to create or as a goal getter?
I suspect he prefers the right because it allows him to come inside and strike with his left. Cristiano Ronaldo frequently switched to the left for Utd for this reason; deadly cutting inside with his right boot.
What we all seem to forget is that we can't expect Johnson to tear up every opposition defence, every game. Whether he plays on the right or left, he isn't going to do that every game regardless. He has off days, defenders have good days and may get the better of him or the opposition may plan to shut him out.
We need to ensure he is just 1 of 11 and that we don't become predictable.
My favourite memory is my first. Walking to Ayrsome Park we passed a corner shop, and a young man came out. He had just bought a loaf (un sliced) of bread and proceeded to bite straight into it. Devouring the whole thing in 5mins as we walked behind. Immediately I knew football and the boro were for me.
As for Johnno, Bids of £5m plus in January will be hard to turn down, but it is unlikely he will want to go to the like of Bolton etc. If the big boys are interested in him in the summer, and don’t forget the new UEFA Champs league ruling on ‘home grown’ players he will look very attractive to some teams.
If we get promoted then he has done his job. He probably doesn’t want to be with a small prem club, but that might be his only options. Stay with a promoted Boro or move to an established Stoke? Who pays the biggest wages? Notts County!
Ian, I was assuming if Digard replaces Yeates then O'Neil plays on the right leaving Johnson to play on the left. I'm not aware of O'Neil playing left wing but you can never be sure where the pegs fit these days.
Still, we have little aerial threat in the box during open play should Johnson play left wing - which means pulling the ball back for the arriving midfielders.
Werdermouth
You do not need an aerial threat if he plays left or right but if he is coming off the right side the defenders can gobble the lofted ball down the middle a lot easier facing away from goal.
The ball pulled back gives smaller attackers a chance to get across defenders plus the oncoming midfielders.
John
There is no problem playing Jinky on the right in parts of games but not all the time. It makes it easier for the defence to be set up to channel him inside. Even if he goes the other way onto his right foot his end product is not that good as good yet as but it will come.
I come back to the fundamental points that defenders do not like turning, facing their own goal, being stretched or pace. However it is dressed up as cutting inside onto his shooting foot if on the right, the balance of the team is better suited to him playing on the left.
Good players can play anywhere. The aim is for the team to win. They haven't done too badly so far this season. How about playing him through the middle like Ronaldo did for Man U.
AV, The Sheff Wed game was one game, where I am sure Mr Laws would have been looking at his defenders and wondering why the hell they gave Jonno so much room.
I didn't say he was rubbish on the right, I said his performances were abysmal, you might equate that to mean the same thing, but in my eyes this means he is not doing himself or the team justice by the fact that his contribution to the team effort and impact on a game is somewhat diminished.
Jonno is best placed on the left, this is my honest opinion, not that of any other "perpetrator" on this blog, I am not siding with anyone, I don’t think I’m having my will bent in any way, and I’m not a tactical genius. I’m just a fan who thinks that Jonno is wasted on the right but fits the role on the left as an attacking winger, where he seems more adept at getting behind or turning opposition defences.
SmogOnTheTyne, I can almost hear Dvorjak's New World Symphony as you reminisce about your first trip to Ayresome Park behind the young man with the Hovis.
I always recall as a small boy hearing the roar of the crowd from our garden, which was about 10 minutes walk from the ground, and thinking it must be increbibly exciting to be there - though it was quite a few years before my dad took me to my
first game - it was 2-0 win against Everton.
**AV writes: I remember being totally gobsmacked by the frequency, volume and sheer creativity of the swearing!
By-the-way, has anybody taken that throw-in from Allan in Bahrain's earlier shot yet?
I must have made it this time.....?
My first match was against Hull in 1969 - I was amazed it was in colour as up until then I had only seen black and white matches on shoot or black and white photos ( or pink) in the Evening Gazette.
**AV writes: Get in ! It's there. Scambled home at the second attempt after a long throw from Werdermouth.
Rory Delap has got nowt on me as I've just managed to throw the ball from Bremen to Bahrain! - Anyway, a well timed run Allan but I think I'd better get an ice-pack for my shoulder before I read your new article AV - though I guess Dormo isn't going to be happy when he returns home from work with another salmon under his arm.
I would like to draw attention to the fitness level of AV. It seems to take a long time for him to put up a post, perhaps he is taking a rest between them. This lack of blog fitness enables late posters to cash in and claim injury time winners!
I expect I will be hauled up by the blog writers union for this.
**AV writes: It is not about 'fitness' it is about recovery time and specific training and preparation for the next one. There are three blogs a week in this league, it is a real grind so we have to be careful how we manage a small inexperienced squad of one.
You're dead right, Werder. 103 and sick! Some of have work to do, and then to make sure a nice plate of chicken with roasted vegetables is ready to be put before the lady of the house on her return (it doesn't pay to annoy her....).
I still had my tracksuit on. How about a recount? Is there no justice?
Neil (Yarm): Back from Ulsan then Neil?
I may agree with your point if it was viewed in isolation and without considering other factors like, "if the opposition snuff that particular threat out, by close marking for example, what alternative creative attacking options might we deploy and which of our other players ought to be present on the field of play to provide those options?".
Football is a team game - not a game centred on one individual and upon whom excessive reliance and expectation should be placed. Attacking options are something that Boro hasn't been well endowed with for a while now, so anything that brings goals has to be welcomed, surely?
The other thing that occurs to me is that Johnson on the left wing (to those of a conventional mindset, his strongest "position") will (probably) come up against a natural right back whose strongest suit will be to his left.
Playing Johnson on the right puts Johnson's stronger left foot in contention with the left-back opponent's weaker right when he breaks inside at pace. This can lead to several advantages through him getting away completely and stealing a shot at goal or distributing to someone better placed, or a late challenge gaining free-kicks around the box, or better, penalties. Free kicks in such positions are well-placed for his stronger left foot to curl with pace towards the goal into the box.
Incidentally Neil, I didn't have you in mind when I mentioned "perpetrators", but if you feel the cap fits in any way, who am I to tell you not to wear it?!
Richard,
I know you didn't mean me, but I always think of a perpetrator as a crimnal type for some reason, "the perp" in some of those US CSi shows. But nah, the cap definitely doesn't fit.
Richard,
Missed the first line of your post, yes back from Ulsan, now in Abu Dhabi. How did you know that?
Just for those of you who were wondering, the game was Boro 3 – 1 York City. I was also mightily impressed with the swearing but couldn’t get one non swear word out of my head, ‘Fisog’. Still makes me laugh to this day. On an unsavoury note are Wedermouth and AV sharing Ice baths to aid their recovery?
I hope I nab post 107, thats my lucky number, some say IQ