Gareth Takes A Swing At Critics
AND SO the pendulum swings back the other way - for a week at least - as schizophrenic Middlesbrough's metronomic season continues. The crucial win at Reading on a day when our chief promotion rivals all faltered helped Boro claw back lost ground in the table and earned the gaffer some political breathing space after a week of sustained fire had him on the ropes.
Some, but not much. Those with foam finger fume poisoning may well now feel vindicated for their brave stance against the midweek mob but the rusty bedsprings faction who hoped for defeat today won't go away. It was after all only Reading. And third is not an automatic spot. Nothing has changed. It is just double or quits carried forward onto the next game with a fortnight off to lick wounds, grind axes and generally simmer before things swing back their way.
I didn't go today, Big Phil T baggsied this one pre-season because it was a new ground for him. It was the first match I have missed since Wolves away in the FA Cup what seems like eons ago so naturally was listening to Ali and Gilly (isn't that a different experience from the polar opposites Punch and Judy show when Bernie was on?) while watching Jeff Stelling and the boys and following developments on here, Fly Me and the Beeb via the lap-top. So a bit of a busmans' holiday then.
[Incidentally I noticed there was a few people posting on the blog during the match... is there a viable audience for me trying live quip-by-quip coverage in some form?]
It was interesting to note after the game that Gareth resumed the high-risk assertive defence of his position that he had mounted in the Thursday pre-match presser. Then he had answered questions about the booing at the Leicester game by having a pop at the booing culture at the Riverside and dismissing the concept of "opinions without responsibility."
This time he edged towards a divide and rule strategy by bigging up the away fans. Now, the away fans have been magnificent this season and have impressed both in numbers and volume, of that there can be no question but it would be naive to think that Venn Diagram-wise there is no intersection between those hardy travelling hardcore of loyalists and the tetchy thousands who have roasted him at the Riverside.
Nevertheless, it suits his political ends to draw attention to the superb support away from home and the team's impressive results on the road in contrast to the more impatient, demanding and disgruntled home fans who he says have piled pressure on the team. After the game he said:
"We had incredible travelling support today. It's a hell of a long journey to come down here, I know we have a lot of support in the south but when you can reward that travelling support, that's great. We want to reward our home support as well and being together as a group is going to be crucial."
Asked why Boro have played with zest away from home but have struggled at home, Southgate said: "I don't know what to make of it if I'm honest. It's something that as club we've got to think about. We've got two important home games coming up and we've got to have the strength of character to win there."
That last phrase is the most important. It he wants to take the heat off the team and himself Boro MUST start winning at home. That the away fans have seen goals aplenty and a couple of superb performances is a fantastic reward for the miles and hours they put in but home turf is a far more important political constituency and the vast majority who only see the team at the Riverside have had to endure a grind against Sheffield United, the pummelling by West Brom and the purgatory of the first hour against Leicester need to be given compelling reasons to stay on side. Or at least not join the overt opposition.
After a bitter and damaging week in which Boro fans have marked out their territory, nailed their colours to the mast and been identifying and insulting members of the rival factions Southgate may have got a dig in - which is fair enough, his detractors have been free enough in making political capital from results - but he also added a note of sober reason to the debate.
"We were very professional about how we went about it and how calmly we played it out and we were solid as a team," he said. "But we won't get carried away with it, in the same way as we didn't with previous results. Other scores today show the topsy-turvy nature of this league."
Which is true. After battering Boro there were plenty on here who suggested that the engraver may as well get to work on the trophy that hey had already awarded to West Brom. Since then they have lost two and today could only draw. Boro, written off after the 5-0 gubbing, are now just a point behind them. Newcastle, still reeling at Jason Euell scoring in Blackpool's win have also drawn two in a row. Neither will run away with it. Boro are third, a point off an automatic spot and are averaging almost two points a game.
There is a long way to go yet. Boro's best chance of promotion is sticking together when things get sticky, as from time to time they will. But there is no point in appealing for unity on some abstract point of principle when the crowd are divided. The only way the fractured alliance can be kept together is by Boro continuing to win. Especially at home. Over to you lads....
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Anthony Vickers
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A good win. Well done! Early opinion in the "Pickled Parrot" was very positive. Radio Brownlee has rarely been more popular.
I agree with what I believe to be AV's point. The way to win over fans is for the team (and management) to do its stuff at the Riverside, where the vast majority of the supporters get to see team play and the club gets its gate money.
There is no point in trying to invent a divide between home and away support (a sizeable proportion of those going will probably be season ticket holders anyway). We ALL want Boro to win and do well, and hopefully get promotion.
The vast majority, I believe, still wants GS to prove a success off the field and the team a success on it. We want to go up together. Basically, if you do your job,. we (as supporters) will do ours.
Well done, again. Let's hope we can keep it up.
AV, we lament loss of Premiership access, but to put the Championship in perspective I just watched 'highligts' of last weeks Div 2 Accrington 5 v. Crewe 3. Almost old Northern League stuff, goalie howlers, almost non-existent defending. Almost every shot on target flying in the net. Great stuff for the locals (a decent 3000 it was reported) on a Friday night
John, Aus
Southgate can say what he likes, it's his actions he will be judged on.
Last night was a good win, and credit to him for at last realising where he is partially going wrong - playing too many defenders in the team.
He dropped Arca and put a real midfielder back in there. Up front he dropped the ineffective Emnes and started Lita. Hence we were more effective going forward. He still played Johnson on the right for most of the game, so that shows he's still got no effective Plan B. All you have to do regarding the doubling up on Johnson is to make sure that the freed up Boro players make use of the space.
The players, whether stung by criticism put a full shift in, and didn't concede any stupid late goals. Mind you, remember this was only Reading, a team which hadn't won at home since January. Normally just the sort of fixture that Boro don't turn up for. At least they did this time. Can they keep it up?
When is the last time I saw a Boro forward run nearly half the length of the pitch (maybe Sky News made it look better than it was) and bury the ball in the net. St. Ledger, could turn out to be GS's most astute signing.
The scenario always lent itself to Leroy scoring against his former club, but how many times have Boro followed the scenario and let a team, that hasn't won home or away, turn them over.
AV hits all the nails squarely on the head once again, last week became a bore with all that negativity I'm hoping for the best in the next two home games. Well done BORO
I will continue to voice my disgust at allowing bloggers to be credited with posts whilst a match is being played. I think we should have the bloggers split in the same way as the fans and have three separate sections for those that go to every match, those that post and go and those who post only.
Or you could credit posts for match attendees and as for your comment about me gallivanting about just because I went to Reading is not worth a response! Why should John Powls, Billy from Berks, Mendia4 - who we met in the pub afterwards - be penalised for attending the match.
What was the thread about, oh yes, the Boro.
Yesterday showed what we already knew. The Boro at full strength are better than most teams in this division. It showed us that O'Neil is a class act in central midfield, Johnson is a left winger, Yeates may be a decent right winger but he needs a run of games in his best position
St Ledger looks a good buy, Bennett is a good prospect but looks a little short as yet physically.
Lita is starting to show signs of being a good buy, he has brought some muscle and pace up front. He also showed some class to the Reading fans when he scored by only celebrating in front us and then just acknowledging them. He got a great response from them and was roundly applauded. I am quite impressed.
It also showed what I have commented upon before that we may be better away from home when teams have to come out and attack giving us the opportunity to attack with pace. At home there is less space and the better teams will be hard to break down especially if they are more robust.
And that sums up Gates problem. It is not the fans fault he was given the poison chalice but you cannot expect fans to be happy with relegation. On tuesday they were not abusive to the players and not overly riotous at full time.
We have played precious little attacking football at home since his tenure began and that is the fundamental problem. It has been rubbish and that is why people have walked away. They paid to watch some of the top players in the world whilst we played poorly in the top tier. Now they are largely getting poor football from us whilst the opposition is not electric.
My trip back from Reading was much better than that from the Leicester match. It is nothing to do with how good Southgate is as or will become as a manager.
Good football may win the fans back. Yesterday was fine in front of the Parmo Army but my eyebrows were still raised at Johnno continuing on the right and Yeates on the left for most of the first half. In the second we had Johnno right and the land crab left.
I will still raise those issues because Johnno was ineffective. Afterwards Mendi14 said he had been stellar in that position at Sheff Wed and maybe that is why he is being played there now.
For now lets take the win into the break and build confidence. It has done nothing to change my stance that I want Gate to succeed because I am a Boro fan but I have doubts from what I see on occasions on the pitch.
It certainly was a welcome victory at Reading for all concerned - though you're right that Southgate really needs to get the team to put in a couple of convincing home performances to give the Riverside faithful something to cheer.
It seems after initial good starts the relegated trio are beginning to stutter with Cardiff powering their way up and looking a real danger - so it is important we take advantage from relatively easy run of ten games.
When you look at Reading it highlights the real worry for clubs like ourselves by demonstrating what happens if a quick return to the PL fails to be grasped. All their best players have drifted away, the money is gone and they're starting from scratch once more in the hope of building a competitive new team.
As you know, being an overseas fan in the Championship gives us few options to follow the Boro - online text from the BBC is basic info punctuated by long pauses until with 15 minutes to go information seems to grind to a halt - so it would be definitely be interesting to see how a blog commentary-feedback session would work.
By the way excellent fan-labeling AV "Those with foam finger fume poisoning" versus "the rusty bedsprings faction".
**AV writes: We have a new toy that allows live blogging with real time audience interaction that updates immediately (as opposed to this system which can have a considerable delay). It would allow you to ask questions, make cutting comments and groan a bit and me to be informative and cynical and make those Boro-centric observations you just won't get on the BBC.
Licencing reasons mean it can be a blow-by-blow but it could be "match action" could be updated every six minutes, in between philosophical musings. There would still be a normal novella length match report posted soon after the game and would involve me working two keyboards simultaneously, a la Rick Wakeman in his bacofoil cape and Moog on iceskates period.
Anyone interested in such a facility?
What have Robert Louis Stevenson and Boro got in common ? Answer: Jekyll and Hyde.
Incredible how they can be so awful at home but fairly solid away from the Riverside. I can see why both the fans and GS are so frustrated. Conundrums abound, excellent support away from home with a cracking atmosphere, poor support at home with no atmosphere. Until the equallibrium balance is restored, this trend will continue.
Anyway, good to see Lita get on the scoresheet again. Just hope it is not a similar case of Aliadiere, only likes scoring against his old club....
Phew! was getting very nervous going into the last 10 minutes of the game, but well done for a good result. Wasn't it encouraging to see such a great goal from Lita?
The message coming out loud and clear (which I agree with) is that the home games are being played with a fear of making a mistake. The atmosphere is intimidating.
I think the success of this season rests in the hands of the home supporters. We need to create a positive, supportive atmosphere - not a destructive one. Regardless of what fans might think of the manager they need to do it for the team - without ulterior motives and hidden agendas.
It's also extremely arrogant to think that they are right and the people behind the scenes - who really know what's going on - are wrong.
AV
A favour, can you change somethings in my last post.
Replace the relevant sentance with
'They paid to watch some of the top players in the world whilst we played poorly in the top tier'
and in my reference to Billy from Berks and Mendi14 in the complaint about blogging that we met in the pub afterwards.
If it is too much trouble dont bother but I dont like to give wrong information, I am not a Skysports pundit.
Cheers
Ian
There is no point in the Boro getting promoted.
Southgate has proved over the last three years that he is a below standard manager, ( just look at the rubbish signings he has brought to the club) and Steve Gibson cannot afford to or will not supply the money needed for the club to be a reasonably successful Premier League Club should the Boro get promoted.
The whole thing is nothing but a waste of time and money.
I watched W B A v Preston the other night and as far as I can see they are no better or worse than us, certainly nowt to fear. If only we can cure the late late goals we are prone to leak, we should be there at the death, that and along with no changes for the sake of change. OOHH how I wish we had kept Catts.
You are, as always, largely right and incisive in all you say, AV, but let's deal with "It's only Reading" first, before it becomes a cliche.
Reading are almost directly comparable with us in that they are an ex-premiership team that has had to come to terms with falling out of the top division. We have, as they probably have, shed many of our overpaid mercenaries and yesterday we relied at the back and for half of the midfield in players who are Academy produced, and these players blotted them out.
That's SG's plan and yesterday it worked. That's a source of joy - hopefully to all Boro fans, including the people who feel that Gareth is not a great manager yet (and you're right that there are many of us diehards who see GS making some serious errors.
We also see him learning on the job. That was demonstrated by our strikers having some shots on target - and a lot off target - pre-match, learning from Nigel's team. Should we mock this? No, it is clearly useful as a pre-match drill. Lita hit some bad strikes then, but it may have helped him strike his second goals as true as he did).
It is time to stop the internecine rubbish - because turning on each other is completely futile; it is rubbish - but it also true to say that the lads LOVE being properly supported and really do appreciate it. Sean clapped us for ages after the match yesterday; Gareth was visibly moved by our vocal support for him, and you could tell even though we were a long way away from him.
Now only the away support can actually observe these facts - and they are facts, not delusions. That's why it's a stupid insult to call our faith "blind", because we who fully keep the faith, the Ayresome Angels, see more of our team tha people who only watch them on the pub's TV. That's a fact, not an insult. We're not blind to the mistakes our team makes, but we know they are young and they are human and they enjoy being loved and appreciated, as all humans do.
Let's have a bit of an amnesty on these boards. I, for one, have decided I'm not entering into any insulting behaviour. I know that a lot of the hurt we've had threatens to become rancour; we all understand that bitterness of disappointment, but I'm going to be as nice as Gareth, if I can.
I did start composing a little ditty along the lines of "You were my Boro, my once-loved Boro, you made me grumpy when skies were grey. You'll never know just quite how I love you. I moan lots and stay well away," but that's too mocking.
All together now! Come on Boro!
Southgate is right to hit back although he may be over reacting a little. On the scale of things the booing after the Leicester game was modest. Nevertheless, Southgate is entitled to be irritated
I don't know if all clubs carry a similar burden but the Boro seem to have such a lot of idiot fans. Here's something for them to reflect upon. What do they think the supporters of Southampton, Norwich, Charlton and Leeds, all clubs "who belong in the Premiership" would think about Boro fans berating a manager who has steered us to third place and one point away from an automatic promotion slot AND after having had to dispose of every valuable asset the club owned?
Southgate has proven himself this season and fans should stop whinging.
Gareth's noting of the club's strong southern support is valid and explains to a large degree the more vociferous and loyal nature of the travelling fan.
Yes, many Boro fans will commendably have made the trip to Reading but it would be interesting to see a breakdown of just where our 1,500 or so yesterday actually live. Middlesbrough Supporters South (MSS)boasts hundreds of members living around the M25 and there will be many more southern based Boro fans. Over the past 30 years and more, there has been a steady exodus/drain from the north-east to south-east.
This isn't primarily borne of a desire to seek out the bright lights of London, but has been largely out of economic necessity, particulary during the low points of the mid '80s.The net result is a sizeable hardcore of southern Boro loyalists who can't travel to every, or indeed many, home games.
They remain Boro through and through however and will grab the chance to attend every possible, local away match. Our games at Reading, Crystal palce, QPR etc this season will thus feature standout away support.
The away fans can only base their assessment of the team on the, very impressive so far, away matches and will of course get behind the team fully.
If you are not worn down the volume and bland nature of game after game at the Riverside, then you can only base your opinions on what you see, and so far this season, it's been great.
Also, it would take a lot of poor away games to create the urge to boo the Boro. These southern Boro fans retain a loyalty to the north-east in general and it would feel wrong to turn against the team, emotionally and practically.
I'm not sure attending away games only gives the fans the right to voice their displeasure against the regime. The particular games yes, but not everything that goes it with.
This is a lifetime's loyalty that has built up here and the distance, and lesser day to day involvement, makes it harder for the southern Boro fan to take a stand against the club and manager. It just goes against the grain.
The Boro fan living, working in Teeside and attending home games can make a more reasoned and pragmatic assesment of the club's situation. head and heart in essence. Down south, it can only be done primarily from the heart, hence the ongoing noisy and non judgemental support.
AV
I am taking my laptop everywhere so I can keep posting! Well, nearly everywhere.
Like the interactive posting idea, can we boo on line?
halifaxp
I agree we can do without name calling, nearly all fans are supportive of the club. My view is that I will comment on what I see on the pitch and do so here and not abuse the team or manager at the ground.
I wont abuse the manager here but will pose questions on what I see. For example, Phil Tallentire suggested the subbing of Yeates by bringing on Arca was baffling. Several of us have talked about Johnson being consigned to the right flank as being bizarre.
Southgate may think that is 'opinions without responsibilty'. I suppose quite a few people at MFC have lost their jobs due to the relegation, would it be in order to for them to say Southgate is 'managing without responsibity'?
You just have to be careful what you say.
Anyway, two weeks now whilst Ingerlund interfers with all things Boro.
AV, I am one of the overseas mob.
What you propose sounds like a real good idea, make it happen please.
I was away last week so I missed all the hoo-ha about the Leicester result. I managed to log on for 5 mins to see the result but didn't have time to read or get involved in the aftermath.
I had a bit of a catch up yesterday - what a miserable bunch, hurling around insults and getting involved in a meaningless discussion about whether we have the right manager. for 200+ posts...just incredible.
For the record, I'm still a Southgate supporter. I don't particularly like the 'ra-ra' label, though if I have to have a label better 'ra-ra' than 'bed-wetting' I suppose. I know I am in a minority of posters, but what do you do?
Given the reaction of fans after only a couple of bad results, I doubt that he will survive, but I hope he does. I sometimes wonder what will satisfy our fans. We whinged, bitched and moaned through McClaren's tenure, even though he was our most successful manager ever, delivering us a 'real' trophy, Europe, those fantasy quarter and semi finals and of course a European final, and we cheered from the rafters when he moved on.
I can't remember now what we didn't like about him, the style of football or his interviews, or his tie, or his smile, or his quotes or his haircut. Now Southgate is the target of our ire. I rather suspect if 'we' are successful in getting rid of him, in 2-3 years time the new manager (Strachan/ Pearson/ O'Leary/ insert own favourite here) will be getting the same treatment.
Of course it's not just Boro fans, it's a modern football phenonemon. I understand that our favourite 'missed opportunity' Martin O'Neill is not liked by Aston Villa fans despite providing them with 2 top 6 finishes (and buying Luke Young and Stewart Downing!!). Ho hum...I'll just leave it to those that know more about the game than me and support whoever is chosen.
Anyway, a routine 2-0 win yesterday should at least give you a quieter week this week AV. No goal-poaching for the 100th post required this week I think. 60 ot 70 at max I would think...and after reading some of last week's posts thank God for that!
Geoff Blonckeye-Watson:
You're right, of course. But if you adopt that outlook, why bother coming out of the womb in the first place? Is life something that is done to you? Or is it something that is there to be grasped and enjoyed while you have it?
I've fought fatalism now and again, but on balance, the good bits tend to outweigh the bad bits. It's about keeping a balanced outlook Geoff!
Read Kipling's "If".... Southgate's an almost perfect exemplar of its message.
Martin Narey, I suggest you change the phrase 'idiot fans' to 'long-suffering fans' and then you might be closer to the truth.
Southgate has NOT proved himself this season, in fact he's stuttering, and producing a misfiring ill-balanced team, like he has done for the previous three seasons.
See if your statement holds true at the end of this season.
Peterboroangel:
"It's also extremely arrogant to think that they are right and the people behind the scenes - who really know what's going on - are wrong."
Just arrogant or blinkered and daft as well?
That said, there are things the club could have done and could still be doing to keep the fans onside. Either the PR function at the club is poor - or there has been and remains a deliberate policy of witholding information from the public. Perhaps this is because the details of such information as may shed light on some decisions that are made that would be competitively sensitive - and that's understandable. However, the price that's paid is supporter disaffection with the club.
The best way to keep all shades of supporter onside is to score goals and to win, of course. But as we are all too aware, that's not always possible! So some kind of openness on strategic vision for the future would be helpful for people to align with and against which to place events and actions as they unfold.
Unfortunately, the many of the actions and events of last season didn't align with the strategic vision as painted by the club and, over the summer, after Gibson's May declarations on Radio Tees, didn't appear to be in alignment with that either.
That's why many season tickets weren't renewed and why there's been a huge amount of scepticism about whether to believe Gibson any more. That, and his laudible refusal to comply with the now traditional, boring and largely long-term ineffectual, football supporters' trigger-happy, knee-jerk response of "sack the manager" as the answer to every setback. Which, Peterboroangel, brings me back to agreement with your post.
Martin Narey said:
"Southgate has proven himself this season and fans should stop whinging."
That looks like tempting providence big time. Consider Reading, the team we beat yesterday, and who are now hovering just above the relegation zone.
On December 20th 2008, they were lying in an automatic promotion spot after an emphatic 3-1 away win at Birmingham. We all know what happens next. Coppell was unlucky, but sometimes that's what it comes down to.
People forget that we obtained automatic promotion in 1998 thanks to Ipswich beating Sunderland, an event over which Bryan Robson had no control. If we had gone into the playoffs, who knows what would have happened?
If we are in an automatic promotion spot next May, a statement like the above will be seen as uncontroversial. But not now.
Having said that, I was delighted by the win yesterday. Long may it continue. That is how Gareth will secure his position, not by developing paranoia and moaning endlessly to the press.
Yesterday Gareth showed some magnanimity in victory, he now needs to develop more dignity in defeat. Some of the fans, both supporters and critics of Southgate, need to develop both.
Hello all. A win for us and it's raining here! Well done boro . Now for some good home form please. I bet we don't get over 200 posts this week. Must be some kind of record AV?
**AV writes: Yes, that was a new high. although there were some frivolous multiple posts and outrageous showboating.
Gibson should drag Southgate in the office on monday and reem his you know what,he has absolutely no right to question the fans intelligence,some who have been paying out of their pockets for many years to support this club.
He is where he is because, I assume, the decisions he has made regarding this team and his players,by the way this league is awful,any manager with a little money to spend and an eye for a player should dance through this division. Can Mr Clean?
steve h said:
“Greedy and dishonest are not words I would use to describe Gareth Southgate. On the contrary.”
I didn't describe Gareth as being greedy and dishonest, but as possibly appearing greedy and dishonest. I'm in no position to assess his true character, and neither are you. Nor are the many journalists who trot out the words “decent and honourable” with such lazy abandon.
But, if you are saying he has never appeared to be greedy or dishonest, you are simply wrong. I will give you a few examples. There are others.
1. When he was relegated as captain of Crystal Palace in 1995, he did not choose to stay and fight for their return to the Premier League. Instead he opted for a lucrative transfer to Aston Villa.
2. In 2000, while captain of Aston Villa he submitted a transfer, which he left on the table for a year while remaining captain. He said “If I am to achieve in my career, it is time to move on”. Which overachieving club did he end up playing for after another lucrative transfer in 2001? Villa fans have consistently booed him for this. You might have thought we would be used to that experience by now.
3. In 2006, he accepted a job for which he knew he was unqualified, in the teeth of opposition from the League Managers Association, relying on Steve Gibson to square it with the Premier League.
**AV writes: All three of those are just in effect looking for new jobs, Surely it is not intrinsically greedy or dishonest to seek alternative employment?
A great win, and another great away trip for the loyal travelling Boro gypsies. The crunch comes in the next two games, both at The Riverside.
It is time for the fans to get behind the team from the off - I know it is hard when the team don't kick start it for us, but we need to start picking up points again at home. We have to be realistic. Teams are not going to come here and play lovely open football so that we can dance around them. As the Geordies have found in their last two home games, teams are going to make it as dour and negative as they can to try and pinch something.
Martin makes a decent point above re fans of other fallen clubs. I will never be convinced that Southgate is going to turn out to be a tremendous and successful manager, but he is delivering (so far) what he is required to do. And that is to keep us amongst the top 3 or 4 clubs to give us a chance of going up.
Stop worrying about what would happen if we do somehow go straight back up Geoff. Remember the reason you watch Boro. It's to allow yourself to dream a little. I don't want to spend the next few years with my nose pushed up against the glass peering into the Premiership. I want to us to get back there quickly and join in, no matter how difficult it is to stay in there.
I agree too that we should have some kind of an amnesty, without taking away the valuable and differing opinions that make this blog worth contributing to. We all have a common goal don't we? And that is the love of our club. Let's ALL get behind the team with renewed optimism after the enforced international break.
Ian Gill, hiya! For what it is worth, I agree that there was no clear reason for Julio replacing Yeatesy, and I totally agree with the necessity of questioning and debating seriously to keep our manager and our beloved club on the ball.
If we feel we are all in this together so far as our aims are concerned, then constructive criticism cannot be bad. Maybe (as long as the madness and bile disappears - you know, "O'Neil is average", "McMahon is no good", this kind of rubbish) that is the main virtue of AV's excellent forum.
Whatever else is true, Boro fans are unusually knowledgeable on the game we all love. So it's great to share it and, if we become as clueless as Chelsea fans, who measure players' worth by their price-tags, God help us! Then we've had it! We'll believe that Alves was better than Tom Craddock or something!! Anyone who thinks Gareth isn't interested in constructive criticism is, frankly, a bit foolish, to say the least.
And hiya also to Richard Evans. In Reading there were a lot of people we Smoggies on Tour don't always see at matches but they are all so welcome and so passionate and such true Boro lads and lasses.
For all that our support was (as usual) excellent, it was not as quick and vocal actually in joining in with chants as at Sheff Wed or Coventry (or Scunthorpe, I'm told, tho I missed that one) and so that looked like a lack of match-practice! Still, early days yet. We'll see you all at Crystal Palace, and no doubt you'll get into it quicker next time!
Still, we were brilliant enough to move our lads to improved commitment and performance and that is what we need, not least at the Riverside.
I'm feeling funny at the home matches, because I usually end up a bit voice-sore at the away matches, but find it quite a self-conscious business to start giving it some in the Lower West stand, where I have my season ticket. (I just love the view, but often wish I was in 51B!)
Any suggestions would be helpful on how we can make supporters be more vocal on the "come on Boro"s and less vocal on the "Southgate you're (something less than complimentary)", which started (I timed it) on 8 minutes into the Leicester match. This is a shamefully Library/Highbury-type area of our spiritual home.
If you hear a crazed lone voice pouring his heart out for the lads against Watford next time out, don't look at me as if I'm odd, please: I'll just have decided it's the main point of being there and I will need support in my belief that it's the other 98% who re behaving oddly!!! So, please, help me out with giving it some yourselves, West Standers.
Boro till I die!
Peterborough Angel and Richard
'It's also extremely arrogant to think that they are right and the people behind the scenes - who really know what's going on - are wrong.'
Last season when we were struggling at Xmas many on this board said that if we were not careful we would go down. We were not behind the scenes but the people behind the scenes didnt see it coming. But of course they really knew what was going on. They must live in a parallel universe where we are 4th top of the premiership and not in the championship.
To be fair I have always said I dont know what is going on behind the scenes, football or business wise. I can only comment on what I see.
From what I see, whilst we have a full squad we will be too good for most teams in the championship. That is the division we are playing in because the people behind the scenes knew more than we did.
I firmly believe that even those who think that Gareth is useless, and I am defintely one of them, enjoy Boro winning. It was a good result and a great goal from Lita.
There does however appear to be a bit of a myth being perpetrated here. Suddenly it is OUR fault that the team have been rubbish at home. We are putting undue pressure on them by quickly getting on the players backs. This is garbage.
The crowd at the Riverside have been very supportive during the Southgate era, demonstrating, in my opinion, commendable patience and good humour. Most of those who are unhappy with what they have watched have usually left before the final whistle and therefore the booing at the end of games has been generally pretty tame.
These are highly paid professionals playing in front of their own supporters. The overwhelming majority of people in the staduim want them to win for goodness sake, what is so difficult about that?
If the manager and players use that as an excuse it is a total disgrace.
Tactically it is different, clearly. We have to make the play at home and find our way through teams happy to sit back and defend and it is a failure to be able to do that and a total lack of spirit when going behind that has been the issue.
Gareth is clearly staying for the foreseeable future. There are two very winnable home games coming up, but for me, as I have said on here before, it is the important home games, Newcastle, Cardiff et al that he needs to start winning if he is to ever convince. Pity we have to wait a fortnight for the next installment.
I think Southgoat is a magician: he made us disappear from the Premier League . Wish I had the spell to make him disappear!
I don't think Gate is trying to divide the fans - there is a difference at away games, the home team have to get forward and we are better on the break.
There is a lot of negativity at the riverside which you dont get away and I have been annoyed before at how quickly some fans start getting on our own players backs at home. I would once again recommend the away experience to everyone.
Ron - Lita's goal was better live in the stadium than on the TV, he properly muscled and ran through their back four from the half way line and slotted our second in style. With that in his locker he should be left up field giving us an option to break out when we are defending deep as if we do win possession there is no out ball.
St.Ledger played very well and is a good signing along with Lita , Gate has been under the cosh for bad signings but they are not bad at all.
I too thought Johnson maybe should have been on the left but to be fair he was not at his best yesterday anyway.
Gary O'Neil was man of the match by miles and was everywhere and very composed too making good passes and calming things down when we seemed to be giving the ball away too much.
Mcmahon had a good match as did Aliadiere who nearly scored twice. Not sure about williams in the middle or Bennet at left back though they were chasing shadows .Digard or walker in the middle next to O'Neil and Pogger surely will be a decent left back in this division as we need him for more experience too.
At the end as the Boro fans sung for Southgate to give us a wave and were cheering when he did the previous events at the Riverside seemed to be to a different team and fans.
"AV, I am one of the overseas mob. What you propose sounds like a real good idea, make it happen please."
I'll second that.
"If" does fit perfectly for Gareth. Here's Mike Bassett's version. It makes the hairs on my arms stand up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TNtU0_0_c
Mythbuster:
"People forget that we obtained automatic promotion in 1998 thanks to Ipswich beating Sunderland, an event over which Bryan Robson had no control. If we had gone into the playoffs, who knows what would have happened?"
I haven't forgotten, in fact I think I've repeatedly mentioned that game here before.
Difficult to forget that we were clear at the top of the league and in a cup final at the end of February, and it took just over a month - and one away point in five matches - for us to slip four points behind second-placed Sunderland.
That they eventually threw it back in our hands can be put down to (a) our stronger squad and (b) the Black Cats possibly allowing complacency to set in once they'd established a seemingly healthy lead over us.
Newcastle and WBA have done the same thing this season...those heavy away wins (4-0 for Toon at Ipswich, the now infamous Riverside rout) may yet work in our favour, as results since have shown that neither side is as sure to gain promotion as they think they are.
Of course, neither are we - but then neither is everyone else.
Re: the Reading game, I'm very happy with the result. Happiest most of all for St. Ledger (his one sin in fans' eyes is that he's not Rob Huth, I think - get over it!), Brad Jones (a clean sheet for him, at last!), and of course Gareth. Still worried about our weak midfield, especially when Arca plays. How has he become such a liability since Dwight Yorke hacked him off the pitch more than two years ago?
**AV writes:
"All three of those are just in effect looking for new jobs, Surely it is not intrinsically greedy or dishonest to seek alternative employment?"
No, it isn't. But honesty should mean that you don't apply for employment for which you are unqualified, and you don't deceive your current employers about why you are seeking alternative employment.
The LMA complained bitterly about Southgate's employment, and Villa fans certainly believe that Gareth was not honest about his reasons for leaving.
I agree that the lack of any moral compass in modern professional football means that such things are considered acceptable, and even routine. But do you think that makes them honest dealing?
And the culture of greed is endemic amongst both players and management in professional football. I agree that Gareth has probably been no worse than most of his colleagues, but do you think that greed is good?
You yourself have criticised Steve McClaren for what you saw as duplicity in his dealings with Steve Gibson. But was he really doing anything different from what has become the norm in professional football?
**AV writes: I'm not sure you are right about the Villa situation. Southgate put in a transfer request and was very close to moving to Chelsea when Villa pulled the plug but he didn't sulk, didn't stomp his feet and didn't put in half-hearted performances in the manner of today's wantaways.
In fact he played for a full season and was pretty much an ever-present and played well enough to get back into the England squad and earn a £6m move to Boro and while no doubt some fans still resent his departure (leaving is after all a crime) most appear to think he conducted himself in the correct manner.
And to be honest, I'm not sure that applying for a job you are not qualified for is in any way morally suspect. We are not talking about medicine. I think large areas of British industry are run by perfectly competent if not superbly able people who do not technically have "the exams". I can see how you can construct an argument he should not have been offered the job on grounds of ability but not morality.
But you are right that football is pretty shameless and grasping as a whole.
It's pretty simple to me. The team plays better when the fans get behind them. Therefore, you'd have to be daft not to get behind them, if you want them to win.
It's not just about booing at the end. The atmosphere at the start is often very quiet - we need some noise. I'm sure this contributes to our often drab first half performances. It can't be just me that notices the tempo increases as the noise does.
Yes, of course the players should be able to motivate themselves, but when the fans can obviously play a big part, why withdraw this help? The only team that will help is the opposition.
Great win yesterday, two home games to come now I believe.
An away win against a team that hasn't won at home since January is hardly something to get carried away sniffing the foam over. Conversely if we hadn't won the "Typical Boro" jibes about letting teams end winless records against us would be the main topic again. Fortunately we came away with 3 points and Gareth’s short-term memory gives him ammunition until after the International break.
If he seriously wants to win over the home fans then he needs to start showing the appetite to win games rather than the fear factor we have suffered for 3 years.
This means that Emnes is not a project and that a Manager with 3 years experience is no longer “learning lessons” but is confident in his own ability to dissect and destroy his opponents.
That he can make effective substitutions that change the shape of games and most importantly attacks the opposition on our own turf rather than defend too deep and in the last ten minutes we actually take the game to them or at least take the ball out to their corner flags and run down the clock.
It means we threaten teams at home by leaving two players up the pitch on the half way line during their corners so we can catch them on the break and force them to leave two or three players up there with them meaning our box is less cluttered and chaotic. No more “Rabbits in Headlamps” from the minute of running onto the pitch.
If the home fans see ambition, belief and desire then we will be behind the Team and Gareth. If we see what we have witnessed for the last 3 years plus bearing in mind this seasons Sheff Utd game with one shot on target allied to the Baggies tearing us apart and former League 1 side Leicester taking all 3 points while suffering what felt like the worst 70 minutes in footballing memory.
Records like a run of away defeats and the lowest goals scored in Britain during a season allied to a hapless, clueless and hopeless attempt at Premiership survival do not disappear with one away win.
Standing up for his players against incompetent Officials (contrast with Fergie's comments about Alan Wiley being unfit to referee because he didn't know that at Old Trafford you have to play until Utd score a winner) instead of looking meek and lost, c'mon Gareth get sent to the stands, it winds the support up and fires up your own players, just wait till the roof lifts off and watch the outcome, more importantly watch what happens in the ensuing next few matches when 50/50 decisions are made!
This season to date has seen more lessons still being learned and quite frankly we are sick to death of hearing the “lessons learnt” tripe as a cover up for plain bad coaching, organisation and management.
The Booing abuse started 3 years after being stifled for most of that time while the team we have followed for decades before Gareth arrived and will continue to follow long after his departure has slid away in front of our eyes while having to endure the likes of Dong Gook Lee, and others who quite frankly should never have been allowed in the stadium never mind the pitch.
Not all of the blame lies at Gareth’s door, we are all only too much aware of that, but ultimately the only thing that matters is what happens out on the Riverside pitch and for a very long time now I have been spreading better quality on my garden. Lets hope that the wonderful travelling fans (who had to endure Gareth setting a club record last season of away defeats) can be as upbeat at our next home game because if we see another Leicester type performance I doubt 1,500 will "out shout" the 15,000 bedwetters!
halifaxp
Correct, getting behind the team is the most important thing.
On this thread, and anyone, please correct if you think I am wrong, my concern is that people separate constructive criticism and concern from bile.
I don't think that people at MFC are the spawn of the devil. They have made lots of mistakes and got us relegated. They have left some people with a loss of income be it at the Riverside or in support industries.
It is only a game unless it is your income. It isnt my income but there will be some struggling without the MFC related finances.
Most of us want Boro to win, we are miffed if we dont. Even when we played at Manu and Liverpool we hoped that we would get something.
But splitting off those fans who question tactics whilst still going and supporting is counter productive. (halifaxp my comments are not aimed at you personally).
Gates comments have been unhelpful.
It reminds me of Andrew Caddick in West Indies. For younger and non cricketers he has big ears. A local reporter wrote an article along the lines of 'Caddick running in to bowl against the wind with his ears flapping against the breeze.
Caddick complained and demanded an apology. The journalist agreed and promptly wrote 'I apologise for Caddick having big ears'
Blaming the fans rarely works. The bit of booing at home reflects the football. I suspect most on this board who are vehemently against Southgate dont go to matches. I dont denigrate their rights and views. Play rubbish and you will get an adverse reaction be you Boro or ManU or Barcelona.
PS AV please email the next milestone.
Another one from the hinterland AV - please give the live match coverage a test run!
Good win at Reading, shame the international break will prevent an immediate response at home from both the team and the support.
As I posted on the previous blog, no.196'ish, just before the start of the match - our varying opinions on the manager and club can still be debated but we should all still pull in the same direction when it comes to the games.
Kev B/halifaxp good posts. Do you think it is possible to create a hostile atmosphere for visiting teams/fans at the Riverside whilst giving the team full support rain or shine?
So brisbane phil (1.49pm Sunday) thinks we won't get 200 posts this time. Oh yes we will!
Oh no, we won't! (Because, as the saying goes, The Count "is behind you").
Dormo -
Oh no we won't - (well panto season is almost upon us!!)
Great win on Saturday long may it continue.
As for the away support as always been top draw can you all remember last season how many games without a win probably similar the season before guys enjoy it while its there you deserve it.
When Boro win how about Gareth getting into the middle and getting the old celebration going it worked when he was skipper. Or is that not done by the Manager.
AV yes please on the new idea maybe us expats can become part of the 12th man with this. How to win at home more difficult with our setup but with Lita and a stronger midfield maybe Pogi in back four with make a diff.
The board are full of constructive criticism at the moment, and if anyone at the club minds this, then they are cutting off something which can only help the club, because, as I said, Boro fans know the game far better than many other teams.
I often go on the Metro back from Man Utd games to Altincham where I park and it's hilarious sometimes listening to them dissecting performances as if they were watching dance performances!
Ian G, the only thing I think is harmful is the volume of sheerly abusive comments from the stands, "Southgate, you're s****!" being a very common one. This does not and cannot help anyone except the shouter, perhaps, to relieve personal stress.
I do not deny that you have every right to yell at the team when they are sloppy, and any pro footballer who expects to be treated with kid gloves will end up not being tough enough to be a good pro. A bunch of us pre-Leicester were highly critical in the Navi about the way the Coventry lead was squandered. Quite rightly.
But we need to remember that these lads are still young and will get fired up by proper support at home, as they do at away matches. And there is a bit of a fear factor, though I'm far from saying that this is an excuse, and I don't think it's fair to say that Gareth has actually ever used it as such.
Despite the fact that it's become a bit of a joke, they do also need to learn many lessons. The Championship is very different from the Premiership, and they have to learn to adapt to the challenges it poses. (The ball's in the air much more, as a very simple example, and getting it down to feet and turning sharply so you get some space to make good decisions about what to do with it. We need to work on that, on shooting straight and many other things.
Gareth is not wrong to say we need to learn lessons, although I don't expect him to do so much from here on.) Anyway, like I said, we're all in this together and the boards sound more like that than they have in the recent past, which is great.
Come on Boro!
It looks like the project to turn Boro into an Irish theme club is set to continue with reports that we are about to sign central defender Andy O'Brien on loan.
Does this then mean that due-to-return Pogi is being ear-marked for left-back? Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to get another central defender on loan. Though, hopefully we may also be looking to bring in a big centre-forward during the international break - unless of course the free scoring St Ledger is being touted.
Perhaps having no big man up front might explain why Jinky and Yeates are playing on their opposite wings - afterall who is there to get on the end of crosses at the moment? I guess until said striker arrives then cutting inside is a better option - though this then makes them more predictable.
At last the footballing gods begin to reveal their poker hands. ‘Royal’Flush. A returning player to an old stomping ground. Easily beats Reading’s Full House of no home wins and Boro come to town.
However with Danny Graham in fine form it will be interesting to see what hand we play in a couple of weeks time.
I think I forgot to mention after the Coventry game how good the away fans sounded on the radio and Saturday was no difference. Just hope I can join in with some EIO’ing at Preston in a couple of weeks.
AV as for live text updates I’m not a fan. During the heat of battle I’m too engrossed and active to take any sense of perspective. After a couple of hours in a darkened room I like to emerge, dodge Strictly Come X Factor and throw my self head first into reports, analysis and reaction be it players, mangers or fans.
However for those out side radio transmission I can see it being a useful match day tool. If I feel remote from the action and only 40 miles from Teesside I think those further a field may well like to feel part of something during the match.
Ernie; can't agree with your first sentence in reply to my Friday post but what the hell, life goes on.
Score more; you better not disappear mate - what'll I do for banter! I suppose what the last week shows is the depth of feeling for the club, what it means to us all and what it stands for. It's ironic how upset people get when it's 'under attack' either from within (by Gates tactics, late goals conceded/ no shows) or from disgruntled fans.
Either way it provokes a volley of passionate feeling in defence of The Boro rather than the organisation that is MFC. I agree with halifaxp on fans attitudes being influenced by where they live. Being a south coast dweller, I don't tolerate anyone denegrating my team or my town down here. My Teesside roots are more important to me now that I am 'exiled' and that even extends to sporting a 'natty' line in Boro tops since Errea started catering for us big lads (Adidas take note).
I have real doubts about Southgate but remain desperate for him, and indeed any manager of my club to succeed. I'm used to us being crap so the past 10 years or so have been halcyon days for me.
Anyway, nice to feel a little love in the air on here today. Gareth, you can help here by figuring out; (1) how to play against packed midfields at The Riverside (2) how to motivate a team to work their backsides of and concentrate for 90 odd minutes.
Over to you....
When it comes to breaking down defensive teams at home, I could be being naive here, but why not try a more attacking formation? We often have four defenders being mainly redundant, as they are often against one forward and the two wide midfielders are being used mainly for defence.
We also need to get our full-backs overlapping more, hopefully Joe Bennett will do this more - he receieved a few groans against Leiecester when getting forward and trying some (admittedly very ambitious) efforts on goal, but at least he was getting forward.
**AV writes: I think there is an argument for a 3-5-2 but then it become about personnel. Would you play Johnson as a left wing-back for instance?
AV
Should I save this for later? Am I near 20,000 yet? What the hell! As St Ledger would say - it is more important for the team to win than individual glory. Who gets the 20,000 isnt important, reaching the target is the team goal, we are all in it together (unless the Count disapproves)
Werdermouth
Getting my Premiership Manager handbook out, I think swapping wings makes the need for a big man even more imperative. When the winger has to turn inside he ends up crossing to defenders facing the ball and strikers our size will struggle.
If the wingers or any player can get somewhere near the byeline and pull it across the goal, or even back away from the goal, then it makes it very difficult for defenders facing their own goal and agile attackers can benefit.
By tucking inside you also compress the space as the defender can tuck in himself. Even if Johnno or Yeates get past the man the next midfielder/defender is still so much closer to the rest of the defence.
If they play on the correct flanks then go past the full back, the next defender has to come out of the middle to a position a lot closer to the touchline creating space.
The other problem is that in theory the wrong flank winger compresses space and stifles attacks. Several times on Saturday there wingers got the runs on us because they skipped past Yeates and Johnno trying to tackle with the wrong foor and then were fre to run at the fullbacks. Luckily they were not very effective.
No problem with swapping over for 10-15 minutes to set a different problem for defenders but square pegging so deliberately appears almost perverse.
Any where near AV?
**AV Writes: I told you, after looking at the panel with flashing lights and whizzy things, the next landmark has been upgraded to 35,000 and we should be there in the next fortnight or so. Until then you need to forget about headlines and concentrate on your own game.
I believe the reason we seem to do so well away and badly at home is the same reason we struggled last year and generally what we have been moaning about the whole time: that Gareth has set us up and brought players in to match his style of play - pacy counterattacking football, which seems to work fine when you are away from home in this league. We have the skill to sit back and outplay teams at their places, hitting them on the break quickly when we can, and it has produced results.
At home though, when teams come to sit back, defend and battle like Leicester did, and to some extent Sheff Utd, we have no idea what to do. We do not keep a large amount of possession at home considering our supposed higher skill level, and other than pass it to Johnno, we are out of ideas, which is exactly the same as last season just replacing "Johnno" with "Downing".
We have no plan B, and at home we need plan B to be plan A with us having the majority of possession and attacks. The lack of ideas and inability to change the game through lack of players or lack of coaching ability / knowledge worries me, as does the fact that really, nothing much has changed from last season other than our budget and position.
We identified in the summer that we needed leaders on the pitch, more experienced heads that were up for a fight, and brought none in, some may say that matches GS desire to not want / be unable to manage strong personalities at the club, and that's what leaders are - strong personalities.
His other failings also seem to stem from the nice guy persona too - the ability to be led from above, and allow himself to be put into positions that other managers wouldn't accept, which some might describe as being a puppet or a PR face.
Following that line of thought brings us more to the conclusion that it is really Keith Lamb that has not learned his lessons, not GS, and that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and that the fans aren't gullible enough to accept what they hear in PR radio interviews if they do not match what is happening on the pitch, whether it is Keith Lamb, GS or SG saying the words.
So assuming that we are for the short term at least limited by budget in what we can do in regards to both the manager and the performances and look at the cheap simple fixes we can put in place: We need another big forward who can hold up the ball and attacking reinforcements for midfield, both on loan until January. Alongside this we need a new attacking coach with decent tactical experience. Neither of these would require huge expense.
Longer term we need GS to either grow a larger set of Kahunas to stand up more to senior management & players with stronger personalities, and also come up with a plan B & C that the team are capable of playing to, or we need to bring in someone else who can do these things. I'd like it to be GS, but I'm not so hopeful it is in his nature that he would be capable of dropping the nice guy act. Would you disagree with any of the above AV?
**AV writes: I certainly think you are right in your analysis of the home/away tactical conundrum and that we need a new striker. I still think we need a quality midfielder with expereince and leadership qualities too.
''Gareth, you can help here by figuring out; (1) how to play against packed midfields at The Riverside (2) how to motivate a team to work their backsides of and concentrate for 90 odd minutes.''
Well said, but Southgate is oblivious to what is obvious to the rest of us. As consistanly proven during the last three years. I do not expect him to act now.....
In the meantime I hope the players continue to motivate themselves. As Lita did at the weekend.
Redcar Red- spot on !
As I said earlier no need to panic. We need to give 100 % support to the team (including the manager). I suppose GS has passed the 10 game test now. Let's hope we will still be up there as the game nr 20 is approaching.
The table does not lie. Again it shows where we are. Boro are third and only one point behind WBA. Great - let's enjoy that for a fortnight.
Also people like to see GON in central midfield. Ok then GS needs to play someone on the right wing - sometime Jonno, sometime Yaetes. Perhaps he is looking for some variations before opposition teams are marking Jonno with two men?
Up the Boro!
AV, add my name to the list supporting your idea of a real-time match-time blog.
Can only get South for the occasional game and even in the Premiership the real-time coverage Boro would get from the national media was always scant. I enjoy the blogs the Guardian does for the cricket and for "big" matches, so maybe something along those lines might be fun.
As for the Gareth Southgate question. I'm beginning to find the debate becoming unbearably retentive. Several have tried posting on here that it is time to put that particular debate back on the shelf only to be rebuffed by the (almost exclusively) "Gate-Out" camp, that of course we all support the Boro and of course we are entitled to our opinions and of course that's exactly what this forum is about, allowing us to express our opinions.
The problem is if you have an opinion and all that you do with it is to re-state it, or re-word it, or re-package it, or re-justify it, or re-type it, or re-anything it ....then it is in danger of becoming irritating or even annoying. Its just like a small child repeatedly asking for the same thing, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, despite being told no every time.
No one who follows this blog is in any doubt about the genuine and heart-felt opinions of all of the major contributors and long may they have the freedom to be able to express those opinions. However, time gentlemen please, on using every debate about a match or a managerial decision as further justification for the need to remove the manager.
The powers that decide at MFC have made it abundantly clear, they are backing Gate. Can we all just now accept that is the reality for now and start to have opinions and debates about the team and the match without having to personalise it around the manager all the time.
As it stands today, we are 3rd in the Championship and to (overwhelmingly) most neutral observers, that looks like we are still a more than good bet for promotion.
How about we leave the Gate-Debate behind us until some time in the future when it may (or may not) look like the wheels have well and truly fallen off (if they do fall off and I for one don't see that happening just yet).
We are now approaching the 12 match checkpoint and averaging only just under 2 points a game. Come on guys, this is good. Twenty-five years ago there wouldn't have been any such ingrained pessimism had we been 3rd on the old 2nd Division. The town (and fans from wherever they are) would be right behind the team (which includes the management).
Over the next two months, that is exactly what is needed, to be unanimously behind the team and management, and to be that 12th man at the Riverside that will help to turn the tide on the run of poor displays at home. COB
AV writes:
"I think large areas of British industry are run by perfectly competent if not superbly able people who do not technically have 'the exams'. I can see how you can construct an argument he should not have been offered the job on grounds of ability but not morality."
That sounds like a call to abandon qualifications for all jobs other than, perhaps, medicine. But would you like to fly on an airline that used on-the-job training for its pilots, or employ a builder who had no proper training? I suspect not, and many fans are similarly not happy with a football club that employs unqualified managers.
Qualifications are designed to indicate that the applicant may have the "ability" to do the job without extensive training.
I agree that the lack of morality in this case does not not all rest with the employee, it largely rests with the employer. But Gareth could have said "No, I'm not ready for this". That would have been honest.
The opinion of the supporters was, as usual, ignored. Many, like me, did not approve of what Gibson did in appointing Southgate, and still do not. That is not due any personal dislike of Gareth, most people like him, only to his lack of qualifications for the job. For his own part, Gareth has amply proved the point that on-the-job training is never successful when the employee is required to perform from day one.
However, as Gareth would say, "we are where we are", and I'm willing to wait and see what the results of three years' on-the-job training can achieve this season.
AV, What’s the story with Josh Walker. Has he not been included as GS knew he would be away with the U20’s? Will he become a regular member of the playing squad on his return? Also we seem to have produced three competent left backs out of the academy, any sign of a forward?
Also does Sean St Ledger have the biggest face of the current Boro squad?
A good win Saturday....
The simple reason we win away and not at home is: We are a counter attacking side, away from home the home team feels obliged to attack us.
At the Riverside most teams sit back and try to hit us on the break. Until Boro can learn to start the game at 3pm and attck the opposition from the start we will continue to struggle at the Riverside.
Having a midfield player that can play a decent through ball would also help.
C'Mon Boro!
@ 'Ignorant' of boroland
It's interest how you thought that McMahon had a good game and Bennett was chasing shadows. I felt quite the opposite. I thought Bennett was outstanding and closed his man down well, whereas McMahon was always 10 yards away with no sense of urgency and looked to be our weakest link. I took a friend who isn't that familiar with our players and he picked out young Bennett as one that impressed him.
Interesting to hear the interview with Lita on the Boro website. He said he thought the booing of Southgate was a little harsh and said that it is the players who didn't perform vs Leicester and didn't do their jobs. He said that we all want to do well for Southgate, the club and the fans.
So far, regardless of anything that has gone on, the players all seem to be together in this and if that continues we might just see some better performances.
With a quarter of the season gone Boro are third, one point off an automatic promotion spot. This is usually taken as the first bench mark of the season and I would argue that pre-season most Boro fans would have settled for that position. Its not perfect as clearly the aim needs to be a top two spot at the end of the season, but its a sound position at this point.
Yet, despite that we have a manager who despite having a succesful season to date is being vilified and constantly booed and verbally abused at home games. Many of those reponsible claim this is okay as its directed at the manager and not the team, what a load of old tosh.
If a Boro player hears booing during a home game do you think he stops to work out at whom the booing is directed? Of course not, the impact of the booing is simple, it gives the away team a boost and an emotional kick in the teeth to the home team.
A situation has now been created where by the Boro are petrified of going a goal down at home because of the crowds reaction if and when it happens. How would we all be feeling if Boro's record to date was reversed and it stood as Home: W4 D1 L1 and Away: W2 D1 L2? Most of us would be delighted would we not?
Still we are not unique, Newcastle were booed on Saturday because they 'only' drew, yet there they are 11 games in, four points clear of third and top of the table. There is no pleasing some people.
Mythbuster and I dont agree on much I suspect, but the appointment of an inexperienced manager in GS we do agree was a mistake; that said he would have been a fool to turn down such a golden opportunity. The responsibility for that decision lies squarely with the Chairman.
I knew my 'arrogant' comment would get a response. Let me say that I am a long way from universally agreeing with the way the club is handled. I just know that the punter generally has no idea of what is going on behind the scenes. This is why good PR is so important. At Boro it's rubbish!
I gave up my season ticket 3 years ago because I thought I could see what was coming. As it turned out I was right.
One thing I will never forget is the treatment over ticket allocation for big, all ticket matches in the past. Particularly when I couldn't get a ticket for a game which wasn't full to capacity, yet I had been told it was sold out. That was the straw that broke the camels back.
In contrast, we all have to remember the good times during the past decade and the memories they've given us. Boro getting to a European final? I still find that difficult to believe.
good big lad to go for LAMBERT FROM SOUTHAMTON think £2 mill for him give them a £1 mill profit will get goals and bring best out of Lita .
Ian Gill at 12.07am - shame on you! Thnking of the 20,000 glory! And now it's been upgraded to 35,000. I think you will find Richard, myself and the Bremen Bomber will be thinking entirely of football issues in the next couple of weeks (wink, wink).
AV, not that easy this lyric lark but perhaps this one by The Banshees paints a picture of the service offered by your blog.
This is the happy house - we're happy here
in the happy house - oh it's such fun
We've come to play in the happy house
and waste a day in the happy house - it never rains
We've come to scream in the happy house
We're in a dream in the happy house
We're all quite sane this is the happy house - we're happy here
There's room for you if you say "I do"
but don't say no or you'll have to go
We've done no wrong with our blinkers on
It's safe and calm if you sing along
This is the happy house - we're happy here in the happy house
To forget ourselves - and pretend all's well
There is no hell.
**AV writes: *Old punk alert....* Pretty much every track off the first few Banshees albums captures the bleak angst and futility of Boro fandom perfectly.
How about Premature Burial from Join Hands....
Clawing from the inside
Drowning in your chant
Thoughts come flooding through me
Despairing unity
The unchanged and the unchangeable
Doing the zombierama
Singing Oh come and be like me,
We're all sisters and brothers
Red and white incarnations
Can't intoxicate my brain
This blissful suffocation
It is driving me to pain
Oh what a bloody shame
Anyone else? Maybe you know an obscure Gang of Four/Joy Division lyric that captures the contradictions of the current situation? Surely the Smiths have written an album's worth.
Werdermouth - Andy O'Brian is from Harrogate, probably lives next door to GS. Strangely he has a big nose, high forehead and plays centre-back. Maybe GS sees something in him,... like a mirror for example.
Smog on, don't know about biggest face, but its one the scariest since Pollock.
My Mrs thinks ali is the looker of the team. My mam had a soft spot for Willie Falconer. What do other readers think?
What a difference a day makes eh?
For what it's worth I supported Robbo at Sheff Weds, Boxing Day 98 season, when the boo boys started chanting for his head. I supported McClaren, he was after all the most successful manager in the clubs history.
Now I give my loyal support to the present incumbent, GS, because as a player he would sweat blood for Boro. As a mananger, I agree that some times he baffles me, but he is learning and by god he has guts, he keeps the faith while the noisy minority that want him out, just as they did with Robbo and McClaren, and will do the same to the next man too.
I despair some times, GS loves this club and whatever his failings, as Boro fans we should be voicing our support for the TEAM during matches and then maybe the lads will relax a little at home, who knows, they might even win a few more matches.
WHOEVER manages my team deserves, and will have, my support. That's not to say I am happy with relegation or watching a team for 45 minutes instead of 90, but while they're out there trying, I will give my support and encouragement as a true fan should.
I urge ALL Boro fans to support their team through thick and thin and save their anger for the pub later, and sites such as this. C'mon Boro fans, let's start singing from the same page for once.
Boro Til I Die.
On the 'big lad up front' to replace the fallen Folan, I refer the honourable gentlemen (and ladies) to my previous answer - Leon Best from Coventry.
And I was saying this before (boo hoo!) he notched and assisted against Boro and before he was Championship player of the month.
To sick as a parrot,
You are absolutely right we need to play like two teams one for the home games and one for the away. If it is so clear to us why not GS? This is a brutal league and we should attack with all out aggression at home - the crowd expect nothing less.
Forever Dormo
It will be interesting as the 35,000 approaches to find what to post about with no match and us showing better form at Reading.
AV
You will have to be on your mettle as people find the most improbable of links to Boro to get a post on the blog.
You will find Dormo talking about the fact he was going to paint his skirting board in red but his wife wont allow it, Werdermouth about the fact some team in the Bundesliga wearing the same strip as Boro.
Borophil that he now has a Southgate mullet and is going into hospital for a nose job. Richard about the technology that makes the synthetic fibre for our shirts and the impact it's transportation has on Bulkhaul's operations.
I am relying on to make sure that all is fair. I will not resort to tenuous links to white vans!
(come closer, shh! any nearer?)
Andy (hants) said
"Ernest Oglesby; you do make me laugh. Are you really as old as you appear? Band wagon rider eh? It appears to me that you fit effortlessly into that category, swelling the ranks of the 'lynch mob majority'. Then you start flexing your muscles and hurling insults around. Oh, and your running with the Tories 'coz there's more of them now.
Get a grip old son; think about the blood pressure. Can't be good for a chap of your age, can it? "Failure to panic", that did make me laugh out loud! So we need to panic then? Always a good course of action in times of crisis!
The wonderful world of Ernie; here's to the next exciting installment......."
Andy, as you will see from that paste, you accused me of hurling insults around whereas I was in fact merely responding to insults. Big difference. Whether intended as humour or not, your post did get my back up.
We are all individuals, and have individual opinions. Not all of us are going to agree on certain points. If anyone disagrees with mine, they are quite welcome to argue their corner, and I'll argue mine. May the best man win.
Perhaps the opening verse from my favourite Joy Division track, Decades, reflects the pressure that our young team are under at home - interchanged with the angst of our long suffering supporters - not to mention the conundrum of whether to switch wings or not.
Here are the young men, the weight on their shoulders,
Here are the young men, well where have they been?
We knocked on the doors of Hell's darker chamber,
Pushed to the limit, we dragged ourselves in,
Watched from the wings as the scenes were replaying,
We saw ourselves now as we never had seen.
Portrayal of the trauma and degeneration,
The sorrows we suffered and never were free.
**AV writes: When it comes to Joy Division surely there is a gaping open goal that even Lee Dong Gook with Ricketts and Alves on his back would bury....
When routine bites hard,
And ambitions are low,
And resentment rides high,
But emotions won't grow,
And we're changing our ways,
Taking different roads.
Then love, love will tear us apart again.
Love, love will tear us apart again.
ChrisMarton has obviously been trawling through his 70’s and 80’s punk and post-punk cassettes for enlightenment. Particularly relevant, since they come from the golden age when fans didn’t criticise football clubs or their management.
But here’s an extract from a recent Killers’ offering, “The world we live in”, which reflects our grittier modern era. Can you guess who this reminds me of?
I gotta believe it's worth it,
Without a victory,
I'm so sanctified and free,
Well maybe I'm just mistaken.
Lesson learned,
And the wheels keep turning.
This is the world that we live in,
I can't take blame for two,
This is the world that we live in,
And maybe we'll make it through.
AV: Referring to your response to Werdermouth at 9:38AM - Do we have a friendly with CSKA Moscow this weekend, or something?
Who or what is Joy Division, anyway? Is it a hopeful reference to the Championship?
Stimpson: "It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
From the John Cleese film, Clockwise.
Maybe you've inadvertently found a replacement for Pigbag there AV - though health & safety considerations would demand that the dangers of papercuts around the wrist area whilst watching Boro and listening to Joy Division are prominently displayed on the cover of the matchday programme
Ernie, I accused you of hurling insults. I refer you to;
"Do yourself a favour. Go to the nearest asylum and have yourself committed". (To Boro Phil October 1, 2009 5:50 PM). Also, according to you, I have the "memory span of a goldfish" and am "myopic".
I stand by my comments; you were more 'sinner' than 'sinned against'. My post was meant to do exactly that Ernie; make you think!! Initially, I was merely reading posts, not intending to contribute. Yours were the only ones that made me think 'this fella's over-stepped the mark' and so I interjected in a manner that I knew would illicit a response, and it did.
Banter I like; Scoredraw is a top man for that. You come across exactly as I said. If I'm wrong I'll doff my cap and walk on by, however if the cap fits... T
his blog is great for prompting debate and passion, but it does no harm to let folk know when they appear a little 'exciteable'. Perhaps we wont bother with Christmas cards this year, eh Ernie?
**AV writes: "there's a few personal battles going on out there all over the pitch today... "
Of course, there's that famous hit of the 70s ....
"Up the Boro,
The Boro's going up,
The Boro's going up to stay, hey ......"
Quip by quip commentary AW? Yes please, for those of us stranded on the continent a bit of common sense and satire would not go amiss. No doubt your subtle wit and humour would be lost on my German colleagues, but it would entertain me greatly.
Great blog this week AV with lots of common sense thrown around. The most astute was Richard's Kipling comment... spot on regarding GS.
When he got the top job I was all for it. He seemed to have us playing good football after the negative stuff dished up by McClaren.Then it all went wrong for him and I along with most others started to lose faith but he kept his head when all around were,,,,This got me thinking a lot of what went wrong was not all his fault.
Even the most anti Southgate mob would have to agree the rub of the green just didnt go our way in a lot of crucial moments: pens not given, non-pens given against us and so forth and so on. He kept his cool throughout all this when
the rest of us wondered why, not even a show of frustration.
All this with no wise old head to guide him and show him the ropes, no super stars, the likes of which Robbo and mr Magnificent had and no money to throw around to speak of - discounting the panic buy of Alves.
It takes a tradesman 5 years to learn his trade and he was thrown in to the top job with no help. So after much thought I am prepared to give him the benefit of the
doubt, even though his subs have me scratching my head and team selections (square pegging) baffle me he is doing his best with a very young and inexperienced side. I hope and pray he will succeed.
Phil ex Warrenby:
Excellent build on the Kipling link. A good "big picture" analysis of the situation in which Southgate found himself and his conduct throughout.
THAT is why I stand by him (despite him "apparently" making some mistakes) and I still maintain that, in other circumstances, he WILL be a great football manager - provided he doesn't get sickened off the whole idea by the reactions of what are - or have become - "typical" football supporters seeking to lay blame on a single source, even when it's abundantly clear that the situation is far more complex than could possibly be resolved by a dangerously naive "change the manager" remedy!
Hey lads, if these lyrics continue to flood in, we'll have to put The Samaritans on overtime. I'm just glad we got a good result at Reading as, otherwise, all the sharp knives would have to be stored away, and all the upstairs windows locked.
To paraphrase Marvin the Paranoid Android (I won't bother to look it up): "The first season was bad, the next ten were worse, and for the next century it went steadily downhill from there. Brain the size of a planet and I end up supporting the Boro. Where did I go wrong?"
Been away for a few days. A nice win at Reading seems to have dispersed the vultures for a while, however the comments regarding GS and his playing players out of position are a problem that may come back and prove costly.
As long as GON is playing we should be OK, a big CF would be nice as well as another midfielder... Josh Walker anyone? Lita and co will score goals mainly because this league is pants but if we bottle the big games against the mags WBA and possibly Cardiff I would like us to smack a load of goals in against the rest to get our GD up.
Southgate is a disgrace attacking the fans. They pay his wages, he is a man of straw if he accepts the situation at the Riverside re selling players etc (see a certain Kevin Keegan late of NUFC) and then blames the fans for the results. Roll on the next game I might even go!
Oh what about the Saw Doctors!! To win just once .. that would be enough!!
"To Win just once
That would be enough
So come all ye fulltime smalltown heroes
Cast away your inbred fears
of standing out from all the rest
The cynics and the pessimists
The self-indulgent almost rich
The blatant hurlers on the pitch
Time is passing so come on
face the ball .. the game is on!"
And I could quote a million Dylan lyrics!!
AV, surely Robert Smith captured the true essence of the South Terrace when he penned "Plainsong (Chicken Run Reprise)" after one of his many visits to Ayresome in search of inspiration.
"I think it's dark and it looks like rain" you said
"And the wind is blowing like it's the end of the world" you said
"And it's so cold it's like the cold if you were dead" and then you smiled for a second
"I think i'm old and i'm in pain" you said
"And it's all running out like it's the end of the world" you said
"And it's so cold it's like the cold if you were dead" and then you smiled for a second
Sometimes you make me feel like i'm living at the edge of the world
Like i'm living at the edge of the world
"It's just the way i smile" you said
Richard said:
"Kipling's "If".... Southgate's an almost perfect exemplar of its message."
Sure you don't mean Lindsay Anderson's "If..."?
Re Forever Dormo at 8.55
Maybe SG has replaced Gate's brain with an electronic one programmed to say 'What?' "I don't understand' and 'lessons to be learnt' and who'd notice the difference?
AV - great idea for the second by second (hour by hour?) coverage - us hard working saturday types at Trinity Tower need something to occupy us - It's all a bit Prembackbenchtastic otherwise..
Andy (hants), those comments of mine were in response to being classed with other Southgate detractors as a bedwetting panic merchant, just because I am far from happy with Southgate's performance as manager.
I've been unhappy with it since his appointment. It's nothing new. Neither is the venom that the ra-ra's throw around aimed at anyone who doesn't give the blind loyalty that Steve Gibson asks for.
As I pointed out, this season has started similar to last, with a few good results followed by a slide. Too many people sat back and did nothing last year as the slide built momentum, eventually leading to relegation.
No one is too good to go down. I would have hoped Boro learnt that lesson last year.
Xmas? Bah, Humbug! All xmas is good for is the traditional Boro slump. Xmas should be cancelled.
AV
Looked to see where the old gazette star ratings are on the site. Must admit I havent seen them for a while.
**AV writes: I have asked. We will get on to it.
Sorry, no songs - but I am on my old refrain of possible loaners. This time midfielders.
What about the up and coming in the better Prem squads? If Messrs Gibbo & The Count can hold their noses, there is a very handy central midfielder at The Scousers, Jay Spearing. He gets a game now and again in European or Carling Cup games and is often on their bench in The Prem.
The ManUre equivalent is Darron Gibson. Either would be worth a punt.
Much though I appreciated Bolo in the old 'Bolo role' for Boro that has never really been replaced, I don't think bringing him back now is an answer. Leave him training with The Mackems.
Did someone mention Zenden...........?
No, I agree with John, never a good idea for a player to return, anyway he's a pensioner looking for a prem. club daft enough to boost his pension pot.
I don't think he'd do for Boro now what Merson or Townsend did before.
JP, I'm not sure if the relationship between Boro and Liverpool precludes any business taking place between the clubs.
In fact I'm not even sure that Southgate is contemplating bringing in a central midfielder - he seems to be happy with his quartet of O'Neil, Williams, hopefully fit again Digard and crowd favourite Arca.
It seems getting a "short-term replacement" for the short-term Forlorn is what he's pondering - not to mention the chance of adding another defender in the shape of O'Brien to his collection.
Though hopefully we get someone who's going to make a difference on the pitch rather than just the bench - also we can forget about Zenden as I believe he's after PL wages.
Ernie:
Xmas is OK because last year Boro didnt have a post Xmas slump. For the first time Gate was proactive and ahead of the game, the slump started late November, well in time for the festivities.
So just enjoy your Turkey and a stuffing on Boxing Day. No, cant see us losing to Scunnie so forget the stuffing.
We may talk to the Scousers now that Rick Parry is no longer peddling their deals though to be fair we have problems with poaching before his tenure at Liverpool.
The best holding midfielder I have seen in this league is Mulumbu at West Brom. He monstered us at the Riverside. Digard could do that job if we can get him fit and disciplined in his play, he also has a good range of passing to complement O'Neil's all round game.
We have to keep Gary O'Neil central to our plans be it positionally or in terms of responsibility. Make sure things revolve around him so we can hopefully keep him here rather than joining a lower middling premiership side.
The big problem we have is the absence of either of them. Williams is coping well and with O'Neil fit he can sit and hold. When O'Neil is absent then we lack the tools to drive forward especially against the stronger sides.
Would premiership clubs loan out players to sit on our bench rather than sometimes sit on theirs? The ones we would tend to get are those on the fringe of the squads and would be looking to play every week. They are also unlikely to have the experience we are looking for.
I suspect the key will be if we can get Digard onto the pitch with some regularity and he got more match time under his belt last night. If we do, will he deliver? I think he will.
At the back I am happy with what we have once Riggott and/or Pogo come back into the fold. Another centre back will only have Gate square pegging to get him on the pitch just as we are trying to forge a new partnership in Wheats and St Ledger.
Greetings from Australia (Sydney) from a long time reader and very long time fan.
Everyone has clearly pointed out the need for a different approach at home and the need to throw more people forward. AV - you suggested a possible 3-5-2 as a way to achieve this. Can I suggest that a better solution may be to stick with the 4-4-2 but look to playing the diamond formation.
The holding position could be played by Williams, Digard or Josh Walker and that would free GON to play at the apex where he could do the most damage. With Johnno and one of Emnes, Yeates, Aliadiere etc wide and the two full backs marauding forward either inside or outside of the two wide players there would actually be a possible six man midfield to outplay the opposing block and options available in all directions.
I see someone's started a "Lyrics Game" here! Yeah, Richard, "If" was an excellent choice. It's probably one of the best poems ever written.
However, I'd like to bring your attention to "The Good Fight" by Hope Of The States. It was originally used in a video to sum up the second half of 2005/06, but in a way I think it's timeless. Probably because of the lyrics.
Here's a link to that video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKsr6DVRmFQ
If only we could sort out our home from we could possibly run away with this league!
Currently an away table would show us top of the league - Played 6 won 4 drawn 1 lost 1 Points 13. However an away table would posistion us in a very lowely 16th - Played 5 won 2 drawn 1 lost 2 Points 7.
Sadly the Barcode zebras are 3rd and 1st respectively, GS and MFC really need to sort it out, it's a real shame that the Riverside can't create the buzz and excitment of an away day. Maybe we should get the gypsies back to remove a curse or something!!
(Table info from http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/championship/2009-2010/league-tables/away-record.html)
Regarding the three at the back debate - I think this system is usually more trouble than it's worth.
Not only do you have to spend time coaching a different mindset for the defenders, it can also create confusion with the players - plus if you're running low on centre-backs through injury and suspensions then you will inevertably end up reverting to playing four at the back.
A better option would be to encourage Wheater or Ledger to make the odd canter up-field to surprise the opposition and gain an extra man.
**AV writes: Or use the Ledge as a "sweeper", stepping up to join midfield and plug the gaps when more creative engine room operatives get forward to join the attack.
Hmmm, it's probabably getting to that time in the blog when I should be generous and try an audacious assist for Dormo, Ian or Richard by sending over a floated cross (or did he really mean the shot?).
We better not get beat by Scunny, I banking on a win for my birthday this year.
Sorry to bang on about this but has anyone else seen the photo of ‘Ledge’ after his ‘goal’ on Saturday. He’s being chased by Wheater and the smile on his face makes his fisog look huge. Tremendous. I can’t find that photo can any one help?
I notice we are now talking of ways to improve our home form so I am going to be really revolutionary.
1. Get the players to start on time and not leave early.
2. Midfield. Play them in their best positions wherever possible. Johnno left side, Yeates right side, O'Neil central, Digard/Williams holding. It is something we havent done for a variety of reasons in the last couple of matches, not all under Gates control.
3. Up front Lita and Aliadiere.
4. Defence looks after itself.
Simples!
PS could ditch zonal marking as well.
At home 4-4-2 would be better used with someone like Emnes/Yeates behind a front two. Emnes to me is more of an attacking midfielder than a striker. It would mean having a disciplined holding midfielder possibly Digard. This could be a plan B, plan C could be 4-3-3 with a central striker.
Whatever the formation GS needs to develop a number of plans to change games - otherwise we will keep losing at home.
We still need more options upfront and in central midfield - I doubt we will sign anyone January though, unless others are sold.
Two abhorrent results at home (WBA & Leicester) where we should have expected a minimum of 4 points that would have us top of the league.
Once of a time, in the recent past, The Riverside was quite a daunting place to visit for a lot of teams. That was when the crowd would really get behind the team and the crowd never gave up, even on the most obviously of lost causes.
Who will ever forget the Steau match, which we had absolutely no right to win? A big part of why we went on to win that night was the absolutely intimidating atmosphere in the ground. You could see the belief draining out of the Steaua team as the game wore on.
There is, I suppose, a little of the chicken and egg about the atmosphere in a ground. What comes first, the excitement and encouraging atmosphere to inspire the team, or the inspiring performance of the team that begets the excitement and encouraging atmosphere in the crowd?
Once the cycle has been entered, that is the team being daunted by its own home crowd, then the home crowd is going to be less likely to be instinctively supportive and will wait for the team to generate that excitement. So then, the crowd is generally flat and the team is more easily put on edge and so the cycle will continue.
What I am saying is that if the crowd doesn’t believe the team will win, then that is more likely than not to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the crowd has belief that the team will win, then that is more likely than not going to be the outcome.
Two ways of looking at this, that we shall all stand by and wait to be given the thrilling, exciting, enticing performance to respond to, or we collectively generate the excitement and belief that will liberate the team to deliver good results at home.
I know where I stand on this one, my glass is invariably half full. I do believe that continued negative debate about our (actually healthy) league position, and about the slump having started now just like last year etc (despite a thoroughly convincing 2-0 win at Reading on the back of two home defeats) is going to badly affect the atmosphere in the ground and consequently make bad home results more likely.
Come on guys, (Ian Gill and Ernie and others), stop waiting for the slump. It is more than likely to happen because you expect it to. Try living for the day and enjoying what we have at the moment. Try believing we are going to win out (home as well as away) this season and we will win this league.
Powmill
I am not waiting for a slump. I dont want one and I dont like taking a whole Saturday out to not enjoy myself and spend £60+ into the bargain and watch tosh. Or even worse get back gone midnight.
I actually enjoyed going to Reading and Scunnie a lot more than the Baggies and Leicester matches because of the way we played.
I will always comment on what I see on the pitch. I may come up with some ideas about doing things differntly, whether I am right or wrong, that is what this medium is all about. That is where it stays. Debate.
Just because I am confused about what Gate is doing with Johnno doesnt mean I want us to lose. Because I make a joke about Xmas doesnt mean I look for the nearest bridge if Boro win.
I want Gate to succeed because if he doesnt we will be in a mess. Not because I love Gate, Gibson and the Count but because I am a Boro fan who gives 110% at the ground.
The Boro look a lot better with O'Neill in the middle and wingers on the correct flanks. Is that heresy? I could say we were brilliant against West Brom. Would that be better? Maybe we should airbrush the game out of history.
Do not confuse wanting us to be the best we can with wanting us to lose. The board is only a bit of banter, hopefully not too serious, that stays exactly that. There is no room for booing and abuse at the ground, no room for not supporting the team.
We have a winner!
I belileve it's Powmill's Milestone! Powmill wins the big ton-up with a stunning an uncontrived entry! A good post and worthy of this thread's Centurion status!
See, class tells! No triviality, No connivance. No dithering in the box. Just great timing and pure class. It's a big lesson for the vacuous wannabees! I must try that sometime!
Richard said "It's a big lesson for the vacuous wannabees!"
I will learn from this. However I am only young and I will look at my performance. But at times like this we have to stick together. But I am big enough to take any stick coming my way. The defining moment of this blog had to be Forever Dormo 4/10/9 1.21AM. The first posts are so important in this blog, it sets the tone. The response from the rest of the lads was Magnificent and together we move on.
Anyone got the flying goose video?
I'd just done with posting my very long - and hopefully balanced if not foam handed -contribution to the 'forward looking' debate on Boro Banter when I came across something that confounds one element of it.
Apparently, Mr. Southgate has decided that he's not looking for another loan striker AND that Folan is staying - despite the fact that most of his loan is probably going to be spent in the treatment room and that he could be returned to Hull before long.
I can see the first part of the argument - just - on the grounds that Steve Agnew outlines:- Lita's getting match fit and getting goals so we've got three strikers.
Even that means that we are satisfied to have three similar strikers without the option of the big lad up front that there was near unanimity we needed.
Even if you thought Folan was what we needed anyway - and nothing in his history suggests he is - then you're taking a big gamble on an injury that is notoriously difficult to recover from and where relapses - sometimes multiple relapses - are common. And that's before you throw Crockliffe into the equation!
Steve Agnew seems to be saying that this is the gamble that the Manager and backroom staff are preparing to take on the grounds that 'the injury might not be as bad as everyone said it was after the scans and the specialist and Folan's a good healer'.
I can't, honestly, see what would be lost by Folan going back to Hull and Boro looking elsewhere - unless there's something punitive or restrictive about the loan contract with option that we've signed. There surely can't be.
He'd barely played or trained with Boro and it can't be claimed he's a settled and integrated squad member so no minor investment that has been made there is worth hanging on to him for. He will be back at square one when he's fit again anyway.
Folan's a pro so he must have been expecting to go back to Hull and there would be nothing stopping Boro going back in January and reviving the interest. I can't see there being any ill feeling, but in any event why would that really matter?
It's clear that Hull will still want to move him on - that won't change - and I can't see a queue of suitors for his signature around the KC whenever he's fit.
I'm struggling here. Can anyone assist with the logic of this decision?
John
Cant help with the logic but there are some revealing stats that at age 27/28 Folan has played less than 200 games. When I revealed those figures before I didn't really delve into his injury record so I cant comment on his healing ability.
Owen has been hamstrung for several years and they do seem difficult to clear up. We will just have to wait and see.
Richard, it was an accident honest. I didn't even look at the number of posts until after I'd submitted. There have been some good threads in this blog, so here's to the next 100 before AV thinks of something new to start us off on again.....
Ian (Gill) not having a go, just referring the sense of what I was saying back to recent posts. I did say "more likely than not" to win if the general tenor of the home crowd is positive, which is not the same as saying we will win. So of course I don't pretend that WBA, or Cardiff for that matter, didn't happen.
As fans I think that (collectively) we shouldn't start to let setbacks like these take us over so we fail to recognise the real success a genuinely local club like ours has enjoyed over recent years.
I enjoy reasoned comments about how we play and what might work better, a great deal of what gets posted in here makes great sense as well as being interesting. If we play like a bag of manure, then that is how we all should see it.
But maybe I am challenging the "Typical Boro" syndrome. We get one or two bad results (and some howlers over the years for sure) and then it is all talk of doom and gloom. We just (well a significant lot of us) just can’t help ourselves for expecting the worst. Who was on here a little earlier (was it Ernie, ? sorry if it wasn’t, but I can’t remember without scrolling back) equating last season’s dreadful race to the Championship after a positive start to this season to this season’s bright start and a couple of bad results that has “no one’s immune from relegation” warnings all over it?
That’s the mentality I’m challenging and I think that that mentality sometimes takes over the hearts of enough people to have, overall, a negative impact on the atmosphere not only on this blog, but also on into the ground.
We may have been a small town in Europe, but that’s no excuse for a small town mentality. If I smile at people I meet, even though I feel awful, then people will smile back at me. If I scowl at them because I feel awful, they will either scowl back or just ignore me. So, I choose to try to smile, no matter how I’m feeling inside. The same for a football crowd – if they are greatly enthusiastic and right behind the team, the team will respond positively.
I'm always prepared to be positive, when or should I say if, I see a balanced team selection: no square pegs, no defenders played in midfield, and two effective strikers played up front. Doesn't happen too often ;-)
Coyne
McMahon, Wheater, St Ledger, Bennet
Yeats, O'Neill, Digard, Johnson
Lita, ?????
This is where it falls down, as we don't have a second effective striker unless we use Franks. Emnes and Aliadiere aren't that effective. Digard can't be guaranteed to stay fit.
John Powls ... Do you not think that Boro have already agreed to make the deal permanent in January hence why Folan is not being shipped back to Hull?
I know we cannot send him back within 28 days of his loan agreement but as you rightly say Boro are keeping hold of him. When the first rumours started coming out about some clubs looking at Folan Phil Brown said that he would only be interested in a loan deal if it was to be made a permanent transfer in January, also Southgate has said that he was only interested in loan players that he could sign in January.
We all know that Boro have paid Preston a sizeable amount of money which is part of making his permanent transfer go through in January so may be the same has happened with Folan.If so I think the club have made a big mistake.
It's all very well for you lot of revellers, celebrating the competition for the big 100, but I get home from work after a hard day at the coalface (figuratively speaking) to find 104 on the board already. Haven't you got jobs to go to?
Unfortunately no time to read the last batch of posts as I've got to tend the oak smoked salmon I've just put in the oven. I'll have to save the blog for later. If it's not ready to eat when she gets home, there'll be trouble....
It's all go for the modern football supporter.
We still need a big lad up front who can score goals. We only have one striker LITA. Emnes / Aliadiere are not strikers. As i said in the past Vokes or Lambert will fit the bill and get the best out of Lita and maybe Gibson from Man U in c/m, but not another c/b like OBRIEN
FD: Blogging AND a job??? Are you Superman? How do your find the time? Or should that be "Thyme" to go with your oak smoked salmon? Not just FD - Emnes FD? Eh,FD?
You should take a leaf out of this guy's book - come on man! Get your priorities sorted!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbn-jiN6b_E
Forever Dormo
After being criticised by Comrade AV of the MFC Staszi for gallivanting about following the Boro instead of revelling in the glorious achievements of Comrade Lambs Hurworth centre for advanced sporting science I think I will keep posting when I can. This may result in the Mrs 'Sue Watson' Doyle award for pointless PR, second class. Remember? 'Sit down. Sit down, sit down, sit down.
I have a cunning plan that even Bill Baldrick (aka Beswick) couldnt dream up. Come closer, theres more. What about posting on AV's old blogs. I did a dummy run and got one through without being spotted. Shhhhhhhh, dont tell Richard or Werdermouth!
In the words of Aleksandr. Simples! Lets hope Sergei isnt working on the server.
Interesting to read Mendie's last days at Boro, also the way he has embraced the area. Wouldnt it be an advantage to the club to use him in some kind of capacity.to maybe help new signings ,who come from other cultures, settle in. I wonder who was behind the idea of just pushing him out
**AV writes: Who would burn bridges with such abandon I wonder?
Ian
If you're right then, yes - the club have made a big mistake in my view too.
Talking of 'burning bridges' and 'cunning plans' - It appears Folan has executed both in order to make it very difficult for 'nice guy' Gareth to send him back to Hull.
In reaction to Phil Brown's negative remarks about his attitude towards training, he reportedly said to the Daily Star "If he wants to come out with stupid comments like that then just let him be"
In the article he also said "It’s laughable, to me. I laughed when I first heard of it. My first reaction was to laugh because it was so pathetic. It’s very strange because it’s a good set-up there [Hull] but I just think they’re not being managed in the right way."
Personally, I think what would be more laughable is a film of their first meeting if Boro decided to cancel the loan deal after all.
**AV writes: Yes, it would be an instant YouTube classic.
Re: Powmill October 7, 2009 2:04 PM
Great post. I also believe in thinking positively. The crowd must be won over at home. We can hope luckily getting a goal early on - or have the crowd urging the players on from the first minute. The latter is something the supporters can help with!
As we are just one point behind WBA the next two home games look exiting. Six points are possible - I hope the home supporters notice that! Also Digard is again OK after playing 90 min for reserves this week. So the team should be very strong - and the bench, too!
Up the Boro!
We have our own example of a player extracting the urine, of course but he's using actions not words. It's the International break and, once again, Shawky is fit for Egypt but not for Boro. He's played more games for his country than for his club in his time with Boro.
I was going to say 'in his time on Teesside' but that wouldn't quite fit, would it?
It's the world's worst kept secret that his continued 'niggles' and 'lack of match fitness' are a steaming load of euphemisms. Or 'a heap of Bogardes', if you prefer.
The player has made his intentions clear, without yet being openly abusive, so the sooner he's gone the better. In the meantime he should continue to be kept away from Boro.
I'm presuming all means have been examined to ascertain whether what he's doing is in breach of his contract but that's probably a questless fruit since MFC and Boro are colluding with his 'refusenik' status.
Looks as though MFC did sign a restrictive contract with Hull and Folan, then. Oh dear.
**AV writes: My understanding is the estrangement with Shawky is a two way thing. I believe he was told to go and find a club in the summer as he wasn't going to feature and has mentally left. Now, even if needed, he is miles behind on match fitness and not tuned into the way the team plays anyway.
On Folan I understand there is an assumption of but no commitment to talks about a full time move in January. Obviously Phil Brown may be keener than Boro on such a move. I believe Boro are still looking at other possible options for January but will give Folan a chance to get fit and prove himself in the meantime.
AV
Or you could put it - "....will give Folan (and Hull) a chance to be paid while he can't play and run the risk that he'll not play at all or in any significant way to prove himself before his loan's up."
Doesn't make sense.
Ther Eric Paylor interview with Mr. Southgate: Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.....
When you read this desperately weak stuff from The Manager (again and again), it's no wonder we were relegated. Very, very poor - and easy amunition for those entrenched in the 'anti' faction. It won't help get the 'don't knows' onside either.
I've got past the angry stage now and onto the merely resigned but much more of that sort of stuff and I could get back to cross very quickly... but it would be fruitless.
So, I don't know if I want to even look at Parts II & III but it does have the seemingly unavoidable morbid fascination of rubber-necking at a wreck.
I'd much rather have a convincing manifesto from him for how Boro are going to get back to the top flight this season we can get behind - if Mr. Southgate has one - and how he thinks the first quarter of the season has gone and does it meet his plans.
There would be more than enough questions to ask about that, surely.
southgate today: "But since Alves was signed, we have changed the whole policy and procedure and the way we go about our recruitment"
What was the policy before? Sign a player on the basis that he put seven past a non league team, watch some videos or take his agent's, or mum's, word that he is very good. Think of a realistic figure: double, no treble, no whatever the word of multiply by 24 is that to work out the inflated fee you will pay. Not get suspicious that there hardly seems to be a scramble to sign him, despite a dearth of goal-every-two-games strikers anywhere out of the top four.
In some industries, in fact probably all, someone in responsibility who made that decision (and despite what anyone says, it was his responsibility and he would have a veto) and lost such a lot of money would be sacked or would be expected to, at very least, offer his resignation for the employers to accept or reject.
I cannot think of a such a shocking misjudgement and poor signing in football as it relates to a club's own finances. Ok, Man U and Chelsea have had bigger, more expensive turkeys, but their pockets are effectively bottomless. For Boro to waste that amount of money given their turnover, and debt, must be one of the worst signings ever made.
Southgate must pray nightly to give thanks to whoever is the patron saint of tame local journalists who never ask hard questions.
I thought Alves was a great signing at he time it happened. I still think he had more chances to score than anybody else in our squad last season. I think he was a good player (bad players don't even get the chances). But something went wrong - unfortunately!
But I agree with John Powls that this interview serie might get people angry again. Just as I were hoping that something positive might emerge here and at the Riverside. So please accept what happened and concentrate on the next two home matches!
Up the Boro!
Southgate has revealed that the policy used in signing of Alves has been changed and basically admitted that the sale of Luke Young , Cattermole and Boat made good buisness at the time but weakened the squad regarding prem experience. A 7 mil cut had to be made to the squad.
Luke Young was our player of the year the previous year and a real leader on the pitch, he was replaced by Hoyte for 3 mil making a profit of 3 mil. He basically sold our player of the year and the bite in midfield to chae an inflated price on un proved Alves. Complaints about a lack of experience on the pitch are mad after the team stripping that went on.
Experienced brazilian Rockemback could have supplied the bullets for Alves but went for nowt [ I know he was on big wages] but even then we had Mendi not able to get a game all season despite being the most experienced player on the books and having blinders for the reserves. In order to save £7m we lost £25m and prem status.
I dont want to hear the learned lesson stuff any more because it seems in order to teach Gareth what it takes to manage Gibbo has sacrificed the team. OUCH
A straight forward interview with GS so far,he's as honest as always. I dont think there are any surprises in what he has said.
For me the summary would be several mistakes made due to inexperience, combined with a reduction in funding, result relegation. There's nothing new there, I am interested in looking ahead though, strategy for the rest of the season, plans for the January window and indeed the Summer.
AV, I think the Gazette website is experiencing some technical problems as it seems a Boro Banter piece written by Richard has accidently been posted as a legitimate interview from Gareth Southgate.
Still, at least the Gazette has kindly broken up the article in order to give us time to recover from laughing from each gem - obviously these are too numerous to list but my favourite has to be the following:
"There are certain players that you would have banked on to score goals and to make assists. They promised to reach those levels at the beginning of the season, but then it stopped"
Priceless! i'm already looking forward to parts II and III.
I ts a shame Shawky feels the way he does at the club, hes never really been given a run in the team and could be useful next to O'Neil in the middle as a more holding player. He is experienced too. We are paying him and Gate should be able to motivate him.
"It's all different now"
See the postings above about Folan and Shawky.
Plus ca change........
Bored of extra time. Watching the clock tick down, waiting for the fun bit of penalties? Tired of has-been pundits talk of the lottery of the shoot-out and it’s a shame we can’t find another way settling a game.
Well after much thought, research and practical testing I have the new solution.
MULTI BALL
Extra time starts as normal but after seven and a half mins a second ball is introduced via a bounce up in the centre circle. The original ball enters play where it last left i.e. throw in corner etc. Now the offside rule is only applicable from the edge of the box.
The start of the second half begins with an addition to the pitch. A giant (6ft) wooden toadstool. The sort of thing you might find on the bar billiards table, only bigger. Then with seven and a half minutes to go a third ball is introduced, a vividly different colour to the other balls and is worth two goals if scored with.
If you are still reading this you may be wondering why the toadstool. Well this is placed on the centre spot but if knocked over by a player or a ball this ends the game. The side responsible for knocking over the toadstool instantly loose, even if they lead 15-4.
I only post this as I have grown bored by the constant criticism of the club no matter what they do. Southgate gets pelters for talking to the Gazette and trying to explain some of last season’s failings. The Gazette gets pelters for asking soft questions. What sort of world are some of you living in?
What do you want? AV dressed up in full Rambo gear, breaks in to Southgate’s home in the middle of the night demanding answers. ‘Why did you destroy my club you fool?’ Southgate meekly replies ‘I’m sorry, I’m a worthless man, put me out of my misery’
Can we please lay off the club and the ‘soft press’ for a while or Multi ball extra time could become a reality for the modern, instant satisfaction football fan.
AV writes: *sheepishly takes off ninja gear*
Southgate Interview - more statements of the bleeding obvious.
Did he specify the questions as well as give the answers? Why were those answers blandly accepted? He should have been grilled over an open fire. Poor show by Paylor. Sorry,but you journoes should know better. Just more PR spin from the club which has again backfired.
Get him before a select panel of supporters, and let him answer the questions THEY will put to him.
**AV writes: Do you think he would answer differently then? Or is the plan just to shout the questions louder when he doesn't say the right things? When the public asked questions on the BBC phone-in, some very forcefully, the answers were still derided as being soft soap. For some sections it doesn't matter what the questions are, or what the answers are, they will still not be satisfied.
We had salmon tonight ...... must be catching
Shawky is obviously a good player technically, but I think the best game I've seen him have was against Stoke last year at the Riverside when they had 10 men. I just can't see him being effective in a two-man midfield in the Championship and Gareth probably thinks the same.
As for the positive/negative debate, isn't life simply more enjoyable seeing the glass half full than half empty?
AV, Gareth isn't so much giving answers, just reading from a prepared statement. Some of those 'questions' asked should have been followed up with qualifying questions, as the answers did not give a full accounting. The fans would not have let him get away with some of the bland responses he made, and would almost certainly have had tougher questions for him to try and wriggle out of.
Eric and Alistair are seen as club mouthpieces, and so we would not expect either of them to hold any worthwhile 'interviews' with anyone from the club.
**AV writes: Journalism doesn't work by arguing with people which is what you are suggesting when you say "fans wouldn't let him get away with bland responses."
As for "tougher" questions, interrogation under spotlights is fine if you are Jeremy Paxman dealing with a politician who sees being quizzed as central to their job but people in football are under no obligation to answer questions, are uncomfortable with having their words scrutinised and clam up if you are too aggressive with them. They can easily just retreat into taking each cliche as it comes. We find that gentle coaxing and empathetic conversation gets better results, relaxs people and encourages them to open up far more than a confrontational approach would.
When Gareth was first appointed I believed that his honesty and integrity were admirable qualities and something that set him apart from his peers. Now they reek of self parody.
I guess I should admire the tolerance of some of the people on here but I am incredulous that anybody could have read this self pitying, facile, vacuous piece without poking their own eyes out.
Gareth neatly itemizes all of the multitude of mistakes that were made last season in response to the questions asked and on occasion talks of ‘taking responsibility’ for them. BUT HE DOESN’T.
He is the manager. Does anybody out there understand what that means? He is in control and makes the strategic decisions. HE IS RESPONSIBLE. Nobody else is to blame. And now there are people on here pleading with the fans to get behind the team because if they don’t we might not go up.
It is the not the fans fault or responsibility and it is cloud cuckoo land to imagine that we can get the team promoted. Newcastle fans back their team to the hilt in massive numbers, match after match, are as one eyed as they come with regard to referee’s decisions and have tolerated the worst chairman in Christendom and they have won completely zilch in over 50 years.
Boro fans do back their team and have done so with passion and hard cash for years. It is the manager and the players that provide the success on the field, nobody else. Gareth has presided over three years of perpetual decline and even this season whenever properly tested has failed abysmally. We have not beaten anybody remotely any good.
John Powls, right at the beginning of this thread, got it absolutely right. The overriding impression provided by this interview is weakness. He has more or less admitted that he cannot affect change when things start to go wrong, incredible for a man in a job whose sole focus is to do just that, otherwise why have a manager?
When we fail to go up and lose more of our better players, entrenched in championship mediocrity, some of the people on here will still want nobody to moan, will still want their match day experience to resemble a night at the theatre and will still believe Gareth is the man for the job.
Not even Steve Gibson is so short sighted as to give this man a new contract so for the rest of us it is just a matter of time.