Two Points And Political Ground Squandered
INSULT added to injury time... Boro were dealt a sucker punch in time added on for the touchline conference after Leroy Lita was pulled back by last man Ward two minutes from time. Gutted.
That said the game should have been closed out in the first half when Boro survived a shaky start to take complete control. They scored twice and could have had a few more then after the break had another couple of cracking chances to seal it.
Then a familiar slow motion retreat began, conceding space, time and the initiative and inviting pressure from a team that looked well beaten at the break. And after the first Coventry goal there was an air of inevitability about the outcome.
A point away is not a disaster but the powerless slide from a position of superiority was. Not only were two goals and two points squandered but also the chance to prove a point after the West Brom debacle. It has given the anti-Southgate bandwagon another hefty push and considerably raised the political stakes at home to Leicester on Tuesday.
Older/Newer
« Angry - But No Time For A Mob | Boro's Political Powder Keg Set To Blow? »
83 Comments
Leave a comment
Profile
Anthony Vickers
Keep up to date
Follow Untypical Boro on
I feel like I have been burgled.
Have we not learned the lessons of last season? Giving away free kicks in dangerous positions, and conceding goals in the last minute.
And while we are at it, I suspect Roger Daltry knows more about the art of subsitution than anyone at our club.
Gareth is a great guy, great captain. Not so great manager. It seems to me that what we are missing is Gareth on the pitch.Paul Ince, Tony Mowbray, Stuart Boam, Nigel Pearson they were all good. You know since Gareth moved upstairs, Boateng, Poggi, Arca, Wheater they just dont have it.
Sort the captaincy out quickly Gareth, or step aside and let somebody else sort it our for you.
UP THE BORO..
ps. Listening to the coventry game live on Boro World and my aussie wife says "I bet you concede a goal in the last minute, you always do, at least you are consistent"
NOT HAPPY
This is why I hate Saturday nights!!!!
Why can’t we see out a game. Are we too young as a team, no nouse. Definite lack of leadership on the pitch, why can’t we see games out!! In the last three years we have shipped so many goals and points in the closing stages. These continual kicks in the teeth are starting to grind us all down. I dread to think what the official stats are on late points dropped. I remember the game at Blackburn last year and feel this could be a turning point also.
Having promising young players is one thing but young does not = good. We need some pro’s, some wily winners to boost the team. I remember the next big things being Craig Harrison, Mark Summerbell, Anthony Ormerod, Baker, Wilkshire, Marinelli etc etc. For what ever reasons these players did not make it. Will Taylor, Grounds, Hines, McMahon, Walker play the majority of their careers in the premier league? I don’t know.
I’m not having a go at these lads as I can see they are committed and they will always get my support but some experience and leadership along side them at this stage of their careers might shape their careers for the better.
Back to strictly come suicide
Keep the faith, C’mon Boro
Please can you ask Southgate the logic behind his subs? Any of them please? I just don't get any of his subs and would love to know what the hell he is thinking about when he changes the game the wrong way every time. I really can't think of a worse manager in the history of the game at making subs.
Thanks
I would like to understand why Gareth pulled off Adam and Marvin: it seemed to hand the initiative to Coventry. Did he think he had it won and fancied giving a run-out to Leroy and Yeates - saving the two players who Coventry seemed most disturbed by for Tuesday night? We're not good enough to do squad rotations?
**AV writes: Emnes, took a knock on the head when he fell heavily and Johnson had 'a touch of cramp.'
When are Boro going to stop letting in goals in the 45th and 90th minute of games?
It suggests teh players are 1) not fit enough or 2) not being coached properly. This has been going on for at least three years.
NO PRIZES AWARDED FOR GUESSING WHOSE FAULT THIS IS.
Typical Boro, we suffer ridiculous incompetent Officials (how many games like Hull away last season have they cost us?) and say nothing, being gentlemanly and polite showing respect. Contrast that with how Fergie, Wenger or even 'arry would react.
It's no coincidence we get ridiculous decisions going against us as Officialdom know they could put a blindfolded donkey in charge of a Boro game and Gareth and Coops would shake his hoof at the end of it saying well done!
If there is no outburst, outrage and uncontrolled vitriolic anger directed at officials the same as the TOP MANAGERS vent their spleen then we will get trussed up like the turkeys we are, week after week, season after lesson learning season. If there is no passion and drive from the bench (and I strongly suspect much higher up the chain) then it won't manifest on the pitch.
Last minute goal, it appears that despite the rhetoric Gareth in fact does not learn lessons. The gap is getting wider and we are now starting to drift from the automatic spots.
There is still a long way to go and a lot of points to play for but the current benchmark is a shambles of a rudderless club with a stop gap manager who has lost his top players and struggled to replace them due to the farcical goings on at board level.
Its becoming clearer season after season that the Boro we are now witnessing has got nothing to do with the Count's claims of affordability and everything to do with naive and poor management at several levels of the club - director level, public relations level, coaching level, reserve/youth team level, (yeah yeah, Downing, Graham, Brunt, Cattermole, Morrison, Turnbull et al but the well has gone dry) scouting level and right through until we reach Gareth.
Whilst his inability to learn on the job has cost us dearly (and still is) the responsibilty is collectively much wider. As an organisation it has serious flaws at so many levels it is difficult to see where the biggest change of management would have the most effect. Gareth is just the sharp end of a pencil with many cracks in the lead.
Several years ago I sang and danced at Cardiff and wept with tears of joy at the Steaua night with my best mate. He now makes Scoredraw seem open minded and has refused to enter the Riverside after Gareth's 1st season.
It's very tough but I'm starting to get sick of making lame excuses for still going whilst he makes smug remarks and comments via text messages from afar. It hit home today when Coventry scored their 1st goal and he texted saying "well thats it 2-2 at best cos they havn't had their freebie last minute Boro pressie yet".
Interesting that the top two have also had a change of Management since the end of last season, I'm beginning to think it's no coincidence especiallly when contrasting the fortunes of last season's Premiership survivors.
If Gibbo wants Gareth to survive then he has to act quickly and decisively. He got him and our club into this collective Championship mess and having nerves of steel and being stubborn is one thing, fiddling while Boro's slow fuse is gathering convective and radiant heat is not smart or clever and its fooling nobody, not even the Foamie's.
Well what can I say about the Boro? ,I live in West Sussex, I am a Boro fan and have been all my life, Whats going on at the club?
To be honest Gareth Southgate should never of been giving the job, I think Gibbo wanted someone on the cheap, I think now Southgate has run out of ideas, Theres nothing left in him, We need a fresh manager in,
I know Steve Gibson has done a lot for the club,but i think its time he sold it to an arab. He sold our best three players we had,- Tuncay, Huth, Downing - and I could not believe what he did, To get back in the premier league you need to keep all your best players,not sell them, Its sad whats happening to the Boro,
One saddened Boro fan.
I am sorry but the bottom line is once again we dropped vital points and the responsibity has to lie firmly on the shoulders of the manager Garth Southgate. From an optimistic start to the season..it is begining to look the the best we will achive under his leadership is mid-table.Paul Hart would be a good replacement.
Smogonthetyne has hit the proverbial nail very firmly on the head.
I have said for a long time that just because a player is born within 25 miles of Middlesbrough does not mean
A) they are automatically good enough to play for the first team.
or
B) mean they have a great attitude and a tremendous will to win just because they are a local lad.
I remember a certain Brazilian who was born JUST outside the 25 mile radius who gave more and tried harder for Middlesbrough than any player i have seen in recent years. I even look at Mendieta, a £30m player, who although he may never have been brilliant for us, loves the area, and is now an adopted son of Teesside.
I'm trying to make two points. The first being that to rely too heavily on youth when they are not proven in their respective positions explains the performances of the previous two weeks. Like a new Sunday league side full of promising players who too easily can be bullied out of games by the more established, experienced teams.
Secondly if you sign the right foreigners, those with a real appetite for success and a determination to win they will give just as much as a "local lad" on the pitch.
Have decided to steer clear of another rant about Gareth's ineptitude. I fear he is performing that task quite admirably himself without the need for me to point out his many failings. Although i would ike to ask those who still support Gareth to please outline to me what his strengths are.
I rate a manager in the following areas, starting with the most important.
1) The ability to judge a player - Any top manager knows what constitutes a good player and it is this skill alone which i think marks out the Arsene Wengers or Alex Fergusons from the also rans
2) The ability to get the best out of the players you manage - Harry Redknapp at Spurs instantly got a faltering team firing and this can only be put down to his man management skills.
3) Understanding tactics - Spotting weaknesses in your line up and critically spotting strengths in your opponents and then adapting your team accordingly.
4) Making useful substitutions that can affect the game - Man Utd in the 1999 Champions League final. 2 Subs 2 goals. Even McClaren in our UEFA cup run.
How do people feel Gareth fairs in each of these 4 areas and do people feel their are attributes of a manager that i have failed to mention?
Interesting comments in the immediate aftermath. Possibly you needed to not see or hear the game (which I didn't) to feel this way, but I would have thought that's a good point. Coventry have been in good form and beat Sheff Utd last week.
When Redcar Red gets up in the morning and looks at the Sunday papers he'll realise that the gap to an automatic promotion spot did not get bigger, but in fact got smaller (4 points to 3 points). John Rogers will realise that Boro aren't the only club to concede a goal in the 45th minute - Coventry did yesterday.
Our away form is excellent and certainly good enough to put us in with a shout of promotion. I'm worried about playing at home though - I think the crowd will continue to get on the players backs and that could be the decisive factor in a failed promotion bid. Hope not, but that's how I see things panning out.
Meanwhile the Cats won a ripper Grand Final against St Kilda yesterday!!
Just watched the highlights on TV and was beginning to think that we've bounced back well after last week - but as they say old habits die hard and we threw away the game.
This is indeed a fragile team with little character on the pitch - wasn't Cooper telling us a few days ago how WBA took the sting out of the game and stopped us getting back into it? - don't the players read the Gazette?
Despite the cliched hype this is a poor league - Boro need to do a lot better - the recent new signings just don't look fit for purpose and don't even give us the experience and character we so obviously lack.
I'm no longer interested in what those in charge have to say in explanation as it never sounds like anybody is actually accountable - They know what their jobs are and they are not convincing anybody that they are doing them properly.
Another lesson learnt Gareth? doubt it.
How flagrant was the hand ball on Morrison before he leveled? And why wasn't Ward sent off for that late foul on LL? Redcar Red is right - have a good bellow at the officials expense every once in a while, to hell w/ the consequences - GS demands passion from his charges and from us, so why not lead by example?
To Paul
Q1. 1-2 out of 10, possibly being generous with 2
Q2. 0 out of 10, we can all recall every player performing badly with GS in charge and point to man management of Yakubu, Cattermole, Maccaroni, Woodgate, Alves, Mido, Turnbull the list goes on and we have no idea what's happened to Walker who was looking good last year.
Q3. 1 out of 10, again possibly being generous with the 1. When the management say a team like West Brom is beating us tactically (they're not Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal or ManU) then it's a concern, slowing down throw-ins beats us tactically? Unable to defend set pieces when we have two former England centre halves as "coaches" and unable to see a game out when winning with only extra time left. As I said 1 was possibly being generous.
Q4. We get worse with substitutions and hand the initiative to the other side. Seems to me another big fat 0 there too
But you are right Keenog, we actually need someone like Gareth playing not managing !
It seems that tactically we can't change in response to the other team. Coventry reshaped after the break and we didn't see it. Then we took off our winger who was our attacking defender and sat back on our backsides.
Against West Brom we didn't recognize their shape and just plugged away without vision. I feel that it is now "Boro as usual" all over again.
Bitterly disappointed after the equalizer! Especially after leading 2-0. Young team, I know. But a draw away from is OK even though we should have held the three points.
Perhaps we need a leader on the field like we used to have in GS, Mowbray, Stuart Boam, Nigel Pearson like Keenog said earlier.
Patience! But this is football. The table doesn't lie - we are still third and an interesting home game soon. Up the Boro!
John M Rogers
At least three years is correct with the emphasis on the 'at least'.
We get sucked back further and further into the penalty area which becomes congested. We concede silly free kicks which gives the opposition chance to launch a hopeful ball into the lottery of our penalty area.
People are lost in the confusion, the oppostion have several players free on the edge of the box to return any clearances back into the danger area and eventually drops to an unmarked player. The rest is repeated history.
I must admit I am still baffled how we can so many players into our area and still leave people unmarked in yards of space.
Next up a rugged Leicester side managed by big Nige. They will be a tough challenge after a roasting by the boss following their home defeat by Preston.
I will repeat a comment I have posted before. I suspect we will look better away from home this season where we can play on the break. We are not the best at controlling the football as shown by 45% possession in our last couple of home matches. It may mean that when we have the ball we attack with pace but dont tend to hold the ball and keep play away from our half. Just a thought
Thanks for explanation, AV, but it seemed to me (I was there) that Emnes had cleared his head (of course the bench would presumably have had messages from him if he was groggy or if they were worried by the clattering he had, so fair enough), but, when I were a lad, it was pretty normal to run through "a touch of cramp." Perhaps modern sports science has much advanced from the days when about 15 players used to suffice for a season's games.
What's wrong with the idea of keeping the team going when they seemed to have the full measure of the Coventry lads. What I saw was pretty clear as a pattern: we were smoothly running forward, snuffing out most of the threats (and Joe Bennett played at least as well as Grounds, his substitute, I thought), and, after the subs, they just steamrollered us, very similarly to the way WBA did. I've always been a big supporter of Gareth, and I just wonder if he's tending to mollycoddle the lads.
**AV Writes: On Emnes, we had a pretty good side-on view of it and it seemed to me that there wasn't much if any contact, although he did hit the ground quite hard. And it seemed to me AJ's cramp coincided with his yellow for diving.
I think as the game wore on the lads in the middle were flagging a bit and that is partly why they say back and conceded space. Ideally we should have added some pace to close down more quickly, press the Coventry midfield and offer an outlet when Boro's defence go the ball... but who? There wasn't a central midfielder on the bench. That for me is the central problem in the squad make-up.
Maybe we should have gone to a five in midfield - put Aliadiere wide right, slotted O'Neil into the middle where is is very effective - and put Folan up front to hold the ball up and buy time and slow the game up. I thought that's why he was brought in. Also we should have been wasting time, slowing the tempo, staying down after 'injuries' and taking eons over throws and kicks.
Same old Boro from last season: no midfield, GS subs the wrong players, cant figure out the other sides tactics, result two points gone.
Seems pretty obvious even this early that if we throw points away it will boil down to taking points of the Mags or WBA to go up. I can't see this team getting through the play offs; just think of the Cardiff game.
Newcastle that sorry bunch of managerless overpaid mercenaries thrashed Ipswich 4-0. Can anyone on this blog see us beating them? My Dad used to say Sunderland could beat us by just throwing their shirts on the pitch. I fear WBA and Newcastle are in that mental area for the team now so it becomes really important to not only beat the poorer sides but thrash them as well.
But with this manager no chance, wee BS always states all he wanted was to score goals. I bet Emnes is the same. So 2-0 up he takes him off result two points lost and a bad performance. Bet Leicester can't wait. SOUTHGATE OUT PLEASE
Some people just NEVER learn. Also when are the two forwards going to start scoring goals, after all the complaints about Alves being useless, well only time will tell if I am being too hard on the four we have got.
So, Mr. "I won't make a change just because of one game" made three changes in the back five alone. And the two who stayed have only one game together under their belts - that a 5-0 defeat. Can you wonder that - even in the first half - they played like they hadn't seen one another before.
And what must Mr. Southgate's half time team talk been like? Midas in reverse.
All the old problems - no organisation, no fitness - the whole team were shot by 75, no leader on the pitch, no tactical nous, fragile confidence, only play one half, concede with the last kick of the game and throw two points away.
I'm sorry - well, actually, I'm not after yesterday - but the test, for me, as to whether Gibbo is serious about promotion is that Mr. Southgate and his coaches have to be shown the door.
"The table doesn't lie - we are still third and an interesting home game soon. Up the Boro!"
No we aint!
There must be SOMEBODY at the club who can fix these last minute collapses. Every one has been on about them for the last three years. If we havent got someone, Get someone!!!
It isnt rocket science make sure the game is played out in the other half of the field or even in row z in the dying moments. And as for subs I too cannot for the life of me work out what he's trying to do other than give them a run to keep the peace.
Last week up against the league leaderswhat does he do but weaken a good defence and put in players who didnt even know each other. WHY ?? Surely it was wiser to let them have a weeks training together before changing the team, after all he is not Roy Keen or Jaap Stam or the like.
I thought Gareth was maybe a shrewd move but now???? whats to say or do
Get Strachan quickly. He'd bring some experience, fight and humour to the club.
For all those concerned about Gareth and feeling bad about him getting removed just consider this scenario.
The week after he gets removed or resigns he will have to go in to meet his bank manager to have that awkward conversation ...
The bank manager will look up and say: "Right Gareth what are we going to do with all this bloody money. " Three days later he will be selling his knowledge and experience on TV as a pundit and he, his wife and kids will realise how lucky they are. And good luck to him - I like him.
The talk about "hurting" and "disappointment" in the dressing room after the late capitulation to Coventry is both woeful and insightful. It's as though somebody had done something nasty to them that they didn't deserve!
If they're sitting around "hurting" and feeling sorry for themselves, then that would seem to be an indication of the lack of character in the squad. True winners would be furiously angry at themselves. They'd assume personal responsibility and they'd be screaming blue murder. They'd be determined to contribute better themselves next time and be promising, swearing on their lives, never to let it happen again! But then, IF they were a team of real winners, they wouldn't have let it happen in the first place!
The last two matches have demonstrated once again the lack of psychological grit we've had for the last two or three seasons. We've had some decent ball-players, maybe, but that's NOT the complete package.
There's insufficient grit, determination, and football intelligence in that squad - as well as not having some strength in depth.
If we're not in the top two automatic promotion positions and have to go into play-offs - assuming we're even good enough to finish in one of those positions - then they don't have the cup-tie mentality to get through via that route.
Gibson, Southgate and Co. had better ponder on that big picture before it's too late.
So Tuncay is warming the bench for Stoke... bet he didnt bank on that when he left. I cant believe Stoke are that much better than us, that we missed him so badly , and they dont need him in their eleven.
From now on when we get back to a winning combo lets keep it till we get beat and only then think about changing it. I was always told never change a winning side
Inevitable indeed. From last season and this
Tottenham ( 93)
L'pool (86 and 94)
Pompey (86)
Blunderland (82, 92)
Blackburn (94)
Hull (82, 85)
W.Ham (83)
Stoke (84)
B City (91)
Ipswich (96)
Cov (95)
Roughly speaking every 1 in 3 n half games we concede in the last 10 minutes. God knows how many points that cost us last year, and i'm not counting games where we got nothing from winning positions.
Couldn't go yesterday but as I listened in the news that we were sitting back and Co were coming into it, you just absolutely knew what would happen. However,I think yesterday was the most angry I have felt in ages coz of the terrible inevitability of it
This terrible record of conceding so late on in games suggests to me an absolute lack of mental toughness which can only be addressed by appointing a proper captain. We desperately need a no nonsense nutter who will absolutely refuse to buckle. Pearson, Mogga, the Boat,Townsend, Ince, Southgate. We haven't had a captain for ages. I love Wheater but a captain he ain't.
I am one of those in the desperately want GS to succeed. I see no benefit in getting rid now, we'd descend into further chaos. But,
1. What did he say at half time
2. Why wasn't he screeching like a banshee in the last few mins,
3.Why take Bennett off (both goals from the left),
4. Why put an attacking midfielder who can't defend on for Johnson
5. Why not for once berate the officials
6. Why haven't we signed a midfielder
I'm sure he has got it in him to be a great boss, but it is getting harder to defend the indefensible. He needs to get nasty, quick.
Hey, I just noticed on facebook that Sol Campbell has quit Notts County.
I wonder if he might be interested in being Middlesbrough Captain ??
A powerless slide from a position of superiority perfectly sums up yesterday.
We were streets ahead of Coventry in terms of ability but the old failings showed their ugly head again, in a couple of nonsense pieces of defending for both Coventry goals.
Yes, we got punished (instead of Coventry) for the added time following a blatent foul that should have resulted in as red card, but you play to the final whistle, and it's simply shocking that a defender as good as Southgate was, cannot communicate how to defend to his chosen back four.
Simply poor management of course, but that debate will rage on this season, long after Gibson sees the season out with the manager with the lowest popularity rating since .. Lennie?
After watching the rampant Geordies, it is apparant that they might need a 10 point deduction to stop them, and even then they might still be good enough for a top two finish! I stick by my original preseason prediction, that we may be good enough for a top 6 finish despite a hapless management team, but nothing more. Come on Boro!
Not sure what this anti-Southgate bandwagon is you are talking about. That implies it is either a recent thing or people who are not sincere about their thoughts.
The day they made Southgate manager, I thought it was a joke and would be regretted very quickly. It was a backward step; we had done the thing of using the kudos of a big name player to attract stars before with Robson. It was the time to get a manager as good, or better than McClaren.
However, I thought I have been wrong before and like everyone else, thought Southgate was a good chap and if it didn't work out, he would go like the gent he was. With each year of his five year deal passing (on top players wages, I assume) it has become transparent that he has no aptitude for the job. Nothing has ever seemed as painfully obvious in my life.
Not on one occasion has he shown himself to be anything other that joint worst manager in professional football with the ex-players who each year try their hand at it, fail and disappear, never to be heard of again. There has not been one tactical master stroke, one canny signing, one careful nurturing of a player who thus improved in value. Nothing; in fact quite the opposite: naiveté, atrocious signings and players made worse by bad man managment.
You will no doubt spout the party line about the brave new world of a reformed financial model that always ignores inconvenient facts or that we must support Gareth because it may be disruptive not to. You could have said the same of Chamberlain...
But the fact remains that so few Boro fans actually think he has the potential to be a good manager that it may as well be none. Some may think he may just be alright given time, but does anyone really think we have a future England or top four manager on our hands?
If he did the decent thing and resigned (and if he did not give the club that option it would make him go down in my estimation as he is just taking the money, knowing he would get a big pay out if they sacked him) no one would care beyond the sentiment of liking him, which is irrelevant.
Coventry (0)2 - (2)2 Middlesbrough
Q: Are we not Men?
A: We are Boro!
**AV writes: I can't get no, satisfaction.
Brandon
The problem with the manager having a bellow at the officials and a rant afterwards is that we would probably be banned from the touch line and we would lose his expertise in the technical area.
Mmmmmmmm!
A bit calmer now, although naturally I was furious for an hour (at least) after the final whistle. I remembered the look on Chris Coleman's face when we undeservedly snatched a point against his Fulham at the Riverside with a penalty that wasn't...I guess breaks even themselves out.
And in fairness, I have felt worse in a similar situation. And back then, Southgate wasn't in the manager's seat:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2354175/Crazy-comeback-foils-Boro.html
I can tell you, that game, and a similar capitulation at home to Fulham on what looked like being a dream home debut for Maccarone, both came to mind when Morrison pulled a goal back.
To which it's easy to say - will we ever learn?
But don't forget that the likes of Man U and Arsenal have also thrown away 2-0 leads when chasing titles. So maybe it was just a pressure thing? If it is, it's clear that we do not have enough wise old heads in our squad to cope with it.
And whose fault's that?
I always feel bad criticising the Gate, but would it have been so difficult to save that third substitution in case of an injury? To NOT bring off Bennett just because he had a small knock and save a substitution for an extra defender instead? To keep our best player - Jinky of course - ON the pitch just in case?
To change formation against WBA to try and at least reduce the deficit? Even McClaren would have done that!
Frustrating. Positively frustrating.
PS I turned the Ipswich-Newcastle game off after 35 minutes...seeing this supposedly-in-crisis club stroll to the top of the league at our expense is too much to take. And how have they managed to hold on to Butt, Smith, Nolan and Geremi?
Even more frustrating.
Just watched Strachan's match analysis on the Mackems against Wolves, and it's scary but I agree with scoredraw ... how fantastic would it be to get him on board (Strachan that is!) I've always admired his approach to the game, even when he was nearly cracking up when managing Coventry! Though it's Christmas soon, don't expect any presents from Gibson delivering a new gift wrapped manager!
Thanks, AV: your explanation of what was wrong convinces me completely. And your tactical suggestions also make clear sense - of a kind that players would appreciate and work coherently to carry out.
Perhaps Gareth is thinking in terms of individuals too much, instead of patterns, flows, problem areas etc. (Emnes might be struggling, Johnson might get sent off, Bennett might be tiring, etc.) This would be consistent with his niceness as a person.
But I think your kind of analysis (of the team as a whole, rather than focused on individuals, predominantly in terms of negatives, which will therefore always tend to demoralise individuals who are affected by such decisions) may be what is needed.
I heard Strachan talking today on Sky in terms of "the two central midfielders" and so on: this may be the kind of impartial thinking that GS needs to be doing. Has GS had difficulty, maybe, moving from player to boss and been inclined to think too much in terms of his players as a captain needs to (looking out for them, their welfare) and not enough as a manager needs to (more like pawns in a chess game)?
I watched a poor game ,played by two poor teams,officiated by poor officials,more alarming to me, as a Boro fan is the lack of fight in this team. Once again the same reaction we've had for two seasons showed its ugly head,and this starts at the top.
Make no mistake this league is so bad,that the team at the top all the way down to 92nd, with a good run could get promotion, in any of the divisions if SG wants to re-invent Joe Waltons jrs, then he ought to step aside, because it seems obvious to all HE is the one holding the football club back.
Steve Gibson is the man not Gareth Southgate who is responsaable... maybe just maybe he should consider becoming just a supporter not the owner.
Steve has done a great job but you can only do so much, Maybe it is time for someone else to take the club to the next level..not knowing Steve ..but sometimes you can stay to long I know he has the passion for his BORO.and if you love someone so much you have to let them go so that they can grow.
Saturday's diary
Met Pete from Halifax and travelled to Coventry. Mustered in Toleshill Gas Club - Had drinks and good banter with Cov fans. Our defence is rubbish but we have two good strikers they informed us.
Game gets underway and should have been all over by half time. 2-0 should have been 4 or 5 nil. It is very frustrating to see both of our forwards get a one on one with their keeper and both fluff their lines. Fairly happy fans at half time.
Three things lost us all three points in the second half:
1. GS is a nice man but his tactics with substitutions are appalling, despite the knock on the head and cramp excuses.
2. Disgraceful officiating yet again. A yellow card for Elliot Ward should have been red. An equaliser in the 5th minute of injury time when the board went up for four.
3. A solid back four for 70 minutes, then they suddenly look like they have never met each other. Jones goes into his 'don't panic' flapping mode,and the defence go 'walkabout'.
As the Coventry fans implied, they have two good strikers - both of whom scored.
As I said in my posting from last week, Boro lack leadership both on and off the pitch... until they can sort that out, these bizarre results will continue.
Bob, I woke up this morning, looked at the table and we are now five points adrift from the top. I'm not interested in second place and whether its three points or four, its for losers. Near enough is not good enough and perhaps that's where MFC and I differ in mentality and also I suspect the reason we are now behind those giants Preston North End and just one point above Blackpool.
Statistics are all in the interpretation but for me when a club that is in the state of NUFC start to leave us behind then it illustrates how poor we really are. Most of the above posts are focussing on Boro leadership and they are right but for me the leadership issue needs to start much higher up and quickly and without the desperate and disparate uninspiring blind faith trash.
Interesting to note after yesterday that Danny Graham is now on six goals from nine appearances. Chickens it seems are coming home to roost at an ever alarming rate week after week. Every where we turn we seem to be reminded of grave errors of judgement and its not all Gareth's fault.
Things are drawing to a head including rumours of protests gathering momentum. It's not just about the first two months of this season, its about the freefall of the last three years.
We might not be giants anymore but we have a richer history than you. 1 mickey mouse cup is it? Come back & slag us off when you've won the League & FA Cup double. Not gonna happen though is it? That's why we're always going to be better than you smoggies! WE ARE SUPERIOR!
**AV writes: For viewers in black and white, the above appears to be from a Preston fan.
So is it right the FA has decided NOT to move the national football museum to Teesside, then? Next to mima?
And if Conrad Knight REALLY is a PNE fan, he should be aware some of us on this blog know a little about the rich heritage football offers, that we don't all spend our time disrespecting "lesser clubs", and that PNE has a history much bigger than its present incarnation.
My best mate when I was in an Ivory Tower all those years ago was from Penwortham. He used to tell me that Finney was a much better crosser of a ball than Stanley Matthews, because when Finney put it in the penalty area the laces on the casey were always facing upwards, so the centre forwrd didn't hit the knot with his forehead. And he could unblock a lavatory (how many modern footballers could do that?).
And if you bid me a Shankly, I'll raise you a Clough and (through gritted teeth) a Revie. But it's probably best not to dwell too much on history. Otherwise we'll have to keep quiet whilst the Greeks maintain they hold mastery of the world because the exploits of Alexander the Great haven't been bettered.
No - it's better to worry about the present, and how our teams are performing now, rather than in the ancient record books.
AV - Has the Gazette had that editorial meeting yet? and if so what is your tipping point. For me even 4th position when we've only played 2 decent sides is poor, and any lower is not acceptable. (And take note I think there are only about 7 decent sides in this league!)
Despite being good for the first half, we still could not finish, BUT I thought we were dreadful for the last 30 on Saturday. - and it is a 96 minute game now (nothing new there!)
But tactically the substitutions for Jonno and Bennett were plain madness. When the numbers went up someone near me said "Isn't this situation we signed Folan for? Hold up the ball and kill the clock." But GS clearly doesn't understand. Over to you Gibbo - only one more game to the magic 10.
Back to you AV - Have you warned the server yet, (and in my world IT guys need at least 24 hours notice) coz if we don't win on Tuesday, we might be as low as 7th and that would probably be a good time for that piece about "Southgate out" Time to Sharpen your pencil?...
A.V.
Gareth's Soutgate's appointment as manager of Middlebrough Football club can only be compared to:
The captain of the Titanic deciding to plot a more northerly Atlantic crossing
Arch Duke Ferdinand deciding to go for a ride through the streets of Sarajevo in a horse drawn carriage
King Harold deciding to look up at the Battle of Hastings
Mohammad Abdullah deciding to buy a Betamax video recorder
Deciding on a quick shave at Sweeney Todd's barber shop
May I invite more imaginative contributors to this board to supply their contributions?
Fair enough Redcar Red. Personally I'd settle for second spot but I suspect we won't quite make it anyway. Preston and Blackpool have both had spells as REAL giants of the game, and both have a history that clearly puts ours to shame. Perhaps they are returning to what their supporters would probably describe as their "rightful place" alongside another recovering giant in Burnley.
‘It hurts because I care’ was my rather OTT response to my startled wife as I toe punted the boy’s bean bag chair across the room. (Fortunately Smog Jnr was not in the chair). In the way that only women can she said ‘you shouldn’t be so disappointed as you said they’d score at the end and we didn’t get beat’
Looking through all the previous posts these Nostradamus like predictions of last gasp despair really should prepare us better, but is doesn’t, it makes it worse. Cheers to Stockport Wiggy for the doom list, others to add from recent seasons, Scott Parker for West Ham, Toure for Arsenal, the list goes on.
As for our Preston fan, welcome aboard fella. I must say Conrad you make a cracking range of socks. Next up is our guest Leicester fan Lord Morgan of Glossop ‘You’re all ars……’
And on that bombshell
It was frustrating to lose a two goal lead but a draw isn't the end of the world, we're fourth, three points off the top. A decent position to my mind.
To all those who demand Southgates removal every time we dont win, try sitting back and enjoying the ride.
Did anybody else notice that Gareth has started inflating cliches for use as post match excuses?
"The game's never safe when you're only leading by two goals, so we were pushing for the third"
I'm sure the norm is that the game's never safe when you're only leading by one goal and teams usually push for the second to secure the victory. I believe when you're leading by two you're supposed to play the game out - especially with only 15 minutes to go!
Perhaps we may yet hear "The game's never safe when you're only 3-0 up at half-time that 4th goal is all important to beat plucky opposition"
**AV writes: It is football inflation. Like the norm now is "giving 120%" and having to concentrate for "the full 96 minutes."
Mohammad
...the time Mrs. Lincoln said to her husband 'You've been working too hard. You need taking out of yourself. Fancy a night at the theatre, dear?'
...when the banker with the sharp, shiny suit thought up the derivative wrapper for sub-prime mortgages in the USA and sold it to all those with an eye for Emperor's clothes.
I see the rumour about Nigel Reo-Coker has surfaced again. Well, we certainly need a midfielder of that ilk and he could provide some of that 'leader on the field' quality we're after too.
True, something about the attitude has always put me off him. Clearly, it doesn't do much for Martin O'Neill either. And Mr. Southgate clearly doesn't relish working with strong personalities.
And didn't the player also say that - aside from whether he's back in his manager's good books again (at least until January when the window opens)- he wouldn't take a loan to The Championship?
Or is this just all spin to deflect attention from the last two results?
If a midfield loaner's still on the cards then I'd go for a long term Boro target - Ferrie Bodde from The Swans.
Right then thinking caps on.
Which Championship club has not won a home game since January? And who do they host next?
I dread to think…..
Solved it! AV, your last two paragraphs in response to Halifaxp proves beyond any doubt your tactical nous. I'm contemplating starting a petition 'Anthony Vickers for Manager.' I believe the groundswell for such an idea will become so great that neither yourself nor Steve Gibson will be able to ignore it.
**AV writes: I'm already campaigning for my own sacking. Boooo!
Wedermouth:
Did GS really say: "The game's never safe when you're only leading by two goals, so we were pushing for the third?"
Boro sat back for the whole of the second half and got what they deserved. This is one lesson that GS and his coaching staff have not learnt from in his 3 years of management
C'Mon Boro!
**AV writes: Boro did push forward and had at least three good chances to seal it. The slow retreat didn't start until after the hour mark.
AV
The full retreat didn't start until around the hour mark but it was clear from the start of the second half that the nature of the contest had changed. Your very good article in today's Gazette explains why.
Boro did push forward and have chances to seal the game - but Coventry had chances to get their first before they did too. Good job they didn't - because I think Boro would then have lost.
Nigel - just to correct you Boro are fourth but five points off top. And to The Skunks.
Don't know if you were at The Riverside for The Baggies game or in the away end at Bristol City or Coventry like I was but I have to say that 'enjoying the ride' on occasions like that requires a disengaged saintliness that I just don't possess.
A point at Ashton Gate and another against The Baggies with a win on Saturday - not an unreasonable ask in all those circumstances - would have seen us top two, much closer to the Sid Jamesers and above West Brom and Preston.
The reason folks get at Mr. Southgate is because all the errors and shortcomings that continue to cost us are repeated, time after time after time.
That is his responsibility both as a manager and an individual because a number of the errors and shortcomings are not just to do with his team and his coaches but him personally.
I mentioned when Huth left that I could not understand if Southgate knew he was going or might be going for what ever reason why make him captain!
Until then we were unbeaten but most importantly no goals against, whether this was down to having a more solid defense with him in it or his captaincy. I think it was both. As others have said Wheater good player but not a captain yet. Ever since we tampered with the defence we have gone backwards.
Mohammad Abdullah said:
"Gareth's Soutgate's appointment as manager of Middlebrough Football club can only be compared to:
Arch Duke Ferdinand deciding to go for a ride through the streets of Sarajevo in a horse drawn carriage"
A point of order, Ferdinand was actually in a car and was not just out having a ride, he was returning to the palace in Sarajevo after visiting the hospital to check on those injured in a grenade blast. His driver took a wrong turn and the young student assassin, Princip, took his chance and didn't miss.
That feels better. Unlike Saturday, which still feels as bad.
I don't know how much stronger the case for GS's sacking can get until he actually gets the bullet. As others have said, disastorous substitutions which sent a clear message to the opposition ("we're going to sit on what we have"), stubborness supreme in playing the hapless, hopeless land-crab from Argentina (whose stupid flick and lazy chase led to Coventry's first goal), banal excuses, 'not-bothered' demeanour....please Mr Gibson, enough is enough.
Any betting what the attendance will be on Tues? Maybe that will be the straw that breaks the camels back!
**AV writes: All incidents of historical pedantry are to be encouraged.
Must have missed them being at the other end of the pitch!
Also when Boro resorted to lumping the ball up the pitch, why didn't Southgate bring Folan on? (now out injured)
He might have been able to at least win a header or two or hold the ball up.
C'Mon Boro!
Sick as a parott: I don't remember the exact phrase and to be fair I think Gareth didn't actually use the word 'pushing' but he did say that they were trying to a get a third as the game's not safe at 2-0.
My concern is that most of the new signings are looking less than useful - our metric equivalent of a pint-sized forward is struggling and has shown why he was no longer required by Reading, Forlorn was I think signed in desperation; Coyne seems to have been short-changed by Southgate in favour of Jones; St Ledger has yet to indicate he's a potential thoroughbred; Yeates doesn't look like poetry in motion.
OK, I think I've managed a post without resorting to cliches...
**AV writes: Very good. I'll be nicking the Yeates one I think.
John - three points, five points, the point is its a small gap, the fact that its Newcastle at the top is totally irrelevant of course.
late goals from the opposition are just another bad habit we have like slow retreat on the hour mark and bad substitutions.
There is no one on our bench who can replace Johnson and Huths captaincy and defending are missed.
Reo Coker would be a help.
A draw away is good but considering what we had with 15 minutes to go it is rubbish.
Smogonthetyne your post above reminded me the last time I saw Reading play.
"The Royals slipped into the relegation zone after losing their last eight league games but Harper side-footed home in the 90th minute to revive their survival hopes and record their first away win since last April."
That extract came from February 2008 and yet it seems like only last weekend, and the one before that and the one....... ...and probably next weekend and the one after that!
Just reflecting on the state of the Boro world, having read through all the comments so far...
SG's justification for perservering with GS seems to be that as he had given him the 'impossible job' in the first place how can he now sack him just because he has found the job impossible to do? There is a clear logic there, even if it's perverse
So, let's imagine things continue pretty much as they are... one or two more players to leave in January, one or two additional signings who fall short; questionable team selection; failures in team organisation, tactics and substitutions; an inability to concentrate through to the end of injury time; a crippling psychological paralysis in big games especially against 'weaker' or 'stronger' opponents where the fear or expectation of losing is pronounced; a lack of inspirational leadership on and off the field
Our season is never quite bad enough to get GS sacked; we win a fair few games but over the course of the season we drift away from automatic promotion but, despite a late scare, secure a play-off spot...I don't think anyone needs me to tell them what happens next 8-(
So, into GS season five, still in the Championship, with more of the same but the processes of disintegration accelerate - now we're bobbing around mid-table, struggling to get in to the play-off positions, and flirting with the danger zone at the other end. The voices that were red with rage earlier this year have largely been suffocated into submission; verbal snipers in the stands pick off individual players with debilitating abuse; the end of forelock tugging is signalled by the unfurling of a huge red banner calling for the head of Steve Gibson. Unthinkable pre Eindhoven...
Or...against all odds, we scrape promotion. Season five then becomes a test of ambition for SG and ability for GS. The red army is now divided root and branch: GS followers are more certain and feel vindicated, his critics more desperate with the increased stakes. SG talks of getting back in to Europe and to more Cup Finals as season-ticket sales move in to full-spin - but 98% of the masses know it's about one thing: survival. We're linked with shock moves for Neville and Scholes (again), and fail with an 'audacious' five million pound bid for Drogba. I think we've been here before
As I write this, sixteen floors up and looking across the Mumbai skyline, the ghosts of Juninho, Ravanelli and Emerson, of Marco Branca, of Bryan Robson and Uwe Fuchs, all weave their magic with memories that will never fade let alone die. I can recall going down to watch the Riverside being built and I can hold again that feeling of optimism and pride
I can still believe in the dream but not if the spin is hollow and the reality spells a different truth. It's the loss of faith in SG that hurts the most, that may be terminally damaging, not least because he was the architect of everything that we all believed in and now - and I really hate to say it - I don't feel I can trust what he says. Is this our new reality, is this what we've become?
**AV writes: I think that is a decent assessment of the trajectory and possibilities... except if we don't go up this season there will be no fifth season under Southgate and the likes of Wheater, O'Neil and Lita will be gone. Still, I think we will make a plucky go at survival under Mark Proctor.
Werdermouth - brilliant mate; really enjoyed that...
I thought (foolishly) that it was game over. Even Gary Gill said "they are there for the taking, its not how many we have scored, but how many will we score"
Hmmm, keep quiet in future Gary!
At that point I went out, got home and couldnt believe the result, then to watch the Geordies completly dismantle Ipswich. They are meant to be in total disarray and they look different class to us.
Things are not going to get better, any one who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves, that includes you Steve!
What will happen should we not get all three points against Leicester tomorrow night? I can't remember the last time Boro won at home.
Southgate still won't get sacked, which will prompt a protest by the fans, for all the good it will do. Gibson just doesn't want to listen.
The only sound he WILL listen to will be the sound of silence from empty seats, and there will be more and more empty seats at each home game until our problems are addressed.
I was there when Lennie Lawrence was forced out due to the falling gates. Will this be the only means of getting rid of Project Southgate?
Lots of talk pre season about the types of player needed to get out of this league..Where are they? Nolan, Butt, Smith. I wish!
Out of Darkness cometh light. (Which clubs motto is that?).
Had fun reading the posts, it really does cheer you up knowing someone else is as chuffed of as you. Werdermouth and Mohammad Abdullah amongst others great work.
I think it’s high time the club had a new motto as Erimus looks a little outdated; I think we have had our time.
AV, are you ever tempted to write a scathing article when in a fit of pique. Or do you just log on the Gazette Website under the name scoredraw and let rip?
**AV writes: Fit of pique? Wordy righteous indignation? Whatever. I did get 40 replies to a blog post after the drubbing at West Brom last year that consisted of the single word "bugger!"
Ernie
What will happen should we not get all three points against Leicester tomorrow night? I can't remember the last time Boro won at home.
Ipswich 3 - 1 12th of september 3 weeks ago
And Steve Howard of Leicester is yet to score this season........
Nigel
Now I see how you can 'enjoy the ride'.
AV
What are the rules/contract conditions on Folan's 'emergency' loan?
If the hammy is serious enough and we're looking at six to eight weeks out - that will be more than half his loan period. Could Boro then send him back now and go elsewhere or are we tied in until December 19th or whatever it was?
**AV writes: Eric has been at Hurworth this afternoon asking those very questions.
One of the things that not many have commented on was the wholesale changes in defence which contradicted what the manager said before the game.
If at all possible you need a settled back five.This got us clean sheets at the start of the season. We've lost Huth so this should mean one change with the rest as before. Now whilst I agree neither Mcmahon and Grounds had good days against W.Brom it was in the context of a stinking display from 1 to 11.
We now have only Wheater in place out of the original back five. Surely the management know the benefit of a settled defence and goalkeeper? Do they?
"**AV writes: Eric has been at Hurworth this afternoon asking those very questions."
................ and the answer(s)?
**AV writes: You'll have to wait for tomorrow's paper....
Parrot, I'm out in Cyprus at the moment, and I've only seen the Sheffield game on TV before I came out here. Since then, the only game I've seen (if you can call watching Justintv for 30 seconds at a time, seeing) was the Coventry game. It's been a long time since I personally saw the Boro win at home, that's for sure.
Look at the stats. They say Boro play better away from home for a reason. And when they play dire away from home, they play a lot worse in front of their home supporters. It's gone on for years. Back to Charlton's team when I first started supporting.
Boro are expected to attack the opposition when at home, and that's where things go wrong instantly, because we don't have the players to sustain successful attacks. We have no creativity, and we give the ball away too easily. Then we panic, as everyone including the ball-boys expects us to concede, and there is insufficient fight from the players, or tactical ability from the manager, to rescue the game.
The gates we had when Lennie Lawrence was forced out were less than 7,000. It just shows how far Steve Gibson has taken this club when a crowd of 19k for a home game with Leicester on a Tuesday night in the middle of a recession is seen as low.
We did almost everything right on Saturday. Some of you just can't wait for something to go wrong, so you can jump on the back of Gareth et al. It's pathetic.
We're fourth, we're scoring goals, we're winning matches, the games are coming thick and fast. I'm loving it. Bring on tomorrow night.
**AV writes: Sadly the divide in opinion was always going to be the story of the season.
Bummer!
Ferrie Bodde's done another cruciate and is out for the season. So much for him as a loan target.
BoroPhil said:
"We're fourth, we're scoring goals, we're winning matches, the games are coming thick and fast. I'm loving it. Bring on tomorrow night."
From the majority body of opinion, this could be restated as:
"we're already miles away from what it takes to be top two, we're conceding more than we're putting away, we've not won enough, the manager is slow. I'm already resigned to the inevitable. Tomorrow night will be more of the same."
That said, BoroPhil, I leave you with one of my favourite quotes from the Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen: "the majority is always wrong."
So Gareth Southgate now comes out with some new phrases. " The team has to be more ruthless" I hope he reads his own words and uses Alex Fergusson or Brian Clough as a role model. No wonder there is little ruthlessness when none comes from the top.
Now its "Southgate Demands" - what on earth does this mean? And what action is he going to take when his demands are not met? It may have been good practice if he'd done a bit of demanding, when he had a team containing a fair number of international players,in last season of relegation and not "I couldn't ask the players for more "
Seems to me that John Powls is doing more research on potential loan targets than anyone at the club (unless, unknown to us all, and in the face of public criticism, the scouts are beavering away in the background). The proof will be in the eating of that particular pudding. Let's see if, or who, we borrow.
One thing I can say is that I have heard a member of the club backroom staff, whilst talking at the "Boiled Rabbit", make it clear that Blackpool are a good side to look out for. And now they have sneaked up to the spot immediately below us in the table.
Thought you might say that!
Right on boro phil, I for one am enjoying this season and totally believe we are going back. We're not gonna break records for going undefeated but we have advantage over most of the teams in this league and were not in the relagation zone.
How many years did we stay up for last time we left this league? We didnt lose on sat away. I believe the plans for the Premier are already being put into motion. I'm glad the players who were sold went, no passion we didnt need them.
COME ON GARETH COME ON BORO BEWARE PREM WERE COMING 2 GETYA
Why was Emnes taken off? Didn't anyone see the horrendous tackle by Westwood ? Emnes had his internal organs rearranged by the keepers boot, and the ref did NOTHING! This incident was far more upsetting than Leroys push and shove on the half way line.
Unfortunately Southgate shows with his constant tinkering that he doesn't know what he's doing. He's never had the same side for any game. Against Sheff Wed we played well as a defensive unit, and SG changes it for the West Brom game.
Patience is needed by SG, keep with the same back four, and the supporters need to give the back four time to gel together (if SG plays the same four of course - hardly likely !)
A Boro supporter for 40 years
So, there is no sending Folan back within the first 28 days of the 93 day loan period.
We're about half way through that first 28 days so, nothing to be done for a fortnight - about Folan, that is. After that I suppose it depends on the estimates of how long he's going to be out.
Mr. Southgate says that there are no plans to get someone else in. Is that a politician's 'no plans' or is he for real? Assuming that Folan's lay off is going to be lengthy - in the context of the 93 days - then there's no point in keeping him longer than we have to.
Whilst no-one wants to see a player injured, there weren't many who judged him a good signing anyway - so this hammy may have just saved Mr. Southgate from himself.
In that case, surely MFC aren't that borassic that a fortnight's overlap where we have no choice but to pay for Folan can stand in the way of replacing him with another loaner?
I believe there's a date in November when loaners cease to be available until after the January window. Maybe Uncle Eric can lay out all the details in his upcoming article.
**AV writes: The deadline is 5pm on the fourth Thursday in November.
We are working on "about" three weeks out which would take you beyond the 28 days. By then Lita may have played his way to match sharpness and on balance the club may decide that it is not worth Folan catching up on his own fitness here. They are always looking at other options should the need or opportunity arise... I would prefer them to be actively looking for a midfielder.
Ernie
Boro will win more games at home this season because most of the teams in this league are poor.
What you have posted will probably be correct when we play the better sides in this division.
C'Mon Boro!
Southgate has been linked with a move for Aston Villa midfielder Nigel Reo-Coker. Also Fulham boss Roy Hodgson is considering a £3m move for the Villa midfielder in the January transfer window. Villa were demanding around £7m for him from Spurs in the summer.
AV, what is your opinion on this move? Any hope? Up the Boro!
**AV writes: He does appear to be available but only a few weeks ago he made it clear he wasn't interested in a loan move down to the Championship.