Boro's Political Powder Keg Set To Blow?
THERE will be a political time bomb ticking under the Boro dug-out tonight. If Boro fail to beat Leicester - preferably with a cavalier swagger and a bagful of goals - then it will go off.
Make no mistake, like the seconds evaporating while Gareth Southgate sweats over which wire to cut with his clippers, patience among punters is running out fast.
An incendiary faction of overtly and increasingly vocal anti-Southgate rebels are primed to finally explode after fizzing away in powerless frustration for months.
Last season's stark relegation stats piled up powder kegs of discontent and this term's bright early impetus seeming to splutter out has not helped defuse the situation.
Defeat against a newly promoted side - one that has battled back from the prospect of financial meltdown under the uncompromising leadership of a steely ex-Boro skipper - could be the spark that blows it apart.
Support for the gaffer, fragile even going into the season, has been crumbling fast. A good start bought a breathing space but a humiliation at home to West Brom showed Boro to be now well short of the only team who finished below them in the Premiership, then a sickeningly familiar late submission at Coventry has raised the temperature again and the boss is firmly in the firing line.
That may be unfair. Boro have had their best start for 15 years, have taken a healthy 17 points from nine games and are just three points off the automatic promotion places as we come up to the ten game mark that many people take as the first checkpoint. A win tonight would mean a two point a game average so far and project that forward and you get a tally of 92 - a figure that has been good enough for automatic promotion in nine years out of the last ten.
But fair doesn't come into it. The current table is only measured over the shortest possible span. Project the stats back over the past year - or more - and the number-crunching looks pretty damning.
Even this term's figures can be painted bleakly: Boro's wins have all been over teams in the bottom 13 - Ipswich, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Swansea, Sheff Wed - while the four games against teams in the top 11 - West Brom, Bristol City, Sheff United and Coventry - have produced just two points and three goals.
So yes, Boro are within touching distance of the automatic promotion slots and yes, they have at times looked clearly a cut above the average Championship sides - but it is equally possible to colour it darkly and defeat tonight would have the masses rushing to grab the jumbo sized black crayons. Those that don't already carry them around.
The increasing disaffection with Southgate has been the political subtext of almost every result, signing and behind the scenes twist for the best part of a year. No debate has been possible on Planet Boro that doesn't pretty quickly boil down to the question of the manager's position, his security and the succession.
In fact, the question threatens to overshadow and undermine almost any balanced post-match debate about performances and prospects of every game in what is still very much shaping up to be a promotion campaign.
The only Southgate free zone came after the stirring 3-1 win at Sheffield Wednesday. That game apart almost every car journey home, ever mesaage board barney and every phone-in - even on the normally on-message BBC Tees - has danced, not always gracefully, around the political fragility of the boss's position. It is not going to go away.
Many expected - demanded - Southgate to get the chop over the summer as the pay-back for relegation and as a clean break ready for rebuilding and renewal.
That he didn't has only served to raise the stakes. And that ultimate supremo Steve Gibson has subsequently and repeatedly reiterated his support for his manager has taken away any prospect of smooth controlled change, it has hardened the battle lines and forced the rebels hand. It has also set many against Gibson himself, a new feature on the political landscape after two decades of unquestioned authority.
Layers of loyalists have simply walked away and refused to renew while Southgate is in charge - and that's not a decision taken lightly by battle scarred long-time diehards.
And they have made no secret of it. The position has been made perfectly clear in the pubs, on message boards and notably directly to Southgate's face by an irate caller on a tetchy pre-season Radio Brownlee phone-in Q&A.
It has also had a marked effect on gates and atmosphere this term. Crowds have dipped below the 20,000 mark for the first time - and tonight could be a new Riverside league low - and the matchday experience is fast becoming a simmering, angry silence punctuated by localised pockets of defiant enthusiasm and the occasional yelp of anguish. Most appear to be just waiting.
Although it is only anecdotal evidence dozens of irate and despairing fans have made it clear to me the reason they are not going to matches: the manager. For many that that issue is just the final straw after years of frustration going back via the gradual dismantling of the dream, the Cardiff Cup collapse catastrophe, the post- Eindhoven slump and for some right back through the soul-sapping grind of the McClaren era to the exit of Juninho. But the club's decision to stick by Southgate is the one they are pointing to right now, the catalyst for their turn from faith.
The numbers are hard to fathom and they shift by the week as results push people to take sides. There is a significant proportion - anywhere between 30 and 40% by my reckoning - who are totally convinced Boro can not go back up under the current boss and want to see him out no matter what.
They can't be persuaded back into the fold even by a sizzling run of results because they have already decided. In a rerun of the final days of Steve McClaren, for them the die is cast and there is no turning back.
And even if Boro win this one and 'paper over the cracks' - and I for one hope they do, let's keep on papering all the way back to the Premier League - it will only buys a short period of respite until the next defeat, the next late lapse to squander points, the next stuttering narrow win against a side that should be walloped out of sight.
Some, admittedly a minority, take their trajectory to its painful but logical conclusion and actually want the opposition to win in the belief that a heavy Boro defeat will hasten the departure of their Nemesis. We have seen that on here but it is played out in every pub, workplace and Boro supporting home in Gazetteshire and its hinterland.
Worse still for the boss and the club hierarchy though, there is another far more important group in the fan-base who while not openly hostile to Southgate as an article of faith are far from convinced of his ability to sustain a promotion charge, or if he does, to then re-establish the club in the elite.
In order to maintain unity and momentum this majority of waverers - again maybe 30 to 40% of the crowd - need to be kept on board and at least passively behind the boss if the current regime is to have any future - and that can only be done by winning games and winning well. Anything less than the play-offs and that group will evaporate.
Along the way groups of these waverers are peeling off towards the opposition with every set-back and once they switch over it is very hard to win them back. Only resounding wins and inspirational displays at home, good results and staying firmly in the promotion shake-up can head off a wholesale defection to the opposition.
Of course there will always be people who back the boss to the hilt, either ex officio, or because he is Steve Gibson's choice and that is good enough for them; or because they can't seen how given the financial constraints what the alternative strategy would be no matter who was in the dug-out or who would do better; or because they believe he has what it takes to be a succesful manager and given the resources - as in his first season - he can make a good first of it.
This group could be as high as 30% too, although after a poor performance and demoralising results that are a strategic set-back they are hard to find. Unlike under McClaren there are very few pro-Gateists who are still willing to make an articulate public case for the boss on footballing terms - and when they do they are swiftly surrounded and shouted down by passionate antis who have a long crime sheet and well rehersed case for the prosecution plus the scent of blood in their nostrils.
But that is not the key political battle-ground. It is the waverers that count - and right now the antis are winning the battle for their hearts and minds.
***This is the DJ Semtex Crisis Club Remix of today's Big Picture Column
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Anthony Vickers
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One of Gareth's problems is that, however hard he tries, he and his staff keep providing ammunition for the anti's. A couple of examples will suffice:
1. Since relegation he's signed five players, four of whom warmed the bench on Saturday. This will be used as evidence that he and his scouts still don't have an eye for a player.
2. In last week's Gazette interview Colin Cooper as good as admitted he didn't know what went wrong against The Baggies. This will confirm to the anti's that have not been learned from previous occasions when the Boro didn't turn up. 'What other lessons have, in reality, not been learned either?', they will ask.
Certainly, the ASL (Anti-Southgate League) will find many more examples to turn their way. The only way to hold them up is to keep winning games and becoming ultra-careful with the PR. Sadly, these days when the Boro speak most comments are treated with derision.
Sadly you are right. When Boro win tonight it will make no difference. It won't win GS any more fans and the GateOuters will just go home and get back to sharpening their axe ready for next week or say that the players have won in spite of him or say their nanas could beat Leicester.
I just wish we could see the passion that Gareth showed on the pitch off it. His pre match and after match interviews are cliche ridden and fail to inspire. I want to hear him angry, questioning refereeing decisions, I want to hear passion in his voice that matches the passion of the fans. Cut out the excuses and start to learn from the same mistakes that we have witnessed for three seasons.
Come on Boro
It still remains to be seen if Southgate can cut it as a manager - let alone as a bomb disposal expert.
Maybe even Scoredraw might even contemplate attending tonight to get behind Gareth as he stands poised with the wire clippers - albeit with a large inflated paper bag in readiness to induce a heart attack should Southgate choose correctly (needs must).
However, it's going to prove an extremely difficult evening for Southgate and his team - especially on the back of the WBA thrashing and the unspeakable surrender at Coventry.
I'm not sure either whether the team or even the crowd would be able to lift themselves if we fall behind - but an early goal for Boro is almost a must and preferably a 3-0 lead to keep Gareth's inflationary cliche theory on track.
So I predict three possible scorelines: with an early goal either 4-1 or 1-4 depending who scores first - otherwise 0-0 - though I await the prediction of the true oracle that is Forever Dormo.
By the way AV, you may wish to recalculate your three point haul as rather unfairly you don't receive a bonus point for leading 2-0 at half-time.
Sad to say, I'm one of those who when Southgate was appointed thought it a mistake. As a manager he reminds me of David Platt: he talks a good game but simply does not appear to cut it as a manager. This is a shame because he's a decent, hard-working, loyal and intelligent bloke.
I'm not the type to barrack at matches or to ring in demanding a man's head because as fans we're far too quick to want a boo-boy dropped and a great white hope to be installed.
Thing is, we've already blown automatic promotion. You can't get those top two spots after dropping this many points. The only question left is, can Southgate do what a good manager does: make the team look like more than the sum of their parts. I see no sign of that having happened yet and see no sign that that will ever happen.
Make no bones about it: we ought to be able to qualify for the play-offs without a manager. If we don't win tonight I don't think Southgate's position is tenable. If we scrape a spawny 1-0 win then fine: you don't expect brilliance at this point just the ability to beat your opponents at home.
Regardless of tonight's result I would like to see Southgate replaced by a pragmatist: someone who knows how to win games in this league. I don't think Southgate is going to cut it as a manager and I think the club is going to pay for that.
**AV writes: We haven't blown automatic promotion. Wolves went up as champions last season and they lost TEN games. Sunderland lost the same under Keane. I think the margins of error are far greater at this level. Losing games now is damaging not so much in terms of the maths but in terms of morale and cohesion.
Well summed up, AV.
The sad state of affairs can all be put down to Steve Gibson's fetish for trainee managers. He himself can't pick em, and trust em to get on and do the job. He's always wanted to control them, even to the extent of signing players they don't want.
We have flirted with success since the Riverside was built, but that success was built on shifting sands. It got washed away every time the tide changed. Spending over the odds on over the hill players. Very bad financial strategy.
The start of this season is ominously reminiscent of last season, a good start going very quickly pear-shaped. We all know how last season ended. Each season under Southgate the team has gotten worse, quality diminished, tactics and substitutions even more bizarre.
We need a vast clearout at all levels of the club. We have the opportunity to rebuild this season, but to do that we need the right people in charge, recruiting the right players in the right positions.
There is no sign of this happening as yet. The longer Gibson keeps that clown in charge, the worse it's going to get. The animosity aimed at Southgate is indeed also starting to turn against Gibson, attendances are shrinking.
We were bad enough to finish second bottom of the premiership (we SHOULD have finished bottom), and our fall from grace looks like continuing. Many fans have made their minds up as to the reasons why, but Gibson calls for Blind faith when he himself is blind to the cause of all our problems. His own ego. He can't pick a good manager and his managers can't pick the good players.
Everyone seems to prefer mediocrity, whilst the fans demand more. They are voting with their feet, the longer the club refuse to accept and address their failings.
Good stuff AV, I think you are right about the importance about tonight. Even up here, home of the Cartoon army I can feel the rumblings spread.
Sadly if we were to win well it will not placate some and that number is growing. My fear is that we could turn into Toon Lite. Some fans think we should stroll this division and then be looking for a top ten finish in the PL. Unfortunately I think any such hope of a top ten finish in the EPL is now way beyond the club. This is not a criticism of the ambition of the club but a sad reflection on the state of English football. If you’re not Multi Billionaire player on the world scale, forget it.
It is this scenario that is at the root of my apathy. If we were to get promoted, so what? To take a beating off Carlos Kickaball and his chums every week.
After Robbo’s first promotion I remember there was real hope (slightly misplaced) that we could join the big boys. And for a while I suppose we did, but only by spending and paying mega bucks. This eventually led us to our present situation.
Whilst I wonder what promotion would bring, I dread the thought of failing to achieve it.
As mentioned yesterday, two glaring Banana skins. Steve Howard, no goals this season. What chance he monsters a full back at the far post any time from the 85th min onwards?
Also Reading, no home wins in the time it takes a woman to get pregnant and give birth. Can we keep the Royals in Labour?
Time to be positive, clean sheet tonight 2-0. And a clean sheet metaphorically speaking at the Madejeski Maternity ward on Saturday.
C’mon boro.
AV - Mr Paylor doesn't mention whether or not Folan will be returning to Hull in today's piece in the Gazette. He's no use to Hull at the moment so he'll probably still be here til Christmas. In the Northern Echo GS mentions having other players in mind but that he has not discussed this with Lamb and Gibson.
Can you shed any more light on the injury situation? Be nice to have Mido around at the moment.
**AV writes: He can't be sent back up to 28 days into a loan and he may be out injured that long anyway. The situation will be reassessed then. They are always looking at other options if the right people become available.
Totally agree AV with your comments. In fact with all comments listed, at least these are constructive as against the anti GS mob on other sites.
GS is on a hiding to nothing, we win the next three games(hopefully) and he'll be berated for the next one we loose.
Nobody thought this league was going to be easy and who amongst us thought the Toon would have the start they have had. Top two is the only option, how many teams finishing 3rd missed out in the play offs?
If it all ends well at the end of the season I think we'll be wishing for a rerun next season because I have doubts we will have the resources to sustain Premiership status.
Hoy! Smogonthetyne, are you trying to put me out of a job?
I'm still sifting through the entrails.
Excellent article A.V. You are so correct in almost all of your comments.
I have wrote on this website for a very long time regarding my concerns about Southgate. I personally think that he has nothing in his make up to be a manager.
For a seasoned England International defender, he does nothing to bolster the defence, his knowledge should have been of paramount importance. his tactical sense is NIL. His man management is NIL. His purchase of players is NIL.
There is not one player he has brought into the club that has been any better than what we have already. He has distroyed many players confidence. Wheater was on the verge of an England cap and playing brilliantly what does he do move him to full back and when that doesnt work DROP HIM. We required a ball winner in mid-field we had Cattermole, stick himout on the right wing. and Steve Bruce gets man of the match out of him in most games. WHAT A DIFFERENCE a manager makes.
My complaint is not about results, win lose or draw. It is against a manager who does not have a clue most of the time. I never wanted him as manager and I still do not.
AV, to get us in the mood could you post a couple of video’s.
For the self Combustibles amongst us they might enjoy Emile Heskey’s late late equalizer at Wembley. Or you could put up Greening's late winner at Filbert Street. That was a cracking finish to the game. I counted the away fans at one stage 116, and we all went bonkers when the winner went in.
So here it is. JUDGEMENT DAY. If the Boro fail to get a win tonight and a convincing one at that as you say AV the powder keg will explode.
I have never been one to berate the manager but where I sit there are plenty of anti GS & SG supporters all waiting for the moment for the club to implode on itself.
I personnaly believe that if we don't win tonight things have got to change and change quickly. SG has got to come down from his ivory tower remove the blinkers and employ a proper manager. No more rookies in this department. Look where its got us.
Another thing, if we don't get a convincing win tonight I can see a lot of the season ticket holders staying away. So very quickly attendances could drop by another 5000.
"**AV writes: We haven't blown automatic promotion. Wolves went up as champions last season and they lost TEN games. Sunderland lost the same under Keane."
Exactly, Vic. My research tells me that our record was exactly the same as this one in 1997/98 at this time, and it took us until December to top the table. Would you prefer gradual progression to the top or instant success before a fall? I know what I'd take.
I know it seems like a long fall from the week I spent at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival (while I was away, Boro clocked up three wins, didn't concede a goal and still had Huth and Tuncay. Maybe I should have stayed there?), but there really isn't much point in dwelling on the past. That is, unless there's a good reason for it; shouldn't Southgate have learnt enough about capitulations from the Carrow Road disaster of January '05?
David Connor:
"We required a ball winner in midfield we had Cattermole, stick him out on the right wing. and Steve Bruce gets man of the match out of him in most games. WHAT A DIFFERENCE a manager makes."
You echo my sentiments about Catts exactly. Although one supporter told me that it looked like he was turning more into the new Robbie Savage than Roy Keane, and don't forget how close Sir Alex was to getting sacked. There are other ways of looking at things.
Then again, I can't help thinking of Martin Jol's removal for Ramos, Ramos's removal for Redknapp, and Ince's removal for Allardyce. As cruel and as unfair as that may have seemed at the time... IT WORKED. Well. For both teams in question.
Finally, SmogOnTheTyne, thanks for reminding me of "Emile Heskey’s late late equalizer at Wembley (and)...Greening's late winner at Filbert Street." Proof, if proof were needed, that breaks do even themselves out. For every Norwich and Coventry capitulation there's a Basle and Steaua. That's life.
I can't be bothered talking about this ALL SEASON... He won't get sacked unless we lose a few in a row and the gates really plummet.
What I want is an answer to a simple tactical question: when facing a five man midfield (Baggies and 2nd half Coventry) we suffer. Please GS tell me you have noticed this and have a plan in place, (especially when we are leading) to drop a striker deep to mark the holding midfielder of the opposition and kill the game.
This is not rocket science but we would be two points better off right now if you had done it against Coventry at the start of the second half. Surely he must be anticipating that the opposition will do something different when they have been outplayed 1st half and be ready to respond? Teams will keep playing this way against us if they see that it works and the better ones will make it work.
Well Gareth this could be your swansong.
There are some things i would do if i were you tonight.
1. Show the passion from the bench as if you are one of the fans (get angry).
2.Get Coyne back in goal
3.Get the back four back to the line up of earlier (St Ledger in for Huth)
4.Sort your bench out to allow you to change format if starting format is not working.
5.Play your strongest team possible.
6.Dont talk to the press
7.Have alternative exit available if it dosnt work.
There that was easy wasn't it.
[A series of disconnected points]
I put myself in the latter (Southgate-supporting) 30%, but then, I live out of the area and don't have to see the demoralising effects the team's regular failures have on most fans.
I like Southgate's cool, rational and consistent approach. I worry however, that these are not the characteristics of great managers (Capello an exception perhaps). Rather, the most important quality of a successful manager is that they would do anything for a win. Encourage cheating, lie, be a hypocrite, defend a thug, attack a correct decision, make snide remarks, play ugly football: anything to win. No-one likes these things, but they're what Ferguson, Mourinho et al are willing to do to help their team win. Would Southgate?
Finally, I like the way you've split the crowd there AV, but you're going to have to be explicit as to where you place yourself. And perhaps after the last two games, those who would refer to a win tonight as 'papering over the cracks' shouldn't necessarily be mocked.
**AV writes: I would place myself as a professional observer trying to make some objective sense of the key emotive issues in a rapidly changing political landscape shrouded by a fog of parochial passion. With an colourful turn of phrase.
You could bring Fabio Capello to the Riverside and his first defeat in charge would undoubtedly bring howls of derision from the Chicken Run.
Boro 'fans' would do well to get used to the fact that our moment in the sun has passed, and that the dictat of top flight football finances simply precludes a local-boy-made-good from delivering a top six Premier League team. Boro’s efforts on the Academy front are certainly laudable but are hardly likely to produce a whole squad of Premier League quality.
The notion that certain factions would rather see Middlesbrough lose (or even worse be relegated) to get their mean-spirited way astounds me, but then my last visits to the Riverside have found me increasingly irritated by the prevalent surrounding negativity.
The Riverside Revolution has been well and truly quelled by the burden of over expectation and subsequent deflation with the failure to achieve unrealistic goals.
Perhaps the over-elation of this period was brought about by the 'new fan' element precipitated through the advent of Bryan Robson and a shiny new stadium, and now that the gloss is fading, so are the numbers on matchday.
Indeed, how many of these nouveau-Boro had begun to disappear in their droves in previous PL seasons, to enslave themselves to the attraction of beer and the Al-Jazeera darkside?
There is a malaise about MFC which predicates that neither side, fans nor club, can begin to act in harmony. It is, I believe, almost reaching the point of irreconcilable breakdown when the saviour of the club is branded as ‘blind’ by (probably) the very people who hailed his audacious act of belief in his hometown club.
So what is to be done? There are many who express their views here and who identify the problems facing us. Not many, however, have solutions that don’t feature sacking the Manager or the Board or both.
Realistically, Boro doesn’t have many options - little or no money, limited marketing possibilties & dwindling support, all the classic hallmarks of a club in decline. A decline it would seem, that is being orchestrated by the some of those people who claim to be supporters.
We must ask ourselves, would we rather find another pastime for Saturday afternoons or should we ditch the politics and rouse from this pernicious slough of despond and get behind the club, thick or thin, one for all, all for one…
AV: It is painful to watch - I feel sorry for Gareth. I think deep inside he knows the answers to his problem but can't bring himself to face up to them.
He ought to reinstate McMahon and Coyne, drop Aliaidare and introduce St Ledger slowly. God help anyone who plays behind Yeates he has no defensive attributes. A happy ending would be 'the good guy' Gareth prevailing, 10 wins on the trot and promotion.
I would enjoy nothing more than to be proved wrong about him but I think it's unlikely. If I'm honest I'd like the team to do something to help him but he needs to pick the right players.
I'm with Iain McCullagh. I'm pig sick of the same discussion week in week out and we are not yet even in October.
If we win the scoredraws of this world curl back under their stones until the next setback when the knives come out again.
What I do know is that we have a lot of young and quite inexperienced players in the team.They need ENCOURAGEMENT and SUPPORT tonight. Whatever your view of the manager is if you are at the game tonight get right behind the players and hopefully we will see them win. Leicester have only lost one away and that was 1-0 Newcastle so it will be a tight game.
Hear hear Andy Oslo.This is the most perceptive post I have read for a long time about where we are as a club.
Stockton Red: as a non-attending, bed wetting, whingeing, hate filled , I promise not to 'curl under my stone'. I look forward to more exchanges, you being such a rational chappy. I do think your attempt to blame those who would replace Gareth for the failures on the pitch is less than persuasive.
AV, would it be possible for you to give a brief summary as to the T's&C's of the Championship's loan system. Number of loans per season, maximum periods etc.
**AV writes: There is a document knocking about. I'll see if I can find it. Off the top of my head it is a maximum of four under age of 23, four over 23 and no more than five in the matchday squad; standard loans are for 93 days and emergency loans 28 days although both can be extended on appeal in extenuating circumstances. Keepers can be loaned for shorter spells with special permission.
I've just been catching up with the Coventry match on video (http://tinyurl.com/y8zaypy) and despite lot's of replays I can't convince myself that Emnes was anything but offside and interfering with play when Williams scored.
I've not seen any mention of this in the press or on TV but, if I'm right, we might have been lucky to get away with the draw. What do others think?
**AV writes: Didn't a defender play the ball last when it fell to him? And anyway, you are not 'active' and offside these days unless you touch/try to play the ball.
Dormo, apologies for stealing your thunder, what’s the official prediction?
Andy In Oslo, spot on mate, couldn’t agree more and with you and Stockton Red. Whatever our thoughts on Managers, Chairman, Balance Sheets Parachute payments, lets forget about that for one day. There’s a game tonight, remember we are supporters and get behind the lads.
Is it too early to start planning the Untypical Boro get together/stroke promotion party?
Come on Boro.
"Andy- Oslo
Realistically, Boro doesn’t have many options - little or no money, limited marketing possibilties & dwindling support, all the classic hallmarks of a club in decline. A decline it would seem, that is being orchestrated by the some of those people who claim to be supporters. "
The lack of money and dwindling support can be put down to the appointment of Southgate. He has won 27% of his games and lost 43%, averaging very slightly over 1 goal per game. This is one of the worst records of a Middlesbrough manager for years. This will be one of the reasons the crowd tonight will be around the 18000 mark.
**AV writes: I would place myself as a professional observer trying to make some objective sense of the key emotive issues in a rapidly changing political landscape shrouded by a fog of parochial passion. With an colourful turn of phrase.
Watch out for the splinters in that fence AV!
Andy Oslo:
Like AV you over analyse. Maybe like AV you shirk from calling for someones head ? (except Mido & Shawy).
Middlesbrough hasn't suddenly had something added to the water to make people pernicious, mean spirited and hate filled. Boro is the ONLY club in UK where he would survive three years.
Although there may something in my 'water' comment because GS biggest fans come from weird and wonderful places like Brisbane, Berks, Oslo Baku and Stockton. You are over analysing - he's been given enough time and money - stop blaming the Boro crowd.
I was all for sacking Southgate last January and then again in the summer, however after the fire sale after relegation and the promising start this season I was prepared to give him another chance.
The problem now is that he and his coaching staff do not seem to be able to learn from mistakes made in games. They do not seem to know what the best team is or how to change the team when things go wrong.
Boro have made massive strides since 1986 and I do not think any Boro fan wants to see the club go into decline.
Tonight could be a watershed moment in GS managerial career. A win is a necessity, anything else could lead to ugly scenes around the riverside.
C'Mon Boro
There is a lot of pain expressed on this board and it's sad though understandable. Even the GS and SG supporters cannot be enjoying what they are seeing on the pitch and more importantly the length of time they've had to watch it.
We don't seem to have any other outlet, as all our complaints, all our pleas, fall on deaf ears. We are effectively powerless to affect our club's decline.
All the support in the world over 90 minutes will matter not a jot unless the team selection, tactics and substitutions are right. Only Southgate can ensure that, and on his track record, no one has any confidence in him doing that.
It's men against boys, as usual, and obviously until some men are in the team, it will remain so.
Some seem to think it is Boro's 'business plan', or 'strategy', but the club has been sliding unerringly for three years and it is difficult to blame GS for that. He and the players have had their legs cut from underneath them, that's why the lack of backbone and fight, it doesn't matter what they do, it can never be enough.
The responsibility lies purely with the chairman, who must be praying for miracles. To say that the club's plight is down to relegation and losing £26 m is absolute hogwash.
I hope GS and the 'squad' prevail, but who knows what January will bring, and heaven forbid that they have to face up to the premiership again. The chairman's lost it, but will never be forgotten for what has gone before. He's living in his own, do nothing fantasy world. Maybe it's all he's got.
Well chaps...it's a difficult one. What sort of spirit will be on display this evening?
1. "We must put this right, and prove we have the quality and determination to go up. Let's get at them" enthusiasm, or
2. "Oh my God! I hope someone can put the ball in their net tonight because if they get up our end and score we will be in serious trouble, and the crowd won't like it either".
I am more than nervous about the whole thing, and that makes it difficult to trust the runes. I will go for 2-1 (though in reality would gleefully accept anything giving us three points). And I am a little concerned about Fryatt's influence up front for them.
AV, I didn't expect this question of Emnes being offside when Williams scored to be clear cut and I don't think it is!
I've had a look at the clip a couple more times and it doesn't look like a defender touches the ball after Williams shot, so that's the first question out of the way.
You'd also suggested that "you are not 'active' and offside these days unless you touch/try to play the ball" and this is where the doubts come in. The best explanation I've found is on the BBC website (http://tinyurl.com/yez2ugf) where they say:
"However, a player doesn't necessarily have to touch the ball to influence the play. They are still offside if they are judged to be: * Interfering with an opponent - If an attacker interferes with an opponent by either preventing them from playing or being able to play the ball, then they are offside. This could be done by blocking the goalkeeper, or obstructing their line of vision."
It is here where I think Emnes could easily have been adjudged offside as he was or was close to blocking the keeper's view.
Are there any refs out there who can clarify this because I think we might still have been lucky (for once!!).
'The lack of money and dwindling support can be put down to the appointment of Southgate.'
So our support / relative wealth hasn't been declining since about 2002 then? The lack of insight by some lazy people is astonishing. Still, if BS can be used to add to the stench of negativity then why not eh?
Great post btw Andy in Oslo.
Andy (Oslo); spot on. Snore draw; just when you were 'upping your game' a little (Gate take note) you have to go and spoil it; For 'over analysing' substitute 'well reasoned'...
It's nearly got to the stage where it's no fun any more now. These negative waves are getting me down.
We are in for an exciting promotion battle this season, possibly even culminating in a glorious triumph at Wembley and a return to the Premiership but certain "fans" with an anti-Southgate agenda are determined to see only the negatives.
A run of the mill midweek home game against Leicester is turned into D-Day. Unnescessary pressure is put on a young team, with virtually every game made into a make or break for the manager.
My god, this is turning into one of the best seasons we've had for years. Enjoy it!
Do all the anti GS posters really think that if we had a different manager we would be in a better league position. Whoever is in charge would still only have the players at the club right now, plus any loanees that other clubs don't want.
Didn't go to the game. Couldn't face the journey from Lancashire in the light of recent performances. What a good decision that turned out to be. Somehow I think there will be several more games I don't travel to.
Sky said we were less than impressive. What's made it even worse is that all the other leading sides lost or drew - what a chance we have missed tonight to make up ground.
I'm prepared to give Southgate 2 more games to get his act together. If we're not back on track by then - and I mean a minimum of 4 points from 2 games - I shall definitely rejoin the Anti-Southgate league. My knife-sharpener is at the ready.
SATURDAY "I DEMAND " result a draw
TUESDAY " I DEMAND" result a loss
NOW WHAT?
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. (And I'm not just talking about the attendance.)
Is there really much more to be said? I didn't even see tonight's game and I know that opposition sides have found us out already. Yet more reasons for Huth to grin in his safe Premiership position, and for the anti-Southgate brigade to have more ammunition...
Worse still, the Barcodes appear to be having the Championship presented to them on a platter.
Right - Let's get rid shall we!! Utter rubbish, I remember Southgate saying last season and this season that we will be one of the fittest teams in the division, if that's the case why do we always concede late on... Concentration?? That's gotta be down to managment and coaching.
Who is our number 1? Coyne on the bench??
We could easily be out of the play-off positions after Saturday. Gibson get yourself a pair of balls (I don't mean mitre) and sack a manager you hung onto Robson and McClaren too long and now Southgate.
Oh hold the press....... Valuable lessons have been learnt tonight!!
Its £23 or £26 quid for a ticket, Crowds are not just dropping because of Managers or results, It is price, Even if its £15, People are now working whenever possible, doing hobbies, betting, Only the odd Dad takes the kids as a treat every now and then, Otherwise its just retired people, and kids. The bubble, has drifted away.
Boom.
AV - I suggest you turn off the server now, and then cancel all leave for your IT Boys, because your system is going to BLOW when the dust settles.
Has he not gone yet?
Patrick Steele.
The £26mill blown on Mido, Alves, Emnes, Aliadamare & Hoyte is a recent fact. In 2002-2003 we averaged 31000+ and in Mac's last season over 28000 (without £99 pound tickets making the numbers up). Tonight we had 18500.
The appointment of Southgate was a big mistake and four seasons on we are losing to Leicester at home and failing to beat Cov away. Southgate is still learning and if some of you are happy with that then fine but some of us would like an improvement. The stock reply from Southgate fans is "who would you have then?". Stevie Wonder and Lassie would be an improvement.
A few thoughts having just got home and got halfway down a beer, my wife thinks I am barmy getting home at 12.15am. She may have a point.
Boro started off very slowly until the penny dropped after half an hour and O'Neill moved into centre midfield. A wise move until you realise that our biggest threat, Johnno was moved to right wing with Arca moving to left wing.
This a very neat Boro because they played in 30 minute portions so after an hour the penny dropped and Yeates came on for Arca so we reshuffled midfield. Wrong. Yeates went to left wing and Johnno stayed right for the last half hour.
You cannot make it up. The best midfield player stuck on the right for half an hour and the best left winger stuck on the right for the next hour. Jinky was double and triple marked as they waited for him to cut inside.
We showed little life until the last 20 minutes or so and cannot bleat about luck because we didnt earn any.
It was a huge surprise when we conceded a sloppy goal in the last ten minutes. Doh!
This is after the Leicester game..Why did we start with 5 defensive players, only three midfielders??? we were out number in mid field as you would expect and we would be defending,because thats what we were prepared for..How can you win games like this?
I checked Cardif's line up two defensive players...5 midfield players and two strikers...(Won 6-1).This team was prepared with an attacking game plan.
Nuff said ..Mr Gibson, change is needed.
G.W
I agree, you're absolutely spot on ! The reasons for the decline are obvious since GS became manager, poor management, poor player decisions, lack of passion from the team, coaches and the manager and waffling while Rome burns.
GS has burnt through well over 50 million on HIS player choices since he took over so time's up.
Sack the Manager.
A quote on BBC SPORT From Southgate:
"If fans want to react like that so be it. I will take whatever stick that is coming my way. I understand the frustrations. Expectations are high here - people expect us to go straight back up - but we have had some under-par results and performances.
"But we need some perspective. We are still only three points off a promotion place and still very much in it."
To all of you Southgate fans including especially JOHNDD49 surely you have had enough of this totally inept manager by now. We have only played 3 decent teams all season we have not scored a goal against them at home and conceded 6.
Leicester had not even won away from home this season. This was another game we should have won, but all the same old failings and yet another late goal.
IF YOU DONT GO NOW SOUTHGATE I DONT THINK YOU EVER WILL YOU ARE PATHETIC AS A MANGER AND ALL OF THOSES WHO SUPPORT YOU IN "BLIND FAITH" ARE THE SAME.
Then only good thing about the result is that not many other teams picked up points. WBA got beat away from home, so what does that now say about their 5-0 drubbing here.
Also if Newcastle win tonite then we are 8 points behind them - the equivilent of them losing 3 games and we winning 3 to make up the defiect. NOT LIKELY on the displays so far from BORO.
To GROVEHILL above - a new manager would get them playing differently. Dont you realise they are playing to Southgate and his coaches instructions. COME ON GET REAL. The crowd gave him exactly what he deserves, it has been a long time coming, and it will continue till he goes and the sooner the better.
Gibson is treating the fans of Middlesbrough as fools, by refusing to replace Southgate.
The management team at Middlesbrough has not done it over the last 3 years ans does not look like it will do it this year. Bring an Experienced manager in immediately Gibson and that may restore some of the fans faith in you.
Or are you too busy now with your Hotel and Golf Course at Rockcliffe park to bother what the fans thinks anymore? If you love the Boro as you stated in last weeks Gazette, then do the right thing and get rid of Southgate. The fans will start voting with their feet shortly you'll see.
The first 70 minutes typified everything about MFC that has been highlighted on here for the last 3 years (I won't bore everyone with listing them as less is more as they say), but special mention has to go to the by now complimentary last 10 minute Boro freebie.
One word now sums up MFC: IMPLOSION!
It will get an awful lot worse before it gets better and the board are now in for a very rocky ride. The peasants are well and truly revolting, there were a few unsavoury incidents last night amongst exchanges between the home fans.
Abuse will now become the norm sadly until reality instead of irresponsible blind faith is grasped in the boardroom. There are more than just Gareth Southgate to blame for what is currently happening and right now there is a growing swell who have set their sights a lot higher than Gareth Scapegoats scalp!
Dave Connor; you dont change do you! Those who support Southgate are pathetic eh? Just like those who said Schwarzer was a busted flush old son. My, how wrong YOU were on that one.
Thanks for the facts, although I think we were all 'alive' to those!! For what its worth, I have been desperate for Gate to succeed and have supported him. Now though, I just cant see how we're improving. 10 games played, late goals conceded in 5 of them. Square peggism, new signings relegated to the bench already.
What is glaringly obvious is the amount of poor signings Gate has made. Whichever way you look at it he has wasted a lot of money. I know his hands were tied to a greater degree than his predecessors but what money he has had has largely been squandered. I dont blame him for Alves; that one was done over his head.
I also blame KL/SG for allowing a transfer policy over many years that was bound to get us where we are today. Old players, no resale value = trouble. If we had debts of £80+ million why the hell did we buy Alves? The whole malaise surrounding the club has been developing for years, and has been allowed to happen by the two at the top. This squad is good enough to challenge for the top two and in truth that is what it's doing but not to the expected standards.
However, time after time the same old failings occur and Gareth seems unable to address these. This troubles me deeply, especially as he was a prime mover during my happiest time as a Boro fan. I'll never forget him holding the cup aloft that February afternoon but maybe it is time for Southgate to bid us all adieu.
(AV; please use this on the new thread if you think it more appropriate. Cheers mate, Andy
Thank you Andy
It is not me who just says this the board is full of it. HE IS PATHETIC AS A MANGER. I am entitled to my opinion.
Andy the rest of your comment is very good.
Even Steve Gibson must see that the customer is always right. If he doesn't he wont have many left and who is going to buy this unled lot to keep Boro alive. Loyalty is fine so why not be loyal to the fans
Boro fans are not going because its not good value . Its just not worth it . This fact will eventually make all the decisions that are needed .If numbers decline further it will be back to the bad old days. It may already be too late only time will tell .
The Boro team under a decent manager would be very different. The players we have targeted or signed would be very different. In essence Gareth Southgate despite financial restrictions is still very much responsible for the dire state of our football club at the moment.
The fact he keeps saying we are only 3 points off an automatic spot and fails to mention that we are only one point above tenth.
My Boro team would be
GK Jones (Southgate should never have let Turnbull leave)
RB Williams (A top FULL BACK)
CB St Ledger
CB Wheater
LB Bennett (Should always have been in front of Grounds. Saw Bennett play last pre season at York and he looked immense then, Southgates inability to spot good players from right undewr his nose is the only reason he has only just got a game. Don't forget Southgate preferred to play Jack Johnson instead of Bennett last year. Good judgement as to who is the better player)
LW Johnson
CM Digard
CM O Neil (Far better suited to the middle of the park. It gets him far more involved in the game)
RW Emnes (Signed as a right winger, looks far better on the wing, his lack of strength clearly makes him unable to play up front yet Southgate persists with it. His pace would scare the life out of full backs in this league. Johnson and Emnes on the wings would be brilliant)
CF Lita
CF Aliadiere
Sorry i know the strike pairing is poor but Harewood just went on loan to Newcastle and he would be a great bet for this division. Instead Southgate targeted a useless flop called Folan who has never scored and never will score.
A decent manager would have snapped Leeds' hands off for Jermaine Beckford. Instead we spent our money on another centre back.
So much of our current predicament is down to Southgate. The inability to know what constitutes a quality player. The inability to play players in their best positions. The inability to change a game through his tactics and substitutions. I know AV you said that the fans are divided but for that reason alone surely that is a reason to get rid of a manager. Fans make a football club and this football club is shriking by the match. 18000 at the last game, how many at the next? and this is before you take into account all his flaws that are mentioned above and that no fan no matter how staunch a Southgate fan can deny. Ive said before if you look at his signings in the last 2 years only Emnes and St Ledger started the last game. That is a dismal, but telling fact of his lack of ability in the transfer market.
As one who moved away due to education &work I have seen the Boro at many grounds: Ayresome, Riverside, Anfield, Goodison; I appreciate what SG did in saving the club, I only have one thought for SG, GS & others: how is it a team managed and coached by International standard defenders ship late goals; and a club that erected a statue to Clough do not seem able to hit a barn door from six yards {mem- the aim is to put the balll in the net and not hit 1.the goalpost or 2. the keeper}?
For medical reasons my recent football viewing has has been 1.tv 2. web highlights; My most recent live football viewing was at a ground infamous for zonal marking:why mark a zone? when did a zone last score a goal???