Southgate's Struggle With Boro Boos Culture
GARETH Southgate must start winning games - and fast - if he is to beat the boo boys.
The jeering at the end of Boro's Championship curtain-raiser with Sheffield United was a political hand-grenade rolled under the dug-out. It is a taste of things to come in what may be a tetchy season of uncivil war in the stands. Tensions have reached critical mass. Very critical mass.
On the surface such a display of widespread discontent after the opener may seem a harsh and hasty judgement. Boro had fought out a goalless draw against exactly the type of physical team it was predicted would batter them at this level and shown a string of positives: a higher tempo than before, genuine width, a solid defence and the kind of passion, energy and - gasp! - tackling that, had it been seen in the final few weeks of last term may well have seen us kick off next week still in the Premiership instead of making the long trip to Swansea.
The team may have lacked a cutting edge but it certainly wasn't lacking commitment, work-rate or endeavour, the normal prompt for jeering. On balance, a point against a side whose last game was a play-off final and who are among the promotion favourites again can't be all bad.
But that was not what the booing was really about.
Neither was it about the players. No-one, not even the most cynical chicken-runner could seriously build a case for barracking rock solid Robert Huth and Wheater at the back; or new boys Mark Yeates and Danny Coyne who had excellent debuts; or makeshift midfielder Rhys Williams. Even scapegoat-elect Jeremie Aliadiere got stuck in. He even won a few headers. Against Chris Morgan! A press-room wag quipped Boro had pulled off a heart transplant that Christian Barnard would be proud of.
Neither is it just because there is a endemic boos culture gripping the game as a whole with impatient and overly demanding fans voicing anger at the drop of a point, as the gaffer has suggested, though there is undoubtedly some truth in that.
It is true also that some of the booing was the result of retrospective rage at Boro's timid relegation. With no home friendlies this was the first chance at the Riverside to register a protest at the end of the Premiership glory years.
But what was central to the audible anger was the glaring lack of major change over the summer - on or off the pitch. On it the problems that most fans identified as the causes of relegation remain. Against the Blades there was plenty of pretty approach play but no teeth - two shots on target in 90 minutes at home - and simmering supporters are frustrated, mystified and angry this most pressing of issues has not been resolved and that has led them to question the entire direction and strategic thinking of the club.
But, and there's no skirting around the issue - the key reason for the booing was that the key off the field change the dissidents are demanding has not been delivered: they want shot of Gareth Southgate. Nothing else will do.
And this is not the work of a small unrepresentative group of big mouth mavericks, nor of the radio moan-in ranters and bar room bores who are bitter and hostile as a default. It goes far wider and deeper and is now a potentially explosive part of the crowd.
There is now a large minority - at the very least - of supporters in the avowedly anti-Southgate camp who have decided that only his removal can put the club back on track. They do not accept the arguments about financial determinism, corporate restrictions and the boss having at least one hand tied behind his back, they do not buy into the notion of collective responsibility and reject the idea that Southgate should be backed ex-officio because he is Steve Gibson's choice... and ultimately that is a direct challenge to the long established Boro status quo.
It must be stressed that the dissidents are loyal fans rather than habitual wreckers. They are sincere and passionate in their support of the club, many with a lot of years and several relegations behind them and often they are struggling with a role as reluctant rebels and the uncomfortable logic of opposing Steve Gibson. I don't think anyone wants to slip into kneejerk Geordieism. I don't expect any badly spelled banners.
The antis do not believe they are undermining the team by booing, just pushing the club and manager into a corner through the traditional mechanism of discontent, ultimately the only matchday muscle angry fans have ever had. It is a desire to save the club from itself that drives them and they find the loyalist position - the blind faith option - as being more damaging in the long run than speaking out. They think they are the real fans.
And there's the problem. It is driven by strongly held beliefs underpinned by a firm commitment to the history and tradition of the club. When it comes to wild-eyed zealotry football fans are right up there with the Jesuits and the Taleban so having taken a stance they wlll not be easily swayed.
This will not go away. It is not a short term fit of pique that will fade with a win or two. For the dissidents the die is cast. Most have publicly declared themselves to friends and family, at work and in the pub and for them there is no going back on that. They want him out and will now agitate tirelessly for that end.
Southgate was told as much to his face during the live BBC Tees phone-in last month: "I haven't renewed because of you and the club have no chance of achieving anything while you are in charge." There was no mincing of words. Not a shred of embarrassment at talking direct to the object of the dissent. It was a political position in a nutshell.
The gaffer was articulate and reasoned in his response and respected the irate callers position and insisted he would do his best to win the refuseniks over. But he can't. They won't be won over. They won't be won over by victory at Swansea or Scunthorpe because that is the bare minimum they expect.
But every defeat, every dropped point, every dismal display - especially at home - will be placed squarely at his feet, will strengthen their resolve and swell their numbers.
Every victory will be despite him, not because of him and will be credited to the players.
Victories will not win back a single one of the dedicated anti-faction, it will just buy a short respite until the next set-back when the battle will resume.
There is a large faction of fans who have been dead set against him from day one. Yet another rookie, no matter how popular a player, was not the 'top drawer' manager the chairman had promised in the aftermath of McClaren's exit after the UEFA Cup final.
Others have gradually joined the fledgling opposition over the past three years as the post-Eindhoven hangover turned into a fully fledged post-Cardiff nosedive citing a crime sheet that includes "failure to manage big names," "inept transfers," "square-peggism", "inability to motivate," "clapping" and the damning inability to "learn lessons" and call for his own head in post-match interviews.
It is a depressing pattern we have seen here before with both Bryan Robson and Steve McClaren. Once people have made the conscious leap to publicly join the opposition they do not return. The political problem festers and spreads infects the body politic until the boil is lanced one way or another. It is the life cycle of a manager.
Robson ushered in an age of Wem-Boro-ley glory and brought in a string of world class stars to spark the euphoria of the Riverside Revolution but the early universal optimism quickly fizzled out as the pace of progress slowed and the last two years of his reign saw a situation develop that is very similar to the one Southgate finds himself in.
The crowd was split. It wasn't quite the fisticuffs on the Holgate of the last days of Lennie Lawrence but tempers were running high. The fissure pre-dated mass internet access but the old pre-Rivals Fly Me To The Moon board had clear factions while Tim Lloyd's excellent Hong Kong based mailing list (which brought the e-mail system and printer at the Gazette grinding to a halt most mornings as it spat out the previous night's spleen venting) was divided into the Anti Robson Group and Pro Robson Group in an adversarial political fight to the death. There was little middle ground.
The arguments revolved around who would replace him. Should he be given a chance after what he had done up until then? Did he need a stronger, more experienced No2 (Ron Atkinson was the popular choice)? Was he only there because Steve Gibson had a misguided loyalty that would lead to disaster? Should we act or risk relegation?
Robbo was still in his job long after the critical mass had been reached because of Steve Gibson patronage but he was a lame duck after being booed on a final day 'lap of honour' following a 1-1 draw with Watford. That was the season before Gibbo started looking for Terry Venables' number and that made match day atmosphere strained and fractious as every result, every selection, every training ground rumour and mooted transfer target set supporters squabbling amongst themselves again.
We went through the same cycle with McClaren too and his case even a trophy, a highest ever Premier League finish and successive ventures Europe could not stem the tide. Like Southgate he was up against it from day one and despite ushering a new era of scientific professionalism and success new layers of discontent were added regularly with his dour approach to tactics, his flirtations with first Leeds then Newcastle, his deliberate playing of weakened sides, a deadpan and dismissive media persona and digs at uneducated supporters who he appeared to regard as a neccessary evil. And to top it all he commited the cardinal sin of isolating talismanic Juninho and bundling him hastily through the exit door, a move which sealed his fate in PR terms.
Like Robbo the last two years of his reign were played out to a back-drop of booing and increasingly personal vitriol. It got the point where some supporters actively wanted Boro to lose games in the hope it would hasten his departure despite the chairman insisting that would not happen.
The position of his opposition became at times perverse, refusing to acknowledge his tangible success to the point where the real highs were trashed and debased in an attempt to square the ideological circle: the Cardiff triumph was 'papering over the cracks' and only achieved because Arsenal put out a reserve side in the semi, Eindhoven was only reached because of a crazy last throw of the tactical dice and besides, we should never have had to come from three down, the real measure of a team was the league where his had struggled blandly against the drop -although that measure was not enforced the year before when the team had finished seventh; that year the yard-stick was 'entertainment value' which was deemed close to zero .
For the anti-Macs the catalyst for the success in the UEFA Cup was not the manager, nor even the inspirational skipper who proved his leadership credentials by calling clear the air squad meetings in what was seen in some quarters as a dressing room coup. No, it was a tipsy terrace terrorist who beat the stewards and shot a Red Book at the dug-out and became the boo boys pin-up.
The entire UEFA Cup run was not celebrated with the unfettered joy it should have been because the crowd had gone beyond critical mass and many were watching the games grudgingly and looking for sticks to beat the manager with. The crowd had become dysfunctional and divided and estranged from the club hierarchy and arguably has yet to recover fully . There has been little since then to unite and galvanise us.
And now we are very close to tipping point again. The tide of discontent is rising and it threatens to over-shadow what is a watershed season. The booing will become an institutionalised feature as it was in the last dark days of the previous two incumbents and the post-match debate will not be about the match action or player performance or the potential for next weekend but instead will be about holding the manager to account. Even after wins. Every week will bring new demands for his head.
The anti-Southgate positions are entrenched. There is little point in trying to win those over. If the gaffer is to survive he must maintain and strengthen his support among the middle ground waverers and persuade his own bosses that he is still a viable prospect to take the club forward. He needs to buy time and to do that his team must win games.
While the declared dissidents are dominating the debate in the pubs, the phone-ins and on the message boards the battle is for the hearts and minds of the silent majority... if the undecided are still a majority. While there are now very few advocates willing to passionately argue Southgate's corner most of those floating voters will be quietly willing and hoping to be persuaded quickly by results that the gaffer can deliver.
And he must. Relegation has heaped the pressure on the boss. At the lower level there is no wriggle room over our inability to compete financially. Now it will come down purely to results. Southgate must put a team out that are organised, motivated and, most importantly, successful.
Boro must start to win games and win them emphatically. Especially at home. A draw at home to Doncaster, say, will not easily be explained away as one against the beaten play-off finalists.
Promotion is the bare minimum needed to stave off a full scale revolt. And it must be achieved with Boro leading from the front. We must be up in the play-off places - at least - from off and stay there. A slow burn start will not be tolerated. The worst possible scenario is Boro doing just enough to stay in touch with the leaders but not enough to keep the waverers on side, deepening the divide and drawing out the agony.
It is down to the boss to silence the boo-boys and get the crowd back on song.
**THE ABOVE is an extended Chickenrunnaz remix of this week's gazette Big Picture column.
**HERE are a few of the stories and snippets that have caught my eye this week and I think some of you lot will be interested but I haven't had time to discuss at length. I have been pointing browsers at the links via the trendy/nerdy medium of Twitter. If you sign up and "follow" my "tweets" there is loads of this stuff for you to read when you really should be working.
*Proper journalist Simon Kuper reckons he could lead Manchester United into the Champions League as he argues it's money and not managers that deliver success in the Financial Times.
*When Saturday Comes looks at the post-Seadogs squabble as former fans of Scarborough get bogged down in a pyramid civil war.
*Football and culture site 'Sport is a TV Show' explore how full blooded five-a-side sessions helped fuel the post-punk tour de force that was the Clash epic album London Calling
*And from the same site, a brilliant four letter peppered spoof of David 'Damned United' Peace previewing the new Premier League season.
All this and more plus 140 character long signposts to Boro ephemera available daily on the Untypical Boro twitter feed which you can find here.
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Anthony Vickers
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Haha, I was a proud member of the PRG group on Tim Lloyd's mailing list. That brings back some memories, signing up to it when we were allowed internet access at college - exciting stuff in those days. It also kept me up to date when I was at uni.
As for the booing, it may be aimed at Gareth, but it's the players who hear it - and it quite simply does not do any good whatsoever. If people can't put their personal feelings for Gareth aside and it gets in the way of supporting our team, maybe they should consider not going?
What a price to pay for a 5 star golf course! The chairmans' business plan seems to have failed. I never thought that I would question his commitment or loyalty.
As an article that made depressing reading AV.
I know the boo boys still like to vent their spleen because of relegation. As a club are we ever happy? Is it something entrenched in northern expectations? We have won nowt for years. Then along comes this guy who pulls us out of the mire. He brings in Bryan Robson and Wembley finals follow.
The nearest previously was the ZDS, also achieved on a successful youth policy under SG and Rioch. He was hounded out, OK on the back of poor league shows especially for the money invested.
Along comes Maclaren wins the club's first trophy and successful seasons in Europe. SG name sang from the terraces. Highest league position but that wasn't good enough.
The club took a risk on ALVES, a club record transfer, chased by David Moyes and Sven when he was at Man City - his reception against Fulham was brilliant but unfortunately he was poor. But the club paid the money and took a chance.
Regardless what the boo boys think we have no right to success. Ask Blackburn, Norwich , Ipswich and Leeds. All played European football in recent seasons and were are they now? Who would they bring in if Southgate walked tomorrow to win games? We are in danger of turning into the Geordies if I hear MOGGA'S name mentioned again!
IMHO we are two centre forwards and decent midfielder away from winning this league. Southgate plays the game the right way but unfortunately has signed poor centre forwards in particular MIDO (very poor track record with previous employers - especially at £6 million), Jeremy A (if he couldn't get goals at Arsenal why would he for us - very poor substitute for the YAK), ALVES (need I say anymore?) and Tuncay great worker and some sublime finishes but couldn't do it on his own. Real blame lies there.
We were very fortunate under McClaren to have three super centre forwards in The Duke, The Yak and Jimmy. Let's see who we end with at the end of August. I believe that LITA will be a decent acquisition and expect the club to make more signing when the books are balanced.
If we don't and draw against Doncaster and Scunthorpe then complain. But the booing last Friday took away the plaudits Yeates and Williams deserved to receive for their show. One game in and whispers of demonstrations. Let see who we have Sept 1st. Why is the glass always half full fellas?
Apparently Gareth Southgate was recently spotted struggling with his shopping bags in ASDA. Feeling sorry for the beleaguered Boro boss a kindly assistant enquired "Can you manage?" "Get lost!" Replied Southgate.
**AV writes: Ho ho. The old ones are the best.
I refer the right honourable gentlemen to comments I have posted on earlier blogs and message boards.
Fans have adopted their entrenched positions and are digging for victory no matter how pyrrhic the victory may be. As I say about my dear wife, she is always cutting my nose off to spite her face.
AV in over-egging the pudding shocker ;)
I think you are too kind in giving the boo boys some noble rationale AV.
The bottom line is that Boro have among their crowd some of the biggest bitter and twisted congential moaners in the world and they will never ever be satified no matter what the club do or achieve and no matter what manager or players we bring in.
They moaned after Wembley, after Cardiff, after transfer records were smashed for world superstars, they moaned through Europe, they moaned about Eindhoven, they moan about the shirt, the badge and the temperature of the pies. They have moaned for generations and they are proud of their heritage of competitive whinging.
It is something inherent in the insular, parochial, defeatist, blinkered and self destructive mindset of the Teesside people. The area is shrouded in cynicism. In fact, it is the biggest obstacle to pushing Boro (and Teesside as a whole) forward. The habitual negativity in the crowd make it impossible to develop a new vision, direction or model crowd.
It is a bigger problem than Southgate (who can and will be changed) or the finances (which can and will be addressed). If only we could give them all free transfers.
Frustration usually takes a long time to boil over, but once it does.....
Three apprentice managers, one after the other. A chairman who it is suggested is too close to the dressing room. A midfield that has been allowed to weaken since getting rid of Hignett and Juninho.
Why couldn't Robson manage Emerson? He was far too soft in dealing with him. Such a shame, as he could have been the best midfield player in the Premiership.
We had Merson, and then Robson goes and signs Gazza FFS. Carbone impressed, but we decided not to buy him. Are the club deliberately annoying the supporters. We know good players. They obviously don't.
Similiarly with the strike force. We had Ravanelli partnered (hampered) by the limp Beck.We've never had decent strikers since. Branca could have been excellent, but the good old Boro curse took care of him. Alun Armstrong was another crock. All the others were either past it or rubbish.
When did we last have a striker capable of scoring 30+ goals a season? John Hickton, that's how far back. We're lucky if any of them hit double figures these days.
The team has been on the slide for almost TEN years, with no one at the club have the vision or the intelligence to recognise this, and do something about it.
Most of our transfer signings have been poor, or players at the end of their career, costing a fortune. No sell on value, long term contracts on obscene amounts of money. Most have not performed up to standard. They get their money regardless of how well they perform, which is something the FA have ignored for far too long. Pay structures need changing to force players into earning their money.
There is no point in having reserves if you are afraid to play them, and I'd far rather see one of the youngsters in the team, in his rightful position, than someone else played out of position, just to keep a senior player in the side.
Similarly, why do we go for panic buys? Why do we always leave it to the last minute, or too late to sign anyone? We see players we are linked with continually being snapped up by other clubs as we sit on our hands and dither. If players don't want to come to this part of the country, then fine, but why pursue them?
Instead of looking to the Premiership or the continent, look at the lower and Scottish divisions for players. We don't want 'names' we want players that want to be here and can do the job we require of them.
I don't think the booing is mainly an indication of the result but it's a response to the continued failure to look like scoring a goal.
If the fans were only interested in the result they would stay at home and watch ceefax - but they are paying their money to be entertained and have a bit of excitement.
What has made matters worse is since Southgate replaced McClaren and promised 'Total Football' the vast majority of games have been dire.
I think the one saving grace of relegation for the bulk of fans was at least we should see more entertaining football against weaker opposition - I think Southgate promised at least two goals a game as we aimed for promotion.
So the discontent will be focused at Southgate since he is supposed to be in charge of the team - also I'm sure many resent that £50K a week is failing to motivate last year's strikeforce to stop sulking and climb off their sick beds whilst they wait for the queue of suitors to materialise.
Only a run of convincing victories will placate the disgruntled fans and stop them booing - talking a good game will do nothing and lowering expectations is not an option.
For me the Booing is all about what we are seeing on the field. Backroom agenda's or not, there is no excuse for the decline in performances we have witnessed for the past three years. Every season we have taken a step back, the UEFA Cup final should have been a push on. We didnt win, let's get back there and win it next time... instead it has proved to be an albatross.
We are showing no signs of improvement and a lack-lustre home display with only one shot on target against a championship team is not good enough. We essentially have the same squad as last season so we should have beat them. Who have we lost? Mido, who cares? He didnt play for us anyway & Downing was always playing for a move and for me never turned it on in case he got injured (which eventually he did) and jeopordised his move. The rest are as you were.
What surprise's me the most that playing in a 352 formation and being really good at it, why has GS never tried this for us? We have strong centre backs to do it, we have young energetic lads to play as wing backs and by bringing people like Johnson or Yeates in a bit it would give us the creativity we have been crying out for in centre mid since Mendieta was frozen out.
I'm a Boro fan and will be for as long as I'm alive so if GS is in charge and we are playing in the Northern League then id still support them in the same way i would if we had fergie in charge and were winning the premier league. The only thing that annoys me is when you look out there and can see players just trotting about not putting the full effort in. If we lose we lose but at least go out fighting!!
'It is something inherent in the insular, parochial, defeatist, blinkered and self destructive mindset of the Teesside people. The area is shrouded in cynicism. In fact, it is the biggest obstacle to pushing Boro (and Teesside as a whole) forward.'
As a generalisation the above may be accurate, but it doesn't disguise the mistakes of the last 3 years which were the source of Friday's discontent.
We change managers less regularly than some other clubs, including both our pals up the road. Teessiders are stoical as well as being negative.
One shot on goal in 90 Minutes !!!!!!!!......
If we know that we are weak up front. How come we were also garbage at set pieces ? It looked to me like hopefull balls into the box for Wheater ? What do they do in training ?
David
We tried 352 at Stoke and had the usual result. Some pretty football, few strikes on and none into the onion bag, all of course rounded off by the mandatory conceeding to a set piece in the last few minutes. And then it was binned.
Having re-read the piece again we come up with a real difficulty for Gate. If we take it as a given that the home crowd want to see some good football then, without personnel changes, there is little chance of success.
I expressed the view on the last thread that with the type of players we have we will be more effective away from home where we can sit back a bit and play on the break.
At the Riversdie that is exactly what the away team will do. To counter that we need to keep control of the ball and move it around quickly - the famed Arsenal Lite approach, to build up pressure and play in the oppositions half.
We also need someone who can bring other players into the game so that runners can get beyond the front players, someone who can get across defenders and attack the ball.
And here we are in a cleft stick. As Uncle Eric states in his video piece we may be into September before we see a settled line up as Gate struggles to offload players before he can bring new ones in. That of course presupposes that any incoming players survive Crockcliffe.
Gate really is between a rock and a hard place. Three years in and he is still trying to mould a team, he is doing it against a backdrop of relegation and reduced crowds, as pre season went on it became clearer by the match he was no closer to resolving our problems. In the short term there is nothing he can do other than get stuck in.
We can let off steam on here and that is fine because the majority of MFC cant hear the boos from the board. But we are only the vocal silent minority. Huge groups of fans will give their opinions at the ground.
We are likely to get a couple of decent results on the road, we may do poorly at Swansea and Scunny. But what we all fear is a home shocker against Doncaster.
I find it all so sad. These "fans" are trying to make it impossible for Southgate to be successful this season. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy.
Southgate is a good manager. He's our manager and he's staying. Get behind him.
I simply cannot find how booing the players can push the club forward in any way. Regardless who it is aimed at, its the players who it will effect (I think this was mentioned). Can anyone here name for me a time at any other club where it has been of any benefit?
I have said for many years, pre-cup win, that we have always punched above our weight. We are a small club who have at times managed to pull off amazing things.
We do not have a right to be in the premier league, which I honestly feel a lot of fans think, and simply, we deserved to be relegated.
If you cant get behind the club 100% rain or shine then do not go. Do not demoralise the players who on Friday played well against a team that are going to be up there with us at the end of the season. We have a young squad and the venting of frustrations will only make us play worse.
Southgate, I believe, will get us out of this, Rome wasnt built in a day and all that.
Some of his signings have been questionable but everyone makes some shocking signings...even Sir Alex has made some shockers...David Bellion, Juan Veron and Diego Forlan come to mind.
Also, AV if fans are wanting us to lose games in order to get the manager out, then what a sad state Teesside is in.
A.V some of the best writing i have read on the Gazette.
The problem for me is shaking off the negativity, nothing seems to have been addressed and this gives nothing to get optimistic or positive about. We hear the same words and same actions, and nothing has changed since the Cardiff defeat.
If we can all see it, surely the powers that be can too? And if they can, why is nothing done?
We get told we can financially compete, yet we cant buy anyone. How the hell can we hang onto "blind faith?" Faith in what? The sooner we clear out the deadwood and move forward then maybe the negativity can be diminished
I actually WANTED to get relegated just to clear out these overpaid journeymen
but in reality, what happens? We lose our only decent player in Downing
and get stuck with Arca etc
It's been clear for how long that we need a target man. When will southgate learn these "lessons" he keeps talking about?
And my last point - and you can scoff all you like - I would bring back the Duke.
Is there someone at MFC with a business brain? Get him in on a contract with built in bonuses to keep him playing and off the treatment table.
Just do something f'Chrissakes.
wake up MFC
A.V keep up the good work
It is a rather sad reality that we have fans like that. I just wonder where it all comes from... and whats even more sad is that we have moaners about our moaners! Oh the irony
Lawrence had his dark times - I never booed. Neither did I boo in the Robson or McClaren Era. Yet I thought both were very risky choices as managers. Both rookies.
But with Southgate have to boo when its deserved. It is deserved. More than deserved. And has been for 18 months. He is by far the worst of the three rookie managers we have had. He has squandered the clubs funds, demotivated every team he has put out, made good players bad and sold good players for buttons. And worst of all, him and his coaches seem to be clueless when it comes to understanding the whole point of the game. Scoring Goals.
Anyone who does not understand who is being booed here and why, is either not very sharp or hiding from reality. I'm sure the players and Gibson know exactly who is the target here. I think it is justified. Its also honest and neccessary.
I desperately want us to be successful. Or at least perform near to our realistic potential. Under SG we fall way short of even that basic expectation.
I think we have the basis of a good squad and we have a Boro fan as chairman. Unfortunately Southgate has no idea what to do with either the squad or chairman's money.
We are doomed! Is there no one else can play instead of GON? The players don't want to play for Southgate it is now obvious.
AV seems to be back tracking here from the positive nature of his review of the situation following a challenging opening fixture. I hope that this is not because he is being swayed by the crowd because SG certainly will not be.
The only thing that makes light of the damning personal criticism of GS (and increasingly, it would appear, of SG) is to read similar comments from other fans on similar sites of other clubs - yes even Man U.
Who are these people with such knowledge of the game and the business of running a football club and yet clearly far removed from the realities of doing so? Why are their talents going to such waste? Why can't they understand that there are successes and failure in all walks of life and that one sometimes has to experience the bad times to appreciate the good?
Apart from Newcastle the Boro spent more time in the Premier League than any other promoted club and although every season was tough we had the joy of seeing our team compete against the best in the world.
For many reasons (not least the most terrible luck with decisions in December) that pleasure has gone for the time being but surely there is no reason why we can't enjoy this new challenge?
For there to be success in the future there needs to be a united front and the fans have a massive part to play in that.
It was always going to be a nervous start hampered by problems relating to ins and outs but such destructive criticism coupled with the public displays of the kind that shamed so many supporters on Friday will do nothing to help a club no bigger than Leicester, Norwich, Ipswich, Newcastle, West Brom etc. attract and retain good players and return to the Premier League.
Those of you who choose to be so destructive need to demonstrate a bit of patience and give the management and the team at least 12 games. Either that or buy the club!
And here we are in a cleft stick. As Uncle Eric states in his video piece we may be into September before we see a settled line up. Well, as we failed to see one all last season, are we to assume that "Uncle Eric" is suffering a temporary touch of memory loss ?
It's not the boos that will be the undoing of the hapless Southgate but the fact that, like Robbo, he has been sussed by reasonable, objective, patient, long suffering Boro fans, who only need half a brain to realise that like his predecessor he just (as in Apollo Astronaut speak), aint made "of the right stuff" to make it as a football manager.
We know what Robbo is doing now and I know a similar fate awaits Gareth Southgate and it is not a fate that the suppliant sycophants should shed much tears in advance of.
After leaving the managerial ranks at the Boro, with his bank balance suitably swelled the cosy, closed world of professional football will find him a nice little earner, glad handing or opining intelligently on a cosy couch in a TV or radio studio.
No the bigger danger to GS comes in the silent foot steps of hard core loyalists of many years standing, who feel let down by "the best Chairman in football". They feel they have gone back to the future and so decide to vote with their collective feet and reduce the Riverside to an even greater grave yard type atmosphere than has previously been experienced by the ultras that are left behind.
At least they will not be distracted by "unfair" booing whilst contemplating the proposition; is blind faith really all it's cracked up to be?
That was a long one, AV. What happened to "less is more"?
But at the end of the day the supporters make a marginal difference to the success or otherwise of a football club. It is the players and the coaching staff that give rise to success on the field, or to failure. Last season the players underperformed and the coaching and management proved incapable of motivating the players to turn it around.
What I believe concerns many supporters is the fear that, if nothing changes, the coaching and management will still be incapable of motivating whatever squad we put out in The Championship this coming season.
If you owned a business that had seriously underperformed last year, wouldn't you insist on the management team explaining to you their strategy for turning around the business in the next year? Surely you would want to be convinced there was a Plan that had a chance of success? Or would you risk "more of the same"? That would surely mean a lengthy stay in the lower reaches of business (or the professional game).
Would we have been relegated with the same playing staff but, say, Roy Hodgson or Harry Redknapp in charge? Could they have eeked out another three points or so? Back to the old song, maybe, but would you rather be operated on by a surgeon who had plenty of experience in the operating theatre or a good medical student who might turn out to have a good future but who has never wielded a scalpel in anger before?
Three Rookie managers in a row. One maybe. Two might be a coincidence. Three is a policy decision - not a sensible business decision.
Someone once said that political life always ended in failure. With very few exceptions the same is true in football. Alf Ramsey won the World Cup but failed the test with a better team against West Germany despite being 2-0 up in 1970, then later failed to qualify for the 1974 tournament in that memorable game (for Clowns) against Poland. Even the incomparable Cloughie left Nottingham Forest, despite highest level League and European triumphs after 18 (?) years following their relegation to the second tier, from which they have still not recovered.
Let's not criticise the supporters. As you indicate, both sides of the fence contain people loyal to the club and with its interests at heart. If you know in your heart that something is wrong and doomed to failure, do you keep quiet and wait for the car crash, or do you shout out in the hope that disaster might be avoided?
That said, if Gareth could somehow turn it around, I believe the vast majority of fans would be delighted. I want him to prove the doubters wrong. But if we carry on as we have in recent months, for how long should the situation be tolerated (without action) for the good of the club's future?
Come on! Give us something to believe in! Just don't mention Blind Faith.
Frustrated fans boo because they feel that no matter how bad it gets on the field there is no prospect of change and that Southgate is bulletproof because Gibson will back him no matter what.
If they think that they are wrong. Gibson has already hinted that if we are not challenging for promotion he will make changes. It is just a question of time and timing. He is ruthless when he wants to be.
Booing is a waste of time and emotional energy. It won't force stubborn Gibson's hand and in the meantime it will undermine the team on the pitch and divide the crowd when we most need to be united. Just wait. It will be sorted. Ten games.
I understand what you mean by Sheff Utd's physical nature causing problems but "predicted would batter them at this level", i dont think anyone predicted we would get thrashed 3-0 on the opening day? Everyone expected it would be tough but our superior quality compared to Sheff Utd should pull through, it didnt and I thought one shot on target was a pathetic total.
I only boo in only rare cases but I understand why our fans do it. Southgate's inability as a manager means there is now no room for error, dropping points at home so quickly is deemed unacceptable. I did not renew my season ticket for the first time in 12 years because I felt robbed of £595 last year, money that could have been spent on a much more worthwhile activity.
Do I feel sorry for Gareth? perhaps a little but he certainly dug his own grave, every signing he has made has been inferior to the players we had in the beginning, his tactics baffles me e.g. long ball football, Aliadiere on the right (never had a good game there), dropping Alves every 2 games (even if he had scored), Arca playing anywhere but left back(im sure thats what he was bought in to do?) and no I dont count Reading on the opening day as a poor performance as he had, I believe a broken foot) etc etc
I was ready to forgive Southgate after last year providing things changed but the first day just suggested we will play the exact same way as last year. People can butter up the Sheff Utd game all they like but I saw nothing different from last year(as did everyone I have spoken to) except a few more tackles and width but the same old problems upfront.
If that performance was away at Man Utd I would have been over the moon, unfortunatly we were at home in the championship and we still couldnt break through defences. I thought people like Aliadiere would be great scoring more goals in this league, seems like hes still 1 or 2 leagues above his actual talent
It comes back to SG, what he says counts - but if as he often says "we are a knowledgeable crowd" then what we think and say must be considered.
I for one, do not endorse booing, it's a negative for the players. I for one, do not endorse the theory, let's lose games so it'll quicken GS's departure.
The questions for SG are straightforward:
Is GS taking my club forward ?
Is there a plan to go forward ?
Is it likely that the team will be promoted this season ?
Am I losing money on my investment / philanthropy ?
Should I trust GS with any more of my money ?
Why aren't the players performing ?
Why did they not perform last year, I pay them well enough ?
Are other managers getting more out of their players than GS is getting out of mine ?
Given the players we've bought and sold, plus the younger players coming through why are we in a worse state than last year ?
Why has each year been worse than the last since I appointed GS ?
Why did the team not play the type of football GS promised the fans ?
GS has had spent over £50m of my money so why has he under delivered ?
If this money had been available to other managers would my club be in a better position ?
Is my loyalty to the manager costing the club points due to no fear of performance issues ?
The answers to all these must conclude that this is a downward spiral, we are no longer punching above our weight or anywhere near it and only a change in management will recover it and he is the only one what can do it.
We want SG to remain as Chairman, absolutely, and should the day ever come, I'll be the first in line to make a donation for his statue to be errected outside the ground for what he has done for this club.
GS has been an awesome player for this club, but we've had players in before to manage and they've failed. Nice guy, great player for club and country, can never say a bad word about his playing record but management might not be his thing.
I disagree with your column partly, as I believe football fans to be extremely fickle, as soon as (if) we start scoring and winning games then we will all turn into "foam handers" and start shouting from the rooftops that we are going to win the league/cup etc
However I personally dont think this will happen, as I believe even after three years in charge GS still doesnt know what he is doing and he doesnt even know what his first team is.
Every week we field a different side and it is not always down to "Crockcliffe". It is because it hasnt worked the week before so GS tries something different. This is the 'lessons learned' scenario that we hear so much about, but when will they learn because I havent seen any sign of it yet?
This also leads to the "square peggism" because he is deperate to try anything, one such example is Rhys Williams, who despite having an okay game in the middle on Friday is by his own admission a right back, and was played there because when he was in the youth team there were other players who were better than him in the same position. Such players I presume who have either been sold (Cattermole, Morrison) or cant get a look in (Walker)
Back to my first point, I too will become a "foam hander" if we do start winning, even with GS in charge because Im as fickle as the rest of 'em, but lets face it, it isnt going to happen.
Lets wait and see. I doubt if we will finish out of reach of the playoffs so there is plenty of time for rational thought here.
All we need is four wins on the trot, then another four and then another four after that. Shouldn't be too hard should it......
I suspect that even with 12 wins on the trot GS will still be under pressure but then he gets the salary so should deliver the goods.
Anyway lets see what Saturday brings.
How many more of the young academy players will be sold to the highest bidder? Downing, Cattermole and Morrison have all gone. Johnson, Williams and Wheater will soon follow. Mark my words.
We are now a selling club and with the present set-up do not expect a quick return to the Premier League, in fact I think the club do not want it. We will never compete financially in the Prem again, not unless we are taken over by a major investor.
We are selling the crown jewels to make up for Southgate's ...or Lamb's... or Gibson's ... bad buys - Alves, Mido and all the other underachievers who they signed. We are back to square one after 11 good years. Remember the good times, they will not quickly return.
Stevo -
the people who aren't being sharp or accepting reality are those idiots who boo off David Wheater, Adam Johnson etc on Friday and expect them to think 'oh hang on, it's not me they are booing here, it's the manager, but I'm sure the fans appreciate my effort tonight'.
Or not. And if people want to hound out the remaining talent we have here, with big clubs sniffing around, booing them off is a good way of going about it.
BoroPhil
Whilst I disagree with some things you post I totally agree about the booing being counter productive.
As I have posted before I am firmly of the belief that Gate is the luckiest man in football to be still in a job. People say look at the benefits ManU gained by sticking with Sir Alex but he didnt get ManU relegated and had already been a successful manager at Aberdeen.
Gate is three years in to his stewardship and we have gone backwards. He has been given the opportunity to turn it round whether we agree with the decision or not. If he is up to the task and we go up then job done, huge sigh of relief and we are making progress again.
If he isnt up to the task it wil be self evident soon enough that
a) it is down to him
b) MFC really have tied his hands behind his back.
He would be either a muppet or a puppet.
Booing wont make any difference to those issues other than hinder the team.
It is no good digging our stubborn Teesside heels into the ground because Gibbo is as stubborn as we are. Like it or not he makes the decisions. He watches the Boro and if we are getting nowhere on the pitch he will have to take action before more of the non booers vote with their feet to follow their mates who are not attending.
My own view is that if we havent brought in suitable reinforcements by the close of the window then we will struggle to have a major impact this season, teams will know that if they get men behind the ball we wont threaten in the box. Score one and they will almost certainly get at least a point.
In that case Gareth may well be looking for employment elsewhere in the autumn.
AV, some of the best writing i have read on the Gazette. I totally agree.
I have not seen any comments by TB. Did you, Tony, also want Robson and McClaren out earlier? What I try to figuer out - is it the same people who get frustrated to our managers.
Personally I have seen worse times at Boro - and we now have the recession. More and more clubs go under - but not ours!
Up the Boro!
Just saw the Twitter on Cats being sold for £10m. Sunderland paying over the odds but Wigan have got a sustainable model and they're playing the transfer game beautifully for the level of club they are ! Buy low, sell high, not buy high sell low or give away
Steve Bruce saw potential, we saw trouble and the club couldn't manage it, and by all accounts there's no sell on fee either. Great negotiation Mr Whelan, pulled the Lambswool over the Counts eyes !
Yet GS buys Mido with trouble written all over the deal - I just don't get it.
Morrison is worth at least double what we sold him for, Turnbull was in the £2-3m category and as soon as Stewie gets his boots on and has his first kick at Villa he'll be in the £18m category.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, we're flogging off more silver for brass tacks and begging for offers on Huth & Tuncay - and if we can't sell those two then Wheater will be on offer. I'm waiting for the comments "he wants to play in the World Cup" or "it was too good an offer to turn down" from GS as he's flogged off to Everton, City, Arsenal or Villa - pity no-one wants Ali, Arca or Pogi.
We've got a lousy forward line so realistically no chance of promotion if we have to score "90+" goals in what is now 45 games, and with GS talking up flogging off Huth that'll weaken what is definitely at this moment the best in the division. Hmm so can't score, no midfield and defence about to be weakened - deja vu all over again
Depressing isn't it.
I'd go for a comment from SG saying we're broke, all the "stars" are available and we'll play all the kids but none of those are for sale. At least we'd cheer on the kids like it was 1986 again.
**AV writes: I agree with most of that. I think the financial situation is far more pressing that most fans are prepared to accept. A decades worth of over-priced chickens are coming home to roost.
AV - Interesting debate as usual. The only way to change the boos to cheers, is to bring in a proven goal scorer and a strong target man. Dosen't take a rocket scientist to work that out, which anyone who attended on Friday will testify.
The biggest hurdle in rectifying this problem is the way the club is managed.
End of....
Chris - 90% of the teams in the country are looking for that mythical strong centre forward and his side kick proven goal scorer.
Boro had them both (think the Yak or Mido + Alves) but they were not managed well and the team tactics were so appallingly bad that we didn't play them in the same side on the same day with Morrison and Downing.
Mido needed the ball in the air, Alves needs it in front of him, the Yak I don't think anyone knows exactly what he was good at except he was good at it. Downing had the best delivery in the country, Morrison was fast and tracked back and got stuck in. Honestly the forward line was there but it's been completely screwed up. If it wasn't real you think someone was "aving a laff" at us.
That was the forward line to actually save GS's job and move the club forward
If we sell GON. then the boy to go for is at Coventry: ARON GUNNARSSON, the player of the season last year at City. Only 20 but class - spend any thing fron GON on him. He will be a £20m player soon.
I have to laugh when I see fans continually harping on about how much we need a proven goalscorer. Ask at least 85 of the other 91 clubs in the 4 divisions and they will say exactly the same thing. Such players do not exist anymore anywhere.
Someone said "a player like John Hickton - when did we last see a 30 goal a season man in a Boro shirt?" . Have a look around in the top flight. The best one around is arguably Torres and he wont get anywhere near 30 league goals. The likes of Hickton and even Cloughie or Camsell would struggle to get far into double figures even if they were at their peak and up to speed with todays fitness levels.
Why? Football isnt like that anymore. Because the likes of Hickton and Clough would almost certainly not be played as "strikers" if they turned up nowadays. When the likes of a young Brian Clough turn up for a trial today they would be slotted into midfield or even fullback. Camsell would be the equivalent of Andrew Taylor today. Hickton would be a centre-back forever if he played his career today. Wheater isnt the first to arrive at the club as a striker and be turned into a centreback - Maddren went down that route too.
We turn out sides with four at the back ( sometimes five), four across the middle (sometimes five) and one (occasionally two) up front. And this man's job is not to score goals but to act as a target for the ball out of defence to hold it up and wait for his team-mates to cover the ground to join him. He plays the game with his back to the goal until there is a set-piece.
How else could the likes of Aliadiere be classed as a striker when he clearly hits the target far less often than the average female spectator would?
Of those four or five midfielders two are wide - supposed to assist the full backs cover the flanks rather than get forward and the two in the middle are primarily to assist the centrebacks. In effect we have eight or nine defenders every team every game.
This is what modern day coaching does to football. Get a clean sheet - hopefully we will get the odd corner or freekick outside the box to have a go with but basically 0-0 is what we start with and thats the aim to hang onto it. Fill the side with fast runners and just maybe we might breakaway from one of their corners and get up the other end faster than they get back.
Boro have one of the most respected academy setups in British football. How many strikers has it produced? Danny Graham is probably the only ex academy forward player still in the league. Look around the leagues there are plenty of ex Boro academy graduates playing full back, centre back, defensive midfield but where are the forwards? Morrison was the main (if not only!) forward player in the Youth Cup winning side and at first team level he got no further forward than right midfield and was continually castigated by fans for not being a right back when required.
So games where there is a single shot on target are the norm nowadays. Maybe that philosphy within the game is what is really getting crowds booing.Or maybe many felt Sheffield United were so disappointing because they failed to beat a side that managed a single effort over 90 minutes.
**AV writes: Bang on. Older fans will remember the othadoxy of two at the back and five up front. In the last 50 years that has gradually been reversed with one midfielder dropping ever deeper as a de facto defender. And it is not often you see two up front as a default with one of the strikers dropping deep as an auxiliary midfielder, even at the biggest clubs.
Goals are now at a premium because the shape and tempo of the game has changed and defences are bigger, faster and better organised than ever.
I do think Southgate should have gone by now, I wouldn't dream of booing, relegation this season aside.
I think the only area you are wrong is that I do think Southgate has more than enough respect to win most of us over. Everytime we won a game last season, I was pleased for him, never thought he was up to the job, but really wanted him to be. Perhaps that's the problem in the club as well, who wants to shoot Bambi?
I remember the email list with fond memories. Emo going awol and getting an early heads up that the Blackburn game was off particularly after booking trains from london etc!
Last season was gutless like the relegation in 86, lets hope this season has half the heart and fight of 86/87.
I've said it several times on here - booing is the most pointless of protests and is counter productive.
I was not impressed with the performance on Friday, but I have never, would never and will never BOO!
Like most human activity I think the Gate-o-graph shows an underlying 'normal distribution'.
There are intractable folks at the foamy and chicken run ends of the spectrum but the Boro mass, as ever, are grouped either side of the mean ('average' - not 'nasty') - and are open to persuasion, either way by what they see in front of them.
Last season - and who can blame anyone for feeling this way after the record breaking debacle - skewed the underlying normal distrtibution curve towards the chicken run tendency.
But I still think that that shift is not set in stone and could be reversed by equally compelling evidence from this season - especially since we have no choice about Gate being manager now, anyway.
For me, there are two stages to this when I will make a judgement. So, not 'Blind Faith'- that was always too much to ask - but 'Wait and see'.
The first occasion will be the at the end of August and my evidence test will be (forget the loans that could come later) have Boro got the squad in place that matches the prospectus that Gate, Gibbo and The Count set out for a proper crack at promotion.
That means - their criteria not mine, though I agree - more numbers, more experience, more quality, more mental toughness and with goal-scoring potential throughout.
That, then, also means the remaining refuseniks gone, the right new blood in, and any that we don't want to leave but where we get the proverbial 'offer you can't refuse' replaced with an equivalent (not just a cheaper body or square-pegging someone and hailing it as some sort of master-stroke).
That will tell me whether 'Blind Faith' - that Gibbo's track record gave him the credibility to ask us for - was just a 'Blind Alley'.
The second occasion then comes at the end of September with the 'Ten Game Test'. Ten games is usually a pretty good yardstick for a season and, this term, the mix of opponents means that Boro will have covered the Championship spectrum by then.
My yardstick is that after ten games Boro must be in the top two or very closely in attendance. Evidently, it may be apparent well before the end of September that Boro will be nowhere near.
And, of course, there's a link between the squad position at the end of August and the likely league position at the end of September.
I'm tempted to add a third hurdle - that Gate and all at MFC stop talking rubbish, that they tell us the truth every time they can (not, for example, that some player has got a 'knock' when he just doesn't want to play for Boro), that they're positive but realistic and that the PR generally improves about a million per cent. But that would be unfair - setting them the impossible!!
If both of those tests are failed, then for me the case for Gate to go would be pretty well unassailable - even for Gibbo, The Count and the foamies.
If both tests are passed then I fully expect the Boro mass to demonstrably swing back behind Gate and MFC as well as Boro and, eventually, you'd see the curve on the Gate-o-graph skewed to the foamy side.
I'm with Ian on the boo-ing argument - even though I'm sure the players know it's not aimed at them and even though I can well appreciate the feelings of those who express the dissatisfaction that most of us feel.
Football today is the tactics of fear, unless you are one of the top four clubs who can afford to buy up all the available talent.
It started when Alf Ramsey's wing-backs didn't win the world cup, and work rates suddenly replaced skill. Don't concede, strikers to drop back into defence, it's a siege mentality. Sadly this approach has spread throughout the game at all levels.
Strikers can't score unless they're in the opposition half of the field. Leave them there. I don't care if the opposition are attacking or not. They will not leave strikers unmarked, so it's always a case of attackers equalling defenders. There is no advantage in packing the penalty area with bodies. More disadvantage, with defenders assuming it's someone else's ball, and failing to clear it.
You win games by scoring one goal more than the opposition. So go out and score. Let the opposition worry about YOUR attack. Go at them. Put them on the back foot, and keep them there. They can't score from their own penalty area.
Fortune favours the brave. That's not to say you still don't need the players to play this way, and we currently DON'T HAVE THEM.
**AV writes: If you leave strikers lurking in the opposition half it doesn't bother their defence, it just pushes up to the half-way line and plays them offside.
John Powls:
I read your post with interest but fear that for a lot of fans the dynamic has changed. Southgate had built up a huge amount of goodwill for all the reasons which have been discussed here. But this goodwill has dissipated over three years in which we flirted with and finally got relegated, had the debacle of Cardiff, saw that lessons were not being learned and discovered that MFC couldn't or wouldn't listen.
Southgate's position wasn't helped by some disastrous forays into the transfer market both as a buyer and a seller. And as the public face of the club he takes the responsibility (wrongly in my view) for the PR gulf between club and fans. When the club pleads poverty fans see the money the current regime has squandered and the opportunities they've wasted and ask 'What if........'. Being MFC there's never been any attempt to deflect or defuse such questions.
So where does that leave Southgate with the fans? The boo boys and many who are not so vociferous had already set their personal targets during past seasons and found Southgate (the public face of The Unholy Trinity) unable to meet them.
These people, and I believe they care just as deeply about the Boro as anyone else, are sure that Southgate will eventually fail (again) whatever interim successes he might have. For them it is entirely logical and in the best interests of the Boro to try and force change now in the only forum that MFC leave open to them. That is by expressing discontent after the match.
When SG talked of us having to have Blind Faith I stopped my renewal dead. It was a preposterous thing to say as I had already decided that he and Lamb are responsible for who we buy and why we always seem to be in a last minute panic to get someone good or bad.
I appreciate that he puts the money in but the Sky cash must of helped a lot and one the reasons for all the last minute decisions will be that there are possibly three people trying to agree and it takes time to do that. According to the publicity Rockliffe Park is to be used to support the team, however in the present economic crisis it will undoubtably become a millstone around the clubs neck.
I have often shouted my views in frustration from the east end at the Riverside and I have applauded some performances ( not many but a few) and I do not agree that booing really does any good.
I am afraid that SG has to come clean and tell us the truth about the problems that the club faces, more so since he said decisions were made collectively. If he needs new money then I am sure people will be interested in doing business, but that might cramp his style.
That has set a Cat amongst the chicken runners.
An ex player returning to the Mackems in the premiership giving Wigan an initial profit of £3million after less than twelve months away. Meanwhile we are in desperate need of a midfield enforcer.
However you dress it up it is an indictment of mismanagement of resources. Ouch
**AV writes: Yes, Catts is now officially an even bigger stick to beat the club with.
AV, you're missing the point, and obviously you've been brainwashed into believing these sort of negative tactics.
When strikers drop back to defend, the whole of the opposition can then flood towards our penalty area, which ends up a sea of bodies. Everyone gets in each other's way, and the keeper has difficulty following the ball.
By leaving strikers upfield,on the halfway line or in the opposition half, defenders have to stay there to mark them. They can no longer forage forward in support of their attack.
Once the ball is cleared by our defence, then being upfield, our strikers have a better chance of latching onto it and doing something with it on the break.
**AV writes: On the halfway line is one thing, in the opposition half another. By such fine margins are the tactical chess games of modern coaches won and lost.
I don't expect to see much money spent in this window, as I imagine Gibbo and the Count have already decided that Gareth is a lost cause and they will have to get rid in a few months, meaning a new fella will be recruited who will want his own squad, staff and money to spend in Jan/next year. Therefore any money spent now will be probably be wasted.They are gambling that we will be there or thereabouts in Jan, when they may chuck a bit of dosh about.
On the subject or transfers, I don't see how Gate can be held responsible for wasting so much money when its the Count who makes and accepts the offers. He has been as quiet as the grave this summer, but then the nights have been shorter. As I said, he'll be in full effect come January, when his working day is longer.
Can't believe we have sold out of tickets for Scunny on a Tuesday, so there must still be a good level of goodwill for Southgate out there. I include myself in that.
AV
Forgot to mention in my feline interjection that, at the time Cat left, I certainly did not criticise him going, it seemed he was not going to get on at the Boro be it through lack of application, refuelling or poor handling of the lad himself. Whether it was the right move or not for both parties I am not qualified to answer.
The biggest crime was the lack of suitable replacements for him, Boat, Rocky etc.
As you rightly say, the collection of sticks is growing as are the sizes of said implements.
Let's not beat the club over the Cattermole transfer. Just because Steve Bruce fancies him and spent money on him twice. Where were the rest of the Premiership clubs in rivalling the transfer?
And remember Bruce was on the verge of signing Mido from us. His transfer success is limited. Ask any Birmingham City. A good scout in the largely untapped Central American market doesn't make him a transfer market Guru. Let's see how many yellow cards Catt gets this year, or even reds.
I see Tuncay played and yes you guessed it scored for Turkey tonight. For God's sake get the guy on the pitch in a Boro shirt and tell him to get on with it
Another point - Beckford is in the last year of his contract with Leeds ? Have we even tested them?
**AV writes: We can't afford Beckford. And my money is on Tuncay suffering a relapse between now and Swansea. Tricky condition, tonsilitis.
I have to say that I have never been one to call for a mangers head or boo a performance, though I have always argued people right to do so. I am not a chicken runner.
The introduction of Southgate changed all that. I was away in France when I got a snippet of news which I thought I had misheard. I think looking back it was more disbelief, I had heard correctly.
Since then the club has gone backwards in every measurable manner. The blame has been cast on all and sundry as Southgate has steadily dismantled a coaching staff which was one of the best in the country. The strike force we had was quickly shattered and replaced by players Southgate bought - players who have far more ability than Southgate can muster from them.
I am now an habitual moaner. I worry about our season. I don't rate Southgate. I don't particularly like the guy any more, as much as I could ever really dislike him, I really don't know the fella.
I have cheered my club on through thick and thin - NEVER before have I experienced my club speaking so much double speak. Saying one thing and immediately doing what appears to be the opposite. Gibson says one thing - the next day Southgate the opposite.
I'm not even sure that I solely blame Southgate anymore. Gibson seems to be steering a rudderless ship and that is dangerous.
AV you could have reduced your article to this. If we start winning games and scoring goals the fans will get behind the team and manager. If we don't the booing will continue until something happens[although I dont participate if the players have given their lot on the pitch as they clearly did on Friday]
Cant somebody please give us £4m for Alves and £6m for Tuncay tomorrow?.I'm sure that would solve a lot of our cash flow problems and free up the wage bill to make additions.I forever live in hope.
**AV writes: I couldn't reduce it like that because I don't believe it to be true. I believe that a significant proportion the crowd are now overtly against Southgate and they will not get behind him even if the team does start to win. They want him out no matter what. The same was true with both Robbo and McClaren in their final two seasons. McClaren won a trophy, got to a highest ever Prem place and reached the UEFA Cup final and was still hated by some.
After the final home game of last season GS was forced to make a quick exit off the pitch to a resounding chorus of boos because of an inept, woeful and goaless season. Why on earth anyone was surprised by the booing after the first game this season with one shot on target is surprising in itself.
The players know all too well what the fans think of them, most of them can read and even contribute (albeit under a nom de plume) to on-line sites. Each and every one of them know who is held in high esteem and revered, who is respected, who is tolerated and who is considered generally useless.
After a verse of "he's one of our own" or the North Stand bellowing "HOOOOOTH" in unison I doubt very much if they believed for a second that the booing was for them. They know damn well what is going on and so does GS and SG.
Yes its unpleasant, yes its negative but watching a car crash happen all over again in slow motion is difficult to take if you care about someone or something. It is a natural human emotion to vent fear and anger just as much as it is to be euphoric and joyful, the only difference is the circumstances.
Catts signing for the Mackems; Swansea, Scunthorpe and Donny up next; Danny Graham scoring freely for Watford and Tuncay going for £3M and Rob Hulse coming in for £2M at 5 minutes to midnight on the last day of August all offer intriguing permutations.
GON going to the deep south to join the Toffees leaving us with Shawky and Arca as our Midfield generals are likely scenarios. Huth or Wheats will definitely go by the month end (just wait til the Hangeland, Distin, Lescott, "Laursen replacement" merry go round reaches full speed). Poggi, Riggott and Hines all provide adequate cover at this level so the inevitable will happen.
Its all totally predictable just like booing Gareth if there is another toothless display against Doncaster. Only three people have the power to influence and change the inevitable, if they are succesful then they will silence the critics but so far all they have done is collectively make bigger rods for their own backs through their self fulfilling prophecy.
Phil
You're dead right. Whilst Tuncay is with us we need him on the pitch. They must have some throat pastilles somewhere at Crockcliffe? And Alves, too - if he's staying, we need him fired up and er.... scoring goals. That's what we bought him for. I suppose he's still got a poorly toenail, though. It really is an indictment of the man management that we can't get these two playing just now.
Picking up on the booing debate, I hate it when our own fans boo Boro. I've always felt it was for the opposition - the treacherous Woodgates and Yakubus, the evil Bartons and Bowyers, or the cheating, diving Ronaldos- all fair game in my book - but never for our own lads. It can only ever do harm.
One thing is certain, though. if Southgate doesn't get three points at either Swansea or Scunthorpe, it will get much worse when Doncaster come. Let's not forget that he has presided over a record 12 league away match losing streak. That cannot go on any longer. Swansea and then Scunthorpe are acid tests. I shan't boo if we lose or draw, but I will be mightily dischuffed.
Steve, at 2:16AM, Aug 12th
“We want SG to remain as Chairman, absolutely, and should the day ever come, I'll be the first in line to make a donation for his statue to be errected outside the ground for what he has done for this club.”
Do we really? Is it Boro, or is it Steve Gibson that people support (leaving aside the obvious and more trivial response that in doing the former you automatically do the latter!)?
At the moment, as they have been for the past twenty-three years, the two are inexorably “joined at the bank”. But anyone even more ambitious and well-heeled than Steve Gibson either in partnership with him or individually, might do a better job of satisfying what it is that the fans actually want! (So successful has he been at raising fans expectation levels.)
Maybe some of those fans who are voicing disquiet are actually visionaries whose kindled ambitions they feel are foundering on the rocks, or the cliffs of… wait for it……Rockcliffe!! Nah! Can’t be that! Much more likely to be as Vic says. (Loved the article, by the way, Vic! Possibly your best piece to date!)
But I feel it’s just more likely that people having limited their vision to that with which they feel comfortable and familiar. Just as AV has alluded to, no child is born Jesuit, Taliban, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever. It’s what’s conditioned into the child by others, and by environment that defines him or her.
By following a path of “blind faith” – in any walk of life – one denies oneself (or one is denied) the opportunity to discover for oneself and therefore to exercise genuinely free choice based on a wider personal “reality”.
Regrettably, the faction that constitutes the “Southgate Out” school, seems only able to imagine the one-dimensional solution which isn’t really a solution at all. And those of them who can’t, aren’t as individually-minded enough to voice any alternative opinions or ideas that they may harbour.
Very often, the obvious, isn’t! Very often, the simple, isn’t!
Most often, the truth is other than that which is popularly perceived. Because someone’s “truth” is perceived through psychological filters built up through a lifetime of conditioning of the mind which regrettably very often becomes closed to other possibilities. Conclusions are drawn often without access to evidence and sufficient information and often, for expediency, in either conscious or sub-conscious denial of its very existence.
It is, therefore, much too simple to state that sacking Gareth Southgate is the solution to Boro’s woes. Yet that is exactly what would appear to be on the cards (another spiritualistic phrase creeps in – just to keep the pot boiling!!).
There’s no doubt that Steve Gibson did a marvelous job of Boro’s renaissance from the dire straits of 1986 navigating the club all the way to Eindhoven. But we appear to have peaked at the limit of his resources – assisted by a bit of over-stretched ambition and the untimely intervention of the latest recession.
To move on from Eindhoven would have taken more than he had – including promises he would have had to have made to any “world class” manager to further financially support that manager in building a team with even greater capability.
If supporters want greater success for Boro than Steve Gibson has been able to provide, then some mechanism that delimits the active Gibson resource constraint that’s in play at the present time would have to be found.
Coming back to poster Steve’s “I’d follow him anywhere – even to the gates of hell” contention: So, is it “Boro” or “Steve Gibson’s Boro” that people support?
Because if it’s the latter, and nothing but the latter, people had better to learn to live with whatever it is that he alone can afford until Steve Gibson himself decides that he could do with some additional financial assistance in the interests of taking the club “to the next level”.
There’s more than one way for such a cat to be skinned and it does beg the question of what Steve Gibson’s true motivations are if he has been, for the last three years, prepared to disadvantage the town’s football club’s prospects and the aspirations of the population within that magical 5-mile radius of the Riverside.
So people who can’t or refuse to see a Boro without Steve Gibson at the helm might as well stop booing and get behind him. Because all they are doing is booing the fact that the chairman isn’t as rich as they would like him to be.
But then they’re assuming, naively in view of recent history, that he’d continue to feed their dreams and obsessions, irrespective of the effect on his financial welfare. And THAT is transparently NOT the case! In fact, it’s well outside the realms of “blind faith” and well into the regime of hard and fast evidence!
Maybe it’s just a possibility then that it’s NOT Southgate that’s being booed at the end of football matches? Maybe it’s the whole regime, the “new order” which has crept up on Teesside’s - sorry, Middlesbrough’s - football supporters by stealth and the reality is beginning to dawn for them? Maybe they’re beginning to feel just a bit more than disillusioned that our hitherto local hero is being exposed as just another rich businessman, looking out for himself?
I wonder how long it might be until, “One of us? - yer havin’ a laff!” becomes a chant from the new Holgate end? I wonder if Steve Gibson’s apparently genuine public coyness at the accolades from a genuinely grateful yet embarrassingly fawning population had its basis in his sole understanding that only he knew the truth. His truth. Because Steve Gibson, successful businessman, is exactly that, first and foremost. Not an altruist, not a philanthropist, not a saint, not a knight-of-the-realm in waiting.
Steve Gibson knows where his real, ultimate values are and I suspect they may fall a fair way short of the local, principled sentimentalists who would have us believe that they would offer themselves as fuel if only to keep Corus’s blast furnace running for another four seconds!
Maybe now, a significant section of the Boro “faithful” (?) ARE catching on! But then, even some scientists cling to religion – even in the face of overwhelming and further accumulating evidence that refutes its foundations and its raison d’etre!
Gary O'Neil, he of the mystery ailments that prevented him playing against Pompey at home last season, is electing to postpone a much needed hernia operation and looks to be brokeing a move elsewhere instead...
These were the sort of loose ends we expected to be, and were told they would be, mended during the off-season. The lack of resolution with him and the sorting of other 'assets' further demonstrates a lack of vision and conviction. I'm not advocating the latent vitriol, but surely this and other failed promises contribute to conspire against the ideal of an Absolute Boro mentality.
AV, is there any more insight to the abandonment of the financial model you eloquently outlined during the Talking Boro series?
**AV writes: I think we'll see in the next few weeks exactly how tight the belt will be.
If proof were needed that Boro have not done a great job in the last few years of managing to make the best of our available resources then contemplate the following:
Martin O'Neil has Luke Young and Stuart Downing and reportedly wants Wheater and Tuncay.
Roy Hodgson has Mark Schwarzer and is close to signing Viduka and is reportedly interested in signing Huth and O'Neil
Add to that the news that Cattemole has doubled in value in one year and James Morrison has also seen his value increase as clubs look to make bids.
So except for a left back we have a complete Boro XI that is highly sought after that could well have been the team we played last season.
Instead we are about to embark on a season in the championship with a new inexperienced academy-based team supplemented by lower-league bargains and young overseas hopefuls - it's a bit of a reality check!
AV
The fact the message changed from 'ins and outs not being related' to 'must sell before we can buy' and then Downing and Mido off the books plus money in (and Turbull off the wage bill) only resulting in two free agents and a loose change purchase of Yeates tells its own story.
The fact we still await the departure of Tuncay and Alves plus sundry departures of players we 'want to keep hold of' but 'hope to keep'. Tells me that we may be heading for size zero rather than belt tightening.
But, and a huge but, we must remember there are still 19 shopping days to the window closing. Who knows what rabbits will be pulled out of the hat - though Cat out of a bag wasnt the most cheering news of the summer.
To add insult to injury we draw Forest away in the cup a day after I go on holiday (regular sufferers will know I live in Derby)
Roll on Scunnie though before that Powls Snr and Jnr are braving the long journey from Reading to Swansea. My Leicester supporting buddy saw them at the Walkers and they played some pretty stuff, dont like it up em and have a powder puff attack.
And yet another stick with which to beat?
The papers are linking Chelsea with a £4m bid for Nemanja Matic today. This is the same player that we gave a trial to last year (albeit it was cut short due to an international call-up (maybe this was a sign that the kid had talent?)).
No doubt we could have had him at that time for a fraction of the price and he would have fit into "our policy" of buying young and cheap players that we could then sell on for a profit (a bit like what Wigan do!!!). Saying that, Emnes was hardly cheap at £3m, so perhaps "our policy" isn't working.
On another point, my suspicions that O'Neil wasn't doing us any favours by delaying his operation look pretty accurate now. It looks like it could have been an escape plan all along. At least he played against Sheffield though, unlike Tuncay.
Maybe all the Tuncay lovers out there may want to think again about his attitude. That said, maybe he wants to play while he is still here (I doubt this) but the club aren't letting him?? Why wasn't Mendi tried when he was still here and the team were playing bad? These are the things we are never told!
I guess all we really want is a bit of honesty from the club. I believe that the majority of fans would be a lot more forgiving if they knew what was really going on. No more pretend illnesses please. All this spin is the main reason why I didn't renew this season (although a gorgeous baby girl and a 500 mile round trip helped make my decision too).
I was still there for the opener last week. I didn't boo, but understand and share the frustration about the way we are being taken for mugs at the moment.
Ian Gill at 9.49am "...to Swansea. My Leicester supporting buddy saw them at the Walkers and they played some pretty stuff, dont like it up em and have a powder puff attack."
Some might suspect your buddy was describing our Boro heroes.
Ian Gill's scouting report on Swansea makes them sound like a mirror image of us. I'll take 0 - 0 now.
On your comments AV, I think many fans are entrenched in their views on GS now but that is because he has been in charge for 3 years now. He is no longer the rookie and he quite clearly stated himself that last season was the season to judge him on. It was his team, playing his way. We went down, dismally.
I was, for a long time, a great supporter of GS. He appeared to be a principled advocate of attacking football, in tune with the fans and wholly unlike the majority of his ref baiting, long ball hoofing, whinging counterparts in the premier league.
Some of that may still be the case. He has however turned out to be probably the worst manager we have had in my lifetime and I have been going since the early seventies. There are essentially three criteria by which to judge a manager; buying and selling players, tactical awareness and motivation. Unfortunately, by all three GS has to be judged a failure, the evidence is stacked against him.
There is absolutely no good reason AV why he should suddenly start to excel when he has performed so poorly thus far. When you lose faith in the manager then all hope is gone. That is why fans feel the way they do and the booing will continue.
For all of the reasons I stated at the beginning, I would love him to turn it round and prove us all wrong. But he won't because he can't.
Pity.
I had the same reaction to Ian's comments on the Swansea game as Forever Dormo and Heworth Smoggy!!
And, just as AV says above, though my lad Phil and I will be at The Liberty Stadium on Saturday we don't expect the 'pleasure' of Mr. Tuncay's company - even if he's still on the books then.
Another interesting/worrying point is why Rhys Williams - just over a knock he got against The Blades and likely to be a square pegged key to Boro's central midfield at the weekend - was allowed to be one of the few Aussies who completed the whole 90 minutes last night.
Swansea? I must admit that I burst out laughing when I heard the description of Swansea.
I fear John and his lad will be dining on Nouvelle Cuisine - a trumph of style over substance. They did however score three in the Carling Cup with the unfortunately named Dobie getting a couple. They do like to play from the back so can be pressed - see England last night?
With the gossip about Huth and O'Neill, let us hope Tuncaylitis isnt contagious.
Stockport Wiggy said:
"I don't expect to see much money spent in this window, as I imagine Gibbo and the Count have already decided that Gareth is a lost cause."
What, on the basis of the Sheffield United game? I know a weeks a long time in football but I don't think a U-turn has been made just yet.
What do football fans want?
1.They like to see their team win regularly particularly at home.
2.They want to see some good games.
3.They want to see their team score.
At the end of the day it does not bother me if the person in charge is called Southgate, Mourinho or Joe Kinnear. I refuse to believe the majority of genuine fans WANT the team to fail simply because they openly question the manager's ability.
Start winning football matches and I can assure you the booing will stop - and that is from somebody with over 40 years experience of watching the game and listening to fans mouthing their opinions.
With Afonso ready to be offloaded it would be interesting to know at what point GS had decided he was a dud ( for us at least).
I recall several press releases last season from the coaching pew along the lines of ' he'll score us the goals -soon' etc etc. It was fairly obvious in the first 6 months he was here that he couldn't cut it. Persevering well into 2008/09 must be one of if not the main reason we are travelling to Swansea this week.
The damage of the bad signing mightn't be so bad if we had addressed it but my viewing of the Sheffield game says we are as bad as I can remember in the striker department.
John, Aus
Bring on the next match. Only by playing we can judge the current squad. I think Tuncay must play on Saturday as he is well paid for doing that. And he should still love to play football - shouldn't he?
Also I wish the tranfer windows should close soon and we could finally consentrate on football. Still wishing Tunny to be here come January...
Up the Boro!
Various reports saying Alves is about to sign for benfica. Don't know how accurate that is though, as one says he has scored two goals in 45 minutes this season. Should that be 45 games?
If tuncay doesn't play on saturday is it because:
1. We don't want to risk injury as we are desperate for cash
2. He doesn't want to ever play for us again
If its the latter he shold have his player of the season awards withdrawn and awarded to..... .er .....um .... Ross Turnbull
Richard, I'd love to read your thesis but I've only half an hour for me lunch and a life to lead.
I like most on here do not rate Southgate as a manager. He was a dreadful appointment at a time we should have been pushing on with an experienced proven manager. He in his three years at Boro has done nothing to show he has what it takes to be a top flight manager.
But I do not think that is all the problem. We were told by Gibson funds were available to sort the squad no matter who was sold... .not true and not happened!We were told that he had written off the Boro debt owed to him to put the club on a better footing but the debt has just been moved sideways into the rest of the empire.
Basically every day we hear Southgate saying this player will be gone, that player will be gone...and also other players getting linked that we apparently wanted to keep.. this is not sorting the team, this is a fire sale and seeing whats left over, then you may see a few free transfers from lower leagues coming to fill the holes.
The main point is this... Gibson said this year that the team would be pushing for promotion and that the funds to buy would be there.This obviously is not the case... all the best players have prices on there shirts and if we did manage promotion we would not survive one season back in the premiership. If we can't afford to sort the team for the championship we stand no chance of surviving in the premiership.
Now that the "Goal Machine" to Benfica rumours have resurfaced I asked my 'fica mate over in Lisbon if he'd heard anything: "Nope. Benfica is running on 6 strikers now (incl. Saviola!!), so hopefully no room for more..."
3rd time lucky with this post.....
**AV writes: It's up already.
There is no doubt that GS is between a rock and a hard place, but the booing will stop if Boro start winning, if that doesn't happen he will be sacked.
No doubt if the winning habit returns and Boro have a successful season then those that have turned against GS will not suddenly start rating him, but does that matter?
The only issue that is important now is how succesful or not this season is going to be.
I agree the reason for the booing is pent up frustration and anger at last seasons debacle and it is hard to back GS as a manager when the facts from the last three seasons are analysed but continuity is a strength in any organisation (not at all costs though) and change is usually damaging so for the moment I'm content for GS to remain in charge, we'll have a better idea of where we are at 10/12 games in.
Although despite perceived pundit wisdom indicating that after a quarter of a season you've got a feel for how things will pan out for the rest of the year my recollection is that last season after ten games Boro were 8th!
Changing the subject somewhat and trying to catch up after a couple of weeks away, the injury to Matthew Bates looks a little worrying to say the least, this must be a career threatening injury given it has recurred three times?
Just to say Nemanja Matic is being linked with a £4m move to Chelsea in the national press. This is a guy we had on trial last season and could have signed for less than a million.
Have watched him on youtube and he looks immense. Now I know that a video can be completely misleading and no true judge of a players true ability but if Chelsea are interested the guy must have some quality. Compare it to having Matthew Bates in the centre of midfield.
Obviously time will judge if he's a quality player but if he is and we missed out on him despite having him on trial i would be massively disappointed.
**AV writes: I though the problem was that we COULDN'T sign him for less than a million. In fact wasn't the price potentially quite a bit higher.
Didn't want him in the first place - and now he is proving conclusively I was right along with others.
The charge sheet is long - and accurate. And I suppose fans feel audible dissatisfaction at the continuing demise of our club under him is perhaps the strongest tool to get action.
I doubt it will - but frankly many,many fans believe it is time for mistakes to be acknowledged and action taken.
AV - just how much do Leeds want for Beckford? You state we cannot afford him. If this is the case - and I have no reason to doubt you, then we clearly are in dire financial straits, something Gibson and indeed Southgate have not come clean about in all the rhetoric about promotion during pre season.
I quite agree with Chris, we simply couldn't afford promotion, and I cannot afford another season of heartache ending in relegation.
**AV writes: I think the price-tag is £6m. Plus there are Premier League clubs interested and if Leeds accepted a Boro offer it would immediately be matched by them. Even we overcame the status hurdle it would then come down to a wages auction we can't possibly win.
Billy in Berks: if you can convert one in three chances (your post at 2.48pm) you are much better than any of our strikers.
The other thing is that there has been mention in the past about Beckford and some character and/or lifestyle issues, and the odd injury or two, that might have dissuaded potential purchasers from the top tier. He may be a prickly character. But he is still scoring regularly when playing and surely it must be worth an offer?
The worst that can happen is that the offer is rejected or raised by a Premier League outfit, in which case we will be in exactly the same position as now. We will have lost nothing. And surely we could match the wages he has been receiving as a player with Leeds in the third tier FOR SOME YEARS NOW (or are they still operating on a Toytown economic model?).
I accept Newcastle maybe an exception (but even they have their economic constraints unless or until sold), but even though we might not be able to compete with the big boys from the Premier League, surely with our parachute payment we could match or beat the other Championship Clubs (accepting QPR are not splashing the cash).
And to think a year ago people thought we were economic big boys whilst Hull City and Stoke were poor upstarts. Now we can't compete with them! But it is another sort of reality entirely if we can't compete with the likes of Swansea, Watford, Doncaster, Barnsley etc.
I can't believe all this heated debate about football fans venting their feelings and protestations at woeful mismanagement of their football clubs.
Boro fans come in for a lot of stick by the national media at times, with their patronising references to the "best chairman in football" blah blah blah,so I find it incredible after three years of dysfunctional, deconstruction and decline, that some are only lately trying to show their dissatisfaction at such crass and inept management of a football club.
Boro fans have been patient and loyal for a remarkably long time.
Football fans booing at their clubs failures; shock horror! It was ever thus.
The highlighting and consequent negativity of another "Boro Boo Boys" story is mischievous and misguided in a context of the previous seasons abject surrender of P.L. status and inept management of epic proportions.
No, the story should have been of the magnificent turnout and support by Boro fans during the 90 minutes of dull, drab, dire,disjointed and directionless football.
Has anybody actually considered the possibility that many of the "boo boys" , chicken runners,( or whatever other disparaging label is tagged ),may have also clapped and "sang their hearts out for the lads."
They also paid either up front for their season cards or a minium, discounted adult matchday ticket of £21.00.
The current state of the "product on the pitch" has nothing whatsoever to do with the long suffering Boro faithful. Contrary to the naive view of some on here, the influence on that is very limited indeed; handsome salaries are paid to a management team to deliver that.
The national press love to bury Boro fans, it's high time the local media came to praise them a bit more, especially as they don't have to pay to watch it.
AV keeps inferring that the dire finances of the club are to blame for our demise but fails to make the point that in a time of belt tightening and more limited resources, the club should have appointed a manager with a track record of getting the best possible return from the more limited resources available to him.
G.S. was probably as bad a choice that could have been made in these circumstances ie the management of a football club with declining financial resource which had previously only survived because of reckless largesse - which only served to underpin and bolster, weak, amateurish management regimes like Robbos, which achieved relative success despite them and not because of them.
It's shocking to think that Steve Gibson appeared to learn absolutely nothing from that era of "roller coaster rides" and Riverside Revolutions.
Of course it was still a fairground experience that brought us all many thrills and spills; I am not churlish enough to ignore that.