Boro Must Make Downing Dividend Pay

Good luck to Stewy and I hope he finds success. He was always due to leave this year and he gave us another season when he was asked.

One criticism of your article - why do you have to stir up supporters with comments like, "will deepen the current crisis of faith and widen the gulf between club and fans"?

We are all desperately disapointed with relegation, we have our moans about aspects of the way the club has been managed but the last thing we need is the local press driving a wedge between the club and the fans at the beginning of a season.

I thought you were bigger than that Vic.

**AV writes: I can only write what I believe and what I see happening. There is now a considerable and undeniable latent anti-Southgate feeling and a wider discontent at the club as a whole. Rightly or wrongly there is a growing belief that the relegation came about chiefly because of strategic mismanagement.

The exit of Downing is a big test for the club. It is a watershed moment. If they spend the money wisely they can get in the players we need to spark a promotion charge, lift morale and get the club back on course.... but if they don't and we are left treading water - or worse - despite having the resources then there is a very real risk that public opinion will turn quickly and sharply against the club.

That is how I see the situation. Sorry.

There has always been a love hate relationship between the club and the fans.

Why should it be any different now?

AV

As you know my view has been that the money is important but the main issue is misuse of the resources available.

I will repeat, yet again, that the performances, for whatever reason, of the ressies and kids last season were no better than the first team so we are faced with a conundrum about who to bring in.

If we bring in cast offs released by Championship rivals it may be a tacit
admission that our model is not working. If the legacy of the last decade or so is journeyman getting a comfy couple of years at Boro and no kids coming through then there will be a growing disenchantment with the club.

People like Hughes and Webber are not Townsend or Parlour, top pros extending their careers. If we have no players who are as good or better than the two above then the whole management should hang their heads in shame. If we bring in some top pros to supplement and enhance our kids that is a statement of intent.

Excellent article from AV, spot on assesment of where Boro are at.

I'm sure some fans will shrug at the thought of Downing leaving but my ten year old son was gutted even though he new it was going to happen. He has just received his new Boro kit and when I asked him what name he wanted on th back his reply was 'Juninho' a player he has never seen (except on video) and who played for Boro before he was born, which says it all about what he thinks of the current squad (not a hero amongst them).

For sure we need to see some serious action in the transfer market otherwise the wheels will come off sooner than later.

AV, a most interesting and realistic piece.

It will be interesting to watch Stewart Downings career now, from the outside as it were and good luck to him. With the type of coaching and man management skills he's likely to experience with O'Neill et al, his development should be even more exciting and could make him an automatic starter in South Africa next year.

Back to the Boro, I wait with bated breath in anticipation of any signings in the hope that a player or two will be brought in who can lift the club with the skills, sparkle and personality needed to help lift us out of the doldrums in the coming season although I aint too optimistic.

Who's this Michaelangelo? Is he coming or is it just another rumour?

**AV writes: He could be a leading figure in Boro's Renaissance

We cannot give Gate any money to spend. We need Beckford from Leeds or Evens from Man City, not Hughes/Webber.

Get a good boss in or we will go down again. Gate doesn't know a good footballer.

AV

Sensible streamlining or cost-cutting?

Just the usual The Count 'cost of everything, value of nothing' view. The Crockliffe that the town can.....

'You'd think some people would rather we started badly than started well, if it meant we could get rid of Gareth.'

As the article indicates, there is a groundwell of opinion against him - last season did for that. Gibson may not have singled him out as a key factor in our demise but many fans clearly have and, critically, there does not seem to be much confidence in him going forward - why should there be?.

Our support may have a reputation for being pessimistic never-satisfied whingers but to be fair, this particular reaction would be the same whatever club he was at.

Whilst we're on the subject of model professionals, can I return to the subject of Mido - as far as you're aware AV is he actually going to bother turning up at Boro?

Given that he's in the last year of his contract, we may as well sack him for breach of contract as there's little prospect of anybody paying more than £1m for him now - plus he'll no doubt be entitle to his 'loyalty bonus' even if he's tranfered.

As for confidence in Gareth - if he's good enough for Steve Gibson, he's good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned Gareth did an excellent job in his first two seasons, under difficult circumstances, and last season he was let down badly by underperforming and disloyal players. The very least he deserves now is a chance to take us back up - if he can't, he'll be gone.

'You'd think some people would rather we started badly than started well, if it meant we could get rid of Gareth'

OK then, I'm one of them. If it takes that for us to prgress as a club then so be it.
Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards.

Anyway, a bad start does not necessarily turn into a bad season - i.e Roy Keane's first season at Sunderland. And any other manager could not do much worse then Southgate has so far surely?

borophil,

"I understand why some people don't feel entirely confident with Gareth in charge - but he is, so people need to deal with it"

Why do people need to deal with it, if we want him out, then thats what we want. We dont have to deal with anything!

"How is stating we need to be better than last season and score more goals than last season putting his foot in it? Common sense if you ask me"

It would be common sense if we had any confidence in Gareth being able to deliver on his statement, but we dont, and he wont. We sell our most creative talent and replace with erm.......lesser quality. How will that result in more goals?

And most importantly, Boro belongs to the town of middlesbrough, and as a fully paid up member, I and many others have every right to voice our displeasure at the 'hands clapping mismanagement of calamatous proportions' of last season.

If any of us had performed so badly at our work, we would be out of a job in no uncertain terms. Why should Gareth be any different?

BoroPhil

Hopefully the players Southgate brings in will be 'amazing' however I can not see how replacing PL players with out of contract players and League One players will make us a better side than last season.

I really hope we will be.

C'Mon Boro!

BoroPhil,

GS will be gone very soon indeed if pre-season preparations continue in this vein. Mismanagement is key to the situation we find ourselves in both on and off the field.

How can the fans be confident ahead of this season. Did Gibson honestly believe that people would have 'blind faith'. In my opinion reading these boards and others, the majority of fans are against rather than for - because of mis-management, not because they want Boro to do badly.

The club are trying to do everything on the cheap. If we were ambitious (getting out of this league) then £12m plus a large chunk of the parachute payement should be assigned to new signings.

Just waiting for the next step after the confirmation of the deal being done - the statement that all the money won't come at once, therefore can't be spent.

Indeed, Philip Tallentire's already fallen for it and got The Count's equaliser in for him before the opposition (Boro fans, as The Count sees it) have scored! He argues that the pittance that Gate will be allowed will mean that he can get Webber and Hughes (aaaarrrrgh!).

What this misses, of course, is that if Stewie's fee is staged over a number of payments - which is common practice - then so long as Boro's incoming deals are done the same way the sums are equivalent and balanced.

But maybe that's not the way The Count does business.

borophil,

You are right they are doing it on the cheap. 2nd div players means 2nd div football. We need good players not the rubbish. Southgate is buying. Get rid of him and his staff. Get a new boss in now, not in 10 games time or we will go down again.

BoroPhil:

If you want us all to be happy-clappy positive here's a little challenge for you. Name and explain just one good transfer deal, either in or out, that Southgate has conducted.

I might just give you Tuncay but strongly suspect that his signing came from an agent actively hawking him around and that MFC were the only club who could/would meet the package.

Other Tuncay, I struggle and worry that whatever funds that are given to Southagte will be frittered away as usual.

Just how accurate is this £12m figure? Is there anything official about it, or is it just somebody guessing?

**AV writes: It is not official but it is heavily hinted from the Villa end.

John Bowman,

Can I have Tuncay then?

Boro Phil,

like you I'll be giving GS full backing at the start. There's no alternative. Unfortunately I don't have much faith in him spending it wisely which is why I think it won't be spent,until Jan when Gibbo will know if he's staying and if we have a chance of going up.

Personally I would take Hulse. He is right for this level and will be up for it against his old club Sheff Utd which could give us the flyer we need.

What I can't understand is why we don't seem to be in for some of the experienced prem/champ players available on frees/dead cheap or on loan. Hamman would be great. The clock is ticking

Good stuff AV. Good read and not a bad challenge to test the intent! If they read it that is! Though, at this time, I’m inclined to be a bit less PC and circumspect.

With the exception of a small handful of posters, many people would appear NOT to be engaging with the big picture and they’re settling for second best. I detect in bits of this blog a resignation of psyche to the new reality and although with some underlying unease, an acceptance of “the world’s doing it to us again!” – a kind of “Typical Boro” mentality.

Sure, we HAVE to be resigned in the short term to Boro’s presence in the CCC, but the “short term”, by the preferred definition, would surely be the forthcoming season?

But what after that? More of the same?

While I support Tony Black’s underlying sentiment in his post at 1.11PM, 16 July quoting from AV’s article, he concludes (wrongly, in my opinion) that simply getting rid of Southgate and any/all of his same-minded cohorts will somehow provide the answer to what ails Boro. That however, is only cosmetic. It’s not even close to being the solution to what ails Boro – if an ailing Boro is defined as anything other than sustainable competitive Premier League membership.

If we close our minds to the root cause of us being where we are in the first place, we are ignoring the real reasons for us dropping down a division and we are falling for the “blind faith” rhetoric of the prime architect of it all.

Steve Gibson appointed Gareth Southgate.

Steve Gibson (or constraints on Steve Gibson) demanded reduced operating costs and less debt exposure.

None of this is to say that Steve Gibson is a bad person, a charlatan, or some kind of Teesside Quisling. But let’s get real about what’s going on here! It’s Steve Gibson and the fluctuations in the actual or perceived strength of his commercial empire that has driven and continues to drive Boro. It’s also Steve Gibson’s vision, desires, prejudices and proclivities that will determine Boro’s future.

The suggestion is, that the accumulating evidence, from all publicly-available snippets of information and from the recent historical events within the club, that the health of Steve Gibson’s commercial interests is not as robust or flexible as it may have been some years ago. Either that, or Steve Gibson and his financial advisors’ perceptions of it or present-day attitudes have sufficient force to adopt a significantly more “prudent” strategic approach to funding Boro than in the heady days of chasing European sporting glory.

Irrespective of this fine distinction, the resultant effect is that the club, in terms of ability to compete in an inflated, unregulated and consequently distorted transfer market, where at the highest extreme, player valuations at £80M have now almost reached the proportions of small third-world country debt and where salaries of £280,000 per week are being offered to players, has now become seriously compromised.

The available behavioural evidence from Boro in the current transfer market suggests that there aren’t the funds available to mount a sustainable and irresistible challenge in the CCC, followed by the financial resources to sustain a new Premier league presence.

IF Boro are seriously re-grouping, after last season’s out-of-the-blue “miscalculation”, I still remain to be convinced, on the strength of any evidence so far available, that the “promised” intent to return immediately to the top flight is anything other than a North Sea fret and another insubstantial smokescreen - a knee-jerk attempt to protect what may have been left of season-ticket supporter “loyalty”, after a gut-wrenching season of disappointment, anger and frustration.

Tony B – you can get rid of Southgate and anyone else you like, but the fundamentals would still be in place!

While Boro are inexorably tied to the health of Steve Gibson’s wealth, we’ll always be subject to the limitations imposed by them.

The trouble is, a provincially-located club such as Boro, whose chairman is apparently determined to keep it so oriented, is self-limiting. Sure there may be some real very tough real-world constraints out there that would take some shifting, but if there’s no will to shift them – then it’s over before it starts!

And that, for me, is a shift away from the earlier mindset of the young Steve Gibson who led Boro out of receivership! The young Steve Gibson presumably had (relatively) little to lose, twenty three years ago!

Maybe time will prove me wrong. And, believe me, a massive part of me wants that to be the case. But I’m currently falling a long way short of being convinced of Steve Gibson’s ability, or will, to repeat history.

Nigel (Mumbai) at 6.04 PM, 16 July:

“AV, if you're saying that we've effectively binned sports science then that's worrying. It's another expression - like the Middlesbrough on Rhine and Stockton Mackem perspectives - that really worries me because it reveals an insular, backward thinking, small-minded mentality that will lead us, ultimately, to nowhere special”

I agree! But that may well be the Boro fate we’ll have to confront and accept henceforth, under Gibson.

If they’re not doing so already, increasing numbers of people may find themselves asking the question, “Is it Boro, or Steve Gibson I support?”

If we take Manure this summer they have lost "Ronnie the diver" and Tevez to their biggest European Rivals and in the case of Tevez to their cross City rivals. Both were players the Manure faithful adored and were loathe to lose. Liverpool are struggling to hang onto their stars with a few of them being lured home to Spain and even Chelski are struggling to hold onto Terry!

In that footballing context Boro are not so different. An ageing permacrock brought into replace Tevez is hardly a positive statement of intent. Let's take Villa who look likely to lose a £20M winger who they have replaced with a £12M winger with a broken foot who will miss the first half of the season!

Onto the art appreciation class!

"You don't get Michaelangelo in to paint the ceiling then berate him for not sanding down the skirting board." If Gareth was the site foreman he'd have picked him to paint the skirting boards in the first instance with the Plumber selected to paint the ceiling!

The likelihood is that Tuncay, Aliadiere, Huth, Mido, Alves and maybe Jonno and Pogi will be history come September. There will be a big change in personnel and the prognosis looks like we are going back to basics (i.e. run up and down Redcar Beach a couple of times and work out who is fat and who is fit as oppose to scientists pinching inches and working out BMI'S).

It is very likely the playing staff will reflect the same philosphy for the coming season: in other words real pro's and not fairy faint hearts. The clever bit will be to make sure if we do go up, the squad next season will only need tinkering with and not a complete overhaul as that will bring about instant relegation again.

I'm afraid my blind faith is very weak and I can't see Gareth lasting long if he repeats the same mistakes but methinks Alan Smith's influence will prove to be either a masterstroke or the final straw. I would think the posters on here are fairly representational of Boro fans generally and there is definitely a more than unhealthy dose of pessimism.

In a perverse "Typical Boro" way the holy trinity will do the exact opposite to what we want in an effort to spite us. That means surprise signings and a clear statement of intent otherwise we may as well all move to Stockton.

Up the MFC!

[The guarantee was that the team that starts this season will be stronger than the one we had last season.]

The strength of the team (i.e ability to compete) will be relative to the rest of the league, so the above may be correct.

I agree however with the concern about Gibson's heavily parochial approach / downsizing ambitions taking us back to 'mediocrity', though at the same time I could understand it if he felt that the wider Teesside public had never fully bought into his original more grandiose vision: hence we get the team Tessside can afford/deserve (regardless of Bulkhaul's fortunes). We don't deserve Gareth though, imho..

So, as per usual, anything good that happens at the club is in spite of the management, and anything bad is 100% their responsibilty?

BoroPhil
If things go wrong at the club who should take the blame (if it not the people who run the club)?

davidconnor,

Alves - 'no-one else wanted him. Er, except the club he had kind-of already signed for?' Alves was a great prospect (maybe still is), and no-one could have predicted he would have done so badly last season. I certainly didn't see much opposition on here to us signing him.

Shawky - small change, played alright at times, we won't be sorry to see him go.

Hoyte - looked good when he has played, been unlucky with injuries. Could still be a good signing.

Digard - see hoyte.

Emnes - could be a superstar this season.

GON - possibly Gareth's best buy. Surely you aren't suggesting his homesickness is Gareth's fault.

As for sales, Cattermole was a disruptive influence - he had to go.

Blind Faith? That's a concept that has a lot of followers in Football. Does Steve Gibson have blind faith in his management team? As usual in these messages its either the chairman or the manager getting the stick.

Well I must admit Gareth's record doesnt bear up to scrutiny. I dont know how it compares to Alex fergusons first few seasons at Man Utd but I would be interested to see a comparison. I remember back in the day he had an awful start.

But lets just say that GS still has the potential and is the right man for the job. Most people think that Steve Gibson is untouchable, the clubs very existence is owed to the man. Maybe he is just lost touch, maybe he is at a loss to know what to do or say?

So where does that leave the silent middle man Arkwright? He is very rarely mentioned by name by past or leaving players. I have heard enough "keep this to yourself" quotes that point to his unpopularity.

To me Blind Faith has gone too far in some respects, I fear that with Arkwright in charge we could have the best people installed and we would still fail. The negative downturn that the football world is generally suffering plays into the hands of a handwringing doom laden person who cant think past the darkened view of a welders helmet.

What we need is new blood in the chief executive's seat, then we can judge the real power of Steve Gibsons chairmanship and the talent that's been allowed to escape the Boro for years.

Boro Phil

We can move on when the things that got us relegated are addressed and sorted as was promised by Mr Gibson... I have yet to see this has been done!

How can we move on when the manager who got us relegated last season due to his abysmal tactics and team selections is still in charge?

I really hope that GS and the team do well next season and will be there to support them, however I fear the worst as GS is still in charge and it is looking like we are going to have a poorer side than last season which could struggle in the Championship.

If Boro has gone down with spirit and fight I would not be calling for Southgates head, we did however go down with a wimper.

It seemed that GS failed to motivate the players, what will be different this season with the same manger and coaches in place?

C'Mon Boro!

Chris

I noted those comments from Gate too. The first signs of 'trouble in paradise' from that element of The Unholy Trinity? Certainly the first sign of some distancing by Gate from Gibbo and The Count.

Unwillingness to continue to be the stooge for the other two might just be the most positive sign that I've yet seen from Gate in his managerial career. I'd certainly warm a little more if he became his own man and less of a cypher.

It would likely get him the sack too.

Interesting that Stewie has the same view as many of us do - Boro's chances of going up depends on the dividend from the fee for him (and others) being spent on quality players to boost the squad.

Of course, he's said that before too and was assured it would happen last closed season - which is why he stayed. When it didn't happen that's what caused him to ask for transfer in January.

Did Gibbo use the 'Blind Faith' line on him too, I wonder?

An excellent post by Richard. Could not agree more.

We have come full circle since Steve Gibson took over as chairman. We lived the dream alongside the big boys, great players came but inevitably left and since Eindhoven it has become blatantly obvious that we as a club could not sustain a challenge in the premier league with the debt we have and the resources available.

The correct course of action was to reduce that debt. We could not risk a return to 86, which would have ended up with us going out of business altogether. Steve Gibson et al have taken the only course of action open to them but they have failed to admit this to the fans.

Hope springs eternal for us Boro fans but I am afraid there will be no quick return to the prem and what worries me more is I am not sure the club want it. Obviously they would not admit to that but the calibre of players we are chasing tells its own story. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Of course this could all be an almighty smokescreen and we could soon sign the five or six quality players we need for a quick return to the top level. The next three weeks will tell us where our ambitions lie and I hope that I am hopelessly wrong in my assessment of the current situation... we have reached a watershed at this club... where to next?

Nigel,

You are right, but it does give me something to do on slow work days...

Good luck Stewart Downing-playing for an experienced manager at long last.

According to Colin Cooper the players have returned with a new zest.
Are these the same players who couldn't be asked for more last season

John Rogers

Nigel the "Negative" posters on here are dealing with cold hard facts. Intellectual analysis is not the same as manic depression although watching Gareth's disillusioned square peggism week after week year after year while he "learned lessons" could make many a grown man depressed.

Reality is that the "Negative" posters on here have in the past and will in the future continue to support Boro through thick and thin and a lot longer than either Gareth's or Gibbo's tenure. Boro is in our blood it occupies a huge part of our lives (a compulsive disorder perhaps), our passion is illogical it is based upon our love, hope and dreams (not blind faith unfortunately).

It is that very passion that demands the highest levels of excellence from those encumbents upon whom our hope is based. As G.W. stated above "Southgate has had 114 league games & won only 29, loosing 52, scoring 115 goals. He bought most of the "underperforming" players. The fees of Downing & probably Tuncay will cover the monet (Michaelangelo's mate?) wasted on Alves & Mido" those are the harsh facts, the sad reality, the truth.

If the club continue along its current under achieving performance levels then your example of finishing second in the Prem will always be just a glib throw away comment. We "Negative" posters actually hope and dream of Boro playing and more importantly competing in the Prem, finishing 2nd will never happen in our lifetime but then again we don't expect it to.

What we do expect is that MFC make the most of what precious limited resources and talents we have at Boro's disposal, we expect to see 11 Boro players proud to wear the shirt with dignity and pride (hence all the upset about the badge and band) and to give 100% effort and application, no more, no less.

Unless something changes and quickly there is worse to come because weakening what resources we have allied to entrusting it to those who dragged us down thus far is not something we wish to contemplate or will accept. As Dylan Thomas put it:

"Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

Ched Evans at 20 years old for £1.5M or 30 Year old Rob Hulse for £3M. I bet I know which one Gareth will bid for!

johno

Shame if we have missed out on Ched Evans. £1.5m as against £3m for Hulse. Which team has ambition and nous?

Answer:- not the one at home on 7 August!

Beckford's still a possibility, true, but there's Becchio too from the same source.

boroconfused.com

RE: SIGNING TARGETS

Wigan - club on the up! - Scotland
Sun'land - club on the up! (Ow! that hurts really hurts!) - Campbell, Crouch (not worth £12m though!), Cattermole bid!

Boro...?! - Webber, Hulse, Hughes (1 goal in 39 apps! - not your free scoring hard man midfielder we need!)

But - at the end of it all - I'll be there come August - however I agree with some of my fellow bloggers that Gibbo, Lamb and Co maybe, just maybe have lost or losing the plot!

I really do not understand what is going on behind the scenes at my beloved Boro but what I do know is that the Riverside Revolution hype is dead and buried and WE are ALL back to a good old dose of Boro reality and mediocrity!

Hello Borophil. Thanks for the response. I will not harp on about the relegation, but what I will say is that I deal in facts. I dont wear rose coloured glasses. I gave the reason for relegation and I still stand by my statement. Southgate is a very bad manager. End of story. I thank you for the banter. No offers for a pint then

BoroPhil

We were relegated, end of story but only for the relegation.

My worry is the officers that hit the iceberg are still in charge and it looks like half the crew will be in into the lifeboats when the good ship Boro2 sails on 7th August.

My concern is not for last season but this one coming up. My fervent wish is for all the lessons to have been learnt, understood and acted upon. We were not privvy to the internal debate and didnt expect to be. All we need to see are the actions taken by the club.

So far the words coming out of MFC are not encouraging with mixed messages about money available, eg the war chest is separate is at odds with waiting for money coming in and 'it is up to Keith and Steve'.

I was over at Macclesfield to see the game (see John Powls on Boro Banter for some comments if it is of interest). The players on show were basically our current squad minus Tuncay, Mido, Alves, Johnson, Taylor, Wheater, Riggott and Pogo. We all expect some of those not to be with us at the start of the season. Of those on duty Huth, O'Neill or Aliadiere may go. It was a good chance to se what we have coming through

We did ok, first half we had a few problems but Yeates showed some good touches, Coyne bossed the area but is short for a goalie, Aliadiere had a hissy fit with a fan. Second half the fitness of fresh legs plus pace and movement started to tell against basically the same team.

The one thing to take out of the match was our need for someone to lead the line. Emnes and Franks showed great skills and movement but crossing into the box was as pointless as ever with no chance of converting or creating chances.

Lets hope the Count and Gibbo give Gate some pocket money.

PS Did you notice I can comment on the club but still go along and support the team. They are not mutually exclusive.

AV

Talk is that Villa have lost interest in Tuncay but that O'Neill is delighted with the Downing deal.

**AV writes: Our understandingis that there are teams vaguely interested in Tuncay but not yet ready to make a bid. They will leave it as late as possible to see if the price goes down our their own needs go up.

Can Mr Gibson and Mr Lamb please let Gareth know if he will have any money to spend this summer?

If not why not tell the rest of the squad who took us down that they are staying.
Surely the parachute payment and Downing transfer fee will cover the clubs wages for one season at least.

C'Mon Boro!

BoroPhil

No, and I dont give a monkeys. They should manage their communications better.

We have complained time and again about the mixed messages coming out of the club and they certainly unsettled the players and fans last season, contributing to our current plight.

Maybe they should just keep their traps shut because every time one of them opens their mouth some fool speaks.

They dont have to say anything, if they do make sure it is consistent. There is little point playing silly games if all it does is alienate the fans. That's us, the people who travel to Macclesfield for a pre season friendly.

It appears to be a lesson they havent learnt yet, I hope they do better in the other classes because on this one they get an E and the comment 'Sammy the Seal continues to ignore advice, if he doesnt take notice he will continue to underperform'

This season will see a very ordinary championship. I don't see any outright favourites for the title.

Consolidation is the order of the day for the club now. The current squad are more than capable of achieving promotion.This time next year the Boro will be in a position to move forward with strength.

Harsh lessons have been learned, the fans need to bite the bullet and get behind the team. Management and playing staff will come and go, but the fans remain the same.

WOW and did nobody see that we would not be spending money. Come on look at the signings made and the target players. We are going to have a team of none triers once these fancy dans have had a few crunching tackles.

I have just watched a re-run on the computer of why the boro got relegated and it was good to see and listen to the points of view, one of them my good friend Jeff Winter commenting on Aliadiare and the physio. When he plays you can bet the physio will come on at the very first tackle. How very right you are Jeff.

It is the same with many other players in this squad. We do not have any backbone to the team in midfield. So I dont know who he is going to sign. What happened to these signings to make us feel excited Southgate? you have made me worry for a long time - and before you start to write again Borophil, the signs for new season have been on the wall for weeks now. Substandard by a substandard manager.

Nigel

We were relegated - cold hard fact.

We scored 28 goals - cold hard fact.

The club sends out mixed messages - cold hard fact.

We can do nothing about the first two, the third is in the clubs hands.

The mystic assumption that communications are not purely for fans consumption misses the point that we still receive it and it will be used for good and less good purposes.

The 'other' recipients are not stupid, by telling them you are brassic and need money to come in it will only make them sit on their hands awaiting a fire sale.

The few of many is, as John Powls says, when you are in a hole stop digging. People can find enough ammunition without free donations from the club! Sometimes less is more.

Ian - Now that is where you and I disagree.

'The club send out mixed messages' is an opinion not a fact.

That we were relegated and it was because we didn't score enough goals are facts, opinions on why and commentary on competency are just that, they're not fact. Furthermore they more often than not are not delivered in a coherent, well constructed arguement by many posting on this blog.

My view is that the 'style' of posting on this blog has changed for the worse in recent months, that's my opinion.

My belief is that being the manager of a relegated team does not make you a bad manager, neither does buying a duff player. Whether or not GS is a 'good' manager I don't believe will be known for several seasons yet.

There is though, again in my opinion, reason to believe that appointing an inexperienced man to run a premiership club which was embarking on a cost reduction strategy, was a mistake.

That said Steve Gibson is human and makes mistakes, however he makes far more good decisions than bad ones and for that reason he has my full support. I haven't forgotten the unprecedented success that he has delivered for my football club.

**AV writes: I agree about the tone shifting over the summer - not just on here but in Teesside as a whole - but I think it is mainly because you are only as good as your last game and in Boro's they were relegated. There has been no chance to exorcise that particular ghost, no blood sacrifice to appease the torch and pitch-fork tendency and very little in the way of positive news or indeed any indication that there is any recognition of the public perception.

The club still have a few weeks to deal with that political time bomb but if it isn't defused very quickly indeed then every defeat will be an incendiary one.

AV

Talking about 'who said what' - do you recognise this?

"Most fans will accept even the best players will move on if it is shrewd business for Boro - but wasting the Downing dividend will be a disaster. The money must be seen as not just a quick cash in but as a catalyst. It must be used to not just start the rebuilding of the team but also the rebuilding of morale, of hope and ambition. It must be seen to lay the foundations of a team that can challenge for a swift return for the elite.

If Downing's exit can not be quickly turned into a boon for Boro then it will call into question the entire logic of the Academy system and it will be a damning indictment of the strategic vision of the club's management. Failure to make the Downing cash count will deepen the current crisis of faith and widen the gulf between club and fans."

Yes, it's the last two paragraphs of your blog above.

How does this square with your answer to my earlier post and 'MFC won't splash the (Downing Dividend) cash'?

No mention of more players to shift before MFC can spend in there.

It's a wonder you're not just as splenetic as most of the rest of us at this 'damning indictment' or has your view changed?

**AV writes: No my view hasn't changed but you seem to set a far more demanding timescale than I do. The stakes are very high indeed on what happens between now and the deadline - I believe the entire Gibson project is in the balance and I think the club understand that - but it is not realistic to expect them to go out and spend the lot within 48 hours, sticking the first thing they see into their shopping trolley. It is not Fantasy Football.

I want Boro to get the wasters out and get two or three quality players in that can galvanise the team, bring hope to the crowd and underpin a swift promotion charge - but I would rather they did it on deadline day and got it right than rush in half-cock, miss the best available talent AND still be stuck with a Mido.

Boro fans rarely stick to the facts, if only because they tend to get in the way of their spleen venting and scapegoating.

Here's some facts:

Fact: Boro have just enjoyed their longest spell in the top flight since the war, a spell in which they won their first ever trophy and played in a European final.

Fact: Boro had one of the lowest incomes through the gate and sponsorship in the premier league (but will probably have one of the biggest in the championship).

Fact: Boro are not grouped in with Man City, Villa and Everton. On almost every possible criteria they are grouped in with the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Birmingham, West Brom and Sunderland.... teams who have all been relegated and promoted a few times in the years we have been in the Prem.

Fact: The days when Boro could compete with big clubs for the likes of Barmby, Ravanelli and Boksic have long gone. We are light years behind on finances now.

Fact: Boro fans have drifted away from the club. Almost 10,000 lost off the gate since Bryan Robson's era.

Fact: Boro have more internationals (senior and U21) in their squad than any other Championship side and may youngsters who excelled on loan spells in this league.

Fact: Steve Gibson has personally and through his company funded the club to the tune of between £63-93m in a decade.

And here's some opinions:

Opinion: Boro fans have contributed to their own misery by moaning through a golden era that a lot seem to have not enjoyed and judging by gates for UEFA Cup matches, did not even bother to watch.

Opinion: So many people on Teesside are incredibly ungreatful to Gibson, accusing him of a lack of ambition, telling porkies, treason, of an under-handed deliberate policy to get relegated and being some kind of cheap skate. They should be embarrassed of themselves.

Opinion: Support of Boro should never be conditional on the chairman being able to spend more than he can afford on players. These people can't remember 1986. Better we have a club at a low level than have the padlocks on the gates again.

Opinion: Most of the faint-hearted "fans" on here who have turned on Gibson are weaklings who don't realise that then things get tough you are supposed to rally round, not throw a tantrum because you can't have your own way.

Opinion: Living away from Teesside I get no impression whatsoever that the rest of the country thinks Boro are about to implode. We are not a laughing stock for getting relegated (most things we have done well to avoid the inevitable for so long) and most have us among the favourites to go up.

Opinion: The season starts in three weeks. Until then the baseless paranoia and predictions of impending doom are pointless.

See you for Sheffield United.

Nigel

We were told by the club that there was a war chest and it was not dependent on who left or what money we got in. As Rafa would say. Fact

We are now told that money is dependent on people being shipped out and that any money is dependent on Keith and Steve. As Rafa would say. Fact

Are these homogenous or mixed messages? If not mixed what part of mixed arent they?

Time and again I have stated I do not know the monetary facts so will not comment on that side of the club. I have never called on the club to spend a fortune, I have regularly stated I thought most business will be late in the window.

It is not me making them a hostage to fortune by inconsistent communication.

We all know that money is tight, that relegation didnt help the situation. There is no need to send out different messages because they will get pulled up for doing so. In part, that is what this thread is about.

The club have created the problem and all I have said is how they have created it. Its not my fault the club have created the schism. I cannot undo the words.

Time and again on this blog I have said when things go wrong on the pitch fans will pick up on inconsistencies to beat the club over the head with. It is just another lesson to be learnt, or not.

Where I will stand and have rotten food thrown at me is my view that going for the likes of Webber and Hughes is a poor choice of target. That is an opinion.

The performance of some of the fringe players at Macclesfield lends me to think I prefer to utilise those rather than bring in Championship cast offs. That is an opinion.

Wait and bring in better players, don't fill the squad with players who wont improve it.

**AV writes: I am liking this self-imposed separation of fact and opinion. Fact.

Nigel and Tees Exile - spot on.

Tees Exile makes a good point about how the rest of the country perceives us - they expect us to go straight back up. As sick as a parrot says, our squad is more than good enough at the moment - AS IT IS.

There is so much more to be positive about than negative. But if some of you want to obsess about every word that comes out of the club and stamp your feet when they don't do exactly what they have said - well, that's up to you, but I've got better ways of spending my time.

Tees Exile should post more often. I almost always agree with everything he says. It's obvious that not living here gives him a sense of perspective most people here don't have.

Some guys agonise over every dot and comma and read more into what's between the lines than the actual words of everything Gibbo or Gate says in the Gazette or they watch the internet 24 hours a day and blow a gasket at every single rumour as if it is 'fact'.

They should all just chill. They are just throwaway quotes to Mr Paylor, not deadly serious political manifestos that have to stand up to Jeremy Paxman's questions.

To listen to some people you would think the club are broke and relegated already before a ball is kicked and that the only way out of it is to throw more money at the problem despite the credit crunch.

I've been following Boro 30 years and in that time it has never been an easy ride, it has always been a crisis of one sort or another and apart from once in 1986 (which Gibbo will NEVER let happen again) the doom mongers have always been way wrong. Not that they would ever admit it.

Just lighten up. If we can afford big signings Gibbo will spend it. If we can't well so what? Just go to the game and enjoy it. It's still Boro.

Fact - I love Boro

Fact - I can't watch them live on TV this season

Fact - I'll still stay up all night and listen on line

Opinion - Our current squad is probably the strongest in the division

Opinion - If GS can motivate then there would be no reason to think we won't be top on Aug 7th and stay there for the rest of the season

Fact - there's still 6 weeks to go to the close of the transfer window

Fact and opinion - a lot will change between now and then.

Opinion - IF we can afford them, and they're available Gibbo will spend.

Conclusion 1 - We are good enough but can GS motivate the big boys? (this will still be an issue when we return to the PL)

Conclusion 2- if you live on Teesside, get yourself a ticket and cheer on the lads. It's criminal to waste any opportunity when you have it, and you won't realise what you have until you don't have it.

Final Conclusion - time for another topic AV?

**AV writes: What? When the debate is just warming up? I think we are revealing a genuine philosophical difference in approach here.

Neil M

As I said in my posting to Nigel, people are poring over the utterances so a bit of care is called for or the words will be used as a weapon one way or another.

Somtimes less is more, too much detail can be dangerous. I suspect in dealings with the media there are no such things as off the cuff remarks from the journalists viewpoint.

Nigel

The wrong message was that we didnt need to sell to fund the changes, the work had been done and we were ready to move forward. Now we need to sell to buy etc. The message has morphed over the summer.

I have no quibble with the finances (dont like them but nobody does) but that in times of strife just dont shoot from the hip, make sure the message is consistent, then fans wont hold you to ransom.

It is a bit like the sit down, shut up and dont sing letter. It is pain that can be avoided.

There will be all sorts going on behind the scenes we dont and will probbaly never know about. That is life but dont make it harder for yourselves.

I am not ranting. merely suggesting put the spade down in future.

AV -

Any news on season ticket sales for this season. The mixed messages coming out of the club can hardly have helped with the ticket sales.

C'Mon Boro!

**AV writes: Last I heard was that sales were nudging towards 14,000 but that was a couple of weeks back and completely unofficial.

AV,

When you state that the club can/will/have fined Mido, how do they fine him?
Do they just stop his wages or stop his wages and also fine him. If it is the latter, we could have quite a sizeable sum towards new players.

**AV writes: He was docked two weeks wages (somewhere between £80-100k) for his no-show at pre-season training. That applies for the two weeks. Whether they have fined him another two weeks for failure to turn up on Monday I don't know.

I see Cleopatra's back. A kick up the asp wouldn't go amiss

BBC say:

"Blackpool complete Euell transfer. Midfielder Jason Euell becomes Blackpool's second signing of the summer after joining on a free transfer."

Some fans argue that he was one of GS' mistakes. Please note that in the division we are he is still wanted. So who says who is a bad player?

I agree with the recent posts - especially what Brisbane Phil and Tees Exile said. Please see the whole picture!

Up the Boro!

AV:

Your reply to Steve h at 9:08pm, 21 July -

**AV writes: It is the economics of the madhouse and it is unsustainable without billionaire backing. That's why Boro are trying to apply the brakes."

1. Is that an official statement of club strategy or policy?

2. Is Boro acting unilaterally, or can we expect to see some club solidarity?

3. Does the same intent apply to Manchelarsepool and the Premier League second, third and fourth strings?

Further things I have been wondering as an extension of your comment -

4. Has Richard Scudamore been consulted? Is he in agreement? Or has he been told to back off from his personal hedonistic headlong pursuit of Premier League global dominance?

5. Has the big bad Australian (no, not Ricky Ponting or Dame Edna Everidge!) been consulted and given it his approval? I’d have thought that given the present world economic circumstances, it would probably be strategically sensible for him to do so, rather than even consider directly or even indirectly underwriting any particular clubs’ debts or somehow otherwise influencing their creditors in their favour! Isn’t that what partnerships are all about? What a whacko scenario that is!! Wish I’d thought of it!

6. If 4 and 5 are inapplicable, (or inadmissible – your call!) could it be a strategy/ policy that's confined to the Football League clubs only?

7. Does it signal a definite end to Boro's Premier League ambition?

8. Can we expect Boro to "throw" the Championship if, by some miracle, we find ourselves in one of the top two positions next May? Because to stay up there amongst the sharks and the greedy men will require an abandonment of the return to comparatively frugal millionaire modesty that you imply is the deliberate club intent!! and therefore......

9. Has Steve Gibson deliberately misled Boro supporters into believing he fully intends to field a squad next season that is capable of maintaining and sustaining Boro in the Premier League? Because that's what many of us are waiting to see and hear!

So many questions! So few answers!

**AV writes: It is churlish to think I am privy to club strategic policy making or to imply that because I seek to explain where I believe they are positioned - which is after all my job - that I endorse it, or somehow should be expected to answer for it or indeed for the wider political economy of the game as a whole.

On the points you raise I would say tmbition is just a form of shorthand for a willingness to spend vast amounts of money, which is OK if you have it and a very high risk strategy if you don't. For now Boro don't and they have taken steps to rein in spending and the key area of spending is a £30m plus wage bill.

There has been no secret about that. Boro have spent beyond their means for a decade in order to sustain mid-table security but as the teams above them have put more cash on the table they have struggled to meet the raised stakes needed to avoid the pull of football gravity. The process of economic determinism has been underway for years now, something you understood and articulated clearly and regularly until disillusioned by relegation you have changed tack.

The club don't want to be at a lower level with reduced income. It is ridiculous to suggest that relegation it is part of any planned strategy. It is a massive set-back that brings with it huge added risk for the future and if they don't get back up at the first attempt the problems will really start to bite.

Boro desperately want to be back up on the gravy train but they know they can't do it by throwing money at big name players on vast wages who can't be relied on to deliver value for money or end product on the pitch. In that sense, yes it is the end of ambition. Investment will be far more cautious and less eye-catching. If they go back up it will be with a far lower cost-base and a much changed perspective closer to a cut-price Bolton-on-Tees than Arsenal-lite.

I don't think the club have misled people in that - the evidence is all there from the piecemeal policy statements of recent times - but I do think they have New Labour style "failed to get their message across," partly because no one from the club has attempted to engage with the fans or addressed the nation to outline the new vision with any real zest or purpose and partly because there is now an ingrained resistance to any such statements from a demoralised fanbase.

Yes the writing has been on the wall for some considerable time. I have been on the Boro rollercoaster for over 50 years and seen them all come and go. from the good and the bad players and managers.

I have also been 4th official (referee) at Ayresome Park and sat next to Bruce when he was in charge and this man was so dedicated to management it was unbelievable the players would have run through a brick wall for him. However, when time came for change he paid the price. The players he had then were much better than we have now. I thank Gibson for saving the club and all of the good times we have had.

There was a mention of Merson above I do not agree with the statement I think Merson was one of the best buys this club made, he dictated the whole of the Boro play and he only fell apart when Boro signed Gascoigne. What a waste that was.
Merson lost it after that.

Boro need a disicpinarian similar to Bruce. Even Bernie speaks very highly of him (now thats something) I do hope that the good times come back, but we all have to be realistic. This manager, I dont think so. My opinion and I stick to it.

Really dont think its whats in the pot thats the problem, its the wage bill. We have a full compliment of strikers (i use the word striker very loosely) on the wage bill so until one moves we cant bring one. That probably is the same for the backline. Only the midfield is two short after last years dealings.

I think we are starting to find out how bad we realy were last year as the so called stars are not moving as quickly as they thought. Nobody wants negative losers even the Turk. Yes he has skill and tried hard for some of the season but it will not have gone unoticed how he was not so good at times. We are in a wait and see position.

Sad to see the last true part of the UEFA cup run leave, the end of an era.

But I have just bought the new home kit and hope we dont lose too many more quality players. Before Alves was in the picture I was crying out for Crouchy as he could make use of Downings crosses. It is too late now though.

Hope we win some games this season.

AV:

Woo! Bitch! Me, churlish? Never!

In our analyses, you and I are pretty well on the same page, really. But I have the “luxury” (actually, it’s painful, if I’m to be truthful) of offering an alternative perspective. You on the other hand may be constrained by having factual evidence, as well as it being your job!

As far as acknowledgement of your own position in the matter goes, reference to my latest Boro Banter Blog – written and published before my conjectural post at 11:27PM, on 21 July, should make it obvious that I understand your position quite clearly. I’ve given you full credit for being the local arbitration service!

The danger is that instead of being a local ACAS Counsellor, you are seen to become an MFC mouthpiece. Now, from my perspective, that’s not altogether such a bad idea. Because someone articulate, with a bit of gumption who understands public opinion and concerns, SHOULD be fronting officially for MFC on such matters to make sure that the public are kept on-side. (Personally, I don’t see that as a churlish observation, but there you go! “The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft a-gley” – ask Steve Gibson!)

You’d probably have to lose the earring though!

My “disillusionment”: This, I can freely admit, is personal to me and it’s twofold.

Firstly, it’s with the direction and excesses of football in general - something that will have been obvious, as you point out, from the nature of many contributions to your blog for two years or so, and in Boro Banter over the past year.

My eyes are and have been wide open! In fact, I’m prepared to take credit for opening up the debate about what the prime factors are in modern football success and my continued and unshakeable contention that money rules above all else! As for my disillusionment being triggered by relegation, you’re wrong.

I am “disappointed” by relegation, not “disillusioned” by it. Neither was my “change of tack” triggered by relegation per se, by the way. I’ll explain that.

The second source of my disillusionment lies within MFC - the club’s communications – or lack of it.

This was a creeping condition based on a growing realisation and a final, hard-won considered view that, while the Boro support were encouraged to keep turning out week after week, for the past three seasons, many of us hoping for a return to Europe, behind the scenes significant but “invisible”, or at least “well shielded” financial change was happening that was moving us in the opposite direction. Yet we were allowed and encouraged to believe that nothing had changed as far as realisable sporting ambition was concerned.

At its best, this could only be inept communications. At worst, it could be deliberate withholding of a change of reality which MUST have been obvious to the officers within the club. And it was only in retrospect that when the evidence began to accumulate, like Mendietta being sidelined, like Woodgate, Xavier and Yakubu leaving, citing lack of ambition, that we were left to draw our own conclusions in spite of continued talking up of “Arsenal lite” and “fast attacking football”.

The last slap in the face for fans, which was met with universal consternation, was the sale of Luke Young a week before the season started!

It finally dawned on many people at that time, that there had been a serious internal change in attitude. But when we reflected on it retrospectively, it became apparent that it had been being worked through since Southgate was appointed, without anyone at the club acknowledging the reality to the fans.

So the Boro component of my disillusionment is not the relegation, but because a hitherto exemplary chairman who was prepared to take all the plaudits accruing when Boro were on the “up” was less inclined to expose his popular public persona when things were getting tougher.

The trigger for my “change of tack” was his BBC Radio Tees phone-in, in which to me at least, his pride still got in the way of him being as candid as he might have been. And that’s why I didn’t renew my season ticket – because I don’t do “blind faith” – especially when asked for it by someone who has been evidently less than candid with hard facts. The seeds of doubt planted in my mind, had already grown roots on the basis of accumulated and unexplained evidence.

And its because of those same doubts, shared by many others, that there is much debate and concern being posted on this blog and elsewhere as the start of the new season approaches.

I think we, both, and many others can and do accept the reality of the widening gulf between the Premier League and clubs the like of Boro. I do think it’s disingenuous however, for officials at the club to present their ambition for the club in a light which they must recognise is inconsistent with their ability to fund it. That’s what’s at the heart of my “change of tack”.

Although he’s taken huge amounts of stick for it, Keith Lamb has probably been the guy who’s been most up-front and honest with the public. Gibson on the other hand, values his public persona a bit too much.

Perhaps the reality is somewhere in the middle, but I feel that supporters deserve a more studied and considerate style and content of communication from the club that treats them with respect and accords them the status that club officials glibly acknowledge around season ticket renewal time – like politicians around election time!

**AV writes: Some fair points but I can't really see me ever being the mouthpiece for the Boro. I prefer the tension and drama of the bad cop role.

Richard's Boro Banter bit on the club's close season PR performance can be found on Gazettelive at:

http://borobanter.gazettelive.co.uk/2009/07/if-you-have-nothing-to-say-say.html#more

I have no problem with AV trying to make sense of the bits of the jigsaw with the money situation as a public service but I compeltely agree with Richard that it should not really be down to him.

The club should hold a public meeting (not cosy and controlled on BBC Brownlee) with Gibbo taking questions from real fans and answering them honestly. We are not kids. If they ask for our money and support the least they can do is tell us exactly where we stand.

The silence just lets all kinds of confusion, rumours, lies, hysterics and stupidity take hold among the fans and the club make it worse by their complete lack of PR.

New topic now please AV.

Richard

The writing was on the wall during the MacMoses reign. At the time of Season Ticket Gate much debate was on would he be sacked. My stated view was that I thought he wouldnt but that major changes would occur in the summer.

The squad were doing OK in the cups but the league form had been pants for the previous 12 months. The squad was ageing and expensive and would need rebuilding.

Southgate came down from Roseberry Topping where Gibbo appeared as a burning bush and the rest is history.

Our lads are up by the bonny, bonny banks of Loch Lomond apart from the victims of migratory injuries and the immovable nature of the Sphinx. (I dread to think what several days of pudding suppers and Scotch pies would do to our Egyptian friend, throw in some slicing sausage and he'd need an Eddie Stobart flatback to transport him back.)

The excitement of a friendly at Dumbarton, cant wait!

I will submit this to the official censor and hope he gets Lambies approval. I take that back, I cant see AV getting onto the board as a fans representative.

This is one of the best articles i have read in a long. time and made me feel an array of emotions.

how we have fallen from UEFA Cup to relegation hurts and with no view to a return im kind of left lost

I've not posted on here for a while. This post is so negative. I wonder how many football fans are on here.

I look forward to the new season and would be happy to have two or three seasons in this league provided we were building a real and proper team.

Borophil. Agree with most of what you say. Stay positive!

Nigel:

It's under continuous review! As I've said before it depends on the club and whether I consider I'm getting value for money.

Coincidentally, I bought my ticket for the Sheffield United Match today! (I bought my old season ticket seat - so, clearly, nobody's taken it!!). I'm hangin' in there, fulfilling MY personal contract with the club.

I don't know if that's blind faith or not, but it's what I promised myself I'd do - give the club a fair chance to demonstrate their intent.

It wasn't David Armstrong who, 40 years ago this week said, "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind!", was it?