Boro Struggle In The Money League
SORRY. Dull bean-counting stuff again. David Conn's annual preview of the Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance accounts of the Premier League in the Guardian (and picked up and padded out on the BBC) has revealed the clubs have a collective debt of £3.1 billion. Not even the most brass-necked of MPs could get that through on expenses.
In the club-by-club breakdown Conn, who has recently run the rule over Boro in some detail, says that things at the Riverside had looked bleak until a recent rejiggle of the finances but now look relatively healthy. Phew.
In his pen picture of Boro's books he says:
State they're in: The debts of £93m, the result of Middlesbrough trying to punch above their weight for years, look alarming for a relegated club. Middlesbrough insiders, however, say the borrowings have been reduced since these accounts to below £30m. The owner-chairman Steve Gibson is expected to invest further, although the plan to balance the books next season by selling Stewart Downing has been ruptured by Downing's ankle injury in the penultimate game of the season.
The first question is obviously 'hasn't anyone told the Guardian we have been relegated?' Sadly they know. On their news pages (and at the BBC and Sky) we have been shuffled off the swanky page and dumped off the Big Tim Charlie radar to the darkest recesses where "just a couple of blob pars on the end of the Sunderland story" constitutes reasonable coverage. Welcome to the little league.
The accounts in question are the most recently available, for most clubs they were filed in May or June 2008 but in Boro's case it was December 2007, an anomaly after they changed their accounts cycle last year.
The next question is how come the debt has mysteriously been slashed from £93m to £30m seemingly overnight? Especially as Boro were apparently borrasic as recently as January and the gaffer has spent much of the last year pleading pverty.
Well, the first factor is that a major slice of the unsecured debt that fell due in the past 12 months has been paid, on schedule and in full so has worked its way through the accounts and off the other side. Sources suggest that some £28m of scheduled debt - made up mainly of instalments on transfer fees due for the likes of Alves, Mido, O'Neil, Young, Alaidiere, Woodgate and Huth but also including £7.2m in interest payments on bank loans - has been paid.
That pressing urgency of that debt was among the main reasons that there was so little in the pot for transfers last summer and why the wage bill has been slashed so aggressively over the past three years, to prevent annual losses adding to the debt. Last season only the three promoted teams had a smaller wage bill than Boro. And it showed. It is no coincidence that the first season Boro had a negligible net spend and dipped into the bottom four in the wage table that they went down. Only the three clubs relegated in teh season covered by the report had smaller wage bills.
It is easy to point to the investment in the golf and leisure development at Hurworth or to other parts of the Bulkhaul operation and assume they are 'draining' Boro of cash. In fact, the opposite is true. The biggest drain on Bulkhaul much surely be the football division which regularly posts pre-tax losses of £10, 12, 15m and more, hence the pressure from above for the restructure of the finances.
Another reason for the rapidly reduced debt is a financial reorganisation behind the scenes. Russian doll corporate structures, internal accounting and tax efficiency are a mystery to me (any accountants who want to explain in simple terms how the system works, feel free) but they have worked to the advantage of the football club for other a decade now and are at play again.
In short, by reducing the debt liability on Boro Gibson has created some headroom for Boro to spend again next term. Far from imploding, Boro are healthy and looking to recruit as they assemble a squad that can come straight back up.
With the reductions in the wage bill over the past two years and the debt being tackled Boro now have the ability to compete in the transfer market again. They may not be able to match the Premier League muscle - don't expect an eyebrow raising Paul Merson style signing - but they still should be among the biggest payers in the Championship. The last available figures suggest that the average wage in the Premier League is £690,000 a year but in the Championship it is just £169,000.
And the indications are that Boro will maintain their existing wage bill for at least the first season down in order to fund a promotion push and with several big earners set to leave that will create the room to add maybe five or six established players to the squad to take on a tough campaign with a lot more games. It should be possible for Boro to comfortably pick and choose from among the best, most experienced proven players at that level to pepper the nucleus of the young side they intend to keep and build on.
Elsewhere in Conn's report there are some interesting nuggets: Liverpool are owned through a series of offshore companies and their accounts are well overdue; Manchester United paid £69m in INTEREST on their £699m debt in 2007-08 and in total have so far shelled out £263m in interest on the mortgage the Glazers took out to buy the club in 2005; Newcastle's situation is "a calamity" and they need to be sold or refinanced urgently or face "financial collapse"; and West Ham are only kept solvent by the Icelandic courts because it is the only tangible asset left in Bjorgolfur Gudmundsson's portfolio after his and the entire countty's economy collapsed.
Want to work through some of the comparative data to see where Boro stand when measured against the rest? Here's some I did earlier for the blog that crunches numbers so you don't have to.....
Gate And Matchday Income:
Manchester United £101m
Arsenal £95m
Newcastle £32.3m
Tottenham £28.6m
Everton £20.5m
Aston Villa £18.5m
West Ham £17m
Manchester City £13.6m
Sunderland £13.6m
Portsmouth £12m
MIDDLESBROUGH £11.1m
Fulham £9.6m
West Brom £7m
Bolton £6.8m
Blackburn £6.2m
(Hull, Liverpool, Stoke and Wigan, no figures available)
Income From Commercial Activity And Sponsorship:
Chelsea £189m*
Manchester United £64m
Arsenal £31m
Newcastle £27.4m
Manchester City £25.4m
Tottenham £18m
West Ham £16m
Sunderland £14.4m
Aston Villa £11m
Fulham £10.1m
MIDDLESBROUGH £9.9m
Bolton £9.4m
Blackburn £9m
Everton £8.9m
Portsmouth £7.3m
West Brom £6.2m
*Chelsea, includes matchday revenue. There is no breakdown of total football income.
(Hull, Liverpool, Stoke and Wigan, no figures available.)
Outstanding Debt:
(As of May/June 2008):
Chelsea £701m
Manchester United £699m
Arsenal £416m
Liverpool £280m
Fulham £197
Manchester City £147m
Newcastle £106.2m
MIDDLESBROUGH £93m*
Aston Villa £73m
Sunderland £69.2m
Wigan £66.4m
Tottenham £65m
Portsmouth £57.7m
Bolton £52m
Everton £39m
West Ham £36m
Blackburn £17m
West Brom £8.9m
Stoke £2.3m
Hull £1m
*Since massively reduced. See above.
Annual Wage Bill:
Chelsea £149m
Manchester United £121.1m
Arsenal £101.3m
Newcastle £74.6m
Portsmouth £54.7m
Manchester City £54.2m
Tottenham £52.9m
Aston Villa £50.4m
Everton £44.5m
West Ham £44.2
Blackburn £39.7m
Fulham £39.3m
Bolton £39m
Wigan £38.4m
Sunderland £37.1m
MIDDLESBROUGH £34.8m
West Brom £21.8m
Stoke £11.9m
Hull £6.9m
(Liverpool not available)
******
MEANWHILE, in a different type of number-crunching there are some nice stats, some names that loom from the grainy Pathe News fog of history and a rare mention of Tony Vidmar in Boro's role of honour on the club website where it is revealed that glass-footed Berlin Wall Robert Huth has just become the club's 100th international
*******
AND the excellent 101 Great Goals website - a YouTube style video library that is a celebration of glorious global net-busting action - has rounded off the season with its selection of the 101 best goals of 2008-09. Brilliant. Sorry, but no Boro. Enjoy....
Older/Newer
« Boro's Slippery Slope To Broken Dreams | "We Were Found Out" Admits Lamb »
47 Comments
Leave a comment
Profile
Anthony Vickers
Keep up to date
Follow Untypical Boro on
Attempting to discus the debts with Boro is ultimately pointless as we are told as much as the club need to tell us legally, not much with limited companies, and how much they want to tell us for their own reasons.
At the end of the day you may think you have an understanding of the situation but without knowing how and why money is moved around Mr G's companies, we are always in the dark.
One of the few things I can remember him saying on the record is that Boro is a 'tax efficient' subsidiary of Bulkhaul. That means debts are be parked there for a while if it benefits the whole group, some debts could be canny accounting; moving property from one company to another, assigning it as a debt which can be paid back out of income without tax.
On the matter of income and wages, a couple of things that jump out.
Our wage bill was 34m compared to two teams that stayed up, Hull and Stoke, 12m an 7m. Ok, we are in the bottom four, but hardly out of touch with the likes of Fulham, Blackburn, Bolton and Wigan who all performed better than Boro out of all proportion to their higher wages. We undoubtedly have a few academy players on the cheap at the moment, so in reality our squad may not have been weaker than many of those who finished in the eight or so above us.
Our income from gates and commercial is also better than many who stayed up and again not out of reach of others, Fulham notably, who did a lot better than us.
So, the idea of Boro 'punching above their weight' which seems to be spin of the week at the moment is not quite as compelling as we are led to believe. So are Bolton, Wigan, Fulham, Blackburn, Stoke, Hull, Portsmouth....
So why did they stay up and we have a one way ticket to Palookaville? Well they had: Megson, Bruce, Hodgson, Allderyce, Pullis, Brown and whoever replaced Adams. Pushing it with Brown maybe.
We had.....
Brentford is spot on, our situation has nothing whatsoever to do with money and everything to do with bad management of the team and of the club.
If I had the time I'd like to see a spending comparison over the last three years. I bet we're not in the bottom three then either! Someone have a look and post the results!
Its one excuse after another. To listen to GS you'd think we can only afford to put out a YTS team rather than having assembled one of the most expensive 'striking forces' in the premiership!
Its all good and well Gibson saying they take collective responsibility and GS will not be made a scape goat, but its not a case of a scape goat. Gibson owns the club and we'd not find a buyer so he stays but GS and coaches are at fault.
Buying / Selling / Selection / Attitude / Public motivation / Getting the best out of a squad... he has FAILED AT ALL OF THEM. GS and CC both defenders and over a season they can not improve our defence. Lowest scorers going but do we get a striking coach in? NO! What has he done to show he is good at his job? Honestly, what? I travel 400 miles to watch every home game and I'll do the same next season and I'll get behind the team.
However, the honeymoon is over for GS and if we see the same things next season as we have witnessed this, then after 10 games I hope the crowd makes their frustrations known rather than keeping schtum. Whats the point of having a local man at the helm if he does not listen to local people & 25,000 cant be wrong! Fair's fair! Rant over...
**AV writes: I don't know about over the last three years but I have some figures of net spend over the past two summers that shows Boro on £4.4m - by a long way the lowest in the league, well behind Hull, West Brom and Stoke even.
You can argue all day about how badly the money was spent or whether AN Other would get more bangs for your buck but you can't get away from the reality that Boro's slump is in direct correlation to the slash and burn policy of spending cuts.
Having heard Gibbo say that £40m have been cut from the debt and that money is there for a few older heads last week I am starting to feel a bit more confident for next season.
If as you say we will be the big payers next year I think we can attract some good players. It is only a few years since we were in UEFA Cup final remember. We'll be fine.
Boro obviously need to develop some new revenue streams in order to compete. Maybe they should move into some new untapped markets away from their traditional heartlands. Like Stockton for instance.
**AV writes: Ouch. Naughty. That said I was thinking today that one way to heal the wounds of Mackemgate would be for Boro to open a club shop in Stockton town centre - ease of access to tickets and the trendy new Adidas kit plus an obvious and visible presence would maybe build bridges and make a few bob.
I was at Ayresome Park when The Boro beat Oxford 4-1.
Swings and Roundabouts.
AV wrote: “I don't know about over the last three years but I have some figures of net spend over the past two summers that shows Boro on £4.4m - by a long way the lowest in the league, well behind Hull, West Brom and Stoke even”.
I’d be interested to know where your figures differ from the following.
Middlesbrough transfer dealings 2006-09
In:
Aliadiere £2m, Alves £13m, Arca £1.75m, Digard £4m, Euell £0.3m, Emnes £3.2m, Hoyte £3m, Huth £6m, Mido £6m, O’Neil £5m, Shawky £0.65m, Woodgate £7m, Young £2.5m. (£54.4m)
Out:
Boateng £1m, Cattermole £3.5m, Craddock £0.08m, Davies £1m, Hutchinson £0.25m, Morrison £1.75m, Queudrue £2.5m, Woodgate £7m, Yakubu £11.25m, Young £5.5m (£33.83m)
Total net expenditure £20.57m
Average net annual expenditure £6.86m.
The purse strings don’t seem to have been overtight, at least during the first two years. I think the figures for several clubs still in the Premier League will be below those.
**AV writes: My figures differ from yours because the ones I have are over two years - as stated - while yours are over three. What a difference a year makes.
I compiled the sums for transfer spending over two years and over five years for a column about borrasic Boro's failure to add much needed reinforcements.in January to point out the radical change in policy. They never got used because I got diverted into something else but I'll dig them out.
They are very interesting - not least because they show the gulf that has opened up between Boro and the teams we were said to be competing with until very recently - Man City, Villa, Spurs, Newcastle, West Ham - and how the teams we were so recently well ahead of financially - Bolton, Wigan, Portsmouth etc - have overtaken us in transfer spend.
"That said I was thinking today that one way to heal the wounds of Mackemgate would be for Boro to open a club shop in Stockton town centre - ease of access to tickets and the trendy new Adidas kit plus an obvious and visible presence would maybe build bridges and make a few bob."
I was advocating that in the Robson era because I detected how the club took the crowds we were getting then for granted.
The figures produced by AV contradict outright, the assertion made by Gibson in his infamous, undiplomatic, amateurish, brand bruising, faux pas riddled radio interview, that "we had the lowest income stream through the turnstiles of all last seasons Premier League clubs."
And Brentford is spot on in that it nails the lie being spun by Gibson et al that we have been punching above our weight.
This insipid, cynical, drip, drip propoganda stream became increasingly intense as the season wore on, in a clear symmetry with the nosedive in standards on the pitch.
Anybody with half a brain, can see that this crass campaign was a woeful attempt at apologising and covering up for the abject failure and weakness of management; one which brought the eleven year stay among the elite of British football to an end in such ignominious disarray.
To plead poverty in circumstances where he contrived to have £25m worth of footballers acting as bench warmers at the beginning of the season is disingenuous in the extreme of Southgate; oh how the managers of Hull, Stoke, West Brom, etc could have afforded such profligacy.
The wisest words I heard spoken from within the football circus recently were those of the great Guus Hidink when praising the achievements of David Moyes at Everton.
He recognised that Everton had far more limited resources at their disposal relative to the "big four" In these situations management had to demonstrate a "great deal of professionalism and expertise".
How appropriate and in context is this wise commentary? And how relative, to our debate on our massive mismanagement?
It's not the squeeze on resources that has caused such implosion but the crass misjudgement in appointing someone wholly inappropriate and unqualified to manage such a demanding task.
**AV writes: I agree that the money that was available through wheeling and dealing could and should have been better spent but footballers are essentially greedy and the most important figure in those lists is the wage bill. The wage gap between Boro and Everton for instance is £10m and that translates into five players on £40k a week. How much difference would that have made this season?
Under McClaren the wage ceiling was far higher which made it possible to bring in the likes of Hasselbaink, Mendieta, Parlour and Viduka for a total outlay of £4.5m ... but they were earning £7m plus a year in wages between them. It is amazing how much better you can perform in the transfer market when you can piles huge amounts of cash on the table.
I would just like to point out that David Moyes has spent just over £26 million NET in 7 years at Everton. In his time at Goodison he has only had one season where relegation was a real threat. So money isnt everything.
The club has never been and never will be transparent about its financial situation, they will only tell you what they want you to know and when it suits them.
There is still no getting away from the faults that Southgate has as a manager. The three amigos were happy with the squad at the start of the season but they failed to deliver on the pitch and the club did nothing about it. No wonder there has been conspiracy theories.
Yes I do wish Southgate was gone but we all knew that wasnt going to happen so all we can do is back the team as best as we see fit.Some will stay away and some will be more selective whilst seeing how we perform early season.
Lets hope we get our backroom problems sorted now and then sort the squad out quickly so we get out the blocks quickly in August.
"we had the lowest income stream through the turnstiles of all last seasons Premier League clubs." Hardly surprising when you realise the fans were seeing the culmination of three years of dross under Southgate. If you want big crowds, play attractive football and win a few games.
How many home games did Boro win? Not many.
Our Home supporters had to put up with amateurish displays, no fight, no idea. Bad enough watching it on television, without having to actually pay to see it, and spend the whole afternoon getting their and back in the traffic jams on the A66.
The Home supporters deserve nothing but praise for their loyalty. They don't deserve another sly dig from Gibson who should remember that the fans ultimately make or break a football club. All he seems to do is insult his fan base. He can no longer call himself a fan, as he seems totally out of touch with what the rest of us see and feel.
How is it that Stoke can pay 1/3 of the wages we pay, yet get 3 times the amount of fight, effort and ultimately will to win, than our players?
Hmmm. Well, 3 things stand out:
1. Experienced and respected manager
2. Lack of complacency
3. Good transfer dealings
1. Pulis has the players respect. He knows what he wants them to do. He comes up with a WORKABLE formation and playing style, and sticks to it. His principles may be (deep down) that fancy tippy-tappy football would be nice - but he was realistic enough to realise that as a small club the best you're going to get is to lob it into the box and get a big ugly head on it.
2. Their players are paid less. So it matter so much more to them, in terms of bonuses and wage increases, to stay in the top league. They are financially motivated as well as other forms of motivation. It is a long accepted management principle that money is a faulty motivator.
It doesn't really work in the long run - and breeds greed and complacency - like some of our lot. Ultimately, motivation involves many factors, and Stoke's management obviously drilled this into their players, in terms of playing style, fight etc. A lot of this came from Pulis.
3. Not top of everyone's list, but Beattie (one time Boro target) scored some crucial goals this season for Stoke after his January move. If only we'd got him instead of King, maybe he'd have scored the goals to keep us up?
Ifs and buts - however, Southgate does not appear to have got the best out of his more expensive charges, so what makes us think he suddenly will next season?
**AV writes: Stoke's players may be paid less - but they will have got a massive pay rise on promotion and were on big, big bonuses to stay up so there is still a big monetary motivation there - although yes, good management, simple tactics tailored to the players available, the team spirit and belief forged in winning in the Championship and knowing they are underdogs also big factors.
Anyone see the average attendance figures on sky sports news last night?
Going by Gibbo & Gates statements one would expect us to have one of the lowest attendance figures. WRONG!!
We were 12th in the table of average attendances. Thats right 12th. This little club with too small a fan base to compete against the other 19 giants in the league.
Our matchday income seen in the figures at the start of this blog does not match our attendance figures, thats because we have weak unimaginative people running the show who aren't getting the maximum from what they have. The whole matchday marketing strategy needs a complete overhaul (but then what doesn't at this club?)
We ARE NOT punching above our weight. The problems we have are caused by us not punching AT our weight. If we punched at our weight we would still be in the PL.
The same old excuses rolled out by Gibbo, Lamb & Southgate are getting weaker & weaker by the day. Change the record guys, face facts, get your heads out of the sand & take a long bloody hard look in the mirror. The 3 of you are the reason we have bombed. Stop trying to shift the blame on to everyone else!
**AV writes: Gates went up this season but revenue went down. That is not because of a lack of imagination though, it is because many of the full price ST who left have been replaced by kids on bargain fiver a ticket rates and there were a string of value for money ticket initiatives... that is not a bad thing.
I think that there is a fourth point that Smoggy In Exile may have missed and that is the passionate backing that the Stoke fans have been praised for this season.
I know it's easier to get behind a team that is working hard for each other and getting good results, but I think we all know that the atmosphere at our place is pretty poor more often than not.
Another fact I decided to ponder was the average revenue per head based on matchday income and average attendences for the season based on the available facts (dont know how accurate it will be as matchday revenue would include Cup competitions while the average season attendances figures I have are soley for the league):
MATCH DAY INCOME:
Manchester United £101m
Arsenal £95m
Newcastle £32.3m
Tottenham £28.6m
Everton £20.5m
Aston Villa £18.5m
West Ham £17m
Manchester City £13.6m
Sunderland £13.6m
Portsmouth £12m
MIDDLESBROUGH £11.1m
Fulham £9.6m
West Brom £7m
Bolton £6.8m
Blackburn £6.2m
Average Attendance:
Manchester United: 75304
Arsenal: 60040
Newcastle: 48750
Tottenham: 35929
Everton: 35667
Aston Villa: 39812
West Ham: 33700
Manchester City: 42900
Sunderland: 40168
Portsmouth: 19830
MIDDLESBROUGH: 28429
Fulham: 24340
West Brom: 25828
Bolton: 22486
Blackburn: 23479
AVERAGE ANNUAL MATCHDAY REVENUE PER HEAD:
Arsenal: £1582
Manchester United: £1341
Tottenham: £796
Newcastle: £663
Portsmouth: £605
Everton: £575
West Ham: £504
Aston Villa: £464
Fulham: £395
MIDDLESBROUGH: £390
Sunderland: £338.57
Manchester City: £317
Bolton: £302
West Brom: £271
Blackburn: £264
That means we were the 6th cheapest side to support...
In the end it now boils down to can we compete financially to get back in the PL and from tonight's news that GS is pulling out of signing one of the best players in the Championship "because other teams are interested in him" means the answer is NO.
So regardless of what SG said on the radio last week we see that our ambitions are not even to compete with West Brom.
Whatever happened to a Boro manager flying off to Brazil to negotiate hard and sign the Brazilian Player of the Year as a statement of intent ? Now GS is giving up the ghost to even sign an average Spanish guy who was loaned from an average Spanish team to Swansea because there's a couple of other teams interested.
What kind of message is this GS ? Not only to the fans but to players who we might want to keep here or players who get asked to come? The message is coming through loud and clear Gareth, there are still lessons to be learnt !
I see that Southgate has 'dramatically' pulled out of the race for Gomez seemingly because there is competition for his signature.
I suppose one ought to be grateful for the Boro Manager doing anything dramatic - even if it's only showing his distaste for competition that was evident in the trashing of our Prem status.
But surely anyone worth having is going to have other teams in the race for their signature. Conversely, anyone who can be got without a competition probably isn't worth having.
Are we in for another embarrassing transfer window like January culminating in an undignified and unsuccessful last minute scramble in late August to try to pick up the dregs that others don't want, coupled with unsatisfactory deals with the 'still here on sufferance' brigade like Pogi.
I said earlier that positive action from MFC would be the best healer - so let's see some.
'Southgate pulls out of auction for Gomez'. Well, what did you expect when you announce your transfer targets to the world? It allows other clubs to join in the feeding frenzy and force prices up.
Let the club keep it's mouth shut about potential targets, till after it's gotten their signature on a contract.
How many times is this going to happen before the club learns it's lesson? Just look where Forlan is these days. He SHOULD have been a Boro player, but loose lips let Man Utd hijack the signing.
**AV writes: To be fair you can't pin this one on the club, they haven't said a word. The information was put into the public domain by sources close to the player, in whose interest it is that there is an auction.
I have been reading this blog for a number of years and have never left a comment before. I have witnessed 4 relegations to date and this one has got to have been the most pathetic fight for survival of them all by a country mile.
As far as I am concerned the financial situation is secondary to the performance over the last three years of the manager and his coaches to get the best out of an average bunch of players.
I have no confidence in the current setup to get us out of the championship and have heard nothing positive to come out of the club since we were 'officially' relegated. Maybe if they announced that Arca's contract had been terminated by mutual consent... that would be a start.
And one more thing. Southgate, any players you DO end signing had better be worth the money. Your transfer dealings since becoming manager are a disgrace. We don't want another Alves. We don't want another 'project'.
We want players who will produce the goods immediately, play in their right positions, and put the effort and fight in, to help us achieve promotion.
"The wage gap between Boro and Everton for instance is £10m and that translates into five players on £40k a week. How much difference would that have made this season?"
None whatsoever because the current management team are weak and completely useless at getting players to perform at their peak. Not one player last season reached their potential because of them.
This was the very point I was trying to establish; i.e. very poor management of available resources - hence the Gus Hiddink quote re expertise and professionalism.
The comparision with Everton is relative to their potential and our potential; i.e. they compete with the top four our expectation is to finish above the other "small town", lesser lights in the lower reaches of the P.L.
A half decent manager would have kept us up, it's really as simple as that, and no amount of creative accounting can alter that fact in the vast majority of fans view.
In recent seasons we have had players like Mendietta and Boksic on more than 40k a week and the return on those investments has been very poor indeed; so it's not just about throwing money at players.
How does a small club like Villareal produce top quality football sides year after year ?
I'm sorry, have I missed something here? AV posts a blog that can only be described as postitive, and yet all Ernie et al can do is whinge, moan and bleat on about the club always lying to us?
Things were never anywhere near as bad as some people would have us believe - administration just round the corner, eh?
What this does show is that we are in an excellent position to bounce straight back, and I'm sure Gareth won't be under any illusions as to what is expected. I fully expect us to be challenging at the top of the Championship right from the start, and if we aren't, I don't think even Gareth could survive that.
As for Gomez, it's funny how we don't believe a word the club says when it comes to positive things - but seemingly negative things must be 100% accurate.
I have no idea whether we have actually pulled out of the race for Gomez, but has anyone considered this could just be part of the negotiations?
I do agree however, that we need to get our ins and outs sorted as soon as possible, and as we have less time before the start of the season than usual, that doesn't give us much time to mess around.
I don't think the answer is to "pull out of the auction" for players like Gomez. If he is a player you really want, you table the the bid you are prepared to afford, on a "take it or leave it" basis to the selling club and the player himself.
Such a bid has a (very) limited time limit, so the selling club and player can make their own mind up whether to accept a guaranteed sum, or to reject it in the hope of a better (bigger) offer from somewhere else further down the line.
The risk to the seller and player is that because Boro make it clear they will not be drawn into an auction, so any auction would have one less bidder and so the sale value may be no better (or worse) than the offer tabled originally by Boro. The risk and the pressure is then all with the selling club and player and not with the Boro.
Doesnt anyone get it yet? Didnt you hear Gibsons radio interview? All he talked about was 'WE', 'We' thought this guy was a good player , 'we' thought we should do this ,'we' should do the other. He did conclude that 'we' had made mistakes,
So now we know, How they train, How they are coached, who really are our scouts, who picks the team,who signs the players,how much we pay for them,who we sell,
WE DO,(GIBSON<LAMB and SOUTHGATE). Why not sell the club on the internet, then 30,000 of us can run the club? What a joke, Best chairman in the league? He's got everyone conned
I have read the views of the gazette panel and let me say this: Steve Gibson is going to bring the axe down on heads which he knows are useless.
There could be a complete restructure established behind GS. Don't anyone be telling the fans they any good, because the lot are failures and if they have a job now, it is on a thread.
It's season ticket fairy tale time again. If the club debt is slashed it means that the holding company/owner/or someone is better off. What happened to the extra £30million per season TV money?
As AV knows, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, but the results last season have spoken for themselves. The players knew the club was gutted and were diillusioned (Pogatetz said as much) as were most of the staff.
The most meaningful ratio is the reported clubs' debts against the owners' net worth. As Lineker said, and he's seen all this at Leicester, Boro were in 'dire straits' - and this because of lousy management. SG sleep walked into this (too much bs) until someone put the boot in.
Boro, according to all and sundry, have to sell before they can buy, and they have done such a good job in destroying the perceptions created, that it remains to be seen just who they might tempt in the summer.
Which brings me to the key comparisons. How did Hull and Stoke do it (virtually all thought they were favourites to go down) ? One is that the Stoke chairman is reportedly worth about £400 million, how much of that did he 'risk' on headline players ? They did acquire Beattie for very little. Quite a contrast.
I agree with most of the posts on here, rank bad mismanagement is the cause of the demise of the Boro this season, SG makes out it was shock we got relegated. Pull the other one Steve and get rid of Southgate ASAP
The close season has got off to it's usual start with lot's of speculation about players and managers moving here, there and everywhere.
The big surprise to me is, with manager's jobs available at Wigan, Sunderland, Reading and Celtic that there has been no talk of Gareth Southgate being wanted by any of them. After all he has three year's experience in the Premier League.
Why does nobody want Gareth?
Answers on a postcard to Steve Gibson c/o Rockcliffe Holiday Park.
Just a follow up to my rant. Read Jackie Charltons autobiography, When he was interviewed for the job, HE,told them what HE wanted and then gave them 15 minutes to decide if he had the job, Thats a guy who believes in his ability to do the job,
David Moyes told the Everton chairman at his interview,(when they looked like they might go down.)" you will not get relegated if I am manager." Weve got people in charge who are still learning lessons
10,000 season tickets plus whatever is sold in the next couple of days adds up to this trueism Gibbo - You can fool some of the fans some of the time. You can fool some of the fans all of the time, but you can't fool all of the fans all of the time.
I see Ernie and John have thrown their toys out of the pram because 'Boro have pulled out of the race to sign Gomez', any opportunity to bash GS eh boys?
As you can see from AV's response to Ernie the true headline should have read 'Gomez agent reports Boro have pulled out'. Which gives the story different emphasis. The Gazette on the whole reports accuratley and honestly but they still need attention grabbing headlines.
The truth is we haven't got a clue about what activity is taking place re transfers and the Gazette can only rely on info from people with their own agendas.
AV
Very interesting.
For clubs of our size, it’s all about finding success as cheap as possible. We have lost a fortune on strikers and still have a serious problem in that area.
The scouting side of things which the Gazette sports team spoke about does seems non-existent. Yet we can produce top draw academy players consistently, but never a striker.
In December we could save money by asking the fans to bring a set of Christmas tree lights to the game and switch the floodlights off. Whatever happens I’m behind the team and always will be.
One thing struck me about the figures quoted above by AV.
Pompey (average attendance 19600) make more money from gate & matchday income than the Boro (avg 28400). How on earth does that work? Their season tickets must be about 900 quid each. Either that or they are charging nearly a tenner for a half time pint !!
Don't tell the count about that though, just in case he thinks he can get away with a similar pricing policy next season.
It is interesting to see contributors like Mythbuster, adding up the transfer spending over the last few years. I am slightly confused as to how you can do this, when a lot of the latest transfers (Alves, Hoyte etc) have been officially classed as "undisclosed" fees.
It seems that any of these figures could be wildly inaccurate, considering the fee for Alves (for example) has been reported anywhere between £10 & 14m. I suppose it all boils down to whether you trust the Gazette more than the News of the Screws !
What is costing us is players running down their contracts and leavin on a free.
Its not just we dont have those players to call on anymore its the fact we have to go out and try and buy replacements, many of which dont want to come to the Riverside to play.
Stop the rot !
That’s all very interesting. I don’t know where to start. I think I can feel a “Forever Dormo” length post coming on.
Some posts on here give the impression that Vic is desperately trying to defend the undefendable, when all he is doing is stating the facts as they really are and not as some people prefer to see them.
Those financial figures just confirm once again what a farce the Premiership has become. It is all about finance now and no longer about sport. It is so predictable that it is boring. In Germany Wolfsburg became champions. Who?, you may well ask. Exactly.
Last year they finished 6th. Stuttgart moved from 7th to 3rd. Schalke and Bremen dropped from 3rd and 2nd down to 8th and 10th. That is just not possible in the Premiership.
As regards Boro’s demise, Vic’s last 3 articles have been excellent in pinpointing what went wrong. Steve Gibson himself admitted that mistakes had been made. Mainly in failing to replace experience and in over estimating the development of the young players.
Our biggest mistake in my opinion goes further back than this season. We sold Yakubu, a player with a proven Premiership goal scoring record, and spent the money on Alves, a player who at the age of nearly 29 had never scored in any major league in Europe.
It’s the goals scored column that got us relegated. Some may say that we failed to replace Young and Schwarzer, or Cattermole, Rochemback and Boateng. But our defence compares well with the teams in the bottom half. We conceded less than most of them. We only conceded 4 more than last season and one less than in McClaren’s last season. And statistics show that we created as many chances this season as last.
How many of the “told you so”s would have predicted at the beginning of the season that Downing, Mido, Alves and Aliadiere would only score 10 goals between them this season? Downing got 10 on his own last year. Alves got 6 in his last 6 games. Mido scored 11 in his best season for Spurs and even Ali managed 5 last season.
Even the pessimists would have expected at least 20 goals from those four players together. Those extra 10 goals would have seen us comfortably mid table. That’s what Gibson means when he says we never saw relegation coming. In fact we did well to reach 32 points with those goals scored.
Southgate’s record in the previous two seasons is okay. We finished 12th and 13th and reached the last eight in the cup, although we were paying the 4th lowest wages in the Premiership. He deserves a chance next season in the Championship. Financial reasons played a major part this term.
**AV writes: One of the things I may do in the long quiet summer months is come up with a fair objective, workable mathematically formula to measuer every Boro season EVER to come up with a definitive ranking of exactly where this year stands.
If you give a numerical weighting to league finish (1-92), then factor in another value for progress in the cups it would give you a basic ranking (this would be one of Boro's 'better' seasons) but then would you need to come up with a way of factoring 12 away defeats on the bounce plus intangibles like morale? Any thoughts?
Most Boro players leave on a free, and not just because they run their contracts down. Whether they were good when they were signed or not, by the time Boro get through with them, they are obviously not worth a sell-on fee. Over the hill, or badly coached, it's hard to determine whether it is the fault of the players or the coaching staff who bought them, and trained them.
As for throwing toys out of prams, I'm just fed up of the spin from the club, telling us one thing, making us promises, and then not delivering.
We were supposed to be 'challenging for Europe' with 'the best squad we've ever had' in the season just gone. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
We cannot sell Huth he is our best CH. Man u are selling a boy Gibson, he is better than any of our strikers and cheap at £3m .Joe hart is going on loan from Man City.
Sell pogi to pay for them.
Here's those painstakingly compiled figures I was talking about on transfer spending and how Boro have slipped behind.
The first table (based on fees on Soccerbase) is net spend over five years up to last August's deadline.
Chelsea 135
Man City 126.7
Man Utd 91.35
Liverpool 80.2
Everton 66.05
Villa 65.25
Sunderland 63.4
Newcastle 45.4
Fulham 42.6
Spurs 36.85
Arsenal 29.4
Portsmouth 32.3
Wigan 27.2
West Ham 24.8
Boro 24.2
Bolton 23.5
Blackburn 14.9
West Brom 20.5*
Stoke 13.9*
Hull 4.5*
(Birmingham 23.4)
(Derby 13.6)
(Reading 8.2)
Next up is the net figure for transfer spending last summer. Note the massive profit from the bottom four after big summer sales.
1 Man City 78.2
2 Aston Villa 34.5
3 Sunderland 24.5
4 Man Utd 24
5 West Brom 20.5
6 Fulham 16
7 Stoke 13.9
8 Bolton 11.9
9 Liverpool 10
10 Everton 8.5
11 Hull 4.5
12 Arsenal 3.75
13 Newcastle 2.55
14 Portsmouth 2.3
15 Chelsea 1.2
16 Boro 0.5
17 Wigan -4.5
18 Blackburn -9.5
19 West Ham -15.3
20 Spurs -15.7
I also have a table over two years but it is formatted and when I cut and paste it in it gets chewed up into unreadable gobbledegook. I'll try and find the raw data again.
First thoughts on those transfer tables...
Everton, Villa and Fulham are big spenders, which puts Moyes, O'Neill and Hodgson into perspective.
Newcastle and Sunderland have bought very badly.
Surprised to see Spurs so far down both tables. I had them down as biggest spenders outside the top 4!
**AV writes: Spurs spent heavily but also sold Robbie Keane for £20m (and then later got him back cheaply) plus half of their reserves to Sunderland.
steve h at 2.38pm:
Good post, but not really at Forever Dormo length. That would have been my Introduction!
Hint for the future - put a nice bottle of single malt by the side of the keyboard, and remind yourself at regular intervals how good it tastes. It might lead to the odd typo by the time you get to page three though. As for this one, it will be short as I have to go out this evening.
The figures show we have spent less than most clubs. Of the five teams below us in AV's list (with us at £24.2M net spend over 5 years) we finished ahead of only one in this year's league table (WBA). At the end of the day the questions are whether we made the most of the players we had, and whether with a more experienced manager we would have been relegated. I suspect the answer to both is "No".
I am not suggesting we would want Harry Redknapp as our manager (nor that he would want to come here) but in light of what he did at Spurs, and before that at Portsmouth, it it is inconceivable we would have been relegated with him in charge. If we'd won at Hull (instead of losing), if we'd held on for a few more minutes at Anfield etc etc and so on throughout the season....
Really, to stay up we only had to do better in a couple of games, as everyone near the foot of the table seemed to fighting as hard as possible to keep us in the fray, until the last game!
The same with Big Sam in charge (maybe not attractive football, but it would have been functional, which is not a word you could use about our side for much of the season), or with Roy Hodgson - and you'll note I am not here picking on the big management names with the top clubs.
Even with our financial constraints this was one of the easier seasons to have stayed in the top flight. Apart from the usual suspects at the top end of the league table, there was a great deal of mediocrity on display in the Premier League.
We badly underperformed. We punched BELOW our weight. We could not compete with the Champions League heavyweights or even the Euro qualifiers, but a Teesside middleweight shouldn't get knocked out by (for example) a Stoke or Hull flyweight.
Is it just me or is anyone else starting to feel a little embarrassed by 'The Count's' poorly disguised invitations to buy Downing, Wheater and Johnson....
Downing, he's a quick healer, a very fit boy, someone should come in and take a gamble on him, now in fact, a quick bid would be most welcome.....anyone? Now? Please?
Wheater; top lad! Johnson; future of the club! They're not for sale, no no no, not at all, absolutely not, ...... unless someone wants to make us an offer! You know, silly money...something like that....
Wow! When are these clowns going to leave this club? Hopefully before it ends up a League 2 cheap joke......
If its true that Ross Turnbull is off to Chelsea as their reserve keeper then he is no loss to Boro.
Who would want a man whose ambition is limited to reserve team football?
Maybe he hopes to win the Carling Cup.
Stolen from a chant about Bobby Zamora to the tune of "Amore"
If your'e sitting in row Z..
And the ball hits your head..
That's Afonso!
Nigel
What would you rather be?
1. No2 at Chelsea where you play in the top four, a chance to become No 1, a chance to get medals, play with a top coach, a chance to play amongst top players.
2. Play No2 to Corporal Jones, not play in the championship, no chance of medals, play for Sammy the Seal, to know that favouritsm rules.
Answers on a postcard.
I'll answer for Nigel.
Turnbull would be out of his mind not to go to Chelski if he has the opportunity. After being stuffed around by GS after being man of the match and keeping us in games we should have lost early in the season, getting dropped for one mistake when we were already getting beat, then sat on the bench watching Calamity James' follow up act, why wasn't Jones dropped by the way after one of his mistakes ? He would be NUTS to stay here and sit on the bench again next year and rot away.
If he does go to Chelsea, it only takes one injury and he's in the first team playing in one of the best teams in the world, probably on great win bonuses, chances to play in the Champions League and the other humdrum English cups :-) Oh and since we let his contract run out when we knew we were letting Schwartzer go, he goes on a free with a substantial sign on fee - NICE.
Let's face it, given the opportunity what would any of us do? The only negative here is we're stuck with Jones.
Who would want a man whose ambition is limited to reserve team football?
Exactly, so get rid of Brad Jones asap
I watched the 6 a side last night it was nice to see Boro win and score a few goals. Maybe the manager should take on the first team
I have sat here and read blog after blog about how we managed to get ourselves relegated this year despite teams above us doing their best to keep us up.
It's nice to read of the financial constraints that have hampered our poor be-nighted team this season, but what all of you seem to missed is that we have finished the last three seasons with deficit goal tallies. Our demise has been staring us in the face for the last three seasons without anyone apparently noticing, much less addressing the issue.
Whether or not this can be laid at GS's door or not, we have been under performing for a long time and that is why we are now playing second rate clubs next season, and if we fail to recognise this fact now, and act strongly to redress the situation, then I for one seeing us becoming Leeds United mark 2 and disappearing into football oblivion.
This is not what I want for the team I have supported since 1970. I have been through all the years of yo-yo football and my pride demands that my club goes straight back to the Premier league, at WHATEVER cost, either financially or in terms of the personal egos of management and players.
Rant over, sorry, but I had to get it off my chest.
Time and again Southgate said words to the effect "I can not expect more from his team " What rubbish, and if he believes that he should not be anywhere near the club, let alone manage it.
The trouble is he ca't manage experienced players. Ask Woodgate or Yakubu. Southgate now wants dedicated young players willing to fight for promotion. What was wrong with Cattermole and Morrison?
Boro will go from bad to worse with this futile manager.He must surely be at the bottom of the list when it comes to capabilities and popularity.