Stockton: Just A Town Full Of Mackems?
CHAIRMAN in "town full of Mackems" Stockton own goal future misquote shocker!
Steve Gibson made a bold bid to be Boro's most misconstrued boardroom boot-in-mouth merchant and snatch the Palme D'oh from Keith Lamb with an incendiary quote about the suspect affiliations of those north of the river that livened up an otherwise predictable live Q&A on BBC Tees, which you can hear in full here. Although quickly as I think it only lasts seven days.
Hammering home his now familiar theme of "local team for local people" in response to questions about why Boro can't compete financially with the likes of Hull, the Royson Vasey Rovers chairman outlined the matchday demographics and flippantly said: "We know that the majority of people in Stockton support Sunderland."
That quote will go down in Boro's extensive faux pas folklore now and used as a weapon wielded against the club at every opportunity. And no doubt misquoted too. Just as Lamb's "eventually Teesside will get the team it can afford" has passed into our culture as "you lot will get the team you deserve" or "the club makes more money on a matchday from a casual supporter than it does from a season ticket holder who gets a discount" has become "you lot can get stuffed, we don't need or want you".
It has been a bad season for Boro's foot-in-mouth disease what with Lettergate, the players repeatedly saying they were targeting Europe from the bottom three and Southgate telling the fans that "lessons have been learned" after each carbon copy defeat and that his mediocre millionaires feel the sting of defeat more than the supporters do because they have a professional pride and have nothing else in their lives (except six hours a day to play golf or drive fast cars) whereas fans can forget about it once the whistle goes.
So knowing all that and knowing that recently relegated angry and passionate fans are likely to be even more sensitive to sleights than usual, it was a clumsy thing to say. And that is being generous.
Cue hysteria as legions of already simmering diehard Ragworth reds and Norton North Standers exploded into irate "I've never been so insulted" "it's his Ratner moment" rage at the outrageous slur on their loyalty. It's that fiery Mackem temper...
It is easy to deconstruct and disprove the statement if you want. Clearly Stockton is a Boro heartland and even a brief glance at the club's own season ticket data-base should show the chairman that.
Billingham does have a reputation as being an out-post of radical weezkeezism based on a 1960s drift south by employment seeking Durham miners displaced by pit closures and by the closure of some ICI plants on South Tyneside with the work and the staff being transferred to Teesside. There is a good feature in that somewhere.
The offspring of those Roker exiles are the brass-necked Black Cats you see wearing striped shirts in Asda. The other evidence for Billog-on-Wear seems is a thriving 300 strong (but relatively recently founded) Sunlun supporters club and the gaudily decorated, flag waving bungalow on Wolviston Road.
Besides, if you want to dismiss Stockton as Mackem turf on that flimsy historical quirk you may as well write off Middlesbrough as Leeds territory on the basis that in the 70s coaches used to travel from the town in fortnighly convoys as sock-tag wearing glory hunters headed off to Elland Road.
Further, even a cursory glance at population figures would show that Middlesbrough, Stockton, Redcar and the immediate hinterland add up to close on half-a-million. That is more than enough to support a Premier League side, even if there are disputed areas of no-mans land around the edges. There is no point even doing the tired old number-crunching. We have argued the toss with seat counting Geordies and Mackems often enough to all know the reality well enough.
Just look at a map.
Gibbo stressed that 90% of season ticket holders come within five miles of the Riverside stadium. Well, that distance safely covers all of Billingham and most of Stockton and Thornaby too - although ironically excludes Redcar, the homes of the players in Wynyard and Yarm plus the chairman's own pad at Bilsdale.
But he point is not that Gibbo had a pop at those who pronounce Briton's most popular dish as "kerry," crass and insensitive though that is. The point of the flippant remark is that he was reinforcing Boro's brand as "a small town in Europe."
To stress the (artificial) imagined demographic limitations on the club emphasises both the impressive nature of the achievements in the golden age and the strength and loyalty of the crowd: getting 29-30,000 to games from a town of 135,000 is a useful response to the tired media smear about the Riverside's "low" crowds. Boro are one of the smaller top flight clubs and the achievements while 'punching above our weight' have been impressive but we are hardly Hoffenheim.
On the downside, the constant repetition of this small minded mantra makes Boro appear a far more parochial outfit than we actually are, it mentally constrains our horizons and our ambitions to spread our fan-base and it also unneccessarily winds up a significant section of our most loyal supporters.
The reaction has been predictable: almost comical foot-stomping cartoon outrage from Stocktonians who have never missed a match for 30 years and little smirks from those safely inside the club imposed "no Mackem" zone of Greater St Hildas. Boro-based "real" fans cheekily suggested a Mackem Reds banner. How we laughed.
This is a crazy self-imposed division among an already fractious fan-base created by the man right at the top just when we need to be at our most united. You couldn't make it up. With tempers still high after relegation and widespread discontent over the way the club is being run any potential fault-line is potentially dangerous. To create one that didn't exist is barmy. Typical Boro.
Gibson was brave to go live so soon after the car crash but generally it was a fruitless exercise. We never really learned anything we didn't already know. Ali Brownlee was never really going to grill him - let's be honest, you didn't really expect Gibbo to be subjected to waterboarding or electric shock treatment did you?
Very few people listening will have changed their stance although a few already angry may have hardened theirs. If the mitigation didn't wash over the course of the season then it wasn't going to wash with emotions still running high over a relegation that must believe was self-inflicted and preventable while "StocktonGate" will have added to the armoury of those convinced the club is a PR basketcase and given a fresh focus and excuse for people to discharge their anger.
Plus the diversion has distracted from the few important things that were said.
Firstly that while Gibbo is backing Southgate to start next season he is on borrowed time, a promotion charge is expected and poor results will prompt a quick rethink; secondly that there will be concrete changes in the squad make-up with several experienced players - leaders in the Ince/Pearson/Townsend mould will be brought in to season the youth; and further, that coaching differences behind the scenes in the dug-out (think about the chaos and competition between Cooper and Agnew to do the prestigious and visible pointing and shouting role rather than the enigmatic note taking next to Gibbo one) will be resolved and the set-up improved or added to.
*****
THERE'S a very interesting deconstruction of some of the psychology and dynamics suggested by Gibbo's BBC 'Mackem' moment by Richard - one of our regulars - over on
the gazettelive Boro Banter site (which you shoudl add to your favourites by the way.)
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Boro on rhine... small town in europe.... punching above our weight..... we've heard it all before, haven't we? Bit of a pointless exercise wasn't it?
Plus he seemed to disown the rest of Teesside apart from Middlesbrough. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way, but that's the way it came over.
He didn't seem too fond of Mido either. Not very sensible talking like that if he wants to get a good price for him when he goes.
We're nbever going to win any pr awards are we? But at least some heartening things about next season - although it sounds this one was a total shambles behind the scenes.
I know that Steve Gibson has said in the past that one of Boro’s strengths is that when any important decisions need to be made it is just a matter of the Chairman, the Chief Executive and the Manager sitting down, having a chat and deciding what to do.
It seems that this also applies to team selection, tactics, and buying and selling of players. If this is so, then no wonder the team looks as if it was built by a committee!
Wasn’t it Brian Clough who said that the best number of people to select a football team was three…and two of them were permanently absent!
If Steve Gibson believes so much in Gareth Southgate’s ability to drive this team forward then he should let him get on with it and forget this collective responsibility rubbish. Let’s see what he can do without interference and then we’ll know if he’s big enough for the job.
I'd just like to point out another untruth about Stocktonians. I'm from the supposed mackem hotbed and have never heard anybody from the area say "curry" without the guttural "u". "Kerry" is reserved for the likes of Katona and Dixon.
Gibson overplayed the professional Yorkshireman persona on the radio last night.
Now really isn't the time to be acting all parochial and potentially alienating around half of our fanbase north of the River Tees. The Boro are very much a Teesside club and Gibson should be embracing that.
I expected better from our chairman. Too much of what he said was the same old tired spin churned out already by the likes of Gibbo, Lamb and Southgate over the last couple of years.
Then, to top it all off, he comes out with an ignorant and wholly incorrect quip about Stockton (which is for the record very much a proud Boro-supporting town).
I won't even mention his worrisome "Middlesbrough Am Rhein" and "little town in Yorkshire" remarks...
I think the Chairman believes his own spin nowadays, trouble is its now becoming tiresome and we are not falling for it anymore. He only agreed to the show to try and sell season tickets. Very disappointing.
I am actually dumbfounded that SG actually said this. I read the article in the gazette online while working and nearly screamed when I read that.
Has SG ever been to Billingham where I grew up? The vast majority of people support Boro including all my family and about 95% of my friends.
And walking down Stockton High Street it is apparent that Boro are massively supported. I have friends as far away as Kirklevington who support Boro . what could have possibly gotten into SG to say this?
I never thought I would say this but SG has finally lost the plot in the manner of a struggling dictator would at the fall of an empire. Keeping faith with Southgate when it is obvious that he is not up to scratch, alienating supporters with baffling quotes over a prolonged period. I am actually insulted with this latest episode.
Oh and a nice bit of casual xenophobia with the "Boro on th Rhine" comment. Yeah well, I supposed with all the Mackems on the other side of the river we couldnt have a successful (if i'm led to believe he turned down Hitzfeld) management team, instead we got gradually worse over three seasons and got relegated.
Thanks Gibbo, I think I have had enough of wasting time and money on your project.
This seems to be more of an exercise in proving their openness as a club. A strange contingent of us Boro' fans seem to believe that this relegation is all part of some conspiracy which is why everyone is being hush-hush at the club. Rumours Dan Brown's next book is "The Smoggie Code" remain unfounded...
Coaching? Boro dug-out? No, sorry, just cant make the link. Maybe the technical area is involved as well but I thought that was somewhere for Sammy the Seal to clap.
Gibbo's comment about Stockton was unfortunate but I must admit I was getting on for 18 before I caught the mysterious United 272 at the Coronation to meet someone in Stockton High Street.
In part it was because most people worked and lived either south or north of the river though some brave souls risked Billingham Bottoms to go to ICI.
But we shouldnt be surprised at foot in mouth disease even from Gibbo, it is par for the course though there have been great improvements with Neil Bausor involved.
It is all such a mess of our own making. Once again the public are waiting to seize on every utterance to mould them to support their point of view.
**AV writes: I think that is the key point. When minds are already made up you are on a hiding to nothing whatever you say. As I know only too well.
You get it when you say it had nothing to do with slagging off Stocktoners and everything to do with emphasising we are a local club, closing ranks, siege mentality-ism etc. Which is absolutely the right way to go, he's desperate for us all to pull together, and that's the way it should be. Yes, this season has been awful, but it's over now. Forget it, and move on, together.
If anyone really is getting upset about the Stockton comment, they seriously need to grow up. All that was said/announced yesterday (£40m debt reduction anyone?) and people want to focus on an off-the-cuff comment?
Also, I loved the way Ali made up a mate to ask him about the administration rumours as if he couldn't bring himself to just ask him, himself!
Great stuff from Gibbo, made me proud to be a Boro fan. Bring on next season.
Billingham always gets a bad name because of that awful bungalow. Trust me AV, Billingham IS a Boro town.
Gibbo - you are bang out of order for making that statement. I'm not renewing my season ticket and I'm in the 4 mile radius. Maybe the Stadium of Light will have my presence next season as there no way I'm going back to the Riverside.
I listened only for so long last night, as it seems that the calls were so well screened that we didn't get to ask or hear the really difficult questions that are burning up the message boards. SG is living in a cosy comfy world at the moment, and some of the calls were like a soothing cup of cocoa for him.
The Stockton quote was though, outrageous ,and he should quickly qualify that remark. It was indeed ill thought out. Though I don't live in Stockton, it certainly isn't a town full of Mackems.
However, it might be if their new investment goes ahead. Another Prem club with a suitable modern backing, and shortly a respected manager to boot. Well done Sunderland.
The main thing to come across from the Gibson interview is that he's still as enthusiastic as ever about the job, thank God. He's given us the best 15 years this club has ever had.
His comments about Stockton worry me. I doubt he'd have said it if there wasnt some truth in it. If its true, and I know that lots of people north of the river do support the mackems and geordies, then it needs to be addressed because we just cant afford not to have the WHOLE of Teesside behind its team.
I actually wrote to Gibson 12 years ago about this and received a non committal reply from Keith Lamb...I doubt that Gibson ever saw my letter. What im going to say is controversial so brace yourselves and try not to give me a knee jerk reaction in the groin ! Before I say it though I will say i was born and brought up in the Boro.
I propose that the time is ripe for a name change to TEESSIDE UNITED so that all the people in our conurbation feel that it is their club. The good people of Stockton, Billingham are all Teessiders so lets get them fully on board.
The Teesside brand is a strong one....and it will stop any excuses for some people north of the river in Durham supporting a Yorkshire club. We should continue playing at the Riverside and in our traditional colours - just change the name to reflect where our support comes from. After all the biggest club in the land Man Utd were once called Newton Heath!...didnt harm them!
Steve Gibson might as well try and sell the club. The fact is that he has lost touch with the fans, has alienated a lot of others with his ridiculous remarks about a local club for local people whilst dismissing a lot of Boro fans from Stockton as being Mackems.
On top of this he kept repeatedly harping on about being a small town in Europe and North Yorkshire and the being smallest town in the Premier League (we're not),and he was constantly referring to the most succesful ever period in Boro's history. This success only came in a competition that is even not as highly rated as finishing in the top 4 these days.
Boro have been a decent cup team for the last few years but despite all this success Gibson speaks of, we have only won the least ranked trophy out of the lot.
The most successful Boro team ever was the one that finished 3rd in the 1st Division. Quite frankly the league positions during Gibsons reign have been abysmal more often than not.
Thanks for your efforts Mr Gibson, but you and Keith Lamb are now in danger of outstaying your welcome.
Steve Gibson might as well try and sell the club. The fact is that he has lost touch with the fans, has alienated a lot of others with his ridiculous remarks about a local club for local people whilst dismissing a lot of Boro fans from Stockton as being Mackems.
On top of this he kept repeatedly harping on about being a small town in Europe and North Yorkshire and the being smallest town in the Premier League (were not),and he was constantly referring to the most succesful ever period in Boro's history.
This success only came in a competition that is even not as highly rated as finishing in the top 4 these days.
Boro have been a decent cup team for the last few years but despite all this success Gibson speaks of, we have only won the least ranked trophy out of the lot.
The most successful Boro team ever was the one that finished 3rd in the 1st Division.
Quite frankly the league positions during Gibsons reign have been abysmal more often than not.
Thanks for your efforts Mr Gibson, but you and the odious Keith Lamb are now in danger of outstaying your welcome.
You have to wonder at the common sense of anyone who would allow themselves to say such a stupid thing as the whole Stockton/Sunderland supporters thing. I really would like to know the rationale behind such a dumb statement!
stockton red said:
“As you will realise from my blog name I found Steve Gibson's reference to Stockton embarassing last night. I hope we get some kind of acknowledgement of this publically”.
I wouldn’t take it too seriously. It’s just another of the club’s bogus statistics. Not quite as far-fetched as Gareth’s claim that the only people calling for him to step down are not old enough to remember Boro’s last relegation twelve years ago (do I really look that young, Gareth?), but pretty improbable.
Steve Gibson said on the Brownlee phone-in that 90% of the Riverside crowd lives within 5 miles of the stadium. As AV points out, that includes sizeable chunk of Stockton, but Steve’s figures can’t be correct anyway.
The FA Premier League National Fan Survey 2006/7 says that the average distance from the ground for Middlesbrough fans is 36 miles (14th largest in the Premier League) , much smaller than Man Utd’s 77 miles (surprise, surprise), but rather larger than Wigan’s 22 miles.
The only way to reconcile Steve’s claim with would be that the other 10% live over 300 miles from the Riverside on average. That’s places like Brighton, Cardiff and Aberdeen.
I can only assume that Steve meant 50 miles. Still, losing a zero like that is a bit worrying for the man in charge of the club’s finances. What was the size of that debt again, Steve?
Born in Stockton, raised in Redcar, moved to Middlesbrough as a teenager, lived near Helmsley then York - at no time was I short of fellow Boro supporters round and about
Whilst in the Premier League our matches were broadcast in more than 200 countries worldwide. This gave us an opportunity to expand our supporter base and increase the value/appeal we have to sponsors. To do this doesn't mean that we have to forget or ignore the local core fans, it just requires us to have a different perception of ourselves and what is possible
While 'homegrown' players are always special, I don't have any reservations about imports whether a Festa, a Fuchs or a Juninho. Equally, I don't have a problem if the Coach and his assistants are English, German or Martian so long as they do the business
SG didn't explain how GS has convinced him that he's a competent coach and thus deserving of the chance to rebuild the wreckage. After three years in charge surely SG should be able to present a better argument than we should have 'blind faith' in his judgement
Yet again it seems that we're to go with a high-risk strategy - 'suck-it-and-see', and if necessary take action early season and then presumably have another clear out of staff and players during the 'difficult' January transfer window
In reality, nothing we say or do as fans is of any consequence. Whatever evidence we point to in terms of GS performance as a coach is irrelevant when SG prioritises GS personal qualities
So, we go in to the new season on a wing and a prayer, having finally recognised (at least in part) the value of experience...
I know it may sound negative but I am not going to listen to the words of Steve Gibson because of the problems I described earlier. I do not want to pick out bits and pieces of what he says only to misconstrue them in support or criticism.
The facts stand on their own in the fact we got relegated. We did so because we were not good enough so that is the end of that debate.
Where we go now is no longer our debate. We may have views and comments but only one person has a vote and that is Gibson. He may be a benign dictator but he is still a dictator. Doesnt mean he is a panto villain like Ashley or some of the other owners.
For those of you who "dont get" why people from Stockton are insulted by Steve Gibsons comment.
Its because Gibson's response was made to caller who questioned his repeated small town comments and who also dared to suggest that the Boro had a larger fan base to draw from than just the small town in Yorkshire such as people from Stockton.
Gibson promptly dismissed this callers claim on the grounds that "the majority of Stockton people support Sunderland.”.
Pfffft.
I've got over it now. He made a mistake although it would not go amiss if he acknowledged his mistake. I thought the interview was O.K. and it seems to me that those complaining about it simply cannot accept that he wont change the manager and because of that want to pick holes in everything he said.
The bottom line is that actions speak louder than words. People need to see the changes that are going to be made to know that the club means business. We need to see a change in the backroom and in the quality of player brought in.
Last season has damaged a lot of faith in the club from top to bottom. Steve Gibson has made people raise their eyebrows before with a couple of signings. Another of those moments would not go amiss now.
So, how many of you expected him to say that he had changed his mind and would sack Southgate?
I am willing to support him 100% and Gibson has earned our support after the great 11 years. A cup win (which some are now snubbing as irrelevant? Get real!). A Euro Final - how many could have predicted that?
The Stockton thing is being blown out of all proportion. Get a sense of perspective!
My biggest concern is the lack of motivation at the club. Can you learn to motivate by making mistakes? I think not!
Notwithstanding all the previous comments, a vast majority of which are valid. But..
...can we at least buy a decent keeper before the start of this season please.
"Mark said: I expected better from our chairman." You know what, I don't think I did.
"Neil, Marton said: I think the Chairman believes his own spin nowadays, trouble is its now becoming tiresome and we are not falling for it anymore." I stopped falling for it sometime ago.
"Captain K said: Thanks Gibbo, I think I have had enough of wasting time and money on your project." Damn right.
"Peter Collins said: Thanks for your efforts Mr Gibson, but you and Keith Lamb are now in danger of outstaying your welcome." Amen.
Dear Steve Gibson,
I like many other Boro supporters have bathed in the glory days that we have had under your tenure as chairman of M.F.C. I like many other life long Boro fans would love to see you knighted for your services to football and Boro in particular. We love and appreciate you for all you have given us Steve.
I like many other Boro fans were amazed when you appointed Gareth Southgate as manager. But like many I thought, o.k. not my choice but if Steve Gibson puts his faith in the man, so should I. How wrong we both were.
The man has made a complete balls up of the hole management thing. He is clueless. If he was given orders out of spite to wreck this club which I assume he was not. I DON'T THINK HE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE DONE MORE DAMAGE THAN HE HAS IN HIS THREE YEARS AS MANAGER.
I listened to you on the BBC Radio and it was like having a knife plunged into my heart. Defending Gareth is honorable, yes; unselfish, yes - but looking at the evidence it looks like just plain stubbornness on your part.
Gareth Southgate is to blame for 80% of what has gone wrong at M.F.C. Yet you are prepared to take the flak for him and at times the flak from him. Even when he has painted you black by overcooking the finance issue to the media, something that should have been kept quite. You still defend the man. I find you incredible.
I have so much respect for you. However I have a grievance that I have to get off my chest Steve. When you took over after the distructive Amer years you made a solemn promise to fans in your presence in those early days of new hope.
You promised us faithfully that never again would a golden generation of local kids with there hearts in the club,be sold off to the highest bidder. Not over your dead body you said. You told a delighted audience that no Mowbray, Palllister, Cooper, Armstrong, Proctor, Hodgson or even a Johnston would be sold off to balance the books. No you had a dream that a Boro team, mainly made up of Teesside talent would drive us to the top half of the Premier League year after year.
I like many other Boro fans bought into that dream Steve. What happened to that Promise Steve. What happened to that dream Steve. You gave up your promises and your dreams to support Gareth Southgate.
You said of the Amer years, NEVER AGAIN, NEVER AGAIN. Tell me now Steve and all the other Boro supporters who have trusted your every decision. Why have you allowed Gareth Southgate let valuable kids go? Not even for their true value. Parnaby, Brunt, Turnbull, Bates, Hutchinson, Morrison, Downing and unbelievably Cattermole all going or gone in Southgate's tenure.
Loyalty to Gareth? What about your loyalty to these kids, their dreams of playing for their home town club? What about the loyalty to the wonderful backroom staff who found and developed these kids? What about your loyalty to your supporters who idolize you Steve? Please listen to yourself in that interview Steve. Listen to your heart. Then listen to your head Steve. Gareth has to go.
Tony Black did a fine job of a more concise expression of my own sentiments, and no doubt, those of others.
But, I can boil the whole thing down even more, to one question: " Has anyone asked Gibson or Southgate about Southgate's request to be judged at the end of the season?"
I ask this, because Gibson and Southgate's response after the end of the season seems to be beaming to us from another parallel universe, a universe in which we finished 17th...
To anyone out there - how many managers have survived relegation from the Premiership? Note that Sbragia did not survive after survival!
PS :-)
I just read the Gazette article again about Gibson's statements. The relevant one is:
“I won’t make Gareth a scapegoat for relegation,” he said. “We all have to bear a collective responsibility.”
The immediate implication is that everyone should resign, i.e. Southgate, Lamb and Gibson (who could remain as a silent owner and appoint a new Chairman). Does Gibson think that the Speaker should remain as well? What does bearing responsibility mean then ?
A "scapegoat" is an innocent that is being blamed. Aside from that being contradicted by his next sentence, it also needs strongly to be SUBSTANTIATED.
While I personally do not live close enough to buy tickets, I cannot possibly imagine buying any further tickets without SPECIFIC explanation of why and how someone other than Southgate bears responsibility. Failing that, asking people to support Boro becomes an exercise in irrational emotionalism.
Season ticket sales are going to be affected by the relegation, Southgate's continued managership, and Gibson's comments.
People will need to see positive action in the close season, before their support for the club is renewed.
Also, let the club publish some information from the club's season ticket database as to the home towns of the ticket-holders. Then we'll all be able to see which parts of Teesside truly support the club.
Gibson's rantings about the little town of Middlesbrough and his dismissive comment on Stockton showed a complete lack of respect to the club's fans from north of the river (of whom there are plenty). Ignoring their existence as fans almost and deeming them to be somewhat irrelevant.
That's why Stocktonians are in uproar.
Firstly let me say that there are many many die hard Boro fans all over the world. Not just within 5 miles of the Riverside.
I had a season ticket until my family migrated 15 years ago so please do not discount us as part of the fan base from which this club survives. But I do acknowledge that Boro is a club for the town and the people of Middlesbrough should be proud of their club. I am.
I got up early and listened in at 3am over here and heard the interview and I think everyone is missing something far more important than Stocktongate....
Gibbo is backing GS and accepts things need to be changed (as if we all didn't know that!) but the only re-assurance we have is that he asked for "BLIND FAITH".
I am sure we all gave "Blind Faith" for the last 6 months and look where it got us.
For those in the catchment area he says "Please renew your Season Ticket"- that's a big deal and I would not commit until I saw evidence of something new. For me (or any of the 500 Boro supporters here in Oz) to watch Boro live I have to travel 40 hours and pay over $3000 - but I still schedule EVERY trip (work or private) to co-incide with at least 2 home games and away trips.
Last year I saw 10 games. I was at Cardiff (both League Cup final and FACup debacle) I was in Eindhoven and will continue to "invest" in Boro - we have no choice- it's in our blood - but really Mr Gibson is Blind Faith the best you can do?
I accept it is only four days since we went down but if you have nothing to say, then say nothing. IF you say you are going to do something, set times and dates and be effective, then come out on the deadline date and explain what you have done.
Last year 30 of the Boro's 38 PL games were on live on Foxtel (News Ltd), which I subscribe to and Premier league clubs receive money from. Your shambles (and subsequent relegation) has now made it almost impossible for me and thousands of others worldwide to watch the Boro (and we don't even live in Stockton!) and when we do watch you will receive none of our pennies / dollars or cents which we spend. From August this year if I want to see 90 mins of a Boro game I will now have to wait about 2 days for a DVD pirated in from Ebay, and you will see none of that profit.
SO now to the point of my post - Gibbo told us nothing new and did not even give us his plans....
AV, please ask Gibbo to return to the microphone in two months and give us all a detailed account of what has been done then ask him to lay out his plans for the season. Then ask him what are the consequences if it doesn't go to plan, and what is the sketch of plan B - after all "failing to plan is planning to fail!"
Steve Gibson, Gareth Southgate et al.. I have a 12 month plan for my business for all to see - and I think as a paying investor in yours I deserve to see it - Bring on the next Riverside Revolution Steve, please.
Otherwise thousands like me will no longer buy from the club shop or watch live in the middle of the night. We will no longer buy tickets to games when we are in the UK, we will no longer adjust our travel plans to include the Riverside.
Our hurt will mean we will not share our passion with our kids and instead they will end up with the Manchelarsepool mob that spread all over the world. And we the true supporters both overseas and those on Teesside, will be reduced to just looking for the Boro result the next morning.
We love the Boro but you are making it very hard for us to invest the future in you. Open your eyes and ears, people are already saying no more (Captain K above and many others). Please give us something tangible to believe in over the next 2 months as tangible evidence of change is exactly what we need.
C'mon Boro
PG
To be perfectly honest I thought that 90% of the callers to gibbo must have been on the staff at the Riverside, choreographed or what?
If Southgate is staying I do not think we will go straight back to the Prem. Crowds will dwindle,and mid table mediocrity will creep in. Plenty of us last season predicted this demise, we dont take any solace from that, but it is blindingly obvious that the present manager and coaching staff are not up to the job.
Sure, Gareth is a nice guy, maybe thats the reason. He is too nice. We had this scenario once before with Robbo but fortunately El Tel came to the rescue. Robbo was here 7 years, lets hope Gareth's tenure does not last that long.
I will not be renewing my season ticket for the first time in 46 years however I will still go to games but I will not pay up front for an unknown product. Let's face it we dont even know who will be staying yet.
It would have been a great gesture by the club if they waited till the season was over before deciding prices for season tickets. They could have then rewarded the fans by a reasonable reduction for Championship football. Another calamitous decision by the heirarchy,
Gibbo said on the interview the other night that 10,000 season tickets have been sold. That could be your lot Steve! I know plenty who are not renewing. Let's face it you dont really need a season ticket anymore. Its not likely that we will be going to anymore big games is it, not with Gareth in charge.
**AV writes: Season ticket might get you priority for Wembley tickets in the play-offs.
Re Stockton Red:
"The FA Premier League National Fan Survey 2006/7 says that the average distance from the ground for Middlesbrough fans is 36 miles (14th largest in the Premier League) , much smaller than Man Utd’s 77 miles (surprise, surprise), but rather larger than Wigan’s 22 miles."
Steve Gibson's comments are based on season ticket sales. The majority of people who buy season tickets may well be from that five mile radius. We may just not have a huge number of fans from outside that radius going to the game but who considered themselves Boro' fans.
The other thing is we're not really likely to have a number of Stockton-ites coming on this board saying that they're Mackems either.
Maybe as I live in Stockton I should switch my support to Sunderland then.
From everything I have seen this last few years Sunderland would appear to appreciate my support more than Middlesbrough would! I really am losing the will to bother with this pathetic little club that cares so little for its life blood, its supporters!
Forget all the flannel. There is only one thing that matters. The team MUST start scoring goals, winning games and be bang up in contention at the top of the Championship. There MUST be a product on offer that makes people want to be at the games.Ultimately this is the only remedy for disillusion.
I have now listened through the Gibbo interview. To say I was underwhelmed - even though my expectations were pretty low is an understatement.
I could wax lyrical - and not very complimentary - about almost everything he said about the footballing side of the Prem trashing season just gone, despite the outcome being absolutely avoidable.
I could equally rant about what wasn't said or was avoided on the footballing side.
I have no comment on anything financial because he simply refused to answer the questions about money or how MFC is managed - except for the travalogue description of the hotel and golf course at Crockliffe.
The Stockton thing was just clumsy.
The only crucial thing came at the end when he said that he was asking for blind faith in him. And he said that he was asking for that in the knowledge of how tough an ask that was given what Boro fans have just had to endure and that he's committed himself to Gate continuing, despite knowing now if he didn't before, that he is in a tiny minority.
The truth is, if you're a Boro fan, there's not really an alternative for two reasons:-
As Ian Gill points out above, in Gibbo-land it's one man, one vote and he's that one man. Nothing we say or do is going to change that - nor the key decisions, most of which, it seems from the interview, have already been taken.
Secondly, as was equally evident from the interview, Gibbo holds a special place in Boro hearts - even if those hearts are heavy and the heads are rejecting his analysis and judgements. What he's done since 1986 means that he deserves the right to ask for that 'blind faith'.
All we can do - because, Ian was right in his earlier posting, I will be at Reading and Watford and Palace and Peterborough and as often as I can at The Riverside to support Boro - is hope to hell that our blind faith isn't either as misplaced as it's been this season just gone and that he isn't just cynically manipulating that trust.
If he doesn't come through (and I know there's no guarantee of promotion) or is seen to have been disengenous then I don't think even his Middlesbrough (within five miles of The Riverside) cred will survive it.
So, to take him at his word about the 'best squad in The Championship' and to move the debate on - because I'm fed up feeling as bad as I do - how about Gibbo and The Count mounting a concerted raid on 'The Damned United' now that they've failed in the play-offs again.
Beckford has refused a new contract and been placed on the transfer list, we've been interested in Becchio before. Why not go after them as a pair? And they've got a couple of handy midfielders too - including one who can play wide right!
AV, I thought the Leeds sock tags were class. Get the Boro wearing them next season!
'I propose that the time is ripe for a name change to TEESSIDE UNITED so that all the people in our conurbation feel that it is their club. The good people of Stockton, Billingham are all Teessiders so lets get them fully on board.'
This would've worked better if the ground had relocated to somewhere in the vicinty of the A19 and not a remote corner of east Middlesbrough.
Well it's still a SNAFU at the Riverside. Gibbo is gaga if he thinks GS is the right man. It is obvious the players do not want to play the Southgate way - 12 away defeats on the bounce, 2 wins in 25 or what ever.
The way it has panned out, a few niggly, scruffy 0-0 results mixed in with all that ridiculous tinkering with personnel and formations would have kept us up which is exactly what an experienced manager would of done had he been given charge say in January or even the international break.
Has Gibson been in a coma for the last 5 months? On past results we will be mid table at best. The midfield assembled last time we went down was Merson, Gascoigne, Mustoe, Stamp, Townsend, Madison. I can not see Southgate in a million years attracting that calibre. GS out by Christmas please Santa !
Please respect that Gibson was there for the fans on the radio. Don't take one sentence of the the whole. The idea was that Boro is a reasonably small and therefore a lowly PL club.
I know people who cannot get tickets to watch their favourite team (big teams). But when I have been to watch Boro - I have to travel over 1000 miles - I have been able to visit Rockcliffe Park without a prior appoitment. Even on the day before a match!
Seconldy, I watched the Man U - Barca match on TV last night. The Man U played like Boro - they seemed to lack trying and will to win. Perhaps even Sir Alex have the same problems as GS with his team if the opposition is better. Like the Boro team was too young and in-experienced last season. By the way Mr Gibson agreed on this and promised more expriece in new signings for next season!
Up the Boro!
Well Mr Gibson, as a Stockton dweller who has had a season ticket for 40 years , (indeed we have had 4 over the last 20 years) I herby withdraw all support for your putrid administration.
Words fail me how after three such miserable seasons you have the arrogance to speak like you have. Perhaps you would be better employed sacking the mackems on your coaching staff .
One thing is for sure after 55 years of supporting Middlesbrough I will not set foot in the Riverside again whilst Southgate and his Mackem coaches are there.
How deluded can some people be?
Suggesting that the calls to Gibson were choreographed, the first few did nothing but slag off Southgate. I thought there were some very uncomfortable moments for Gibson, which he handled brilliantly.
Some of the ungratefulness shown here for what he has done for this club is astonishing. Outstayed his welcome? Get a grip of yourselves.
I am ashamed to be a Boro fan sometimes.
Just to add to my earlier suggestions on Summer targets - and to the alleged interest in Jordi Gomez - what about Michael Brown from Wigan.
Hartlepool lad and has a bit of a dig on him - in both senses.
And if Boro are up for a cheeky punt that would wake a few ideas up, how about checking out with SrAlex and the lad himself how Paul Scholes sees his future, now that his first team chances at ManUre are getting more limited?
I think this whole incident has been taken out of context and blown up out proportion.
What Steve was actually saying was that over the years the club can tell from season tickets sales (postcodes) that only a small percentage of these actually come from Stockton. That is why he refers to the bulk of support for the team coming from Middlesbrough itself. Therefore with regards to Stockton its population don't necessarily support the team as much as those from Middlesbrough.
Therefore we have distinguish the context in which Mr Gibson was talking about fans i.e those who go to the matches. Although we all know that alot of people support Middlesbrough from Stockton but don't actually attend matches.
I do agree that due to our plight at the moment we are sensitive but what Mr Gibson said was correct to a certain point of view.
He really didnt tell us anything we already knew.
I seemed to miss the 'Stockton' comments. I did have a bad stream on the internet so perhaps that is why. I was heartened by the comments about reducing the club's debt significantly and the opening of the hotel and golf complex and that we are on the list of possible Olympic venues; another reason why we should really aim to get back in to the Premier League when the Olympics are in town.
Also it was quite clear that GS has a limited amount of time to steer the ship in the right direction. And that there will be several internal changes before the season starts; lets hope these changes come sooner rather than later. But if he does go who will get the job? Who will want it? Lets hope that (as much as we love him) he doesn appoint Colin Cooper; another one to learn his trade at the expense of Boro.
Is itjust me or am I the only one looking forward to next season? Im looking forward to (hopefully) winning some games, getting some momentum and get that winning habit back again AND seeing more of the kids.
Just another suggestion on moving forward.
Let's ditch Pigbag in favour of another theme tune for another era. I got somewhat fed up of opposing supporters using the tune - home and away - as something to beat us with as their team was beating Boro on the pitch.
Let me kick off the suggestions for a succesor, make a link to the other fight that the town has on its hands and show my vintage by putting forward Chris Rea's 'Steel River'.
Chris could be asked for a special, new arrangement just for this purpose and he could do a CD single with this plus a version with him singing an updated set of lyrics for the situation at the steelworks and some sort of fighting fund for that purpose could benefit from sales.
Any more suggestions?
Isn't this a good opportuntity for all Stockton Reds to go out and buy a Sunderland shirt (they'll be cheap now) and turn up at the Riverside in august wearing them to show 'Mr Middlesbrough' the level of support from this side of the river.
Alternatively we could take his advice and buy a sunderland season ticket and see preimership football.
We all need to uplift our spirits. Everybody please go on you tube and type in Newcastle United relegation downfall parody. It is without doubt one of the funniest things I've seen in years.Tell me what you think AV
**AV writes: It is indeed very funny.
John Powls said:
Any more suggestions?
Send in the Clowns
This Town Ain't Big Enough For the Both of Us
Idiot Wind
How Can You Sleep?
Pretty Vacant
But, seriously, agreed Pigbag is redundant, it belongs in the past with the era of foam hands, piped chants, music to remind us to celebrate goals, Mark Page...
Always thought something should have been made of Down by the Riverside, remember Man U fans singing it in 96?
Mr Southgate must have some secret over Mr Gibson to still be in the job. Boro are a small minded club and consistently fail to recognise their substantial target audience. Mr Gibson get your facts right.
It's clear that Steve and Gareth harbor some feelings that the fans (the young ones and those treacherous hordes from Stockton) are as culpable as they are regarding the footballing disaster we have just witnessed.
Deep down they think we don't deserve any better, that we should be grateful to have them in charge. Gareth in particular seems impervious to the 'rage' that some people feel about his 'stewardship'.
This season at the Boro has made Heathrow's Terminal 5 look like a slick and swanky affair - whereas they think it's not that bad when you compare it to 1986 .....
It's as clear as day that Stevie and Gaz have learned 'niechmans' from the last 2 years.
And the Boro fans DO deserve better, even if it's just reward for being so nice and patient about things. At ANY other club there would have been demonstrations, 'riots', campaigns ....... . stop all this whingeing about fans it's unfair and really 'narcs' me, and I suspect, many others.
I agree with John Powls, get rid of pigbag its a disgrace and it does nothing to stir the hearts of the fans or players. I wouldnt agree with his recommendation though for the song.
I'd like Justice - Phantom Part Two; or something classical..... But I dont care really. I'm getting a Sunderland season ticket....
I meant to suggest the same about Pigbag in my last email. Totally agree that it is about three years out of date and it does make me embarrassed. It is also an easy target for other fans as stated earlier.
I have no suggestions for a replacement, just something new as another sign of the start of a new era.
I have calmed down a bit from my stance of yesterday, and thanks to AV's subtle editing I come over far more level headed than my initial rant.
Anyway it just proves to me that Boro as a club suffer the same sort of deficiencies that allowed Germany to lose the last war, ie they think they have someone in charge who is infallible. I know I speak only as a fan, subject to the carefully manicured snippets of the high life that the club let us mere fans know about
I have often criticised Mr Lamb and wondered who would employ such an obvious square peg, then after all this time I find out Mr Gibson isnt this overly loyal benefactor. No, it would appear that from his PR blunder he is the same sort of character that has populated many aspects of Middlesbroughs history, from flawed politicians to ego maniac public servants and niche entertainers.
To perpetrate the same division that wrecked the whole Teesside/Cleveland personality just makes me proud NOT to come from Middlesbrough. No, let the rest of the Tees Valley rejoice that we will no longer be encumbered with the guilty by association black marks from being a smoggie.
Mr Gibson can keep his South of the River shoulder chips; after all, you're just Yorkshire dockers really, bullying your way forward just because you have a bigger mouth (sorry I meant estuary). Yes we all remember the arrogant days of Middlesbrough getting all the cash then that promise being sqaundered by ill educated, arrogant chancers who ended up in power almost by default.
Stockton Mackems! if you go South of the river I swear its like a little toon, the arrogance, the litany of disasters that anyone with half a brain can criticise!
Mr Gibson, stop playing the big cheese, clearing debts is very admirable and heroic but its time you started taking a back seat, employed the very best and let them get on with running the organisation!
**AV writes: I don't think we should go down this devisive route. T-T-Tessiders!
It is a shame that SG didn't elaborate on the Middlesbrough Am Rhine theme a little more and tell us actually who the Herr in the frame was. So what if he did want to bring in his own back room staff, can't be any worse than the current set up.
If this mysterious German had brought in players with the pedigree of ex Boro Germans such as Uwe Fuchs or dare I say Christian Zeige; Gibbo wouldn't have been moaning. As usual hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I posted a comment on here after the Cardiff debarcle and after the Boxing Day defeat by Everton saying that we had relegation written all us this season. I take no pleasure from this, but myself and two sons could see this over a year ago and we are just your average supporters.
What sticks in my throat is that with our dreadful away form in the previous two seasons, that we were worst this season! 12 straight away defeats. 12!!!! What is worrying is we never looked like winning any of those games. Had we taken an average of 1/2 point from those games we be still a Premier League side.
I have supported SG every year with my money and backing, season tickets(3) replica shirts (6 home & away) Red square (19) plus many many more items from the club shop, until now.
We will pick and choose our matches now (about 6) and will spend our very hard earned cash on family holidays, driving lessons for one of my sons and my 18 month old grandson. I'm not walking away but cutting my cloth accordingly, like the club have and quite honestly I don't like what i see.
Finally the bitter pill is easier to swallow knowing that the comedy and soap opera club up the A1 went down with us. Big Club my backside!
I checked out the Toon parody and it was excellant, the consolation we can take is that most fans were sorry for us unlike our colleagues up the A1.
I have sympathy for all fans of relegated clubs and it does extend to Geordies I know. As group I have less sympathy. But here is the rub, for all the humour aimed at the shambles up the road, for all the plaudits for our chairman, for all the recognition of an allegedly well run club (?), we still got relegated and were poor.
That is the bottom line, end of story.
I was just about to suggest getting rid of Pigbag for the very same reason that John Powls mentioned regarding opposition fans.
I am however still a fan of the Power Game and always felt that this was the tune to come out to (just as Everton, Chelsea and others have stuck to traditional tracks). You can always play your other stuff in the build up, just keep the 'walk out' tune sacred (What was that post-match tune that always got played during the Bernard Gent era? It always seemed to be on in the background of radio reports that I can remember as a kid, usually after a defeat if I remember right.).
I also agree with Brentford Boro that it's time to say bye-bye now to Mr Page and the dreaded 'goal music' (not that we heard much of it last season, which is a kind of blessing I suppose).
Finally, just a quick offer to those 'boro fans' that feel so insulted that they would consider supporting Sunderland next season. Let me know where you want picking up and I will drive you there myself.
How anybody (other than very young children) could consider switching teams is beyond me. If you're Boro you're Boro, if you're Sunderland you're Sunderland, etc.
I could imagine a case where you maybe get so cheesed off that you stop going to watch a club and maybe start watching your nearest non-league/lower league club, but to switch to a rival because they are a premier league club just depresses me. Why don't you go the whole hog and start "supporting" one of the big four? I had a week as a Liverpool fan back in the 70s (I think I was about 7 (yes, SEVEN) at the time), but it just didn't feel right!
If Reading had gone up in the play-offs should I have started supporting them just because we've had a rubbish few years and I live way outside Gibbo's 5 mile radius? Grow up and grow a set!
The problem with football clubs is that they have a captive audience - we may be hostages to the fortunes of MFC but no matter how we are mistreated many fans still pronounce their love for Steve Gibson - I think it's a psychological condition known as the Stockton Syndrome...
**AV writes: Very good. Although at times it feels more like the Stanford Experiment.
So now that Gibson has said something silly does that mean Tony Black will find something new to quote and get flustered about every time he writes?
**AV writes: I think we will have to judge him on his next post.
Re. A new tune. How about something by Maximo Park? The lead singer is a Boro supporter from Billingham by all accounts. This could go some way to mashing the political hot potato that is stocktonmackemsgate once and for all...
According to the 2001 census:
Boro 134847
R&C 139141
Stockton 178405
TOTAL 452393
Hull 243595
East Yorks 314076
TOTAL 557671
Chris from Beverley
The un-named German manager was Otmar Hitzfeld. An outstanding track record longer than your arm and mine put together.
I try not to remember this too often as the reminder that we could have had him in post straight after Eindhoven - and probably with Gate as his apprentice, if that's what was wanted - makes me weep with frustration every time I do.
Pointless xenophobia R Us.
Anthony do you know what the craic is with Franks? We saw him make his debut a few days ago and he is considered a future star, yet his contract runs up in a matter of days. Any idea if we will sign the lad on or what?
Seems a bit odd to give him his debut then let him go, would have made more sense to give Porritt a run out.
**AV writes: I will ask.
John Powls,
No wonder SG did not mention his name live on Radio. He would have been inundated with complaints !
Don't know how that one evaded my radar, but to not bring in a guy with that kind of experience is lunacy. Obviously, the Euro's were in short supply !
The people I really feel sorry for are the people at the club who will lose their jobs over this, the hard working people who, despite sometimes having management above them who run the show like a corner shop, put up with our moaning about the queues, the socks not being in "still", the many ticket fiasco's, the food being...well...compromised!
They become the very public face of a fundamentally flawed ethos, you can bluster as much as you like but then if you display the truth so openly, its no wonder people feel able to criticise so easily, remember the travelling journo's and fans see that side of the club as well.
Get the basics right, theres never been a better time!
So more season tickets were sold to people from Boro than people from Stockton. What did you expect. Boro is bigger than Stockton.
Also, has Gibbo actually tried to get from Stockton to the Riverside and back on a matchday? The only route is the A66, and it's chokka in both directions, before and after the match.
High time another bridge was built over the Tees, to allow people from north of the river easier access to the ground.
It cant get any better (worse) can it? The frightening thing is that SG has now admitted to 'collective' responsibilty for relegation and it would seem 'collective' team selection. In effect we are unable to blame GS for the debacle that is now Championship football and wasted millions on a potporri of directionless headless chickens, but we have to include SG and KL as equally culpable.
'The club needs to be run as a business', famous last words. Can I suggest that the three men in the boat leg it and go and manage some other 'business.'
Let there be no sacred cows for the good of the club, our club, the one we've supported for decades regardless of which side of the Tees you were born on. You can shovel millions at the problem, you can voice never ending love and loyalty but if you cant make the right decisions your as useless as an Alves in front of goal on a premiership Saturday afternoon. Do the right thing and let someone else have a shot. Your time is up!!!
Steve Gibson's comments about Stockton show out of touch he is, and of course rose tinted Brownlee let the comment go without a word. Just because Gibbo saved the club 20 years ago and is hero worshiped does not mean he is always right.
Radio tees and the media seem afraid to have a go at Gibbo.The club in general seem to be blind to there failings and always want to blame someone else. Wake up amd smell the coffee Boro....... and don't call me a Mackem!
It would be wise of Steve Gibson to apologies for his comment re Stockton and the sooner the better.
As for 'judging' Gareth Southgate, well the fact is like it or not the only 'judge' that counts is the Chairman and clearly his judgement is that Southgate stays. As for the rest of us we have little choice but to get behind Boro for what hopefully will be a promotion pus.
I'll leave my opinion of Gareth Southgate for another time.
**AV writes: Generally, Boro don't do apologies.
"The un-named German manager was Otmar Hitzfeld. An outstanding track record longer than your arm and mine put together."
You may have read that on your message board but the actual German manager approached was Christoph Baum.
**AV writes: I recently got told Felix Megath straight from the horse's mouth.
Mike said:
“Steve Gibson's comments are based on season ticket sales. The majority of people who buy season tickets may well be from that five mile radius. We may just not have a huge number of fans from outside that radius going to the game but who considered themselves Boro' fans”.
I’ve yet to be convinced that Steve’s comments were based on anything tangible. If he has the data to support his claims, I assume he’ll produce it. If he hasn’t, he should admit the mistakes. There’s no need to try to read his mind.
Even setting the ridiculous Stockton gaffe aside, was he saying that the club aren’t really interested in supporters without season tickets? If so, that’s directly opposite to what Keith Lamb said two years ago. He said they weren’t too interested in season ticket holders because they make more money from casual fans.
In fact, Lamb said even more. The club weren’t then too concerned about people attending matches at all, because they were making far more money from TV income. Presumably they’ve now had to abandon that “business model”.
But never mind. They’ve discovered whole new groups of fans to annoy, people from Stockton, outcasts living beyond the 5 mile pale, anyone born north of the river Tees, anyone who doesn’t think Gareth Southgate should be the next Pope, the list is endless.
As a season ticket holder, not born in Yorkshire, living more than 50 miles from the Riverside, I’m completely outside the demographic. But I’ve never lived in Stockton, so there may still be hope for me.
Absolutely disgusted at the comments by Steve Gibson. I would expect Keith Lamb to utter this kind of rubbish but not Gibson. This just shows me how massively out of touch the club actually are.
If he had bothered to take a look at the addresses he sends the season tickets (comic books) to he will see probably the majority of support in the stadium is from the larger town of Stockton.
I have been insulted by the club for 27 years now and this could be the last straw. Move the ground and all the inept staff to Park End and see what that gets you. I feel like starting up an example of FC United when the Glazers took over MUFC. Stockton on Tees, not Little Middlesbrough FC. What a lack of respect and knowledge and a kick in the teeth etc
As usual, I have been away from the action, but can return to try and peer through the smog, sorry, communication from the club to the fans.
Is there any chance of any clarification on one or two points, bearing in mind we all know and appreciate the efforts of the chairman over the years, and it is, to a large extent, his money that he is talking about. and he can use or squander it as he sees fit?
A month or two ago, I believe, the Gazette praised the chairman because he had, in effect, put £95 million into the club, which was indebted to him. He was praised for that. It is now stated that the club's debt is at or about £30 million, and the chairman is praised for that.
That means that his debt has been repaid by the club to the extent of £65m in about a year or eighteen months, or whatever, and some reports have attributed Southgate as saying, or alluding on a number of occasions, that the club was doing (shedding experienced players, stripping the playing resources and so on) what it had to do, i.e. because of financial demands.
The chairman now appears to be saying that the actions taken were to put the club on a sound footing for the future, but it appears that the club was not leading (proactive) but following (reactive) the demands of others.
Why did so much have to be repaid (to the chairman or the holding company) so quickly? If, say, £50m (not to be sniffed at) had been repaid, leaving £15m for keeping or signing some key players that were obviously required last summer and in January, then the Boro may well have stayed up, they weren't far off.
If so, their TV etc income next season might have been £45m and not the £12m or so, they will get. This means they would have been a net £18m ( 45-12-15) better off !!
Conclusions could include that the money advanced and repaid was 'sub prime', or that the money was used elsewhere to the detriment of the football club, or that the money was required by the parent company (although I understand profits there might have been rising, so why the need for such alarming speed in repaying?)
It's none of our business, but so many factors claimed recently just do not add up. They are still saying players will have to go for good money before necessary signings are made, and so on. It does neither the chairman nor the suffering Southgate any good never mind supporters from Pallister Park, Park End, Stockton, London (many BBC people seem to be Boro fans, even Hanson, recently)
Do the chairman and Southgate have personal FA ambitions , because they have allowed officialdom to walk all over them in recent years. That lack of backbone, again, and some officials and decisions simply did not deserve respect.
Can somebody come up with some clarification please ?
**AV writes: I have asked tame accountants who have explained the way Boro sit within a Russian doll paper structure at some length but I am none the wiser. Suffice to say they seem to think it is straight forward and routine internal corporate financial procedures.
A significant chunk of the "debt" was player amortisation - depreciation of asset value - and slices of outstanding transfer fees which have now worked their way through the accounts. Part is due to changing the period the accounts have been done over. Part is due to loans to banks being repaid from elsewhere in the Bulkhaul empire to reduce interest payments. Part of it is the huge cuts in wage bills over the past two years starting to show on the bottom line. Part of it is cash being moved around the system to maximise tax efficiency.... I am bamboozled by it but I think of it as my shuffling my own debt around zero % credit cards.
I personally couldn't agree more with Gibbo, as far as i'm concerned the reason we can't fill the ground regularly is because the "majority" of people from over the river follow Sunderland or the Geordies & once you go over the Eston hills ie Guisborough etc a vast number are Geordie or Leeds fans. I can't see the big issue people are just getting upset because the truth hurts!! (FACT)
**AV writes: Naughty.
I am disgusted at Steve Gibson's comments about Stockton and would like to demand a public apology and to see the facts in print because only a club like Boro could come out with such an arrogant inaccurate statement about their own support.
Is he trying to self destruct the club because i believe if it wasn't for the support of the bigger town ie Stockton the average gate would be about 11000. I would expect this kind of remark from Keith Lamb but not Gibbo. Is he that out of touch with his paying public? Another PR disaster and yet another reason not to renew.
PS... try getting a Sunderland tattoo in a Stockton tattoo shop see how far you get.
Yours a very angry Stockton red
altogether now sack the board
Where on earth did Steve Gibson get his facts from, stating that most Stockton people are Sunderland supporters? I am from Stockton but moved to the Boro 35 years ago and can only remember very few people being Sunderland supporters - and they lived in Billingham. These lads were from Peterlee area and married Billingham girls in the 60's era.
Believe me Stockton folk are very big Boro supporters and they like myself will be deeply hurt by what Steve has said. Me and my mates in the 60's used to get buses from Fairfield to the Boro and queue for hours in freezing snow from the Holgate End down Ayresome St to Roman Rd to get tickets for all the cup matches and used to have good chats with loads of people from Stockton.
I've been a big admirer of Steve Gibson since he took over the Boro, but i beieve he's put a huge foot in his mouth on this occasion.
The Stanford Experiment? Was that the rather unethical game of guards and prisoners in the early seventies that got a bit out of hand?
Or was it the more recent one where the wives and girlfriends of the English cricket team were held prisoner by a Texan billionaire on a Caribbean island whilst the players struggled to smile whilst failing to win a large sum of money?
Anyway, I only hope in the MFC version that the Boro defence are not picked as guards otherwise all the prisoners will probably escape unchallenged.
I agree we need a new tune, something uplifting. Don't worry, all those that know me, I'm not about to suggest a Dylan tune. But how about something inspirational like . .. "better days" by Bruuuuuuce. Despite everything I too am looking forward to next campaign. We can't be any worse than this season ... surely.....
Thanks AV. So the point is SG hasn't put £95 million in has he? And the Boro were regarded as being skint? There's always an interesting difference on Cash Flow versus Profits, i.e. companies losing money often have cash, companies expanding profitably are often short of cash.
So SG claims credit whether the club has massive debt or when it has much less debt and questionable prospects. It is his business, but to claim that there was a coherent strategy that went awry is bull shine.
I will always hope for the best for the Boro, but a little more stone cold sober, grown up, outlook would be much better for everyone concerned, I'm certain, not least managers who labour under false expectations (and get away with too much)
Special thanks to AV and the EG; I thought there was a real prospect that some of the comments would not be published, and of course, they obliged, if understandably. I understand.
**AV writes: Some things are best saved for pub talk.
AV, are you sure you didn't mishear the horse and we were actually going for Felix The Cat to get us out of a fix with his bag of tricks?
Kev Bouttell said:
"I agree we need a new tune"
How about "The Road to Hell" by Chris Rea?
The 5 Mile "Stepford Fans."
Suddenly I'm glad I live in Redcar just outside of the area of influence and control otherwise I may end up with foam hands and rose tinted specs. At this rate the Boro could feature in a Dr Who Xmas special.
Regarding the Pig-bag embarrasment, I was agreeing about getting rid of it and then thought what does it matter? I mean its not as if we have to listen to it that often which just goes to prove Gareth had our interests at heart after all. Oh no I think I am starting to develop Boro Philitis!
Cue Keith Lamb and "Exterminate, Exterminate."
SG and GS and the entire MFC squad are traitors to this town and should be shot at dawn.
SG put a guy in charge who had no managerial experience at all and it was obvious after a while that he was gonna drag us down. The so-called ''professional footballers'' of ours should be sued under the trade dscriptions act. GS couldn't motivate a bunch of morris dancers never mind a football team.
Why didn't GS do the right thing and resign after we were relegated? Because no one else will employ him after this. SG has no interest in this club anymore. If he had he would sack GS and put someone more clever than him in charge, Worzel Gummidge for instance.
If everyone refused to go to the Riverside then SG would have to act and get rid. That's what the vast majority of us all want.
To say Stockton people support Sunderland proves how totally out of touch SG has become. I say we'll end up in the first division at the end of next season if GS remains in charge.
**AV writes: Quality rantage. "SG and GS and the entire MFC squad are traitors to this town and should be shot at dawn." That's certainly raised the bar in terms of demands for retribution.
I tuned in to the radio webcast. As I understand it collectively the chairman, Lambie, the manager, the players, the ticket office staff, the program sellers, the stewards and of course the tea lady are to blame.
I don't recall the tea lady picking the team, giving the team talk at half time or making whacky substitutions. That responsibility was THE MANAGER and he FAILED.
There is no scapegoat, the person paid to be RESPONSIBLE for MANAGING the actual footballers FAILED. Thus it ever was and he needs to be sacked and as much as he's been a damm fine player for the club and all around nice guy, we don't give a stuff. What matters is on the park and getting the best out of the players HE BOUGHT, and he didn't, Gareth you FAILED and a more honourable person would have resigned instead of trying to hold onto his fat pay packet a bit longer
As for SG's comment about not hiring a German manager, we don't give a stuff who managers the team Steve, just that he's successful to the level we expect (we don't expect to win the premier league by the way). We expect you to back him, the fans will back him but if he fails then we expect our chairman to make the appropriate decision to get rid of him or even her to be honest. A dwarf from Mars would be acceptable if it made us play decent football and we won a few games.
There are no prejudices in football for players or managers, the fans don't question anyone with talent, what we do question is rewarding failure. I for one wouldn't have minded someone managing our team with the German tradition of working for the team, running and fighting til you drop, winning is the most important thing and fitness is everything.
Apart from probably not understanding the Teesside humour (& I include the Mackems from Stockton there - sorry case of foot in mouth), that's exactly the type of people we are, tough, no nonsense, hard working people rather than those softies from down south (we include Crystal Palace as down south by the way) and we expect our team to show those qualities with some flair of course !!
There is no personal animosity to Garth, I was delighted when he arrived here to play, he gave his all for the club and he was given a chance but unfortunately he has proved that he doesn't have the ability to manage our club at this time.
We, unlike SG, do not spend 40 hours a week in his company, we are like the stock market, we judge on the quality of the products provided, the results and future prospects versus the competition.
We have seen good young players leave the club replaced by inferior replacements (Maccaroni v Aladiere is a good example) and key personnel not replaced when it was plain for everyone to see that we needed to replace Schwarzer, Boateng, Rocky and Arca and we ended up with losing Cattermole as well and keeping Arca. Although I think Digard has been a good find but he might not want to stay now, he came here to play Premier League, as did Emnes as I recall !
As for blaming the forwards for not scoring enough goals yes that's true, but we didn't create a lot of chances over the course of the season - we were very poor. However leaking like a sieve at the other end was the reason we went down.
Giving up soft goals all season with the famous Zonal defence and having a nap in the last 10 minutes of most games cost us lots of points, not hitting the post a couple of times.
A solid defence was made indecisive and suspect by not buying a quality keeper, by selling Young at the wrong time, by playing just about everyone at rightback during the season and giving Pogi games at leftback caused this. Gareth made those choices and FAILED.
I bet the tea lady would have chosen a better defence over the season - I know my mam did !
AV said: "**AV writes: I recently got told Felix Megath straight from the horse's mouth. "
I have only listened to half an hour of SG so far (due to the lame way the BBC doesn't allow seeking and so you have to listen to the News from several days ago).
But what he said was the MON came to dinner and told Gibson that he was not interested in Boro, because they did not have enough resources to play in Europe. This was days after Boro played in the UEFA CUP FINAL.
So, on the one hand, Gibson is saying, as explicitly as a Chairman can talk about the manager he is keeping - "we could not get anyone better to come to Boro" and in his usual self-contradictory way, he said "We could have got a manager who had just won the Bundesliga two years in a row, but we thought he and his staff were too German".
After reading recently about people like Bob Nardelli, I am getting more and more the impression that most successful people are lucky or con artists. I really do think that SG believes his statements, so I have to conclude that he is lucky.
His big piece of luck as MFC owner was signing McClaren. People forget that we arguably had the top three strikers in the Premier League at one point, especially in terms of goals per minute played. At the same time, we had the captain of a Champions League Final team who was the number three transfer fee in all of football. All came because of McClaren, and frankly, despite it being Middlesbrough.
After the UEFA Cup Final, MFC had one brief moment when it could have sustained that level of success. I do not blame all the conspiracy theories, when they see Gibson sign Southgate instead of a two-time Bundesliga winner.
Some clubs would have sacked Southgate the next morning after Ben Watson chose Wigan instead of Boro. When I watched Newcastle play Boro, I was struck by the presence of players who McClaren rejected (such as Peter Lovenkrands). The fact that Boro could not even play to their level speaks volumes.
PS Google says: "No results found for "manager who survived relegation". "
PPS (AV - perhaps you can paste this into the PS)
Answering my own question, the answer to the trivia question "Previous Premiership Managers who have survived relegation" is, of course, excuse my blind spot, Bryan Robson.
Probably, THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING:
"Despite these set backs the board kept faith in Robson and he repaid their loyalty with automatic promotion back to the Premiership in 1997–98. "
Note that the 1997 relegation WAS DUE TO THE CLUB, NOT THE MANAGER, as Boro would have stayed up where it not for the 3-point deduction.
Clearly, Gibson is inclined to think that when MFC is relegated, it is the fault of the staff and not the manager, and that the result will be promotion the next year, because that is the way it worked last time, and perhaps some unknown goof by the staff (Alves ??) is considered the main factor in relegation by Gibson. Again, he needs to tell us what that is.
Admittedly, Robson had no more managerial experience than Southgate, so probably we are arguing our points in vain...
**AV writes: There are few managers who survived relegation from the Premiership... Lennie Lawrence for one.
In view of the debts how about playing the theme tune to Steptoes and Son?
Another possibility is Last of the Summer Wine - three footloose blokes getting up to scrapes with little chance of success.
Or Some Mothers Do have Them as our hapless anti hero gets things wrong only to stand there with a gormless look on his.
I still havent listened to Gibbo's interview because it was likely to infuriate or reinforce peoples views. Having read the comments above it looks like it was wise decision.
**AV writes: I recently got told Felix Megath straight from the horse's mouth.
Ruud Van Nistelrooy a pal of yours then is he AV.
Maybe the Boro can tempt Paul Scholes with a player coach role?
Just out of interest, when are the Gareth/Gibbo out brigade going to stop ranting and actually concentrate on next season?
Are are you going to keep stomping your feet until you get what you want, or are you going to accept Gibbo has made his decision and move on?
**AV writes: The next stage of grief is bargaining: setting deadlines - 10 games, 12 games, until we go out of the League Cup in the 3rd round to Brentford.....
In the 12 seasons prior to moving to Beverley in 2007, I lived in Fleet, Hampshire.
In that period I only missed three home games, and that included pre-season friendlies, the League Cup, FA Cup and UEFA Cup.
I went through six cars in that time as the distance was nigh on a 600 mile round trip. Since which, I now make close to a 200 mile round trip. I suppose that definately takes me out of the five mile zone, if not makes me a stark raving lunatic!
I have renewed again - Come on Boro....
Hi AV,
Looking at the image that you claim is a map, could the signature red pin used indicate you have used Google Maps/API to create this graphic? I think you have and would just like to add that the screen shot image supplied on this website is illegal without the proper acknowledgment to the source.
You must show the copyright text and Google logo. Check out the permissions page at the link provided:
http://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html
**AV writes: Yes you are right it is Googlemaps. I'll check the copyright situation but I believe we have a groupwide agreement on use.
The club simply needs to stop playing on the fact that the adminstrative borough has a mere population of 142,691. This was the same thing that stopped the town getting city status.
Constantly the club and the town shoot themselves in the foot and propagate the 'small town' ideology. Part of that still harks back to the local government reorganisation act of 1974, which didn't do Boro any favours and continues to do.
Why a continuous urban area that has a good 100,000 residents in a neighboring district or borough is beyond me, unless its a big city or the like where you can't draw the boundaries so clearly. But the east end of Middlesbrough, say for example Eston (not in 'Middlesbrough') does have a clear boundary and end before you get to Redcar.
Quite clearly this excuse of being a similar sized town to say Ipswich doesn't wash. Ipswich isn't part of a conurbation - but they get decent support and have had some success as a top flight time in recent years. In truth, Ipswich probably have about 20% of the same level of population to draw on for support as the Boro. So its all total rubbish and spin.
I was born in Stockton as a result of local government reorganisation in 1974 that would have otherwise meant be being born in Northallerton. So Mr Gibson, that makes me a Mackem too rather than this pure bred Yorkshire fanbase you claim.
Don't know about you Mr Gibson, but despite me having a stronger Yorkshire accent than yourself, and having lived in West Yorkshire for a while, they have very different views. So lets stick together on Teesside and keep as they said in 1996 when Cleveland was abolished it for "Cultural and Ceremonial Purposes" for the Durham and Yorkshire sides of the Tees.
It's the 13 letters in our name that's to blame !!
Me Grandad was right all along....
where do Ironopolis play these days??
Gibbo, so 95% of Middlesbrough fans are from a 5 mile radius? What a load of codswallop. I've never missed a game in 20 years and I live 11 miles away. Boro is a Teesside club.
If i was you i would change the name. Middlesbrough has 13 letters in it - the only club in the world. Its unlucky. Change it to simply "Boro FC" then that name represents all the boroughs of Teesside - Stockton/Redcar/Mbro?Hartlepool and also I would build another tier on the ground add the price of the new 5,000 seats into the price structure now so all the prices come down.
Then come out yourself and tell the people of Teesside that this is their club,and Mr Gibson you will fill the ground because we all love Boro, its ours it like the river Tees it runs through our blood.