No Self Pity From Men Of Iron

Seems to me that with a little 'good management' this could all have been easily avoided and to say we are just being put back in our place to be honest AV is a bit insulting.

We will not go down this season in my view due to having a team incapable of competing with most of the premiership ...we are going down due to rank bad decisions from the manager upwards.

Yes we are never going to win the premiership but the ethos of putting novices in charge with no experience was always destined to fail. Not only that but most of the supporters could see it coming long before the people who matter and make the decisions!

In an attempt to at least partly counter the growing swell of predictability in some quarters of the Boro support, I will NOT be shouting for Gareth Southgate’s removal on Saturday, irrespective of the result.

That doesn’t mean to say that I don’t expect such a reaction, because I do. I also wouldn’t be surprised for it to be before and during the match also. It’s potentially going to be ugly – and embarrassing. And that is both sad and utterly disappointing. It’ll be worse than being beaten at St James’s Park. And I don’t really want to be a part of any ugly mob culture that turns on its own.

Yes, Boro have had a lousy season – on top of two pretty mediocre seasons, but there are some pretty fundamental reasons for that which transcend and mitigate to an extent, Gareth Southgate’s management. And they won’t change, irrespective of how much people are hurting.

And until people get their heads round the fundamentals, they’ll have trouble coming to terms with the situation and they’ll be eaten up by it. Calling for people’s heads may be temporarily cathartic. But it’s only an analgesic and not a cure.

Tees Exile: That was more than a half-decent reality check! Great post.

That said, it’s hard not to have empathy with Tony Black's emotional reaction. In fairness, it does get more than a little frustrating for fans to be on the sidelines and watch while the same errors are repeated time and again on the field.

That’s entirely understandable. But it's precisely that, the repeated errors, the poor decision making, the errors, the inability to adjust – at any level - that makes it obvious to me that the squad, as assembled, simply isn't good enough for the Premier League. It's NOT down to just one man though.

And this is where my views digress from those of Tony Black and many others. If, to exorcise their ire, people feel the need to point the finger at only one person, it should NOT be Gareth Southgate.

No one person is to blame for Boro’s plight. Blame is NOT the right word either. But no single word can possibly capture the entire range of circumstances that have brought about Boro’s almost inevitable exit from the Premier League. Changing the manager is not the answer and will not bring back “the good times”. Because the manager is NOT the root cause of Boro’s woes.

Many won’t want to hear this, but from where we are now, it’s probably not even part of the answer. As a direct consequence of his experiences, Southgate will be a wiser and better manager than at any time in the last three years. And if Boro are to rebuild, I for one would far rather rebuild with a man of character, integrity and who cared for the club and its long-term future, rather than with a man who sells his services to the highest bidder and whose ambition is focused solely on himself.

Circumstances around and inside MFC have changed and the financial situation, irrespective of whether Tony Black or anyone else considers it otherwise, has been the dominant factor – not the only one, but the dominant one - in moving Boro to where we are now.

No amount of attention to secondary or tertiary influences can backfill for a fundamental shortage of the primary prerequisite for continued Premier League membership. Sure, there are overlaps in the influences of all factors, but fundamentally, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I don't suppose that anyone at the club considered when player-trading was ongoing that we were in fact buying pork in Jim Thomson's! (For those who don't know, Jim Thomson was the main influence behind Thailand's modern silk industry). However, from the fans’ perspective, and with hindsight, judgments were wrong when the squad was being assembled.

And although some will quickly jump on Gareth Southgate for that also, that would be unfair on several counts. Principally, because it's NOT how Boro's management team works – so we’re led to believe (and there’s evidence in support of it).

Gareth Southgate doesn’t set the budget!
Gareth Southgate doesn't write the cheques!
Gareth Southgate doesn't do the scouting!

Southgate focuses on what he's got, tries to get the best out of them (whatever that is at any particular time) and tells others what he needs and where he's short of resources. If he can be accommodated, then he will be. If he can't be, he will have to make do with what's available - or what can be made available within the constraints of MFC "the business" or "the market”.

Sure, he’s perhaps guilty of naivety. Which newly-appointed manager – or anyone in a new role in any field - isn’t? That doesn’t make them intrinsically bad at what they do, all of the time. And with time, they usually get better with experience. Most fair-minded people will acknowledge this.

The squad was assembled on a tightening budget and against other constraints facing MFC and our intrinsic external image - which is always something we've had an uphill battle with and in which the national media and the Premier League publicity machine have played no small role perpetuating – subconsciously or otherwise. Sins of omission are just as serious as those which are deliberate!

Regrettably, I feel that Steve Gibson, faced with some difficult choices, possibly even his companies' solvency, probably made sub-optimal decisions (viewed from a purely "Boro" perspective, rather than from a business viewpoint), which may have accelerated, or brought forward the inevitable. Hard to swallow! But fact, nevertheless! We (have to) live with it and move on!

HOW we move on depends, mostly and primarily, on Steve Gibson’s business strength and what funds are available to redress what's gone wrong. Unless there are substantial playing staff improvement changes – in quality and quantity - Boro will not return to the Premier League anytime soon. We'll all have different views on that, but there's only one that really matters! It’s not mine. And it’s not Tony Black’s.

Weighing up all the evidence, albeit mostly circumstantial, my personal assessment is that we, the supporters, need to prepare ourselves for a protracted period outside the top flight. It’s constraints on money that’s brought us here and it’ll be constraints on money that will be the main barrier to a return. Unless Bulkhaul suddenly lands several of its biggest contracts, ever.

But somehow, having recently flown over and then sailed through the Straits of Singapore and seen kilometer after kilometer of sea-space taken up by billions of tons of empty cargo vessels and tankers idle at anchor, it’s going to be a while before “normality” is restored to the cargo trade in which Steve Gibson’s MFC-underwriting business operates. The two cargo ships which have been berthed for several months at Middlehaven, adjacent to the Riverside Stadium, are also testimony to that – but perhaps they’re not seen in that light by everyone.

And for goodness sake, let’s all stop dreaming about there being a queue of investors out there keen to plough the hundred million or so into MFC that it will take to get Boro into the top end of the Premier League. Nobody’s interested!

In considering this, it’s worth asking why, with all their billions, Laksmi Mittal, Favio Briatori and Bernie Ecclestone would prefer to invest in QPR – a Championship club – rather than Boro – a Premier League club – or any other Premier League club that may be available, for that matter?

Even if they were, it would be Steve Gibson’s decision about whether to accept any offer or not. And with Gibson having bankrolled Boro to the tune of £60M of his own assets’ worth, he’s unlikely to write it all off and hand over control to an external asset-stripper. Are we so naïve that we’d expect Steve Gibson to do that? Now if he was to prove me wrong, THEN there’d be a case for recommending him for the biggest community award in history! But I’d recommend nobody should hold their breath waiting for it to happen!

On the other hand, people should perhaps wonder where they’d have been in football terms for the past 22 years, had Steve Gibson not taken the reins and injected his support. They may not have had a football club at all, instead of having, like me, the most wonderful football-supporting experiences of my life, in the last 12 or so years!

If as Richard implies Southgate is not responsible for signing cheques, and the scouting who I may ask is the person responsible?

It is obviously SG who sets the budget and the fascilities at Rockcliffe Park are owned by SG so it is not all gloom for his investment.

I cannot understand how we came to the decision to blow 12 million on Alves when there must of been cheaper options.

Also the denial before Xmas of the need for an out and out striker, although it is too late now and it is no offence to the player but I would of let Downing go at that time and bought someone worthwhile to score.

AV

No, no, no, no - a million times no!!

No-one should suggest we all drop to pieces when Gibbo, The Count, Gate and the players complete the trashing of our Prem status. Nor will we.

But nor should anyone meekly accept - or have to accept - or, much worse, romanticise that our given status as a town or a football club is 'naturally' small town, second rate, 'accept what you're given', 'tug your forelock and be grateful', 'we know our place' mediocrity.

The reason why we were that way - as a town and team - for so long is that that's the attitude people had and some, evidently, still have. If we go back to that then the destiny is, not a season in The Championship but a generation or more as we've had before.

What was so good about that that we should welcome going back to it?

There is no inevitability about being second rate - we know that from the last dozen years - but you can think your way into it by just accepting it.

There was also no inevitability about the trashing of our Prem status this season either. It has been the result of what Gibbo, The Count, Gate, the coaches, backroom staff on the football side and the players have done and not done.

Had even a proportion of the mistakes not been made or a smidgeon of the opportunities available taken then Boro wouldn't be where they are now.

And I'm not talking about bags of cash either. If the 'living beyond your means' days have gone, there's still been enough, in my view - both absolutely and relative to the other teams in the Prem resource bracket that Boro can be properly compared to - to have survived and done tolerably well.

Apart from a few 'foamies' everyone knew that Europe was a pipe-dream this season and didn't expect it. The issue is not the resource - it was what has been and is being done with that resource.

And, whilst it may not be likely, it is not beyond the people who have been the authors of this season's debacle to repeat the dose next season in The Championship.

There'll be a rookie manager again in Gate. If anyone thinks the assets have been stripped so far, it'll pale into insignificance when the resource available drops like a stone (despite the parachute!) and all the players who can find a berth in a Prem or good quality European side leave.

Anyone who thinks that there's a well-spring of young talent to step into their places, have a look at the form of the ressies and the Academy teams this season.
I see all the stories about what a great crop of 13 year olds we've got but what use is that next year or for five or six year after that?

I'm sure that the likes of Norwich, Charlton and Southampton whistled these kinds of 'take it on the chin' tunes into the dark too.

You, Mr. Nicholson and others can wax as lyrically as you like about Boro being also rans and look forward to a future telling the young 'uns about a golden age long past - but I shan't be joining you.

Richard as usual I agree with almost everything you have said above but despite all of the background turmoil at the club, Gareth’s performance/failings at the sharp end of the business is what really counts in his chosen profession. He has been guilty of naivety but as you stated with time, people usually get better with experience and this is where after three years he has failed to build and achieve.

He has spent all this season with his Square pegs in round hole tactics imploding on him and then compounded things on Monday night by playing Downing where he did and then masterminded the return of “want away Shawky” paired alongside the “South Coast Kid” in the heart of the team allied to giving Emnes his first ever start in the same game.

This does not indicate to any observer regardless of how impartial or partisan they may be that he has learned anything, especially with local lads chomping at the bit ready to literally die for the club.

The first 45 minutes on Saturday will be a defining watershed in the future relationship of MFC and the fans, after that there will be more than a clamouring of discontent from those that have loyally supported their Boro through what can only be described as dire times.

AV

In addition to my earlier posting (not yet appeared - so may have fallen foul of captcha) have you changed your mind since 'Derby D-Day is Bigger Than Eindhoven? Or are either or both just journalistic licence?

**AV writes: Well I admit I write using a colourful pallete but the prospect of a return to bleak obscurity is exactly why Monday was so important. It was our last chance to escape under our own steam. Now we are in the hands of others and the stakes are high. The entire Riverside Revolution is in the balance.

AV - just being provocative to stimulate a debate??

Boro are big enough to live in the mid-lower tiers of the Premier League: the facilities are excellent, the fan base compares well with many other established Premier League clubs, and the 'natural resources' coming through the Academy should give us a competitive advantage

Where we have failed is in managing the resources we have effectively/efficiently. The players we've bought have been poor value for money and ineffective - it's NOT the case that we've been outspent by most of the clubs with whom we really compete.

Sound judgement of a player is prerequisite to being a competent football manager...

We've failed to weld the players that we have in to a team, or to organise and motivate them, or even to give them any sense of effective tactical direction; more than that the tactical analysis of our coaches has been ineffective relative to that of our competitors

The ability to do these things is again prerequisite

GS has the responsibility of managing the team - the on-field performances and results are the measures by which he wants to be judged and should be judged. Three years is sufficient time in which to stamp his mark on the team and a period over which a fair assessment can be made - by any objective measure he has failed comprehensively

In terms of the reasons as to why he has failed these are obvious to all of us: he has no experience, and the Premier League is no place in which to start the learning process. Simple...

He should have been given a few years with the Academy players/teams, learning the basics of his trade, gathering knowledge from more experienced coaches, before gradually progressing through the divisions and gathering enough experience/expertise to enable him to take on the challenge of managing a club who had just finished second in a major European tournament

Playing is not the same as managing

The responsibilitry for this is Steve Gibsons - he has enough experience as a Chairman to calculate the risks. Having taken the risk and seen the impending catastrophe (even if he recognised this belatedly) he should have acted sooner and decisively to redress the situation - he didn't and chose instead to continue on the same downward and otherwise directionless journey

This is not to say that this makes him a write-off or that everything that he has achieved over the last +20 years counts for nothing. Equally, these achievements don't automatically disqualify him from having his judgement questioned on this occassion. He is human, he's entitled to make mistakes but by the same token it would help to restore confidence among his followers if he recognised the obvious, accepted responsibility and acted to remedy matters

I'm sorry, but I don't accept the fact that three years of increasing failure qualifies anyone to continue and particularly on the basis of the lessons they've learned, and more so when there is so little evidence of that learning being put in to effect. We are not witnessing a process of gradual improvement here - week on week we're setting new records of unprecedented and abject failure that will probably stand for the next one hundred years. Think about it

In common with most pundits, I feel that we are at another crossroads. How we face up to our realities, where we go from here, who stays and who goes, these are the things that will determine the shape of things to come

So if Gareth goes who should we appoint? Steve Coppell is intelligent, articulate and has integrity. His tenure at Reading was a golden period for the club - it was the fans overwhelming support that persuaded him to stay on after they'd been relegated. Now, after an end of season slump has seen them miss out on a Premier League return he has decided to step aside with dignity and with his respect intact

He is ideal for Middlesbrough. He will see it as a step up; he has the same personal qualities that Steve Gibson values in Gareth Southgate, but importantly he also has a proven record and vast experience. His teams also play exciting, entertaining football

As others have said, this area is tough and resilient, and we're used to hard knocks. We are battle hardened and have come back from injustice and heartbreak before, turned despair into a rousing battlecry, picked up the gauntlet and fought back to claim victory against all the odds

All we need right now is to have our belief restored.

I read Richard’s post with interest, exploring the reasons of Boro’s demise this season. Eloquent and intelligent as always but I fear his is a one sided argument. While exploring the financial aspects, Richard’s post does not explore in any depth the footballing reasons why we are in such a perilous position.

Yes of course the financial restrictions have had a huge effect on our ability to build a stronger squad and this is a legitimate consideration into why we are facing relegation.

And yes as a result GS has had to manage the club (the team?) on a shoestring that deserves consideration in the aftermath.

But is that the only factor to dwell on at such length? Our financial situation could be directly compared to clubs such as Wigan, Fulham, West Ham, Bolton, Stoke
..and dare I say, Everton. These clubs too are suffering from lack of financial support. I would guess that 12 out of the 20 EPL clubs are suffering the same plight

So having said that, could there be other reasons for our dire situation?

Tactics? Team selection? Not ever knowing the best eleven? Playing players out of position? Poor substitution decisions? Poor signings? Not playing a certain “project” all season and then throwing him into the biggest game in our recent history in front of 51,000 passionate away fans? The ever present problem of defending dead ball situations? Aren’t these reasons to consider?

Any management team in any business can be defended when things are going wrong due to financial restrictions and external influences but if their lack of competence is tangibly exposed then surely a chairman somewhere along the line of pending failure has to take action to stop the rot before the failure is complete.

The teams mentioned above, suffering from the same financial malaise, have one very strong claim over the set up at MFC. Better footballing management. They have demonstrated how to overcome the financial restrictions by adopting shrewd management decisions, by signing genuine players who produced immediate payback, by introducing stability into the team and the club.

Stability, that is the word I was looking for. Boro have had none of that from a footballing point of view under Gareth Southgate. Teams having squads of comparable ability have basically retained the same players, the same set up, same tactics week in week out and the policy has paid dividends. We have chopped and changed and searched desperately for the right blend, and to date, have failed miserably.

That said, I am not one calling for Southgate’s head. I know from personal experience that gaining experience is (not “can be”) a painful experience. Without exception, mistakes are made along the way and the bigger the mistakes the better the man for it.

That pain should not be wasted. The argument to counter that is that we should have brought in a manager two years ago who had gone through that pain elsewhere but it is too late for that.

To those who think I have given up on Boro, I have already renewed my season ticket. Slowly I became resigned to relegation after the defeat to Stoke. It was hard to get into that mindset but now I feel comfortable with it.

I look forward to the expectation of winning games, to the chance of winning something, to the happy faces around the Riverside after many years of struggling against the obscenity of the EPL tide.

We aren;t down yet. Beat Villa and West Ham and we're safe. Let's save this chat.

BTW Vic, the captcha thing is really a bit tricky!

**AV writes: I know. I am trying to get it zapped. Bear with me.

Lads and lasses, you have excelled yourselves! This blog is surely the best ever. The strength of the arguments on this thread, whether for or against, make me proud to be your fellow fan.

To Richard and others I would say that I don't want a manager, however articulate and genuine he is, who presides over an 11 match losing streak away from home with just 3 goals scored, and who has proved entirely unable to stop the rot.

To others I would repeat my view that GS is no longer a rookie manager - he's now been in charge for 112 Prem games - ample time to get it right.

Like many I was disappointed when he got the job but was prepared to give him a chance; during his first 2 seasons he got things wrong and I rashly called for his head on here on at least 2 occasions; he proved me wrong and kept us up. Mid-table obscurity. GS should have been able to build on his growing experience; we were promised a side that would challenge for a top 8 or 10 place and which would play fast, flowing football and most of us bought into that. But this season has been an unmitigated disaster, even if GS was saddled with unmanageable expectations in terms of cutting back the budget.

I will always be eternally grateful to Steve Gibson for giving us unparalleled success and excitement over the`past 11 years, and I will never ask for him to be replaced. But I will also never understand why he failed to move Gate out or bring in a mentor when it has been so obvious for so long that we were heading for the`trapdoor, when the side keeps on making the same basic errors, and worst of all,that we have shown no stomach for the fight.

That last aspect alone is what makes Gate's continued tenure inexcusable.We haven't had the guts - a terrible indictment of his leadership because it's in complete contrast to the way he played for us for so many years.

You're dead right, AV:- "The entire Riverside Revolution is in the balance." But it shouldn't be, and I will never forgive Southgate if (when) he does take us down.
I'm a half-full kind of guy, but I don't look at the immediate future (the next two weeks and next season) with any optimism. Much as I admire his integrity and his loyalty to Boro and his great years as captain, Southgate has to go.

I dont buy the 'oh well, were going back to where we belong, it was good while it lasted, punching above our weight' stance. Yes, we aren't a big club, but if all teams took that stance, then Fulham, Wigan, Stoke, Bolton, Blackburn may as well just pack up next season then and get ready to go back to where they belong hey?

We get bigger crowds than your Bolton's, Wigans and Blackburns and I do not think it is unrealistic for us to be aiming for where they are.

With good management, Europe is an outside chance but look at Fulham, I fancy them to do it. With good management so have Bolton etc in the past.

For me, we weren't one of the three worst teams in the Premier League on paper this season. Not by a long shot I dont believe. You ask yourself how many of Stoke or West Brom's players would be instantly looking to be snapped up if they were relegated?? Not as many as will be circling around ours!

You'd have to realistically say Downing, Tuncay, Pogatetz, Johnson, Huth, Turnbull, O'Neill, Alves, Aliadiere etc will all attract interest from Europe and other teams, and I cant honestly say that there would be that many players being chased after at a Hull or a Stoke.

Personally I'd have to add that how Aliadiere attracts any interest whatsoever from anyone is beyond me, the man has absolutely no end product. Perhaps it has been agent hearsay linking him with "Roma, Werder Bremen and Schalke".

I just think with an experienced manager who knows the game well we could have had a far better season. Look at what a shrewd appointment Hodgson was for Fulham. He has took 15 different teams into Europe in his career, a phenomenal achievement.

I understand fully that we may be embarking on a "dark age" after the bright lights of our golden period. But we still apparently have one of the best academies in the country and you would expect a side in the championship with Wheater, Riggott, Taylor, Johnson etc to do well at that level. The likes of Williams whose probably our third choice right back earned rave reviews at potentially-Premier-bound Burnley for god sake and walked into their first team!

I think if we can appoint a good experienced manager next season - I'd love Curbishley but taking a gamble on a decent Championship manager like Owen Coyle from Burnley or Gary Johnson at Bristol City - could prove fantastic for us.

Look at what Moyes has done for Everton since they plucked him from Preston, if we could get "the next Moyes", there's no doubt where we could be heading, even on a budget-straight back up.

Anyway, its sad fact that we could be relegated from the Premier League this weekend. We shouldnt be in this situation but are due to poor acquisitions, poor management, lack of motivation, terrible tactical decisions, a horrendous backroom staff and a complete bunch of idiots who are out scouting.

These people all need removing, and a complete restart next season.

Mythbuster is spot on - Steve Coppell is a man of honour and standing by his words.

Now, Gibson should be on the phone getting him in place to manage our sorry rabble next season. Maybe, as Coppell's former captain, Southgate could put a good word in? Or even, stand down and be his assistant - and actually learn some of those lessons?

Gibson can't afford to miss a trick here, a managerial team of Coppell and Southgate would be a good balance, if a little expensive, and allow our managerial project to have a friendly arm round the shoulder.

The question is whether Coppell would risk his reputation on taking us on, and whether Southgate is too proud to stand down or do the number 2 job for a while...

Boro started the season with the aim of finishing in the top seven - well that's what they told Stewie at least. It even looked a possibility after the first six games as we tried to keep in touch with Hull. I even remember the MOTD pundits holding up Boro as a good side with plenty of goals in the team.

Oh how things have changed - except we're still trying to keep up with Hull - What went wrong? I guess it was how the club handled the impending January transfer window both from players having their heads turned and the need to strengthen the side.

It seemed to me and many others all was not right in the Boro camp - although Southgate resisted any temptation to do a Phil Brown and humiliate his players - it was not a happy camp. So where did it all go wrong?

- Downing handed in his transfer request

- O'Neil got 'homesick'

- The artist formerly known as Tuncay went AWOL

- 'Two Limos' Mido walked like an Egyptian

- Turnbull won the battle of the keepers but lost the shirt

- Wheater was pushed over to right-back and lost his chance of an England cap

- Alves lost his vision as barn doors began to shrink week by week

- Digard used up his book of sick notes

- Pogi was pushed back to left back and continued to play like a centre-back

- Ali continued to run down cul-de-sacs.

- Emnes was still suffering from his invisibility condition

- The in-form Jinky was waiting in the wings to be recalled from loan to save the day.

So when people praise Southgate's man management skills we should ask questions about all of the above. OK, maybe one day Gareth will make a good manager - but how long are we prepared to wait for this to happen?

Sadly he's going to have to move on to realise this as he has used up his credibility at Boro - it happens to every manager at some point in their tenure, he needs to move on to start with a clean slate and put into place the lessons learnt.

Interetsing discussion but it just screams out that we have all pretty much accepted relegation now.

I think this the most important summer since 1998 coming up. Rebuilding the team might be fairly easy because we still have a high profile and a lot of money (for the Championship) but rebuilding fans morale might be a LOT harder.

Mr Average: As might be expected I enjoyed you earlier posts. I'd have to disagree with the observation in your most recent one however, that we've got a lot of money (for the Championship).

Fact is that any business which is in debt to the tune of £90M does NOT have a lot of money. It is seriously in debt!

That it is largely debt to the owner's other business simply means that the demands for repayment MAY not be as high or as early as "external" debt. But that is up to the whim of the Owner and any external pressures being applied to him by creditors and other business issues or projects he has on the go!

An enjoyable read as ever.

Firstly, I (like others) disagree with the sentiment of the original post. I think it smacks of defeatism and, as a Boro fan, I don't want to be associated with that kind of dated philosophy. That was the mindest of that should by now have been historicised by achievements everyone on Teesside can be proud of. People can view the 90s and 'Naughties' as an abberation if they so choose to; I view those years, rather, as the platform upon which a competitive if unspectacular but crtainly enjoyable Premiership existence could have founded. We went a long way to achieving that during the McClaren years. That good work has largely been undone by a sequence of bad decisions (I don't like the phrase "sub-optimal" used elsewhere - it sounds like 'management-speak' to me)

I also disagree with any analyses that view Boro's plight purely through the prism of economic downturn, though I realise that this is obviously a contributory factor. Money is the means, but what you do with it is equally (if not more) important.There will be no injection of funds from Steve Gibson to strengthen the club's withered financial arm - that much is clear. The club may not be in a position to employ the best players in the world, but they can employ a manager with a proven track record of getting the very best out of players that the club can afford. Three years into his managerial career, Southgate has not enhanced his reputation with regard to this crucial aspect of management.

The Riverside Revolution is a much a mental struggle as it a battle for points on the pitch. It's bound up with the idea of 'we shall be'. We need to start thinking that we ARE a Premiership club who had a bit of a wobble when they put their faith in the wrong man for all the right reasons.

To my mind, the transition to becoming a Premier League outfit has been made. The pre-Riverside mindset of the being the loyal followers of luckless club is the mentality of losers. The coming season should be brief the start of the Riverside Restoration, that is, the project of reclaiming our place amongst the Wigans, Boltons, Fulhams and Sunderlands of the Premiership.

Cinderella, as I recall, ended up as royalty and thus part of the establishment.

A.V. as an aside to all of the above, and to throw a little humour into the pot, perhpaps you would like to change your initials this weekend. Too much like the opposition ! CB

Jaguar boy

Wigan against ManU showed that work rate and attitude can help you compete against the bigger teams. Just saying we cant get anything and rolling over at the earliest opportunity shouldn't even come into consideration never mind be plan A.

Onto the Gibson debate. Steve Gibson is a Teesside hero and legend and always will be. We owe him a huge debt of gratitude for bringing the club so far from the doldrums. There is no need for him to cash in his chips (he wouldnt get much for them) and leave.

He chose the route of benign dicatator and it suited his desires for the club. We have benefitted along the way and I personally have no quibbles.

If he takes on this responsibility of custodian of all things MFC he takes the rough with the smooth. Werdermouth articulated some the issues over the season that have given the impression of a club in a downwards spiral.

Gibbo is the man on the bridge. He along with his senior people have to take responsibility for the plight we are in. That is the nature of management. If the business has three steadily worsening trading years the management have to take the flak.

It doesnt mean they should all top themselves, it doesnt mean they should all resign but they have to cop for the blame. That is what their jobs entail, not just the glory.

Even though most income doesnt come through the gates we sink a lot of time, money and heartache into following Boro. If we are hurting, highly paid employees can show some contrition and own up to their mistakes. Not just Gate as the front man.

Those who sit in the comfort of the Directors Box, those who park in front of the stadium and dont have to battle across the wastelands in all weathers, those players who have let us down but are paid handsomely for being incompetent. They are all indicted for misuse of resources.

And don't go calling this a blame culture in operation, it was their responsibility to run the club. If things go wrong that is their fault.

Did I read somewhere that GS said that the team who lost the Tyne/Tees derby were going to get relegated but now he says we can still stay up. I think SG is a nice guy, but he has to make up his mind.

He obviously believed then, that we would win that game and that it would not come down to the last 2 games. He has also been saying for the last few weeks, "we have 10 games to save our prem status", "we now have 9 games to save our prem status", "we now have.....etc."

Reminds of Robo cop "YOU HAVE TEN SECONDS TO COMPLY, YOU NOW HAVE 9 SECONDS TO COMPLY..... ETC." just before that big useless machine blows the guy away in a hail of bullets.

We do need a new manager whether we stay up or go down.

"Lads and lasses, you have excelled yourselves! This blog is surely the best ever."

I'd like to second that. It deserves a prize!

While i don't have a problem with playing in Div 2 (it is less predictable, offers some good away trips, more opportunities for goals ans victories* and staying up will probably mean another season like this one), i cannot agree with the sentiment that we are returning to our natural place as gallant losers.

As previous posts have stated, the club has the ingredients to be an established premier and surely 2004-2006 rewrote the course of history anyway?

* Subject in particular to an improved management regime.

Blimey

What to do with a spare couple of million quid. If only there was another Mr Gibson waiting in the wings to allow Teesside to keep dreaming...

Seems to me like a lot of Boro fans have lost their perspective. Rich people are today an awful lot less rich than they were a year or two ago. Pumping even more tens of millions of pounds into a club that you are never going to get back is a problem that Leeds fans know all about. Boro aren't going to do that. Thankfully.

Boro are not that bad a team, can play attractive attacking football and do have the best youth academy in the UK. Just that this season we didn't have a goal scorer. Had we still had an on form Yak or Viduka we wouldn't be in this situation. Besides, this conversation wouldn't be happening if earlier in the season a couple of those last minute goals hadn't gone in against us. (Do players look back and think "if only")

Personally I don't mind going to Crystal Palace watch the Boro, have done so before and will do again and as long as we win I'll love it.

BoroPhil said:

"There is no reason why we should expect to do a Norwich instead of a Birmingham."

Sorry Phil but I believe there is EVERY reason for us to do a Norwich and NOT a Birmingham.

Birmingham, Wolves etc go down but manage to hold on to the main bulk of the team and then add to it. This gives them a team of players with Premier experince, who know each other and and can fair well in the championship.

Ourselves (and the likes of Norwich and Charlton) will go down and lose the main bulk of the team, leaving us in a rebuilding situation that can take some time to complete.

Sincerely hope we can do a Birmingham. Have many friends from Brum who have told me they are not happy with the manager and they have played badly most of the season, just scraping 1-0 victories. If we could do that and gain promotion I'd be very happy!!!

'Saturday is the supporters last chance to try and get the change in management that this club needs to avoid squandering all that has been achieved under SG.'

What happens if we win?

Patrick Steele

What an excellent point. If we do win on Sat and by some miracle have a chance of taking it to the last day what are the boo boys going to do? Stand open mouthed or have their little chant as "the last chance to get the change in management we all want"? Such action will really give the players an incentive going to West Ham and unite us all for the last chance.

If people can't support the team stay away or nip up to St James and surround yourself with like minded fans. I think Gibson is probably aware of the majority opinion. Fortunately he will make his own decisions and not based on some baying mob.

Amazing debate on this blog - exhausting to read really. And yes, it paints a pretty thorough - if not exactly cheerful - picture of just where everybody's hearts and minds are at right now.

Great to see other people here, like myself earlier in the other blog, suggesting Steve Coppell as a potential candidate if and when GS gets the shove - for the same reasons as has already been put forward.

One quibble about the issue of Boro's "right" to be seen as a Premier league force however -I actually think that for five out of the last seven seasons, we have been PL survivors purely on luck more than merit. Mainly because, the season when we finished 7th and the one immediately before it when we won the Carling Cup apart, we have been at best mediocre, at worst toothless and feeble.

We flattered ourselves when in actual fact we were merely, to all intents and purposes, a Championship / Nationwide side that somehow found ourselves in the fortunate position of mingling up there with the elite for as long as we did. All the cheerfully self-effacing "small club in Europe" stuff going round when we were on a crest of a wave during that one epochal season merely testifies to this surely!

Now, of course, the tables have turned alarmingly: never mind us being a glorified Championship side because the way things have gone this season, we would find it hard to even compete at League One level, such was the dreadful standard of fare we have been subjected to week in week out.

I would dare go so far as to say that come our inevitable tenure in the second tier next season, it might - and could well - unravel like it has done for Norwich, Charlton and Southampton and before we know it we find ourselves dropping down the leagues with anvils round our collective necks. That of course is far too depressing to contemplate but it's still a possibility.

Yes, it's easy to blame the manager for all of this, but of course it's not all his fault - as much blame lies with the overpaid bone-idle injury-prone inexperienced underachievers that make up our sorry squad each time they step out onto the blessed pitch. How much misplaced faith have we, as the supporters, invested in these charlatans time and time again only to have our hopes and expectations shot away with feeble result after feeble result?

So, yes, by all means I'm not exactly chuffed about Southgate and his relative cluelessness and propensity for spouting carefully-scripted non-sequiturs at every available opportunity. But I'm equally angry at the players this season (especially Downing, to name but one prime offender) who have simply NOT DELIVERED , and to think that all of them will be responsible for getting the club relegated makes me feel nothing but shame and humiliation.

In short, they have let the people of Middlesbrough down big time and I hope they carry their shame with them for a little while longer.

AV there has been wonderful, often very intelligent, debate on this blog led by your thoughtful provocative and often supportive (of the Boro that is) aticles that make us Boro supporters laugh, think deeply, get angry or to often this season want to curl up and cry.

I hope S.G., K.L. and G.S all read them. They should. If not then you should print the best and hand copies to them all when you see them at the Villa game. They have to be made aware of what you and the true fans think about the running of our Boro.

I along with many fans have been unhappy with the running of the team/club since the unlikable, but successful SM left us and GS took charge. Saturday will be Boro supporters last chance to be at the Riverside Stadium and once the inevitable defeat comes let all concerned that we want a change of manager to give us hope for next season. UP THE BORO, SOUTHGATE OUT.

Stubbsy:

Your post reminds me of a point I'd intended to make but, as yet, I haven't.

I don't suppose any of the players intentionally go out to play badly. It's not their intent that's in doubt, or in question; certainly not in my mind anyway. In fact, Southgate, like a good manager should, has on occasions, taken those whose intent, attitude and commitment was in question and dealt with it. That's not bad management. That's exemplary management.

I think they've probably got close to the best they could, frankly. It's their overall intrinsic abilities, as individuals and as a squad that isn't good enough. Whether that be in skill, physicality, athleticism, intelligence, imagination, judgment, control, innate football skill or importantly, character, experience and maturity, they're not good enough to compete and succeed, as a squad, at Premier League level.

In fact numerous posters here have highlighted individual players' shortcomings. I haven't – well, not much - although I have agreed with them to a large extent and could add a few to the list.

The main point of contention on this blog is, I believe, between some who consider that, under different management, the squad is good enough and others, like me, who consider that it isn't. And of course, as an extension of that, whose responsibility is it if the squad isn’t, in fact, good enough?

It is my view that the limited capabilities of this talent-challenged squad, has in fact, disabled the manager by closing down options when injury and other first team squad outages happened. That leads to “square-peggism”, as others on here have called it, in an attempt to seek some balance. All in an imaginative attempt to try to coax the best out of an intrinsically mediocre and then depleted squad.

I'm under no doubt whatsoever, that at many times during the season, Gareth Southgate will have wished that he had more and better players at his disposal, that he had at least double cover in all positions with genuinely Premier League quality players. That he hasn't, is down to MFC not being able to afford it. And only able to afford the calibre of player that we currently have with the extent of positional cover that we have. And that has meant players "playing out of position" - i.e. doing what they're not most comfortable in, or naturally more "gifted" at.

I'm also of the opinion that the hope at MFC was that the young squad would be good enough to stay in the Premier League and that they'd "grow up" with each other and get better as they matured and that this would give us a stable core of players for a number of years, in principle like the Manchester United crop of Beckham, Scholes, Giggs, the Nevilles, supplemented by a few bought-in hole-fillers as gaps developed for whatever reasons.

I think, however, albeit with hindsight, everyone would have to agree that the inherent risk of that strategy has been too great. We've been caught out.

But that strategy was only adopted because we couldn't afford the alternative! And at the end of the day, it’s therefore ultimately, about money!

**AV writes: I have no doubt that the heirarchy knew that operating on a thin and young squad was a gamble but they genuinely thought they had enough in terms of talent to get through this season at least without significant investment and that the risk was justified. Most, not all but definitely most, fans thought the same.

The club's big gamble not to invest and instead to address the debt head on was predicated on there being at least three teams worst, and again most fans thought the same. Certainly I did. And so did the bookies. In effect Stoke's robust direct scrapping has upset the calculations and long thrown a spanner in the works.

The real question - which will no doubt be at the heart of the summer inquest - was whether, having seen how the strategic landscape had shifted, the club should have reassessed in January and somehow found funds to beef up the squad. The attempts at bringing in people were low key, low budget and half-hearted and possibly fatally undermined by the political energy invested in battling to keep players here who wanted to leave. But that is for another day.

I see Mendieta is still living in Yarm. Is it too late to get him in the squad for the last two games? Can't do much worse than the bunch we have at the moment.

Originally a Scouser (still a Scouser) I'm now a Boro fan - hooked totally and suitably distraught. And I'm now of the opinion that Boro-fanitis is a deadly virus from which there's no escape and for which there's no cure.

All we need is a miracle. Is that too much to ask?

Nigel wrote:

"Was Copple a good manager in the seasons his teams were promoted and when they survived in the prem. and then a bad manager in the seasons his teams were relegated?"

This depends on what you mean by a “good manager”. In professional football success is based on results. A good manager is a successful manager, but success is relative to the expectations of the club's owners, fans and, to a lesser extent, players.

For example, what Houllier achieved at Liverpool was considered failure. It would probably have been considered a resounding success at Boro, where most, myself included, consider mid-table in the Premier League to be success.

Alex Ferguson is not considered to be the country’s best manager because of his coaching, tactical or motivational abilities. Most people have no direct knowledge of any of those things, however important they may be, only the outcomes they produce. Ferguson is the best manager in England because Manchester United are currently the most successful team in English football.

This applies equally to players. Are Boro fans saying Afonso Alves is a good player because he scored a lot of goals in Holland? Or are they basing their jibes about banjos and cattle on his performance this season? Are they trotting out the pundits’ empty cliché that “form is temporary, class is permanent” to excuse him from not doing what he is being paid to do?

So Coppell was certainly a very good manager when Reading were promoted, because simply playing in the Premier League was success at that point. But, when Reading were relegated, Coppell had to decide to what extent that constituted failure. Last year the fans persuaded him that they didn’t regard it as failure. This year he correctly decided that things have changed. Expectations at Reading are raised, and not achieving promotion was failure, particularly the way it happened.

Harsh perhaps, but that’s why Coppell resigned. He didn’t simply seek a vote of confidence from the chairman, which I’m sure he could have got. Instead, he took a broader view. He can be seen as a victim of his own success, but that’s the way it is, and he’s accepted the situation with dignity.

There’s another tired cliché of the pundits’ that “you don’t become a bad manager overnight”. Unlike most pundit’s clichés, this is actually true. In fact, it takes a whole season, a season like this one.

However you look at it, Gareth has been unsuccessful this season, and he should consider his position. And whether he goes or stays shouldn’t solely be the decision of a chairman who is strangely reluctant to admit that he made an honest mistake.

Steve Gibson should canvass much wider opinion among the fans. Between them, they have put even more money into the club than he has over the past sixteen years, and they have a right to be heard. If it appears that most of them want Gareth to stay, that will be fine by me, but right now it doesn’t seem to be the majority view.

I agree, in practice professional footballers shouldn't need motivating, but these are no ordinary players, these players are Boro players.

Usually it takes a game against a top four team to get them motivated - trivial rewards such as FA Cup semi-finals or avoiding relegation are simply unwanted distractions.

So perhaps Gareth should tell them to just go out and enjoy themselves as we're as good as down - after all Gareth 'ask me a straight question and I'll dig myself a big hole' Southgate is not one for putting a spin on things - he should just play last year's Man City video before the game.

OK, perhaps I'm being unfair on the players, as Southgate will continually remind us is that they are also young players who are learning lessons - who we shouldn't forget - cue Gareth - are being led by a young manager also learning lessons.

Although many fans would advocate change following such a disastrous season, Southgate is keen to get his collective learning curve message across in today's Guardian, which is ended with this absolutely priceless quote:

"There are no thoughts in my mind of doing anything different next season but of course I have learned lessons," he said. "I think you would be mad if you were in this position and had not learned lessons but the benefit of hindsight is something we have every Monday morning after a fixture"

Just put the spade down Gareth, now move away from the hole before the whole Riverside is engulfed - Mmm, maybe he's actually digging a tunnel - cue The Great Escape music as Boro escape to victory...

Peter Davidson,

"And I'm now of the opinion that Boro-fanitis is a deadly virus from which there's no escape and for which there's no cure."

It is worse than that...... we give it to our kids !!!! MY ex wife called it child abuse and I should have pretended to support Man Utd .." for the sake of the children"

Nick makes a good point

Spurs (despite being dysfunctional) had the guts to make changes and have flourished. Blackburn done the same.

Boro have been toothless and sinking like a stone for five months but the club's do nothing acceptance smacks worryingly of Gibson's inability to accept his naive misjudgement in 2006 and that any change would reveal it (the only thing that would be more worrying if he thinks he really did get it right!)

In this life to overcome a problem you have to accept you have one and that's what makes me nervous that Boro are in for three more hapless years wandering aimlessly.

I believe we will be beaten today and there will be more ranting and raving on here that we went down without a fight.

If the advance info on the team is correct we will have Arca Johnson Downing Emnes and Tuncay playing. How lightweight can you get? These players are not going to fly into tackles. It's not their game.

All certainly or probably have the technical skills to play in the PL.Arca is a clever footballer but cant hack the pace and physicality of the league.

We have a squad on paper that looks to be good enough to stay up but isnt. I do not believe it is anything to do with Southgate's motivation but his blindness to the fact we do not have the right mix of technical skill with height strength and power to make a competitive side in this league.

The best example of this is we have scored one headed goal all season-we do not have a forward that can head a ball.

There appears to be several schools of thought

1. It is all down to the club adopting a more prudent model.
2. Further investment would have prevented the situation developing.
3. The playing side has been poorly managed and we have not got the best out of the resources available.

I am firmly in the latter grouping. It also applies to the messages coming out of the club.

But coming up in 50 minutes is the match. I have done my family duty today (there is a ceremony called well dressing in the villages around Derbyshire, the local one is on today - we have gone every year since moving to Derby). I am safely in position in front of the computer awaiting Ali's commentary with skysports on TV and the radio ready.

I will be sending score updates to John as the goals go in across the country. He is charged with getting three points.

I'd like to quote the last para of your response to Capt. K:

"If we stay up next year is it worth adding £30m to the debt and risking the entire medium/long term security of the club just to raise the club from 17th to, say, 11th? Or 10th? Or even 7th? Or is it better to address the structural problems now in the hope we are better equipped and financially stable enough for another sustainable Golden Era a few years down the line?"

But where is the evidence that we are addressing any structural problems other than cutting costs? We still have the same management and coaching set-up, the same scouting, the same medics and physios.

If we saw that these problems were being tackled there would be more sympathy for your views. Instead we see a club heading for relegation with a structure that is more likely to lead to Div. 1 than the Premier League.

**AV writes: I agree that for the strategy to work there needs to be a root and branch overhaul of operations top to bottom on and off the pitch. That has been the most pressing problem for years.

So, in response to your comment (above), AV, there's a lesson to be learned - that this was a foolhardy gamble and we're paying a hello of a price.

Trouble is that the way the club has responded as this horror story has unfolded shows obvious lessons weren't learned re strategy and tactics. And the worry is that this unanalytical mind-set will continue into next season until it's too late - and beyond.

Scape-goating and naming and shaming aren't what we need (however tempting) - sound, dispassionate reasoning's what's needed.

But think we're entitled to wallow in being totally ----- 'fed up'.

On the other hand we might win 4-0, Hull might lose 0-6 and N'cstle might lose!