Lamb Savages The Wolfman
KEITH Lamb has laced into "negative" Bernie Slaven in a no-holds-barred interview with Boro fanzine Fly Me To The Moon. The tension between the chief executive and the Glaswegian grumbler has been simmering since the news broke the Century match commentary had been axed - but it is all out in the open now after Lamb's robust two-footed tackle in the fanzine.
Lamb also clarified his controversial statement on the role and importance of season ticket holders, gave an insight into Boro's strategy within the changing economics of football and emhasised that Boro fans are living through a golden age and that there could be more success to come - but only if Teesside continues to support Gareth Southgate's drive for attacking football and Steve Gibson's vision of a club geared up for sport and glory.
Here, by kind permision of FMTTM editor Rob Nichols is the hard-hitting interview in full:
You've mentioned many times before how you believe Middlesbrough to be a special club and something to be really proud of. Is this something you passionately believe in?
Absolutely. I was born in Port Clarence on the other side of the Transporter Bridge. I've lived here all my life. I've been a supporter all my life. My dad took me to my first Middlesbrough game in - I think - 1956. We played Doncaster Rovers and I stood in the Bob End behind the goal. We won 5-0 and Harry Gregg was in goal for Doncaster. Apart from my teens, twenties and thirties when I played football (in the Northern League - Ed) I've always been a Boro fan. This always has and always will be my only club.
So this is a great role for you?
It's fantastic. I get well paid for doing a job that most people would do for nothing. It has it's downs: it doesn't sound right this, but sometimes I get people accosting me in the toilets (laughs) in Yarm if there's been a bad result. But that goes with the territoryand generally my job's a fantastic job. I meet all sorts of interesting people - some famous and some very famous. And some uninteresting! But it's a smashing job.
A few years ago we held firm when other clubs were becoming PLCs and now again we stand out from the crowd in an age when foreign investors are snapping up clubs left right and centre:
This club belongs to the town. It belongs to the people of Middlesbrough and Steve Gibson and myself are only the custodians of it. Our job is to look after the club while it is in our care and hopefully leave it in a better state than we found it, which won't be difficult as we found it in liquidation, in tatters and in the third division.
Where are we today? We're in the Premier League. We've been in Europe two years out of the last three. We've got to the final of the UEFA Cup. We've won the Carling Cup. We've got to those other finals. It's been a fantastic ten years for us. Yet I still think the fans want more and I don't mind that, I'm the same. But they've got to support us to get it.
I've read in Fly Me To The Moon in the past comment about Johnny-Come-Latelies and people who jump on the bandwagon. Well you're absolutely right about that and I don't want people to come and support us just because we are successful. I want people to support us to make us successful.
The fans have to be part of it. The Twe12th Man... I fully support that, I think it is fantastic because the more people we get in the stadium supporting the Boro, the better. And make no mistake about it, the players want that support. The players don't want to see empty seats. Everyone wants a full house. And I don't quite know what more we can do about it.
If anyone thinks it is not enough then it's their right to think that but I question what's the alternative? We can take Steve Gibson out of the equation and let the club exist without his support and see where that gets us. My guess is that it would get us relegation, and then maybe relegation again. Look at Leeds United... it's a very fragile eco-system. I believe it is best left alone. It's working for Middlesbrough.
You mentioned last season when Jonathan Woodgate signed that in terms of cup success, in the past decade, Boro have been bettered only by the Big Four.
Yes, take the top four out and we've appeared in more cup finals than any other team since we moved to the Riverside. The next team is Leicester who have been in the finals. We've been in five.
I think that cause real surprise, almost like the penny hadn't dropped.
Yes. Myself and Steve Gibson, with the help of Dave Allan are determined to create that awareness because I don't think people are thinking about it. We're fighting back now we regards to putting a positive spin on this football club, not for personal gain or to create an illusion about being better than we are, but to create an awareness about how good we are. How good it should be for the people of Teesside. This should be the best time. And yet I look outside even on Sunday against Newcastle to see 6,000 empty seats and I'm thinking... what more do we have to do?
The onus is on the team to play attractive football. I can't force people to come in and watch us but I think if we play as well as we did on Sunday and as well as we did against Blackburn - I though we played really well in the first half - then we are going to win the fans back.We haven't got to put out a begging bowl and beg them to come back, we've got to win them bac. Again, in the end I accept that if they don't want to come I can't make them. And if they don't want to come eventually the people on Teesside will get the club that their support is able to manage.
That was something picked up nationally after the Blackburn game but the week after a lot of the smaller capacity clubs were at home and attracted smaller gates than us. Do you feel we have been picked on?
If you look at any league table of comparisons within the Premier League we are probably 14th or 15th. If you look at capacity we are around there, if you look at attendance or turnover we are there again. And thats why I think in the last ten years we have played... above par if you like. We've been 10th, 12th, 7th, got to the UEFA Cup final, won the Carling Cup. Now you don't expect that from a team that has the resource of 14th place.
What's the difference between that resource and what we've achieved? Well to degree it's been good management, on the field it's been about players doing slightly better but in th emain it's been about Steve Gibson - and myself to a lesser degree - being able to get the best out of our pound. You ask any other football manager who the best chairman is to work for and it's Steve Gibson because he loves this club and supports it to an unbelievable extent. But he can't do it alone. If you think I'm unhappy about 6,000 empty seats just think how pissed off he must be.
So you are wanting to push this message across this season?
Well I am trying to counteract some of the negativity from some of the media pundits, some of whom are ex-players of this football club, who owe their legendary status to this football club and continue to make a living on the back of this football club... and yet they continue to criticise this football club time and time again, and that's what I don't like.
I think we are trying to be more positive about the club and get a positive message across that this football club is at the heart of the community. It's the highest profile organisation on Teesside and the only world class organisation that we have in the town. We should be proud of that. We shouldn't be knocking it at every opportunity.
And we're going to counteract that. If it had been knocked by some journalist in London we'd all be outraged. It's beyond my comprehension why somebody within our midst is criticising the football club. Steve Gibson said on the radio at the weekend, as far as this club is concerned you are either with us or against us. I'm looking for people who are with us and those who are against us need to be identified. They can be against us all they want but they are against us and they are outside the club, not within it. I don't understand those people. That's why we're going to put this positive campaign forward.
Boro fans generally are very patient, very supportive of the football club but I think their view is sometimes coloured by what they hear on the radio. I do it with newspapers, if I read something in the newspaper (for example Abramovich to buy Ronaldinho) then I believe it is true. If I look at the next page which says something like "I wanted to make a sign at the drunkards by Mido" then I know its not true. I know he put his finger to his lips but I don't think drunkards were in his mind. Because it's about Middlesbrough I know it is not true... but I believe everything else.
So when someone writes crap or speaks on the radio - whether it's on Century or Talksport or wherever - and speaks a load of shit I don't believe it. But the people out there do believe it and they say "if Bernie Slaven says it then it must be true, he's got the inside track at this football club". Well, Bernie Slaven doesn't have any inside track at this football club and he never will have, unless he changes and who knows when that will happen.
But I'm not being vindictive, what I'm saying is that Bernie is misguided enough to be damaging the football club. He's not damaging it for me, he's damaging it for everybody because he's turning people off the club. And he knows how I feel and that it's totally unacceptable to me.
Now I'm not saying that if we lose 4-0 at home to Aston Villa he shouldn't say we were bad. I'm talking about his constant griping about this club, the sale of Yakubu and allowing Viduka to leave, totally criticising the club on that. He criticises without the ownership, he doesn't hav eto run the club. He can make these throwaway comments and he doesn't have to think about them or whatever. We all want the club to be successful and if you asked Bernie I'm sure he would say he wanted it to be successful as well. So let's be more positive.
Many years ago you addressed a supporters meeting saying PPV would come in and ground prices would then drop. You could even foresee a scenario where clubs were so desparate to get away fans in they would sell ticket very cheaply. We seem a long way from that.
Not neccessarily, I just think it's taking a bit longer than maybe you or I thought. But it's turning.
You think so?
Yes I do. I think that prices have peaked. Look at Middlesbrough for instance. This is our third season without a price increase, now that's equivalent to a 7.5% decrease if you tak ethe retail price index. What I said at the time was that I thought eventually TV income would subsidise ticket prices. Eventually TV income would be a bigger per centage of a football club's income.
When I first took the job here in 1986 I went to the then League champions Everton to find out from them how you ran a football club and they gave me a pie chart of income. It was much more straightforward then. Basically 60% of your income came through the gate and the other 40% came from other commercial activities including television. You look at a pie chart now of a club's income and you'll find that 60% comes from television aloneabout 25% gate icome and the rest from other commercial activities. So you can see the growth and importance of TV income and how the money that comes through the gate is less essential towards th eoverall success of the club.
That was the point I was trying to make and I made it badly at a press conference a little while ago when I was asked mischievously in front of the cameras about season tickets being down. And I said "in actual fact as far as the club's overall revenue is concerned the onus is on us to play attractive football the make the fans want to watch us. We get more money from people paying on the door than we do on season tickets that are discounted".
I've apologised for any misunderstanding with that. It wasn't that I was saying we don't care about season ticket holders but it was a question of fact. We want the stadium full and igf people are paying full price rather than the discounted season ticket holders we actually get a bit more revenue. And that can only help the club. It doesn't go to pay Steve Gibson and me because that's not how it works. It's ploughed back into the club and helps us grow and grow and get better and better.
Do you not regret that we didn't make any reduction in prices at the end of last season?
Not at all.
I hear what you say, that in real terms the prices have come down compared to inflation but it you had actually physically reduced the tickets by even a nominal amount then surely you would have got a better message across?
What message?
The message that you are a season ticket holder putting your money up front and we want to reward you for your loyalty with a reduction in your ticket cost.
We talked about reducing prices and both myself and Steve Gibson were against it because there is no guarantee by reducing prices that you increase the number of people who come and watch. Two classic examples of that this year are Blackburn and Wigan both of whom have significantly reduced their season ticket prices and matchday prices and have got less season ticket holders than the year before, one 20% down and the other about 15%. So it can backfire as people say the product has been cheapened.
It's been proved in the European games. The first year everyone came because it was a novelty but in the second year they didn't come even though we were winning and winning and winning. They came for the quarter-finals and semi-final and we couldn't get most of them to th efinal because of the ridiculous ticket allocation... but that is another story.
What about Charlton Athletic last season, where we had big reductions on the Saturday before Christmas? It's usually a terrible turn out but we got one of the biggest attendances of the season
We got big crowds but we took less money.
But you said about wanting bigger crowds and a better atmosphere and that that would be better for the players and provide more enjoyment for everyone. So hopefully the crowd will come back for the next match?
But they didn't did they? Your argument was fantastic until that last point. For Charlton on 23rd December we had 32,000 people. For the next game in New Year's Day, traditionally a fantastic game, a Yorkshire derby against Sheffield United we had 27,000. And I bet they brought 3,000.
Obviously this is the week of the transfer deadline and by the time I have published this interview that deadline will be over. But is Middlesbrough still a club able to compete in the world of big transfer signings?
How big do you want? Mido's 6ft 3!
"Spectacular signings" was the quote over the Summer.
I think one man's spectacular is another man's ordinary. It depends on what you are looking at. All I would say is that, as of today, we've spent ã17m and that's not a bad outlay. It's twice what we get through the gate and we've spent it all on transfers. We are not Chelsea or Man United but - going back to what I said earlier - I bet we are not 14th either in terms of the players we bring to the football club. We try to get good value. We're always looking and we remain fiercely ambitious and want to be in that top six.
Can we still break into the top six with all the money flooding into the game?
The players think we can and that's more important than whether I think we can. I hope so. I think we have a very, very astute manager. If he wants to be he can be a really top manager and hopefully that will be with this football club. I think it was an inspired signing by Steve Gibson to move him from club captain to manager.I think that Gareth shares Steve's - and my - ambition for this club. Not for himself ... Gareth is fiercely ambitious for Middlesbrough football club.
So you still have those lofty aims?
Absolutely. Why else would we be here? We are not here for mediocrity. Why would we have just bought Mido, or spent the last two days sorting out for another Egyptian to come? When we played at Hartlepool back in 1986 we wouldn't have dreamt of playing in Europe and going to cup finals. It was then a case of surviving and getting a team out. Since then we've had promotions and relegations and instant promotions again but basically over the last 21 years, from 1986 to now, I think it has been the most successful period in the club's history.
All I would ask the fans to remember is that the only way we can take it on from here is to be in the top six, Europe every year and winning a cup every other year. That's the next step. And the only way we are going to get from where we are now to where we want to be is if everybody pulls in the same direction.
There may be some knockbacks on the way but my plea to the fans is let's all get behind the team - and bring a friend along (laughs.) Let's try and fill the place. We'll try and do our bit by bringing in exciting players like Mido and Rochemback and we'll try to make the place affordable... but again, if you look back 20 years ago to Ayresome Park it was dropping to bits, with crumbling concrete. Look at the facilities we have now in the concourses.
We take things for granted now, perhaps?
We do, and that's life. But it could just as easily fall apart again and it's our job as Middlesbrough people to try and keep it together and do our best to push the club forward.
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The thing is with Keith Lamb is that he has never liked Bernie/ Century since he was shown up live on air about Mclaren on the 3 legends show.
He was banging on about how Mclaren had signed his new contract and there was nothing to worry bout etc when a question was put to him of is the signature actually on the paper, the answer was no its was a verbal agreement at this time.
So basically he was caught out and didnt like it, with respect tho he did continue the intervew and continue to answer the rest of the fans questions.
The problem was with Bernie is that he is a fan who use to play for the club and as he knows he is a legend in thefans eyes. With him knowing this he knows he cant lie to the fans so calls games as he saw them, if people played bad, he would say so.
I understand how the club can see this as negative however all he is doing is voicing the opinion of the fans.
Bring back the century commentry as bbc tees is just boring as they dont get into the match the same way bernie and brownlie did.
**AV writes: It was always my suspicion that Lambie was not as susrprised by that incredibly well informed question as you would expect. If he wanted to he could have fobbed that question off easily but he chose to answer. I think you are barking up the wrong tree there.
Nothing that we have not heard before, I like all Boro fans want the club to be successful and the team is filling me with hope for the season.
âÂÂEveryone wants a full house. And I don't quite know what more we can do about itâÂÂ
Improve access and reduce prices
Set up a partnership with the bus companies to ferry fans to games from areas outside Middlesbrough.
Why not fill an area of empty seats with school kids, give the schools tickets for a nominal fee, the kids will spend money on programmes, burgers and may then badger their parents to take them to the Riverside. These are potential future fans who need to be won over.
âÂÂYes. Myself and Steve Gibson, with the help of Dave Allan are determined to create that awareness because I don't think people are thinking about it. We're fighting back now we regards to putting a positive spin on this football clubâÂÂ
HâÂÂmm, hopefully they have been taking lessons because its often a case of foot in mouth syndrome with Lamb and Allan. I think they have used Prince Phillip as their role model
âÂÂI think we are trying to be more positive about the club and get a positive message across that this football club is at the heart of the community. It's the highest profile organisation on Teesside and the only world class organisation that we have in the town. We should be proud of that. We shouldn't be knocking it at every opportunityâÂÂ
I for once agree with Lamb, but he has to realise that many fans simply can not afford to attend games.
âÂÂI do it with newspapers, if I read something in the newspaper (for example Abramovich to buy Ronaldinho) then I believe it is trueâÂÂ
Surely Lamb is not so naïve that he believes what he reads in the tabloid press, except when it concerns Boro?
âÂÂhow the money that comes through the gate is less essential towards the overall success of the clubâÂÂ
Why not reduce ticket prices if it is less essential?
Many fans simply can not afford to attend games
This is the problem the local media have. Rub the club the wrong way then they ditch you. I can see how the Northern Echo is less biased than the Evening Gazette.
Hopefully Slaven continues with a phone in so we can a balanced view for when boro have been poor. At least with BBC Tees we all get to have a kip.
I think KL knew exactly what he was doing in the aforementioned Century interview.
He gets an awful lot of unfair stick but he's a very smart guy and if anyone else was doing his job, I doubt if the role would be carried out so well.
McClaren was stalling on signing and exposing the truth on the radio was the perfect way to get him to do it. It worked prefectly.
**AV writes: I agree. It was shrewd manipulation and nudged McClaren into signing a deal that was heavily weighted with clauses in the club's favour.
Where has he got the idea that blackburns sales are down despite price reductions? considering everyone else says their sales are 10% up!
his other comment of "what more do we have to do?" is rediculous! LISTEN TO THE FANS if you give customers what they want, they are happy and encourage other people to "buy the product" it not exactly rocket science is it?
"As far as this club is concerned you are either with us or against us. I'm looking for people who are with us and those who are against us need to be identified".
That is possibly the most sinister, paranoid and threatening thing I have ever heard coming out of a football club. Watch out for them recruiting their secret police soon.
They will be after you next AV.
**AV writes: *gulp*
Having read the interview, Lambie comes across as sensible and pragmatic. I have no issue with what he says. Why cant we have joined up thinking and communication all the time from MFC.
There are still some issues not covered in the interview, we dont know if limits were placed on what could be discussed, such as
1. Shirts and badges.
2. Re-engaging the fans.
3. Poor PR
4. Poor communication.
All may seem minor points but they add up as part of the overall package.
The performances have improved in terms of trying to be more positive and we must all applaud that. We dont expect to win every game 6-0, just try to play well and win. Sometimes we will end up losing, sometimes we will end up getting points playing ugly - going to Arsenal and trying to out pass them is fraught with danger.
I have said many times it isnt just price that determines attendances, the fact other clubs did reduce prices increases the pressure on everything else.
A lot of good sense from KL.
Bernie was definitley a whinger. He was far from objective. There was never any reasoned, middle ground with Bernie and I do believe his constant negativity was both uncalled for and unnecessary. It's one of several things that have contributed to falling attendances etc.
Part and parcel of being a fan is that you take the highs and lows and stick by your club.
One fans view of a game is often totally differant to the fan sat next to him. Banter before and after games and on sites like this is needed.
Just because my opinion may be differant to Lambs does not mean that I am against the club.
I don't know which world Lamb lives in but it seems it is not in Planet Boro. He admits that he is well paid for his job, he gets to go to games for free, how keen would he be to go into debt to follow the Boro?
Many fans have to.
I just don't understand all this about Bernie Slaven. Being able to have a moan about your team is what football is all about, and he has every right to speak his mind. Is it Bernie's job to put a positive spin on the club?
I for one would find it boring listening to a radio show where the club can't be criticised. I don't believe for one second there is a single fan that does'nt go to the games because of what Bernie has said.
Stopping the century commentary seems more like a petty way at getting at Bernie when all they are doing is spoiling it for the fans.
Surely there is only one way to get back the fans, and that is'nt shutting people up, it's producing some football like we have been seeing recently and not the crap we have seen for the last few years.
Thats my moan out the way,now I just want to say that for the first time in years I am really exited about going to the games.
I know this is a footballing matter and not an economic one, but I am skeptical as to the argument that in comparison to inflation, ticket prices are down.
I have read several times that over the past ten years inflation has risen to a vastly disproportionate amount in comparison to the average wage. Surely a more important comparison to make would be the one between increased ticket prices and wages.
I don't think it is merely a matter of prices going up, so much as prices taking up a larger proportion of the average fan's cash.
Football, like everything else, is becoming a matter of privillege. The divide between rich and poor is ever greater, and football is slowly but surely being pulled from the average supporters grasp.
Casey99
What Bernie said came from his heart and what we all felt. The items he raised were not issues of balance and reason.
When we had no shots on target he said it was pants and so it was. When we didnt pass to each other he called that pants and it was. When we went away from home with no ambition he said it was pants and it was. When we barely broke into a sweat he called that pants and it was.
When we kept playing people out of position he called that pants and it was. When the team didnt turn up or left at half time he called that pants and it was.
If you go to Kentucky Fried Chicken, ask for a bargain bucket and it arrives without the chicken that is pants and you would complain. Same with a lot of the matches we paid for, especially under MacMoses, paid for football and didnt get it.
You try and get a balanced view out of performances like Citeh x 2, Watford away, Sheff Utd away, Reading away, Notts County.
Bernie put those views, perhaps too strongly at times but it doesnt make him wrong. Having been in the wrong places I have not had chance to listen to the new commentary team other than the last couple of minutes against Fulham so I am not going to run them down.
I cannot understand why Mr Lamb thinks it is better not to reduce prices for the games. He tells us that the crowd dropped by 5000 after reducing prices against Charlton last season. If 5000 more fans are encouraged to come to the game isn't that 5000 times their ticket price worth of income that the club would otherwise not receive?
The problem is that having charged the season ticket holders full price (discounted I agree) it then is a further kick in the teeth to these fans who stump up early to see others being allowed to watch for less.
Do your sums again Mr Lamb, reduce prices and season tickets and watch the increases in revenue from programmes, shirts etc. together with the associated improvement in atmosphere created. We all want the atmosphere to be as it was in the European quarter and semi finals
**AV writes: Also, the Charlton experiment was declared a failure because those who turned up cheaply did not come back to the next game even though it was a juicy one. Isn't that proof though that putting the prices back up for the next game was the disincentive?
The Bernie issue may generate some heat but it's a sideshow.
Well, here's the dilemma for MFC; Ian Gill never said truer words when he said that we all love Boro - and, of course, The Count is included in that with Gibbo. But many - if not most - have fallen out with MFC.
The Count (and doubtless Gibbo) are still in love with MFC too - and you'd expect nothing less. But it puts him in a poor position to hear and respond to what fans are saying and doing unless he takes the rose-tinted's off and has a good hard look at that object of his affection through a fans eyes.
The falling out has been well documented over many months on this blog and elsewhere. Like many such disenchantments it wasn't one big thing but the drip-drip corrosion of many things.
All of these gave the impression that whatever is said about the club belonging to the town and the fans that a very distilled form of 'representative democracy' was being practised.
The Count (or indeed Gibbo) might have said, "It's one man, one vote - and I'm that one man!" The corollary being that you can like it or lump it and that's been the impression given and taken - intended or not.
Many have responded to that by voting with their feet and not turning up to the Riverside.
Once the exodus has got into full swing, halting it and then reversing it is not easy and won't be quick. As The Count points out himself, customers are fickle things - particularly those with restricted disposable income or more disposable income but many more calls on it.
Even the relatively well off take a gulp at funding themselves plus a child or two for a match and the surrounding travel, eats etc.
If you let the repeat business slide and they get out of the habit and get into something else then you have to work hard to get them back in.
Of course the state of the love of our life, Boro, on the pitch hasn't helped either but it also follows that getting the fans back isn't just about what is on the pitch either, though that's a basic requirement.
There are signs that the product on the pitch is getting better - long may it continue - and this will, on a slow burn, bring people back in.
But on its own it won't do the biz. MFC has to change what it does too, to be responsive and make the whole package attractive to people and seem good value for their money.
The Count and Gibbo clearly have the capability to grasp this and act on it but they have to accept the truth of the problem first and I'm not sure they do yet.
I agree with Keith Lamb when he refers to the negative attitude of Bernie Slaven.
For me Bernie is a bitter ex-footballer who's attitude probably stems from the fact that for all the goals he scored for the Boro and the so-called legendary status he attained , he just missed out on the big money that most footballers even average ones get now.
If anyone out there remembers when Middlesbrough played Manchester City in 2003 away from home and won 1-0 when they had absolutely battered us and I believe we didnt even get a corner......they will understand the true nature of this so called fan , he crossed a line that day by being gutted that we had won 1-0 , he was going bananas at the chances that City were missing and when Boro finally won he couldnt hide his disappointment.
I contacted Centruy radio and I believe others did to protest my disgust at his commentary. In my opinion he is not a true fan , I dont think he truly wants the club to do well , he is a pretender and I for one will not miss his negative opinions at all.
Its a shame that Lambie has resorted to this attack. Its hardly a professional image is it?
I admit i am not a season ticket holder and I rarely attend games. However I always used to listen to Century's coverage of the matches.
I cant get away with the new coverage, and because I cannot afford to go to matches I am relying on other sources to understand how boro play.
Its time for Lambie and Bernie to bury the hatchet, preferably not in each other. This silly war on words only has one outcome and thats a bad reputation for Middlesbrough FC.
Bernie needs to learn to be a little more objective and critiscise accordingly, although I do find myself agreeing with a majority of his views, and Mr Lamb should be representing the clubs best interests and portraying a professional image and quite frankly I dont see this little playground spat/interview as doing either.
"**AV writes: Also, the Charlton experiment was declared a failure because those who turned up cheaply did not come back to the next game even though it was a juicy one. Isn't that proof though that putting the prices back up for the next game was the disincentive?"
Correct, Lamb thinks marketting is as simple as reduce the tickets for one game then expect them to stay when the prices go back up.
Surely from past experiences of lower ticket prices experiments that the current prices are too high. Clearly Lamb sees it as something he will only do if he has to. And once the prices go back up he can point his finger and say look it didnt work as none stayed.
Just look at how many home defeats we have had in last 3 seasons to see that it is over priced.
I thought Keith Lamb's comments were great.
Being a Boro exile, I regularly look at the mfc website for news. While it is a good site, it is bland, produced by marketing folk - no straight-talking, no controversy. In contrast, he pulled no punches - frank, outspoken, even a touch of 'industrial language'!
He's right - this is a golden age for Boro. In over 40 years as a fan, apart from Jackie Charlton's reign, there had been almost nothing to cheer and ample disaster. Back in the 60s, after 15 years out of Div 1, I could barely imagine Boro having a sustained period at the top. The last 10 years have been beyond whatever wild dreams we had when the Ayresome gates were locked.
He obviously burns with ambition but, as he says, it has to be tempered with reality (ask Leeds). Equally obviously, he is frustrated at the poor attendances.
As an exile who gets to far more away matches than home games, one observation I would make is that the Riverside is one of the more painful grounds to get in and out of. Very difficult to find somewhere to park and a long trek to the ground. Afterwards, a long, slow slog and crush through the railway tunnel then it takes anything up to an hour to get out of the car park - no fun when you've still got a 4-hour drive ahead of you.
It needs looking at because Boro can't afford to make it so difficult (as well as pricey) for people to come to a game.
We know there is more than one issue that leads to the undermining of the "feel good factor", which in turn leads to falling attendances.
For me the big three issues are in order of importance are; 1 Pricing of season and matchday tickets but more importantly how they are structured.
2. Availability of live on television home matches across the whole of Teesside.
3. The environment, access, ie non-existent integrated public transport in and around the ground etc.
I can not believe the subject of live home matches in the pubs and clubs on Teesside has not been discussed, either in the interview with K.L., or in this Blog.
This issue has inevitably got to impact on the issue of ticket pricing and it's structure. This is the volatile cocktail that is causing so much damage to matchday attendances, which impacts on the players, undermines the product and the loyal live support.
We have a very worrying downward spiral in the feel good factor but the biggest worry is that K.L. does not know why. Every time he speaks he reveals just how disconnected from the fans he really is, and in denial of the fact that unsustainable, unjust pricing leads to a fall off in demand and an increase in supply.
Cutting prices is the only option and it has proven to work, something he clearly demonstrates in the denial of Blackburn's actual experience.
For the record, in terms of the product on the pitch, I have never felt more optimistic in my lifelong (45 years) as a Boro fan.
**AV writes: This blog has discussed live TV football and the impact on gates so often that when I venture there again now I am sure some people grumble: "Another bloody repeat."
Its good to see Keith Lamb engaging in some PR work, he is absolutley right when he says we tend to take for granted what the club has achieved.
I also believe that attendances and increasing them is a simple issue. It has nothing to do with access and little to do with ticket prices, its down to how good the team are to watch. If Boro continue to play exciting football we will win a lot more than we lose and the fans will come and watch.
What Boro need to do now is engage in an open way with the fans and listen to the gripes, because more than anything people who have a gripe want to be heard, they don't necessarily want a solution.
I agree with Lamb regarding Bernie, he was a great player but is a poor pundit, mind you the media is full of poor pundits. Sadly because of his status people listen to Bernie.
'It's the highest profile organisation on Teesside and the only world class organisation that we have in the town'
Why then has the club bought into the small town in Europe mentality?
Why not have the walk up price closer to the season ticket matchday price or even the same? People are being punished for not having the resources to pay up front.
The incentive for my season ticket is prestige,guarenteed seat and priority for cup games. Looking on the message boards of most clubs, the biggest complaint is admission prices while players are evermore greedy and demanding. As in all walks of life money talks.
Mickymac - what you say makes sense, so thats probably the reason why is it not club policy.
Lamb for some reason believes that a mythical walk up crowd of thousands is just a few good on the pitch performances away.
However as has been discussed in blogs of old, there are numerous reasons for the dwidling crowds and until at least a few of these are addressed the avaerage crowd will continue to be about 25000
I now know why I was accused of asking a negative question last night at the fans forum ! Didnt realise there was a war going on and MFC were on the attack.
I am a current season ticket holder and have been going to Boro with my dad since 1966/67 season.
I make a lot of financial sacrifices to pay up front for my season ticket and don't see why the boro should have the "price drop promotions" to get the crowds in.
I would rather go to the game than sit in one of the 60 local pubs that regularly show Boro games on TV. I am a TRUE Boro supporter and not one of the Big Time Charlies who go when they feel like it.
Rather strange how those people always have supported Boro when it comes to clammering for tickets for the big cup games !
The fans that turned up for the last 3 home games have been brilliant in creating the atmosphere (well done to you all). Maybe the stay away fans are the ones who made more noise by booing rather than supporting the team. Give Gareth a chance, we can all see he is turning it round with a squad that is desperate to fight for each other.
Bernie was one of my heroes, but I did feel that when I listened to some of his comments on Century that he was trying to be too balanced in his opinions (I'll leave it at that).
Finally, I personally do think that the Boro should have reduced the price of the season tickets. I'd rather see 30,000 bringing in the same amount of revenue than the current 20,000 or so. More people visiting the stadium spend more money at the shop, on food, beer etc. Perhaps Boro missed a big chance to win a lot of the fans around.
Up the Boro - let's prove them all wrong !!
Anth,
If you don't attend games, rely on others and find yourself GENERALLY AGREEING with a majority of what he (Bernie Slaven) says. Isn't that exactly Keith Lamb's point?
Keith Lamb should keep his trap shut. He is just Middlesbrough's very own version of Freddie Shepherd.
There are too many cheap shots coming from the club these days not to mention one PR disaster after another.
Unfortunately Steve Gibson seems to keep shooting himself in the foot a lot these days and has been doing so ever since Eindhoven. His arrogant attitude towards some members of the Teesside public does him no favours. He is no longer "Sir" Steve to a lot of us.
Blaming Slaven is pointless and Gibson and Lamb should ask questions about their own inadequacies rather than trying to blame somebody else.
Keith Lamb said... Yes, take the top four out and we've appeared in more cup finals than any other team since we moved to the Riverside the next team is Leicester who have been in the finals. We've been in five.
LEICESTER WON MORE FINALS THAN THE BORO IN YOUR SELECTIVE 10 YEAR PERIOD, YOU NARNER! :)
Losing finals means nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Small time club, small time mentality. Lamb cannot help himself by patronising fans can he?
Unbelievable!
Alf, your comment that the number of home defeats over the last three years shows its over priced hits the nail on the head. An entertaining Boro who win plenty at home will increase numbers coming through the gate.
All our other moans, gripes etc. will evaporate if the team becomes succesful. I'd take a bet that if we were to finish fourth all the talk of poor access, over priced tickets, lack of consultation and a strip with no stripe would disapear, because we all want the same thing, a succesful football team and we all know that over the past 5/6 years the team has under performed in the league.
This Charlton experiment that is talked about on this Blog makes me laugh.
What is not mentioned is the amount of revenue taken in the Club shop and the concourse refreshment kiosks from the extra 5,000 fans that turned up for that particular game.
It stands to reason that a lot of those fans were probably family groups, where the parents probably spent just as much on 'junk' than they did on tickets.
KL must think we have just fallen off an alien spacecraft - it dosen't take a rocket scientist to work out those basic economics.
Mr Lamb,
With all due respect, ã31 for one ticket for the Newcastle game is too much.
Just some ticket prices from top European clubs for your comparison:
AC Milan...San Siro Stadium. Adult ticket prices from ã7.70 granted this excludes Roma, Inter, Juventus games.
Schalke 04...Veltins Arena. Adult ticket prices from ã10.50 (Standing from ã6.30)
Barcelona...Nou Camp. 19 home games: Prices to members of the public are: (1x Category A* ã51 v. Real Madrid) (4x CatB ã28) (6x CatC ã21) (4x CatD ã12). 20% discount on these prices are given to members.
(Prices from official club websites).
Pete - It looks like the clubs policy is for attack on and off the pitch!
The Riverside Stazi will be handing out foam hands, pearl drops and approved song sheets to all fans at the next home again.
Woe betide those who don't adhere, next it will be the banning of all but the latest Garmin shirt. Wear one with a white band and you will be looked upon with suspicion.
MFC do not only ask ze questions but have the answers they expect already printed out for you.
AV - Is the rumour that MFC is to be used as a pilot scheme for government ID cards true?
I am furious. I don't agree with everything Bernie Slaven says, but I respect his point of view and believe he is usually right.
What we cannot have is a "yes man" - and taking the live reports from Century to spite him is ridiculous and childish.
Lamb's issue is that he knocks the club from time to time - well so do I - and I have been coming week in week out for over 40 years.
I love the club - but I have a number of gripes about buying tickets, shop opening hours, telephone calls with the most frequently required option at the back of the list to up the cost, etc etc etc.
When I lie on my death bed and contemplate the great times I've had following them - Bernie Slaven will figure high on my list of pleasant memories. Keith Lamb will not figure on that list - but Steve Gibson certainly will.
Keith Lamb is not the friendly and appreciative soul he used to be. The taciturn comments he's made about Bernie belie an egotistical personality...and I think Keith's aggressive and intemperate language in his interview tends to support that view.
Bernie and Ally's radio shows on Century were amongst the most entertaining in the country...even my wife Celia who is from Kent used to thoroughly enjoy listening to Bernie's banter with Ally and the fans.
The radio show helped to produce an atmosphere in which we could all have a fond laugh at the comments thrown about. Keith and his cohorts appear to be involved in commercial suppression which is a great shame. I do hope Century are invited back into the fold to hold their own as equals in the great and shared partnership of supporting Boro.
Any decent football club is just one big family, and all family members should be encouraged to have their own points of view and interpretations on matters at hand.
It does no one any good by blowing out the (sometimes frenzied but always passionate)light of dissension and criticism because no one can find their way in the dark....it also belittles the club.
This club is not the same respectful and friendly club it used to be towards its fans if the senior officials I've met recently (George Cooke not counted here) are anything to go by. I've brought wonderful initiatives to the club recently and never even had a plain and simple thank you for the huge efforts I've made. This club is in serious trouble I fear.
Yours sincerely,
Robin Mitton
Managing Director
FOOTBALL FOR NATIONS Ltd
www.mikedelaneysoccer.com
the club have become too big for their boots & are hiding behind fortuous european adventures.
As an Ayresome Park season ticket holder I have seen both ends of the spectrum.Yes it was what we have dreamt of all our lives but what has happened?we are treat as customers & not fans.
The day i flew out on holiday I tried to buy a ticket for Blackburn but was told they werent on sale & i couldnt reserve one.I came home the day of the game too late to purchase a ticket.The club dont put the fans first so they cant expect us to reciprocate
I have never encountered any "product" (good or service requiring outlay of money) with the amount of publicly expressed negativity as was found in Slaven's
broadcasts.
Imagine a new model Ford car. Every day, a 60 second ad is repeated five times about the various positive attributes of the car (low petrol use, good acceleration, etc).
And, also every day, a 60 second ad is repeated five times
a day saying that the car is slow, poorly made by people who don't care, and is constructed with shoddy materials.
Would the positive ads counter-balance the negative ads? Not a chance - the car would be lucky to sell ten, let alone 10,000.
The number one factor regarding attendances at the boro is price (always has been and probably always will be).
Other factors are of course the entertainment of the football which has been at best poor for the last few years, access to the ground which is a hike through wasteland or an hours delay getting out of an unofficial car park, prawn sandwich brigade these people who go to the game on free tickets, think the club call it corporate hospitality, games on illegal tv channels shown in local pubs ( why are the police not closing these places down?) and of course the ticket fiasco for big games, and attitudes of some stewarding has been questioned.
A ticket for the last game ã31, a gallon of beer a takeaway and still change left and of course watch the game for free in a local pub.
Robin Mitton
No surprise there. dont get Powls on the subject of 'Not Invented Here Syndrome'.
I will repeat an example of the clubs communication and PR, for those who have heard it before, look away now but it is worth repeating.
I was off to watch Boro at the Baggies a couple of seasons ago and my Baggie mate got the tickets from WBA before they were on sale at MFC. He phoned me up to say they said a Sat 3.00pm kick off. As we were in Europe on the Thursday knew it couldnt be right and checked the official times, sure enough Sunday match. E-mailed MFC to say that the tickets had the wrong date and time just in case no one had spotted it so they could warn fans.
Did I get a thank you or we have already noticed it but thanks anyway e-mail. Not a snowballs chance in hell or even less likely my wife stopping buying shoes. The email said 'we would like to point out that it was a Sunday kick off'. Some things in life remain constant and PR at MFC is one of them.
Once again sorry for repeating the story, sure ther are many more.
Some raw nerves have been touched recently, and a fairly realistic debate has followed, although the blinkers haven't been put away yet.
Briefly, I have always been puzzled as to how Bernie got elevated to 'Legend' status, apart from possibly being the only ex Boro player willing to do a limp TV programme in front of hysterical Geordies.
And I saw a great many of his performances, especially away, with my daughter - 8 at the time - being a great fan of his. Useful, a minor character, yes; legendary, well, not compared with the abundance of super talent there's been at Boro over the years, including the many who never seem to get a mention (what happened to the truly great Darren Wood, who would walk into most premiership sides now, not least at Boro ?)
But I heard a few of his radio commentaries, and thought his views coincided with mine, and I'm sure, not a few other Boro fans. Messrs Gibson, Lamb, and especially, McClaren did get the stick they deserved (though Gibson deserves the praise he has received).
The chairman helped put the skids under the current Boro by persevering too long with Robbo and Big Mac - it's astonishing to think he would have stayed if Sven hadn't gone (or would he ?) And don't forget that Southgate is only here because Venables and O'Neill wouldn't come.
The chairman seems afraid of experienced managers - look at what Danny Wilson is doing at Hartlepool. So Bernie was justified to make his points and the big 2 are foolish to try to palm him off, Boro supporters just aren't that stupid.
Gibson was right, Southgate got a poisoned chalice and , at times, looked as if he was making the traditional Boro mistakes, last season. But he could be great, and certainly there were signs last season of the changing mentality.
The squad is certainly well rounded now, apart from, having had a surplus of underperforming strikers, there could be a problem if one or two are missing, so think defence, Gareth. But there's a ring of quality throughout the team, now, possibly, as some here have commented, the best yet. But oh for a Juninho AND Ravanelli, now !
As for the blinkers, Boro spent ã11million, not ã23, and Southgate said it was all they could afford - no wonder after McClaren. How much will be in the kitty in January ? Get those pirate pubs shut down.
I agree with lambs opinion of slaven . Slavens comments on my football club are always negative to the extreme. For one i am happy i do not have to listen to him on boro s commentary although Ali will be sadly missed.
''i don't agree with everything bernie says... but believe he is generally right.'' make sense of that.
the man is a worse sulker than anelka. play me on the wing? i'm not playing! sub me? i'll be out of the ground and shopping before the final whistle. i am sorry for ally but bernie, for reasons of his own, hated boro being better now than his era.
as for crowds, we only really have had a hard core of 25000 since the 60's. the stadium should never have been extended for the pot hunters.
"I don't want people to come and support us just because we are successful. I want people to support us to MAKE us successful."
I suspect that there are people that want to help make the club successful but can't afford it.
On the other hand, there are enough people that can afford to go, as shown in previous seasons, but they are the type of fans that want entertaining.
They don't go to support the team, they go to be entertained. That's why attendances are dropping. When success comes they will come flocking back.
I am going to be shot here ,so watching the boro in the pub "having a gallon of beer and a chinese ",its still cheaper than going to the game with my kids, cost over 100 quid (on my budget no chance) ...give us a break kl and all the fans will be back ,say 20 quid a game.
I think its an insult to all fans for keith lamb to think that the people who don't attend matches are not going because of bernie slavens views !
Does he think that the fans cant think for themselves!
The fans will only go if they get value for their hard earned money !What scares Lamb is the fact that fans are voting with their feet! I for one am sick of lamb and his rose tinted glasses.
The club appoint managers with no experiance -robson, mclaren, southgate then tell the fans they have to be patient while they gain experiance!
I wouldnt expect to pay top price for a trainee to carry work out on my house or car so why should i pay full price for someone learning their trade in football management!
Face facts the football played over the last few years has been dire ! Its ok for him he does'nt have to pay to get in !
Mr Lamb was incisive when he pointed out that TV money will eventually subsidise the live event. It is obvious that this phenomenon is happening so why haven't the Club accepted the facts and taken action to balance the extra cash coming from TV revenue with financial inducements to keep people coming to the matches?
They don't seem to have realised that its the same people who buy the matchday tickets who also subscribe to Sky / Virgin / Setanta / other PPV. As the breadth and depth of football coverage improves with these services, they are suddenly in a situation where they are in direct competition for access to the pockets of the average Boro supporter.
I'm afraid that sexy football and modest success will not change the hard economic facts. As Dave Allen once told me when I asked him about ticket pricing decisions "Don't be naive.....its all about market forces"
Well who's being naive now Dave?
Martin Hall,
You suggest that just because you go to all the games that you are a "true supporter" and people like me are "big time charlies" because we can't afford to go to all the games.
I have been a season ticket holder since I was 15 but now can't afford to go, but to suggest that I aint a true supporter because I can't afford to go is utter rubbish.
Boro will always struggle to get back to 30,000 plus crowds because there was'nt 30,000 plus fans in the first place who were prepared to go to the games when the games were cheap. Thousands just jumped on the bandwagon when we built the new stadium and signed the big names etc, but when they realised that supporting Boro was'nt all it made out to be they soon disapeared.
The real supporters will always be there (if they can afford) regardless of how Boro play because it is in our blood and there is nothing we can do about it.
once upon a time owning a season ticket and working shifts etc. was o.k. as there was always someone to buy tickets for games you couldn't make but Mr Macs brand of football soon changed all that!
Would it be too much to ask to have cash turnstiles at the riverside to attract back the casual fan?,urely this would add numbers to the gate. I for one cannot see why we have to buy well in advance or arrive at the ground 2hrs early to queue for a ticket.
Bernie has a right to be annoyed that he missed the cut for ridiculous wages that these idiots do not deserve. I also prefer him to Alistair Brownlee who, with the mic away from him, is far more aloof and arrogant than Mr Slaven.
Lee- save the lecture. Marty Hall did not claim he was superior as he went to games so I suggest you re-read his input.
Ian Gill- yes, Boro PR is awful. It's amazing the attitudes they have, especially the ones who thinks working there gives them an automatic right to look down on the rest of us with no good reason to do so.
I do believe K Lamb is 100% for the club as I am I also believe Bernie is 100% for the club.
The problem is that people always believe in Burnie's comments which is understandable due to the fact more people listen to him than anyone elses so my point is Mr Lamb why not try and get B Slaven on our side .
If we are playing atractive football which at this moment in time we are, then maybe it's time B Slaven had a few good words for us.
Rmoving them from the radio was a bad move. Give him something good to talk about then if he does then thats fine but if he does not then he is not a true fan.
We must take the good with the bad but most of all we must stand by our Club.
i am going to be a bit two faced on this one.
yes, bernie is a moaning get who always looks for the worse and who encouarges the chicken run moaners on the legends and dont give praise for where we have come from in div 3 when he was playing which is a FANTASTIC! achevment so you can't blame the club getting a bit of a cob on and snap back at the most public misery.
BUT the club have to take there share of the blame for the feel bad factor to. ask any boro fan, even ra-ras will tell you there are things that are not right like poor football at home last five years, knocking off the last half dozen games every year, buying duds, PR, prices to high, gestapo stewards, club shop and all that is down to GS and KL not some bloke on the wireless.
and what is all this "either for us or against us" stuff? have they decided that season tickets are for and the rest are the enemy? like how will that attitude get bums on seats?
and one more thing. dirty washing should not be done in public, it gives amminition to th epress to beat us. KL and SG should have the sense to keep it behind closed doors.
sorry if this is too long
Another reason for lower crowds is kick off times, bus services after 6pm and on a Sunday on Middlesbrough are abysmal.
Fans leaders are to complain to the Premier League about the death of the traditional Saturday 3pm kick-offs.
On October 6 only one of 10 Premier League games will start at 3pm. The only other Saturday game kicks off at 12.45pm with eight matches taking place the following day.
Malcolm Clarke, chairman of the Football Supporters' Federation, said: "It will be a dark weekend for fans."
**AV writes: I think the horse has bolted on that one. The time to make a stand was a five years ago when Sky started taking more than the established one game on Sunday and one on Monday.
I was talking to a Leeds Utd fan who said it was terrible to see so many empty seats at the Riverside on MOTD. I asked if he would be watching the England game on Saturday and he said 'I'm not watching that crap'.
He didn't realise that's exactly why fans are staying away from the Boro. The football wasn't worth watching under Mac and England are now suffering the same fate.
Improvement on the pitch will steadily bring the fans back. Access has always been poor, PR and marketing have always been poor, Bernie has always moaned etc but when the football is worth watching these things seem less important.
If we continue playing well people will want to come. However I do think it was a knee jerk reaction to fill the corners in at the Riverside and we'll always struggle to reach capacity.
Steve Gibson said âÂÂI want you to go out and drag those in who should be here.âÂ?
I think he has to realise that no one has to be at the Riverside on match day. Freedom of choice is thankfully still available to us, when the Riverside Stazi take over the town and march us all down to the ground then SG can drag in who he likes.
Until then SG has to accept that some poor decisions from the MFC hierarchy have alienated a large section of supporters.
A few well meaning media articles will not change fans feelings of mistrust and been taken for granted by MFC
It appears the club are waking up to the fact the fans are not happy. They have sleepwalked into this situation over several years. Now Gibson and Lamb are coming out of their bunkers and finding the troops have melted away.
At the start of this blog I said I dont have an issue with what Lamb said. I dont necessarily agree with all of it and several areas werent covered but at least the club are trying to communicate in a joined up fashion.
Rebuilding the fan base may take some time, a good result at West Ham would be a boost before the visit of the Mackems. A good performance then will get the fans talking and we may start getting a drift back of fans.
Failure to put in a shift will reinforce the stay aways belief that we are the same old Boro. More PR gaffes will have the same effect. A consistent, positive message is needed both on and off the pitch. I have more faith in Gate and the players than the MFC body corporate.
They still don't seem to understand that Steve McLaren's brand of spin and negative football drove the fans away (me inlcuded) and it takes a lot to bring them back.
If we contiue to play good football with attractive, young, hungry players, then the fans will return. It isn't rocket science, but Lamb and Gibson really seemed blinded to the supporters 'dislike' of McLaren and all that he represented.
In our Uefa cup seasons all those games televised, sunday kick offs and resting players in the league games has cost the club in season ticket sales.
You can not move game around and not take the league games seriously and expect season ticekt holders to hang around. Happened last season when he rested players against Man City and we lost at home.
davidt,
Yes I rarely attend games, I read a lot online and in the local and national press about Boro's performance. So I take an oppinion based on several reports, and yet I still generally agree with Slaven.
I am not saying he is 100% correct, but I still think that mr lambs attack on Slaven is doing nothing to promote the image of Middlesbrough FC. Its all really swings and roundabouts.
The club must start listening to fans instead of trying to dictate what we can say about the club.
The only way fans will ever get their message across to the hierarchy (at any club) is to have an elected Supporters Representative on the Board.
I believe this does happen at some clubs.
Fans would have an 'official' avenue to air their views.
However, with the Masonic type regime they run at Boro, a suggestion like this would probably fall on extremely deaf ears.
In fact, there should be two elected members, one from the Offical Supporters Club and the other to represent everyone else (my category).
I know - you are all just picking yourselves up off the floor after this side splitting suggestion.
However, until the Club bring their Management Style into this Century, there will continue to be Blogs like this in existence.
The next game in the league is always an important one, but if we get a draw or win at West Ham then that will create a bit of a buzz ahead of Sunderland and if we win that one then we'll all start to get a bit excited.
If by Christmas we are in a top eight position then I would expect to see the average crowd size starting to creep up.
As Ian Gill says it will not happen overnight.
That said I think its a good thing that Lamb and SG are launching a PR offensive, but the real PR is done by the players on the pitch.
One other thought Keith Lamb in his role as chief exec. is the focus of most fans discontent, with Steve Gibson and are Gareth Southgate generally applauded for what they are doing.
It is worth remembering that Lamb works for Steve Gibson and as he has been there for so long Gibson clearly thinks he is good at it and maybe on the whole he is.
Certainly PR is his big weakness but he has negotiated some good deals over the years and must have played a pivotal role in the clubs development.
Given Gibsons success in business it is fair to assume he can judge when a man is doing a good job or not. I think it reflects well on Boro that our source of frustration is focused on one individual who is neither the club owner or the team manager.
I think there are many on here who represent the thousands of conditional Boro fans who desperately look to conjure up new excuses and conditions to add to the litany of lamentations that they demand to be addressed, before they even remotely contemplate returning to the Riverside.
Many of the issues apply to other clubs, especially our bitter rivals up the road, and the contrast in commitment and passion is stark for all to see.
I think the issue of K.O. times is debatable; for instance, our lowest attendance for P.L. games has just been recorded, at last Saturdays 3 p.m. K.O.
I think the charge of boring and negative football over recent years is also a moot point, and is wearing a bit thin, dare I say becoming boring.
In Mc Laren's last season we drew with Spurs 3-3, beat Bolton 4-3, Fulham 3-2, Geordies 1-0, Arsenal 2-1, Man Utd 4-1 ,
the champions Chelsea 3-0 and then we had the "boring" UEFA CUP games.
The roll of rationalised reasons is never ending but the unpalatible truth for many is that the club is also saddled with the millstone of followers, who are morose, miserable, lazy, passionless and disengenuous.
Some contributors on this board reflect, and to some extent represent that culture that sees ex ST holders, fed up of" boring football", gleefully march into the bar rooms and lounges on a matchday, resplendent in their Boro atire, in apparent masochistic mode, for their session supporting soporiphic Boro. And ironies of all ironies, on your return from the match, you are treated to a review of the game and as to how well the Boro had played.
In other words, the issue of repatriating the disappeared is not a black and white issue(as many on here would have you believe), of restoring so called entertaining football to the Riverside. Many that have abondoned the match day experience will never return, because, quite simply they will never be satisfied, always moaning and whingeing about anything and everything.
Chris - good post, however one other way is to do what many fans are doing now, vote with their feet.
The low crowd against Brum seems to have concentrated the minds of Gibson and Lamb.
Both however fail to see that the cost of going to a game is an issue for most fans.
It was also dissapointing, but no suprise to see that the real reason for dropping the white band was because of falling shirts sales.
MFC need to realise that most fans have only so much disopable income, trying to screw them for every penny is not going to entice them back.
âÂÂThe cups are our realistic opportunity, but we have set standards. We have won a Carling Cup, we have had two runs in Europe and our highest ever position, seventh, in the Premier League."
How many more times are Steve Gibson and co going to trot out the we won the Carling Cup line. You dont see Swindon QPR and Oxford fans saying , you should come and support us because we won the Carling Cup do you?
Due to the high cost of footy these days I am now well out of the habit and I spend my season ticket money on a golf season ticket which I can use almost any day of the year instead of "investing it " to subsidise the wages of obscenely paid sportsmen.
For me, the bubble burst with football a few years back and though I follow Boros results , I couldn't give a fig about supporting these overpaid clowns who masquerade as footballers these days.
FORE!
I said, before the Riverside was built, that the stadium should be a large capacity with cheap tickets. The "real" fans in Teesside cannot afford the prices that they are being charged, but, a large stadium with cheap tickets throughout would attract far more fans, even if the football was poor and even if attendance was only due to loyalty.
How many fans in the past have decided against paying to see a match because they knew it would be boring and they could ill afford to spend that sort of cash on something so unpredictable as the Boro (as opposed to the predictability of their children needing food in their bellies)? But, cheap tickets would sell, as the average fan would see that as worth the risk.
I have stated in the past (on this blog) the real reasons I believe the club have kept the price of tickets high and therefore prohibitive to many fans, so I won't go into that.
But, part of the reason we are losing fans now is because those that we are losing are the ones attracted by the shiny new Riverside Stadium and who, incidentally, replaced the ordinary working class fan who could no longer afford to attend matches.
You know, the Marton Happy Clappers! The ones who were attracted to the glitz and glamour of the new stadium, Juninho, Ravenelli et al. The ones who foam hand were created for and the stupid and infuriating clapping along like performing sea lions to pig bag.
Also when we get a goal, what do we get now? Chelsea (!!) Dagger by the Fratellis! Now, how many real fans from Ayresome Park would have wanted this mindless fluff?
It's so obvious that all this rubbish was aimed at the middle class idiots out there. And now, they are the ones deserting the Boro. Are they going to come back? Well, the new stadium isn't new any more; it has lost its novelty. So, what about the real fans? How about getting them back in? Oh, the ones priced out and alienated by the club?
Another thing, Keith Lamb, you say that you are Steve Gibson are only custodians of the club and the town and the fans are the real owners. If that is really true, why do you never give a toss what the fans want? We wanted to keep the white band on the shirt and what happened? We were NOT consulted on the poorly designed new club badge. We want a new football kit maker.
I could go on, but why bother? The club is run like a totalitarian dictatorship; they don't really care what we fans want. In a totalitarian dictatorship, they keep reminding you how everything is done for "your best interest". Countries under this sort of regime always protest that they are democratic (The Former East Germany called GDR; German Democratic Republic). Oh yeah, the Stasi were really democratic, weren't they?
One person on this blog wrote:
""As far as this club is concerned you are either with us or against us. I'm looking for people who are with us and those who are against us need to be identified"" Keith Lamb.
"That is possibly the most sinister, paranoid and threatening thing I have ever heard coming out of a football club. Watch out for them recruiting their secret police soon."
Hmmmm, what was I just saying about totalitarian dictatorships?
Here's one last thought for you. Totalitarian dictatorships love their surveillance. After all, they need it to keep themselves one step ahead of the plebs they control. They love to use things such as ID cards, even better, those with chips in them. One such as an RFID chip............... oh dear!!!!!!! What do those new season tickets (cards) contain?
Most companies work hard at communicating with their customers and developing a relationship. In particular, they want to understand 'buying behaviour'. If sales fall, they focus on getting to the bottom of the 'non-buying behaviour' through surveys, focus groups, market research questionnaires, etc.
What have Boro done in their crisis? In contrast, they maintain little or no meaningful dialogue with fans and have carried out (to the best of my knowledge) no research into the dwindling support.
Keith Lamb's evaluation of the Charlton experiment is pathetic. Surely if the attendance fell again for the following (full price) match, that is telling you something very different to the conclusion that the experiment failed.
Glib statements like 'it's been proved' are nonsense. What he's talking about is amateurish interpretation not anything remotely like a marketeer would regard as 'proof'.
Stop indulging in the speculation and gossip that most of us do down the pub. As long as the club rely on supposition instead of the kind of commercial research and analysis that any professional company would undertake, they will never get to the bottom of the disenchantment.
This fan can give the club some considered feedback. I went to the Wigan game - at ã15 I thought it was good value for money. I was wrong. Even at ã15, I will think twice about going again. At ã31 - no chance!
Tosh - strong words but I agree that some fans have disapeared never to return. What we have today like it or not is a fan base split between those that follow their team on TV and some who follow their team by going to the Riverside to watch.
I don't accept the arguement that prices are too high because a few seasons ago when the Riverside was a season ticket sell out prices were higher (given inflation since). Also when Boro sell tickets for cup games at a tenner a shot no one turns up to watch.
Where I disagree with you is the entertainment factor, in your post you mention last seasons 1-0 win over the barcodes. Well that was a dreadful game of football, while it was great to win it wasn't fun to watch. Where as this season the 2-2 draw was great entertainment and gave optimism for the rest of the season.
We have a problem on Teesside with a negative attitude to the football club which drives me barmy, but I can see where it comes from.
For 100 years Boro failed to win anything and any success ultimatley turned to disaster, how many years did it take us to get past the 6th round of the FA cup? So fans have built up a defence mechanism which manifests itself as a negative "we will never succeed the club management are cr@p" mentality.
Changing such a culture takes years and the last 5/6 years of conservative league football have not helped.
Times are changing GS has/is creating what I think may be a legendary Boro team, that will bring the fans back to watch.
So many excuses for not going...too dear, boring etc etc.The Premier league has never been consistently attractive to watch whether its Boro, Chelsea or anyone else and it remains expensive, but people make choices.
Perhaps I'm lucky (or unlucky) as I've been a season ticket holder for about 20 years and I get as angry as the rest, until the next game.
I'jj retire in afew years & money will tight so I might have to change my priorities...thats a choice I'll have to make.
I defy anyone who genuinely supports Boro through the good times and the bad times not to say that since Steve Gibson came its mostly been an amazing journey better than anyones wildest hopes. You can't discount the progress even if sometimes it seems to have stopped.
To put it into some kind of context, Boro had about 23000 against Brum,disgraceful in my view, but nevertheless these supporters will turn up again, so infact its about 6000 who are missing.
Going on the the legends programme and this and other blogs, its sound right to think that another 3000 or so will whinge even if we win the league, and European Cup.
In economic terms prices hav'nt increased, so have the missing supporters all lost their jobs (obviously some will have), have they discovered other attractions, or prefer watching it in the pub.
What amazes me most is why Steve Gibson bothers, after all criticism of his staff is the same as having a go at him. Perhaps he should pull out and let Borough find its real level,at best the championship.or local derbies with Pools and Darlo(no disrepect to those splendid clubs).
At least then we could go back to thjat wonderful old argument about who is the biggest club in the area,Boro, Polls or Darlo.
Havnt got time to check this, hope it makes some sense. Cmon Boro
Its not just the pubs where you can watch live football,just click on google and you will find several sites offering live streaming of ANY prem game,now Kl get used to it,as no person wants to or neeeds to spend a small fortune going to watch there team ,be realistic DROP the prices now ......
Ye shall reap what ye shall sow.
So Steve Gibson and Keith Lamb express their concerns that Boro games are shown live in over 60 pubs in the area and blame this for the drop in attendance.
Forgive me but who within the club was responsible last year when the majority of games before Christmas were televised by Sky -- arrangements for which must have been agreed with Sky but conveniently not communicated in advance of the sale of season tickets.
This year there is only one televised Sky home game pre Christmas. Is this because the club have had a change of heart or because like the majority of fans found last year Sky decided that the product was poor entertainment?
After a long consideration I renewed my ticket this year and have really enjoyed the games so far. I was especially pleased by the sheer effort of all the players (bar one and he has gone)in the game against Newcastle and the speed ,skill and committment by everone in the Birmingham game.
Looking around the ground it is evident that the discontent within the area extends to the Director's box and corporate entertainers with their reserved ares showing the biggest gaps. Can Keith Lamb explain this? As a PR initiative why doesn't the club invite a number of season ticket holders to sit in these areas.
As to the club's PR. 10 positive events are necessary to counter 1 negative story. The club have a long haul to recovery on their plate before the missing fans return.
Many positive ideas have been put forward in this site -- response to date -- apart from slagging off the missing fans is zero.
The cost of going to the games is now too high for a familty man with kids, over ã100 per home game, to see mediocre performances, is no longer within most peoples reach. We live under a Labour government remember!!!
Removing the voice of negative Bernie and Century Radio has only given the fans something else to moan about.
Bernie is entitled to his oppions, but to remove him and Ali because of critism shows the contempt of KL and SG of the fans. Can't control the thoughts, remove them.
Also the commentary on Radio Tees is dire, I didn't even realise that the boro had scored against Brum, as they were about as excited as a wet fart! We need passionate fans, not lightweight nobodies to tell them how it is.
The change to the badge and dropping the iconic stripe, has also aliianated the fans, already disillusioned after the Mac years and the under achievements all rwrapped up in the Carling Cup/Uefa Cup runs
Keith Lamb should stick to what he is supposedly good at and leave the PR to professionals, though after some of the comments coming out of MFC lately, they don't have a PR dept and KL is the real "foot in mouth" expert. With us or against us, them and us.... shut up KL
Boro need to start improving on the pitch, win some games, bring back some excitement and the fans will come back, but again it's a choice the fans have and at the moment they are ignoring the Boro, regardless of SG and KL.
People will pay hard earned money, when they get to see what they expect, not what the SG and KL are telling us we are going to see.
AS A BORO FAN IN EXILE,I STILL LIVE AND BREATHE THE BORO, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE ITS IN YOUR BLOOD FOR LIFE.
THE RUBBISH THAT MAC IS SERVING UP FOR ENGLAND IS HIS BORO CAREER ON A WORLD STAGE. THE GATE IS TURNING IT AROUND, BUT ALL THE SPIN THATS COME OUT OF THE RIVERSIDE OVER THE YEARS DOES GIVE YOU A FEELING OF"HERE WE GO AGAIN" WHEN YOU PAY BIG MONEY AND ALL YOUR SERVED UP IS A HALF HEARTED PERFORMANCE,IT STARTS TO GRATE. I
THINK WE HAVE GOT A TEAM NOW THAT IS HUNGRY AND A MANAGER WHO IS LISTENING,I CAN NEVER SLAG STE GIBSON, THE FELLA IS MIDDLESBROUGH FOOTBALL CLUB!!
Everyone seems to have forgotten Lambs gaffes, the three we know about but what about others?
If it wasn't for the loss of three points in 96/97 who knows where Robson, Juninho, Ravenelli and Emerson may have taken us. Then there was the Ziege fiasco....and McClaren on Century.
Lamb blames everyone else for the clubs ailments but himself, what number is his car parking spot on a Saturday ...No1, whilst Super Stevie Gibson doesn't even park in the players car park. He is getting too big for his boots
(Daren't give my proper name in case he sends out the "Season Ticket" police and cancels my expensive gold card.
Harry
Harry - we didn't go down in 97 because of the three points gaffe. It was more to do with rubbish performances in the league.
Something bad happened and we should look in our own backyard first instead of trying to find excuses for it. The situation is well over anyway and you really should move on.
Keith Lamb has had a lot to do with the continued growth and relative success of this club. As I said earlier, nobody else could do the job better.
Let's focus on the many great things he has done for Boro instead of the odd mistake. There isn't a person alive who has never made a mistake at work.
He's an easy target and it's unfair.
Get behind the club!
Bernie and Allister,
I enjoyed them immensely and will miss their vibrancy.
I watched Bernie play and sometimes his on air comments smacked of 'I have forgot that even I had bad hair days'
Having said that there was never any doubt he was 100%+ Boro both in is playing days and football pundit.
His comments truely refleccted the Boro fans thoughts and concerns and in any case Allister was the perfect foil.
I recently came home from China and listened to the BBC commentry and it is non league in comparison to Century.
Keith Lamb is also Boro through and through and has some tough decisions to make, they may not be always liked but then that is life.
My only dissapointment is that Allister and Bernie always seemed part of the Boro infracture and in a way they have departed like the missing fans.
PS I was at every game in the old third division and also the other time - Big John Hickton era. Oh for that passion once again in the game.
On to other things, I see that Nicklas Bendtner has had a bust up with Wenger, Boro should try to sign him on Jan 1st.
Don't know how KL can blame Bernie for damaging the club. All Bernie is doing is saying how he see's it from a fan's point of view, and 95% of the time he is right.
If KL had been working for anyone else other than SG he would of been sacked by now. He needs to accept the criticism and stop trying to pass the buck onto someone else due to his own gaffes.
Is he Ken Bates in disguise?
A simple question.
What if the fans dont want to turn up? Cant make them, no point is having us and them, for us or against us. Life doesnt work like that, nor does entertainment.
We are saying what I feared, as posted above it takes many good points to counter one bad point. At the point let the football do the talking and make sure the messages out of the club are considered and consistent.
Oddly, I posted several years ago about the secret police and was howled down by the foam hand brigade. The high handed approach will always come back to haunt you. Get too far away from the fans and you will lose them.
Never Happy
You are absolutely right about Bendtnar - he should have been in our sights in the Summer, as I think we both said then.
He, and we, may have been put off by him signing a longer contract with The Gunners but we should strike whilst the iron is hot and be letting Arsenal know of our interest now with a view to negotiating a deal in advance and a signing on January 1.
Was also pleased to see that Alessandro has been told to Pistone off! Maybe that might indicate that the stories about Pogo's recovery going better than expected are accurate.
I acknowledge as I write this that I may just have triggered the jinx of Hurworth!
**AV writes: And you call me for putting the mockers on!
John - As the powers that be at the Riverside, 'are only our custodians of the club', prehaps they might now listen to the fans.
They may not agree with transfer targets that we suggest, however they might at least realise that the next transfer window opens on January 1st.
Also why are Lamb and Gibson saying the club has spent ã23m, doesn't the money they receive from transfers have to be taken from this?
On the plea from the club to take a friend to the Sunderland game.
Most of my mates (some ex season ticket holders) think I am mad for leaving the comfort of the pub, to get a bus (ã4 return), take the route march to the stadium (hopefully it will not be belting down) pay ã31 quid for a ticket and then face the return journey home.
They stay in the pub spend half the amount and miss the pleasures of the underpass.
What fools they are, C'Mon Boro!
Well said Ian Gill but reading much of this blog recently you must be one of the happy clappies since you dare to mention the word entertainment.
Don't you realise that unless you were one of the 6,000 pure fans that used to turn up at Ayresome Park in the dark days then you are not a proper fan so your view doesn't count.
Never mind that your money is the same as anyone elses, you dare to expect to be entertained. Well shame on you!
I am always suprised by the atitude of he diehard, week in, week out fans when it comes to the occasional attendee fans.
It seeems to me that fans are fans - if they make the effort to come to the game then good on'em.
I have never been a season ticket holder but at one time went to more than 50% of home games at Ayrsome.
I now live on the wrong side of the Pennines so mainly see away games. Other fans at the away games assume that my step son and I must be diehards if we've made the trip.
I'll be at the Sunderland game as a treat for Natty's 15th Birthday and we're bringing one of his Blackpool supporting friends with us, I suppose that the "real" fans will say we shouldn;t be there.
As for clapping along to PigBag, I've been to too many games when that has been the highlight of the match not to really enjoy it!
bewarethespin - Prehaps in an attempt to win back the missing hardcore Ayresome Park fans, the club can build a wall for them all to pee up at half time!
Never Happy and Beware the spin
I will pay ã31, set off at 11.00 am for my 280 mile round trip, park on wasteland, eat a poison burger, fight the underpass or the wasteland and get home at 7.30 to 8.00pm. What is more I can get an earful of BBC Tees plus MFC spin on the way back. If I am really lucky my son will sponge a free day as well, he will however sleep all the way up and back down again.
What right have I to want to enjoy the match?
John Powls will be stung in the same way by Phil to travel to West Ham and he is really hoping for a typical, limp awayday.
Since liquidation Middlesbrough Football can be proud of their achievements.
I have been to 7 finals, including ZDS and a final replay, in 17 years so I am eternally grateful to Steve Gibson for his vision all those years ago when the club nearly went out business.
Some of these new investors at clubs like Manchester City, Portsmouth, Birmingham City and even our friends up the road Newcastle United, would be highly delighted if they achieve the same.
Where I do take issue with the club is comparing us with Newcastle and Sunderland in terms of support. Come on Mr Lamb take a look at www.statistics.gov.uk. Middlesbrough's population 135K, Sunderland a massive 280K and poor old Newcastle 260K.
And for the club to be puzzled on why our near neighbours Sunderland are playing in near full houses take a look at their prices. For a catagory A match for an under 16 its's ã9, at Boro it ã17. For an under 22 at Sunderland it's ã20 (ã15 for a Cat B match), at Boro there are no consessions for an under 22 so it's the full whack which will set them back at least ã34.
The ã20 and ã15 for an under 22 is interesting. That would compete favouribly with some one who might be tempted to have a few pints down the local and watch the match on the telly.
Sunderland have pitched their prices to reflect the economic profile of the people in their catchment area. Boro have not and judging be the comments from the club, sadly they don't intend to.
Middlesbrough Football Club have come along way in a short time but they do not have a massive fan base so it's time to get real.
Ian
Phil and I are hoping - for once - that our team performance at The Boleyn Ground doesn't come a poor second to The Hammerettes!!
If you've ever seen The Hammerettes you'll know what I mean.
Club is out of touch with the fans with regards to ticket prices. They are still living in the world of 1997-1999 where they can charge what they like and be able to get the fans back. Fans now see through the club and realise they are just trying to make as much money they can from the fans.
And as lamb said you are either with us or against us. It is like they feel we should be privileged to be able to watch football.
The policy and comments on gibson on the team strip shows it is just about fleecing the fans. then keith lamb has the balls to tell us he is highly paid in a job most people would do for free.
To hear Keith Lamb saying "you are either with us or against us" makes me cringe, he's embarassing himself.
Why are Steve Gibson and Lamb so paranoid? Just start listening to the fans instead of being on the attack all the time, and along with the good football then there is more chance of the fans coming back.
Have I missed something on this whole Bernie issue? So he is a bit negative and likes a moan,don't we all? To hear KL talking it sounds like Bernie is to blame for the disapearence of 10,000 fans. In suggesting that he is saying people from round here are completely thick and hang on every word Bernie says.
Get a grip Gibbo, reduce the prices and try and keep KL from talking, he tries hard bless him, but he does suffer from foot in mouth syndrome does'nt he?
UP THE BORO
You only hear from the Big 2 when Boro have done well, rarely when things are not so good.
They led the country 10 years ago (BBC said, when Juninho, Ravanelli, and Emerson lined up against Liverpool on the first day of the season, at a still new Riverside, 'it's the only place to be' - not any more) but have failed to maintain promise by allowing Robbo and Big Mac too much scope. Who did this? The chairman (and Keith Lamb). So they should not pretend it has been success all the way.
But they fly the flag for the smaller club in unfashionable areas - only clubs in big urban areas seem to be 'progressing', and yet the attendances of many other clubs outside the 'big' clubs are falling too.
Boro are the only club in the premiership not in a major urban area, and they keep the spirit of football alive with their commitment to local youngsters.
The premiership standards are declining, too many players don't want to spoil their early retirement after 2 seasons on a ludicrous contract. Let's hope the new, realistic broom at the Boro can inject energy and speed - they've done it at Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, and the fabulous Arsenal.
But to pay today's prices to go and watch football in a wasteland (and that won't change any time soon) is expecting a lot. Praise the fans who have persevered - they are the best in the country.
What's this about "the only world class organization on Teesside"? Who's he kidding?
He's not exactly going to win friends and influence lapsed season ticket holders at Corus, Johnson Matthey, Avecia, AMEC, PD Ports, the list goes on ... is he?
Perhaps he would like to help put a more positive PR spin on some other aspects of Teesside other than the football club instead of insulting the major businesses that bring jobs to many of us and hence fans to his ticket office?
MFC is a small business that doesn't employ very many people and never will. They may be in the top 20 football teams in England but they're pretty far down the list of economic contributors to Teesside I would suggest. Some more humility KL please.
"Boro are the only club in the premiership not in a major urban area"
Teesside not a major urban area! Are you sure???
re Bryan Pringle
I am absolutely certain Bryan. And I've seen a fair bit of the world.
Middlesbrough is a small town in Britain, never mind Europe. But that's all the more reason to be Proud of what's been achieved in the area, not only by it's footballers. Be realistic and stop feeling sorry for yourselves.
Writers like Bryan Glanville have for 50 years commented about how Boro 'supporters' have destroyed local talent (I have the books), but that's not the case now.
So don't be like the local council and destroy all the old buildings that were well worth preserving, be realistic and proud of what's been achieved and what is achievable.
Help Gareth Southgate (who believes), but don't turn a deaf ear to Bernie, Mr Chairman. And get access and the wasteland fixed, as well as the pirate pubs.
Winning a few games would bring back the crowds. In other words, play "to win," not just "play not to lose"
I grew up within hearing distance of Ayresome Park and never missed a match till I moved here to the Pacific North West. I used to enjoy Bernie and Alli on Century via my computer, but would agree the BBC commentary is Rubbish!
The current blog theme has encapsulated the current situation at MFC.
In the summer (that is the wet weather before the season starts) I posted about people putting crosses on the grump list. On first reading of Lambs words it sounded reasonable, some areas were not covered but I didnt have an issue with what he said, some bits didnt agree with.
We are now disecting what he has said, we are taking themes and giving them a good thrashing. It shows a level of disatisfaction not seen for many a year - if ever.
In the past it was black humour that kept us going but since the bar (and the ability to extract money) was raised we expect better.
And that is MFC's problem, we are still fans but are not happy with the club. We are not engaged, we dont believe they are listening, some feel the club dont care about them.
I think they do care but have painted themselves into a corner by their words, actions and inactions. It is the clubs responsibility to sort it out, to communicate better, to draw the fans into what they are doing. Unless they do that they will struggle to get to 30000 plus each week, even so they may not reach that level again.
The fan has left the building!
in an article i read mark viduka gave keith lamb as one of the reasons he did not sign a new contract. was not it keith lamb who thought he got permission from the premier league to postpone the match with blackburn which cost us three points and our place?
As long as ã$money still dominates the future of our beautiful game I'll keep my hard earned ca$h in MY own pocket and ãlaugh my own way to the bank - because that's what Premiership FOOTBALL has become - a CON of the masses - feeding the pockets of clever and not so clever DEMI GODS who couldn't do a hards day work if they tried!
NON LEAUGUE footy is THE place to be - believe me - GO SEE FOR YOURSELF!
frm...you said Middlesbrough is a small town in Britain.. maybe, but Teesside is not so small and most definitely is a major urban area.
All of this "we are just a small town" and "small catchment area" nonsense that Boro fans use as an excuse for poor crowds is ridiculous and is typical of the small minded nature of many of the towns inhabitants these days including those that run the football club.
Why I dont bother watching Boro any more:
1.....Football is too expensive especially for families. Money can be better spent elsewhere other than subsidising some of the overpaid clowns who masquerade as footballers.
2.....Not allowed to enjoy yourself. ie No standing, No smoking, No letting off steam (alright then no swearing!) No falling asleep, Eyeballed and victimised by stewards if suits them, forced from ground after match despite paying MFC over the top money for watered down beer. Frowned at if you dare shout your support for Boro in 3/4 of the ground by the dreaded foam handed Sky brigade.
3.....Plastic atmosphere. Watching the johnny come lately sea lions happy clapping along to pigbag makes me cringe, as for that Chelsea Dagger, dont even go there.
4.....Trekking across a wasteland to a soulless meccano like stadium, often trekking back through narrow often waterlogged subways in a crush after a match
5.....Not being able to just turn up and pay at the gate if you feel like it. Lose the walk up fans and you are in deep doggy doo.
6.....Being patronised by the likes of Lamb certainly doesn't make me want to go out of my way to watch the Boro.
I agree wholeheartedly with points 2 and 3 above.
The club has become plastic, the atmosphere is fake and if you dare stand up or shout all the middle class and middle aged people (which seem to account for a large proportion of the crowd nowadays) cry into their flasks of camomile tea. The foam hands and posh squeals of the only song they know...'come on boro' is embarrassing!
I do not know of any of my old mates that go to the match any more - the clientele has changed and it has sucked the atmosphere out of the place.
The club also seems to have a small minded, small town attitude. Why is it constantly mentioned that we are a small town in Europe, especially as though Middlesbrough FC should represent Teesside and not just Middlesbrough.
The population of Teesside is around half a million - so we should have a better support than the likes of Blackburn and Bolton etc.
But Mr Lamb and Co. seem to like to think we are batting above our level. Well I disagree I think that Boro fans are entitled to success like any other team.
We shoudn't be patronised by Mr Lamb and co. saying that we will get the team that our support deserves. Mr Lamb you may not realise this but there are lots and I mean lots of Boro fans out there who want to go but just can't bring themselves to do it.
We are mocked by other clubs particularly Newcastle etc for being plastic - and do you know what? They are right!
Boro aren't taken seriously because they are small town minded. Selling shirts in only their own club shop stops potential supporters from around the country buying into the club - it also makes us seem like a first division club.
Also please get a serious shirt manufacturer like adidas, umbro or nike and not some cheapo kit that nobody wants to wear. Don't take us for fools - we will vote with our feet. I and thousands of others already have.
AV
Now that was a fair shout from Keith Lamb, because I personally was getting sick to death of Bernie SlavenâÂÂs negative attitude to our goals department for starters.
I actually introduced the word positive to many of your own Blogs, AV, when people were well into everything and anything, especially Gareth, before heâÂÂd even fastened his shoe laces.
Where are those fools now, who also pre-judged Mido before heâÂÂd even kicked a ball?
We now have a team which is the brightest that I have ever seen, which was impossible to stop, because Gareth is a winner.
Bernie Slaven is a nice guy and we all have our opinions, but for obvious reasons, some people must be careful how they address things, because echoes-echo!!!
However, when a team give 100%, every game, then the only negative is the whistle blowing.
Alastair Brownlee was a brilliant ambassador for the club, because his Red and White blood cells fed on positives.
What a proud and so very privileged CV to have earned.
Therefore, when Keith talks fondly about his days on the terraces, he should have a firm understanding of AlastairâÂÂs most private of thoughts in relationship to the commentary changing hands.
I do, because those same terraces were my home due to the fact that my heart only came alive on Saturday afternoons.
That said, we must now move on and get back into Europe under GarethâÂÂs leadership and surely a full house against Sunderland is now on.
I once told you that I had more positives in me AV, than you could count and a well established reasonâÂÅ has now added another few!!!!!
Hi AV
Now that the club have a fully computerised system to monitor season ticket holder purchase it would be possible for them to reward loyal fans easily by automatically calculating the length of time each fan has held a ticket and then freezing/reducing the price each year by a suitable percentage.
An initial 3 year "probationary" period say, could be followed by a 2 year price freeze and then in subsequent years the prices could be lowered systematically.
This gives the fan the incentive for maintaining their ticket. I'd include those fans who turn up to every home game (and keep their receipts) in this scheme too.
It was annoying that there was an advantage given to casual fans which wasn't available to those who had either paid at the beginning of the season or had attended all the previous matches.
It is obvious that the usual promise of "priority at Cup-Ties" can not be upheld if the stadia used to play the match is of a low capacity. Therefore some other way of incentivising the fans must be found.
I have also suggested to the club that they reward season ticket holders by allowing them free entry into some of the home Cup ties. Another way of encouraging season ticket holders.
Surely their marketing department isn't totally devoid of ploys to attract customers?
Regards
Pauline - Acklam.
Pauline
We have talked about some form of loyalty scheme for some time going back beyond the Carling Cup final.
There are some inherent difficulties. You live where I used to live in Acklam, I now live in Derby. Do we allocate travel miles to the scheme? What about the away games I visit?
What about people like John Powls who live in Reading and see the southern away games? What about the stubs from cup games? They did me no favours for the Carling cup.
The key thing is the database. Is it up to providing the information for marketing purposes? Does it exist for non season ticket sales?
On the pitch we are seeing good signs of progress. Off the pitch I am not so certain.
Re. the shirts. It seems the silly b*ggers at the other 19 Prem. clubs have missed a trick with the shirt selling lark, eh? Have they not realised they have let a fortune slip through their fingers by not selling exclusively through the club shop?
The white band may not be enshrined as the club kit from way-back-when but it is what distinguishes us and enforces our (much needed) sense of identity.
Oh and by the way, isn't that the Turkish teams national colour and didn't thousands of them want a shirt following the Tuncay capture?? The most telling aspect is that the fans wanted it but the club didn't listen.
We all know they need to sell shirts and see a change in kit as the driver for this. I buy 2 each season but not until I get my band back!
Dont alienate us MFC. Many will always keep the faith, me included, but the fact that many feel disenfranchised proves that the club is getting it wrong and more worryingly appears not to want to listen.
Sadly even though the club has grown so much compared to 1986 we still have the same people behind the scenes.
How many companies keep the same people at the top when you grow so big over 20 years. the club needs an outsider to come in and improve the PR and manage things behind the scenes better.
When high profile players leave there is always some kind of spat between the player and keith lamb
Bryan Pringle - you're missing the point entirely, Teesside is a small conurbation. Its size pales into insignificance when compared to the conurbations in the South East, West Midlands, North West and West Yorkshire. Its also significantly smaller then the conurbation further up the A19.
frm
Now you have brought up a very interesting point about how one becomes a legend.
There is one particular Radio show where we have three such people living under that cloak of mystery, but none qualify for such a gifted tag in my book.
However, it satisfies the ears of thousands of listeners, which is the main thing & is also an excellent voice for many other issues.
But they are not legends, they are ex- players.
Some ex-players most certainly are legends and I am certain those who post on these Blogs could enlighten many an ear?
I used to deliver Cliff MitchellâÂÂs newspapers once upon a time and if anyone could name a legend, then he was the one gentleman to ask.
In the archives of the Evening Gazette live many a legend, but I think the vast majority earned peanuts.
A separate subject on the blog but a longstanding one.
Once again Rugby has shown us the way. The England captain, Phil Vickery, has been cited for his outstretched leg pulling down the USA player in the Rugby World Cup and will be subject to a disciplinary tribunal within 48 hours. This is irrespective of what the ref has or has not seen.
Oh that our football authorities were similarly inclined towards justice and its application.
Mr Lamb
I didn't renew my season ticket this year, reason being not been able to afford to renew it. I've been a season ticket holder since we moved to the Riverside. I also started going to Ayresome Park when i was 12 (using my paper round money), one question for you:
Am i against the club now?
You wanted to identify us, so here i am, would love you to answer my question.
Ian - simple answer, football does not want to root out the cheats.
On another matter, all PL managers who have signed African players will be maoning come January about the African Nations Cup.
It's as if the tournament is devised by Santa as a nasty post Christmas suprise and not a long established competition.
AV please send the article on Mido potentially being missing for six weeks to GS and Keith Lamb.
Then come January neither can bemoan his loss.
Bernie is a pratt. I am a great fan of Mr lamb. There is nothing wrong with match prices. People need to put football before other things. Just miss a meal a day and put that towards a ticket
I am wondering which category i fall into, am I for or against the club?
Last season I attended 4 home games and 2 away games all with my son, I work shifts so cannot attend every game but chose to attend the ones I did, and chose not to attend the ones I was able too simply because i did not want to go!
the main reason being the price.
I have never been able to attend every home game since 1986 due to work constraints but was a Holgate regular from mid seventies to mid eighties and rarely if ever missed a home game.
With regard to the carling cup debate, yes we won a cup, yes it was at cardiff and yes we had an open top bus parade, but i was there with about 10 thousand others at the 3rd/4th rounds and you guessed could not get a ticket for the final, oh i tell a lie I was offered one in a pub for ã150 the day before which I declined.
If the carling cup was such a big deal where were the supporters in the early rounds and why did mac choose to play a reserve team at anfield in our defence of it?
Think boro have been in about 7 finals and all tickets have been snapped up quickly, I however have never had one, but i still class myself as a 'with us and not against us'.
Still the prawn sandwich brigade all had a good day out at cardiff many true supporters who couldent get there watched it on telly.
the club don't want you chris, you are too much hassle and too time consuming to encourage to go to games. they don't need or want your money.
AV - As with other topics discussed on these pages, many opinions, views and idea's have been put forward.
As a primo journo, when are you going to have your interview with Mr Lamb?
You could be the voice of the people.
Never Happy
The same goes for all overseas players. We had the missing Aussies. Other clubs had South Americans. As you say, the same old moan will go up from all the sundry managers.
By the same token the international FA's are culpable because of the need to generate income from friendlies. In our case to pay for Wembley. The inference from some international managers is that they would rather have three days together as a squad than play a match after half a days training.
The other scenario is that if there were no international matches we know from experience that given any free time the top clubs fly half way round the world for 'warm weather training' and play friendlies against other top clubs. Oddly enough these take place in locations where the clubs are trying to develop their overseas profile. The same would happen if FA Cup replays were abandoned.
No sympathy from this quarter.
KL and SG could do with coming onto this blogg and reading some of the posts, then they can see why people are staying away.
They don't understand, as the papers keep saying, why the supporters are absent, well if they came on here, maybe they woudl be enlightened and actually devise a way of attracting back the faithfull.
Sad that I was a regular at Ayresome int he 70's and 80's, yet rarely take the kids now as too expensive and all too plastic.
Prawn Sandwiches away!!
maybe the club does not want the likes of me supporting them (go to a few games a season type!!) but going back to the days when i supported the team week in week out at ayresome park, through thin and thinner.
i would add that my life was geared around MFC, the highlight of my life was going to the game when they were played almost exclusively at 3pm on saturdays.
the sight of my hero david armstrong terrorising defenders as he tore down the left wing, and the clenched fist of tony mcandrew given to any player who dare not give 100 percent, bernie climbing the holgate fence after another goal and the great defenders, craggsy, stuey boam, spraggs and later mogga and pally...........happy days
we may not have any silverware to show but they were my greatest days as a boro fan when you went to the game and knew the players would give there all and not a prawn sandwich in sight!!!
Popalu, the club is clueless on what the general feeling of fans is. GS lives near Harrogate so won't know. The players only go to Middlesbrough once every 2 weeks for a match. Most of the time they spend their time at the training ground in Darlington our at home about 50 miles from Middlesbrough.
How often do you see the players, management and senior management out and about in the town and getting a general feel from the fans? they don't so no way can they gauge the mood.
I have read Keith lambs comments and most of it was well stated, I have also been priviliaged to hear the crap that comes out of the mouth of a so called boro hero.
To me the hero's are the guys, gals and children that go to the boro and support their team, yeah they moan after a game and yet the are there the next week, cheering and shouting their hearts out.
Many years ago I took my newly wedded wife to her first game and she loved it, became a firm fan of Willi Wigham and Balarina Gates, as she used to call him, but she always wanted to return the next game even when the fog was so thick you could not see the holgate end.
Yeah we listen to Bernie Slaven and yes his initials are what he speaks in my opinion, but then that is my opinion, but I do not get paid for talking a load of dribble and being negative about a game that supported me in the past.
I may not go to the matches now,as I am what is call and overseas supporter, but to me there will never be another club like the Boro, and I have supported them since I was five and went to see Mannion play. Now there was a player, but did he ever run the club down publicly? I do not think so.
I used to be there with my pork pie and a cup of bovril sat on the wall behind the goal in the linthorpe end every Saturday, loving it, and still would if I could.
One thing that should be made clear is that it is just his opinion and not the opinion of a knowledgeable football manager, but a has been an expert (true definition of an expert is: ex = has been,(s)pert = drip under pressure).
This is 2007 not 1986 times change and like any business in todays money mad world prices will go up majority of the time.
Football is a business like any other and every club management in the country have to try and make the cost weigh up. We all want to see the best players and this is only possible if the club can afford to do so in terms of getting the correct balance of income through the gates and revenue from TV & merchandise ETC.
We are not at Ayresome park any more which was a great place for memories, we are at an allseater multi million pound stadium which alone takes a massive investment in order to maintain its upkeep.
I congratulate SG & KL for signing high quality players and paying extremly high salaries in order to make this small club stay in the premiership and try and compete with the big clubs in europe. Well done to SG & KL for freezing the price of tickets again.
The average fan does not care about the cost to run a footabll club but they are always quick to complain about the way the club is run in terms of the cost of tickets and the price of shirts.
Yes these are expensive but the profit and loss sheet at the end of the financial year have to be accounted for. I can guarantee that SG gets no financial return from the club.
If fans would like to continue complaining that is fine but please bear in mind the cost to run a multi million pound black hole.
Any fan that belives they can do better and let all fans in free, get the best players in the world and win all competions, please mount a financial takeover for the club and prove that it is easy to run a premiership football club.
I will continue to go and support the boro and next time or if we get to the final and I see all the fans complaining that they could not get a ticket and have been going all their lives, I will wander have they been the people complaining.
Listening to all morons that used to phoned up Century FM and struggle to string a sentence together and these are the people that are "THICK" and have no clue on how businesses operate, let alone how to speak english.
Andrew, do you have any idea how much money the club recieve per season. 10 mill on season tickets alone, then anything between 30-50 million from the Premier league. Then there's the money from club shop sales and matchday sales, so are you honestly telling me that they are right not the reduce ticket prices to try and fill the stadium? With those kind of figures there is more coming in than going out.
Slaven's self-conferred 'legendary' status has always mystified me.
I remember well one very dank Tuesday evening at Plough Lane for a League Cup Tie against Wimbledon. We were seated close to the Boro bench and Colin Cooper broke up the left wing sending over a nice looking ball in Slaven's direction. Slaven ducked and the ball ran into touch on the right side.
The crowd was meagre, yes even worse than the Riverside, some 3000, of which 1500 were Boro fans, and you could hear a pin drop when the Boro fans stopped singing. Exasperated, Cooper turned to Rioch on the best and screamed, to our great hilarity, "'e's ******' useless, 'im!" Now that's legendary...
GUZI, When the wage bill each season is in the region of 40 million pounds then I take my hat off to the club to keep ticket prices then same.The club also has massive spending on transfers compared to chelsea it is nothing but it is very high.
Maybe you should launch a takeover bid for the club and drop the ticket prices and make yourself bankrupt.
When we are relegated because we could not afford good players, the question will be asked because the "new chairman" (Yourself) has lowered the price of tickets and the fans are happier because they pay less but we cant afford players and there wages so we have to buy sub standard players.
AV: How much have we lost finacially over the past season's or has it been a slight profit?
Andrew
**AV writes: Very few clubs make a profit and most make substantial losses. Boro are lucky in that they are part of the Bulkhaul empire and any operating losses can be offset against tax in the other areas of the comapny that do make a profit. It is a complex structure but a Godsend to Boro because the losses are absorbed.
If they were to stand alone I woudl expect the losses to be fairly large. The gate income is ã8m and until this season Sky TV income around the ã18-22m mark. Even added together that barely covers the wage bill.
That means transfers, the academy, the scouting network and the running costs of the club (travel, hotels, admin etc) have to be funded by borrowing.
Think of the net transfer spend over the last decade and that is about the figure Boro would be in debt right now without Gibson and Bulkhaul.
Just a suggestion to get more "noise" into the stadium why not invite a group of different local schools kids to the games for a "job lot" price.
ok then, lets look forward to the rest of the season seeing a load of empty seats at the stadium. What's better, empty seats and no money or a full stadium from discounted prices, not a hard answer is it?